Back with another Tennis video after a little break! I played against the best player on the channel so far and I struggled against his style of play. Let me know what you think is a good strategy against a solid baseliner who hits aggressive slices and who uses the court geometry very well.
I play a guy who plays just like this who was ranked top 30 in the world for over 60s. Total nightmare. Can hit the BH slice anywhere he wants and never misses with it. I found the best thing I can do is attack his FH. His FH has more power but he will miss with it, trying to get a miss from the slice is like drawing blood from a stone. Notice the games you won in a row it was off errors from his FH!
Opening up the angles may give him an advantage, because he can use the geometry of the court well. Play through the middle at his feet instead. He may have problems getting his body out of the way quickly enough. His instinctive move will likely be a slice backhand, which will be more of a weak, reflective shot and land short - you can move in and put the ball away.
@@cf4996 Great observation! Drawing errors off his backhand seemed more intuitive but because he goes for more on the forehand, he also misses a bit more. Robert is actually one of the top players in the world in 55+! Definitely knows what he is doing and he loves to see me struggling with that top spin forehand off his sliced backhand haha
@@tennisteuton Sounds good! You're right, his instinct may be to expect a backhand so hitting in the middle and the forehand may force him to change his familiar patterns. it will also allow me to stop running left and right as much haha
@@sandratoplaystennis "Winning Ugly" by Brad Gilbert inspired me for this answer. He recommended to play through the middle if your opponent is quick on his feet, taking his advantage when running down balls out of the equation. Same here, I thought, when Robert is so good playing from the corners.
Hi there Sandrato, what a very professional movie you have made of your game with Robert, it sure shows his very "full arm" type of play, just as he learned at home on clay, from among others his mum and dad. He beat me first time when he was 12 ! Best greetings from Robert dad, back home in snowy small town Mariehamn, Aaland Islands, Finland. and a NICE X-mas, from Ralph
Hello Ralph! Thank you so much for your kind comment and thank you for sharing this memory with me 😊 I always enjoy playing with Robert and he such a great player! I’ve never actually been to 🇫🇮 before. What’s tennis like in over there nowadays? Merry Christmas to you as well!
I play old timers at my club quite often. We tend to slow down our strokes to match their game. Keep reminding yourself to play with intensity. Heavy topspin and fast ball to the centre work for me. All the best!
I think you might come a cropper slowing down your game because the player is older? I would never assess anyones ability on their age. There are plenty of “old timers” out there beating impatient young bucks!
This was really entertaining! I think to do better against him you need to hit through the backhands (and not brush immediately upwards, which just slows down the ball and defeats the purpose of top spin), and also hit high spin balls to his backhand and approach behind it. I think you approached to his backhand like this once the entire set. I know you're tight and afraid to come to the net, but against someone who you know is going to slice every time for the passing shot, the only way they'll beat you is with an amazing low slice or a lob. Keep up the great playing!
@@sandratoplaystennis I definitely agree with @jeffcohntennis's advice. No matter how good someone's slice is, it's tough to hit a slice passing shot, especially when the ball is out of your strike zone. I think rolling it high to Robert's backhand and coming in would held you a lot. Same idea hitting the kick serve into the ad court. All he can really do is block that back. If you come in behind that shot, it will force him to do more than what he's comfortable doing. Keep it up. You've got a great game. You're right there with this guy.
@@bobbyearles4230 Thank you! Yes i need to come in on his backhand with a high top spin ball, but i can mostly do that by going first to his forehand cause hitting a high ball off a slice is not easy.
I play a similar style to Robert, so I feel qualified to talk about the pros and cons of it and the best strategies against it. So basically, you’re a very good finesse player, you have a lot of well rounded skills. But that doesn’t work vs someone like Robert. He is ok moving side to side, and if you give him time and let him stand close to the baseline and let him dictate points youre gonna be in trouble. As a simple example, look at Adrian Mannarino (a fantastic finesse player) 1-4 record vs Dan Evans (someone similar to Robert). Instead you need to use heavy spin and depth to force him off the baseline, and that will give you opportunities to win points in various ways - open court, short forehands, swing volleys, dropshots, or coming to net. So play big and heavy to safe zones instead of trying to use angles and consistency. The slice is not good at short hop balls. And his flat forehand doesnt want to hit balls above his shoulder from heavy topspin either
Thank you so much for the tips! Yes I do play with consistency, but i realize that it also plays in his favor. You're right, next time, i will go much bigger on the return but on safer targets to force shorter balls instead of angling it and engage in a rally. I will have to mix in consistency/grind and aggressive fast shots depending on the scoreboard and how he reacts to it.
@@sandratoplaystennisthe hard thing about playing against a style like this is, if he does start moving deeper behind the baseline to defend heavy balls with depth, you essentially need to string together 2-3 good shots to win points where he doesnt miss. But slices really hate trying to short hop a ball, so if he doesnt back up there will be lots of forced errors. And when he does back up, then you can use your well rounded skills to attack. For the opposite side, watch how Alcaraz plays vs Evans and how repeatable the offense looks. And i dont think his forehand held up well when you went big to that side. So just going heavy with depth up the middle to push him off the baseline is a super safe strategy and then you can pick your offense after.
@@daut44 Love it! Next time, i'll go hard on his forehand to break his slice backhand pattern that he loves. Winning points from the baseline off his slices is hard! haha
Awesome match and thanks for posting. Robert is an awesome looking player with a tough game. Want to support the comment above. He's eating up your mid depth hard balls and giving you lower and harder balls to return. Gotta hit high and deep so he either has to short hop everything or backup and take them high. At 1-3, 30 all is the only time you try this. Big soft backhand deep to his backhand is rewarded w short midcourt ball that you then control the point from there. It's not glorious tennis but this ball will make him the most uncomfortable. His counter will be to rush the net when he sees you loading up for the moonball to take it out of the air. Now it's a mind game if you're gonna moonball or roll them to his feet! Enjoy
@@travis18425thank you so much for your thoughtful analysis! I like the way you put it: it’s not glorious tennis but it’s good tennis. Effectiveness is more important that esthetics haha
I play with a lot of slice too... Maybe not as much as Robert. I would recommend trying to get the ball outside of his strike zone while he is moving. E.g. draw him wide to his loopy forehand and then loop back aggressively with heavy topspin to his slice backhand. The combination of having to move sideways, backwards, and slice is likely to create a floating slice, short ball, or outright error. At least it happens that way for me. I might be able to counter aggressively with my slice one or two times, but shot tolerance will break down quicker this way. 7:12 is a good example where you got the ball outside of his ideal slice strike zone. Unfortunately you weren't able to capitalize on the short ball for a put away, but do that enough times and you will generate many opportunities
You could also try hitting very aggressive flat balls with pace to his slice backhand instead of the moderately paced neutral ball.. Slices tend to be error prone when absorbing too much pace. Of course.. that probably plays into his game of having you take greater risk as well. Lastly, hitting a slice while backing up is super hard. If you have the touch, pull him into the court and push him back with depth. Don't allow him to set his feet and move his body weight forward on the slice.
Yes going to his forehand so that i can get a high top spin forehand to this backhand to get a floating slice seems like a duable strategy. In addition, forcing him to hit a backhand passing shot after approaching the net as well would be good too. Thanks!
I don't play at your level, but in doubles I've never seen a slicer who can effectively handle high kick servers to the backhand against serve volley. Someone here mentioned Dan Evens. As good as his slice is when playing doubles he mostly returns with topspin on the BH side. It's hard to generate pace with slices especially against high balls, and placement alone is often not enough against decent volleyers. So maybe try the same pattern, high ball to the BH and approach the net?
you're right it's harder to handle high serve with a slice backhand so in doubles the guy at the net can get a put away off the return. in singles, i could definitely serve and volley from time to time, but not too much so he doesn't expect it and start returning from closer to the service line. but in general like you said slice backhands don't like high balls, which i can get more of off his forehand side :)
I think you just need to play bigger with more depth and spin. I noticed majority of your returns are back to the service line. Most vets have very good touch and if they come to the net you are screwed =P Anyways still great game . Keep it up !
What struck me about your play here was that you seemed tentative - is that fair to say? So many of your shots - both ground-strokes and your service return - were at or near the service line far too often. I think that allowed him to step in and do what he liked. Maybe next time work on more depth? Rolling high shots deep to his backhand seemed to work OK here because he slices everything on that side. But I would have tried to rush him on the forehand side more. Go to that side with a lot more pace and depth. You seemed to get lulled into his rhythm of play early on, and I saw a lot more defense from you, and a lot more scrambling. Since his stroke technique isn't classic, taking time away from players like that might be more effective. So maybe more pace on your shots next time. If you give him time to do his slicing and dicing, that seems to hurt you. And unload on as many returns as you can. Just my two cents worth!😁
Yes I definitely got lulled into his rhythm and playing style. Next time, i'll try to be more aggressive from the first ball and and avoid long rallies on every point, as well as going to his forehand side a lot more. Thank you!
From what I saw the main difference was unforced errors. You made many and he made few. You seemed to be forcing some shots that weren’t really good percentage. Better to put some air on the ball deep down the middle and reset. Also, his forehand seems to lack penetration, so try to hit deep to that side and work into the net.
Well-played by Robert though! Shows you how underrated the slice can be as a weapon. Robert plays like MEP with more aggressive strokes and a faster serve (which is why he is at 5.0 and not 4.5).
Absolutely! it's not as common to see a player who uses the slice as an aggressive weapon rather than a defensive one nowadays. It takes less energy out of him than hitting it with top spin, and It gives him more time to recover as well.
MEP has awful form and stroke production. What he does well is redirect and absorb the incoming pace. But Robert can do the same here, and he has a fully developed backhand slice and volleys. He's a surgeon here.
@@beaglesrfun5896 Agreed: his strokes look weird but they work great! he definitely found what works for him and he controls the depth and angle beautifully.
Back with another Tennis video after a little break! I played against the best player on the channel so far and I struggled against his style of play. Let me know what you think is a good strategy against a solid baseliner who hits aggressive slices and who uses the court geometry very well.
I play a guy who plays just like this who was ranked top 30 in the world for over 60s. Total nightmare. Can hit the BH slice anywhere he wants and never misses with it. I found the best thing I can do is attack his FH. His FH has more power but he will miss with it, trying to get a miss from the slice is like drawing blood from a stone. Notice the games you won in a row it was off errors from his FH!
Opening up the angles may give him an advantage, because he can use the geometry of the court well. Play through the middle at his feet instead. He may have problems getting his body out of the way quickly enough. His instinctive move will likely be a slice backhand, which will be more of a weak, reflective shot and land short - you can move in and put the ball away.
@@cf4996 Great observation! Drawing errors off his backhand seemed more intuitive but because he goes for more on the forehand, he also misses a bit more. Robert is actually one of the top players in the world in 55+! Definitely knows what he is doing and he loves to see me struggling with that top spin forehand off his sliced backhand haha
@@tennisteuton Sounds good! You're right, his instinct may be to expect a backhand so hitting in the middle and the forehand may force him to change his familiar patterns. it will also allow me to stop running left and right as much haha
@@sandratoplaystennis "Winning Ugly" by Brad Gilbert inspired me for this answer. He recommended to play through the middle if your opponent is quick on his feet, taking his advantage when running down balls out of the equation. Same here, I thought, when Robert is so good playing from the corners.
Hi there Sandrato, what a very professional movie you have made of your game with Robert, it sure shows his very "full arm" type of play, just as he learned at home on clay, from among others his mum and dad. He beat me first time when he was 12 ! Best greetings from Robert dad, back home in snowy small town Mariehamn, Aaland Islands, Finland. and a NICE X-mas, from Ralph
Hello Ralph! Thank you so much for your kind comment and thank you for sharing this memory with me 😊 I always enjoy playing with Robert and he such a great player! I’ve never actually been to 🇫🇮 before. What’s tennis like in over there nowadays? Merry Christmas to you as well!
I play old timers at my club quite often. We tend to slow down our strokes to match their game. Keep reminding yourself to play with intensity. Heavy topspin and fast ball to the centre work for me. All the best!
Very true!
I think you might come a cropper slowing down your game because the player is older? I would never assess anyones ability on their age. There are plenty of “old timers” out there beating impatient young bucks!
Wow if he's around next time I'm in town, I want to get a taste of that tennis! I should upload our hitting footage. Good to hit with you last time!
you should be absolutely crushing his second serve.
Yes! Will definitely be more aggressive on the return in our next match.
This was really entertaining! I think to do better against him you need to hit through the backhands (and not brush immediately upwards, which just slows down the ball and defeats the purpose of top spin), and also hit high spin balls to his backhand and approach behind it. I think you approached to his backhand like this once the entire set. I know you're tight and afraid to come to the net, but against someone who you know is going to slice every time for the passing shot, the only way they'll beat you is with an amazing low slice or a lob. Keep up the great playing!
Yes i gotta force myself to come in and force him to hit a good backhand passing shot. Thanks!
@@sandratoplaystennis I definitely agree with @jeffcohntennis's advice. No matter how good someone's slice is, it's tough to hit a slice passing shot, especially when the ball is out of your strike zone. I think rolling it high to Robert's backhand and coming in would held you a lot. Same idea hitting the kick serve into the ad court. All he can really do is block that back. If you come in behind that shot, it will force him to do more than what he's comfortable doing. Keep it up. You've got a great game. You're right there with this guy.
@@bobbyearles4230 Thank you! Yes i need to come in on his backhand with a high top spin ball, but i can mostly do that by going first to his forehand cause hitting a high ball off a slice is not easy.
I play a similar style to Robert, so I feel qualified to talk about the pros and cons of it and the best strategies against it.
So basically, you’re a very good finesse player, you have a lot of well rounded skills. But that doesn’t work vs someone like Robert. He is ok moving side to side, and if you give him time and let him stand close to the baseline and let him dictate points youre gonna be in trouble. As a simple example, look at Adrian Mannarino (a fantastic finesse player) 1-4 record vs Dan Evans (someone similar to Robert).
Instead you need to use heavy spin and depth to force him off the baseline, and that will give you opportunities to win points in various ways - open court, short forehands, swing volleys, dropshots, or coming to net.
So play big and heavy to safe zones instead of trying to use angles and consistency. The slice is not good at short hop balls. And his flat forehand doesnt want to hit balls above his shoulder from heavy topspin either
Thank you so much for the tips! Yes I do play with consistency, but i realize that it also plays in his favor. You're right, next time, i will go much bigger on the return but on safer targets to force shorter balls instead of angling it and engage in a rally. I will have to mix in consistency/grind and aggressive fast shots depending on the scoreboard and how he reacts to it.
@@sandratoplaystennisthe hard thing about playing against a style like this is, if he does start moving deeper behind the baseline to defend heavy balls with depth, you essentially need to string together 2-3 good shots to win points where he doesnt miss.
But slices really hate trying to short hop a ball, so if he doesnt back up there will be lots of forced errors. And when he does back up, then you can use your well rounded skills to attack. For the opposite side, watch how Alcaraz plays vs Evans and how repeatable the offense looks.
And i dont think his forehand held up well when you went big to that side. So just going heavy with depth up the middle to push him off the baseline is a super safe strategy and then you can pick your offense after.
@@daut44 Love it! Next time, i'll go hard on his forehand to break his slice backhand pattern that he loves. Winning points from the baseline off his slices is hard! haha
Awesome match and thanks for posting. Robert is an awesome looking player with a tough game. Want to support the comment above. He's eating up your mid depth hard balls and giving you lower and harder balls to return. Gotta hit high and deep so he either has to short hop everything or backup and take them high. At 1-3, 30 all is the only time you try this. Big soft backhand deep to his backhand is rewarded w short midcourt ball that you then control the point from there. It's not glorious tennis but this ball will make him the most uncomfortable. His counter will be to rush the net when he sees you loading up for the moonball to take it out of the air. Now it's a mind game if you're gonna moonball or roll them to his feet! Enjoy
@@travis18425thank you so much for your thoughtful analysis! I like the way you put it: it’s not glorious tennis but it’s good tennis. Effectiveness is more important that esthetics haha
I play with a lot of slice too... Maybe not as much as Robert. I would recommend trying to get the ball outside of his strike zone while he is moving. E.g. draw him wide to his loopy forehand and then loop back aggressively with heavy topspin to his slice backhand. The combination of having to move sideways, backwards, and slice is likely to create a floating slice, short ball, or outright error. At least it happens that way for me. I might be able to counter aggressively with my slice one or two times, but shot tolerance will break down quicker this way.
7:12 is a good example where you got the ball outside of his ideal slice strike zone. Unfortunately you weren't able to capitalize on the short ball for a put away, but do that enough times and you will generate many opportunities
You could also try hitting very aggressive flat balls with pace to his slice backhand instead of the moderately paced neutral ball.. Slices tend to be error prone when absorbing too much pace. Of course.. that probably plays into his game of having you take greater risk as well.
Lastly, hitting a slice while backing up is super hard. If you have the touch, pull him into the court and push him back with depth. Don't allow him to set his feet and move his body weight forward on the slice.
Yes going to his forehand so that i can get a high top spin forehand to this backhand to get a floating slice seems like a duable strategy. In addition, forcing him to hit a backhand passing shot after approaching the net as well would be good too. Thanks!
Go to the net when you hit it to his backhand. Hit deep middle to his forehand to limit his angles
I don't play at your level, but in doubles I've never seen a slicer who can effectively handle high kick servers to the backhand against serve volley. Someone here mentioned Dan Evens. As good as his slice is when playing doubles he mostly returns with topspin on the BH side. It's hard to generate pace with slices especially against high balls, and placement alone is often not enough against decent volleyers. So maybe try the same pattern, high ball to the BH and approach the net?
you're right it's harder to handle high serve with a slice backhand so in doubles the guy at the net can get a put away off the return. in singles, i could definitely serve and volley from time to time, but not too much so he doesn't expect it and start returning from closer to the service line. but in general like you said slice backhands don't like high balls, which i can get more of off his forehand side :)
What does Robert play now? Usta league? Tournaments? What’s his Ntrp?
I think 5.0 leagues and some tournaments. i know he plays often
any chance we can get a full name? I wonder what robert's utr is.
he looks like a 9.0 to me, but curious too, would want to confirm.
Yes He is a 9.0!
Do you live in the Las Vegas area? If so, I’m there periodically and would like to hit with you. I’m a solid 4.5 player. Let me know
Yes let met know when you’re coming!
Take the ball early and coming in and volley
I think you just need to play bigger with more depth and spin. I noticed majority of your returns are back to the service line.
Most vets have very good touch and if they come to the net you are screwed =P Anyways still great game . Keep it up !
What struck me about your play here was that you seemed tentative - is that fair to say? So many of your shots - both ground-strokes and your service return - were at or near the service line far too often. I think that allowed him to step in and do what he liked. Maybe next time work on more depth? Rolling high shots deep to his backhand seemed to work OK here because he slices everything on that side. But I would have tried to rush him on the forehand side more. Go to that side with a lot more pace and depth. You seemed to get lulled into his rhythm of play early on, and I saw a lot more defense from you, and a lot more scrambling. Since his stroke technique isn't classic, taking time away from players like that might be more effective. So maybe more pace on your shots next time. If you give him time to do his slicing and dicing, that seems to hurt you. And unload on as many returns as you can. Just my two cents worth!😁
Yes I definitely got lulled into his rhythm and playing style. Next time, i'll try to be more aggressive from the first ball and and avoid long rallies on every point, as well as going to his forehand side a lot more. Thank you!
From what I saw the main difference was unforced errors. You made many and he made few. You seemed to be forcing some shots that weren’t really good percentage. Better to put some air on the ball deep down the middle and reset. Also, his forehand seems to lack penetration, so try to hit deep to that side and work into the net.
Sorry I didn’t see that comment until now. I appreciate the observation. So hit deep to his forehand and come to the net?
I play 64 and a 59 year old dudes that are way better than this 50 year old. He would get spanked in these circles.
Must be nice to play with good players!
Well-played by Robert though! Shows you how underrated the slice can be as a weapon. Robert plays like MEP with more aggressive strokes and a faster serve (which is why he is at 5.0 and not 4.5).
Absolutely! it's not as common to see a player who uses the slice as an aggressive weapon rather than a defensive one nowadays. It takes less energy out of him than hitting it with top spin, and It gives him more time to recover as well.
MEP has awful form and stroke production. What he does well is redirect and absorb the incoming pace. But Robert can do the same here, and he has a fully developed backhand slice and volleys. He's a surgeon here.
@@beaglesrfun5896 Yes. I think the forehand kind of reminded me of Ben.
@@beaglesrfun5896 Agreed: his strokes look weird but they work great! he definitely found what works for him and he controls the depth and angle beautifully.
quality of shots not look like 4.5 to me.
What do they look like to you?