I would think different rules should be held for different sexes and ages every incident should be looked upon according to the circumstances considering all aspects of the situation.
Nearly 40 years ago, a cousin of mine was shot over a board game in his home. He was trying to escape out the door when he was shot (side) in the chest with a .30-06 rifle (capable of killing an Alaskan Moose). The shot took out a portion of his heart. He got out of the house and ran down the alley before being shot in the back with a second round (same gun/shooter). He made it to the sidewalk before collapsing (still alive). A passerby stopped and held him as he uttered his last words prior to leaving this world. My point? Yes, a human being CAN physically function after being shot by a fatal wound, from a rifle, not just a pistol. In this case, it was fear-based adrenaline. What could a PCP drug-charged attacker do? I don't think a victim should be put in a position of having to justify defending himself from an attacker.
One of the reasons for the 1911 45 auto was that the troops fighting in the Philippines need something that would "knock down" the crazed huk fighters high on drugs. The troops would shoot then with the 30 cal carbine and the machete armed huks would keep on coming and hit the soldier with the machete.
@@seniorrider9337 TRUE: the .38 Service Revolver was anemic, the .45 Colt was reestablished as it is ; a fight stopper. Now we have excellent loads for the 9mm and .38. But many of us with big game experience prefer the weight and frontal area of the "old .45 ACP" even tho this is controversial yet. Your history is on topic, mine is kinda related; lol.
Great video, Tom! I know, as a 63 old guy, my Reactionary Gap is a whole lot different now than in was 20-30 years ago. I have to be more aware, more alert and more prepared than ever.
I'm 70 and frail, so my reaction times have diminished alot, but I still carry because I now feel I have a target painted on me due to age and health for some young gangs to do me harm. I still train to keep memory and actions as fast and safe as possible.
@@tonyromano6220 100% 21ft is just one scenario, an attacker will get as close to you as possible before revealing their intentions exactly so you do not have any time to react, element of surprise. You must be aware of threats and minimize your exposure to them and maximize distance from them.
It was never intended to be a “rule”! And it wasn’t taught that way to law enforcement officers here in Utah. It was simply a training tool to get officers to realize how quickly things can happen and to improve situational awareness. It’s ridiculous to think this should ever be taught as a rule! Your position is spot on and important information for anyone who uses a firearm for self defense or actually anyone potentially facing any self defense situation.
Exactly. But those outside law enforcement and attorneys specifically want things to be tidy and with rules for things like a gunfight. There are no rules except win. They grabbed a hold of 21 ft and made it gospel. I wonder how many cops died or were injured because of the teaching of 21 ft by stupid department heads and instructors. Nampa PD ID 1995-2012 would’ve been 28 years today of all days if it weren’t for a pesky scumbag. Lol.
100% - it isn't a "rule but a instead a "principle". And the totality of the circumstance must always be the final deciding factor... well done and excellent presentation Mr. Grieve. Everyone (not just 2A/firearms carriers) should watch this...
As a retired Army combat arms officer and a long time licensed concealed carrier your discussion has forced me to carefully reconsider my reaction to an armed threat. Thank you.
The 21 foot rule is probably way out dated , it was based on the average officers skills at that time . Today it can not be considered realistic . My teacher was very much involved in this project.
I let my crazed attacker get 2 feet away... and God let him leave without hurting anyone. I was young and untrained in this kind of encounter. No Excuses... next time I will kill for the protection it provides against a committed attacker. 21 feet in the near future . America is falling to crime and violence. I took an oath..........
@@Sifujonrister Oh hell yea, way outdated. For over 2 decades I've been looking at their paces/strides, not mine, theirs, also teaching that. First two will probably be paces, the others will be strides. Never move straight back, brace for an impact of some sort. On to recovery checking surroundings as to adjusting for other.... sorry, getting into mindset drilling and keeping people alive. ....(I'll finish)for other threats while keeping an eye on the initial.
As a retired Army combat arms noncommissioned officer, I still carry a 1911 with 230 grain rapidly expanding (HST) bullets. Also having experience in both Afghanistan and Iraq, I learned the value of headshots.
As a self-defense instructor, situational awareness is the most important aspect of all defensive actions. The more time you have to react the more options you have to defend yourself including running. Don't let pride get you hurt or locked up.
I use to be an officer in Ohio in the late 80's and early 90's. The edged weapon training used the 21 foot rule. I always thought that was too close because someone who is a trained knife fighter, former military, who know to deliver strikes that could disable a police officer. Thank you for proving my point.
Thanks for the strong advice..., I need it. "Old Navy Nuke Security", followed by armed prison guard, ...I have a sensitive trigger finger anyway. 21 feet it is, henceforth.
Rules for engagement for a plain ordinary citizen wanting something as a weapon to defend themselves against criminals shouldn't come with expert military or police training. Response time will vary from the moment to a perceived threat to the actual threat time in distance will vary from eyes to brain calculations to clothing and type or position of carry are so variable. It takes more than practice at a gun range or tree stump. Accuracy is mute if your perceived response time lags. Adrenaline is a strange element.
As Ken said below: "The more time you have to react the more options you have to defend yourself including running." As a former law enforcement officer [retired] I was taught, and common sense dictates, that the moroe time you have to react, the more options you have to both defend yourself and prevent the situation escalating into a fatal outcome. The 21-foot rule was never intended to be a rule, and as you so eloquently pointed out, no two situations are alike. As for concealed carry, you rightly pointed out that it takes far longer to pull a weapon when it is under layers of clothing. Again, distance is your friend and time gives you the ability to consider other options including running. To many people on both sides are dying, law enforcement and citizens alike. We need FAR MORE TRAINING on DESCALTION to avoid these confrontational situations in the first place. Good video as always. Thank you.
Absolutely, I want to be choosing my surroundings so that I have no need for a ccw. I look for threats when I’m out to be able to react long before there is a confrontation. I am going to distance myself quickly from any situation where I’m nervous. If they are a threat, they will need to find another target. At home, a threat will be neutralized, however.
Having carried and shot handguns long before CCW became a "thing" it was always my contention that anything, even a rock, was a deadly weapon! Prior to so many lawyers defending armed attackers I always felt safe to protect myself with whatever was available, thinking I would be recognized as the potential victim. Nowadays I am not sure I wouldn't lose my life to a misguided jury and court system!!
Sad but absolutely true statement especially with all those idiots trying to gain fame in mass shootings. The government has allowed this to manifest itself by reducing education, respect to others, parents not allowed to discipline their children without threats from the government locking parents up for being educators of their children. I saw this changing begin in the early 1980's when kids were rewarded for killing in video games and it's spread to bad uneducated mental health the government once again empowered psychologist to label and drug children with 3 and 4 letter acronyms. If we started today to correct this, it would take 2 decades at a minimum.
Self defense should be an effort to de-escalate, or get to a place of safety. It is not OK to try to kill them. Your goal shouldn’t be your judge and jury and they get death even if they are not in your home. If they are in your home is cause to shoot, but outside your home is something else entirely. Killing ppl for turning around in a driveway or daring to knock on your door is not cause to shoot them.
Wow, I just completed my concealed carry class. I need to share this video with my instructor. At 72 years of age, my reaction times are much slower than they were in my youth. Because of the '21 rule', I've limited my practice to 7 yards. Tomorrow I'll extend that practice distance. Thanks for your contribution.
At 78 years old my reaction times are slower than normal and I always have to keep that in mind. I have had a CCW for over 20 years plus being a retired Air Force Master Sergeant and have never had to draw my weapon in anger or defense, I have been very lucky. But I keep that in mind always.
SALUTE, I WAS STATIONED AT LACKLAND AFB WHILE IN THE NAVY, I SERVED WITH ARMED FORCES POLICE DETACHMENT, AN STAYED AT THE NAVY MASTER ST ARMS BARRACKS. THOSE AF WERE A PLEASURE TO SERVE WITH, AGAIN HAND SALUTE @thatsmytwocents4372
My best friend was a NYPD. During his training he seen a video of an officer at the end of a poorly lit corridor where the perp was in excess of 21 feet. The “bad guy” was able to get to the officer and opened up his chest. I currently am part of a security program and i tell my officers to disregard that old rule. Great video and sharing
I have taught concealed carry classes in multiple states for over 20 years. I have always done an excercise in class with my students where I am charging at them with a simulated knife from over 20 feet away. I start the exercise with the question and survey of students what they think about the threat of a bad guy at 20 feet. The average person cannot get one round off from my blue training gun pulling it from their pocket. This video is well researched and well presented. One of the most important ideas Tom shared was that anyone carrying concealed is going to have to add time to the clock while drugs and shear momentum can play a part as well. So many varibles to consider in this scenario. I hope everyone is shouting out warnings at 30 feet because if they are closer than 20 feet your concealed carry will do you no good. Thanks Tom for a great video!
My experience with the 21 foot rule is it’s the minimum distance required and as you stated trained officers need every inch of that 21 feet. As a civilian we need way more distance along with lateral movement to come close .
Are you allowing the waste humans within this fake security perimeter? You learned how the waste humans are dressed and lied about in [elementary school] right?
The 21 ft rule made me aware of the safety gap we need and how important awareness is in self defense. I'm older and am authentic and do not have a sub 2 second draw time. It's very important for us to pay attention. This is a great video and I look forward to seeing more. THANKS.
my family always laugh because when we go out in public I have to face the door. sorry but doing security and armored car for over 15 years will make you act like that.
When I took my class the instructor told us of the 21 ft. He said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "if someone with a knife is within 21 feet of you and attacks, you're probably going to get stabbed. It's up to you how many times."
Saw body cam vid with officer woman called to disturbance. He ran to her at at least 50 -60 feet with a hammer. ..she got the hammer pretty bad and she got off 2 wild shots during beating and only wounded him. This was lately. Yes family filed charges on the pice woman and all was on body cam. Lot to think about.
@@tystone48..I seen that same video. It's amazing how fast someone can cover that distance so fast. Especially if you are not prepared for it! My friend (retired cop) said the same thing.
excellent point! A physically-fit human holding a knife, can cover 21.5 ft. in less than a split second, and cut the femoral artery in either one of one's thigh, and that's not even factoring in the chemical elements...how much more can they do after being shot ( even multiple times) when they are doing PCP, Meth or crack ? One would "bleed-out" or loose conciousness even before applying a tourniquet above the knee...those are real statistics, and not even hypothetical, because i have seen it myself!
@@tystone48police officers shouldn’t be women from all the bodycam footage ive seen they can’t do anything outside of lethal force and they draw their guns on routine traffic stops for no reason
Thanks Tom, I wasnt aware of the 21 foot rule. I was in the Navy for about 8 years and detached to the Marines for about 7 years. Once you do a favor or two for a Gunny Sargeant you'll get a 10 fold return. This Gunny worked with me for months - Saturdays, Fridays. He taught me specifics on how to shoot and drilled the daylights into me of when to shoot, what to shoot, my pistol or my rifle. As I recall the, if the enemy is suddenly in front of you... shoot. The military (Marines) always shoot, though they do have rules of We were never taught "hey, if you're in Wal-Mart and a criminal appears with a knife demanding something and an attitude... should I shoot, wait until he acts, or hide..." The Marines had an issue with the terms "Proportionate and Proportionality" that's a can of worms. With the example above, I would encourage all the people in his proximity to move away and clear out anyone in behind the knife so if a gun is fired, any stray bullets or through and though rounds are not lively to hit someone. This 8s why I don't carry in public. I need a 100 hours of situational awareness and objective outcomes
Great answer. More people need to acquire what you have learned in the military. We were rigorously taught that a Knife can in many scenarios, be deadlier than a firearm. My instructor, who is now in the street-crimes division of a municipal police department, showed us all the fatal areas a knowledgable, knife-wielding attacker will target upon the human body, and apt to accomplish in the blink of an eye....I hope i am never faced with that situation.
Friend, I had many great sailor friends when I was in the Marines. I would suggest it is way past time to learn and practice situational awareness on a daily basis. There are many online videos you can listen to to understand various situations and your reaction to them as well as many training classes at ranges. Lastly get your CCW and carry as much as possible. I am retired and stay busy with food delivery. I concealed carry and go through endless scenarios on how I’d react while I am out and about. I also stay away from those areas where trouble could find you. My head is on a swivel and if a situation looks sketchy I go around the block until the coast is clear. I frequent the range regularly to practice with my go to weapons one of which is a forty five. It is ingrained in a Marine to use this caliber, as we typically find ourselves outnumbered in battle. Semper Fi Be safe.
Excellent explanation and recommendation to move away from the term “21 Foot Rule”. A key point I picked up on was when you mentioned in Buchanan v. San Jose the suspect was engaged by officers at a distance of approximately 55 feet, and continued to advance collapsing at approximately 18 feet from the officers. 55 - 18 = 37 feet the suspect advanced towards the officers after they began engaging him. 37 feet is 1.76 times great than 21 feet. Point being, if they had waited to engage until the suspect armed with an edged weapon was approximately 21 feet from the officers, the suspect could have easily been on them before he collapsed. So yes, a “line in the sand” of 21 feet is a bad idea, but the concept of Reactionary Gap which can have many factors is a much more valid concept.
Great discussion. I’ve re-evaluated my reaction gap. For this 63 y.o. in the reactionary state of Califoo, estimated time to reach & open lockable box, load, enquire and warn, squint and land two tells me to allow 210 ft +15 sec= 420 ft. So, my only safe distance is in NV or AZ. 🤠
Tom, great presentation on a topic that turns out to be clear as mud. As far as I'm concerned, one can throw the "21 foot rule" in the trash can with regards to being a provable defense. Technically, if we are to be subject to the 21 foot rule, it should be modified to take into consideration whether is was daylight or dark (and was the perp wearing black clothing), snowing or raining, was the perp running uphill or downhill, and a bunch of other "what ifs". Too bad it's not possible to set up such an event for each of the jury members and let them get a feel for what goes on in their head as a "perp" runs toward them screaming and waving a stun gun in their direction. Really enjoy the points of view you bring to us and the clam, calculated demeanor with which you make your points. Keep up the good work.
I’ve CCW for 40 years. Always be aware of your surroundings. One of the most crucial is getting in and out of your vehicle. I see people completely oblivious to what is going on around them. Also, weakness makes you a target. Hyena don’t pick the strongest gazelle to attack, they look for the weakest. Your posture, stance. If you see something suspect, make sure they know you’re aware of them. And always carry your pdw. I know guys who only carry when they think there might be a threat! lol. I say to them what are you psychic? It’s not going to happen when you’re looking for it, it’s when you least expect it. And practice. Run dry fire drills. The what if drills. Know your firearm inside and out. I’ll go to the range with some of my friends, and they’re looking for the safety, or have a malfunction and can’t clear it. SMH. It’s a huge responsibility carrying a firearm. Treat it as such
Great info. I totally agree that drawing from concealment takes much longer and even for the common person it will cause a distraction time to move clothing out of the way that may get hung up on the gun or be a little tight or something to this effect will cause them to take more time to draw and even refocus on the threat than from an open holster. When shooting in competition with open holster my draw time to trigger pull is significantly faster than from my average day to day clothing. 21’ rule is good as a rule of thumb but not absolute for the reason you so clearly expressed in this video. This should be expressed in every Conceal Carry class. Thanks for your insights!
After reading all the comments I couldn't add anything will done. Trained Armed Security Guard in Florida, and yes we do train reactionary distance as it is different for everyone, depending mainly on situations such as open or concealed and years of training, we officers here must recertify every year and anyone worth a pound of salt are on the training grounds weekly or as often as possible. Best advice I could give to anyone with a firearm, training training training the more rounds down range you can put the better off you will be prepared for any situation. Be Safe out there and God Bless you all. Thank you for a great video Tom.
In the late 80s we discussed these concepts in depth while doing martial arts. We devised and ran scenarios with paintball markers. The distances that could be Traversed the reaction time delays were stunning. Situational awareness is absolutely critical.
What about muggers who pretend to just be walking by and then strike when close? We need something to blind them so we can safely flee. Or a head shot.
Exactly my Point! Just moved to Arizona, an open carry state, and although i am near Scottsdale, it has been a long time since going back to an urban environment. At 66, my reaction time has been grossly affected. I discovered several months back in a training class,that a skilled, healthy 'youngster' could easily close that designated distance -given my reaction time. Been practicing since.
honestly i was shocked that this was not brought up in the Rittenhouse trial. realistically if he touched the gun like he did he could of taken it. if he waited a second longer he would of been dead un armed or armed
Reactionary gap is a much more applicable term than 21 feet. Even with years of training on defensive techniques and situational awareness, every event is going to demand a different reaction to the threat. Thank you for bringing this to light.
Thank you for this clear presentation. While a self defense shooting becomes questionable at extended range (ex 100 yds) UNLESS receiving rifle fire (ex Texas Tower), not all of us are capable of drawing and firing in under 2 seconds from a concealed carry position. Where the laws need to acknowledge this is by allowing a draw if threatened, provided the citizen does not AIM at anyone, but merely accesses his/her weapon. Allowing the attacker to SEE his intended victim is armed may defuse some situations, or given a sudden rush, may allow the defender to use his/her weapon IN TIME.
VERY insightful video! I'm just a regular guy, nobody special in the world of firearms - and I've long known of the 21' rule as well as the physics behind how it came to be. But you go far deeper into those physics here, making regular folks aware of the need to not only train to reduce our individual reactionary gaps, but also to look far beyond that 21 feet and explore our options. Is there time to maneuver? Can I escape instead of engage? Can I engage without harming innocent people? These are but a few things that we as armed citizens need to be mindful of well before we're faced with an attacker bent on causing harm. Also, I appreciate the notion that the reactionary gap principle allows for essentially any person, wearing any type of clothing, and with essentially any level of firearm training to be able to defend themselves within their own personal capabilities. It creates a time-based precedent, not a distance-based one. And that appears, up front at least, to bolster support for the armed individual protecting himself or herself in the face of an imminent threat. Thank you for all you do in support of responsibly armed Americans nationwide!
Great summary of a greatly misunderstood study. My first CCW training was in Kern county in CA with an excellent instructor (Craig Powers). He used the Tueller drill as guidance to understand the reactionary gap or some similar description. He also highly recommended “Deadly Force Understanding Your Right to Self Defense” by Mas Ayoob. In it Mas discusses “Grasping Tueller’s Principle” which you have done succinctly from the lawyers perspective. If I am ever involved in a SD incident in Wisconsin you will be on my short list of calls.
As an older armed citizen, I think we should not have hard and fast rules but more evaluation of the individual persons limitations and strengths. I appreciate how your broke down this issue and explained it.
Exactly what I wrote and think. I'm old , slow , and quite Brittle! If some young big dude is coming at me bare handed....I'm getting seriously Hurt if I don't shoot him. Hurt way more than falling in the shower and breaking my hip. An Animal coming after the Elderly should be put down.
I can't react as fast as my mind can think, but I sometimes surprise myself how quick I can draw from a concealed position and move. I see alot of people at the range just simply point and shoot at a stationary target. Those are the ones who potentially be dangerous because they never draw from a concealed position, or move. Just take their weapon from a duffle bag, load, point, and shoot and cuss because they missed the targets. I move away from those types. They have no idea if the weapon is empty, cleared and just nonchalantly point it in the direction of others on the range. Very unconscious of others around.
@@michaelemerson7646 i have a consistent 1.50 sec draw , double tap into center mass. A solid 2.0 on the move to the left ,right and most importantly Backing Up! Thanks for sharing 🍸
I have often suspected that the so-called "21 foot rule" theory is flawed, mostly for the same reasons that you addressed in this video. Also, I agree that more research should be done to investigate the "reactionary gap" hypothesis as this makes much more sense to me. Enjoyed this video, Mr. Grieve. Your insights were much appreciated. I've also enjoyed watching your appearances on the Military Arms Channel. Keep informing those of us in the 2A community, so that we always stay up to date and most importantly...stay safe.
This is an excellent disposition on the “21’ Rule”. It was actually an excellent idea to do the experiment in how fast can a LEO draw a weapon vs a rushing attacker. It gave good insight to the reality how quickly one can be attacked even when you know it’s coming. The experiment if nothing else shows 1. the importance of situational awareness and 2. training with your weapon.
I’ve been a certified firearms instructor for over 35 years. I have a BA in Criminal Justice and an MA in National Security with concentrations in both Intelligence Analysis and Counterterrorism. I graduated with Honors. I first learned of the Tueller drill not rule when I saw a now out of circulation video put out by a law enforcement agency in Minnesota called Surviving Edged Weapons. The basic rule that comes out of the Tueller Drill is that unless you already have your sidearm drawn and in your hands with a deadly threat is presented where the weapon involved is a blade, you’re more likely to survive if you go hand to hand rather than trying to draw your own sidearm. An appropriate response might be to go for a collapsible baton (ASP) could be acceptable for survival in such a situation.
IPSC matches had me at 0.3 seconds. My officer buddy has a safety holster. Over two seconds is something he thinks is his best. Less lethal force for that distance because they had enough time to retreat, change weapons, and mitigate threats.
Thanks Tom , I’ll be 70 this year and have just begun my education of owning a firearm. Guys such as myself can benefit from all available information that will allow us to make good decisions about our safety and that of others around us!
Very good information. Great food for thought, I totally agree with your assessment of the term (21 foot rule) being potentially very harmful to the 2A/self defense community. Looking forward to following your channel going forward. This type of information/content is an asset to us all. Thanks for taking the time to put it out there. New subscriber, came over after learning about your channel from you mentioning it on a USCCA video. I appreciate all you do for the self defense/2A community. God bless you and yours.
Well sir you have given me something to think about. I have had CC classes and this was not brought up at all in no way shape or form. I am also a non law enforcement person, I got the handgun for personal defense which I believe we have that right to do. But you bring up a lot of info supported by your experience and I was not aware of when considering something like our law enforcement officers involved in shootouts with gunman or attackers. I don’t think they just shoot people for no reason, after all they stand between right and wrong and it is their job. You have made me question whether I would be outside the 21 foot area would I survive physically, mentally and legally? Thank you for the food for thought, and for the video. 👏👍
This is an outstanding video and a real eye opener. Tom's points about the differences between presentation time, i.e. draw and shoot, for LEOs vs everyday CONCEALED carry holders is very important. Practicing drawing and firing the first shot is very important. Many people, me included, tend to practice "precision" shooting with our carry gun. We watch videos of Bob Vogel, who can draw and hit 5 plates in the time we might get our edc gun into position to shoot the first shot and we want to duplicate his accuracy. I think one takeaway from this video is most of us need more realistic practice. Drawing from your concealment system with all sorts of clothing combinations; summer and winter and firing a pair as fast as safely possible. Another point not covered by Tom but important is what do we do with our carry gun while driving? Can you draw it if you keep it on your body while seat belted? Should you remove the handgun out of your holster system and have it loose in the car, say on the seat. We need to figure this out, I know I do, since cars and crimes are often linked. Thanks, Tom, great video.
Learning about this in my Maryland Wear & Carry permit class today. Instead of "rule" I think it's still a good frame of reference or starting point. It gives the trainee something to think about with how fast they, themselves, may need to put shots on target to stop a threat. Sticking hard and fast to "Anything within 21ft is ok" or conversely "Cannot react if outside 21ft" are both likely to be more harm than good. But still a valuable study and reference.
I totally agree to that, every person has different abilities, different carry positions and in addition to that there's a lot of different circumstances to take in to account when deciding to draw and shoot under stress with the ability to be fast enough to avoid being injured and not to cause collateral damage ... Definitely it's a Lot more than a 21 foot distance issue...
Having taken physiology I always wondered about movie kills where the guy is shot in the torso and instantly drops dead or unconscious as in those high noon duels.
Very concise!! I think that martial arts training can be a factor in how fast someone with a knife can get to you. Reaction time is always a factor in attacks. Thank you so much for your insight Sir!!
I've been training people to shoot since about 1970. And I started hearing about this in the late 70s after I had left the service, and in 1970 by the way, I was about 14 years old and was teaching people to shoot in competition in my high school as I was learning the use of an M14 as well as 1911's as well as many other Firearms quite heavily looting their application and their unique features. I still haven't found a pistol that has been designed better than a 1911. I have noted that although other Firearms are more modern, they still can't replace a properly functioning 1911. When you use the fire are properly it works just as well as any other, and better than most. I do remember this drill coming out, and I have repeated that drill and number of times back in the 80s and as usual I found that 75% of police officers with their firearm already in their hand could not stop someone from cutting them, within 25 ft. And that included protecting themselves from somebody that weighed about 325 lb because nobody understood that in a second and a quarter a large man can cover that distance quite readily. People do not understand the massive amount of strength to somebody has when they weigh that much. And when they only have to cover about 20 to 25 ft they can do it in a hurry. That said you're also talking about someone who knows what the drill is the only thing on their mind is stopping that person from getting to them. Which means it has no application out on the street for your attentions are divided. Nor does it occur when your adrenaline is at a higher level and your reaction times actually shrink considerably when the effect of Tachapsychia occurs. I have seen some truly amazing feats occur because of that psychological element of Engagement. And that is extremely rare to repeat in training drills. I've met very few people who can put themselves into that psychological framework. It is possible,, but his is extremely rare except with people who have a considerable amount of control over their psychological capabilities. It is not within the realm of the vast majority of police officers. This b******* that police officers are somehow special human beings is a crock of s***. They are subject to the same egotistical maniacal asinine Behavior as almost everybody else on the planet. As a result, if one has a reasonable suspicion that someone is armed, they need to heighten their awareness starting it about 30 ft. This 21-foot rule crap is exactly that and will get people killed. You have to be able to judge from people's behavior, of which police officers are piss poor at. Whether or not a person is a threat or not. That frequently is not exhibited many times by their behavior. It is not always exemplified only within their behavior. Police officers have this abject fear of somebody they haven't gotten ID from even though I D can only be required from somebody if they have a realistic suspicion of their having or about to commit a crime. I have seen officers who have an abject fear of people with their hands in their pockets, and the most people who have their hands in their pockets are not a danger to them. That's just the way they comport themselves. Once they get within about 10 or 12 ft though you do need to have them at least take their hands out of their pockets to see how they do so and what may be going on, and there is behavior and that that can elicit a response that you're looking for. Way too much to go into here. But I could see the 9th circus court of appeals actually applying this with in-law. And courts should not write law. We are already seeing the concept of qualified immunity which was created by the courts have a disturbing effect on police officers that have used their position and abused the qualified immunity so that they can actually put people in prison that aren't guilty of a damn thing. It has no business existing. Qualified immunity should be applied on a case-by-case basis through direct observation of what the officer did moment-to-moment. And judged against the results of that behavior. Without making an enemy of the civilians who actually outrank the police officer. Police officers do not have rights. Not a single one. When they are acting as a police officer or working as a police officer. They have a limited amount of authority granted unto them. They haven't a right to do a damn thing. What civilians do have rights and it's their rights and their Authority that is granted to the police officer to allow him the limited Authority that he has. The problem we have many police officers, is they think that that Authority is unlimited. That's a much greater threat to an innocent civilian walking down the street been discussing this 21 foot rule. I thought this was old hat.
I was really suspicious from this video title, but this is really well done. Speaking as someone who's taught CCW permit classes, and engaged in a lot of lobbying work. 4-7 seconds is common for CCW draw, depending on styles of holster or clothing, requiring one "look for an opening", and where 50 feet can be too close. But it's hard to prove intent that far away in common circumstances. Potential jurors really need this education.
Excellent information. Situational awareness is a must & had no bearing to the 21 ft rule. When you deem your health or life is in imminent danger should be the only determining factor. That puts a tremendous burden on that determination. It should also cause those judging those actions to feel that burden and judge accordingly. Even if the 21 ft rule was adopted by law, who in their right mind is able to accurately judge that exact distance while a charging predator with a knife is bearing down. That’s insane.
This retired LEO was trained under the 21-foot rule. I heard that the rule was extended, but never heard at what length. This clears things up with a better understanding of the risk. When being retired, my situation will be different now and my risk factors will be different. Even retired, I will be held to a higher standard than the average citizen. Great video!
This is why academy's are training officers to give up ground at a 45° angle while drawing. You are gaining distance and gaining an advantage by being to the attackers side, which will make it harder to attack, similar to a lot of martial arts. I was in law enforcement for 16 years, when I was in the academy we had one of the instructors charge at us with a fake knife, he was 55 years old, he was able to clear the distance about the same time it took to draw. To help compensate for the time, we were taught to draw, immediately pivot the gun 90 ° right out of the holster pointing at the target, then come up to aim. This would allow us to get shots off while the gun was still at holster level and fire all the way up to in front of our face to get aimed shots. At this range, pointing shooting would get hits. You can get between 2-4 shots off while moving up to your eyes, depending on the person. Do not underestimate older people.
Thank you very much. Clarity and realistic perceotion are yours to share. Im a 73 yr old female being stalked by a vicious male in his 20 s. His m.o. is to appear in the wee hours revving his engine and filling the cabin of my RV with deadly carbon monoxide thus driving me outside whete he attacks me. Cops were called 6 times for menacing and obcene threats before the attack. He phone filmed me coming to his window telling him to stop then leapt out of his venicle battering me in the face with the phone until i hit the ground. Fearing to be run over i got up and faced him. He struck me again and i went down .i got up and closed with him and he fled to his vehicle filming me chasing him. I screamed i would call the cops and I did. They believed him and said it never happened. My call was hidden but i made them dig up the call via the operators number. He is still after me. He has a false id and cant be identified. Should i get a gun? I filed complaint with detective who believed me and saw hospital report and pictures. Thanks for listening. Janet.
Thank you. I feel much more educated on this subject, although it may not affect my reaction much. I'm not a LEO, and "if I fear for my life"...is what I'll probably go with.
Excellent Video. I'm a big fan. As a police officer with over 45 years of service, we trained the reactionary gap regularly. Personally, my experience with the "rule" was that it was meant to demonstrate "how close was too close" and the need for distance and tactics between an officer and a suspect in order to maintain the safety of BOTH. We were never trained to use it as a "rule" for justifying deadly force - but it was used to show that an armed attacker under the conditions of the original test could cause serious bodily harm or death even when 21 feet from an officer. We ran our own "tests/demonstrations" and were always able to show that greater distances were often needed depending on the senses, reflexes, and physical abilities of both the officer and the attacker. I've often wondered if the original test used averaged times for both the attacker's velocity and the officer's draw and fire. Statistically speaking, the average of a theoretical normal distribution of data represents only half of the data used to calculate the average. Example: the average of 100 seconds, 200 seconds, and 300 seconds is 200 seconds. Without splitting hairs and while avoiding strict statistics, the data shows that the average time is 200 seconds - but that as little as 100 seconds up to as much as 300 seconds was observed. Love your channel.
Thank you Mr Grieve for a well done and informative video. Several comments have raised a question for me. First, I am a 73yo man so my reaction time is clearly not what it use to be. I'm not going to be winning any foot races nor will I win any fisticuffs. As a CCW holder, can I draw my gun from the holster, not brandish it but simply hold it down at my side (Michigan is an open carry state), in an effort to a) hopefully deescalate the situation and/or b) to allow for a better reaction time if the attacker continues to advance? Speaking of fisticuffs, a powerful blow to the head of a senior citizen, by a closed fist is certainly more likely to cause severe bodily harm or even death, than if a younger person is hit. How does that, or does that, play into the right of a senior citizen to defend him/her self against a threat of severe bodily harm even though the attacker does not have a "weapon"?
I’ve taken self defense classes over the years. The 21 ft rule was presented to the group.I practice quick draw to achieve more accurate sight alignment. Practice doesn’t make it perfect, but your motor skills take over. I’ve had my CCW 43 years and had to present my weapon 11/22, I was able to stop the situation and leave unharmed. Very thankful for past training, I was able to stay calm. Please everyone,take some training, especially low light situations. It will build confidence.
Great video Tom. This is why my live fire training is at 8 yards / 24 feet. Train, Train , Train.And my online training since I became part of the USCCA family back in December.
Liking and posting for that catchy Al Gore Rhythm! Staying for the great, intelligent commentary! There should be NO rule as ridiculous as this. Everyone's reaction time is different, Everyone's draw speed is different. Everyone's ability to put shots on target quickly and accurately is different. Everyone's style of dress and method of carry is different. To put everyone within the same 21 foot/2 shots center mass in 1.5 seconds limit or requirement, regardless of how they dress, how they carry, what their age is and what their physical capabilities are is absolutely ASSININE!
I agree. Being an old padded male with arthritis my abilities may be quite different from a young athletically built agile person. I also noticed that "ASSININE" contains the same letters as "IS INSAINE"
There are often times when an individual may stay outside this imagined line and with only using good judgment will the right thought process prevail but it will never be the same every time and only you can make this call and right or wrong you have to live with the decisions you make. So absolutely train train train.
Thank you for this video, it was nice to hear the history you added for people who were somewhat, or possibly even totally, unaware. I've used this theory in my training of people for years. People should give it a try, get out you blue guns, rubber knives and tape measures then have at it. Most everyone I've trained over the years, even those who feel they are proficient, are many times surprised by the outcome. rp
I was in law enforcement a number of years ago, some of which involved firearm training & I recall being told to no longer mention the "21 foot rule." I didn't know why & was never told, but thanks to you, I now do, & have a much broader understanding of the concept.
A well presented video by a Defense Attorney, legally armed citizens a lot to consider when deciding when and if it's necessary to draw your firearm. Thanks Tom.
After watching and listening to your excellent presentation it completely changed my mind set. As an 83 year old ex- Marine and gun owner and fire arm fan. I always felt that in that moment where I had to act or die I would prevail. But not now, I have changed my mind about carry alltogether. Carrying a concelled weapon in some cases will make you feel like "John Wayne"., First rule when im out and about I am self aware of my surroundings. I remember being on vacation in NYC in 1966, when a cab driver dropped my bride and I off at an address I gave him for a dining spot. when we got out it was dark and the spot he dropped us off in felt wrong . The Cab drove off and I looked around and survayed my surroundings I quickly realized that we could be in danger and that it could be a setup! My evade and escape training kicked in and we were fine but not without alot of apprehentsion on both our parts getting back to safety. My first recommendation would be to any one in a situation, look for a way get away fast. Maybe carrying a good concealable switchblade could save your life.
yep, courts will always look for what a reasonable person/officer would do in the situation. someone can be deadly at 22 feet away. someone may not be deadly at 12 feet away.
I'm a 35 year active duty vet and Wounded Warrior. I've also had a carry permit for 30+ years. I go through 200-400 pistol rounds every time I go to the range (at least twice a month). Half those rounds are timed accuracy practice with the gun drawn and pointed down range. The other half consist of timed self-defense practice: that is, hands above my head, gun in holster, draw, aim and double tap. During my self-defense practice I will change the distance from me to the target. I will shoot one target or two to simulate more than one threat, or a threat that is moving. Punching holes in paper is fun, but self-defense drills are vital to a real-world concealed carry self-defense situation. I agree with Tom's premise that the 21 foot "rule" is flawed to the point of becoming a victim or a survivor. I prefer the latter. Another great video Tom!
This rule leaves very little room for error. And shows the importance of recognizing your situation and options if something came down unexpected. Especially a change in your circumstances 😢
While it wasn't relevant to this discussion, LEO are often confronted with drug-induced assailants which have been known to "override" normal responses to trauma such as gunshots. This is why you have shoot until the threat is stopped. Much more distance is needed to stop a threat in someone who is on drugs and threatening. For CCW carriers you often don't even have 21 feet to react. I live in Kentucky where, thankfully, self defense is still considered a priority in most of these situations. I appreciate the info given. It is valuable to have as much knowledge as possible in case you are ever confronted with a situation like this. Thank you.
I would like to see an experiment where 9 Circuit Court judges separately identify a perceived space of 21 feet! I would love to see the plus/minus stats on that! Now have each one of them do it with a linebacker encroaching down on them!
Excellent video, and a lot of good points. I get to the range fairly often, have my CCW and completed an intermediate handgun class from an experienced law enforcement trainer. We practiced concealed carry draw and two shots on target. Very hard to get under 2 seconds when you are standing there waiting for the beep. As the time goes up, the distance increases so your situational awareness needs to encompass a much larger circle. I shudder to think how long it would take when one is engaged in another activity or even seated and a threat appears unexpectedly. I would recommend trying some timed draws with a two shot response. It is a real eye opener for situational awareness.
Once saw a RUclips video on how to handle the reaction gap. As the attacker begins their run begin retreating while at the same time circling around the attacker. You will be increasing the distance between you and the attacker and at same time, by circling, you multiply the factor at which you are increasing the gap whilst affecting the attacker's balance. You will be mostly moving sideways while the attacker will be forced into making a turn with a changing radius. Of course you are drawing while doing this. No mention was made regarding which way to move but I would suggest that since the attackers is listed as welding a knife I would move towards the side without a weapon. This would mean he/she has to attack across their body.
As a fellow Con/CrimLaw police instructor I applaude this video. It clears up what many believe is an inviolate 'Rule'. You logically blow that away. I will use your material, with attribution, to many in my classes. Thank You for blowing a myth away.
Tom, I appreciate all of your legal awareness training. This type of training is so valuable to all concealed carriers. Thank you and keep this information coming.
Thanks for this video, Tom. I've seen/heard you on several USCCA videos and always find your topics and comments highly informative. This one particularly piqued my curiosity as I had of heard the 21-foot "rule" but always assumed it was factually founded. Years ago, my CCW trainer insisted - during every trip to the range - training to safely point and shoot one handed, 3 to 5 rapid-fire shots center mass at a target 21 feet away in under 3 seconds. As I understood, the purpose of drill is multi-fold: - First, 21 feet is a universally justifiable distance for use of deadly force against a threat of life or serious bodily harm. [Note: At that time there was no right to "Stand your Ground" in this state, so at more than 21 feet I would be expected to flee the situation. This has changed since then.] - Second, I would never have more than 3 seconds to stop a deadly attack by an assailant starting at 21 feet away; there is no time for a proper 2-hand grip or sighted aim. - Third, it would likely take at least 3 shots to stop the attack - but do not stop firing until the threat is stopped, regardless of the number of shots it takes. (Limited only by rounds capacity.) - Fourth, I need to be able to "accurately" recognize the distance of 21 feet from my present position. [Refer to First, above.] The instructor stated this with authority, but didn't mention any background on it. Yes, this drill was included in the live-fire portion of the CCW exam. He also made it clear that while I may have an advantage (my attacker(s) should not know I'm armed), in an actual attack scenario I will have at least 3 or 4 time-consuming disadvantages: (1) - My attacker(s) will know his/her/their intentions seconds to minutes before I will. (2) - I will almost always have to safely draw my firearm from concealment before I can place the first shot, while my attacker(s) will already be prepared when the attack is launched, regardless of their choice of weapon. (3) - I have to act responsibly, where the attacker(s) do not; I have to be aware of where every shot I make may land, in the event of an adrenaline-induced miss (or 2); I have to judge the level of threat, and I have to decide whether I can possibly avoid the fight altogether. So I have to make some additional split-second decisions. (4) - If the attacker is armed with a firearm, it will be deployed before I can "legally" deploy mine, so I may have to swiftly move to cover rather than just draw-point-shoot. With that, and I certainly can't speak for trained law enforcement, in my opinion 1.5 seconds is not near enough time at 21 feet to reasonably ensure a good outcome from an armed attacker already in motion. In fact I doubt my instructor's 3 seconds is sufficient. Thanks again. BTW - I'm a long time member of USCCA and firmly believe in what they do as a team.
Mr Grieve, Another aspect to the 1983 train was those officer were most likely at their peak performance; in shape, ready for the test with no injuries and lots of recent training. The average beat cop doesn't train regularly on firearms, its not in the budget, and on average cops suck at shooting. Firearm proficientcy is a skills and it is a perishable skill. In training a lot of officers use a standard holster. Once an officer has been working the streets a few years many switch to a retention holster. Generally it takes more time to draw and clear leather because of the retention devices built into the holsters. I use to wear a level three retention holster. The firearms trainers used to say I was slow because it took 1.5 seconds to draw from my holster, then another second to get on target and apply the 1st round. I also gained a bunch of weight, had a few injuries. One advantage with time in the field is experience but it can make you over confident in your abilities as well. Nice video. Have a nice day.
In the world of concealed carry, there is a LOT TO KNOW. Great video and very important information. It's good that the legal precedent did not become disastrous for concealed carry.
Due to the resent War the Marine Corps started training for the warriors to be more proactive. Look up the book "Left of Bang" this book has changed the way I go through my day. As a long-time concealed carry user and a Marine Corps veteran I have had more training than most. Even though I left active duty in the late '80s, I still work and deal with our finest warriors on a daily basis. We all should learn and practice the left of bang theory in our daily walks through life!!
I remember the 21 foot rule back in the '80's. We had just transitioned from revolvers to semi-autos. Then the 21 foot rule came up. We did a similar experiment and yes if they are that close they can indeed close that gap if you're not paying attention, but when you are told ahead of time and you are just waiting for them to move it depended more on the officers skill than the distance, especially if your weapon had an external safety. My Sgt. also pointed out that your feet are not rooted in the ground, you can move to concealment, move to cover, blind them with the flashlight (my shift 10:30-6:30 off SM), back pedal, dodge to the side, use your baton, or Mace. We had to ditch the saps, and didn't have pepper spray or tasers at that time. Surrounding the threat one in front talking the other behind both constantly moving so as to intimidate, checking background, find street light, car, a knife is a serious weapon but two officers working together using tactics, not just standing still pointing weapons, issuing commands, have a chance of resolving that threat rather quickly. We also had brainstorming sessions back in the day, some called it choir practice, but you heard ideas from others on how else you could have done things. However, not long after we heard of the 21 rule a Sgt. (not mine) took a chefs knife through his forearm even though there were three other officers in the room with him at the time, the woman was only a few feet away and they thought that the show of force and the power of persuasion would be enough. No one had a weapon drawn, after she stabbed Sgt. they pounced on her and took her into custody, but the damage was done. If she was he, Sgt. would likely just punched him and the others would have jumped in before he had a chance to stab, but being a woman, he let his guard down. As far as the 21 foot rule, it only works if you give them a stationary target to charge with nothing in-between you and them and time to let them decide what they are going to do. As my Sgt. would often tell me, you've got a brain, use it.
Thank you for being so thouough in addressing " all of the above ". You have clearly shown the dangers that exist in all demensions ; from the attacker, from the " law ", from being uneducated, and from not being prepared experience and by practicing tactics and awareness ... The best of a bad situation ... better to learn and train and be prepared as much as possible and realize ignorance not only is no excuse but it can get you killed or snarled in the legal system. God help us to avoid the situation if at all possible !
Fifty years out of the corps and I practice Situational Awareness everyday everywhere. Some used to call me paranoid until we entered the 911 attacks period. Twenty years ago I was with my then 12 yr old son in a mall in Jersey. We were on the second floor when we heard a huge commotion on the first level. It was a flash mob fight involving the usual perp types we see today. I had my son drop down below eyesight, I quickly assessed the situation knowing all the entry and exit points specific to our location and signaled to him to run after me. We sprinted about 250 feet to an upstairs exit close to our car and left the area within a very short period of time. Bottom line was I always practice sit awareness you never know when things will go sideways. Be safe out there folks…
IMHO the rule is flawed because it thinks of it as one reaction and one action. More realistically it is three actions, draw, aim, and fire. And draw is the huge part of it. Once drewn (lowered) the time to raise the gun is a fraction of a second and once aimed the time to fire is in tenths of a second. So sure, unholstering your weapon at twenty one feet or longer from an edged weapon holder is prudent. But if they are still twenty one feet away after you've drawn you have a huge reaction gap advantage on them.
I absolutely love your channel. I truly appreciate the content that you share, the time that you take to prepare it, but more importantly, and I believe this to be true for many, you explain it in a matter that you do not talk down to anyone, you keep it simple and clear and direct. I do not allow many notifications on RUclips, but your channel is one of them and I share it with many others. Thank you again! God Bless!
This is such a convoluted area of the whole gun issue. I was an LEO for 19 years, and had several incidents where I was attacked by an unarmed party and therefore a victim of battery on an LEO due to the close quarters one frequently finds themselves in while in a residence. I was just fortunate in that none of the handful of attackers were armed. So frequently, the biggest gap you have is a fraction of 21 feet...I'll call it a rule of thumb. At those ranges, you Don't stand that much of a chance against an armed attacker. Again...i was just fortunate. You raise an excellent point that I think a large number of CCW practitioners are unfortunately unaware. I was involved in an incident wherein an attacker was shot four times, once with a cardiac injury, and still had to be taken down physically with brute force. He expired several minutes later after he had continued to fight after takedown. People should EXPECT that their aggressor IS NOT GOING DOWN even with a double tap to the center of mass. The phrase that was used when I was training as a rookie was "we shoot to stop...not to kill," and sometimes it takes a lot more to take an individual down than one would ever imagine. (Do not interpret that as a suggestion that one blindly empty your weapon when it is deployed. Again...it's the totality of circumstances that matters.) I always enjoy your videos. You are a real resource.
The “21 foot rule” as you described was derived from a test done by trained officers. It should be added that those officers carried revolvers carried in holsters that featured almost zero retention features in 1980. They were designed to be fast draw type holsters. Now days officers carry flash lights and often red dot sights making their pistol much slower into action, and carry them inside triple retention holsters. 1.5 second draw in modern times would be very well faster than average. In my personal testing I have timed runners to cover 40 feet from a dead stop in the time it takes the students to draw and fire their first shot.
I agree drop the 21 foot rule and use reactionary measures and skill sets to define when it’s time to deploy your weapon. I like your videos because they make sense. Thank you.
I was trained on this without the name or calling it a rule. I agree with your assesment, mostly from hunting experience. Thank you for an excellent pragmatuc and well illustrated logical breakdown.
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I would think different rules should be held for different sexes and ages every incident should be looked upon according to the circumstances considering all aspects of the situation.
So perhaps police shouldn't stop vehicles for traffic violations. This would reduce the number of motorists that are ended "for officer safety"
Nearly 40 years ago, a cousin of mine was shot over a board game in his home. He was trying to escape out the door when he was shot (side) in the chest with a .30-06 rifle (capable of killing an Alaskan Moose). The shot took out a portion of his heart. He got out of the house and ran down the alley before being shot in the back with a second round (same gun/shooter). He made it to the sidewalk before collapsing (still alive). A passerby stopped and held him as he uttered his last words prior to leaving this world. My point? Yes, a human being CAN physically function after being shot by a fatal wound, from a rifle, not just a pistol. In this case, it was fear-based adrenaline. What could a PCP drug-charged attacker do? I don't think a victim should be put in a position of having to justify defending himself from an attacker.
Just curious what was the disagreement between the shooter and your cousin ? Were they playing monopoly and the shooter did not want to go to jail
@@jamesadams893 Shooter had been drinking, was losing and decided everyone else was cheating. He shot a second victim in the neck (he survived).
One of the reasons for the 1911 45 auto was that the troops fighting in the Philippines need something that would "knock down" the crazed huk fighters high on drugs. The troops would shoot then with the 30 cal carbine and the machete armed huks would keep on coming and hit the soldier with the machete.
@@seniorrider9337 TRUE: the .38 Service Revolver was anemic, the .45 Colt was reestablished as it is ; a fight stopper.
Now we have excellent loads for the 9mm and .38.
But many of us with big game experience prefer the weight and frontal area of the "old .45 ACP" even tho this is controversial yet.
Your history is on topic, mine is kinda related; lol.
So sorry for the loss over a game is no reason to kill some one
Great video, Tom! I know, as a 63 old guy, my Reactionary Gap is a whole lot different now than in was 20-30 years ago. I have to be more aware, more alert and more prepared than ever.
I'm 70 and frail, so my reaction times have diminished alot, but I still carry because I now feel I have a target painted on me due to age and health for some young gangs to do me harm. I still train to keep memory and actions as fast and safe as possible.
Because you have a weapon no human could want? Others do?
@@bunk95what?
67 here, I make it a point to just avoid anything that is tactically questionable. 21’ rule my eye, every situation is different.
@@tonyromano6220 100% 21ft is just one scenario, an attacker will get as close to you as possible before revealing their intentions exactly so you do not have any time to react, element of surprise. You must be aware of threats and minimize your exposure to them and maximize distance from them.
It was never intended to be a “rule”! And it wasn’t taught that way to law enforcement officers here in Utah. It was simply a training tool to get officers to realize how quickly things can happen and to improve situational awareness. It’s ridiculous to think this should ever be taught as a rule! Your position is spot on and important information for anyone who uses a firearm for self defense or actually anyone potentially facing any self defense situation.
Thank you!
Exactly. But those outside law enforcement and attorneys specifically want things to be tidy and with rules for things like a gunfight. There are no rules except win. They grabbed a hold of 21 ft and made it gospel. I wonder how many cops died or were injured because of the teaching of 21 ft by stupid department heads and instructors.
Nampa PD ID 1995-2012 would’ve been 28 years today of all days if it weren’t for a pesky scumbag. Lol.
He addressed that "rule" @11:00
100% - it isn't a "rule but a instead a "principle". And the totality of the circumstance must always be the final deciding factor... well done and excellent presentation Mr. Grieve. Everyone (not just 2A/firearms carriers) should watch this...
At times when taking semi-auto fire from a lunatic, 200 feet is to close
Thank you Tom. The lack of ads in this video show me that you are not promoting anyone but are out to help people. Much appreciated sir.
As a retired Army combat arms officer and a long time licensed concealed carrier your discussion has forced me to carefully reconsider my reaction to an armed threat. Thank you.
Me too as well. It's a lot to unpack.
The 21 foot rule is probably way out dated , it was based on the average officers skills at that time . Today it can not be considered realistic . My teacher was very much involved in this project.
I let my crazed attacker get 2 feet away... and God let him leave without hurting anyone. I was young and untrained in this kind of encounter. No Excuses... next time I will kill for the protection it provides against a committed attacker. 21 feet in the near future . America is falling to crime and violence. I took an oath..........
@@Sifujonrister Oh hell yea, way outdated. For over 2 decades I've been looking at their paces/strides, not mine, theirs, also teaching that. First two will probably be paces, the others will be strides. Never move straight back, brace for an impact of some sort. On to recovery checking surroundings as to adjusting for other.... sorry, getting into mindset drilling and keeping people alive. ....(I'll finish)for other threats while keeping an eye on the initial.
As a retired Army combat arms noncommissioned officer, I still carry a 1911 with 230 grain rapidly expanding (HST) bullets. Also having experience in both Afghanistan and Iraq, I learned the value of headshots.
Your content is quite literally the most professional and detail-oriented stuff on RUclips today.
As a self-defense instructor, situational awareness is the most important aspect of all defensive actions. The more time you have to react the more options you have to defend yourself including running. Don't let pride get you hurt or locked up.
Indeed!
I teach the same and I require students to live fire qual at 3,5,and 7 yards for that same reason...
AGREE, The best encounter is the one your NOT IN..
If you’re taking a giant dump in a outhouse and a ninja blows it up while you were shitting how would you then deal with situational awareness?
@@ryeinn6971 Fair enough. But c'mon, you gotta die of something. It's a rule.
I use to be an officer in Ohio in the late 80's and early 90's. The edged weapon training used the 21 foot rule. I always thought that was too close because someone who is a trained knife fighter, former military, who know to deliver strikes that could disable a police officer. Thank you for proving my point.
Thanks for the strong advice..., I need it. "Old Navy Nuke Security", followed by armed prison guard, ...I have a sensitive trigger finger anyway. 21 feet it is, henceforth.
@@rodneycaupp5962 😂😂😂😂
I had called it the Homicidal Distance when I was with the NYPD in the 90s
Rules for engagement for a plain ordinary citizen wanting something as a weapon to defend themselves against criminals shouldn't come with expert military or police training. Response time will vary from the moment to a perceived threat to the actual threat time in distance will vary from eyes to brain calculations to clothing and type or position of carry are so variable. It takes more than practice at a gun range or tree stump. Accuracy is mute if your perceived response time lags. Adrenaline is a strange element.
Thing is the military doesn't train you to knife fight 🤣😂🤣 If they do include it in basic hand to hand it's very very minimal back then Read a book 😂
So much wisdom in this man. I’m grateful we have someone like this in the 2A community!
Watch Mark Smith of "Four Boxes Diner", if you want to watch a Pro-2A powerhouse.
Ya he does great videos.
I'd vote for him.
Mark Smith and Tom Grieve are my go to guys about firearm law and 2A information !
The volume is to low
As Ken said below: "The more time you have to react the more options you have to defend yourself including running." As a former law enforcement officer [retired] I was taught, and common sense dictates, that the moroe time you have to react, the more options you have to both defend yourself and prevent the situation escalating into a fatal outcome. The 21-foot rule was never intended to be a rule, and as you so eloquently pointed out, no two situations are alike. As for concealed carry, you rightly pointed out that it takes far longer to pull a weapon when it is under layers of clothing. Again, distance is your friend and time gives you the ability to consider other options including running. To many people on both sides are dying, law enforcement and citizens alike. We need FAR MORE TRAINING on DESCALTION to avoid these confrontational situations in the first place.
Good video as always. Thank you.
Absolutely, I want to be choosing my surroundings so that I have no need for a ccw. I look for threats when I’m out to be able to react long before there is a confrontation. I am going to distance myself quickly from any situation where I’m nervous. If they are a threat, they will need to find another target. At home, a threat will be neutralized, however.
Having carried and shot handguns long before CCW became a "thing" it was always my contention that anything, even a rock, was a deadly weapon! Prior to so many lawyers defending armed attackers I always felt safe to protect myself with whatever was available, thinking I would be recognized as the potential victim. Nowadays I am not sure I wouldn't lose my life to a misguided jury and court system!!
Sad but absolutely true statement especially with all those idiots trying to gain fame in mass shootings. The government has allowed this to manifest itself by reducing education, respect to others, parents not allowed to discipline their children without threats from the government locking parents up for being educators of their children. I saw this changing begin in the early 1980's when kids were rewarded for killing in video games and it's spread to bad uneducated mental health the government once again empowered psychologist to label and drug children with 3 and 4 letter acronyms. If we started today to correct this, it would take 2 decades at a minimum.
Which is why I'm running with everyone else because it is simply not worth the legal bs
true n sad
As to a misguided jury and court system: From most lawyers, "A jury is composed of people not smart enough to get out of serving."
Self defense should be an effort to de-escalate, or get to a place of safety. It is not OK to try to kill them. Your goal shouldn’t be your judge and jury and they get death even if they are not in your home. If they are in your home is cause to shoot, but outside your home is something else entirely. Killing ppl for turning around in a driveway or daring to knock on your door is not cause to shoot them.
Wow, I just completed my concealed carry class. I need to share this video with my instructor. At 72 years of age, my reaction times are much slower than they were in my youth. Because of the '21 rule', I've limited my practice to 7 yards. Tomorrow I'll extend that practice distance. Thanks for your contribution.
Tom, you produced the best explanation of the 21 ft rule I’ve ever viewed. As a Retired Police officer that’s saying something!
At 78 years old my reaction times are slower than normal and I always have to keep that in mind. I have had a CCW for over 20 years plus being a retired Air Force Master Sergeant and have never had to draw my weapon in anger or defense, I have been very lucky. But I keep that in mind always.
If you have to start drawing your weapon on Thursday for an attack that occurs on Saturday, it does put you at a disadvantage !!!
😂🎉😢😅😊
SALUTE, I WAS STATIONED AT LACKLAND AFB WHILE IN THE NAVY, I SERVED WITH ARMED FORCES POLICE DETACHMENT, AN STAYED AT THE NAVY MASTER ST ARMS BARRACKS. THOSE AF WERE A PLEASURE TO SERVE WITH, AGAIN HAND SALUTE @thatsmytwocents4372
My best friend was a NYPD. During his training he seen a video of an officer at the end of a poorly lit corridor where the perp was in excess of 21 feet. The “bad guy” was able to get to the officer and opened up his chest. I currently am part of a security program and i tell my officers to disregard that old rule. Great video and sharing
Your best friend was fictional?
Your best friend was fictional?
I have taught concealed carry classes in multiple states for over 20 years. I have always done an excercise in class with my students where I am charging at them with a simulated knife from over 20 feet away. I start the exercise with the question and survey of students what they think about the threat of a bad guy at 20 feet. The average person cannot get one round off from my blue training gun pulling it from their pocket. This video is well researched and well presented. One of the most important ideas Tom shared was that anyone carrying concealed is going to have to add time to the clock while drugs and shear momentum can play a part as well. So many varibles to consider in this scenario. I hope everyone is shouting out warnings at 30 feet because if they are closer than 20 feet your concealed carry will do you no good. Thanks Tom for a great video!
My experience with the 21 foot rule is it’s the minimum distance required and as you stated trained officers need every inch of that 21 feet. As a civilian we need way more distance along with lateral movement to come close .
21 feet when you know the attack is coming and you're carrying OWB.
IWB concealed and when attacked unprovoked that gap opens up considerably.
Both parties are civilian, unless you're dealing with federal police.
Trained officers are fictional.
Are you allowing the waste humans within this fake security perimeter?
You learned how the waste humans are dressed and lied about in [elementary school] right?
The 21 ft rule made me aware of the safety gap we need and how important awareness is in self defense. I'm older and am authentic and do not have a sub 2 second draw time. It's very important for us to pay attention. This is a great video and I look forward to seeing more. THANKS.
"pay attention to your surroundings", good advice.
my family always laugh because when we go out in public I have to face the door. sorry but doing security and armored car for over 15 years will make you act like that.
Fake saftey gap. Arent you being kept as a slave until death?
When I took my class the instructor told us of the 21 ft. He said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "if someone with a knife is within 21 feet of you and attacks, you're probably going to get stabbed. It's up to you how many times."
Damn. That’s one way to look at it. Lol!
Saw body cam vid with officer woman called to disturbance. He ran to her at at least 50 -60 feet with a hammer. ..she got the hammer pretty bad and she got off 2 wild shots during beating and only wounded him.
This was lately. Yes family filed charges on the pice woman and all was on body cam. Lot to think about.
@@tystone48..I seen that same video. It's amazing how fast someone can cover that distance so fast. Especially if you are not prepared for it! My friend (retired cop) said the same thing.
excellent point! A physically-fit human holding a knife, can cover 21.5 ft. in less than a split second, and cut the femoral artery in either one of one's thigh, and that's not even factoring in the chemical elements...how much more can they do after being shot ( even multiple times) when they are doing PCP, Meth or crack ? One would "bleed-out" or loose conciousness even before applying a tourniquet above the knee...those are real statistics, and not even hypothetical, because i have seen it myself!
@@tystone48police officers shouldn’t be women from all the bodycam footage ive seen they can’t do anything outside of lethal force and they draw their guns on routine traffic stops for no reason
Thanks Tom, I wasnt aware of the 21 foot rule. I was in the Navy for about 8 years and detached to the Marines for about 7 years. Once you do a favor or two for a Gunny Sargeant you'll get a 10 fold return. This Gunny worked with me for months - Saturdays, Fridays. He taught me specifics on how to shoot and drilled the daylights into me of when to shoot, what to shoot, my pistol or my rifle. As I recall the, if the enemy is suddenly in front of you... shoot. The military (Marines) always shoot, though they do have rules of We were never taught "hey, if you're in Wal-Mart and a criminal appears with a knife demanding something and an attitude... should I shoot, wait until he acts, or hide..." The Marines had an issue with the terms "Proportionate and Proportionality" that's a can of worms. With the example above, I would encourage all the people in his proximity to move away and clear out anyone in behind the knife so if a gun is fired, any stray bullets or through and though rounds are not lively to hit someone. This 8s why I don't carry in public. I need a 100 hours of situational awareness and objective outcomes
Great answer. More people need to acquire what you have learned in the military. We were rigorously taught that a Knife can in many scenarios, be deadlier than a firearm. My instructor, who is now in the street-crimes division of a municipal police department, showed us all the fatal areas a knowledgable, knife-wielding attacker will target upon the human body, and apt to accomplish in the blink of an eye....I hope i am never faced with that situation.
Friend, I had many great sailor friends when I was in the Marines. I would suggest it is way past time to learn and practice situational awareness on a daily basis. There are many online videos you can listen to to understand various situations and your reaction to them as well as many training classes at ranges. Lastly get your CCW and carry as much as possible. I am retired and stay busy with food delivery. I concealed carry and go through endless scenarios on how I’d react while I am out and about. I also stay away from those areas where trouble could find you. My head is on a swivel and if a situation looks sketchy I go around the block until the coast is clear. I frequent the range regularly to practice with my go to weapons one of which is a forty five. It is ingrained in a Marine to use this caliber, as we typically find ourselves outnumbered in battle. Semper Fi Be safe.
Excellent explanation and recommendation to move away from the term “21 Foot Rule”. A key point I picked up on was when you mentioned in Buchanan v. San Jose the suspect was engaged by officers at a distance of approximately 55 feet, and continued to advance collapsing at approximately 18 feet from the officers. 55 - 18 = 37 feet the suspect advanced towards the officers after they began engaging him. 37 feet is 1.76 times great than 21 feet. Point being, if they had waited to engage until the suspect armed with an edged weapon was approximately 21 feet from the officers, the suspect could have easily been on them before he collapsed. So yes, a “line in the sand” of 21 feet is a bad idea, but the concept of Reactionary Gap which can have many factors is a much more valid concept.
Perfectly stated and exactly correct! 👍
Great discussion.
I’ve re-evaluated my reaction gap. For this 63 y.o. in the reactionary state of Califoo, estimated time to reach & open lockable box, load, enquire and warn, squint and land two tells me to allow 210 ft +15 sec= 420 ft.
So, my only safe distance is in NV or AZ. 🤠
Tom, great presentation on a topic that turns out to be clear as mud. As far as I'm concerned, one can throw the "21 foot rule" in the trash can with regards to being a provable defense. Technically, if we are to be subject to the 21 foot rule, it should be modified to take into consideration whether is was daylight or dark (and was the perp wearing black clothing), snowing or raining, was the perp running uphill or downhill, and a bunch of other "what ifs".
Too bad it's not possible to set up such an event for each of the jury members and let them get a feel for what goes on in their head as a "perp" runs toward them screaming and waving a stun gun in their direction.
Really enjoy the points of view you bring to us and the clam, calculated demeanor with which you make your points. Keep up the good work.
I’ve CCW for 40 years. Always be aware of your surroundings. One of the most crucial is getting in and out of your vehicle. I see people completely oblivious to what is going on around them. Also, weakness makes you a target. Hyena don’t pick the strongest gazelle to attack, they look for the weakest. Your posture, stance. If you see something suspect, make sure they know you’re aware of them. And always carry your pdw. I know guys who only carry when they think there might be a threat! lol. I say to them what are you psychic? It’s not going to happen when you’re looking for it, it’s when you least expect it. And practice. Run dry fire drills. The what if drills. Know your firearm inside and out. I’ll go to the range with some of my friends, and they’re looking for the safety, or have a malfunction and can’t clear it. SMH. It’s a huge responsibility carrying a firearm. Treat it as such
Great info. I totally agree that drawing from concealment takes much longer and even for the common person it will cause a distraction time to move clothing out of the way that may get hung up on the gun or be a little tight or something to this effect will cause them to take more time to draw and even refocus on the threat than from an open holster. When shooting in competition with open holster my draw time to trigger pull is significantly faster than from my average day to day clothing. 21’ rule is good as a rule of thumb but not absolute for the reason you so clearly expressed in this video. This should be expressed in every Conceal Carry class. Thanks for your insights!
After reading all the comments I couldn't add anything will done. Trained Armed Security Guard in Florida, and yes we do train reactionary distance as it is different for everyone, depending mainly on situations such as open or concealed and years of training, we officers here must recertify every year and anyone worth a pound of salt are on the training grounds weekly or as often as possible. Best advice I could give to anyone with a firearm, training training training the more rounds down range you can put the better off you will be prepared for any situation.
Be Safe out there and God Bless you all.
Thank you for a great video Tom.
In the late 80s we discussed these concepts in depth while doing martial arts. We devised and ran scenarios with paintball markers. The distances that could be Traversed the reaction time delays were stunning. Situational awareness is absolutely critical.
What about muggers who pretend to just be walking by and then strike when close? We need something to blind them so we can safely flee. Or a head shot.
Add in the time that elapses where the potential victim is stunned into inaction, and the distance is really approaching 50’.
Yup, condition 'yellow' is very much a thing.
Exactly my Point! Just moved to Arizona, an open carry state, and although i am near Scottsdale, it has been a long time since going back to an urban environment. At 66, my reaction time has been grossly affected. I discovered several months back in a training class,that a skilled, healthy 'youngster' could easily close that designated distance -given my reaction time. Been practicing since.
At ranges in my area, practicing draw from concealment is not allowed. Double taps are called "rapid fire" and also not allowed.
That is ridiculous.
Same rules at my outdoor range. Not helpful
And that's why you own your own land. City living isn't for me.
honestly i was shocked that this was not brought up in the Rittenhouse trial. realistically if he touched the gun like he did he could of taken it. if he waited a second longer he would of been dead un armed or armed
Yeah I was wondering that too
Would of . Stupid or ignorant? Would have .
@@carlosugarte1450 Some people didn’t pay attention in school. They should stay off social media and give their diploma back.
@@brianthomas9220 maybe some people need to shut up and mind their own.🤔
@@Joshua-of9vq Perhaps some people need to learn how to spell and write like an adult. :(
Reactionary gap is a much more applicable term than 21 feet. Even with years of training on defensive techniques and situational awareness, every event is going to demand a different reaction to the threat. Thank you for bringing this to light.
Thank you for this clear presentation. While a self defense shooting becomes questionable at extended range (ex 100 yds) UNLESS receiving rifle fire (ex Texas Tower), not all of us are capable of drawing and firing in under 2 seconds from a concealed carry position. Where the laws need to acknowledge this is by allowing a draw if threatened, provided the citizen does not AIM at anyone, but merely accesses his/her weapon. Allowing the attacker to SEE his intended victim is armed may defuse some situations, or given a sudden rush, may allow the defender to use his/her weapon IN TIME.
VERY insightful video!
I'm just a regular guy, nobody special in the world of firearms - and I've long known of the 21' rule as well as the physics behind how it came to be. But you go far deeper into those physics here, making regular folks aware of the need to not only train to reduce our individual reactionary gaps, but also to look far beyond that 21 feet and explore our options. Is there time to maneuver? Can I escape instead of engage? Can I engage without harming innocent people? These are but a few things that we as armed citizens need to be mindful of well before we're faced with an attacker bent on causing harm.
Also, I appreciate the notion that the reactionary gap principle allows for essentially any person, wearing any type of clothing, and with essentially any level of firearm training to be able to defend themselves within their own personal capabilities. It creates a time-based precedent, not a distance-based one. And that appears, up front at least, to bolster support for the armed individual protecting himself or herself in the face of an imminent threat. Thank you for all you do in support of responsibly armed Americans nationwide!
Great summary of a greatly misunderstood study. My first CCW training was in Kern county in CA with an excellent instructor (Craig Powers). He used the Tueller drill as guidance to understand the reactionary gap or some similar description. He also highly recommended “Deadly Force Understanding Your Right to Self Defense” by Mas Ayoob. In it Mas discusses “Grasping Tueller’s Principle” which you have done succinctly from the lawyers perspective. If I am ever involved in a SD incident in Wisconsin you will be on my short list of calls.
As an older armed citizen, I think we should not have hard and fast rules but more evaluation of the individual persons limitations and strengths. I appreciate how your broke down this issue and explained it.
Exactly what I wrote and think. I'm old , slow , and quite Brittle! If some young big dude is coming at me bare handed....I'm getting seriously Hurt if I don't shoot him. Hurt way more than falling in the shower and breaking my hip. An Animal coming after the Elderly should be put down.
I can't react as fast as my mind can think, but I sometimes surprise myself how quick I can draw from a concealed position and move. I see alot of people at the range just simply point and shoot at a stationary target. Those are the ones who potentially be dangerous because they never draw from a concealed position, or move. Just take their weapon from a duffle bag, load, point, and shoot and cuss because they missed the targets. I move away from those types. They have no idea if the weapon is empty, cleared and just nonchalantly point it in the direction of others on the range. Very unconscious of others around.
@@michaelemerson7646 i have a consistent 1.50 sec draw , double tap into center mass. A solid 2.0 on the move to the left ,right and most importantly Backing Up! Thanks for sharing 🍸
@@caseykelso1🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
I have often suspected that the so-called "21 foot rule" theory is flawed, mostly for the same reasons that you addressed in this video. Also, I agree that more research should be done to investigate the "reactionary gap" hypothesis as this makes much more sense to me. Enjoyed this video, Mr. Grieve. Your insights were much appreciated. I've also enjoyed watching your appearances on the Military Arms Channel. Keep informing those of us in the 2A community, so that we always stay up to date and most importantly...stay safe.
This is an excellent disposition on the “21’ Rule”. It was actually an excellent idea to do the experiment in how fast can a LEO draw a weapon vs a rushing attacker. It gave good insight to the reality how quickly one can be attacked even when you know it’s coming. The experiment if nothing else shows 1. the importance of situational awareness and 2. training with your weapon.
I'm glad you addressed the additional time needed for drawing from concealment. I'm going to implement these principles in my classes. Great material.
I’ve been a certified firearms instructor for over 35 years. I have a BA in Criminal Justice and an MA in National Security with concentrations in both Intelligence Analysis and Counterterrorism. I graduated with Honors.
I first learned of the Tueller drill not rule when I saw a now out of circulation video put out by a law enforcement agency in Minnesota called Surviving Edged Weapons.
The basic rule that comes out of the Tueller Drill is that unless you already have your sidearm drawn and in your hands with a deadly threat is presented where the weapon involved is a blade, you’re more likely to survive if you go hand to hand rather than trying to draw your own sidearm.
An appropriate response might be to go for a collapsible baton (ASP) could be acceptable for survival in such a situation.
Great video. After evaluating all the info and my ability, I have renamed this the 36 foot rule.
lol! This is an improvement I suppose
I thinking of those guys in bear territory it’s probably more like 40 feet.
IPSC matches had me at 0.3 seconds. My officer buddy has a safety holster. Over two seconds is something he thinks is his best. Less lethal force for that distance because they had enough time to retreat, change weapons, and mitigate threats.
Extremely valuable awareness for anyone who carries - excellent coverage of this concept - thank you for taking the time to produce this video
Thanks Tom , I’ll be 70 this year and have just begun my education of owning a firearm. Guys such as myself can benefit from all available information that will allow us to make good decisions about our safety and that of others around us!
Very good information. Great food for thought, I totally agree with your assessment of the term (21 foot rule) being potentially very harmful to the 2A/self defense community.
Looking forward to following your channel going forward. This type of information/content is an asset to us all. Thanks for taking the time to put it out there.
New subscriber, came over after learning about your channel from you mentioning it on a USCCA video. I appreciate all you do for the self defense/2A community. God bless you and yours.
Well sir you have given me something to think about. I have had CC classes and this was not brought up at all in no way shape or form. I am also a non law enforcement person, I got the handgun for personal defense which I believe we have that right to do. But you bring up a lot of info supported by your experience and I was not aware of when considering something like our law enforcement officers involved in shootouts with gunman or attackers. I don’t think they just shoot people for no reason, after all they stand between right and wrong and it is their job. You have made me question whether I would be outside the 21 foot area would I survive physically, mentally and legally?
Thank you for the food for thought, and for the video. 👏👍
This is an outstanding video and a real eye opener. Tom's points about the differences between presentation time, i.e. draw and shoot, for LEOs vs everyday CONCEALED carry holders is very important. Practicing drawing and firing the first shot is very important. Many people, me included, tend to practice "precision" shooting with our carry gun. We watch videos of Bob Vogel, who can draw and hit 5 plates in the time we might get our edc gun into position to shoot the first shot and we want to duplicate his accuracy. I think one takeaway from this video is most of us need more realistic practice. Drawing from your concealment system with all sorts of clothing combinations; summer and winter and firing a pair as fast as safely possible. Another point not covered by Tom but important is what do we do with our carry gun while driving? Can you draw it if you keep it on your body while seat belted? Should you remove the handgun out of your holster system and have it loose in the car, say on the seat. We need to figure this out, I know I do, since cars and crimes are often linked. Thanks, Tom, great video.
practice makes perfect..good point!
Got here via a short and glad I made it! Your expanded view was very enlightening! Thanks!
Learning about this in my Maryland Wear & Carry permit class today. Instead of "rule" I think it's still a good frame of reference or starting point. It gives the trainee something to think about with how fast they, themselves, may need to put shots on target to stop a threat. Sticking hard and fast to "Anything within 21ft is ok" or conversely "Cannot react if outside 21ft" are both likely to be more harm than good. But still a valuable study and reference.
@bikerbobcat I'm glad you guys in Maryland can carry now, Thanks to Supreme Court Ruling.
I totally agree to that, every person has different abilities, different carry positions and in addition to that there's a lot of different circumstances to take in to account when deciding to draw and shoot under stress with the ability to be fast enough to avoid being injured and not to cause collateral damage ... Definitely it's a Lot more than a 21 foot distance issue...
Having taken physiology I always wondered about movie kills where the guy is shot in the torso and instantly drops dead or unconscious as in those high noon duels.
Very concise!! I think that martial arts training can be a factor in how fast someone with a knife can get to you. Reaction time is always a factor in attacks. Thank you so much for your insight Sir!!
Thanks Wayne!
Articulated, explained in a fair and clear way. What a gem of a channel I've just found!
I've been training people to shoot since about 1970. And I started hearing about this in the late 70s after I had left the service, and in 1970 by the way, I was about 14 years old and was teaching people to shoot in competition in my high school as I was learning the use of an M14 as well as 1911's as well as many other Firearms quite heavily looting their application and their unique features. I still haven't found a pistol that has been designed better than a 1911. I have noted that although other Firearms are more modern, they still can't replace a properly functioning 1911. When you use the fire are properly it works just as well as any other, and better than most.
I do remember this drill coming out, and I have repeated that drill and number of times back in the 80s and as usual I found that 75% of police officers with their firearm already in their hand could not stop someone from cutting them, within 25 ft. And that included protecting themselves from somebody that weighed about 325 lb because nobody understood that in a second and a quarter a large man can cover that distance quite readily. People do not understand the massive amount of strength to somebody has when they weigh that much. And when they only have to cover about 20 to 25 ft they can do it in a hurry. That said you're also talking about someone who knows what the drill is the only thing on their mind is stopping that person from getting to them. Which means it has no application out on the street for your attentions are divided. Nor does it occur when your adrenaline is at a higher level and your reaction times actually shrink considerably when the effect of Tachapsychia occurs. I have seen some truly amazing feats occur because of that psychological element of Engagement. And that is extremely rare to repeat in training drills. I've met very few people who can put themselves into that psychological framework. It is possible,, but his is extremely rare except with people who have a considerable amount of control over their psychological capabilities. It is not within the realm of the vast majority of police officers. This b******* that police officers are somehow special human beings is a crock of s***. They are subject to the same egotistical maniacal asinine Behavior as almost everybody else on the planet.
As a result, if one has a reasonable suspicion that someone is armed, they need to heighten their awareness starting it about 30 ft. This 21-foot rule crap is exactly that and will get people killed. You have to be able to judge from people's behavior, of which police officers are piss poor at. Whether or not a person is a threat or not. That frequently is not exhibited many times by their behavior. It is not always exemplified only within their behavior. Police officers have this abject fear of somebody they haven't gotten ID from even though I D can only be required from somebody if they have a realistic suspicion of their having or about to commit a crime. I have seen officers who have an abject fear of people with their hands in their pockets, and the most people who have their hands in their pockets are not a danger to them. That's just the way they comport themselves. Once they get within about 10 or 12 ft though you do need to have them at least take their hands out of their pockets to see how they do so and what may be going on, and there is behavior and that that can elicit a response that you're looking for. Way too much to go into here. But I could see the 9th circus court of appeals actually applying this with in-law. And courts should not write law. We are already seeing the concept of qualified immunity which was created by the courts have a disturbing effect on police officers that have used their position and abused the qualified immunity so that they can actually put people in prison that aren't guilty of a damn thing. It has no business existing. Qualified immunity should be applied on a case-by-case basis through direct observation of what the officer did moment-to-moment. And judged against the results of that behavior. Without making an enemy of the civilians who actually outrank the police officer. Police officers do not have rights. Not a single one. When they are acting as a police officer or working as a police officer. They have a limited amount of authority granted unto them. They haven't a right to do a damn thing. What civilians do have rights and it's their rights and their Authority that is granted to the police officer to allow him the limited Authority that he has. The problem we have many police officers, is they think that that Authority is unlimited. That's a much greater threat to an innocent civilian walking down the street been discussing this 21 foot rule. I thought this was old hat.
I was really suspicious from this video title, but this is really well done.
Speaking as someone who's taught CCW permit classes, and engaged in a lot of lobbying work. 4-7 seconds is common for CCW draw, depending on styles of holster or clothing, requiring one "look for an opening", and where 50 feet can be too close. But it's hard to prove intent that far away in common circumstances.
Potential jurors really need this education.
Excellent information. Situational awareness is a must & had no bearing to the 21 ft rule. When you deem your health or life is in imminent danger should be the only determining factor. That puts a tremendous burden on that determination. It should also cause those judging those actions to feel that burden and judge accordingly. Even if the 21 ft rule was adopted by law, who in their right mind is able to accurately judge that exact distance while a charging predator with a knife is bearing down. That’s insane.
This retired LEO was trained under the 21-foot rule. I heard that the rule was extended, but never heard at what length. This clears things up with a better understanding of the risk. When being retired, my situation will be different now and my risk factors will be different. Even retired, I will be held to a higher standard than the average citizen. Great video!
Retired LEO too, I was told to increase the gap to 30ft in force training classes.
This is why academy's are training officers to give up ground at a 45° angle while drawing. You are gaining distance and gaining an advantage by being to the attackers side, which will make it harder to attack, similar to a lot of martial arts.
I was in law enforcement for 16 years, when I was in the academy we had one of the instructors charge at us with a fake knife, he was 55 years old, he was able to clear the distance about the same time it took to draw.
To help compensate for the time, we were taught to draw, immediately pivot the gun 90 ° right out of the holster pointing at the target, then come up to aim. This would allow us to get shots off while the gun was still at holster level and fire all the way up to in front of our face to get aimed shots. At this range, pointing shooting would get hits. You can get between 2-4 shots off while moving up to your eyes, depending on the person.
Do not underestimate older people.
Sounds like martial arts of all kinds are built on good footwork.
Thank you very much. Clarity and realistic perceotion are yours to share. Im a 73 yr old female being stalked by a vicious male in his 20 s. His m.o. is to appear in the wee hours revving his engine and filling the cabin of my RV with deadly carbon monoxide thus driving me outside whete he attacks me. Cops were called 6 times for menacing and obcene threats before the attack. He phone filmed me coming to his window telling him to stop then leapt out of his venicle battering me in the face with the phone until i hit the ground. Fearing to be run over i got up and faced him. He struck me again and i went down .i got up and closed with him and he fled to his vehicle filming me chasing him. I screamed i would call the cops and I did. They believed him and said it never happened. My call was hidden but i made them dig up the call via the operators number. He is still after me. He has a false id and cant be identified. Should i get a gun? I filed complaint with detective who believed me and saw hospital report and pictures.
Thanks for listening.
Janet.
Thank you. I feel much more educated on this subject, although it may not affect my reaction much. I'm not a LEO, and "if I fear for my life"...is what I'll probably go with.
Excellent Video. I'm a big fan. As a police officer with over 45 years of service, we trained the reactionary gap regularly.
Personally, my experience with the "rule" was that it was meant to demonstrate "how close was too close" and the need for distance and tactics between an officer and a suspect in order to maintain the safety of BOTH. We were never trained to use it as a "rule" for justifying deadly force - but it was used to show that an armed attacker under the conditions of the original test could cause serious bodily harm or death even when 21 feet from an officer. We ran our own "tests/demonstrations" and were always able to show that greater distances were often needed depending on the senses, reflexes, and physical abilities of both the officer and the attacker.
I've often wondered if the original test used averaged times for both the attacker's velocity and the officer's draw and fire. Statistically speaking, the average of a theoretical normal distribution of data represents only half of the data used to calculate the average. Example: the average of 100 seconds, 200 seconds, and 300 seconds is 200 seconds. Without splitting hairs and while avoiding strict statistics, the data shows that the average time is 200 seconds - but that as little as 100 seconds up to as much as 300 seconds was observed.
Love your channel.
Criminals conceal carry. Every adult should be able to conceal carry without a permit anywhere at anytime, so criminals don't know who's armed.
Great explanation Tom!
Thank you Mr Grieve for a well done and informative video. Several comments have raised a question for me. First, I am a 73yo man so my reaction time is clearly not what it use to be. I'm not going to be winning any foot races nor will I win any fisticuffs. As a CCW holder, can I draw my gun from the holster, not brandish it but simply hold it down at my side (Michigan is an open carry state), in an effort to a) hopefully deescalate the situation and/or b) to allow for a better reaction time if the attacker continues to advance? Speaking of fisticuffs, a powerful blow to the head of a senior citizen, by a closed fist is certainly more likely to cause severe bodily harm or even death, than if a younger person is hit. How does that, or does that, play into the right of a senior citizen to defend him/her self against a threat of severe bodily harm even though the attacker does not have a "weapon"?
I’ve taken self defense classes over the years. The 21 ft rule was presented to the group.I practice quick draw to achieve more accurate sight alignment. Practice doesn’t make it perfect, but your motor skills take over. I’ve had my CCW 43 years and had to present my weapon 11/22, I was able to stop the situation and leave unharmed. Very thankful for past training, I was able to stay calm. Please everyone,take some training, especially low light situations. It will build confidence.
Great video! Good situational awareness and movement enhances your capacity to employ a firearm. Denial of reality can get you hurt or worse.
Great video Tom. This is why my live fire training is at 8 yards / 24 feet. Train, Train , Train.And my online training since I became part of the USCCA family back in December.
Liking and posting for that catchy Al Gore Rhythm! Staying for the great, intelligent commentary!
There should be NO rule as ridiculous as this. Everyone's reaction time is different, Everyone's draw speed is different. Everyone's ability to put shots on target quickly and accurately is different. Everyone's style of dress and method of carry is different.
To put everyone within the same 21 foot/2 shots center mass in 1.5 seconds limit or requirement, regardless of how they dress, how they carry, what their age is and what their physical capabilities are is absolutely ASSININE!
Lol, Al Gore rhythm... geezus
I agree. Being an old padded male with arthritis my abilities may be quite different from a young athletically built agile person. I also noticed that "ASSININE" contains the same letters as "IS INSAINE"
There are often times when an individual may stay outside this imagined line and with only using good judgment will the right thought process prevail but it will never be the same every time and only you can make this call and right or wrong you have to live with the decisions you make. So absolutely train train train.
Thank you for this video, it was nice to hear the history you added for people who were somewhat, or possibly even totally, unaware. I've used this theory in my training of people for years. People should give it a try, get out you blue guns, rubber knives and tape measures then have at it. Most everyone I've trained over the years, even those who feel they are proficient, are many times surprised by the outcome. rp
I was in law enforcement a number of years ago, some of which involved firearm training & I recall being told to no longer mention the "21 foot rule." I didn't know why & was never told, but thanks to you, I now do, & have a much broader understanding of the concept.
A well presented video by a Defense Attorney, legally armed citizens a lot to consider when deciding when and if it's necessary to draw your firearm. Thanks Tom.
Thanks Joe! We do our videos at a hugher average effort level, I think. I appreciate you checking us out.
After watching and listening to your excellent presentation it completely changed my mind set. As an 83 year old ex- Marine and gun owner and fire arm fan. I always felt that in that moment
where I had to act or die I would prevail. But not now, I have changed my mind about carry alltogether. Carrying a concelled weapon in some cases will make you feel like "John Wayne"., First rule when im out and about I am self aware of my surroundings. I remember being on vacation in NYC in 1966, when a cab driver dropped my bride and I off at an address I gave him for a dining spot. when we got out it was dark and the spot he dropped us off in felt wrong . The Cab drove off and I looked around and survayed my surroundings I quickly realized that we could be in danger and that it could be a setup! My evade and escape training kicked in and we were fine but not without alot of apprehentsion on both our parts getting back to safety. My first recommendation would be to any one in a situation, look for a way get away fast. Maybe carrying a good concealable switchblade could save your life.
Thank you for your service
Each situation must be judged on its own merits. There should be no hard and fast “codified rule”.
yep, courts will always look for what a reasonable person/officer would do in the situation. someone can be deadly at 22 feet away. someone may not be deadly at 12 feet away.
Who
I'm a 35 year active duty vet and Wounded Warrior. I've also had a carry permit for 30+ years. I go through 200-400 pistol rounds every time I go to the range (at least twice a month). Half those rounds are timed accuracy practice with the gun drawn and pointed down range. The other half consist of timed self-defense practice: that is, hands above my head, gun in holster, draw, aim and double tap. During my self-defense practice I will change the distance from me to the target. I will shoot one target or two to simulate more than one threat, or a threat that is moving. Punching holes in paper is fun, but self-defense drills are vital to a real-world concealed carry self-defense situation. I agree with Tom's premise that the 21 foot "rule" is flawed to the point of becoming a victim or a survivor. I prefer the latter. Another great video Tom!
This rule leaves very little room for error. And shows the importance of recognizing your situation and options if something came down unexpected. Especially a change in your circumstances
😢
While it wasn't relevant to this discussion, LEO are often confronted with drug-induced assailants which have been known to "override" normal responses to trauma such as gunshots. This is why you have shoot until the threat is stopped. Much more distance is needed to stop a threat in someone who is on drugs and threatening. For CCW carriers you often don't even have 21 feet to react. I live in Kentucky where, thankfully, self defense is still considered a priority in most of these situations. I appreciate the info given. It is valuable to have as much knowledge as possible in case you are ever confronted with a situation like this. Thank you.
Thank you for your videos 😊
I would like to see an experiment where 9 Circuit Court judges separately identify a perceived space of 21 feet! I would love to see the plus/minus stats on that! Now have each one of them do it with a linebacker encroaching down on them!
An armed linebacker of course
Excellent video, and a lot of good points. I get to the range fairly often, have my CCW and completed an intermediate handgun class from an experienced law enforcement trainer. We practiced concealed carry draw and two shots on target. Very hard to get under 2 seconds when you are standing there waiting for the beep. As the time goes up, the distance increases so your situational awareness needs to encompass a much larger circle. I shudder to think how long it would take when one is engaged in another activity or even seated and a threat appears unexpectedly. I would recommend trying some timed draws with a two shot response. It is a real eye opener for situational awareness.
Once saw a RUclips video on how to handle the reaction gap. As the attacker begins their run begin retreating while at the same time circling around the attacker. You will be increasing the distance between you and the attacker and at same time, by circling, you multiply the factor at which you are increasing the gap whilst affecting the attacker's balance. You will be mostly moving sideways while the attacker will be forced into making a turn with a changing radius. Of course you are drawing while doing this. No mention was made regarding which way to move but I would suggest that since the attackers is listed as welding a knife I would move towards the side without a weapon. This would mean he/she has to attack across their body.
Eloquently, articulately, realistically and accurately argued, showing the reasons why no one “RULE OR LAW” can apply to every situation.
As a fellow Con/CrimLaw police instructor I applaude this video. It clears up what many believe is an inviolate 'Rule'. You logically blow that away. I will use your material, with attribution, to many in my classes. Thank You for blowing a myth away.
Tom, I appreciate all of your legal awareness training. This type of training is so valuable to all concealed carriers. Thank you and keep this information coming.
Thanks!
Hey, i know you!
Thanks for this video, Tom. I've seen/heard you on several USCCA videos and always find your topics and comments highly informative. This one particularly piqued my curiosity as I had of heard the 21-foot "rule" but always assumed it was factually founded.
Years ago, my CCW trainer insisted - during every trip to the range - training to safely point and shoot one handed, 3 to 5 rapid-fire shots center mass at a target 21 feet away in under 3 seconds. As I understood, the purpose of drill is multi-fold:
- First, 21 feet is a universally justifiable distance for use of deadly force against a threat of life or serious bodily harm. [Note: At that time there was no right to "Stand your Ground" in this state, so at more than 21 feet I would be expected to flee the situation. This has changed since then.]
- Second, I would never have more than 3 seconds to stop a deadly attack by an assailant starting at 21 feet away; there is no time for a proper 2-hand grip or sighted aim.
- Third, it would likely take at least 3 shots to stop the attack - but do not stop firing until the threat is stopped, regardless of the number of shots it takes. (Limited only by rounds capacity.)
- Fourth, I need to be able to "accurately" recognize the distance of 21 feet from my present position. [Refer to First, above.]
The instructor stated this with authority, but didn't mention any background on it. Yes, this drill was included in the live-fire portion of the CCW exam.
He also made it clear that while I may have an advantage (my attacker(s) should not know I'm armed), in an actual attack scenario I will have at least 3 or 4 time-consuming disadvantages:
(1) - My attacker(s) will know his/her/their intentions seconds to minutes before I will.
(2) - I will almost always have to safely draw my firearm from concealment before I can place the first shot, while my attacker(s) will already be prepared when the attack is launched, regardless of their choice of weapon.
(3) - I have to act responsibly, where the attacker(s) do not; I have to be aware of where every shot I make may land, in the event of an adrenaline-induced miss (or 2); I have to judge the level of threat, and I have to decide whether I can possibly avoid the fight altogether. So I have to make some additional split-second decisions.
(4) - If the attacker is armed with a firearm, it will be deployed before I can "legally" deploy mine, so I may have to swiftly move to cover rather than just draw-point-shoot.
With that, and I certainly can't speak for trained law enforcement, in my opinion 1.5 seconds is not near enough time at 21 feet to reasonably ensure a good outcome from an armed attacker already in motion. In fact I doubt my instructor's 3 seconds is sufficient.
Thanks again. BTW - I'm a long time member of USCCA and firmly believe in what they do as a team.
Mr Grieve, Another aspect to the 1983 train was those officer were most likely at their peak performance; in shape, ready for the test with no injuries and lots of recent training. The average beat cop doesn't train regularly on firearms, its not in the budget, and on average cops suck at shooting. Firearm proficientcy is a skills and it is a perishable skill. In training a lot of officers use a standard holster. Once an officer has been working the streets a few years many switch to a retention holster. Generally it takes more time to draw and clear leather because of the retention devices built into the holsters. I use to wear a level three retention holster. The firearms trainers used to say I was slow because it took 1.5 seconds to draw from my holster, then another second to get on target and apply the 1st round. I also gained a bunch of weight, had a few injuries. One advantage with time in the field is experience but it can make you over confident in your abilities as well. Nice video. Have a nice day.
I've seen this one three times and enjoyed it every time. Thank you.
In the world of concealed carry, there is a LOT TO KNOW. Great video and very important information. It's good that the legal precedent did not become disastrous for concealed carry.
Thank you Tom for taking the time to share your experience we really appreciate it Much Respect Bill W.
Due to the resent War the Marine Corps started training for the warriors to be more proactive. Look up the book "Left of Bang" this book has changed the way I go through my day. As a long-time concealed carry user and a Marine Corps veteran I have had more training than most. Even though I left active duty in the late '80s, I still work and deal with our finest warriors on a daily basis. We all should learn and practice the left of bang theory in our daily walks through life!!
I remember the 21 foot rule back in the '80's. We had just transitioned from revolvers to semi-autos. Then the 21 foot rule came up. We did a similar experiment and yes if they are that close they can indeed close that gap if you're not paying attention, but when you are told ahead of time and you are just waiting for them to move it depended more on the officers skill than the distance, especially if your weapon had an external safety. My Sgt. also pointed out that your feet are not rooted in the ground, you can move to concealment, move to cover, blind them with the flashlight (my shift 10:30-6:30 off SM), back pedal, dodge to the side, use your baton, or Mace. We had to ditch the saps, and didn't have pepper spray or tasers at that time. Surrounding the threat one in front talking the other behind both constantly moving so as to intimidate, checking background, find street light, car, a knife is a serious weapon but two officers working together using tactics, not just standing still pointing weapons, issuing commands, have a chance of resolving that threat rather quickly. We also had brainstorming sessions back in the day, some called it choir practice, but you heard ideas from others on how else you could have done things.
However, not long after we heard of the 21 rule a Sgt. (not mine) took a chefs knife through his forearm even though there were three other officers in the room with him at the time, the woman was only a few feet away and they thought that the show of force and the power of persuasion would be enough. No one had a weapon drawn, after she stabbed Sgt. they pounced on her and took her into custody, but the damage was done. If she was he, Sgt. would likely just punched him and the others would have jumped in before he had a chance to stab, but being a woman, he let his guard down.
As far as the 21 foot rule, it only works if you give them a stationary target to charge with nothing in-between you and them and time to let them decide what they are going to do. As my Sgt. would often tell me, you've got a brain, use it.
Thank you for being so thouough in addressing " all of the above ". You have clearly shown the dangers that exist in all demensions ; from the attacker, from the " law ", from being uneducated, and from not being prepared experience and by practicing tactics and awareness ...
The best of a bad situation ... better to learn and train and be prepared as much as possible and realize ignorance not only is no excuse but it can get you killed or snarled in the legal system. God help us to avoid the situation if at all possible !
Fifty years out of the corps and I practice Situational Awareness everyday everywhere. Some used to call me paranoid until we entered the 911 attacks period. Twenty years ago I was with my then 12 yr old son in a mall in Jersey. We were on the second floor when we heard a huge commotion on the first level. It was a flash mob fight involving the usual perp types we see today. I had my son drop down below eyesight, I quickly assessed the situation knowing all the entry and exit points specific to our location and signaled to him to run after me. We sprinted about 250 feet to an upstairs exit close to our car and left the area within a very short period of time. Bottom line was I always practice sit awareness you never know when things will go sideways. Be safe out there folks…
Very well spoken , not many people know what the reactionary gap is , let alone what their reactionary time is . Thank you sir .
IMHO the rule is flawed because it thinks of it as one reaction and one action. More realistically it is three actions, draw, aim, and fire. And draw is the huge part of it. Once drewn (lowered) the time to raise the gun is a fraction of a second and once aimed the time to fire is in tenths of a second. So sure, unholstering your weapon at twenty one feet or longer from an edged weapon holder is prudent. But if they are still twenty one feet away after you've drawn you have a huge reaction gap advantage on them.
I absolutely love your channel. I truly appreciate the content that you share, the time that you take to prepare it, but more importantly, and I believe this to be true for many, you explain it in a matter that you do not talk down to anyone, you keep it simple and clear and direct. I do not allow many notifications on RUclips, but your channel is one of them and I share it with many others. Thank you again! God Bless!
Thank you for your very kind words harley! I truly appreciate it, and I make videos because of people like you
This is such a convoluted area of the whole gun issue. I was an LEO for 19 years, and had several incidents where I was attacked by an unarmed party and therefore a victim of battery on an LEO due to the close quarters one frequently finds themselves in while in a residence. I was just fortunate in that none of the handful of attackers were armed. So frequently, the biggest gap you have is a fraction of 21 feet...I'll call it a rule of thumb. At those ranges, you Don't stand that much of a chance against an armed attacker. Again...i was just fortunate. You raise an excellent point that I think a large number of CCW practitioners are unfortunately unaware. I was involved in an incident wherein an attacker was shot four times, once with a cardiac injury, and still had to be taken down physically with brute force. He expired several minutes later after he had continued to fight after takedown. People should EXPECT that their aggressor IS NOT GOING DOWN even with a double tap to the center of mass. The phrase that was used when I was training as a rookie was "we shoot to stop...not to kill," and sometimes it takes a lot more to take an individual down than one would ever imagine. (Do not interpret that as a suggestion that one blindly empty your weapon when it is deployed. Again...it's the totality of circumstances that matters.)
I always enjoy your videos. You are a real resource.
The “21 foot rule” as you described was derived from a test done by trained officers. It should be added that those officers carried revolvers carried in holsters that featured almost zero retention features in 1980. They were designed to be fast draw type holsters. Now days officers carry flash lights and often red dot sights making their pistol much slower into action, and carry them inside triple retention holsters. 1.5 second draw in modern times would be very well faster than average. In my personal testing I have timed runners to cover 40 feet from a dead stop in the time it takes the students to draw and fire their first shot.
I agree drop the 21 foot rule and use reactionary measures and skill sets to define when it’s time to deploy your weapon. I like your videos because they make sense. Thank you.
I was trained on this without the name or calling it a rule. I agree with your assesment, mostly from hunting experience. Thank you for an excellent pragmatuc and well illustrated logical breakdown.