Man When I was going through something extremely traumatic in my life years ago I binge watched all the videos on your channel and it brought me so much enjoyment when nothing else could. Then yall went on hiatus. I hope you'll never stop making youtube videos. Even If it is just podcast they are so funny to me. Thank you for the love and dedication for all the years.❤
I want to say this…Of all the RUclipsrs that are game collectors, game hunters, retro game oriente, etc…. you guys have remained the same. Same personalities same goals, same mindsets, same types of videos…..and I really appreciate that. So many of these RUclipsrs have changed and money has become the main reason or focal point of their content. You guys remind me of myself…a collector that just wants to hunt and collect games. Yea money and value are great, but that’s just a side effect of a hobby that I really enjoy and chose to pickup over 15 years ago.
it was artificially hyped and stimulated, the damn auction house/grading company did a insider group buy in the $100,000 mario game or whatever the crap. Itd be like jay saying hes got a game worth $250,000 and to prove it billy bought it for $250,000 and they made a huge promotional spiel and dramatic articles written by companies...basically what wata did in the beginning.
I agree 100% with billy. To me all grading does is take 1 game or toy or comic etc off the market. Yes you can still buy them but your basically paying for a slab. The whole point of collecting toys, games, comics, movies etc etc is your buying the item and its an item that can still be used. When you grade them they basically just become expensive paperweights and all you can see is the box they came in. I mean people grade the mario game and all you can actually see is the box. You may as well grade an empty box and say its complete at that point. Least with my open copy of mario I can open the box, look at the manual, look at the game, PLAY the game. Even toys you could argue "well if you buy it un opened in its original box isn't that the same" yes and no. Yes as in its sealed so you can't take the figure and pose it etc but NO because at least I always CAN open the box if I wish and do whatever I want with the figure. Or if someone wishes to buy it from me and open it they can do that too. But a sealed graded one stays in its seal. So unless your ones of those rare few people who just want a slab of whatever it is you bought and never want to open it ever, its just a useless brick in my opinion. A personal example of mine was Tales of Berseria collectors edition. I loved opening that up and exploring the booklet that detailed the art and the world, the little medals of all the characters, the chibi figures of Velvet and Laphicet. It was all very cool and for me to find it in good condition way after release was awesome. Yet I know a few friends of mine who were legit angry I opened the box to look at the stuff. Like I just never will understand that mindset. After all I don't care about its value, I don't wish to sell them for profit. I just wanted to own something from a cherished game of mine. Same with my figma figures, I own the Berserk ones and in box they are worth double the price I paid but I opened them because I want them out on display. I didn't pay £70 just to have a box with the thing hidden inside it.
you can say that about comics / records , sports cards / same shit dif day , look back at this comment in 20 years when graded retro game prices have 20 - 30 x lol
Billy is right. Whether it’s 5 years from now or 5,000,000 years from now, every material from this earth breaks down at some point. Some last longer than others but they all end up expiring. Whether you use it or not, will affect the time to expiration but the end result no matter what, is expiration.
Little bit off topic, but I know it’s getting harder to out to flea markets to find stuff, but some of my fave episodes is when you go to the stores: Classic Game Junkie, A&E games, Geeks and Freaks, Game Room Trading Post ( I know that ain’t there anymore) and rummaging through the back rooms/store rooms. You always knew you’d walk away with some finds. Would love to see me more of those in future episodes 👍.
The rot you're talking about with optical discs is that the reflective layer is breaking down. It's no surprise that early discs have issues as the manufacturing process was new, not to mention that the silk screen layer on top also acts to protect that. If it's not very robust, any damage to it can result in damage to the reflective layer as well... think the CD cases we left in our hot cars. I have CD's where the plastic got stuck to the label, and when the disc was removed it took the label and the reflective layer with it. However, the data is still there, it's just that the medium that reflects the laser back to be read is breaking down. I feel it's not exactly accurate to say the disc has reached the end of its life as the data is still there and could be read if the reflective layer were re-applied, or if it could be repaired. The actual Polycarbonate the disc is made from isn't biodegradable and will take over 1 million years to actually break down. It's actually more likely for the EPROM on a cartridge based game to become corrupted due to bit flips, but it's still incredibly rare, and if the game is stored in a reasonable way, the PCB itself will last a very long time. Long enough it's not something to be concerned about, and I think that's what Jay is trying to say. As for magnetic media, it is the most vulnerable to degradation over time. If you have media on floppy disks, hard disk drives or tapes... BACK THEM UP. You can't expect that data to even last 50 years. But yes, if you want to get technical... entropy comes for everything eventually.
Grading sealed games is fine. Grading CIB’s and loose games is fucking stupid. The prices people ask for graded stuff is also stupid. Wata getting sued for all the scammy market manipulation they did to help sky rocket prices. A lot of that stuff has crashed and outside investors have lost millions.
I get grading a sealed game but I would never do it, it's just not for me. I love to display my boxes and I dont want some ugly case and unsightly grading score mucking up my game room. It's pointless to me.
Actually the battery on certain cartridges to save data could corrode in the box and damage the board. So yes you could buy a brand new cartridge and it may not function.
I think the numerical value should reflect the volume (spacial area) of the gas, and the alphabet value should reflect the sound and stench of the gas. So a huge loud stinker earns you that coveted "9.8 A++" $$$
Climate is everything. Low humidity + stable room temperature and I think nobody needs to worry about their working discs rotting on them within their lifetime.
@@warehousedave7937I look after my stuff and i have seen disk rot. It can happen in different ways, the printed side can go bad also the glue that holds both parts together can degrade. I have also seen mint games just stop playing.
@@warehousedave7937I've got a Sega CD game of spiderman with Disc rot. Disc rot really isn't a big deal with relativly modern discs but it is an issue for discs from before the mid 90's. If I recall correctly due to lacking a protective layer and some difference in manufacturing technique.
something tells me that the people involved in the grading service are the same people posting those auctions on ebay.. these insanely overpriced auctions that make the prices go up. The people who run the grading service are themselves big game collectors, and/or are in business with some. Ive been saying this for years. This kind of stuff happened in other hobbies, like art, sports memorabilia etc. We're finding stuff about these game grading services now but theres been talk about some of them being shady for years now.
I believe the grading game situation is complicated. In principal it comes down to condition scarcity and preservation. The problem is you have possible market manipulation and it is a newer market. It is a very volatile market and people should be skeptical on what to expect. Sadly anything that people find joy in, can and will be taken advantage of for profit.
@@TheGameChasers ok so grade a copy of zelda on nes and the first things that will start failing is the cap on the board and save battery. both leak causing the paint on the shell to bubble and the board to corrode making it a paperweight. I had a brand new wii console and the included AA batteries has leaked all over the thing inside ruining the box and inner box. if that was graded it would have only got worse. Billy is correct. Ive seen disc rot and games like famicom disk system ones or amiga the floppies fail also as you said
I've worked in data transfer. Data can corrupt, data can delete without using it, even in a controlled environment. As mentioned Atari floppy disks (magnetic data) will corrupt easily, not all but it is a 50/50 chance. Even ROM data can corrupt and stop working. I have years of experience with it. But looking after it in a controlled environment will help preserve it.
Are these cases uv light protected because ive seen 9.5 graded comics sitting in a display cabinet with a huge light potentially fading the cover. Which would drop its grade 🤔
I’m stoned. But I wanted to say I’ve been a big fan for years. I’ve seen all the videos man. The number one channel that I hope to see when I open the app that there’s a new video. Love you guys. Keep em coming!!!
If Jay is looking for a case study for integrated circuits that rot and just stop working, look no further than the chips in the original version of the Commodore 64!
To throw a wrench in Jay's argument, H model Ps2 controllers can and will break without use. I had this issue and so have many others. The circuit membrane inside degrades and just stops working more often when the controller doesn't get used than if it is used. Let's also not forget about capacitors that eventually leak and need replacing on any piece of electronic equipment.
My Sony ps2 controllers' joysticks sweat too. They get wet over time in this box I'm storing them in but my xbox controllers don't and 3rd party controllers don't, just first party sony ps2 controllers.
Disc rot is already happening. I hear about it more so with GameCube and WiiU discs. Put them up to a light and see if there are pinholes in the data layers already. Some can be ‘recovered’ using a black sharpie on the print side to color in the hole. It’s the current fix for now.
Almost all Nintendo and sega carts have capacitors in the cart. They have electrolytic fluid in them that will evaporate and leak over time regardless of use. If the capacitor doesn’t leak and ruin the traces it might be as simple as replacing the capacitor 100 years from now but eventually carts will stop working without any form of maintenance. I also do believe that the earths magnetism will corrupt the chips in the carts at some point but that would be left to someone smarter than me to determine. For example n64 carts have an extra plate of shielding around the boards.
I totally agree with Melvor. I don't really care as much about grading nowadays but man... like he said... Why does a 9 make it worth 500 times? I could see double it but that much is crazy!
I have writable cds that were burned around 2000 that started failing years ago. I'm sure quality discs that game companies use will last much longer though, but disc rot is still a concern.
if a phone has a stretch value go down and that is logic. but ones a games plastic that is made to be broken has a stretch it shoudnt go down in value, it is plastic to be removed...
This is why I sold off most of my old collection, kept the things I've had since childhood, but kept all my GameCube & Wii games I collected. I've been buying up Xbox 360 physical games recently as there's so many great games on that system I never played and don't need a damn internet connection for to play from the jump. My goal currently is to just have good physical media in 2024 as more and more things go completely online. The 360 is THE console to get all of while you can before it jumps up in price. Hell, at my local Disc Replay Lollipop Chainsaw is already up to $30. Glad I bought that years ago for 2 bucks. Trying to collect for PS2 and before is nightmare now.
I have been saying for years that graded games are a scam they probably take the games out and sell them and send you back a empty box in a plastic case that you won't open so you will never know if the game is actually in the case
Buying a game, then grading it so no one can ever play it again is just like buying an expensive art piece and putting it in storage never looking at it. Which is exactly what rich people do. When I learned my silly analogy I'd been making for years was exactly what wealthy art collectors do already, and those are the same types of people grading games, I just threw up my hands and said 'fuck it.' The world is destroying itself, and I am too tired to keep fighting against it.
The whole reason why prices go "astronomical" is because of the grade and rarity. If you have a graded game and it's a like a 5 or 6, that's not really going to go that much over market value. But if you have a game that is 9.8 and it's a 1st edition with only 1 or 2 graded at that grade, then that's when rich people go into bidding wars. Obviously these people are very wealthy and/or intend to flip it at a later time. Also there are other reasons like avoiding taxes. It's very similar to the art market but that's even at a higher level than this. As for the whole argument of "you can just sell it without grading," but actually people don't trust online photos and descriptions. People want solid evidence of the condition and are willing to pay an extra money for that, especially when they are paying over $1000s for a rare game. Also, the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 can be huge in financial terms. So, we need a professional service to judge this. By the way, I am not rich myself, I am just a normal collector with an open mind, but if I was rich, I would probably be interested in the market because it looks fun and money can be made.
Oxidation will eventually break things down it doesn’t have to necessarily be exposed to the elements like wind and water, unless u keep all your games in vacuum sealed containers they will breakdown n be for decor or landfill bound it’s sad but true nothing lasts forever only diamonds
My personal opinion about grading, it makes sense to grade things like trading cards and coins because, you just look at them anyway and you can see all the art/info. Grading things like comic books, toys, and video games etc. are a different story, because you can’t use them for what they were intended for, the art or data of the items are locked away forever, never to be used or appreciated as intended again.
A game you can't play is worthless in my opinion. Maybe good for preservation of physical media but the prices don't justify it. Also the fact that you can just resubmit for the possibility of a better score takes away all the trust I could possibly have in these services.
I just want to say that I agree with jay ! It’s all how you take care of your collection and keep them in a control environment. I was taught at a young age take care of your shit and it will last a lifetime. Yes disc rot is a real thing but 90% of disc rot is from mistreatment and exposed to long periods of uv rays (sunlight)
Never, in a million years would I have guessed where this conversation was going hahaha. I think Jay's words sum it up pretty well "I just refuse to believe it". I'm dead 😂
To Billy and Jay's argument about disc rot and media degradation: Billy is correct, all the games/movies/CD's we own will at some point cease to function like they're supposed to-that's just the basic law of entropy at work. Whether that happens within the next few hours or after decades is up to individual circumstances, but it is inevitable. Various factors in and out of our control such as temperature, humidity, storage conditions, pressure, manufacturing processes, and much more can affect these things. To Jay's credit too, the best we can do is store them as optimally as possible while keeping conditions like these in mind so that we can mitigate degradation during our respective lifetimes. If done properly, they can be preserved much longer.
Something to also keep in mind about that library case study is that libraries tend to store their media pretty well. They're typically in temperature-controlled, dry environments and despite that some discs still showed signs of rot. If that case study has been done in an abandoned or dilapidated household, I'm sure that number would be significantly higher.
getting a game graded basically verifies the quality of the item - value is a byproduct of grading, demand, and the reselling market. Personally, if I got a game graded, it would be for this reason, to validify the quality and completeness. I understand that a lot of people do it for reselling, but not everyone does it for this reason.
I'm more on Billy's thoughts on grading. Someone's not grading all their collection as it costs too much and you can visibly see the condition a cartridge or box is in. They're only doing it with the intent to increase it's perceived value before selling it on to someone who might arbitrarily care about cosmetic value. It's kinda like turning each uncommon and rare game into a unique NFT by a 3rd party assigning a score to it. Of course I think collecting things can be a hobby if you enjoy the things, look at them, use them, learn about them etc. Reselling is separated in my mind into a side hustle rather than a hobby.
As someone that repairs arcade pcb’s, components on pcb’s eventually fail, even inactive video game pcb’s. I have even had new old stock components not work.
Jay hit the nail on the head with graded items inflating the market. It also shrinks the market for us that don’t care about grading but are wanting nicer games or toys. It’s a scheme and It’s just a real bummer.
For me the piece that's missing here is if I'm buying a sealed game online, I don't inherently trust the buyer. If they say a sealed game is 7.5/10, I assume they're selling me a 5/10 copy. I suspect many of you are more trusting than me, but I'll pay a little more to have someone verify the product is what I expect it to be.
Right, but at least then it's just pure fraud and not two people debating what constitutes a 5 or 7. It's the closest you'll get to piece of mind in a world of scammers.@@turokforever007
As some one who buys or used to buy a lot of used game to resell, there are games on the market right now that have disc rot this is not a bad copy of the game, but it may also be due to the environment that it was stored in. I do know that there are some games that have disc rot that still work, but I wouldn't have it in my collection
"Couldn't care less" and "could care less" are both used to mean someone doesn't care at all, but English teachers and grammarians will say that only "couldn't care less" is correct, so that is what you should use in formal or academic writing.
My problem with grading is the company is never up front with their grading process. Grading is new to video games, but in comics and cards I know people who will get a comic back graded at a 9.6 crack it open and send it back until they get a 9.8 because that difference in grade will increase the value by a few hundred even a few thousand dollars. But it goes to show you there are flaws in that company's grading system if I can send it back and potentially get a better grade for it. Just makes it all feel scammy
That 1.5 million dollar heritage auction was the beginning of the end for graded games. I had been collecting graded items (toys) from the early days of AFA. I also had some sealed vintage systems graded by VGA. I didn’t grade them for reselling, because I’m a hoarder. 😂At the time, they weren’t selling the acrylic cases commonly and I loved the way they looked for display purposes. WATA and Heritage Auctions had some shenanigans going on to create the next scam like they had previously done with graded coins.
I agree with Billy completely. I am in the yoyo "collecting" community and the prices are determined by the seller for basically ANY amount they think its worth. There isn't a rating system obviously. People create false rarity by bullshit descriptions. Just because THEY feel it's worth a certain amount doesn't make it so.....but somebody out there will buy it just because.
I’ll never understand grading cib games or even loose carts unless its something like a NWC. I personally like graded games, especially if it’s sealed and my favorite titles. It helps preserve it and also gives it that layer of authenticity, same reason people grade comics and anything else.
It's a scam. It's the commodification of used video games. Having some people say "yep this box is brand new perfect" shouldn't add 500%, 1000%, 10000% of an increase in "value". It's pure money grabbing.
Entropy everything degraded even the graded case will eventually degraded with some materials this might take hundreds of years but everything degrades. Also with games, cd, dvds, vinyls the life of the thing can also be determined by the factory that made them, so factories have been found to cut some corners and used inferior materials and they are degrading faster than normal and alot of physical media is being lost due to this. Though it is also likely that a sealed game could be resealed and inside that box if a madden game or even a bootleg but how would you know?
I think the material it’s made with is a determining factor, LEGOs made now is out of a biodegradable material which won’t last as long as old LEGOs made from ABS plastic’s.
I’m with Jay on this one tbh, especially a cartridge game of it’s just sitting there doing nothing why would it break down! Especially if it’s in a climate controlled space there’s no reason for it to “decay” it’s not organic matter. I collect VHS tapes and I’ve got 40 year old tapes that still work fine. But the magnetic components of the tapes can break down after use but not from sitting there not doing anything.
A) Only sealed games should ever be graded 2) Maybe I missed it but can we talk about Melvor's hobbit feet D) I really enjoyed Shady Jay's alter ego Argumentative Jay's appearance in this video
With or without grading, game prices have gotten out of hand. Especially for certain systems. Collecting in the 2000s and most of the 2010s was so much easier and better priced outside of very rare stuff. Grading just makes it worse that where it was already going.
I can understand a "to this day" factory sealed game being worth possibly 10X the retail price depending on the game but simply grading it means very little to me
Here's what I believe to be true... Optical media, such as CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, should last 100+ years. All depending on how it's treated and kept. People often think their CDs have "disc rot", due to pinholes showing through the aluminum substrate layer. But this is often due to mishandling and mistreatment. Such ad keeping loose discs in a hot car. My ex (not why we broke up), left some of my music CDs in the car in 150f heat.. It caused the aluminum to flake off. While the data was technically intact, as it has another layer of plastic protecting it, the aluminum missing keeps the laser from bouncing off of the data pits, so you get skipping in music CDs, and CRC errors on data. Now, floppy discs, 3.5", 5¼", etc., is magnetic media. The lifespan on that media is nowhere near as archival as optical disc media. In fact, if it ever comes in contact with a magnet, even through the box, such as getting near a speaker, the entire disc can become unreadable in seconds. The same is true of cassette tapes. Blu-Ray and 4KUHD discs have a scratch resistant coating on the bottom. This is why most used Blu-Ray discs as often in great condition. If you compare a BR disc to a DVD, you'll notice that the reading side is very smooth on the BR. The paint on some discs have been known to erode. This is actually pretty common with GameCube discs, likely a defect at one of the pressing plants. Google search "GC cracked paint MGS TWIN SNAKES". This is one if the most commonly affected games, but I've seen many others. Out of my 100+ GC games, only my MGS game (disc 2) is showing some cracked paint. This of course sucks. It's a game that has stayed in the case, in a tempt controlled bedroom, since day one... The good news is that is has zero effect on the aluminum layer or the data layer. It played fine even if all of the paint falls off.
From what I've gathered from this conversation is play all your media to test functionality and take care of it properly. Also, grading sealed media makes no sense.
For me games are for playing. I love having the physical disk or carts but with grading or reseller people are spending £100s to £1000s+ for a 20/40 year old game and like you guys said in the video people are paying for them. So they treat video games as an investment not a piece of entertainment.
The grading system is in place for many reasons, and one of them is to further designate rariety amongst rariety. Now granted, that should only matter with context. Grades should absolutely come with a distribution graph. Yeah you may have an 8.3 but there may also be only 20 copies graded ever and thus grading has way less meaning
guys in one year, the price on the same graded game dropped about 90%!!! the ceo of Heritage auction is an investors in Wata!!!! this is a scam, this guy do the same in the money market in the 80s!!!
Someone probably already said this, but Karl Jobst did a documentary on the grading scam to drive up the market prices. If I’m not mistaken, the dude who was largely responsible appeared on a game chasers episode once, at a convention or something. This was years before
As for the CD rot comment of them starting to die from the 80s, the technology itself has gotten better over the years. Some of the very early ones are more susceptible to disc rot but now, the estimated life span for most discs are 100+ years. The majority of CDs from the 80s are perfectly fine. Burned discs however use much cheaper material and those will definitely rot over time just due to the material breaking down.
Jay's scientific background is in sweatpants technology
Billy's just mad he got sweatpantsed by Jay
FACTS
Jay is like the American Bruce Lee such a Legend
Lmaooooo😂
sweatpants oxidation he has seen the case studies guys.
That moment you notice Billy is slowly eating a Happy Meal burger and Melvoir is taking swigs from a trial-sized box of Nerds.
believes in ghost farts, refuses to believe in electronic decay.
That about sums it up
Melvor casually sipping on the Nerds box cracked me up
Man When I was going through something extremely traumatic in my life years ago I binge watched all the videos on your channel and it brought me so much enjoyment when nothing else could. Then yall went on hiatus. I hope you'll never stop making youtube videos. Even If it is just podcast they are so funny to me. Thank you for the love and dedication for all the years.❤
Glad we can help, thank you for watching!
Same here too man!! I was going through a depression, and for some reason the game Chasers saved me from occupying my time.
I want to say this…Of all the RUclipsrs that are game collectors, game hunters, retro game oriente, etc…. you guys have remained the same. Same personalities same goals, same mindsets, same types of videos…..and I really appreciate that.
So many of these RUclipsrs have changed and money has become the main reason or focal point of their content.
You guys remind me of myself…a collector that just wants to hunt and collect games. Yea money and value are great, but that’s just a side effect of a hobby that I really enjoy and chose to pickup over 15 years ago.
On this episode: Jay denies the existence of entropy.
It gets even more bizarre with VHS grading and all the different print run variants. It's taken the fun out of the hobby, IMO.
I hear you man I collect horror tapes it’s so obnoxious
it was artificially hyped and stimulated, the damn auction house/grading company did a insider group buy in the $100,000 mario game or whatever the crap.
Itd be like jay saying hes got a game worth $250,000 and to prove it billy bought it for $250,000 and they made a huge promotional spiel and dramatic articles written by companies...basically what wata did in the beginning.
Agreed.
I agree 100% with billy. To me all grading does is take 1 game or toy or comic etc off the market. Yes you can still buy them but your basically paying for a slab. The whole point of collecting toys, games, comics, movies etc etc is your buying the item and its an item that can still be used. When you grade them they basically just become expensive paperweights and all you can see is the box they came in. I mean people grade the mario game and all you can actually see is the box. You may as well grade an empty box and say its complete at that point.
Least with my open copy of mario I can open the box, look at the manual, look at the game, PLAY the game. Even toys you could argue "well if you buy it un opened in its original box isn't that the same" yes and no. Yes as in its sealed so you can't take the figure and pose it etc but NO because at least I always CAN open the box if I wish and do whatever I want with the figure. Or if someone wishes to buy it from me and open it they can do that too. But a sealed graded one stays in its seal. So unless your ones of those rare few people who just want a slab of whatever it is you bought and never want to open it ever, its just a useless brick in my opinion.
A personal example of mine was Tales of Berseria collectors edition. I loved opening that up and exploring the booklet that detailed the art and the world, the little medals of all the characters, the chibi figures of Velvet and Laphicet. It was all very cool and for me to find it in good condition way after release was awesome. Yet I know a few friends of mine who were legit angry I opened the box to look at the stuff. Like I just never will understand that mindset. After all I don't care about its value, I don't wish to sell them for profit. I just wanted to own something from a cherished game of mine. Same with my figma figures, I own the Berserk ones and in box they are worth double the price I paid but I opened them because I want them out on display. I didn't pay £70 just to have a box with the thing hidden inside it.
you can say that about comics / records , sports cards / same shit dif day , look back at this comment in 20 years when graded retro game prices have 20 - 30 x lol
When you’re getting older you don’t want to think about things breaking down for no reason due to age 😂
Billy is right. Whether it’s 5 years from now or 5,000,000 years from now, every material from this earth breaks down at some point. Some last longer than others but they all end up expiring. Whether you use it or not, will affect the time to expiration but the end result no matter what, is expiration.
Nice... You got Hecklefish in the background
😊
Little bit off topic, but I know it’s getting harder to out to flea markets to find stuff, but some of my fave episodes is when you go to the stores: Classic Game Junkie, A&E games, Geeks and Freaks, Game Room Trading Post ( I know that ain’t there anymore) and rummaging through the back rooms/store rooms. You always knew you’d walk away with some finds.
Would love to see me more of those in future episodes 👍.
The rot you're talking about with optical discs is that the reflective layer is breaking down. It's no surprise that early discs have issues as the manufacturing process was new, not to mention that the silk screen layer on top also acts to protect that. If it's not very robust, any damage to it can result in damage to the reflective layer as well... think the CD cases we left in our hot cars. I have CD's where the plastic got stuck to the label, and when the disc was removed it took the label and the reflective layer with it. However, the data is still there, it's just that the medium that reflects the laser back to be read is breaking down. I feel it's not exactly accurate to say the disc has reached the end of its life as the data is still there and could be read if the reflective layer were re-applied, or if it could be repaired. The actual Polycarbonate the disc is made from isn't biodegradable and will take over 1 million years to actually break down.
It's actually more likely for the EPROM on a cartridge based game to become corrupted due to bit flips, but it's still incredibly rare, and if the game is stored in a reasonable way, the PCB itself will last a very long time. Long enough it's not something to be concerned about, and I think that's what Jay is trying to say. As for magnetic media, it is the most vulnerable to degradation over time. If you have media on floppy disks, hard disk drives or tapes... BACK THEM UP. You can't expect that data to even last 50 years.
But yes, if you want to get technical... entropy comes for everything eventually.
Grading sealed games is fine. Grading CIB’s and loose games is fucking stupid. The prices people ask for graded stuff is also stupid. Wata getting sued for all the scammy market manipulation they did to help sky rocket prices. A lot of that stuff has crashed and outside investors have lost millions.
I get grading a sealed game but I would never do it, it's just not for me. I love to display my boxes and I dont want some ugly case and unsightly grading score mucking up my game room. It's pointless to me.
Actually the battery on certain cartridges to save data could corrode in the box and damage the board. So yes you could buy a brand new cartridge and it may not function.
Billy eating a cheeseburger, wearing that based shirt, and speaking absolute facts, we don't deserve Billy 😆🙌
Farts should be graded.
I think the numerical value should reflect the volume (spacial area) of the gas, and the alphabet value should reflect the sound and stench of the gas.
So a huge loud stinker earns you that coveted "9.8 A++" $$$
If four people farted for a minute inside a sealed tiny room & lit a match , would the room explode?
I agree
Don’t forget queefs!
theses guys would be RICH
😂😂
That fact that Shady Jay doesn’t believe in Disc/Data Rot is absolutely hilarious. Especially when he’s presented with numerous facts & figures.
Climate is everything. Low humidity + stable room temperature and I think nobody needs to worry about their working discs rotting on them within their lifetime.
@@warehousedave7937I look after my stuff and i have seen disk rot. It can happen in different ways, the printed side can go bad also the glue that holds both parts together can degrade. I have also seen mint games just stop playing.
@@warehousedave7937I've got a Sega CD game of spiderman with Disc rot. Disc rot really isn't a big deal with relativly modern discs but it is an issue for discs from before the mid 90's. If I recall correctly due to lacking a protective layer and some difference in manufacturing technique.
@@warehousedave7937 Rot still happens. Just look at the Laserdisc & early DVD aftermarket to find numerous examples from decades of info.
@@relo999 Disc Rot still happens in newer disc. I just found out about a batch of DVD from Warner Bros from 2006-2009 is prone to disc rot.
something tells me that the people involved in the grading service are the same people posting those auctions on ebay.. these insanely overpriced auctions that make the prices go up. The people who run the grading service are themselves big game collectors, and/or are in business with some. Ive been saying this for years. This kind of stuff happened in other hobbies, like art, sports memorabilia etc. We're finding stuff about these game grading services now but theres been talk about some of them being shady for years now.
I believe the grading game situation is complicated. In principal it comes down to condition scarcity and preservation. The problem is you have possible market manipulation and it is a newer market. It is a very volatile market and people should be skeptical on what to expect. Sadly anything that people find joy in, can and will be taken advantage of for profit.
You could be in the factory and a 100% comes off the production line. But they will not class it as a 100% as they cannot make from it.
I love it when jay goes in the opposite direction and usually doubles down on that opinion 😂
for no apparent reason, just to be a contrarian chode😅
My brain is rotting after that argument.
Billy is wrong, Jay is right and Melvor the Great
@@RetroHabit82 Yes Im totally wrong. Carts and discs will work forever. Disc rot is just a fake idea made up by big science.
@@TheGameChasers but if you can't ever open it does it really rot xD schrodinger's games 2037
@@TheGameChasers ok so grade a copy of zelda on nes and the first things that will start failing is the cap on the board and save battery. both leak causing the paint on the shell to bubble and the board to corrode making it a paperweight. I had a brand new wii console and the included AA batteries has leaked all over the thing inside ruining the box and inner box. if that was graded it would have only got worse. Billy is correct. Ive seen disc rot and games like famicom disk system ones or amiga the floppies fail also as you said
@furydeath what's the point of a videogame when you're worried about it aging so much that you seal it a plastic box to never be played.
I've worked in data transfer. Data can corrupt, data can delete without using it, even in a controlled environment. As mentioned Atari floppy disks (magnetic data) will corrupt easily, not all but it is a 50/50 chance. Even ROM data can corrupt and stop working.
I have years of experience with it.
But looking after it in a controlled environment will help preserve it.
did any1 ask u for your opinion lol
@@regidon6816 learn to spell. Your comment is pointless.
Did anyone ask for your comment. Idiot 🙄
Are these cases uv light protected because ive seen 9.5 graded comics sitting in a display cabinet with a huge light potentially fading the cover. Which would drop its grade 🤔
Capacitors are the ticking time bombs of old electronics
dumbass jay doesn't remember capacitors live in cartridges.
I’m stoned. But I wanted to say I’ve been a big fan for years. I’ve seen all the videos man. The number one channel that I hope to see when I open the app that there’s a new video. Love you guys. Keep em coming!!!
I forgot what the video was originally about once the disc rot conversation started haha.
Grading is a racket
I have one of the first Music CD ever, playing since 85. Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms. Still plays as new.
I just rewatched the whole gamechasers series with my son. Its so bloody good man 👍👍👍
If Jay is looking for a case study for integrated circuits that rot and just stop working, look no further than the chips in the original version of the Commodore 64!
To throw a wrench in Jay's argument, H model Ps2 controllers can and will break without use.
I had this issue and so have many others. The circuit membrane inside degrades and just stops working more often when the controller doesn't get used than if it is used.
Let's also not forget about capacitors that eventually leak and need replacing on any piece of electronic equipment.
My Sony ps2 controllers' joysticks sweat too. They get wet over time in this box I'm storing them in but my xbox controllers don't and 3rd party controllers don't, just first party sony ps2 controllers.
The burger appearing in Billy’s hand out of nowhere 💀🤣 🍔
Disc rot is already happening. I hear about it more so with GameCube and WiiU discs. Put them up to a light and see if there are pinholes in the data layers already. Some can be ‘recovered’ using a black sharpie on the print side to color in the hole. It’s the current fix for now.
There is, or was not sure if still on, a documentary on Netflix about this sorta thing. It's called "Boom, Bust, Boom".
Almost all Nintendo and sega carts have capacitors in the cart. They have electrolytic fluid in them that will evaporate and leak over time regardless of use. If the capacitor doesn’t leak and ruin the traces it might be as simple as replacing the capacitor 100 years from now but eventually carts will stop working without any form of maintenance. I also do believe that the earths magnetism will corrupt the chips in the carts at some point but that would be left to someone smarter than me to determine. For example n64 carts have an extra plate of shielding around the boards.
I totally agree with Melvor. I don't really care as much about grading nowadays but man... like he said... Why does a 9 make it worth 500 times? I could see double it but that much is crazy!
I have writable cds that were burned around 2000 that started failing years ago. I'm sure quality discs that game companies use will last much longer though, but disc rot is still a concern.
I can understand the rare games being stupid expensive graded but the common and uncommon shouldn't really go for thousands or tens of thousands.
if a phone has a stretch value go down and that is logic.
but ones a games plastic that is made to be broken has a stretch it shoudnt go down in value, it is plastic to be removed...
This is why I sold off most of my old collection, kept the things I've had since childhood, but kept all my GameCube & Wii games I collected. I've been buying up Xbox 360 physical games recently as there's so many great games on that system I never played and don't need a damn internet connection for to play from the jump. My goal currently is to just have good physical media in 2024 as more and more things go completely online. The 360 is THE console to get all of while you can before it jumps up in price. Hell, at my local Disc Replay Lollipop Chainsaw is already up to $30. Glad I bought that years ago for 2 bucks. Trying to collect for PS2 and before is nightmare now.
I have been saying for years that graded games are a scam they probably take the games out and sell them and send you back a empty box in a plastic case that you won't open so you will never know if the game is actually in the case
Buying a game, then grading it so no one can ever play it again is just like buying an expensive art piece and putting it in storage never looking at it. Which is exactly what rich people do. When I learned my silly analogy I'd been making for years was exactly what wealthy art collectors do already, and those are the same types of people grading games, I just threw up my hands and said 'fuck it.'
The world is destroying itself, and I am too tired to keep fighting against it.
The whole reason why prices go "astronomical" is because of the grade and rarity. If you have a graded game and it's a like a 5 or 6, that's not really going to go that much over market value. But if you have a game that is 9.8 and it's a 1st edition with only 1 or 2 graded at that grade, then that's when rich people go into bidding wars. Obviously these people are very wealthy and/or intend to flip it at a later time. Also there are other reasons like avoiding taxes. It's very similar to the art market but that's even at a higher level than this. As for the whole argument of "you can just sell it without grading," but actually people don't trust online photos and descriptions. People want solid evidence of the condition and are willing to pay an extra money for that, especially when they are paying over $1000s for a rare game. Also, the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 can be huge in financial terms. So, we need a professional service to judge this. By the way, I am not rich myself, I am just a normal collector with an open mind, but if I was rich, I would probably be interested in the market because it looks fun and money can be made.
Oxidation will eventually break things down it doesn’t have to necessarily be exposed to the elements like wind and water, unless u keep all your games in vacuum sealed containers they will breakdown n be for decor or landfill bound it’s sad but true nothing lasts forever only diamonds
My personal opinion about grading, it makes sense to grade things like trading cards and coins because, you just look at them anyway and you can see all the art/info.
Grading things like comic books, toys, and video games etc. are a different story, because you can’t use them for what they were intended for, the art or data of the items are locked away forever, never to be used or appreciated as intended again.
A game you can't play is worthless in my opinion. Maybe good for preservation of physical media but the prices don't justify it. Also the fact that you can just resubmit for the possibility of a better score takes away all the trust I could possibly have in these services.
I just want to say that I agree with jay ! It’s all how you take care of your collection and keep them in a control environment. I was taught at a young age take care of your shit and it will last a lifetime. Yes disc rot is a real thing but 90% of disc rot is from mistreatment and exposed to long periods of uv rays (sunlight)
Rot also happens form oxidation. All things break down. Keeping it safe only delays it, it doesn't stop it.
Never, in a million years would I have guessed where this conversation was going hahaha.
I think Jay's words sum it up pretty well "I just refuse to believe it". I'm dead 😂
It comes from comic books. And it needs to be resisted.
To Billy and Jay's argument about disc rot and media degradation: Billy is correct, all the games/movies/CD's we own will at some point cease to function like they're supposed to-that's just the basic law of entropy at work.
Whether that happens within the next few hours or after decades is up to individual circumstances, but it is inevitable. Various factors in and out of our control such as temperature, humidity, storage conditions, pressure, manufacturing processes, and much more can affect these things.
To Jay's credit too, the best we can do is store them as optimally as possible while keeping conditions like these in mind so that we can mitigate degradation during our respective lifetimes. If done properly, they can be preserved much longer.
Something to also keep in mind about that library case study is that libraries tend to store their media pretty well. They're typically in temperature-controlled, dry environments and despite that some discs still showed signs of rot. If that case study has been done in an abandoned or dilapidated household, I'm sure that number would be significantly higher.
getting a game graded basically verifies the quality of the item - value is a byproduct of grading, demand, and the reselling market. Personally, if I got a game graded, it would be for this reason, to validify the quality and completeness. I understand that a lot of people do it for reselling, but not everyone does it for this reason.
I'm more on Billy's thoughts on grading. Someone's not grading all their collection as it costs too much and you can visibly see the condition a cartridge or box is in. They're only doing it with the intent to increase it's perceived value before selling it on to someone who might arbitrarily care about cosmetic value. It's kinda like turning each uncommon and rare game into a unique NFT by a 3rd party assigning a score to it.
Of course I think collecting things can be a hobby if you enjoy the things, look at them, use them, learn about them etc. Reselling is separated in my mind into a side hustle rather than a hobby.
As someone that repairs arcade pcb’s, components on pcb’s eventually fail, even inactive video game pcb’s. I have even had new old stock components not work.
You guys need to have someone Googling things as you discuss them. Knowing the facts will just add more to the discussion. Much love, dudes.
Melvor with his Fred Flintstone feet sipping on nerds out of the box , LEGEND! 🤣
Jay hit the nail on the head with graded items inflating the market. It also shrinks the market for us that don’t care about grading but are wanting nicer games or toys. It’s a scheme and It’s just a real bummer.
Enjoyed the discussion on this. Pat did some of the best analysis on this topic early on and recently.
For me the piece that's missing here is if I'm buying a sealed game online, I don't inherently trust the buyer. If they say a sealed game is 7.5/10, I assume they're selling me a 5/10 copy. I suspect many of you are more trusting than me, but I'll pay a little more to have someone verify the product is what I expect it to be.
Many have been found to not being real sealed
Right, but at least then it's just pure fraud and not two people debating what constitutes a 5 or 7. It's the closest you'll get to piece of mind in a world of scammers.@@turokforever007
As some one who buys or used to buy a lot of used game to resell, there are games on the market right now that have disc rot
this is not a bad copy of the game, but it may also be due to the environment that it was stored in.
I do know that there are some games that have disc rot that still work, but I wouldn't have it in my collection
"Couldn't care less" and "could care less" are both used to mean someone doesn't care at all, but English teachers and grammarians will say that only "couldn't care less" is correct, so that is what you should use in formal or academic writing.
My problem with grading is the company is never up front with their grading process. Grading is new to video games, but in comics and cards I know people who will get a comic back graded at a 9.6 crack it open and send it back until they get a 9.8 because that difference in grade will increase the value by a few hundred even a few thousand dollars. But it goes to show you there are flaws in that company's grading system if I can send it back and potentially get a better grade for it. Just makes it all feel scammy
That 1.5 million dollar heritage auction was the beginning of the end for graded games. I had been collecting graded items (toys) from the early days of AFA. I also had some sealed vintage systems graded by VGA. I didn’t grade them for reselling, because I’m a hoarder. 😂At the time, they weren’t selling the acrylic cases commonly and I loved the way they looked for display purposes. WATA and Heritage Auctions had some shenanigans going on to create the next scam like they had previously done with graded coins.
Aye guys! Always a blast tuning in with y'all and hearing y'all go at it. Thank you!! Much love chodes!
I agree with Billy completely. I am in the yoyo "collecting" community and the prices are determined by the seller for basically ANY amount they think its worth. There isn't a rating system obviously. People create false rarity by bullshit descriptions. Just because THEY feel it's worth a certain amount doesn't make it so.....but somebody out there will buy it just because.
I joined High End Video Game Facebook group and made 500x and quit my job
I’ll never understand grading cib games or even loose carts unless its something like a NWC. I personally like graded games, especially if it’s sealed and my favorite titles. It helps preserve it and also gives it that layer of authenticity, same reason people grade comics and anything else.
It's a scam. It's the commodification of used video games. Having some people say "yep this box is brand new perfect" shouldn't add 500%, 1000%, 10000% of an increase in "value". It's pure money grabbing.
Entropy everything degraded even the graded case will eventually degraded with some materials this might take hundreds of years but everything degrades. Also with games, cd, dvds, vinyls the life of the thing can also be determined by the factory that made them, so factories have been found to cut some corners and used inferior materials and they are degrading faster than normal and alot of physical media is being lost due to this. Though it is also likely that a sealed game could be resealed and inside that box if a madden game or even a bootleg but how would you know?
All CD's are deteriorating over time. JAY: "But its not happening right now" 😆 When does time start for Jay?
Cant we sick the FBI or BBB on these fucks for artificially raising game prices?
I think the material it’s made with is a determining factor, LEGOs made now is out of a biodegradable material which won’t last as long as old LEGOs made from ABS plastic’s.
If the median age of disc rot is 700 whatever years but some rot earlier, the variability is inconsistent. We don’t truly know the outcome.
I love the fish with teeth behind Billy
I'll never understand game grading. They are ment to be played not staired at. Sad shit
Can we get these as a podcast?
I’m with Jay on this one tbh, especially a cartridge game of it’s just sitting there doing nothing why would it break down! Especially if it’s in a climate controlled space there’s no reason for it to “decay” it’s not organic matter. I collect VHS tapes and I’ve got 40 year old tapes that still work fine. But the magnetic components of the tapes can break down after use but not from sitting there not doing anything.
agreed people always point to VHS tapes, and i say the same thing unless they were heavily abused or watched 100s of times, they still kickin
A) Only sealed games should ever be graded
2) Maybe I missed it but can we talk about Melvor's hobbit feet
D) I really enjoyed Shady Jay's alter ego Argumentative Jay's appearance in this video
love that the Keeb picture is there, those old episodes are my favorite
With or without grading, game prices have gotten out of hand. Especially for certain systems.
Collecting in the 2000s and most of the 2010s was so much easier and better priced outside of very rare stuff.
Grading just makes it worse that where it was already going.
You guys just need to start a podcast. Even if it's not about gaming but about anything related to collecting.
They do
I can understand a "to this day" factory sealed game being worth possibly 10X the retail price depending on the game but simply grading it means very little to me
My Adhd is in hyper drive I swear all I can hear is Bill going ape shit on that burger I hear the tongue clicks and all AHHHHHHHHHHH
Here's what I believe to be true...
Optical media, such as CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, should last 100+ years. All depending on how it's treated and kept. People often think their CDs have "disc rot", due to pinholes showing through the aluminum substrate layer. But this is often due to mishandling and mistreatment. Such ad keeping loose discs in a hot car. My ex (not why we broke up), left some of my music CDs in the car in 150f heat.. It caused the aluminum to flake off. While the data was technically intact, as it has another layer of plastic protecting it, the aluminum missing keeps the laser from bouncing off of the data pits, so you get skipping in music CDs, and CRC errors on data.
Now, floppy discs, 3.5", 5¼", etc., is magnetic media. The lifespan on that media is nowhere near as archival as optical disc media. In fact, if it ever comes in contact with a magnet, even through the box, such as getting near a speaker, the entire disc can become unreadable in seconds. The same is true of cassette tapes.
Blu-Ray and 4KUHD discs have a scratch resistant coating on the bottom. This is why most used Blu-Ray discs as often in great condition. If you compare a BR disc to a DVD, you'll notice that the reading side is very smooth on the BR.
The paint on some discs have been known to erode. This is actually pretty common with GameCube discs, likely a defect at one of the pressing plants. Google search "GC cracked paint MGS TWIN SNAKES". This is one if the most commonly affected games, but I've seen many others. Out of my 100+ GC games, only my MGS game (disc 2) is showing some cracked paint. This of course sucks. It's a game that has stayed in the case, in a tempt controlled bedroom, since day one... The good news is that is has zero effect on the aluminum layer or the data layer. It played fine even if all of the paint falls off.
considering the planned opulence of tech manufacturing, i bet older cds last longer than the later ones.
Wow! I've never seen such a serious discussion from youvguys without the jokes and other shenanigans
The chewing noise as background sound is great.
I need a hour or two podcast from you all
From what I've gathered from this conversation is play all your media to test functionality and take care of it properly. Also, grading sealed media makes no sense.
For me games are for playing. I love having the physical disk or carts but with grading or reseller people are spending £100s to £1000s+ for a 20/40 year old game and like you guys said in the video people are paying for them. So they treat video games as an investment not a piece of entertainment.
The grading system is in place for many reasons, and one of them is to further designate rariety amongst rariety.
Now granted, that should only matter with context. Grades should absolutely come with a distribution graph. Yeah you may have an 8.3 but there may also be only 20 copies graded ever and thus grading has way less meaning
The stuff to be worried about most is magnetically recorded formats like floppy disks and tapes
😂 where did this conversation go?!?
guys in one year, the price on the same graded game dropped about 90%!!!
the ceo of Heritage auction is an investors in Wata!!!!
this is a scam, this guy do the same in the money market in the 80s!!!
Someone probably already said this, but Karl Jobst did a documentary on the grading scam to drive up the market prices. If I’m not mistaken, the dude who was largely responsible appeared on a game chasers episode once, at a convention or something. This was years before
As for the CD rot comment of them starting to die from the 80s, the technology itself has gotten better over the years. Some of the very early ones are more susceptible to disc rot but now, the estimated life span for most discs are 100+ years. The majority of CDs from the 80s are perfectly fine. Burned discs however use much cheaper material and those will definitely rot over time just due to the material breaking down.
Burps, barefoot and burgers. The 3 B's
Man just did not want to hear that electronics will decay eventually.