The second person who managed to beat the Kobiyashi Maru test was Captain Nog (as a cadet), who surrendered immediately against the simulated enemy forces and tried to negotiate a price. This tactic was never considered when programming the test, and the test promptly crashed.
Even in Kirk's day, surrender wasn't an option. Your ship would still be destroyed with all hands because it is supposedly a test of how you face death.
In the New Frontier books, Mackenzie Calhoun beat the Kobiyashi Maru by opening fire on the freighter, destroying it, and the incoming ships, when it's cargo exploded. His reasoning? They were already dead, being bait in the trap, and his first duty was to his ship. Yes, it was cold to kill the hostages, but with no chance of saving them, their survival was no longer a priority. The admiral who conducted the test was impressed.
@@jamesbuchanan4414 He also saved the hostages from a more painful, drawn-out death at the hands of the Romulans. So you could say that he did them a favor by killing them quickly.
@jaysonborn Like The Sisko, Kirk is a moral officer. He will do the right thing regardless of the rules or the consequences. Picard was a rules officer. He stuck to Federation and Starfleet directives despite the morality of the situation. We can argue back and forth over who was the better CO, but at least none of them were as bad as Janeway.
I agree...plus the way Bones looked at Kirk, his faith reaffirmed in his old friend, when he realized Jim had defied the odds yet again with another clutch performance, was priceless.
This is why today's Star Trek movies will never compare to greats like The Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock and The Undiscovered Country. Moviemakers today think that lots of fast paced action, CGI, violence, sex etc is what keeps audiences engaged, which may be true for very short sequences, but if the basic premise of the movie sucks, without a good storyline, thought provoking dialogue, good character interplay, great acting, directing etc then it all goes down the toilet. Nicholas Meyer is the key architect as to why this movie and ST6 were such great successes.
@@Serpent042G It’s more a question of tone than anything. For example in “The Trouble With Tribbles” when Kirk remarks how Tribbles like Vulcans, listen to the smarminess in his voice when he responds with “obviously Tribbles are very perceptive captain.” 🤣
@@josephsheranda That whole scene is fantastic. Taking into account the whole wide breadth of Spock’s character and growth it’s kinda amazing watching this wise, old, and jolly Vulcan give his younger more apprehensive self some life advice. Having the opportunity to simultaneously relive those glory days for just a fleeting moment and pay it forward on a new generation just starting their grand journey.
One of the greatest moments in film. Not so much sci-fi, but a life lesson. The junior officer tried to school the senior officers on protocol, then the senior officers get the last giggle with the very protocols that the junior officer was preaching before. And it speaks to how well the old sea dogs know one another.
To be fair, if Kirk had listened to protocol being recited to him by Saavik earlier, the Enterprise would have had its shields up before the attack began.
Kirk's job on this mission is teaching junior officers. He never stops doing that. He doesn't even let a battle with Kahn interrupt his teaching. He's here to chew bubble gun and train cadets, and he is all out of bubble gum.
Saavik is wrong. Kirk faced impossible odds and death multiple times during his career. He always found a way to win. Not only was he stubborn in his rejection of a "no win" scenario, he knew to trust in those around him. The final decision was always his to make as captain, but he always solicited input from his officers. And benefited from plot armor, of course.
All true. But I think the movie is being a little more specific. "Facing death" in this instance is more akin to Captain Smith going down with the Titanic than to Captain Kirk bluffing his way out of destruction with the Corbomite Maneuver.
Not only that, but earlier in the movie, Spock even noted that Kirk only reprogrammed the simulation for his 3rd attempt at the test, and he'd taken it twice before.
Ikr...Kirk should have been like "bish, never faced death? You ever been on a deserted planet with an angry gorn on your ass trying to kill ya?...yeah, I didn't think so" 😂
Nothing gets through plot armor, except the dreaded "Badly written sequel", or a Director who doesn't know the source material well enough to deserve the chair. Those two can kill off anything.
When I was in the army, I "changed the conditions of the test" during EIB night land nav. In other words, I used a map that we were not allowed to have that I had hidden in a piece of my gear that nobody would think to ever look. You ain't cheating, you ain't trying!
My tech school instructor told us "If you don't cheat, you've shown no initiative whatsoever. Then you should get out of the military." Also: "of course when you do, I'll catch you & throw you out as I've seen it all. In my experience, those that cheat (well) work 10 times harder than those that don't so they don't get caught." So he said if you don't, you will get kicked out & if you do, same thing. Basically find a third option (with cheating) and so well that you get away with it. Being good on your feet to adapt and win and not get caught & charged. Actually great for those in combat.
Translated to the real world-- you're a soldier-- "Mission, Men, Me"--- anything that can be done to complete the mission and preserve the troops as best as can be within the Rules of Land Warfare is all good. 4th AD used Michelin tourist maps motoring across France-- I don't think anyone gigged them for that
The funny thing I've always found about the Kobiyashi Maru is that it's the one test that actually encourages you to "cheat". Even in real life, we are always faced with supposed no-win situations. It's how you deal with the situation to turn it around from no-win to at least a draw is what matters. Even the guy that technically surrendered in order to negotiate a ransom was still trying to turn the whole situation around into a more favorable one. Despite Kirk changing the programme to change the parameters of the (test) situation is not cheating. He merely added other factors, which could happen in real life, but maybe not included in the coded instructions of the simulation. In the end, as Kirk himslef stated, it is not a test of command ability, but the test of character when faced with a dire situation. Basically, do you just lie down and give up, or do you do everything you can no matter the odds.
Correct. When the rules are structured in such a manner as to ensure a no-win situation, then you have to say "F**K THE RULES" and think outside the box.
@@christopher9000p Sometimes, even 'F__k the rules' results in a loss. Nobody likes to lose, but some losses are more tolerable tan others. Defeat doesn't pack as much of a sting if you're left with at least some way to claw your way back into the fight.
Just like the battle with Khan--Kirk won the battle before it even started. With the test he re-programed the victory conditions, with Khan he has a well-trained crew that can repair a crippled starship AND fight a battle with "partial main power." Khan didn't have a chance.
It's not even a technicality. His coded message was merely an exaggeration. But it was enough to mislead the inexperienced Khan as to the true status of Enterprise.
Yep. To lie he would had to have been addressing Khan directly. He is completely correct: its simple exaggeration as part of a code. He was addressing Kirk who totally understood his meaning behind the coded message.
The cheating was in reprogramming the test. The new parameter was not a cheat. Honestly I think his solution to the Kobayashi Maru scenario was what eventually but not too long later got him command of a long term voyage vessel. Even though the test was not a pass-fail, it did show how a commander would perform under extreme circumstances. Kirk showing the capacity to think outside the box would be something valuable in a commander who would be expected to have first contact missions.
@@samsonguy10k Was it cheating, though? I believe there were no rules against doing what he did. If there were, Kirk would've been disqualified. Instead, he got a frickin' commendation. The common assumption (shared by all the cadets and everyone else for that matter) is that there are rules against reprogramming the test when in fact there aren't and Kirk went AGAINST common beliefs ("out-of-the-box" thinking, as it were) thereby proving his worth as a potential Captain.
Brilliant showcase of how age, wisdom and experience can be assets. This scene is Kirk getting his moxie back after getting caught with his breeches down in the first battle.
Almost the first time in Star Trek they were able to do that effect. It was actually done in a TOS episode, That Which Survives, where we can see Kirk move and react to the transporter crewman being attacked during beaming. That was likely a very expensive scene to edit. TMP almost counts, but what happened during the accident was more a stop motion effect.
One of the greatest moments in Star Trek- and the quintessential Kirk moment. Kirk never, ever gave up or gave in. The test, in his eyes, was the cheat-it removed any chance or hope at all of saving the ship and his crew, and Kirk would not accept that at any time in all of his career. In the Corbomite Manuever, Spock was ready to give up, using the analogy of chess-when you are in checkmate, yield. Kirk changed it to poker-bluff and play for time, and don’t yield. Spock never again suggested giving up, because Kirk was right. Character counts most when it’s needed most- when everything looks lost, you look again, and again, until you see that way out. And for nothing else, it showed that Kirk was not a manual bound, rule bound drone that only knew what the book said. He went by the book until it became necessary to use his own judgement because that was what was needed for the situation, because not every situation could be covered by the book. James Kirk was a CAPTAIN-every inch a leader who was confident and self aware. What guy wouldn’t want to be Kirk?
@ZylonBane Yes, I'm not disappointed as much if I keep low expectations. Even so, it's getting harder nowadays. SJW virtue signalling contests to see who can check the most boxes has taken the place of clever plots.
Btw, for anyone who thinks what Kirk did was dishonorable or whatever, Sun Tzu says in the 'Art of War', "All warfare is based on deception". Or to put it another way, "Cheating is perfectly acceptable: in fact the more you lie, cheat and mislead your opponents, the greater your chances of winning". The whole book is basically an instruction manual on how to do exactly that.
Kirk: "I don't like to lose" Saavik: "Then you never face that situation" Kirk: "Bitch, don't they teach you kids anything at Fleet Academy? I have already saved this universe a dozen times well before you learned how to keep your hair in Starfleet Regulations" *Few movies later* Also Kirk: *Saves the day again...By going back in time... in a old and busted Bird of Prey... so he can grand theft auto a couple of whales and bring them back to the present time*
This is what made the original Star Trek so beloved among fans. Characters you actually became invested in and the writing was so good that you could feel the urgency in the acting, like in this scene. None of the new Star Trek shows have ever come close to the original shows. Discovery, Picard, they have both failed at this.
Just like in other ruined franchises the past few years, its a combination of bad or non existing writing talent and pushing a political agenda, its not art anymore but a platform to those untalented hags.
Oh dear 😅, people who grew up with the older Trek who accepted the political narrative and agenda of Trek of the time as they had not yet fixed their own world views now look upon new Trek with the eyes of someone who has fixed their opinions and political views. Trek is doing what it’s always done, it’s the people in comments like this who have changed. Or is someone going to tell me the TNG Sub Rosa was fantastic writing?
We were very lucky to have lived growing up in the mid 70’s into the 80’s. These were the last best decades for America when the best block buster movies were born and still have sequels to this date in 2023… WOW! 2023…I never even imagine living in this time I used to think 1999 was gonna be a big deal. Now 58 I see the world not as it was promised to us when technology started to boom in our decades. While much of it is amazing , most has destroyed society in many ways.
My favorite interpretation of this scene is that Kirk programmed the computer to take into account what kind of captain he would be at this point in his career. Basically, he showed up and told the Klingons, "I am Captain James T. Kirk," and the Klingons said, "The famous Captain James T. Kirk is known as an honorable man and a mighty warrior. What do you wish of us?" "We have a civilian ship in need of help. Let us go and get them, and we will owe you a favor." "Ha! The mighty Captain Kirk asks the Klingons for a favor? You will have it. We will remember this day as the day that Captain Kirk begged the Klingons for mercy." "Thank you. Kirk out. Helm, let's beam out the crew of that ship and get the hell out of here before the Klingons change their minds. . ." "End test. Cadet, what the hell was that?" "Well sir, I just asked the computer to take into mind the kind of career I'm going to have 15 years from now." ". . . You fail the test with a commendation for original thinking. Get out of my sight."
In one expanded universe, he was formally recorded as passing the test, and then got slapped with 99 demerits, one short of expulsion, so he'd remember actions have consequences if he wanted to become a star fleet officer.
Saviik's first mistake is raising shields and going to Red Alert which the Klingons could detect as a hostile action. Thats what Kirk figured out. If they didnt pose as a threat, they would simply fire warning shots at them and not fatal shots thus leaving the Klingon's ships guard down, so when they actually fire on the Klingon cruisers it will be a surprise attack, thus destroying them all and saving the Kobayashi Maru.
The end line here "best we could do in two hours" always made me wonder whether they could have gambled for three or four hours. The longer they wait, the greater the chance of Khan discovering either the Enterprise or Kirk, but...
There's a great scene where kirk reflects on how he has cheated death numerous times and congratulated himself for it. The feeling was hollow and didn't resonate until he lost something dear. Shatner conveyed this so well. He at times could be a terrific actor. Shatner face at 0:45 says it all
Just an FYI, this is Kirk's entry for "Greatest Trek Captain" right here, incarnate. Before you get nerd-butthurt... it's subjective (there is no right answer)... but what I'm saying is this smug assuredness in the face of catastrophe is the path to Kirk's entry in that category. He's got that John McLean golden touch and could very well "cowboy" himself out of any situation. Shattner was so perfect for this, just watch the way he he looks almost disgusted at the mere insinuation he'd cowtail to any situation and then nonchalantly whips the communicator open and says "Kirk to Spock". What a flippin hero. The truest testament is how his uncanny bravado seems to fascinate even Vulcans. ;)
When a 11 year old seen this scene on the big screen in 1982....well you end up taking on everything in life with the intent to win using your head... and even now using Kirk's intellectual thinking though out my life my offer on a new home was excepted in a Sea or Solar System of other offers and mine was not the highest..."I don't like to lose" Thank you Mr Shatner for this scene and many others
Nog from DS9 actually beat the kobioshi Maru test by negotiating with the enemy and was the only student ever to do so without altering the test conditions
@@dentistjohn6171 I stopped watching after The Force Awakens. Discovery is an abomination. Star Trek died after Enterprise. Kurtzman is raping the corpse of Star Trek. Abrams practiced his franchise killing skills on Trek before he went after Star Wars. Superman beware.
I love the way this Enterprise "sounds". Just listen to their boots on the plating as they walk out the transporter room. That's proper deck plating that is. None of the TNG cheap hotel carpet corridors here.
One of the issues you would get from cheap carpets would be static shocks whenever you touched anything metal. Imagine the Enterprise D being stranded 10 lightyears from home by static destroying a key computer component.
I hate the way that reboots and spinoffs nowadays take something from the original material that is intended to provide depth and backstory, and spin a whole new thing thereby taking the mythic nature away. Kobayashi Maru for Star Trek. Kessel Run for Star Wars.. Some things are best left to be interpreted by one's imagination.
I think they did a very good job at treating the source material creatively while respecting it at the same time. Especially Han Solo's Kessel Run line from "A New Hope" had received a lot of criticism in its day: "Parsec" is a (real) distance measurement, but Han Solo's line says something like "this ship made the Kessel Run in under so-and-so parsecs", as if it were a time measurement. I really loved the Kessel Run scene in "Solo" being a very cool chase while simultaneously showing: "See? Han Solo is cutting the distance with his ace-level pilot skills. He knew what he was talking about all along!" IMHO, that is one of the most creative quasi-retcons ever written and filmed. Loved it, just loved it.
He finally got to experience the no win scenario at the end of the movie. He was unable to get everyone to safety without one of his crew members making the ultimate sacrifice.
Other then Kirk, there have been 3 other cadets who beat the test. The first was Cadet Mackenzie Calhoun who chose to destroy the freighter due to him believing that it would have been far more merciful then being captured by the Klingongs. The 2nd was Peter Kirk (where it was Romulans rather thin Klingongs), he knew Romulan cultures, so challenging their captain to ritual combat - since all other hostilities must cease during the duel, he won. Lastly was Cadet Nog, who chose to do the one thing that wasn't programmed in the test: bartering.
1982 Star Trek 2 - Spock: "I exaggerated." / 1986 Transformers the Movie - Unicron to Megatron (played by Spock, after becoming Galvatron shortly): "You exaggerate."
I like how Kirk lets everyone else in the cave think for 2 hours that they are buried alive until they die, when he knew he would save them from the beginning, lol. Still an amazing movie of course, but that plot hole just occurred to me.
Both offer different things as captains - Kirk is the adventurous leader who can pull his crew out of any desperate situation, Picard is the Chairman of the Board who ensures that his crew are capable of handling any desperate situation
Oh for sure yes. Kirk has some great moments to be sure but also so much campy garbage. Star Trek has changed much over the years (not always for the better as the garbage of today shows). Picard in his heyday was and always will be my Captain. Kirk was my mothers era.
I seem to be one of the few people who doesn't at all like the whole Kobayashi Maru idea, and the way it has become such an integral part of Star Trek lore. I know exactly why Nicholas Meyer put it in the movie: it was meant as a bit of foreshadowing about people's lives being at stake, and about the loss of Spock and how this would devastate Kirk, who had "never faced death," at least not like this. The problem I have with it is twofold. First, Kirk absolutely _has_ faced death, many, many times, both his own and that of those close to him. He himself comes close to being killed multiple times during the series, and he lost people under his command a number of times. It's not even true that he hasn't felt the loss of a close personal friend like Spock. The second pilot, which _introduced_ Captain Kirk as a character (or would have, if NBC hadn't aired "Where No Man Has Gone Before" out of order) shows Kirk lose his then-best friend, Gary Mitchell, who had known Kirk ever since they were cadets at Starfleet Academy. The second problem I have is that there really is no way you could ever actually test for what they intend this scenario to test for: namely, what you would do, when you actually believe you are about to lay down your life in the line of duty. It can't because there is no way to recreate the fear response that would accompany the genuine belief that death is at hand. In any test, the cadets are going to know that they aren't _really_ going to be killed, and that's going to take away that surge of adrenaline and other chemicals that your body will release into your bloodstream in a real combat situation. That _genuine_ fear, that _genuine_ expectation of death, is a crucial psychological factor that _no_ test, taken in full awareness that your life isn't really on the line, could ever replicate. Robert A. Heinlein was correct when he wrote (in the novel "Starship Troopers") "Regrettably there is no method known to military science to tell a real officer from a glib imitation with pips on his shoulders, other than through ordeal by fire. Real ones come through-or die gallantly; imitations crack up. Sometimes, in cracking up, the misfits die. But the tragedy lies in the loss of others... good men, sergeants and corporals and privates, whose only lack is fatal bad fortune in finding themselves under the command of an incompetent."
so what do you think of the Starfleet entrance test when they make you face your greatest fear like when Wesley Crusher took the test? To me the Kobayashi Maru should be seen more as a good lesson for officers to analyze themselves on how and why they make the choices that they make.
@@angelrivera2339 I don't remember that episode well enough to remember the specifics of the test, and so cannot offer much in the way of intelligent comment on it. At this point I would only be able to observe that in practical terms, it would be difficult if not impossible to determine precisely what each individual's "greatest fear" is.
I mean..... It's scenes like this that make me wanna retry TOS. Kirk is a scheming rat bastard, but damn can that make for a fun hero. Like, if Kirk wasn't such a morally upstanding person (relatively speaking), then he'd make one of the most entertainingly dastardly villains of all time.
The second person who managed to beat the Kobiyashi Maru test was Captain Nog (as a cadet), who surrendered immediately against the simulated enemy forces and tried to negotiate a price. This tactic was never considered when programming the test, and the test promptly crashed.
Makes sense that the federation would forget the existence of money.
Even in Kirk's day, surrender wasn't an option. Your ship would still be destroyed with all hands because it is supposedly a test of how you face death.
In the New Frontier books, Mackenzie Calhoun beat the Kobiyashi Maru by opening fire on the freighter, destroying it, and the incoming ships, when it's cargo exploded. His reasoning? They were already dead, being bait in the trap, and his first duty was to his ship. Yes, it was cold to kill the hostages, but with no chance of saving them, their survival was no longer a priority. The admiral who conducted the test was impressed.
@@jamesbuchanan4414 He also saved the hostages from a more painful, drawn-out death at the hands of the Romulans. So you could say that he did them a favor by killing them quickly.
@@jamesbuchanan4414 Considering Worf was put on trial for shooting a civilian craft, I doubt that would be considered a pass.
This is the most Kirk moment of all time.
Kirk don´t follow rules. Rules follow Kirk.
@jaysonborn Like The Sisko, Kirk is a moral officer. He will do the right thing regardless of the rules or the consequences.
Picard was a rules officer. He stuck to Federation and Starfleet directives despite the morality of the situation.
We can argue back and forth over who was the better CO, but at least none of them were as bad as Janeway.
@@chrisbingley Janeway was one of them.
"I don't like to lose" is the most Kirk line ever.
@@chrisbingley Kirk hands down is the GOAT.
One of the greatest moments in ALL of Star Trek . . .
Got that right my friend…along with stealing the Enterprise…and destroying the cloaked Bird of Prey with Excelsior
One of the greatest movies of all time.
"Here it comes." One of the best Kirk lines as well.
I agree...plus the way Bones looked at Kirk, his faith reaffirmed in his old friend, when he realized Jim had defied the odds yet again with another clutch performance, was priceless.
This is why today's Star Trek movies will never compare to greats like The Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock and The Undiscovered Country. Moviemakers today think that lots of fast paced action, CGI, violence, sex etc is what keeps audiences engaged, which may be true for very short sequences, but if the basic premise of the movie sucks, without a good storyline, thought provoking dialogue, good character interplay, great acting, directing etc then it all goes down the toilet. Nicholas Meyer is the key architect as to why this movie and ST6 were such great successes.
“I exaggerated.” Nimoy’s smart ass delivery of all his lines are absolutely my favorite aspect of the character.
Depends on your point of view. Kirk knew the code. So Spock was being honest to Kirk. Anyone who did not know the code didn't get the true message.
Spock:
You lied?
Spock Prime:
Ah... I - I implied.
One of my favorite Nimoy quotes.
@@Serpent042G It’s more a question of tone than anything. For example in “The Trouble With Tribbles” when Kirk remarks how Tribbles like Vulcans, listen to the smarminess in his voice when he responds with “obviously Tribbles are very perceptive captain.” 🤣
@@josephsheranda That whole scene is fantastic. Taking into account the whole wide breadth of Spock’s character and growth it’s kinda amazing watching this wise, old, and jolly Vulcan give his younger more apprehensive self some life advice. Having the opportunity to simultaneously relive those glory days for just a fleeting moment and pay it forward on a new generation just starting their grand journey.
When Nomad revives Scotty in The Changeling, and Kirk says Bones will explain the situation, Spock's 'Well, doctor?' is sublime :)
One of the greatest moments in film. Not so much sci-fi, but a life lesson. The junior officer tried to school the senior officers on protocol, then the senior officers get the last giggle with the very protocols that the junior officer was preaching before. And it speaks to how well the old sea dogs know one another.
To be fair, if Kirk had listened to protocol being recited to him by Saavik earlier, the Enterprise would have had its shields up before the attack began.
Kirk's job on this mission is teaching junior officers. He never stops doing that. He doesn't even let a battle with Kahn interrupt his teaching. He's here to chew bubble gun and train cadets, and he is all out of bubble gum.
It's one thing to memorize the rules. It's another entirely to know how to properly bend them.
Saavik is wrong. Kirk faced impossible odds and death multiple times during his career. He always found a way to win. Not only was he stubborn in his rejection of a "no win" scenario, he knew to trust in those around him. The final decision was always his to make as captain, but he always solicited input from his officers.
And benefited from plot armor, of course.
All true. But I think the movie is being a little more specific. "Facing death" in this instance is more akin to Captain Smith going down with the Titanic than to Captain Kirk bluffing his way out of destruction with the Corbomite Maneuver.
Not only that, but earlier in the movie, Spock even noted that Kirk only reprogrammed the simulation for his 3rd attempt at the test, and he'd taken it twice before.
@@lyianx Even then, Savik's referring to a test Kirk took as a CADET. He's one of the most decorated admirals in Starfleet history at this point.
Ikr...Kirk should have been like "bish, never faced death? You ever been on a deserted planet with an angry gorn on your ass trying to kill ya?...yeah, I didn't think so" 😂
Nothing gets through plot armor, except the dreaded "Badly written sequel", or a Director who doesn't know the source material well enough to deserve the chair. Those two can kill off anything.
When I was in the army, I "changed the conditions of the test" during EIB night land nav. In other words, I used a map that we were not allowed to have that I had hidden in a piece of my gear that nobody would think to ever look. You ain't cheating, you ain't trying!
Did you get a commendation for original thinking?
@@geoffwilliams4478 probably would have gotten kicked out of the EIB testing. Army doesn't like when you get caught cheating.
My tech school instructor told us "If you don't cheat, you've shown no initiative whatsoever.
Then you should get out of the military."
Also: "of course when you do, I'll catch you & throw you out as I've seen it all.
In my experience, those that cheat (well) work 10 times harder than those that don't so they don't get caught."
So he said if you don't, you will get kicked out & if you do, same thing.
Basically find a third option (with cheating) and so well that you get away with it.
Being good on your feet to adapt and win and not get caught & charged. Actually great for those in combat.
I wish I could have changed the conditions on the road march, 3 hours to do 1 mile.
Translated to the real world-- you're a soldier-- "Mission, Men, Me"--- anything that can be done to complete the mission and preserve the troops as best as can be within the Rules of Land Warfare is all good.
4th AD used Michelin tourist maps motoring across France-- I don't think anyone gigged them for that
The funny thing I've always found about the Kobiyashi Maru is that it's the one test that actually encourages you to "cheat".
Even in real life, we are always faced with supposed no-win situations. It's how you deal with the situation to turn it around from no-win to at least a draw is what matters. Even the guy that technically surrendered in order to negotiate a ransom was still trying to turn the whole situation around into a more favorable one. Despite Kirk changing the programme to change the parameters of the (test) situation is not cheating. He merely added other factors, which could happen in real life, but maybe not included in the coded instructions of the simulation. In the end, as Kirk himslef stated, it is not a test of command ability, but the test of character when faced with a dire situation. Basically, do you just lie down and give up, or do you do everything you can no matter the odds.
Correct. When the rules are structured in such a manner as to ensure a no-win situation, then you have to say "F**K THE RULES" and think outside the box.
@@christopher9000p Amen, brother.
@@christopher9000p Sometimes, even 'F__k the rules' results in a loss. Nobody likes to lose, but some losses are more tolerable tan others. Defeat doesn't pack as much of a sting if you're left with at least some way to claw your way back into the fight.
Just like the battle with Khan--Kirk won the battle before it even started. With the test he re-programed the victory conditions, with Khan he has a well-trained crew that can repair a crippled starship AND fight a battle with "partial main power." Khan didn't have a chance.
Technically Spock wasn't lying. He was following orders and regulations to relay a "coded" message to Kirk.
remember its never a lie if it saves lives. whether its one life or a 1000.
It's not even a technicality. His coded message was merely an exaggeration. But it was enough to mislead the inexperienced Khan as to the true status of Enterprise.
Yep. To lie he would had to have been addressing Khan directly. He is completely correct: its simple exaggeration as part of a code. He was addressing Kirk who totally understood his meaning behind the coded message.
I love how Kirk doesn’t lie when asked about how he passed the test. 😄
What you do, what you always do. Turn death into a fighting chance to live..... To quote another Trek moment.
Kirk didn't cheat. He improvised an unfair resolution to an unfair test, something he did time and again the series and the films.
The cheating was in reprogramming the test. The new parameter was not a cheat.
Honestly I think his solution to the Kobayashi Maru scenario was what eventually but not too long later got him command of a long term voyage vessel. Even though the test was not a pass-fail, it did show how a commander would perform under extreme circumstances. Kirk showing the capacity to think outside the box would be something valuable in a commander who would be expected to have first contact missions.
@@samsonguy10k Was it cheating, though? I believe there were no rules against doing what he did. If there were, Kirk would've been disqualified. Instead, he got a frickin' commendation. The common assumption (shared by all the cadets and everyone else for that matter) is that there are rules against reprogramming the test when in fact there aren't and Kirk went AGAINST common beliefs ("out-of-the-box" thinking, as it were) thereby proving his worth as a potential Captain.
Yeah, that scene at the end of TOS episode "The Deadly Years" springs to mind.
Kirk will never reach into his trick bag and find just lint.
Brilliant showcase of how age, wisdom and experience can be assets. This scene is Kirk getting his moxie back after getting caught with his breeches down in the first battle.
Kirsty Alle was so cute in this
Nice lumpy jumper she's got there before the jacket goes back on :)
"Would"
That smug little crunch of the apple gets me every time. :D
Love how they are talking while transporting🙂
Almost the first time in Star Trek they were able to do that effect. It was actually done in a TOS episode, That Which Survives, where we can see Kirk move and react to the transporter crewman being attacked during beaming. That was likely a very expensive scene to edit.
TMP almost counts, but what happened during the accident was more a stop motion effect.
I noticed that too, a sign that transporter tech was improving.
One of the greatest moments in Star Trek- and the quintessential Kirk moment. Kirk never, ever gave up or gave in. The test, in his eyes, was the cheat-it removed any chance or hope at all of saving the ship and his crew, and Kirk would not accept that at any time in all of his career. In the Corbomite Manuever, Spock was ready to give up, using the analogy of chess-when you are in checkmate, yield. Kirk changed it to poker-bluff and play for time, and don’t yield. Spock never again suggested giving up, because Kirk was right. Character counts most when it’s needed most- when everything looks lost, you look again, and again, until you see that way out. And for nothing else, it showed that Kirk was not a manual bound, rule bound drone that only knew what the book said. He went by the book until it became necessary to use his own judgement because that was what was needed for the situation, because not every situation could be covered by the book. James Kirk was a CAPTAIN-every inch a leader who was confident and self aware. What guy wouldn’t want to be Kirk?
I just realized that Kirk eating an apple in the reboot during the test is an easter egg to this scene...
I came here to say that! The reboots were better than I thought they'd be. 🖖
Edit: Meant to type "say" not "sat"
@@charlesrichards5389 you must have originally thought the reboots going to be really, really, REALLY bad then.
@ZylonBane Yes, I'm not disappointed as much if I keep low expectations. Even so, it's getting harder nowadays. SJW virtue signalling contests to see who can check the most boxes has taken the place of clever plots.
Btw, for anyone who thinks what Kirk did was dishonorable or whatever, Sun Tzu says in the 'Art of War', "All warfare is based on deception". Or to put it another way, "Cheating is perfectly acceptable: in fact the more you lie, cheat and mislead your opponents, the greater your chances of winning". The whole book is basically an instruction manual on how to do exactly that.
Just remember what Alexander the great did with the Gordion Knot, or Steve Rogers with the Flag.
Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat.
I’ve never understood that book. It’s too vague and unspecific
Did anyone ever mistake Kirk for an honourable man?
@@RAFMnBgaming Kirk got 99 demerits (1 more and he would've been expelled) as well as a commendation for original thinking
The music cues work very well here. Kirk and Spock's plan to fool Khan is presented with the music rising in a hopeful but lighthearted way.
That's the great James Horner.
Absolute legend, died far too young.
Kirk: "I don't like to lose"
Saavik: "Then you never face that situation"
Kirk: "Bitch, don't they teach you kids anything at Fleet Academy? I have already saved this universe a dozen times well before you learned how to keep your hair in Starfleet Regulations"
*Few movies later*
Also Kirk: *Saves the day again...By going back in time... in a old and busted Bird of Prey... so he can grand theft auto a couple of whales and bring them back to the present time*
Whats even funnier that bird of prey helped save lives in picard series nearly centry later
I need to rewatch all of these great films. Gosh. It’s been years.
This movie is damn near perfect.
This is what made the original Star Trek so beloved among fans. Characters you actually became invested in and the writing was so good that you could feel the urgency in the acting, like in this scene. None of the new Star Trek shows have ever come close to the original shows. Discovery, Picard, they have both failed at this.
Just like in other ruined franchises the past few years, its a combination of bad or non existing writing talent and pushing a political agenda, its not art anymore but a platform to those untalented hags.
Oh dear 😅, people who grew up with the older Trek who accepted the political narrative and agenda of Trek of the time as they had not yet fixed their own world views now look upon new Trek with the eyes of someone who has fixed their opinions and political views. Trek is doing what it’s always done, it’s the people in comments like this who have changed. Or is someone going to tell me the TNG Sub Rosa was fantastic writing?
@@backupplan6058 uh, no. Incorrect.
@@eldiablort1461 really, please elaborate on how I’m incorrect as if not I assume you are another of those I mentioned.
What about Strange New Worlds? Looks good so far.
"I don't believe in the no-win scenario." - James Tiberius Kirk
The most badass line in Trek history...and proof that Kirk is the GOAT.
I love how Bones just removes Chekov's field jacket and hands it to Carol and she just goes with the flow.
We were very lucky to have lived growing up in the mid 70’s into the 80’s. These were the last best decades for America when the best block buster movies were born and still have sequels to this date in 2023… WOW! 2023…I never even imagine living in this time I used to think 1999 was gonna be a big deal. Now 58 I see the world not as it was promised to us when technology started to boom in our decades. While much of it is amazing , most has destroyed society in many ways.
My favorite interpretation of this scene is that Kirk programmed the computer to take into account what kind of captain he would be at this point in his career. Basically, he showed up and told the Klingons, "I am Captain James T. Kirk," and the Klingons said, "The famous Captain James T. Kirk is known as an honorable man and a mighty warrior. What do you wish of us?"
"We have a civilian ship in need of help. Let us go and get them, and we will owe you a favor."
"Ha! The mighty Captain Kirk asks the Klingons for a favor? You will have it. We will remember this day as the day that Captain Kirk begged the Klingons for mercy."
"Thank you. Kirk out. Helm, let's beam out the crew of that ship and get the hell out of here before the Klingons change their minds. . ."
"End test. Cadet, what the hell was that?"
"Well sir, I just asked the computer to take into mind the kind of career I'm going to have 15 years from now."
". . . You fail the test with a commendation for original thinking. Get out of my sight."
In one expanded universe, he was formally recorded as passing the test, and then got slapped with 99 demerits, one short of expulsion, so he'd remember actions have consequences if he wanted to become a star fleet officer.
Saviik's first mistake is raising shields and going to Red Alert which the Klingons could detect as a hostile action. Thats what Kirk figured out. If they didnt pose as a threat, they would simply fire warning shots at them and not fatal shots thus leaving the Klingon's ships guard down, so when they actually fire on the Klingon cruisers it will be a surprise attack, thus destroying them all and saving the Kobayashi Maru.
Ironically, later on in real life, if Kirk had raised the shields when Saavik told him to, Enterprise wouldn't have been crippled.
1:10 damn Saavik !!!!!!! YOWZAAAAA !!!
She gives T'pol a run for her money there lol.
After binge watching Boston Legal, I can just imagine the "Denny Crane" that belongs in there.
Would have been perfect in place of "I don't like to lose"
The end line here "best we could do in two hours" always made me wonder whether they could have gambled for three or four hours. The longer they wait, the greater the chance of Khan discovering either the Enterprise or Kirk, but...
It was also a bunch of trainees
I love me some 7 of 9,I love me some T'pol and all of the STOS beauties but Kirstie Alley was the most breathtaking woman to ever grace Star Trek.
The musical scores are amazing!
The hard cut to the Enterprise as the music swells...MY EMOTIONS
There's a great scene where kirk reflects on how he has cheated death numerous times and congratulated himself for it. The feeling was hollow and didn't resonate until he lost something dear. Shatner conveyed this so well. He at times could be a terrific actor. Shatner face at 0:45 says it all
Just an FYI, this is Kirk's entry for "Greatest Trek Captain" right here, incarnate. Before you get nerd-butthurt... it's subjective (there is no right answer)... but what I'm saying is this smug assuredness in the face of catastrophe is the path to Kirk's entry in that category. He's got that John McLean golden touch and could very well "cowboy" himself out of any situation. Shattner was so perfect for this, just watch the way he he looks almost disgusted at the mere insinuation he'd cowtail to any situation and then nonchalantly whips the communicator open and says "Kirk to Spock". What a flippin hero. The truest testament is how his uncanny bravado seems to fascinate even Vulcans. ;)
When a 11 year old seen this scene on the big screen in 1982....well you end up taking on everything in life with the intent to win using your head... and even now using Kirk's intellectual thinking though out my life my offer on a new home was excepted in a Sea or Solar System of other offers and mine was not the highest..."I don't like to lose" Thank you Mr Shatner for this scene and many others
Nog from DS9 actually beat the kobioshi Maru test by negotiating with the enemy and was the only student ever to do so without altering the test conditions
How hot was Kirstie Alley in this
She still is
Hotter than a Vulcan summer !
Yes
I don't like to lose.
RIP Kirstie Alley. 😔 Lt Saavik. 🖖🖖🍁
He eats an apple here and in the movie, Into Darkness.
Remember commenting on Kirk’s edible - in the theater - when the movie was originally released.
RIP Kristie Alley.
My favorite of all the movies with the original cast.
Kirstie Alley was so hot back then.
We have gone from this to Discard and the JJ verse.
Oh how the mighty have fallen.
I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing, all things change but at least it didn’t turn into something like the Star Wars sequels. Consider yourself lucky.
@@dentistjohn6171 I stopped watching after The Force Awakens.
Discovery is an abomination.
Star Trek died after Enterprise.
Kurtzman is raping the corpse of Star Trek.
Abrams practiced his franchise killing skills on Trek before he went after Star Wars.
Superman beware.
@@DaveMiller2 JJ Abram's movies are the epitome of short term gain over longevity.
I love the way this Enterprise "sounds".
Just listen to their boots on the plating as they walk out the transporter room.
That's proper deck plating that is.
None of the TNG cheap hotel carpet corridors here.
One of the changes Nick Meyer did, changed to make the Enterprise more like a real military ship with narrower corridors and realistic materials.
One of the issues you would get from cheap carpets would be static shocks whenever you touched anything metal. Imagine the Enterprise D being stranded 10 lightyears from home by static destroying a key computer component.
I always loved kirks jacket!
The not believing in the no win scenario and facing death comes anyway. For all of us.
I hate the way that reboots and spinoffs nowadays take something from the original material that is intended to provide depth and backstory, and spin a whole new thing thereby taking the mythic nature away. Kobayashi Maru for Star Trek. Kessel Run for Star Wars..
Some things are best left to be interpreted by one's imagination.
I think they did a very good job at treating the source material creatively while respecting it at the same time. Especially Han Solo's Kessel Run line from "A New Hope" had received a lot of criticism in its day: "Parsec" is a (real) distance measurement, but Han Solo's line says something like "this ship made the Kessel Run in under so-and-so parsecs", as if it were a time measurement. I really loved the Kessel Run scene in "Solo" being a very cool chase while simultaneously showing: "See? Han Solo is cutting the distance with his ace-level pilot skills. He knew what he was talking about all along!" IMHO, that is one of the most creative quasi-retcons ever written and filmed. Loved it, just loved it.
I agree :=)
Long live the classic maroon uniforms!!!
Damn , Kirstie was hotter than a Vulcan summer as Saavik !!!
he was a great actor. Lots of color and style
He finally got to experience the no win scenario at the end of the movie. He was unable to get everyone to safety without one of his crew members making the ultimate sacrifice.
He didn't accept defeat. He got him back in the next movie.
RIP Kirstie
Other then Kirk, there have been 3 other cadets who beat the test. The first was Cadet Mackenzie Calhoun who chose to destroy the freighter due to him believing that it would have been far more merciful then being captured by the Klingongs. The 2nd was Peter Kirk (where it was Romulans rather thin Klingongs), he knew Romulan cultures, so challenging their captain to ritual combat - since all other hostilities must cease during the duel, he won. Lastly was Cadet Nog, who chose to do the one thing that wasn't programmed in the test: bartering.
1982 Star Trek 2 - Spock: "I exaggerated." /
1986 Transformers the Movie - Unicron to Megatron (played by Spock, after becoming Galvatron shortly): "You exaggerate."
BEST TREK MOVIE EVER ! TIMELESS !
Best Trek movie🖖🏾
Kirk is an absolute legend
Hmm, I remember Capt. Kirk facing death every week. He took out those Tribbles and solved the Horta conundrum.
So applicable to life...change the conditions of the test!!!
I like how Kirk lets everyone else in the cave think for 2 hours that they are buried alive until they die, when he knew he would save them from the beginning, lol. Still an amazing movie of course, but that plot hole just occurred to me.
Rip kirstie alley
I like, that he is eating an apple like he did during his cheating of the test.
CinemaSins nods approvingly.
TRIVIA: Kirstie Alley's father was named Bob Alley. Kirstie's first husband was also named Bob Alley. She was 31 in this movie. She's 70 now.
They don’t make movies like this anymore.
“By the book!!”
Has anyone ever asked Shatner why he decided to take a super loud chomp on that apple for emphasis after the one liner?
The apple was impressed.
"I don't like to lose." :)
A great scene saved by cinematography that successfully kept the terrible no-budget set out of focus at all times.
Because less = more
Can you believe some people actually prefer Picard
Both offer different things as captains - Kirk is the adventurous leader who can pull his crew out of any desperate situation, Picard is the Chairman of the Board who ensures that his crew are capable of handling any desperate situation
The man, or the series?
Oh for sure yes. Kirk has some great moments to be sure but also so much campy garbage.
Star Trek has changed much over the years (not always for the better as the garbage of today shows).
Picard in his heyday was and always will be my Captain. Kirk was my mothers era.
@@jmlaw8888 camp doesn't mean bad haha
I’m watching this because of a conversation between Sheldon and Penny. (Although I would consider myself a Trekkie)
This moment is one reason kirk is the best captain in star fleet history
Jeez Kirstie Alley was sooooo hot back then...
pure kirk
R.I.P Kirstie Alley 🖖
always brings a smile, if only .....
Captain All Talk Picard would never pull this off.
he wouldn't have to. he would have raised shields when the other ship did not hail him.
You obviously don't even know what he did while serving on the Stargazer if you are going to say that.
Commander Data would have done it for him.
I seem to be one of the few people who doesn't at all like the whole Kobayashi Maru idea, and the way it has become such an integral part of Star Trek lore. I know exactly why Nicholas Meyer put it in the movie: it was meant as a bit of foreshadowing about people's lives being at stake, and about the loss of Spock and how this would devastate Kirk, who had "never faced death," at least not like this. The problem I have with it is twofold. First, Kirk absolutely _has_ faced death, many, many times, both his own and that of those close to him. He himself comes close to being killed multiple times during the series, and he lost people under his command a number of times. It's not even true that he hasn't felt the loss of a close personal friend like Spock. The second pilot, which _introduced_ Captain Kirk as a character (or would have, if NBC hadn't aired "Where No Man Has Gone Before" out of order) shows Kirk lose his then-best friend, Gary Mitchell, who had known Kirk ever since they were cadets at Starfleet Academy.
The second problem I have is that there really is no way you could ever actually test for what they intend this scenario to test for: namely, what you would do, when you actually believe you are about to lay down your life in the line of duty. It can't because there is no way to recreate the fear response that would accompany the genuine belief that death is at hand. In any test, the cadets are going to know that they aren't _really_ going to be killed, and that's going to take away that surge of adrenaline and other chemicals that your body will release into your bloodstream in a real combat situation. That _genuine_ fear, that _genuine_ expectation of death, is a crucial psychological factor that _no_ test, taken in full awareness that your life isn't really on the line, could ever replicate. Robert A. Heinlein was correct when he wrote (in the novel "Starship Troopers") "Regrettably there is no method known to military science to tell a real officer from a glib imitation with pips on his shoulders, other than through ordeal by fire. Real ones come through-or die gallantly; imitations crack up. Sometimes, in cracking up, the misfits die. But the tragedy lies in the loss of others... good men, sergeants and corporals and privates, whose only lack is fatal bad fortune in finding themselves under the command of an incompetent."
so what do you think of the Starfleet entrance test when they make you face your greatest fear like when Wesley Crusher took the test? To me the Kobayashi Maru should be seen more as a good lesson for officers to analyze themselves on how and why they make the choices that they make.
@@angelrivera2339 I don't remember that episode well enough to remember the specifics of the test, and so cannot offer much in the way of intelligent comment on it. At this point I would only be able to observe that in practical terms, it would be difficult if not impossible to determine precisely what each individual's "greatest fear" is.
"Let's have Kirk eat an apple. It will make him look like an asshole..."
I work as a network admin, love saying that when one of the level one techs tells me its a impossible problem lol.
Shatner is amazing in this film.
Khan is the main reson for most of the evil in this world get rid of him and his evil ways.
His uniform is fucking perfect
In our head canon that’s not a turbo lift it’s the toilets that are inoperable below C deck
One photon each, he didn't want to waste ammunition
I don't like to lose.... Sean DiVarco and your welcome 😁.
You can glean everything you need to know about Star Trek from this one movie.
This is why shatner Kirk is so iconic and a bad a $
$
Also RIP Kirstie alley 😢
Saavik : You lied! Spock : I exaggerated. Kirk : Hours instead of days! Now we have minutes instead of hours!
I bet she hates Star Trek lol
Kirk and Spock doing Kirk and Spock things.
I mean.....
It's scenes like this that make me wanna retry TOS.
Kirk is a scheming rat bastard, but damn can that make for a fun hero.
Like, if Kirk wasn't such a morally upstanding person (relatively speaking), then he'd make one of the most entertainingly dastardly villains of all time.
There’s a reason why he’s eating an apple.
Chills! :)
Wrath of Kahn prolly the best Star Trek movie
So he cheated on Kobayashi Maru, he lied to deceive Khan, and he stole a Klingon ship to return Spock to Vulcan. He should run for office.
Completely awesome
I respect that James but I will be going full on Naruto. Still, mad props.
He is eating an apple. Just like when he was taking the kobiyashi Maru.