Did Fame Corrupt Jordan Peterson?
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- Опубликовано: 4 янв 2024
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Chris and Jordan Peterson discuss how fame changed Jordan. How did fame change Jordan Peterson? What was most surprising about fame according to Jordan Peterson?
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Imagine having the courage to stand up and be seen in this modern social media age. Just imagine that. Insanely stressful
Everyone’s aim, in social media, is attention seeking, for whatever ones ideological intent. Insanely lucrative. Peterson states he has business interests. He’s a blatant pro capitalist. It’s capitalism, not courage, that’s motivated him. The sales pitch he deploys has lured a buying public in which has increased his ideologies visibility.
Upon closer analysis you’ll see that psychology in its many forms of influence has caused the behavioural shift he exposes as the problem. Philosophers see this shift. But no psychologist has the courage to admit that their discipline caused it and that they’re not the solution to societies ills.
@@brynleytalbot778 grifter huh? Shame on those who have something to say and people willing to pay to listen. Shame on all of us for participation in the oppressive capitalist societies that made and paid for the device I'm using. Shame Shame Shame. Get over yourself mate. So smart you can't see reality. If you want to change it then have something to say that people will pay to listen too.
@@fatherburning358 A Royal Institution lecture on the ills of social media stated that dullness doesn’t sell in that arena so experts on social media are those most able to entertain with less dull information. Peterson rose on that entertainment value. A charismatic university lecturer. The underdog image helped too as his ideology was at odds with that currently riding high. His cult won’t entertain other theories. It’s him or nothing. That’s tunnel vision, something his notoriety requires, unquestioning compliance and obedience.
One must ask whether his prominence would have ever risen without the ‘Influencer’ phenomenon of social media platforms. And whether that virtual battlefield of self validation caused his health to deteriorate when brutal reality hit in his academic career. Selling tickets to an entertainment is capitalism, his true intent, whereas intellectual debate with his academic peers would move theory forward, questioning the credibility of it given his populist public strategy above academic status with his peer group. His professional body imposing retraining looks like an attempt to ground him in reality, professionally and academically.
He’s clinging on in desperation to the more dubious content makers and the edutainment sector his ideology fits, the elixir of success its USP, in a highly competitive environment. He’ll prosper just so long as a recessionary environment arrives where desperate times call for desperate measures, the gurus full of promises to enrich everyone, the psychologists alchemical dream.
@@fatherburning358well said.
@@fatherburning358 What's is the difference between him and sales person con man if his main motive is selling you a course? Furthermore, only a fast google search can know a lot of the evidence he quote is just misquoting. For instance, he say, with confidence, that if your IQ is below 83, there is absolutely nothing you can do to better the world. Basically saying that all these people are useless without any evidence. He leads his viewer in a dangerous path, which may leads to eugenics.
I had the privilege to shake his hand and thank him for is free lectures he posted on RUclips back in his professor days. He was more engaging than I was prepared for!
You shook his hand on behalf of all of us. Thank you sir!
I hear alot of extreme opinions...some of my own included.
Peterson brings me back to the skills I learned in family counseling as a teen.
He's honest, firm and not egotistical.
Great example for younger men to hear (I'm 53 now).
It's ridiculous when I hear people say he just says big words without meaning. But you summed it up nicely
His discourse is often described as word salad, which is a sound analysis. If it’s worth saying and you want it understood and open to everyone to critique it, you express it simply. He doesn’t want scrutiny. That’s his egotism, resplendent.
Too many of the disillusioned, disaffected, and disenfranchised, flock to his ideology. I’m doubtful they truly comprehend him but by association consider themselves intellectuals and as a consequence, intelligent. Cults attract flocks lacking a firm life affirming foundation. His cult is lost. I’m doubtful he’s giving them a chance to find their own unique path through the hardships of life, instead offering sanctimonious solutions, based on selective research devoid of counterparts to contradict his assertions.
One must admit to being wrong more than being right to find the moderates in the middle where sanity resides. He’s another extreme that’s not helping that. Extremes bring conflict. Moderates bring compromise. We need to compromise on much these extremist gurus want to impose as societies utopian ideal for the new few they’ll lead to topple the old few they feud with. In reality without these extremes to challenge they’d have absolutely no purpose at all.
@@brynleytalbot778 I wouldn't admit that he more wrong than right on his life advice and things of that nature. I would say quite the opposite. I find myself disagreeing with him on interviews and politics.
To your point of "If it’s worth saying and you want it understood and open to everyone to critique it, you express it simply" I think that's not exactly possible with every topic, Some things are just complicated. I also don't think the main priority of an argument is for it to be easy, or open to critique, I would say it's quite the opposite.
Yes I'm sure some of his fans have big ego's, and think they truly understand every part of how the world works. But isn't that just human, isn't that the case in every type of ideology. Everyone is always convinced they have it the right way with they religion, their beliefs. I really don't think it's a particular issue with Jordan.
"instead offering sanctimonious solutions" His approach to solving solutions are very individualistic. I never finished one of his videos coming out thinking. 'Well I guess I need to do this with my life!'. More like 'Shit I gotta figure this out'. For me it was very much about learning what I could so I can figure out my own life. Making my own solution for my own problems. On his q&a videos when someone asked a solution of a particularly nuanced problem he would often say something like "You know I would need to know more about the situation to give help you out". For me that sounds like someone approaching a problem in a very human way.
@@brynleytalbot778I think his views are sometimes hard to criticise because they are intrinsically nuanced , for the same reason they are hard to fully grasp. His views on overcoming hardship are hard to disagree with and pretty much common sense emanating from a respectable and eloquent persona . I don’t agree with everything he says but most of what he says are just hard truths. Anecdotally my journey out of depression was pretty much spot on with all of his thoughts on it . He helps people. Unfortunately some of the people he helps remain idiots and attach themselves indiscriminately to him as an ideology which is fundamentally anti-Peterson if you will.
@@average.yt.commenter609 the issue is most of the shit he says could be expressed in a much simpler manner and he overcomplicates it just so to appeal to his faux intellectual audience. The fact you arent self aware enough to see that is kinda humorous lmaoooooooo. You're overcomplicated reply kinda proved brynleys point without you realizing it.
I’m a middle aged woman and I have learned so much from this guy
He confirms your prejudices. That’s the easy path. He’s rather good at that. True enquiry requires debate which challenges thinking and the prejudices inherent in it. That’s the route to learning, rather than the rote learning he imparts.
@@brynleytalbot778
Feminism and lefties woke ideologies created non existent concepts that confirm women delusional prejudices against men, which created the distopian western society we are in.
Peterson just gave examples to explain that simply, but apparently not so simply for everyone.
Same. He fills me with hope, and makes me feel strong. And, he helps me feel like it’s ok to be womanly - to need my husband and love him as much as I do. But mostly, he gave me the courage to tell the truth. And to discipline my kids with love, so that I won’t dislike them. Love Jordan!! ❤
You're one of the best listeners in the podcast 'universe' and that makes you get the best of your guests.
There was a time when Jordan cried a lot on his vlogs. I can identify with him in a small way. I was a clinical pharmacist who did ER duty and also reviewed a couple of hundred psych charts every week as a part of quality assurance of the mental health department in an HMO. The psych ER visits with suicide attempts were tough. But after reviewing the psych charts I found they affected me too. The brokenness caused by incest, by chemical dependency, desertion, physical, psychological, sexual and metal abuse, affected me. And the inadequacy of resources to handle the problems saddened me and cast a gloomy pale over my life. The 15 or 30 minutes every 2 weeks or a month with a therapist that we gave them seemed inappropriately small in relation to the problems they had. And the extensive use of psychotropic drugs seemed rather dubious too. I watched the rapid weight gain and increase in lipid levels, blood sugar and blood pressure levels add to their problems. Eventually I got out of medicine completely. We were not getting the job done and may have had a net negative affect overall on the collective health of our patients.
My therapist is obsessed with the notion of me taking anti-depressants and doesn't respect that I'm skeptical of them
@@thatwasprettyneatskeptical of what? They just restore the chemical imbalance in your brain. It's a simple mechanism.
@@thatwasprettyneat Stay strong and don't cave! You can doOoOo it!! 🎊🎉 (Also, if your therapist keeps pushing them against your will, maybe it's time to start searching for a different one?)
To be blunt, people’s opinions and prejudices imparted to impose their view they’re correct, are the cause of most mental health conditions, unless there’s a genetic component.
CBT, like drug therapy, gives Key Productivity Indicators, the real reason they’re used. It’s about looking as if your methods are working rather than them actually working. Sticking plaster solutions.
I posed the bizarre hypothetical situation, to my psychologist, of a nation where 51% of the population were now on antidepressants making the 49% the problem that’s causing their mental health conditions, who are now the ones who need medication to normalise them to the new norm, the 51% majority. In time that situation will come true. At that juncture we’ll need to assess what’s really gone wrong. Till then psychologists will continue in kicking the can down the road. Peterson is one such can kicker.
I’m very doubtful that psychology has the solution as in my opinion it’s been the cause. It’s entered a multitude of areas of life, occupational psychology, behavioural psychology (advertising, marketing, social media algorithms), social psychology, clinical psychology, etc, till it’s finally seen the consequences of its meddling. I’d not trust it to sort out its own mess. It’s never been a mature academic discipline, now in its third age of therapeutic theory, which I relate to the infancy of medicine.
Psychiatry has a sounder footing and therapeutic progression though psychoanalysis. Psychology is budget basement psychiatry. It’s best suited to academia.
lol you should look into measures they take for the elderly in order to prolong their suffering. it's kinda fucked up when you think about it.
Jordan looks amazing. Healthier than ever! Thanks for bringing him on so often, Chris.
I noticed that too
Jordan always talks about cleaning your room before you think about trying to change the world, but his impact on people ever since he emerged as a public figure has literally been worldchanging. The thousands that have attended his lectures and the millions that have watched his content online are far better off after absorbing his wisdom.
I’m not sure that that’s an accurate statement. There is a growing number who were once spellbound by him but have now seen though the stagecraft he employs to psychologically manipulate the disenfranchised, an easy target group, given their disillusionment. Without a reasonable critique of his ideology and academic scrutiny of his evidence for it, which an audience doesn’t seek in self help books, it’s questionable how much long term change in people’s mental health has actually been accomplished.
Cognitive Behavioural Therapy has a relapse rate of around six months in most clients. If you’re constantly reinforcing an ideology to make it successful then the audience aren’t making moves away from it as their support structure, which psychological intervention is supposedly designed to do. True psychoanalysis with a psychiatrist to locate primary roots of the cause are far more effective than some psychological sticking plaster. That’s my caveat emptor for Peterson’s ideology.
Trying to cure society by manipulating it into your utopian vision is no better than the utopian delusion that wrecked it.
it is easier to clean your room then your blood.............JP took the poison
ive been watching JP since 13, hes helped me tremendously but id say andrew huberman pobably has a bigger impact.
I now also agree that JP is pretty stagecrafty and maybe its because im an atheist and just find a lot of it is him spewing biblical things. Which isnt a problem or annoying until it is of course, i mean even I read the bible. Im well beyond his advices now and have been healthy for a long long while now.
But that doesnt mean he has key principles that I dont return to, that was also necessary for the development of being way past his audience and advice.
And obviously a depressed person will experience depression again, CBT or not the person has a tool to fight it WHEN it happens. Its not about being cured forever, thats the most... insane thought ive ever heard. Its about being able to deal with it in relapses or experiences when you return to the bottom. Which WILL happen, CBT or not.
To deny that he hasnt helped millions is just as illogical and fairy driven as saying hes a cure for society.
@@brynleytalbot778
@@brynleytalbot778 It's a utopian vision to tell people to clean up there room, and to be honest and not project yourself to be someone you're not.... Like he says in the video, you may just need an encouraging word, because from your comment you seem as though you're dying for one. I don't have any doubt that you're intelligent, but it's okay for someone to promote good ideas, and still have opinions you disagree with. Hats off man, good luck on the path!
Imagine how clean Peterson's room must be.
Thank you Jordan and Chris. I really enjoyed this clip and the full episode. Wonderfully insightful and inspiring!
I’ve very much enjoyed listening to this interview. Fantastic. Thank you.
Chris, you are a fantastic interviewer.
This was great. Thanks guys
for the first 12-18 months or so after his return I was a bit worried about susception to dogma, overpoliticization, and simplification of his ideas but he seems better every month! He looks truly happier, more peaceful, more fun lately. So nice to see.
I noticed this as well .. He seemed to have a chip on his shoulder he couldn’t escape.
Much better lately
It’s sad that a sycophancy has established itself around him, but he’s also highly dependent on it to retain a public presence. It’s a cult. Anyone not seeing the danger in this is a fool. And his blatant Israeli support, a worrying situation given the dubious commentators he’s now sharing platforms with. He’s entered the realm of social media conspiracy content makers which should wake his followers up to the dubiousness of his ideology. ARC was directionless rhetoric. Maybe he’s falling fast rather than on another meteoric rise.
Yeah! And his recent podcast episodes have been excellent.
Those were some extremely well phrased questions.
-Two times I was thinking, that is hitting the nail on its head.
Couldn’t wield language myself so effectively, but at least I can recognize it.
"This is the world you have come to serve, and nothing but this service will render real meaning and true relationships for you. Understand this, and you will find the secret and the key to greater happiness, a greater meaning and a greater purpose, which are waiting to be discovered."
The New Message from God
That message isn't new. Jesus understood this 2,000 years ago.
I'm not a Bible thumper. I couldn't quote you verse in the book, but the message is very clear.
But Jordan Peterson is an atheist. He thinks bible is just pure symbolism, He coinned the term "meta truth" and claiming that the exodus is continuously happening. You know that Jews aren't force out of the Egypt in reality, but as he claim, metaphorically. Thus, if Bible is symbolism, he don't believe in God. Moreover, he try to use these term to evade the fact that he is an atheist because he knows very well that his audience liked it. If they leave, he has nobody to sell his course to.
He had to battle with death and found a new equilibrium. He is fully aware of his shadow unlike his criticasters. All in all his contributions to humanity are very very positive. You don't have to agree w his thoughts but you cannot criticize hin for being either sloppy or non consistent. In fact, you learn most from people you do not fully agree with. Those who criticise him should take note..
The Daily Wire JBP is very different from the professor in the quad or the lobster guy in Kansas City back in ‘18. We watched the change happen to him on RUclips. I miss the days when JBP was happily teaching and in interviews, explaining stuff.
I still watch the old videos sometimes when I have spare time. He seemed so much more engaged in what he was doing when he was a professor and his speech seemed to be so much more honest and genuine.
@@oneloveSURFISTAI agree with you but who could keep up with the stress of being constantly defamed, protested and accused to hold positions that he himself despises and speaks out against for a sustained period of time ? Not a lot of people i would imagine. I'm grateful for the message this man brought us and in the grand scheme of things he "sold out" a lot less than most people would in his position. He was in a rough physical and mental shape for a while too, I'm just glad he's still alive while still being consistant in his thought.
he's not much different. we've all grown up.
Change is expected we all learn and grow no matter the stage or status
@@UNCHART3DGAMING I think what we get now is the public man. Back in the day, we got the man.
Peterson is at his absolute best when speaking about psychology.
Incredibly strong person. Thx for the interview.
The most humble compassionate and intelligent man I’ve ever come across. Jordan Peterson, thank you from my heart to yours ❤
Thanks!
I'm on a totally different wavelength from him for almost everything state-related, but Jordan has helped me Immensely.
I love Jordan Peterson
Gotta love your interviews with Dr. J.P.
I've watched a lot of JP about 10 years ago. I thought he made his (mostly excellent) points and that's that. What more can he add, after recovering from nearly loosing his wife and his own health? Certainly he can reach other people, but I though there'd be no value for me in any of it. Later I've watched 3 or 4 of his interviews and they were also excellent. It's not so much as novel insights but a continued conversation which was still well worth listening to.
Fame gave him hell
You can’t comprehend a whole lot, can you?
everyone in this space of 'public intellectuals' (even comedians talking about the woke stuff etc.) are haunted by the same issue: constant hardening of their position and abandonment of actual discourse. Everyone is entrenched in their opinion and when you realize there is absolutely no hope of any sort of positive discourse with the 'other side', you just radicalize ever further. What else is there to do after all? You either stick with your people or you simply have two enemy camps when you try to be reasonable.
I find myself in the position of having very few allies in discourse as I don't belong to any one camp, and even though I'm leaning very hard to the progressive left on most things I'm most under attack by said side, which I find fascinating to be honest.
Extremist ideology fits the sensationalist arena of social media where eyeballs and keyboard warriors feed the algorithms directing content into the prejudices in each audience hoping that interlopers ignite hostile retribution’s and humiliating rejection. It’s not discourse or debate, it’s open warfare. Someone said truth is the first casualty of war. Honesty and integrity, within this virtual colosseum, are abandoned too in the pursuit of a sycophantic following.
In reality, the social spaces where genuine debate thrives, entrenchment results in isolation. Within the insularity of the social media space those insular entrenched perspectives unite giving the illusion of being accepted in reality. It’s all delusional till charismatic people turn it into a profitable business and that insularity becomes a real world audience. That’s the point at which it becomes dangerous. Just as Woke gained a reality this ideology Peterson and others preach is gaining one, ARC it’s inception. Two ridiculous extremes.
@@Jacco0”most under attack by said side” should be big red 😂 flag don’t you think?
@@helenfalk3049 Well, now that I think about it more, most people I have conversations with are the progressive left, maybe about 50%? Then another 30% would be centre left, another 15% would be centre right and only 5% would be considered conservative or right wing. So that would make the chance I have a conflict with left progressive people 10x as likely, which sounds about right. The thing is, to the far end both sides people are very dogmatic in their beliefs and the chance of them having some mental issues are significantly higher.
@@Jacco0 I mean the entirety of the left's ideology is about tolerance, and yet you yourself have experienced the reality that is the fact that they are by far the least tolerant of any group of people, by far, of people with different opinions and and values.
The weather in Cambridge is rough
IMO many men gave up on playing the game, whereas as unhappy as women may be, they are still content on playing the game... the hypergamy caused by women having higher status in society then ever before compared to the average man adds to men giving up i think... i think people forget men tend to work hard to attract women and if that isnt working then why be ambitious
That’s an insight with some credibility. My perspective is that Western economies turned away from physical labour based industry towards social labour based service sectors which favoured the highly sociable, women, above men, though the effete male can now rise in status, lowering most genuinely masculine males as a result of that.
Hypergamy is the female seeking to rise two social status positions upwards, which was by marriage, but as you say, can now be achieved by career, the workplace dynamic totally changed due to the service sectors dominance. Regrettably this social status and social inclusion seems to define the entrance into management positions. Those fitting socially rise, those not, stagnate.
The work hard, get on, mantra, works best for the sociable, not the hardest working. True men are quitting the game, relationship and advancement. The goalposts favour the sociable and were intentionally moved to favour women under the illusion of equality. Hardly equitable.
@@brynleytalbot778Brynley, it sounds to me like you have been listening to Jordan Peterson!
I’ve read your other comments and feel you mischaracterise him. For example, he can only be considered an extremist by those who don’t factor in how far the Overton window has moved to the left.
There’s quite a lot in your posts of interest (if I understand what you’re trying to say that is - communicating is difficult, and the “word salad” thing is not helpful). Constructive criticisms of the psychological profession are relevant today, and I imagine JP would agree and have something to say in this regard.
I have no idea who you are but guessing young, male, educated? For the record I’m old, female and in the process of re-educating myself (voluntarily 😂), so go easy on me!!
I would be interested to hear a conversation between JP and you - now, that would be something, wouldn’t it? Need a parallel universe …
@@helenfalk3049 I feel like Peterson rarely engage in debate with prominent left leaning figures (people of his own size) because he has no knowledge regarding the other side. It is always "Peterson destroy woke activists (college student without media/debate training)" For instance, years ago he debated Slavoj Žižek, he reveals that he has no knowledge regarding Das Kapital. Therefore, I do agree that he may be an expert in behavioral psychology and he is a psychiatrist, his comment on society may need to take a grain of salt. Sometimes, just because he looks confident doesn't mean he is saying what is true. "Pareto principle," where 20 percent of people do 80 percent of the work, or something about that, can apply to certain industry. But, it would be grossly irresponsible to apply this conclusion to other field. However, he make it seems like there is no exceptions. However, he use such distribution and lobster hierarchy to justify social hierarchy, which is not only extremely conservative but also naturalistic logic fallacy.
I feel like this makes sense because there is no job that I really want to do. If I could have any job in the world, I don’t even know what it would be. I don’t really care. I would have been happy working at a grocery store, retail, golf course, whatever something simple that 50 years ago you could buy a house and have a wife and kids. Now, you can work in retail or customer service and be homeless. I’ve just given up. I don’t care anymore.
12:14 - omg JBP love the socksss 🧦
ty
Its so hard to not put this man on a pedestal,i need a goggins peterson podcast 🔥🔥
10:22 - okay I love this man
Jp is the man
❤ this guy!
I remember Jordan Peterson said something along the lines of “Never lie, aim to tell the truth in all situations. Telling the truth may not always get what you want but you’ll be guaranteed a heck of an adventure.”
I like how Petersen pauses before answering a question. So many people are afraid to pause now during conversations because usually another person will ALWAYS jump in and interrupt, and then you never get to say what you were preparing to say. I do not enjoy conversations nowadays as I mostly get talked AT and not talked TO. I can never pause for too long or I "lose my place" in the conversation. So annoying.
It's amazing that most psychologists consider Jung an irrelevant mystic when he wholly contributed the most fundamental and well-replicated dimension of modern personality science: introversion/extraversion. The sad thing about Phds is they're every bit as conformist to ideology as everyone else. It's not possible to be a 'good' academic and also be a visionary one
A good academic educator imparts knowledge impartially. An academic researcher is a visionary. In their correct context, and application, it’s possible, and correct, to be both.
“12 Rules” literally saved my life ❤
He will see his largest audience long after he is gone.
I make my bed every morning when before I just missed the morning.
I love my life now.
I learned that an “encouraging word” isn’t one that tells you that you’re fine the way you are. That’s a lazy cop out.
Maybe 12 rules is better, but man his talks on the topic of religion are *awful.* (Really huge contrast to most of his psychology subject matter.) It's sad to think he'll continue misleading people on the bad topics after he's gone.
@@tonygoodkind7858 I don’t have the expertise to break it down. He is trying his best to come from a secular analytical place regardless of his personal beliefs. I think he knows that message serves and reaches more people and the faith part comes naturally after that.
Overall a huge net gain for society.
But that book lit a spark under my ass
@@tonygoodkind7858 of course someone has to point out something completely irrelevant to the topic that the original comment brought out just to "remind" us that he has negative points too.
they said the 12 rules saved their life.
there is no mention of religion or anything other than a simple gratitude.
we know that his talks about religion are awful, but what does that has to do with the topic at hand?
@@pflh2391 If someone is predicted to "see [their] largest audience long after [they're] gone" it's worth warning about the horrible ideas such a person had, right? Well Peterson has many horrible ideas, including undermining the meaning of truth itself which he does on many occasions (he has to; he frequently argues for actual falsehoods).
Jordan "fiction isn't false" Peterson should always be a person one listens to with *extreme* care. Because a person unwilling to admit truth is truth (and fiction is fiction)
("fiction isn't false" sounds like George Orwell's warnings in 1984 (war is peace, freedom is slavery, etc), but is an actual Peterson quote from S4:E69 of the JBP podcast.)
Whatever one might think of his opinions on various subjects, anyone unwilling or unable to see that this is a good and honest man doing what he can to relieve the general misery of the times is either not listening or is in some sense malevolent.
Anyone proposing another ideological solution to the prevalent ideological one that caused this has a malevolent intent. A good and honest man is a moderate, not another extremist, but that position doesn’t sensationalise issues into an audience following them. General misery is the product of another’s happiness as their ideology reigns after unseating the former happiness of the now miserable. It’s far harder to please everyone without considerable misery for all being the consequence. But then everyone is equally miserable and happy. Equilibrium.
I don’t think he’s a bad person but he is certainly corrupted due to the controversy and fame he got on the conservative end has caused him to lean into-and become- a conservative ideologue. Which as a fan of his older work is a bit of a tragedy considering he used to preach about the perils of ideology. He even says to abandon ideology in his most recent book. And then joins the daily wire. Womp womp, man
@@markdouglas1601 He joins the daily wire because all of the people on the left cancelled him. What else can he do if he wants to make an impact?
You haven't given a single instance of where his views are wrong, merely that he's on the wrong side of ideology, which is kind of ironic given your end statement...
@@user-nj9ru4ef2w I don’t think he’s on the wrong side, I’d be saying the same thing if he was a leftist ideologue. He could’ve easily kept doing what he was doing rather than leaning into the right.
The issue with it is that he’s hard to take him for his word because he has to give the conservative viewpoint rather than an objective, nuanced viewpoint. Its like if you watch CNN and they bash trump, you can’t really use that as a measure of how he’s doing as president. Same when JP bashes the left. If he doing it because the issues are real or because the DW overlords are paying him too?
There are plenty examples of him oversimplifying things for the sake of staying in the conservative lane. Or being bias to right wingers. For instance he doesn’t call Andrew Tate or trump narcissistic (which is actually good) but he calls Lia Thomas narcissistic and Biden demonic. His inconsistency is too partisan to take him seriously.
Again. Writes a chapter in his book called abandon ideology. And then joins the Daily Wire. And does a “conservative manifesto” video. Practice what you preach and all that
@@markdouglas1601 can you give an example of him being biased? I don't see it. The only bias he has is for western values/religion, which are not at all superior to any other values and in fact, IMO, the source of most of the world's problems today.
Dr. Peterson is a positive force of Nature. Thanks be to God for this man.
I am not watching this but I would say… just as a quick answer… yes. I do not think it was fame itself. I think he just slid further right because that is where his positive feedback (and money) came from. The same thing happened to Russell Brand (i think). It’s just a natural effect. Family Doctors, who will all claim that they are doing right by their clients and who likely believe that to be the case, will change their practice style if you pay them differently. I cannot imagine Peterson is more motivated to do the right thing or less susceptible to positive reinforcement.
It’s kind of a silly question.
I guess we could argue about whether that counts as “corruption”.
I don’t always agree with Peterson on certain takes. But when he dives into psychology and religion, man, it’s truly engaging to listen to.
Dr JP is a well spoke individuals... how can l emulate please help
Git gud
Read lots of classic literature.
@@michaeljames6817 Any suggestions ?.... help me out it would be appreciated
Give em hell
I guess we need to think about alienation more then... I'm sure that there was a philosopher who was into that ... quite recently too... can't quite place the name right now! 🤔
Crackup how JP doesn’t acknowledge the fact that fame gave him a pretext to take positions on issues outside his professional competence.
I'd amend this. The political stuff I've seen him comment on he actually has great competence in and has studied longer than I've been alive.
I think what you're identifying is the way he's spoken about it at times is more like a political commentator and less like a psychologist, which is when he's at his strongest communication pattern.
His university lectures about communism are MUUUUUCH better than his modern clips about it.
Not sure if that makes sense, but it's something I've fail in all the time. When talking to my boss about advertisements I fall apart if I try to explain it in market terms, but if I explain it on cultural and psychological terms it makes more sense and carries more weight because it's within my strongest framework. I KNOW advertising, but when I'm talking about it in the wrong framework it just doesn't work.
Super grateful for your comment because it gave me those ideas and helped me understand where I might be going wrong in my own communication.
Are you a better and more knowledgeable person than you were yesterday? Yes ? Congratulations that is call begin successful.
Peterson demonstrates how toxic our society has become. In my opinion our society is extremely emotionally and psychologically unwell and Peterson articulate this perhaps not as bluntly as he could.
It’s why it’s there and who manipulated it into that and how. Put bluntly, psychology is, in its multitude of forms, the culprit. Behavioural manipulation, beginning with public relations, then marketing and advertising, unleashed the power of that psychological coercion onto a public oblivious to its tactics of persuasion. Politicians now use such coercion through social media. We are within one massive advertising world where we’re sold happiness as the solution to the unhappiness it created through its last promise of happiness. The toxin. It’s designed to perpetuate disillusionment, disharmony, disenfranchisement, and despair. The toxic result. End psychologists manipulation and you end the utopian delusion they created.
The manipulation of the population from what I understand has a long history, long before Modern Psychology emerged. Admittedly Psychology perhaps refined the methods to be more effective.
I completely agree. It also seems like those who want to help get condemned or ignored, whilst those that want to enable poor behaviour tend to get promoted.
Julia Galef talks about two mindsets the first being the soldier and the second the scout mindset. @@frishter
Yeah, Jordan, you were your own man at a much younger age than I ever was. Whenever I took on the world, or part of the world, the tools that I used, the parts of myself I applied were always based in my family. It all came from them. That's why I'm kind of floating right now. My family is gone. The puzzle I was constantly working on that determined what the world would see of me any given day are gone. Sounds like you (not that you didn't have family) in your twenties. Flinging yourself out into the world with no restraints on what people saw of you. Family be damned. That's normal. That's what people do growing up.
0 Respect for a Man I admired for so long,
Your point?
He’s sold out and lost the respect of his initial followers. Politically he’s exposed his bias which informs his ideology and thinking. He’s morally bankrupt.
@@brynleytalbot778Can you please tell me what his “ideology” is?
And I'm surprised no-one reads Jung. The idea of facing our shadow fits so perfectly. Maybe just as well as the ideal unattainable partner of CPTSD. The shadow. You either look at yourself and how far you have yet to go, or you turn away from the shadow to the idealized version of yourself you falsely maintain in your mind. Yes. Yes exactly. If only I'd been reading such things, like you probably did, instead of returning home from campus each weekend. Because there just has to be a good reason I'm scared. The answer just must be there in my family somehow.
Pay attention and discover genius !!
Thanks for honoring my freedom of speech.
After misUSING his license as a psychologist on social media to in turn become a millionaire … Jordan Peterson on one of his more recent podcasts THE MONSTER OF SELF-GUILT … has now admitted the following words … “Yeah well, one of the things you learn if you are a clinician and you have any sense, is, also, is also why you don’t offer people advice. But I don’t know what the hell you should do. Like maybe you and I could figure it out together with some really careful thought, but I can’t … most people are in situations that are sufficiently complex, so that I can’t … casual advice is just not helpful. I mean there is a real arrogance in that. The same arrogance as judgement, like.”
And I find it very odd indeed, that a psychologist, that was trained to help people overcome mental problems ... would be in support of the death penalty.
Robert Langdon from the Da Vinci Code was a professor of iconology and symbology at Harvard University. Jordan Peterson is practically that guy.
An actor on the stage practicing stagecraft. How right you are, not that I think that’s your point.
Sounds like being rich and unknown is the move
Eccentric socks are a side effect?
The hook is self improvement, the bait is word salad, and the catch is a clean room with feigned understandings and mild to intense confusion.
3:12 6 years ago, his audience was more male, alone, ragged along the edges. Now, half comes in suits. JP's explanation: He helped them.
Alternative explanation: He got famous and now attracts a different audience?
I like Chris, but anyone else get the feeling that the hyper-precision with which the placed products face the camera, not even pretending to be there by chance, is at once heartbreaking and patronizing.
It's his (and James Smith's) product. Also, how else other than advertising do you propose he finance this podcast to such a high standard?
@@s3m4jno5w4d I'm not sure if you answered the question and I just don't see it - but I truly don't. What I do see instead though, are some assumptions about my deeper relationship to advertisement about which it would be very difficult for you to have any precise or nuanced idea.
To your point, I think that 'standard', if you measure it on parameters like presence and authenticity and not on studio choice and production quality, was much higher in the old days.
He's kinda begun to go around in circles a little bit with a series of the same old points as far as I can tell. It was also, to me at least, much more interesting back in the day when he had unknown voices on sharing unknown or new ideas, as compared to having the same celebrities as everyone else has on, sharing the same old ideas they already shared on everyone else's or their own podcasts.
Also, I get kinda bored with the increase in irrelevant name dropping of his new famous friends - and here you're, of course, free to make assumptions that I'm just envious because I'm sitting in my mom's basement doing nothing with my life - but it's just not that interesting to me. I miss the old Chris.
But perhaps that's just me. I don't tend to think myself very unique though, so perhaps not.
I'd say that it's clear MW has gone from a cool interesting bedroom project to a boring business, and I predict that is the first major step towards its becoming irrelevant exactly like it has happened to so many before him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him in a year of two stating that he's making more money and having less fun. I'm sure you disagree though ;)
If the angles were such so as to be “pretending to be there by chance”, some of the sensitive souls watching would be heartbroken and patronized by the deception.
@@bhz8947 I'm sure you're right
Eminem and JP at one table?! Incredible!
While I appreciate Dr Peterson's points I also think he as a psycho therapist is prone to overemphasize people with problems: because only those people ask him for help. The large number of content people won't show up in his consultancy or praxis.
what I try to say is that Peterson´s self declared pessimism could be unfounded because he deals mostly with people with problems that are not representative of the society as a whole. Not all people need his treatment, but we all have to eat, which makes a big difference. @@Cuttuttlefish
I admire Dr Peterson generally very much, it´s just a point I wanted to make that could be useful to observe. Anyway I would not be interested in personal attacks, I don´t hold a grudge, so thanks for your contributions and peace, @@Cuttuttlefish
Only Jordan Peterson can say that something is "ridiculously interesting" 😁
I find the blatant sycophancy within comments regarding him ridiculously interesting, irritating, and irrelevant.
@@brynleytalbot778 Your proclivity for extended comments is enthralling.
@@ZwiekszoneRyzyko It’s called debate, a competitive sport. It’s depressing that egotism demands that comments are self serving attempts to just appear in the feed rather than constructive criticism of the content. The descent into sycophancy is also ridiculous.
Good interview 😊
3:54
I love this interview, but love isn't simply an instinct or a story. That's just the training course for love.
Now, imagine that the modern wisdom guy is the character "Romeo." He might think that he knows everything about love because he's lived the story over and over, but he doesn't. He only used the practical distribution of the love story to benefit others, but that doesn't mean that he knows the first thing about love. If he did, he would reconcile with Juliet and be capable of loving her in the 3d.
If two people can live together skillfully without either person insulting the strength and talent of the other, and still be in love, that's what love is. That can take centuries of training to prepare for.
Or just one year, depending.
What is that white can with the eye on it?
Universities in US have resigned, in the name of conformity and political correctness (a convenient, soft term for restriction of speech and ideological terror/indoctrination) to far left liberal agenda of all out censorship of expression, cancel culture and manufactured, superficial empathy (vs true concern and effort). They are, in US and Canada, no longer educational institutions but ideological shrines of indoctrination adhering to extreme ideological whim of the far left. VERY similar to USSR! And I lived there first 10 years of my life. America is becoming the primordial character of the hero who killed tue monster and then became the monster himself.
So, it’s definitely time to start a new model of a university they’ll concern itself solely with education and transmission of knowledge and be politically neutral. I am sending my teenager to Europe for college. I wouldn’t have if I had a choice here. I see many more people either choosing to not go to college or go elsewhere. Ivy League is becoming a joke for real scholars and individuals who have dignity and brains. Really, time for an alternative education - and all of these thinking people who have been shunned for their intellect will come together
I don't know if it's much better in europe, unfortunately the mind virus has become an epidemic.
Very well said. Corporations place a bachelors degree as prerequisite for basic jobs that can be taught on the job. Ergo, the degree is a trivial commodity and universities the printing press.
Jbp hits it out of the park every time. He is falsely condemned or targeted simply because he is the low hanging fruit. Not many others in his profession have the guts to point out the hysterias and psychosis for what they are and how they are brainwashed into university students.
@@kaktus977 it will certainly depend where in Europe but Germany and Netherlands and a few others (certainly not UK, I don’t even consider it Europe in that sense) have something to offer - and often, for free or for fees that are the fraction of the money we pay here so they can hire the best football coach
@@HenrikKarapetyan i dont know how bad it is in the US, coming from a central European country, I can tell you that the students come out of Uni severely to moderately brain washed no matter what they study. If they study Sociology or something in the humanities, they tend to vomit very similar propaganda as we read on the Internet and firmly believe that it is truth. If you keep them away from humanities they will be fine.
Intellect is a rare thing but mediocrity is rife. The university sector morphed into a consumerist product with ridiculous student targets that threw merit under the buses wheels. When the university sector prizes mass wanton mediocrity above minimal warranted merit then what we’ve witnessed is the consequence, its intellectual demise. Peterson’s rise is within this mediocrity phase, where students wanted to be entertained, not educated.
The only solution is to abandon equality by reducing university access to those who truly merit it. Then sanity may prevail. But Peterson and his clan will disappear as intellectual rigour replaces insipid thinkers with impressive knowledge banks but no true academic ability. The age of the showman academic chosen to entertain and attract student numbers should end.
"Kid, we had this guy the day he decided to be somebody."
Paul Newman to Robert Redford, end of the STING...
I'm going to say yes it did. I think JP has some brilliant moments, to this day, but watching him become a conservative mouthpiece on the daily wire is disappointing. Someone with his aptitude should be destined for greater things.
Give ‘em hell Netanyahu
He isnt articulate in any pseudo scientific way but confuses his vision of a suffering humanity with his own. But he's gotten better recently with the enormous wealth he generates every hour.
And that accumulation is as they discuss it today.
Very often he seems self sacrificing in the extreme if constantly cinfused by the practice.
I liked to listen to Jordan Peterson's speeches several years back when he was a lot more rational, sensible and courteous, and most importantly talked strictly on topics he very well understood.
The "new" Peterson is much more aggressive, self-centered and what's worst he tends to talk also about topics he clearly has no clue about - like the Ukrainian war - Ukraine - Russia etc....
@@someguy2016 ???
💯 He's embarrassing himself with geopolitics.
@@someguy2016 Don't you think someone who give people wisdom should know the accuracy and the validity of his "wisdom?" Even though it is not the crime, don't you think you have the due diligence to ensure that what you say is factually and verfiably correct? Some of his claim can easily be falsified with some google search but when he is this confidence, it is easy to persuade those people who are passive learners. He can talk in his lane however he want because his words need to be fact checked. Free speech is not speech without consequence. Even though I admire his way of standing against the authority, I still feel like he should fact check and re-examine what he thinks is factually correct from time to time to ensure that he don't give his follower wrong interpretation of certain issue.
Just me or does JP look different these days? Not hating, just making an observation
Essentially half the world wants him cancelled or dead.. how could he not look different
@@KurapikasChains727 Like I said, not hating, just wonder if he has an illness or something going on. I admire Dr Peterson
Yeh, he’s ten years older ( as are you!).
@@hp-cs7mx please do not remind me. Kind regards 😆
Course it corrupted him.
He's now all of a sudden a religious zealot. He doesn't want to alienate his core audience who ironically is Christian/traditionalist. So he is capitalising on it. And this is also why he never gives a clear cut answer when asked if he believes in God.
Fame change your face. Stay humble brother
Changed him for the worst. Strong N tendencies popping up.
Absolutely, no doubt, 100%. Jordan Peterson went from someone with valid and balanced things to say about the issues he was trained to understand, to a shameless panderer and apologist for right-leaning religious people, because he basked in the hero worship and enjoyed the fact that he made more money from them than he did from being a psychologist. He is now a frequent embarrassment using his credentials to speak authoritatively about things he has no effing clue about. Ruining lives in the process.
I like JP……. But I think he’s become a character of himself. His sentences are odd and very hard to follow or even understand.
No, you find him hard to follow.
@@joanr3189 thanks for enlightening me on my own opinion
@@joanr3189 If the ideology can’t be simplified to appeal to all then he’s becoming elitist. He’s abandoned those with common sense who can see right through his nonsense if he simplified it. His appearance on dubious shock jock style channels exposes how desperate he is to refocus on those who’ll swallow anything that validates their prejudices. They don’t seek to understand him. They swallow it all and defend it all, regardless of whether they can actually mount a defence of it above it’s your fault you can’t see it.
I don’t see him as sounding any different here than he ever has. He has always talked in riddles.
@@brynleytalbot778 amen!
Why can't he just say the truth? Fame felt great then scary then great. He had more power, made way more money but people demanded he do things that he didn't want to do, etc. My issue with Dr Peterson is this: as a clinical psychologist talking about issues experienced by young men, he used the trust he built up in this regard to promote a political agenda. I wish he would just keep his political views to himself and be the great clinician he is.
Yet here you are, listening, thinking, and commenting. Why is that?
Perhaps he was never that great a clinician either and that’s why re-education is being proposed. Therapists and psychiatrists have mandatory psychoanalysis so their issues are exposed and ironed out. Psychologists don’t. It’s a major flaw. Peterson’s issues might never have arisen if he’d been compelled to take psychoanalysis as a trainee clinical psychologist, and ongoing interventionist therapy, as psychiatrists are required to do. Maybe he’d have handled things far better as a psychiatrist than as a psychologist.
It fed his narcissism to the point where he’s insufferable, if he was ever sufferable.
My suits got asymmetrical eh
Turned him into somebody who no longer listens and constantly interrupts everybody. Turned him into somebody who loves the sound of his own voice. Turned him into someone who is convinced he knows everything about everything , even things way outside his purview. I used to love him. Now I'm just embarrassed for him. I laughed hysterically when he described the change in his audience. It's because he charges a hell of a lot more! And then he became popular with the highfalutins! The people who really need it got crowded out!
Yeah, his description of his new audience definitely revealed something, just probably not what he inferred.
Evangelist to egotist. Iconoclast to indoctrinator. His narcissism has finally emerged from behind the masks he wore to accomplish his meteoric rise into the messianic role he now relishes.
He's blocking every critic on X and advocating for removal of any anonymity on the internet
The cost of tickets to his talks have become more expensive. So of course the audience looks different. 🙄
He appeals to the middle classes who are white collar workers but rose on the disaffected working classes. A true man of the people wouldn’t be chasing fortunes. It’s indicative of greed. But then he’s success obsessed which appeals to that success focused suited audience. Hardly good omens for the disenfranchised he rose to fame on the backs of.
Damn, he looks like a Wall Street CEO now
Money and drugs are two at least
... so what *_encouraging_*_ word_ can be truthfully given to *_autistic_*_ men..._ even those, such as myself, who only find out very late in life?!
You may say, 'Well, dragons don't exist.' It's, like, yes they do - the category 'predator' and the category 'dragon' are the same category. It absolutely exists. It's a superordinate category. It exists absolutely more than anything else. In fact, it really exists.
Jordan Peterson
don't be fooled by psychologists.
Way to take him completely out of context otherwise you’d understand what he means by dragons
yeh. i use a dictionary to define words so i dont get conned @@therobotwithhumanhair5659
He became a flamboyant dresser
Thats all fine and dandy for young men, but in all the hours and hours of Jordan Peterson content I have watched, he has not given a single advice or hinted towards a solution for the middle aged men that has struggled with addictions in their lives other than using the example of being in this situation as a warning that younger individuals can mine out meaning from. This ideology of his works for the winning party, are we just supposed to dispose of the human tragedy that is those individuals that did not get the correct upbringing and/or guidance? Whos to say that this "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" way of looking at the human condition isnt part of the problem? How often do we see JP talk to people that dont agree with him (other than from the period where he broke into fame)?
It gave him enough money to have someone else clean his room 😂
Your point?
@@joanr3189 it was humor, a simple joke ...
He earned it, the woke University of Toronto canceled him and from there he wrote the book and went public….never looked back.
Dudes head got even more rectangular
Fun fact: Theres 30 year old lectures online from Jordan & he talks & sounds almost the exact same
I used to really like the guy, now i have more mixed feelings. From his peacock two-colour suits to the extravagant price of the tickets he sells all over the world to watch him talk sitting in a chair, to his history of crippling depression, how he got hooked on opioids, how he only eats beef, and so on. Incredibly intelligent man for sure, but it's starting to feel like a cult, even though I don't know where to draw the line. The stupid suits and paying a small fortune to watch a guy sit on a chair in an arena got me thinking. He's pushing extremely conservative morals and values, often with very little nuance, but when you look under the hood he is not your benevolent average joe with his heart in the right place. He's a very, very troubled character, and anybody's message should never be taken into consideration without assessing the author himself.
With all due respect, youre just being nit picky for caring about his suits lol.. that’s such a trival thing to focus on. As for the ticket prices, he likely doesn’t set the prices, I’m willing to bet that’s moreso set by whoever is hosting the event or maybe even the venue. Also, hes always been open about his depression and his struggles with alcohol in his 20s. I don’t know why a psychologist who struggles with depression and is offering advice about things he himself is acquainted with would be viewed as a negative. He’s by no means one of this self help guys out here like “look at me I have all my shit together, just do what I do and say and everything we be well in your life like mines” that’s not JPs message… he’s always contended that life (even his life) is tough and the only thing u can do is control your own actions and attitude and push forward…. Just curious, why does him struggling with depression read as a negative for u?
The armchair analysis grasping at straws.
He was always a capitalist chasing that aim. He’s made it. Retrospective assessment will question his supporters claims of his intellectual superiority and whether he was merely a great showman on a stage in university lectures who has upped his game by honing his stagecraft into new arenas. Long gone are the days of intellectuals who could bore student audiences to death with their massive intellects. It’s now entertainment that the dumbed down student body seeks. He rose on that mediocrity. Populism.
He’s explained the unusual diet; there’s nothing cultish about it. As for the ticket prices, when demand exceeds supply, prices go up. I’m not a fan of his either, but leave out the mediocre arguments.
I actually mostly agree. I’ve gone to two of his lectures and the atmosphere in the auditorium was very unsettling. I talked to many of the people attending the second time I went and paid extra to meet Peterson himself. It was almost cult like. And several of the people I spoke to there felt the same way and were as uncomfortable as I was. Many attendees had this insatiable fervor for this man. It felt like worshipping the man more than the message. He seems to have tilted further to the right which appeases his most fervent audience. And this made me think that this is how cults/ religions start.
Fame changed him for the worse and I’ve followed him since 2015
In what way?
How?
I’m been following him for roughly the same timeline. I would disagree and I would say he’s still his authentic self.
@@someguy2016 fame and money
@@sheldon3043 you’re telling me when he sold out to the daily wire nothing changed? He’s completely different to the University of Toronto professor he used to be
If only it had made him terse
stopped following the guy once he got so famous now its too hard to follow what he really standa for
Do you mean that you find it hard to follow hm? That is not the same thing as saying that he is too hard to follow.
Pay attention, and learn.
Has he had a facelift or something?
Every time i see him he looks more and more like a cartoonish Batman villain