Tyler, the Creator Calls Out the Grammys
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- Tyler, the Creator didn't mince words after winning a Grammy for his genre-bending album Igor. In this video, lowmid joins us to discuss Tyler's comments, whether we agree with them, and discuss if Tyler was right or wrong. What do you think? Leave us your thoughts in the comment section.
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Intro smoother than Kinge's head.
😂😂😂😆😆
Damn ken was ready to pretend fefo wasn't coming, even got replacements.But the man was like 5min late XD.
Haha truth! not even 5 mins, like literally right after, was like a min later loll
How do you know they weren't waiting for ages and Feefo didn't tell them to start without him?
@@tashfiqchoudhury We were waiting for ages. He didn't tell us to start without him we just did. Show must go on. He arrived :40 minutes late. We had work to do.
@@kennithbinge Yeah, I figured it was either that or y'all had work to do. Either way, love what you guys are doing man, with the channel and the podcasts.
@@kennithbinge Shout out to Ken & all of u guys, I know u guys are always putting in work and consistently progressing this channel, crazy how far u guys came! we appreciate it!!
But let’s not forget- Ed Sheeran’s God awful album, which had more rap verses than Tyler’s, was nominated for pop. If that can get nominated, so should Tyler’s.
this is an excellent point
Jakob this right here
don’t think it was god awful. just incredibly meh
Oh god, he raps?
d_lightnin
He’s been rapping forever lol. He sucks at it
I disagree with Myke's assessment regarding Urban Contemporary and Pop music.
He's postulating that Lizzo's music having elements of R&B and Soul is why she falls in the Urban Contemporary category. That has to work both ways. Justin Timberlake, Jennifer Lopez, Sam, Billie Eilish, and hundreds of other artist who are considered pop have Soul, R&B, and Rap all in the DNA of their music yet they are afforded the fluidity to be in both categories.
Couldn't agree more he's too willing to just trust the grammies and while ignoring all the past nominations.
the nominations are clearly hypocritical and racist.
Darryl Miller yup fax plus they saying if he wants to win a pop award he should make pop music like jb and all those when theres a lot of subgenres and different styles of pop
What is often lost is that pop music is not necessarily a genre. It is literally an abbreviation for popular music, which based on the period shifts.
There are various examples of this. Consider that the "King of Pop" became such by using elements of Disco, Soul, and R&B to make at that time a very "popular" sound. Michael Jackson, Ray Charles, Adele, Bonnie Raite, Sting, Steely Dan, Sade, Taylor Swift, Norah Jones, Amy Winehouse, and others have all won in the Pop category. That is jazz, Soul, country, folk, disco, and more but we keep acting like it is in itself a category. It's not.
Hence the BS when artists clearly have made popular music but are magically absent from nominations for their contributions. Especially when their music is the most influential.
@@darrylmiller9643 i agree wholeheartedly. And now hip hop/rap is what's popular. Thereby making it pop music.
He literally makes the same point for Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande's music not being categorized as urban.
Tyler wasn’t dissing hip hop with his comments, he was just calling out the inherent racism in some of these categorizations. If Frank Ocean had submitted Blonde for Grammy consideration his category would’ve Urban Contemporary but I honestly see it as more of a baroque pop album. 808s and Heartbreak is electro pop. Ariana Grande’s Thank You Next should actually be in what they deem as Urban Contemporary but they place it in pop because she’s not black. Lizzo’s album should’ve been in the pop category too. I could go on...
Urban Contemporary is Frank Ocean’s category in the eyes of the Grammys. He won Best Urban Contemporary Album in 2013 for Chanel Orange, which actually makes sense for that album, but I agree. Artists like Tyler, Frank, Anderson Paak, Blood Orange, or just any black artist who makes more “experimental” pop music will be categorized as rap or urban contemporary despite those artists being more than those two boxes.
@@flrnce they did that because if cO was in pop category and he still lossed it would've look uber bad, especially with the Macklemore shit right after. This "urban contemporary" is just where they shovel uncategorizable black albums
So Feefo says "if you want to win a pop grammy, make pop"
My question is (and has been for years) what is pop music? Because it can't simply be a "you know it when you hear it" kind of thing. We have to be able to identify it and it would need to be distinct from R&B and Rap and any other category.
I would guess pop music is whatever pop/too 100 radio stations play. You know, the stations that blend top 100 pop/rap/ and even country songs. Even though streaming is huge nowadays I still think spins at certain stations are still relevant as far as award categories.
@@Stanlayy-em4fk So if we are going with that definition of "pop" then it has no real identity as far as the music itself. So imo when they said "well, just make pop music" that doesn't mean anything other than "just make music that gets popular". so an album getting #1 on the billboard charts to me is enough of a qualification.
So my point is that if someone thinks that you have to make an album in the lane of katy perry or taylor swift to be "pop", then there ARE musical qualifications there. But even then, why can't an eclectic, soulful, and imo poppy album like Igor be considered pop? If "pop" music really is gonna be described from a musical perspective, then I wanna know what makes a pop album "pop".
@@Noah-qu9fb
50 Cents "Get rich or die tryin" was Number One on the billboards and had a crossover single "In Da Club" but as a whole was never nominated in any pop categories. I don't think Tyler thinks he makes "pop" cookie cutter music. I think he simply wants certain music to have a chance to be nominated in a major award category, which is what pop song/album of the year is. Which is what Urban/Rap/R&B categories are not. It's certain financial and exposure outcomes linked to winning major awards in the pop category. There seems to be a correlation between winning "Pop" album/song of the year and album/song of the year in general. So basically, I agree with you.
Agree with the fact that pop music is hard to define sonically, however when it comes down to an award show the Grammys u have to compete with the other nominees is all areas, not only if it sounds like Taylor Swift or Katy Perry, but did it sell as much, did the album singles/songs run the charts a few months? Because if your basis is getting a #1 album qualifies you for a nomination then the candidates would look very different
@@Noah-qu9fb It will be a never ending argument imo because "pop" varies depending on the artist/song. There is sometimes an element of 'you know when you hear it' but I would say "pop" is mainly mainstream white acceptance augmented by something that does not quite fit in these other categorizations. BOB was pop at one point for certain songs hiphop radio wouldn't play but white stations would, Drake and Pitbull are pop off the strength of their popularity, Bruno Mars is primarily pop despite the R&B influences, but at the same time I would call an Amy Winehouse, Phantogram or Kali Uchis pop as well. I never heard Winehouse on an R&B or a smooth Jazz station but I heard her all over white pop stations. Phantogram can be called rock but it wouldn't quite fit on a rock station (though what is 'rock' is another conversation). Reggaeton is its own genre but one listen to Kali's Solita and I would expect it to appear on a pop station, it hasn't even cracked the charts afaik. Tyler has white acceptance but I wouldn't really call him mainstream just like I wouldn't call TechN9ne mainstream.
I think y'all missed some of the point of Tyler's argument. When he said "Why can't we just be pop", he was merely using pop music as an example of a different genre black people could be put into instead of always being labelled as Urban. He wasn't specifically saying that he wants to strictly be placed into pop instead of anything else.
The production quality has gone through the roof with these recent videos, I see y’all man. It’s been amazing to see the growth over these years
Glad you acknowledged it, they're really establishing their brand
I love the growth... but i gotta say, sometimes I do feel a bit nostalgic for that raw, under-the-Atlanta-beltway, heated hip hop discussion.
Right?! it’s almost been 10 years! It’s awesome!
MistahTee 🙏
"Tyler doesn't make music like Katy Perry!"
And Billie Eillish does?
@Brooklyn Medina but no rapping tho
@@cai6972 Black Eyed Peas got nominated and won plenty of pop Grammy's. Their music has nothing to do with Katy Perry's either and literally 3/4 members rap.
Answering the op: Myke does acknowledge by the end that the Grammy's broadening their criteria to let Ariana Grande's music fit in with other more typical pop acts in that category, they should do so for black folk. Charlie XCX does not make typical top 40 either but it is still pop music and competing within that realm. Drake has released plenty of albums filled with mostly crossover music, which is really commercial and has 0 pop nominations, not even for singles, which is ridiculous, even more ridiculous considering that Post Malone thing.
Closer to Katy Perry than Igor was, yes. Billie's basically a dreamier version of Lorde and Lorde is most definitely Pop
And Lorde
Just say it y'all want to keep pop a white girl thang.
Also, the Grammys are BS. It's voted on by people who haven't even listened to the albums. (I've known Grammy voters.) Jethro Tull infamously won a Heavy Metal Grammy. They are not heavy metal. At all.
I bet they either go on social media and just vote for whose names appeaeed first or if they got "critical acclaim" (that a lot times are paid by record labels so they are BS too) or "hey,I remember tyler the creator,he got earthquake my child listen too,the rest of album should be good" case
The Oscar voters straight up admit to not watching films, and STILL voting against them
Pop Music: The terms "popular music" and "pop music" are often used interchangeably, although the former describes all music that is popular and includes many diverse styles.
..Is Igor not a popular album with diverse styles?...
Also, Taylor Swift makes pop/rock synth-pop and country/pop. Why can't Tyler be pop/rap pop/r&b?, pop/soul?...
Jim Jones because Tyler is still incorporating Rap elements to his music. Its not that hard bro. He is on the “best rap album” category because his music still has a lot of rap influence
Jim Jones why do you think that Childish Gambino, a black rapper, made a non-hip hop album and people actually recognized it as a whole other genre? Because he didn’t included any elements from rap! Not even a single thing! Awaken My Love is a full r&b/soul project that didn’t touched on hip hop elements and thats why the grammys didn’t even mentioned it on rap categories.
If Tyler doesn’t want his music to be labeled as “rap” then he should actually shift his sound to a complete other thing.
I feel you on the whole "rap elements" argument. When I listen to an album that opens with a rock song with no lyrics (Igor's Theme), then follows with a song that is all sung (EarfQuake), I'm not particularly considering it a rap album. The only two pure rap songs on this album are What's Good and Magic Wand. The rest of it is super poppy/R&B with some rap involved.Now seeing as you said music should have no rap elements to be considered rap.. what about when Billie Eilish or Linkin Park rap in their most popular songs and dont get put into an urban/rap category? I'm genuinely curious.
Rafael Bejaran becaus r&b and soul are URBAN GENRES so if you put rap into the mix, its difficult to just separate it from it. I don’t know why people don’t get it.
I am here for this content! The dead end network hitting 2020 hard!! ✊🏿✊🏿✊🏿✊🏿
They missed the substance of Tyler’s argument entirely.
Sergio Izzaqt Yeaah this was a very surface level and disappointing discussion
Sergio Izzaqt and Hus Bus: Can you tell us what the substance was that we missed then? I'm genuinely curious.
Myke C-Town The main point i think you guys were overlooking was the categorization of Pop. Mainly feefo saying that if tyler wanted to get a pop award he should make “pop”. I think the main point of tyler’s argument are the grammies are slow to realize that the change in music has made hip hop much more integrated in pop than maybe they’re willing to recognize. And because of that, any time a black artist makes that mix of genres, it’s only labeled rap. If a white artist makes a blend it can more often than not be given the pop label and be with the bigger internationally known and awarded acts. His album is not a rap album and i think it disrespects the artists work to disregard what they categorize it as. And the fact that there’s a discussion about what genre it is gives more credence to the fact that it isn’t a rap album. It’s pop. It blends different genres of popular music. I think this is more of what tyler was getting at. Along with the urban category being code for segregating black artists. A big part of his argument was about making black artists feel included without really including them.
@@mykectown and on top of what others have said, you guys also don't seem too familiar with Bedroom Pop, an emerging genre many considered to be pioneered by artists like Steve Lacy of The Internet. Igor and a lot of Flower Boy is Bedroom Pop
@@P0k3D0nd3M4cG I'm familiar with that as I've talked about it on my channel. But that shit still falls in the line of Urban Contemporary to me.
And I also think Tyler should’ve been at least nominated for general Album of the Year, as opposed to specifically rap or urban or even pop, especially because of the album’s genre fluidity
I don't understand why the aoty nominations aren't all the winners of all the other album categories
S1MPLET0N yeah I never understood that either
@@s1mplet0n94 cause it's a shit show... has little to do with actual musical merit and more with what they feel would make "a good show" and I'm sure labels are paying off the Grammy committee too (I can't prove that but seems pretty clear to me).
Alan Katende the fact that Lil Nas X got nominated for Album of the Year with a fucking EP which was average at best and Igor didn’t get nominated is insane.
Tyler should get album of the year, but anyways you can't expext nothing from the grammys
Beezy is this beat yours? Lord have Mercy I gotta hear your new productions, oof
Khoi Kidd trash
I was just thinking that!! fucking love that outro beat, so euphoric, u could hear the Dilla/Madlib influence
Andres Meraz why you gotta come into this page with that negativity?
That tablet Ken has is the same one they wrote the 10 commandments on
You guys went hard on this conversation. A lot of other channels kept it sub 10 minutes and surface deep. Really liked your in-depth take.
The Grammys has their own definition of a rap album and Igor doesn’t fit it (I think their definition is that the album has to 55% rapping, but people have done the math on Igor and it’s only like 40% rap). Also pop is a super varied genre. Not all pop has to be Katy perry or Taylor swift. It’s indisputable that Lizzo’s album is a pop album, and just because there’s rap on it, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered that. Thank u, next had a lot of hip hop influence and rap on it, but no ones gonna argue it’s anything but pop. I think narrowing the definition of pop down to “Katy perry or Taylor swift” is discrediting the genre and all the artists who experiment within the genre, as pop has some of the most varied sound of any genre. Imo, Igor is a pop album more than it is a rap album. I think saying that it’s a rap album because it has some rap on it is equivalent to calling a gorillaz album a rap album.
I was so confused when Fefo walked through the door lol
Jon Paul III damn they couldn't wait five minutes 😭😂
The “pop” genre in the current climate oozes tiny bits of elements of black music either it be sonics, way you dress, speech etc. Pop music cherry picks things they like about black music and makes a catchier version of it. Hth you gonna make a urban contemporary when the “mainstream” music is just a collage of different elements of black music?
I really regret posting this gonna get lots of hate lol
Tim Sohn nah man I agree🤙🏽
Tim Sohn nah b for the most part this is correct lol
Damn, perfect description lol because Beyonce n Michael Jackson got rock, country sounding, r&b, hip hop sounding songs but they're "pop". I don't think u have to "change" Urself if u wanna be Pop. Michael had his own sound. It was inspired by other genres but when u hear a MJ instrumental, u know it's MJ and not some random here today, gone tomorrow Pop artist. If u wanna be "trendy" U could quickly get into the Pop catagory. Make a song like Starships n they'll take u in quick lol but the longevity of it? Ehhhhhhhhh lol
For me, “rap” is more traditional, placin more focus on bars and/or hard-knockin beats (freddie gibbs, nas, meek mill, asap ferg, etc.)
“Hip-hop” includes all of that too but is more of an umbrella term to me that allows for genre bendin and sonic experimentation (tyler, death grips, jpegmafia, kanye, etc.)
the difference is pop music nowadays has influence from hip hop. trap beats, 808s, rattling hihats. ariana grandes thank u next album was HEAVILY inspired by hiphop and she also raps on the album. but thats a pop album not a rap album. i think thats what tyler was referring to when it comes to genre bending. he made a pop album, influenced heavily by rap, rnb and dance. rap is pop now. pop isnt a specific genre.
also, if you look at the recipients and nominees of the urban contemporary category are ALL black artists.
@@zip5644 To be fair, if a white person somehow won that award the internet would lose its Shit lol.
Jeffrid thats the point. back in 2016? i think? the weeknd won urban contemporary for beauty behind the madness. that was a pop album with r&b/trap influence. in 2013 frank ocean won for channel orange, which is also a pop album with r&b/rap influence. the category is basically just saying “black people music” because all pop means is popular music. beauty behind the madness was one of the biggest albums that year. and frank also had charting singles for his album.
This debate it's a bit weird because when the DEHH crew are speaking about pop, it seems like they're thinking about what pop was in the 00s when nowadays pop records are highly influenced by sounds that are usually found in R&B, Rap or even Trap records (Ariana Grande's album is a clear example). To me Tyler Igor is 100% a Pop album, especially acknowledging how Post Malone records and albums have been categorized as Pop
Ummm did you ever hear justified? Came out in 2002, completely R&B based. This been going on for damn near 20 years
I think what Tyler meant by the pop part isn’t that he necessarily wants to be recognized as a pop artist or anything. I just think that was an example because I’m sure they’ve been multiple albums that have been put into the rap category besides his that aren’t traditionally rap. So it comes off kinda like “Well you’re black so it must be rap” and they toss you into that category no matter how different or genre bending your project may be and if it is super borderline pop you get the Urban Contemporary category which is pretty much the same thing. It’s like they categorize black peoples projects solely off of their skin and not the music itself. That’s how I took it anyway
Most Pop albums these days have "Rapping" components anyways, possibly even more than IGOR did. Tyler only really raps on New Magic Wand and Whats Good, but the rest of the music is definitely not rap.
Hazem Ibrahim he doesn’t rap on I think? Gone, gone? And like every song besides Igor’s theme and are we still friends?
Ken looking like black Aang rn
Igor has like 3 verses on it (exaggerating. I haven’t counted). If Igor is a rap album idk what rap is anymore.
Theres like one at the end of Earfquake and whats good. I think thats it
Omari T what’s good, puppet... etc
he raps on every song but 2 or 3 wym
Emmanuel Tavarez thats why I said exaggerating. And I said verses not song. Most of that is not complete verses, just small pieces of the songs
Are we ever going to get that one conversation from Is the mic still on that you guys wanted to save for video?
I see where Tyler is coming from. His album had enough Pop & Rock elements to win or get nominated for those awards. They won’t us to remain “Black”. Instead of acknowledging the Fact that we are great at all types of things. They throw us in categories to make us seem less than .
Nah, because the case for urban contemporary falls apart when you bring up Ariana Grande, whose work sonically would place her in either Hip-Hop or Urban Contemporary, but is somehow Pop
The Label submits and they select the category, I remember TDE claiming they had selected Humble into the best song or best record category. They wouldn't be able to directly do that if they couldn't select the category and you would have to naturally say it applied to every other genre and their categories.
Also keep in mind the labels can do this without the artist consent. There have been some cases where this was the case.
TanTan labels can submit and select the category...but the Grammys have final say where it goes....joe budden was talking about this on his podcast
When you are a member of an awarding body (I get screeners to vote for films) the films are submitted to nearly every category. You decide what you think they are good for.
Saying "It doesn't sound like Justin Bieber or Katy Perry" doesn't make it not pop. And the fact is white artists, even with R&B/Soul influences, are going to be more accepted into pop categories and are also into the Urban Contemporary "genre", unlike black artists who usually can *only* snag that category, which was specifically made to highlight black music in the 70s bc they weren't recognized by other genres. It isn't necessary anymore and the Grammys just started using it. That's what Tyler's arguing. And its not white accceptance Tyler wants, he just doesn't want to be confined by the industry to just being a rapper/hip hop artist. Saying 808s and Igor are more rap albums than anything because there's instances of rapping on it is denying the actual musical structure of the album. "Rap" isn't a structured genre, it would be hip hop. And Igor is far from hip hop.
I don't even know what to call Igor and 808s anymore dude.
The only reason Tyler was given a rap album of the year was because they wanted to give him a Grammy but not AOTY because they already decided it was going to billie
Rahsaan speak on it!
Rahsaan I'm confused. So why wasn't he given the Urban Contemporary award then?
Myke C-Town I think it may be due to his reputation as a rapper. I think that’s what shot him in the foot with his category placement because they may look at Igor as a variation of rapping/hiphop.
Myke C-Town Because you also have to give Lizzo a “Big” award because she also had a big year. Now the Blacks can’t be mad that there biggest artists that year didn’t get at least one Grammy.
@@darrickfranklin7096 Oh I see what y'all are saying. I think I misread the og comment. The Grammy's wanted to give him one just because they wanted to, but they knew he wouldn't have won in those other categories? If that's what y'all are saying I get it.
I been here for 7 years now I still don't understand why don't you have at least 10 million subscribers this is easily best music discussion channel ever not just on youtube
People really classify 808s&heartbreak hiphop? I always thought it was more synth pop/R&B.
Ken treats that giant iPad like a family bible
DEHH conversations are their best content and Ask Sophie segment
OutKast won album of the year, Speakerboxx/Love Below After winning best rap album the project before w Stankonia
An album can only be considered in one category at the Grammys. For example Drake’s Scorpion is half rap and half r&b, the Grammy rules state that Drake can’t be nominated for both best rap album and best r&b album, only one of the two (in his case he only got nominated for general Album of the Year). The labels also do not submit albums with the category. The Grammy committee decides which genre fits the album best, meaning Tyler was put in Rap as opposed to submitting for Rap.
In years to come, music is going to get more and more difficult to categorize.
i find it a bit sad when rap artists think 'transcending rap' = artistic growth. i can see where tyler is coming from but if you look at the last like, 20 winners of pop album of the year: billie eilish (ok kinda similar in experimentation and weirdness), ariana grande, ed sheeran, adele, taylor swift, sam smith, bruno mars... tyler does not fit in that at all. the grammys are trash and always have been
I don't think it's that. Tyler has said sonce Flower Boy that he's wanted to make pop music, so the one time he made an album that was almost exclusively pop/pop-infused sonically and thematically, he still gets placed into the Rap/Hip-Hop category.
yung jaffacake killah look I love Tyler for speaking on this , but let not avoid the truth they straight up use tyler Igor as a pawn just to appease the hip hop community winner. But they so fucking stupid that we would assume all tyler does is rap. I bet they just looked at the cover art associate everything Tyler has done in the past and just gave it to him
I think another way to interpret what he said is that if Ariana was black, her album would be in the Urban Contemporary category. It's like the "black pop" category.
@@cai6972 this is a good point actually, i think you're right. even looking back, justin timberlake would probably get the pop nom rather than 'urban'
@@ezwar99 good point
Michael Jackson’s music was still foundationaly Rnb. While he did genre bend he was RnB at his core. Myke said something I thought was telling. Black artists specifically hip hop artists are the highest selling artists and the most popular artists in the world but they’re not considered as pop. What does that tell us about the state of music industry?
I'm interested to know how y'all feel about Diddy and Ma$e.
hip hop is actually the biggest genre in the world lmao
I feel what tyler said. He is more then a rapper and his album should have been in multiple categories not just rap...shit not rap at all but it could of been aoty nominated or pop or rock or R&B. They just basically said he is a rapper so give him the rap category. This nigga sung on 90 percent of the damn album lmaooo its an Album...not a rap album or pop album...its just a great album imo and it seems like grammys just said give him a grammy cuz he is dope but billie and lizzo more popular so fuck it lolol
Bundy yep, exactly.
I see DEHH, i click
Something to consider is "pop" is always changing. "Pop" is the most popular type of music at the time. So for quite some time now, hip-hop has been pop. Though we have grown accustomed to this sort of "pop sound" with artists mentioned such as katy perry and taylor swift.
Just a lil appreciation post for Rod's videography style. It's so amazing
Before this I saw the lil b video, that legendary video. You can really see the growth in this channel
Here is an interesting twist on the matter of genre defining: If Pop Culture is in a constant state of change according to time, how come Hip-Hop/Rap artists have been excluded since Hip-Hop culture took over Pop Culture? I think there is a reluctance to truly accommodate the development of Hip-Hop Culture. Since artists like The Fugees (as an early example) who could do more with music than just keep it Rap, there has been an expansion in the realm of Hip-Hop Culture.
MJ was making music with elements of R&B/Soul in it. In which category do they nominate Lil Nas X? I would say he goes far more Pop than MJ. I personally see how jagged/jarring the labelling of these categories can be for artists. It feels like an intentional separation without the backing of adequate merit. I still question the definitive sound of Pop. #scarecrowzw
Bruh kin looks like he went back to 2016 kin 😆
IGOR is a R&B/Neo-Soul album with rap features, but the features are all him.
Regarding black artists and pop music, for a while, I don't think anyone would've argued that Rihanna wasn't a pop artist. Look at her biggest singles from back then: Shut Up and Drive, Disturbia, Diamonds, Don't Stop the Music... all traditional pop songs. She started adding R&B, Soul, and even rap elements later, sure, but before that, she was purely pop.
"Although much of the music that appears on record charts is seen as pop music, the genre is distinguished from chart music. Pop music often borrows elements from other styles such as urban, dance, rock, Latin, and country; nevertheless, there are many key elements that define pop music. Identifying factors usually include short to medium-length songs written in a basic format, also known as perrypoetry (often the verse-chorus structure), as well as common use of repeated choruses, melodic tunes, and hooks." - From Wikipedia.
Why do you have a debate on whether or not an artist falls into a category without discussing the categorisation he is claiming to fall within? His argument is effectively that the label of "Urban Music" is a construct with which to take those elements of pop music that are synonymous with black culture and to segregate them from pop. You should be able to win awards for being a rap album and a pop album because albums with rap in them CAN be pop albums. Pop is an amalgamation of many genres that fits a framework. Saying a rap album can't be pop is like saying something blue can't be a car. Most blue things aren't cars, but obviously cars can also be blue.
This Urban Contemporary category created by the Grammy's seemed to be created to encompass this emerging genre of alternative hip-hop/r&b music, i.e Frank Ocean, Miguel, Janelle Monae, and The Weeknd, that incorporates elements of indie rock, electronic and experimental music, and other genres not traditionally produced by black artists and/or popular with black audiences.
THE THUMBNAIL AND NEW INTRO AND NEW SET ARE ALL FIIIIRE ✊🏿 😤🔥
i live when yall do these discussion videos. maybe even more than the reviews
I think this whole conversation has been derailed by one thing, I dont think Tyler really meant to say Pop as in the Pop genre category, he meant more of the general categories that tend to be dominated by Pop artists like Album or Record of the year. He feels that so called "Urban" artists are being classed only in the Urban categories with no way to get some of those more largescale awards
They should let the artist decide what genre category to submit it to. To avoid this happening again. Tyler has a point, hip hop artists get boxed in.
Kinda reminds me of Kanye and fashion, he is seen as a rap artist and celebrity in the high fashion world. Those labels are restrictions that structures within fashion enforce, and didn't want him to transcend labels. Yeezus sounds like all the frustration with that, put into sonic form. Also think that is why Yeezus had no conventional album art. It is a minimal pretty much a blank canvas. It is like a visual way of communicating the removal of labels being placed on him by the media that shape how he is perceived by the world. Which is what the lyrical content of album gets at.
Igor is a pop album with rap influence. Blonde is a dream pop album with rap influences. 808s is a synthpop album with rap influence. He wasn't saying every rap album should be pop.
I wonder if it has happened the other way around. For example has a pop artist do a rock album, but still get placed in pop.
Isn't Justin Timberlake did a kinda country album or something?
Feefo with the entrance xD
I think its more of how I said before during the IGOR album review if you listen to the artist Theophilus London music it sounds similar to his type of music which is consider pop at the time, but he does rap, so then it can be called pop rap or rnb, hip hop, pop, and electrohop which I think is a better name for IGOR since its genre bending
Yo the production level for these videos have been ♨️♨️ lately
Tbh, I’ve always thought of IGOR as a Pop/pop rap album. The heavy synth and disco influence does it for me. That urban category has got to go imo too.
I think something to add here is Tyler want's to re-define what the sound of Pop is, like how Brockhampton wanted to change the perception of what a Boy-Band should look and sound like. Tyler in his post-Grammy interview stated the performance meant more to him than the award because he wanted to bring something new to the table.
is Hey Ya.... Hip Hop??
edit: instrumental at the end of this video is Dope
I love Tyler mans went to the Grammys with his own merch on no suit. He brought Jasper and his mom. Jasper brought his fucking switch up on stage when Tyler won. OF for life man.
With all of the backlash that the Grammys have gotten in the last cpl years from rap/hip hop... Does anyone know if they've ever fired back? Retaliated?
They will not say nothing but, like these guys say, next time they will just ignore you and then people will complain about hip hop and black artists not getting awards
Igor IS a pop album with elements of hip-hop and soul but it's mainly a pop album.
Urban contemporary is dubbed the Frank Ocean award. It’s like an alternative R&B category.
I think its alternative
Aye what song is playing in the background?
16:44 for Ken saying the new word "Corright"
The first thing I took away from this video was that Ken shaved lol I was digging the mountain man beard
808s is not a rap album. Igor is not a rap album. They are both kind of R&B or soul/pop mixed with some hip hop elements. Mixed with other shit too. But I would call Igor more pop/indie
Just because Igor doesn’t sound like a Katy perry album doesn’t mean it’s not pop. A kendrick Lamar album doesn’t sound like ghostface killa album but their both rap albums
I definitely understand Tyler’s argument. It goes all the way back to Frank Ocean, who got snubbed from Album of the year for Channel Orange. instead they decided to then create the category for Urban Contemporary. If I’m not mistaken that wasn’t a category before then at the Grammy’s and EVERYBODY knew Frank shouldve won album of the year that year. It’s stuff like that where i can understand why black artists can be frustrated with the system that the Grammy’s present and why Tyler in particular is upset by the category. Not because his friend got snubbed but because we get boxed into that category when white counterparts like Justin Bieber don’t, and then we don’t get recognized for the larger awards that night like Album of the Year, song, etc.
Y'all going hard with the content that's what's up
What is that vaporwave instrumental song in the background?????
He shouldn’t have won for rap album that wasn’t a rap album. It would of been different if they created a hip hop award
the thing is that not all pop music sounds the same. i definitely do not think tyler made a rap album although it does have hip hop influences. but literally most pop artists nowadays are making hip hop influenced. i'd say that igor is more of a pop album than a rap album. but i'm not sure i would feel comfortable placing it firmly in a single genre. billie eilish isn't making traditional pop music either but she still dominated all of those categories. the pop music landscape is changing and i think the grammy's should change with it
16:12 Great analysis Myke, I feel like this is what it comes down to, and the question surrounding Tyler being put in a category due to his race became interesting when bringing up different artists who are and aren’t white and how their music compares.
17:41 Rahmil had a question.
Despite the pop, funk and R&B aesthetics, of the 11 songs on the album there’s rapping on 6 of them. 7 if you feel Kanye’s short spoken word-esque verse on “Puppet” counts. I’d probably say it’s a Rap album based on that fact.
DJ Devinstation 7 rings ain’t a rap song but it has rapping
Album features mostly singing
DJ Devinstation it really isn’t, Tyler explicitly made that clear before the album dropped
DJ Devinstation you don’t consider Tyler’s verse on Puppets rapping?
Bandstand I think I would after revisiting it for sure.
Nice discussion. The issue in my mind, seems to be that pop has never sounded the same throughout time. In the 50’s, the Beatles were considered pop. Michael Jackson was the king of pop and of course pop sounds a lot different now. So what is pop?
So what do we catagorize Billie Eilish as? Her music is unquestionably influenced by rap and hip hop (trap heavy production, lots of spoken delivery focused on rhyme). She, however, dominated the "Pop" category. Why is she not considered Urban Contemporary? These unspoken rules aren't hard and fast, but there is clear bias here.
Kelly Clarkson's Meaning of Life album is a soul and R&B album, but she was nominated for Best Pop Vocal Album at the Grammys. So how was she nominated in that category, but Lizzo wasn't? But Lizzo did win Best Pop Solo Performance. The Grammy's categories just don't seem to make sense.
The grammys now period doesn't make sense in itself...
Prince has won for both Pop and R&B awards at the Grammys.
IGOR is not Rap, it's synth-pop R&B album
It’s not about winning, it’s about separating the limits and perceptions of black music as a whole by mainstream media “Why can’t we just be pop”, is a metaphorical statement of why can’t we just be something other than rap/urban. It doesn’t necessarily have to be pop. But if you were to categorize Igor as another genre other than rap/urban, it would be pop. Earfquake for example.
Tyler shouldn’t have been put in a genre category, he should’ve been nominated in the “Album of the Year” category
Would Janet Jackson Velvet Rope be considered pop or urban contemporary?
I think that album lead the way for what the Grammy's consider urban contemporary. It heavily defied the genres of r&b and pop and constructed a template for artists like Frank Ocean, Miguel, SZA, and Janelle Monae.
6:19 synchronized viewers
From what it sounded like he was saying, I think he meant more hypothetically speaking, why can’t people like him be nominated for pop categories. He said himself that he was split because he’s never been truly accepted in the rap community, and the first album he does that has more singing than rap, it wins best rap album. To him, it’s like finally breaking the cage of being labeled as a rapper, only to win a rap award. It’s also kind of weird because he’s always been more vocal about making music that’s in the style of a Pharrell than a JAY-Z. Idk, it’s hard to know exactly what he was trying to say because of how brief the statement was and how you can use “pop” and “urban” pretty loosely
okay but ya gotta look at it like this, ariana grande's thank u next (love the album btw), is heavily r&b and hip hop influenced and doesn't sound like "traditional pop", but that shit is not nominated in urban contemporary, it's only getting nominated in pop, so if that's a variation of pop, why isn't igor? (not that i think igor is a pop album, it's more alternative to me)
Kinge got sum gems at 9:35
Isn't hop hop more than rapping?
That’s why I differentiate between rap and hip-hop. To me, ‘hip-hop’ is the genre and ‘rap’ is the act/skill. You don’t call everything that isn’t rap ‘sung’ music.
Hip hop is the most popular genre in the music industry today. By definition. It's the new pop. Pop has so many rap elements, not only instrumentally but lyrically also. Cadence, beats, voice, it's all genre bending, it's really up to the final album piece and how versatile the artist is. Tbh. Music should be genre-less..
Tyler is basically saying he created a different version of pop music /which also means (pop-ular music) ...so it’s not rap it’s meant to be pop but because award people didn’t understand how it was pop based they put it in hip hop , but honestly it’s not a rap album it really is pop music taken and molded in the form of Tyler ..(hence he used his own production on the whole album )
prettyboiJustin No matter what it is it’s trash
*I'm tired of us seeking for the Grammys & Oscars for validation. Hip Hop winning as a culture its the Top Genre in the world.*