Made a weird discovery: on the Legacy models of delay and Reverb in the Helix, for a 50% mix, the mix knob needs to be at 75%, which explains why the Delay and Reverb were nowhere near as loud as when I tried equivalent settings in the Fractal world...The non-legacy models are not like this!
My immediate thought was that the mix parameter must mean different things in the different units and likely the gain staging is different, which is why you’re getting such wildly different results. The reverb block in particular in the Fractal has its own “mix law” that behaves differently than other blocks.
From Ben Adrian: Some of the legacy delays work differently. There was a different methodology before HD500, I believe (heck, it might even be in HD500, I don't have one on hand to check). In Helix, 0-50% keeps the dry level at unity gain and brings up the wet level. 51-100 keeps the wet level at the same volume as 50%, and turns down the dry. In many earlier delays, 0-100 % on the mix knob brings up the wet level. The dry level stays at unity gain until late on the travel, like 80-87%, and then quickly turns down. My guess is that at the time, most guitarists either wanted to adjust the delay level while leaving the dry level at unity (most vintage pedals work this way), or they wanted a full wet signal for special effects or parallel routing. This implementation give a finer amount of wet-level adjustment. I've not met many guitarists that would tell me, "when I turn on my delay I want to lose about 3dB of my dry signal but keep the repeats at unity gain." I can see how the old way makes sense for 99% of users. However, now we have a Level control on every delay that affects both wet and dry volumes. So now the Mix control balances wet to dry, and the Level can make any adjustments for when a player things there is too much or too little overall level when engaging the effect.
I totally agree with the "low mids scooped" Fractal tones you mention, JC, those frequencies move a lot more air when playing and makes the player feel the "amp in the room" feeling but, for me, those frequencies are useless in the context of a band mix, so I don't see the point to use those tones like that, other than "bedroom solo playing enjoyment". So, removing this aspect form the equation, I feel both units are awesome and gives you several options to sound great. Good vid, as always, buddy! Cheers!
I have a FM3 and an HX Stomp XL. I would happy with either. However, on the FM3, I can assemble an amp, cab, reverb block chain from scratch and it’ll sound great with no tweaking. On the Stomp, I need to tweak quite a bit to get it dialed in. Yes, the Fractal presets are better (in general)…but creating a patch from scratch is far easier. But, the interface on the FM3 is difficult to navigate. While I’m getting better at the FM3, the Stomp is super easy to use. With regard to the gigging experience, the Stomp XL is a complete all in one modeler (like a helix or LT) whereas you need to add a couple of $20 external switches to make the FM3 as gig friendly.
Thank you John for , as always, a thoughtful and interesting video. I've owned the Line 6 Helix Floor, LT and HX Stomp, as well as an Axe FX3 and an FM3. As much as I wanted to prefer the Fractal stuff (everyone KNOWS it's superior - and I spent a lot more on it - it HAS to be superior!), I find I prefer the Helix LT to all others. First the switching systems. Even with an added FC-6 and Mission pedal (and for gigging, I hate to add additional pieces), Fractal's switching system can be vexing. You have one set of switches for all presets, unless you do per-presets, etc. If you change the switching for one preferred preset, you may well inadvertently mess up a hundred others. It becomes a huge rabbit hole, drawing out switch setup strategies and still being frustrated in the end. Maybe it's just me, but I think the switches should just be saved with the presets. Secondly, the effects. Everyone knows Fractal is better. Except I just can't get them to sound as natural. Helix's pedal compressors sound and feel like my pedal compressors. The Fractals for me, do not. And the Timmys. Nothing I do on my Fractals will make the Timmys respond and sound like my beloved real v2 Timmy. The Helix Teemah (dumb name) absolutely nails it. Same with Delays. The Fractals have incredibly beautiful sounding delays. But even with endless tweaking, I just can't get the feedback/runaway decays to sound/act like a real tape unit. The Helix Transistor Tape nails it with little work. I also like to use these units as an effects only pedalboard in front of a tube amp - the Helix to me works endlessly better in this regard. The Helix effects sound way more natural to me as stomp boxes into an amp. And the size, weight, form factor and integrated pedal make the LT perfect in this regard, even over the Floor. To get the equivalent, I'd need an FM3, FC6 and Pedal; or a much bigger, heavier FM9, and STILL need an outboard pedal. For amps - preferring IRs on both, I find them equivalent, especially for the clean to crunch Fender and Vox sounds I prefer. Other than a very few, I find the factory presets unsatisfactory on both units. I love Fractal. They seem like much more serious, professional units. And as a 40 year sound designer/educator I like Fractal's deep tweakability (though a serious rabbit hole) and especially, LOVE their extensive professional metering throughout - Helix needs that. . . but in the end, I honestly prefer Helix. Thanks again John. You always have great insights. Sorry for the too long response! :)
I have the HELIX Floor & the FM3 w/ FC6. I much prefer the HELIX over the FM3. I think it way easier to edit live & just overall easiest to get sounding great. I preferred the sounds from the HELIX in your demo. Great video btw.
Your call about the mix is spot on @John Nathan Cordy I have a theory that fractal deliberately made their amp/cabs sound like they are behind you by cutting some highs and adding frequencies that give that “amp in the room” sound. It will please guitarists, who like those frequencies, but all of it will be cut at the mixer both live and in the studio. Worst case, the sound engineer will only have a high-pass on you channel and he will have no choice but cut aggressively so you don’t mud up the mix.
When I first got my HX Stomp, I found many of the Presets to be overly bright. I figured out that the culprit was usually the Cab Mic being a single SM57. When I switched that to the Ribbon 121 (Royer), the bulk of my problems disappeared. I recently watched a Rick Beato where he demonstrated the classic way of micing a real guitar Cab with an SM57 and Royer 121 Ribbon mic. I was surprised at how low the SM57 was in the mix, and how dominant the Royer 121 was. Did you compare the Mics used in the Fractal vs Line 6 comparison - Mic type, distance from speakers, etc.? Just curious.
Sm57 has a huge hump at 6k and then one at 8.5k, as well as an aggressive high-pass at 200. Engineers have chosen to mic cabs in and out of the studio with the 57 because it sits well in the mix, not because guitarists like the sound.
The Fractal presets you played sound like there's a blanket over the cab (compared to the Helix presets) - or you're standing way down the hall. Not really my preference - unless you wanted to get some of that Eric Johnson lead thing.
As a guitarist and soundman the Helix sounded more mix friendly. Once a keyboard player starts and bass guitar comes in the mids from the Fractal are going to get lost in the mix. That being said I'm perfectly happy with my Helix floor but I'd love to get my hands on an FM9.
To my ears the Helix still retained the Strat sounds but the FM3 could have been anything with humbuckers almost. Is that good or bad depends on what you like, personally that’s what I go for, to still hear the characteristics of the type of guitar your playing.
Yes, I agree. Fractal does tend to get lower notes. However, you must have to adjust everything. The good thing is, you can make Fractal to copy anything you want - whether your amp OR in your dream-sound. Last year, I also bought the flagship, Helix. Without telling everything, I returned mine within a week.😅
The helix is a really great unit. I’ve owned the Helix, HX Stomp, and HX Effects. All solid! I’ve also owned an axefx3, fm3, and now an fm9. If it’s just tone, I’ve preferred the fractal in every aspect. Amps, cabs, effects. I see people argue the ease of use thing a lot. Both are easy to use, but the fractal stuff takes longer to learn. Not really a problem to me because everything has some learning curve and better tone is more important than a few extra hours of learning how to use it. All in all, the fm9 is my favorite of all of them. But I’d buy an HX stomp over an fm3. Mainly because neither can really replace a full board, at least in the way I would like to. I would want pedals with either, and the HX stomp is more convenient in that sense. If I’m going all in one, fractal FM9 everyday of the week.
I have about $2k- do you recommend a FM9? I am good at learning complicated things- Engineering major. I just receive my $400 Ampero II (last night) which sounds amazing and the touchscreen is bright, responsive- even fun. I am however so far finding it near impossible to switch presets easily with 3 buttons. I bet the FM3 would also be annoying in that regard- too much tap dancing and menu diving- no thanks. Hotone clearly did not prioritize usability. Heck, my 10 year old zoom pedal was easier. On the Ampero, you have to touch the screen, find the preset on an unorganized list, etc. Also, I cannot change guitar tones when I overdub. That is a deal breaker. Some songs require it. I assume I will be able to do this on the FM9- something to do with assigning a footswitch inside a scene?
Thank you for the comparison. I am trying to decide between a Fractal FM3 and HX Stomp XL. My only use is for live performance in a cover band. I currently use a Boss ME50 directly into a Behringer X32 mixer. It's a basic setup but actually works pretty good for 10 years now. I can get guitar sounds that mimic China Grove, Brass in Pocket, Eagles, Bon Jovi, REO, etc, etc. I come from live mic'd amps and the Boss has always had a bit of a fizzy sound. Reminds me of when I plugged an Electro-Harmonix Big Muff into my dads stereo as a kid. Any recommendations on which unit will be able to better produce these types of cover songs?
Hey. I’m sure you’ve made a decision by now but I came from Line 6 world (had a helix and a stomp) and then tried a quad cortex briefly before finally getting an fm3. It’s killer.
If I was mixing those two tones on a recording, I'd have to high-pass the shit out of the Fractal and boost a ton of midrange to get it to sit well. It's far too bass-heavy for practical use as is. The Helix sounds more immediately usable to me as a sound engineer.
It's pretty normal to expect different manufacturers would scale some parameters differently, ESPECIALLY something like dry-wet mix for an effect. There are different scaling curves that can be used. IMHO Helix sounded way more natural at 45% mix as you said, whereas Fractal sounded more like 70-something % instead. This is why (of course!) it's better to tweak things by ear rather than matching numbers :)
Mostly major scale here, I'm not thinking of modes unless I need to think of modes (most of the time modal analysis wouldn't be necessary in my playing)
The tones are not sounding the same. Not just the low end, but I guess it is distortion, compression, EQ along the whole palette of frequencies, it has to be matched. I dont think it is doable without headphones and so much delay/ reverb.
Been using a Helix for 6 years now. Sounds OK but with a lot of tweaking. In every video that I see here on RUclips the Fractal always sounds much better. I mean, even the stock presets sound great. Love the helix functionality but man, I’m about to buy the FM3 and try it myself.
a lot of these reviews are actually paid for my the manufactures , I have learned that they hard way . I recommend take these with a pinch of salt and always trying it yourself in store and then choose rather then taking these reviews at word.
@@profd65 I wasn't commenting on the sounds in this video. I was referring to my own experience having owned both the Helix and the Fractal. In my experience the Fractal sounded heaps better.
Question for the audience - if someone did not want to build or tweak: which one has the 'best' (whatever that means) presets/snapshots out of the box? I have a hard time learning menus - I sold my TimeLine for this very reason.
If you don’t want to build your own tones get a tube amp lol they are the definition of plug n play. Unfortunately once you enter the modelling world you have to be willing to really dive into the programming to get ‘your’ sound
If you want plug in play for a full unit, it’s not gonna happen easily. The Line 6 POD GO is probably the simplest plug n play unit. However if you want to use a pedalboard, get a Strymon Iridium or a UA Dream.
In your de-"fence" Sir Cordy...operatives are "fun" "enjoyment" and more playing time - less thwacking away at settings and post mix. Just my 2p Happy Holidays =]]
I prefer Fractals modeling and feel. I've played the Helix quite a bit, but never wanted one. They do feel different to me too and have distinctive tonal qualities. Since there processing and modeling is different, I don't know why you would frustrate yourself if you do, trying to set the parameters the same and looking for them to sound and react the same. I was going to buy an FM9 but there delayed because of shortages into next year and at this point I wonder if I will get for a while. My FM3 does almost everything I need. The only sacrifice is it's live aspect since it doesn't let me have the higher res reverbs. But there still good normal. And it doesn't do dual amp chains either, but I can get over it. And for recording, I also use Amplitube 5 Max which lets me do 3 amp chains if I want.
I have had Helix products before and I am aware they have improved greatly. Their pricing model and market access is worthy of consideration. That being said, the Fractal just sounds more full, substantial to my ear. If I want to back off on the "meat" in the sound for low and mid in the Fractal, getting closer to the Helix, I would presume that's doable? I had a Boss GT-1000 core and returned it for the same reason as the helix sound I found to be somehow "thin" overall. Am I a Fractal guy then?
Sorry to zombie comment on an old video, not sure if you'll see this. I also switched back to stomp for a variety of reasons. Have you ever or since found an EQ block or other solution that gets it really close in terms of the low end and the sizzle?
ahh, this is going to end well... As a stomp fanboy, I think the Matchless is much more inspiring to play in the fractal world. Probably that mid heavy tone makes my headphones happy. Solid video, not sure how you pull these off without triggering an insurrection. Almost anyone else walking the line between modeling factions would have gotten lynched by now.
Mind you, when you think that this model should in theory sound like a Vox....? To me the vox characteristics aren't really there in the fractal model?
@@johnnathancordy honestly, now after listening to both videos, I think you are right. The helix sounds much closer to dan's dc-30. The fractal add too much low mids and loses some of the chime. Of course, different settings, mics, guitar, etc...
@@john808welk What we have to remember is both companies modelled different amps And listening to guitar tones over the compressed RUclips is no way to compare I’ll accept anyones opinion especially JC ! We all hear things differently But this is a helix focussed channel Go and have a listen to Leon Todd If he can’t show you the sound no one can 🤪🎸❤️
@@lukather1 just a friendly PSA about youtube compression, the audio in the video is using an opus (251) codec, which is newer and higher quality than the mp3 codec which we have all been listening to forever. Even next to an unadulterated lossless wav file, the differences would be nearly indistinguishable. Had the fm9, love the tones there, just didn't work for me as an all in one. I'm just hoping us helix and fractal nerds can coexist! Cheers
I think Fractal sounds better “out of the box”, simply because they dial in their factory presets better. That said, one can dial in either to sound stellar, or like ass. I a/b’d an fm3 against my Helix when they came out. Kept the Helix.
I had a Helix HX stomp and could not get good high gain tones out. For cleans it was nice though. But high gain it was awful. The FM3? I bought that and I don’t need to spend 3 hours getting a high gain tone. Like in the real world with my EVH 5150 100 and 50 it’s just tube screamer and amp. In the fm3, Sounds the same! So easy to set up!
And I thought that I would like Fractal… to my ears, Helix sounds more open and clear. That low end will be missed in the mix anyway. Happy owner of Helix LT for almost five years now!!!!
The difference other than what you said about mids and lows, is the Pick attack of each unit. If the goal is allan holdworth no or minimal pick attack the Fractal is your Animal. The difference hits me like a Brick, I would be wondering how is the Fractal getting such a more Rounded off Pick attack. I bet the new Dyna Cabs, for fractal, and of course the new Cabs update for Helix changed some of this. I bet microphone type and or placements are the Real Answer in this Video.
Just to my ears, the Fractal seems to have more "depth" (low end?) or "meat" to the tone. I appreciate the effort John has put into exampling this. The Line 6 (like the Boss GT 100 Core I tried seem) both feel feel 'thinner' to me. Yes the Fractal is more complicated to edit but then the presets tend to sound better right out the box to me. The Line is less 'detailed'? in the editing process and seems very 'editable' but then it seems more 'necessary' to get out of the thinner sound that to me plagues all the out of the box Line 6 presets. I wonder, any thoughts?, might it be easier to get towards the Line 6 sound from a Fractal than a Fractal sound for a Line 6? Of course John makes everything sound good and deceptively 'easy'. What a freakin' awesome left hand :P
Hey John, your guitar demo videos are so good! I agree with your observations, understandably -- one can hear what you're saying in your difference comments is true. Personally though, I have a preference for the hi-fi clarity of the Line 6 lead tones -- especially good for recording I would assume! I could imagine however, heavy-rock guitarists would prefer the heavy-thicker tones of the Fractal for loud guitar band based performance gigs. Enjoy your Christmas weekend in the UK muso-buddy. Cheers, Gaz ... from the large island down under! ;-).
why would two different companies offer two different 'standard' marshall (marshall as just one example ) amps and say each of them sound like marshall (authentic), but sound so different (times however many amps are offered)? is it the rich fool companies offering or the poor fool purchasers buying? and thanks JC for the education.
I think the thing is particularly Line 6 have some pretty old and weird Marshall Amps - in particular the Plexi and the JTM 50 are not exactly textbook examples (transitional models). Probably with more modern amps they're likely to be closer as the circuits are more standardised?
I played both. Fractal is easily better but needs an updated UI badly. Line6 has a better UI but without a ton of tweaking, it does not sound so great. Has potential but out of the box, my FM9 sings. I am not a pro so I can't speak about ease of use for on stage. Probably Line6 would win there. Switches on the LT I played today seemed cheap. Chassis is a tank. Many patches sounded fizzy and the same. Not one effect blew me away. On the FM9 most effects blow me away. Both have pros and cons but for tone, it's Fractal. Everyone knows this.
Since I'm a dedicated Helix player & have actually never played a Fractal, I'm gonna bow out of the 'which is better' debate, because I'm unfamiliar with Fractal and so would perhsps be biased. And anyway, the whole binary thinking 'either/or but never both,' thing is pointless. So, even having never played on a Fractal, I immediately surmised that your first solo was the Fractal. What I noticed is, the Helix transmits more of the essential tone of your guitar than Fractal does; the Fractal seems to impose more of its own tonal quality onto your guitar This is not to say the Fractal sucks & Helix rules. The Fractal may make you sound a bit more homogenous, but it does so by making your lead tone turn straight into butter ( as in _BUTTAH! It was BUTTAH_ 🤣😅😂😹). I can get 'buttah' out of the Helix too, but the Fractal seems to have it almost as default. I'm not gonna sell my Helix, but I do like some of the Fractal tones, so where's the law against having both?
Fractal sucks at getting new their releases into peoples’ hands. By the time they deliver the last orders, they come out with their “next best thing” not too long after.
I’ve had fractal products for 8 years and have had a helix rack for 2 years I’m going back to fractal - FM9 due - I really don’t understand how anyone can compare the effects in these units ! Does anyone actually like the sliders in an helix ? They are so frustrating! John if your saying you hear and feel no difference in amp and effects Let me know ? 🤪😎🎸❤️ I think I could give at least 15 reasons
Made a weird discovery: on the Legacy models of delay and Reverb in the Helix, for a 50% mix, the mix knob needs to be at 75%, which explains why the Delay and Reverb were nowhere near as loud as when I tried equivalent settings in the Fractal world...The non-legacy models are not like this!
My immediate thought was that the mix parameter must mean different things in the different units and likely the gain staging is different, which is why you’re getting such wildly different results. The reverb block in particular in the Fractal has its own “mix law” that behaves differently than other blocks.
From Ben Adrian:
Some of the legacy delays work differently. There was a different methodology before HD500, I believe (heck, it might even be in HD500, I don't have one on hand to check).
In Helix, 0-50% keeps the dry level at unity gain and brings up the wet level. 51-100 keeps the wet level at the same volume as 50%, and turns down the dry.
In many earlier delays, 0-100 % on the mix knob brings up the wet level. The dry level stays at unity gain until late on the travel, like 80-87%, and then quickly turns down.
My guess is that at the time, most guitarists either wanted to adjust the delay level while leaving the dry level at unity (most vintage pedals work this way), or they wanted a full wet signal for special effects or parallel routing. This implementation give a finer amount of wet-level adjustment.
I've not met many guitarists that would tell me, "when I turn on my delay I want to lose about 3dB of my dry signal but keep the repeats at unity gain." I can see how the old way makes sense for 99% of users. However, now we have a Level control on every delay that affects both wet and dry volumes. So now the Mix control balances wet to dry, and the Level can make any adjustments for when a player things there is too much or too little overall level when engaging the effect.
Your riffs and runs are so thoughtful and rich musically. That is rare to come by when watching guitarists demo equipment.
agreed, plays nicely
I totally agree with the "low mids scooped" Fractal tones you mention, JC, those frequencies move a lot more air when playing and makes the player feel the "amp in the room" feeling but, for me, those frequencies are useless in the context of a band mix, so I don't see the point to use those tones like that, other than "bedroom solo playing enjoyment". So, removing this aspect form the equation, I feel both units are awesome and gives you several options to sound great. Good vid, as always, buddy! Cheers!
Спасибо за ценное дополнение к этому видео, я как раз выбираю между этими двумя моделями.
I have a FM3 and an HX Stomp XL. I would happy with either. However, on the FM3, I can assemble an amp, cab, reverb block chain from scratch and it’ll sound great with no tweaking. On the Stomp, I need to tweak quite a bit to get it dialed in. Yes, the Fractal presets are better (in general)…but creating a patch from scratch is far easier. But, the interface on the FM3 is difficult to navigate. While I’m getting better at the FM3, the Stomp is super easy to use. With regard to the gigging experience, the Stomp XL is a complete all in one modeler (like a helix or LT) whereas you need to add a couple of $20 external switches to make the FM3 as gig friendly.
Thank you John for , as always, a thoughtful and interesting video. I've owned the Line 6 Helix Floor, LT and HX Stomp, as well as an Axe FX3 and an FM3. As much as I wanted to prefer the Fractal stuff (everyone KNOWS it's superior - and I spent a lot more on it - it HAS to be superior!), I find I prefer the Helix LT to all others. First the switching systems. Even with an added FC-6 and Mission pedal (and for gigging, I hate to add additional pieces), Fractal's switching system can be vexing. You have one set of switches for all presets, unless you do per-presets, etc. If you change the switching for one preferred preset, you may well inadvertently mess up a hundred others. It becomes a huge rabbit hole, drawing out switch setup strategies and still being frustrated in the end. Maybe it's just me, but I think the switches should just be saved with the presets. Secondly, the effects. Everyone knows Fractal is better. Except I just can't get them to sound as natural. Helix's pedal compressors sound and feel like my pedal compressors. The Fractals for me, do not. And the Timmys. Nothing I do on my Fractals will make the Timmys respond and sound like my beloved real v2 Timmy. The Helix Teemah (dumb name) absolutely nails it. Same with Delays. The Fractals have incredibly beautiful sounding delays. But even with endless tweaking, I just can't get the feedback/runaway decays to sound/act like a real tape unit. The Helix Transistor Tape nails it with little work. I also like to use these units as an effects only pedalboard in front of a tube amp - the Helix to me works endlessly better in this regard. The Helix effects sound way more natural to me as stomp boxes into an amp. And the size, weight, form factor and integrated pedal make the LT perfect in this regard, even over the Floor. To get the equivalent, I'd need an FM3, FC6 and Pedal; or a much bigger, heavier FM9, and STILL need an outboard pedal. For amps - preferring IRs on both, I find them equivalent, especially for the clean to crunch Fender and Vox sounds I prefer. Other than a very few, I find the factory presets unsatisfactory on both units. I love Fractal. They seem like much more serious, professional units. And as a 40 year sound designer/educator I like Fractal's deep tweakability (though a serious rabbit hole) and especially, LOVE their extensive professional metering throughout - Helix needs that. . . but in the end, I honestly prefer Helix. Thanks again John. You always have great insights. Sorry for the too long response! :)
Interesting to hear that you're going (somewhat) against the grain!
what modeler do you recommend- $2k ish budget? You know a lot! Thanks for sharing.
@@MOAB-UT Axe Fx 4
@@arsentoplak2635
🤣
You are wrong. Fractal is far better. I bought a FM9- blows away anything Line6.
I have the HELIX Floor & the FM3 w/ FC6. I much prefer the HELIX over the FM3. I think it way easier to edit live & just overall easiest to get sounding great. I preferred the sounds from the HELIX in your demo. Great video btw.
Your call about the mix is spot on @John Nathan Cordy
I have a theory that fractal deliberately made their amp/cabs sound like they are behind you by cutting some highs and adding frequencies that give that “amp in the room” sound. It will please guitarists, who like those frequencies, but all of it will be cut at the mixer both live and in the studio. Worst case, the sound engineer will only have a high-pass on you channel and he will have no choice but cut aggressively so you don’t mud up the mix.
I play axe FX III mainly and use a board with stomp as backup. But I can't unhear the line 6 "sizzle" on everything...
Always love how great players have so little left and right hand movement when playing.
When I first got my HX Stomp, I found many of the Presets to be overly bright. I figured out that the culprit was usually the Cab Mic being a single SM57. When I switched that to the Ribbon 121 (Royer), the bulk of my problems disappeared.
I recently watched a Rick Beato where he demonstrated the classic way of micing a real guitar Cab with an SM57 and Royer 121 Ribbon mic. I was surprised at how low the SM57 was in the mix, and how dominant the Royer 121 was.
Did you compare the Mics used in the Fractal vs Line 6 comparison - Mic type, distance from speakers, etc.? Just curious.
Nah I was using an IR for both instead. But yeh on the helix the Ribbon 4038 is a decent shortcut to way more bottom end!
John were you using the helix ribbon mic during these comparisons?
Sm57 has a huge hump at 6k and then one at 8.5k, as well as an aggressive high-pass at 200. Engineers have chosen to mic cabs in and out of the studio with the 57 because it sits well in the mix, not because guitarists like the sound.
These are really valuable comments.
The Fractal presets you played sound like there's a blanket over the cab (compared to the Helix presets) - or you're standing way down the hall. Not really my preference - unless you wanted to get some of that Eric Johnson lead thing.
As a guitarist and soundman the Helix sounded more mix friendly. Once a keyboard player starts and bass guitar comes in the mids from the Fractal are going to get lost in the mix. That being said I'm perfectly happy with my Helix floor but I'd love to get my hands on an FM9.
Very interesting listening to you doing your scale exercises
Glad you found it interesting Anthony. Good ears on you
To my ears the Helix still retained the Strat sounds but the FM3 could have been anything with humbuckers almost. Is that good or bad depends on what you like, personally that’s what I go for, to still hear the characteristics of the type of guitar your playing.
What is the name of the fractal preset you used? Is it in the fractal folder? Very fair comparison.
I’m thinking about downsizing from fractal to helix stomp for my uses. What are those scales you’re playing at the start? Sound great. Any tabs?
Have a Xmas break John 😘😘🎅
Yes, I agree. Fractal does tend to get lower notes. However, you must have to adjust everything. The good thing is, you can make Fractal to copy anything you want - whether your amp OR in your dream-sound. Last year, I also bought the flagship, Helix. Without telling everything, I returned mine within a week.😅
The helix is a really great unit. I’ve owned the Helix, HX Stomp, and HX Effects. All solid! I’ve also owned an axefx3, fm3, and now an fm9. If it’s just tone, I’ve preferred the fractal in every aspect. Amps, cabs, effects. I see people argue the ease of use thing a lot. Both are easy to use, but the fractal stuff takes longer to learn. Not really a problem to me because everything has some learning curve and better tone is more important than a few extra hours of learning how to use it.
All in all, the fm9 is my favorite of all of them. But I’d buy an HX stomp over an fm3. Mainly because neither can really replace a full board, at least in the way I would like to. I would want pedals with either, and the HX stomp is more convenient in that sense.
If I’m going all in one, fractal FM9 everyday of the week.
I have about $2k- do you recommend a FM9? I am good at learning complicated things- Engineering major. I just receive my $400 Ampero II (last night) which sounds amazing and the touchscreen is bright, responsive- even fun. I am however so far finding it near impossible to switch presets easily with 3 buttons. I bet the FM3 would also be annoying in that regard- too much tap dancing and menu diving- no thanks. Hotone clearly did not prioritize usability. Heck, my 10 year old zoom pedal was easier. On the Ampero, you have to touch the screen, find the preset on an unorganized list, etc. Also, I cannot change guitar tones when I overdub. That is a deal breaker. Some songs require it. I assume I will be able to do this on the FM9- something to do with assigning a footswitch inside a scene?
@@MOAB-UT100% man go with fractal all the way
Thank you for the comparison. I am trying to decide between a Fractal FM3 and HX Stomp XL. My only use is for live performance in a cover band. I currently use a Boss ME50 directly into a Behringer X32 mixer. It's a basic setup but actually works pretty good for 10 years now. I can get guitar sounds that mimic China Grove, Brass in Pocket, Eagles, Bon Jovi, REO, etc, etc. I come from live mic'd amps and the Boss has always had a bit of a fizzy sound. Reminds me of when I plugged an Electro-Harmonix Big Muff into my dads stereo as a kid. Any recommendations on which unit will be able to better produce these types of cover songs?
Hey. I’m sure you’ve made a decision by now but I came from Line 6 world (had a helix and a stomp) and then tried a quad cortex briefly before finally getting an fm3. It’s killer.
damn you got fingers on you sunny blasted, clean like neptune! smooth like butter dripping off the pan very nice
If I was mixing those two tones on a recording, I'd have to high-pass the shit out of the Fractal and boost a ton of midrange to get it to sit well. It's far too bass-heavy for practical use as is. The Helix sounds more immediately usable to me as a sound engineer.
It's pretty normal to expect different manufacturers would scale some parameters differently, ESPECIALLY something like dry-wet mix for an effect. There are different scaling curves that can be used. IMHO Helix sounded way more natural at 45% mix as you said, whereas Fractal sounded more like 70-something % instead.
This is why (of course!) it's better to tweak things by ear rather than matching numbers :)
When you play that legato-y stuff, are you using a mode, which one if so?
Mostly major scale here, I'm not thinking of modes unless I need to think of modes (most of the time modal analysis wouldn't be necessary in my playing)
The tones are not sounding the same. Not just the low end, but I guess it is distortion, compression, EQ along the whole palette of frequencies, it has to be matched. I dont think it is doable without headphones and so much delay/ reverb.
Hi John - just started listening to your wonderful channel. What S style guitar are you using here?
K-line springfield I believe is the model.
I got your hx bundle, which preset is this and which folder is it found in? cheers
3.1 - it's called Matteo lead alt
Very interesting to hear you use the Helix more. When I got my Fm3 I thought it sounded heaps better than my Helix. Only use Fractal today.
Been using a Helix for 6 years now. Sounds OK but with a lot of tweaking. In every video that I see here on RUclips the Fractal always sounds much better. I mean, even the stock presets sound great.
Love the helix functionality but man, I’m about to buy the FM3 and try it myself.
a lot of these reviews are actually paid for my the manufactures , I have learned that they hard way . I recommend take these with a pinch of salt and always trying it yourself in store and then choose rather then taking these reviews at word.
The Fractal definitely didn't sound "heaps better" in this video, or better at all. I'm not sure what you guys are hearing.
@@profd65 I wasn't commenting on the sounds in this video. I was referring to my own experience having owned both the Helix and the Fractal. In my experience the Fractal sounded heaps better.
Love my Helix, If I buy a fractal, will I be able to play like you and Matte Mancuso.
Definitely me, but not Matteo!
Question for the audience - if someone did not want to build or tweak: which one has the 'best' (whatever that means) presets/snapshots out of the box? I have a hard time learning menus - I sold my TimeLine for this very reason.
If you don’t want to build your own tones get a tube amp lol they are the definition of plug n play. Unfortunately once you enter the modelling world you have to be willing to really dive into the programming to get ‘your’ sound
If you want plug in play for a full unit, it’s not gonna happen easily. The Line 6 POD GO is probably the simplest plug n play unit. However if you want to use a pedalboard, get a Strymon Iridium or a UA Dream.
In your de-"fence" Sir Cordy...operatives are "fun" "enjoyment" and more playing time - less thwacking away at settings and post mix. Just my 2p Happy Holidays =]]
I prefer Fractals modeling and feel. I've played the Helix quite a bit, but never wanted one. They do feel different to me too and have distinctive tonal qualities. Since there processing and modeling is different, I don't know why you would frustrate yourself if you do, trying to set the parameters the same and looking for them to sound and react the same. I was going to buy an FM9 but there delayed because of shortages into next year and at this point I wonder if I will get for a while. My FM3 does almost everything I need. The only sacrifice is it's live aspect since it doesn't let me have the higher res reverbs. But there still good normal. And it doesn't do dual amp chains either, but I can get over it. And for recording, I also use Amplitube 5 Max which lets me do 3 amp chains if I want.
Please also make Fractal vs Helix on hi gain tones with just Amp cab And drive
With no extra EQ or anything
I have had Helix products before and I am aware they have improved greatly. Their pricing model and market access is worthy of consideration.
That being said, the Fractal just sounds more full, substantial to my ear. If I want to back off on the "meat" in the sound for low and mid in the Fractal, getting closer to the Helix, I would presume that's doable? I had a Boss GT-1000 core and returned it for the same reason as the helix sound I found to be somehow "thin" overall.
Am I a Fractal guy then?
Sorry to zombie comment on an old video, not sure if you'll see this. I also switched back to stomp for a variety of reasons. Have you ever or since found an EQ block or other solution that gets it really close in terms of the low end and the sizzle?
ahh, this is going to end well...
As a stomp fanboy, I think the Matchless is much more inspiring to play in the fractal world. Probably that mid heavy tone makes my headphones happy.
Solid video, not sure how you pull these off without triggering an insurrection. Almost anyone else walking the line between modeling factions would have gotten lynched by now.
Mind you, when you think that this model should in theory sound like a Vox....? To me the vox characteristics aren't really there in the fractal model?
@@johnnathancordy that pedal show has a video with an ac30 and a matchless, and they sound pretty different. ruclips.net/video/3zbo_ZGxvZc/видео.html
@@johnnathancordy honestly, now after listening to both videos, I think you are right. The helix sounds much closer to dan's dc-30. The fractal add too much low mids and loses some of the chime.
Of course, different settings, mics, guitar, etc...
@@john808welk
What we have to remember is both companies modelled different amps
And listening to guitar tones over the compressed RUclips is no way to compare I’ll accept anyones opinion especially JC ! We all hear things differently
But this is a helix focussed channel
Go and have a listen to Leon Todd
If he can’t show you the sound no one can 🤪🎸❤️
@@lukather1 just a friendly PSA about youtube compression, the audio in the video is using an opus (251) codec, which is newer and higher quality than the mp3 codec which we have all been listening to forever. Even next to an unadulterated lossless wav file, the differences would be nearly indistinguishable.
Had the fm9, love the tones there, just didn't work for me as an all in one. I'm just hoping us helix and fractal nerds can coexist!
Cheers
I think Fractal sounds better “out of the box”, simply because they dial in their factory presets better. That said, one can dial in either to sound stellar, or like ass. I a/b’d an fm3 against my Helix when they came out. Kept the Helix.
Agreed both can sound great, I think the biggest difference I notice is that low end which becomes quite apparent when I try them back to back
Wow 😯
I had a Helix HX stomp and could not get good high gain tones out. For cleans it was nice though. But high gain it was awful. The FM3? I bought that and I don’t need to spend 3 hours getting a high gain tone. Like in the real world with my EVH 5150 100 and 50 it’s just tube screamer and amp. In the fm3, Sounds the same! So easy to set up!
I guess it really depends on what you really like: high gain - Fractal. Low gain and clean - Helix would be just fine.
And I thought that I would like Fractal… to my ears, Helix sounds more open and clear. That low end will be missed in the mix anyway. Happy owner of Helix LT for almost five years now!!!!
The difference other than what you said about mids and lows, is the Pick attack of each unit. If the goal is allan holdworth no or minimal pick attack the Fractal is your Animal. The difference hits me like a Brick, I would be wondering how is the Fractal getting such a more Rounded off Pick attack. I bet the new Dyna Cabs, for fractal, and of course the new Cabs update for Helix changed some of this. I bet microphone type and or placements are the Real Answer in this Video.
Just to my ears, the Fractal seems to have more "depth" (low end?) or "meat" to the tone. I appreciate the effort John has put into exampling this.
The Line 6 (like the Boss GT 100 Core I tried seem) both feel feel 'thinner' to me. Yes the Fractal is more complicated to edit but then the presets tend to sound better right out the box to me. The Line is less 'detailed'? in the editing process and seems very 'editable' but then it seems more 'necessary' to get out of the thinner sound that to me plagues all the out of the box Line 6 presets. I wonder, any thoughts?, might it be easier to get towards the Line 6 sound from a Fractal than a Fractal sound for a Line 6?
Of course John makes everything sound good and deceptively 'easy'. What a freakin' awesome left hand :P
Hey John, your guitar demo videos are so good! I agree with your observations, understandably -- one can hear what you're saying in your difference comments is true. Personally though, I have a preference for the hi-fi clarity of the Line 6 lead tones -- especially good for recording I would assume! I could imagine however, heavy-rock guitarists would prefer the heavy-thicker tones of the Fractal for loud guitar band based performance gigs. Enjoy your Christmas weekend in the UK muso-buddy. Cheers, Gaz ... from the large island down under! ;-).
Bro. Plz demo a quilter us superblock!
The Fractal sounds muffled.
shit man idc what you play through you sound great!
Hx shit sounds fine but palm muting lacks the visceral thump and thunder for me whereas Fractal won me over for just performing much like a real amp.
Helix 🔥
why would two different companies offer two different 'standard' marshall (marshall as just one example ) amps and say each of them sound like marshall (authentic), but sound so different (times however many amps are offered)? is it the rich fool companies offering or the poor fool purchasers buying? and thanks JC for the education.
I think the thing is particularly Line 6 have some pretty old and weird Marshall Amps - in particular the Plexi and the JTM 50 are not exactly textbook examples (transitional models). Probably with more modern amps they're likely to be closer as the circuits are more standardised?
So..Helix or Fractal? Which u preff?
Daft question Jc is a long time helix user ! Even though he knows the fractal is better !🤪😎🎸 he wouldn’t say it ! But we all know really 🤪🤪🤪 lol
I have both, prefer Native for daw and recording demos, Fractal for live, and real amps and cabs for any serious recording
@@azzazelo
That my friend is the perfect answer !
Sorry: the Fractal just sounds like a guitar with its tone control rolled all the way down. Maybe this "feels" good, but it doesn't sound great.
Can I offer a quick suggestion? I think you should invest in a simple lav mic instead of speaking through the microphone on your camera.
It's an idea but I'd be tripping over it
@@johnnathancordy wireless?
I played both. Fractal is easily better but needs an updated UI badly. Line6 has a better UI but without a ton of tweaking, it does not sound so great. Has potential but out of the box, my FM9 sings. I am not a pro so I can't speak about ease of use for on stage. Probably Line6 would win there. Switches on the LT I played today seemed cheap. Chassis is a tank. Many patches sounded fizzy and the same. Not one effect blew me away. On the FM9 most effects blow me away. Both have pros and cons but for tone, it's Fractal. Everyone knows this.
To my ears the fractal sound more natural, and I’m a fan of Helix.
I think the Helix sounds much better
FM3 the better ever
Since I'm a dedicated Helix player & have actually never played a Fractal, I'm gonna bow out of the 'which is better' debate, because I'm unfamiliar with Fractal and so would perhsps be biased.
And anyway, the whole binary thinking 'either/or but never both,' thing is pointless. So, even having never played on a Fractal, I immediately surmised that your first solo was the Fractal. What I noticed is, the Helix transmits more of the essential tone of your guitar than Fractal does; the Fractal seems to impose more of its own tonal quality onto your guitar
This is not to say the Fractal sucks & Helix rules. The Fractal may make you sound a bit more homogenous, but it does so by making your lead tone turn straight into butter ( as in _BUTTAH! It was BUTTAH_ 🤣😅😂😹).
I can get 'buttah' out of the Helix too, but the Fractal seems to have it almost as default. I'm not gonna sell my Helix, but I do like some of the Fractal tones, so where's the law against having both?
Fractal sucks at getting new their releases into peoples’ hands. By the time they deliver the last orders, they come out with their “next best thing” not too long after.
I’ve had fractal products for 8 years and have had a helix rack for 2 years
I’m going back to fractal -
FM9 due -
I really don’t understand how anyone can compare the effects in these units !
Does anyone actually like the sliders in an helix ? They are so frustrating!
John if your saying you hear and feel no difference in amp and effects
Let me know ? 🤪😎🎸❤️
I think I could give at least 15 reasons
I'm saying there's definitely differences, but this is supposed to be a vox-ish model, and to me only one really has that vibe
All the modelers kind of sound the same.