We rarely hear about Salvation from sin anymore. It’s now all about social justice and finding a decent sofa for the refugees from Sudan. Sure, the Church is there to serve, but we’ve left our first love. Repent and then go find the sofa.
Yep. Time to split. Shake hands and each can go their own way and seek what they desire. A coalition of the willing.....not the constrained. If you don't dig it- go.
The People of the UMC have met, considered, and decided the best pathway forward. They also passed a plan to allow those unhappy to graciously leave with their assets and find a new path. ANY organization should be made up of the willing, not the constrained. If anyone feels constrained - you have a very easy way to go in a different direction. Shake hands bless each other, and walk away.
We left the UM 4 months ago - specifically due to what Rob says at 2:00. I was sick of seeing my donations and my work as chairman of the local board corrupted by people doing whatever they felt like -Against the Church Doctrine - with no consequences. I was amazed that about 1/2 the Bishops wanted to preach sodomy as the biblical standard. It is tsad to see that tens of millions had to be spent over the last year for the church to decide that promoting sodomy isn't appropriate - even though some of the bishops wanted to direct the church to go that way.
I have heard Bishop Dyck arguing that "if we split on this then we will split on something else" as a reason to forget the OCP is going against the Bible. The progressive can't talk about the scripture that is clear about homosexuality (and how to love those who sin), they say "how can you slide on eating pork or shellfish but enforce that one part of the Bible?" I would love to debate pork and shellfish but we are talking about same-sex marriage and that is just a way to get off the subject. The Bible is very clear on the act of homosexuality in both the old AND new testament. People need to read Rob's book www.amazon.com/dp/B076X8TK69/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 - It says what I fail to put into words. God bless you Rev. Rob.
@@stevemcelyea4819 I think the traditional Bible (the majority of UMC) should stay, the pro same-sex part should leave. The folks messing it all up are the ones who joined the UMC knowing their position on homosexuality "The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching." Then why did they join? We, the Bible faithful, should not be the ones to leave. I have spoken with those who support the One Church Plan who vow they will not leave if they lose the vote, but will stay and destroy the church if they don't get their way. Does that sound Christ-like to you? This issue has been voted down many times since the 1974 (I believe I have the correct date) so why are we voting on it again? If you can't follow the laws you made a covenant with the church and God, then why are you still here? Even if the vote is 80% for the Modified Traditional Plan, they will just stay and not leave, and make the church look even worse. If they win, they will force all of the church to "get in line" sooner or later with continued assaults, false rumors, and more lies. I mean they lied to get in, they will lie again.
Except the cost of trying to split my be so exorbitant that the only viable option is to remain one denomination. I have heard that for any church to leave, it would have to pay $100,000 for each ordained minister on staff to cover pension costs. If a local church has a budget of $700,000, has 3 ordained clergy (senior pastor, associate pastor, and youth pastor), and a building that needs a new furnace and a new roof, there is no money to pay for the pension buy-out. Then, there is the cost for the two groups of churches of setting up conferences, districts, a committee on relief, and the like. I've known people over the years who, if money weren't an issue, would divorce a spouse. But, the cost of divorce, or the money situation after divorce makes staying in an unhappy marriage the more appealing option. That kind of thinking is what could keep the United Methodist Church together.
Sin is clearly defined in scripture. None of us has the authority to redefine that which God the Almighty has so ordained. It is not a matter of context nor interpretation. It is a matter of sin and/or repentance. God’s way or man’s way. One leads to Salvation. One leads to something much less and significantly worse for all of eternity
Our job as Christian is to tell everyone about the love of Jesus. It’s Jesus’ job to change the hearts of the people. Every denomination has gone through some kind of split for whatever reason. The United Methodist Church will survive as an organization. Real Estate properties: all properties purchased under United Methodist denomination that is no longer used by a UMC organization is sold, and the proceeds used to fund the UMC pension obligations. Christians need to be passionate about the condition of refugee children separated from their parents and housed in cages. Young boys and girls trafficked for sex at significant sporting events; more and more people are falling into homelessness because they aren’t making a liveable wage and etc. The judgment of the homosexual person, abortion rights, immigrants coming to the United States invokes high passion and energy for meetings and great discussions in the Christian communities. BIG distraction, the devil is busy.
Homosexual activity is not a distraction, its an abomination. The Church should have took a Biblical stand on things a long time ago according to 2 Timothy 3:16. When you tell homosexuals that God loves them and can save them and deliver them out of their wicked lifestyle, they say "repent? i'm not going to repent." Homosexuals hate scripture.
I don't hear anything here that is Methodist in nature. I hear Evangelicalism but not Methodist. And maybe that is how this ends. Methodists and Evangelicals finally go our own ways and stay away from each other doing our own ministry to the people whom we are called to. But what I heard and what I was taught in seminary as to what Methodism is was not what heard from the speaker. And the comments bear this out. Liberalism and probably Moderate theology are seen as cancers on the conservative evangelical movement. Given these feelings, it makes sense that the church has been plagued by dreams of schism and even the development of WCA as the backup (Primary?) plan in the event that the rest of the US breaks away. I just don't see how the SE US can maintain the footprint long term to pursue the level of ministries that the global church does now. At the same time, I don't see the Western, Northern, and Northeastern conferences supporting in time and effort institutional discrimination. If the Traditional Plan passes it will need these conferences to push the constitutional accountability measures over the top. The votes just are not there. Many of our conferences simply lack enough conservatives to make this happen. What will happen and we see this in the Lutheran Churches here in Minnesota is that the conservative churches here will leave and slowly die and the liberal congregations will consolidate. Both will abandon the inner city and neither will be effective enough to accomplish much of anything.
Just one point of clarification. The Traditional Plan does not have any constitutional amendments, so it can be adopted by General Conference without ratification by the annual conferences. Also, there are many evangelical congregations and clergy in the North and even some in the West. This is not just a matter of Southern churches versus the rest.
@@revtom5 The accountability measures will require AC sign off. You can't just bail out without a price being paid. As for the number of conservative congregations. Yes there are conservative pastors and congregations in the West and North. But not enough to make a difference in their AC's. To me this is a Southern versus Northern congregation issue. I am ok with the Southern congregations, AC's and any supporters leaving the connection and moving on. If this will allow the rest of the Church to move on fine. But this high stakes negotiation style of tactics will leave the AC's and Congregations left behind with a very sour taste.But in the end if this was about a mutual Christian separation we wouldn't be having these discussions.
@@Peachcreekmedia I agree that the healthier course would have been to discuss mutual Christian separation. By "sign off" I assumed you meant approval. Under the TP and the proposed exit paths, the annual conference does not have to approve. But the local church is required to provide for pension liabilities. (Some exit path proposals require more payment than that.) I don't know what is "non-Methodist" about the TP or the exit paths.
The agenda of becoming like the world is not a Moderate plan it is liberal. The gates of Hell have opened wider due to the educated elites attempt at leading the UMC towards worldly views. We are called to be Holy- set apart. This calling has been abandoned by the leadership in its attempt to grow the ranks through liberal theology.
2’59” “Let’s not play out this g...” At least his brain engaged and he stopped there! I don’t think calling this a “game” would have been a fair representation of the “scenario” Split, and we can predict with a level of certainty that there will be loving heterosexual couples who have beautiful babies, and some will grow and they will be gay. It’s a simple fact of life. Your new church will treat them as “less than” because that’s what you believe. In the 1980s I attended a funeral at a Methodist church because a 16 year old had hung himself. I know that would not happen today at that church because so many of the congregation came to my wedding (same sex) but how do we (all of us) find a way to endure every church loves and values all? Splitting to form a denomination which exists because of a rejection of this one thing seems wrong.
Views about biblical values are what is going to likely split the church. Some feel 1 way, some feel another - that's fine. Just accept that not all reach everyone - but lots of folks can reach lots of others. Forcing your views on someone else isn't helpful. Just shake hands and separate - easy, simple, and the right thing to do.
I would agree, if I did not feel so concerned that splitting leaves future parents of LGBTQ offspring dealing with an interpretation which does harm. People actually kill themselves because they are treated wrongly through this. I find it challenging to justify my position to myself so I understand the complexity and also that the adults on both extremes feel hurt. I’m more bothered about the futures of the new generations though. One side would say that the way forward is TP and the other the SP. I feel like OCP means there will still be a tension but in time as people move on from this world we will, as has been happening more, realize we can fully include LGBTQ. We won’t see plagues because of it, and we will be more loving of each other. That’s my prayer anyway.
@@pazstephen9779 if that's the case - then the future offspring can find their rightful home. Free will - nobody is forced to do what they don't want to. Move on, find your deal, quit fighting over it, and forcing your views on the other groups.
If there was no forcing of anything then we’d still be doing all sorts of things to God’s children in marginal groups. We justified racial separation in this country etc...
@@pazstephen9779 some may say that forcing current views on anyone about anything will stiffel future views of everyone on everything. Example - forcing views of "a" on people that like "b" may make the "b" people accepting of the "a" item......However, why should the "a" people not be forced to accept the "b" items? Why is it OK to force in one direction only? And if you thing "c" is the best pathway - why should A or B be forced? Just find a group that finds "c" the preferred way to go - and go that way. If there is a devoted, strongly organized of left handed people and that group is thriving, why should a right handed person force their view on the left handed folks, and REQUIRE that the left accept the rights? Why don't the rights just do their own thing and leave the lefts alone?
I am sorry that you in the WCA are choosing to leave, but that is your decision. The rest of us who are progressive realize that anyone who is LBGT was LBG or T at birth, they did not choose their sexual orientation or gender identity. Come, please into the 21 century. We are all God's Children so long as we love our neighbors as our selves and Love God.
The “conservatives” realize that all people are conceived and born sinful, and the call to repentance is universal. None of us, other than Adam and Eve, chose to enter the sinful condition, yet we are members of the sinful, broken human race. We all are born with proclivities that go against God’s revealed Word, and we all must repent and cling to Christ’s gospel. Jesus Christ offers salvation and redemption from sin and it’s brokenness. He offers the power of the Holy Spirit to live a new life that is in keeping with His created order. To deny His power is to deny the Almighty and what He promises to do in His revealed Word. This is why “conservatives” will not cave in to the deceptions of satan in the 21st century.
We rarely hear about Salvation from sin anymore. It’s now all about social justice and finding a decent sofa for the refugees from Sudan. Sure, the Church is there to serve, but we’ve left our first love. Repent and then go find the sofa.
Yep. Time to split. Shake hands and each can go their own way and seek what they desire. A coalition of the willing.....not the constrained. If you don't dig it- go.
Absolutely!
The People of the UMC have met, considered, and decided the best pathway forward. They also passed a plan to allow those unhappy to graciously leave with their assets and find a new path. ANY organization should be made up of the willing, not the constrained. If anyone feels constrained - you have a very easy way to go in a different direction. Shake hands bless each other, and walk away.
Well said. Beautiful sir. Thank you
Amen
Amen I agree 100%👍🏼
It's better to divide in truth than unit in error.
We left the UM 4 months ago - specifically due to what Rob says at 2:00. I was sick of seeing my donations and my work as chairman of the local board corrupted by people doing whatever they felt like -Against the Church Doctrine - with no consequences. I was amazed that about 1/2 the Bishops wanted to preach sodomy as the biblical standard. It is tsad to see that tens of millions had to be spent over the last year for the church to decide that promoting sodomy isn't appropriate - even though some of the bishops wanted to direct the church to go that way.
Same here. Haven't been to our UMC in 8 months due to this💔😪
I have heard Bishop Dyck arguing that "if we split on this then we will split on something else" as a reason to forget the OCP is going against the Bible. The progressive can't talk about the scripture that is clear about homosexuality (and how to love those who sin), they say "how can you slide on eating pork or shellfish but enforce that one part of the Bible?" I would love to debate pork and shellfish but we are talking about same-sex marriage and that is just a way to get off the subject. The Bible is very clear on the act of homosexuality in both the old AND new testament. People need to read Rob's book www.amazon.com/dp/B076X8TK69/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 - It says what I fail to put into words. God bless you Rev. Rob.
So what's wrong with splitting. Didn't all the protestants split off of the catholic church? That seems like it has worked out to reach more people?
@@stevemcelyea4819 I think the traditional Bible (the majority of UMC) should stay, the pro same-sex part should leave. The folks messing it all up are the ones who joined the UMC knowing their position on homosexuality "The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching." Then why did they join? We, the Bible faithful, should not be the ones to leave. I have spoken with those who support the One Church Plan who vow they will not leave if they lose the vote, but will stay and destroy the church if they don't get their way. Does that sound Christ-like to you? This issue has been voted down many times since the 1974 (I believe I have the correct date) so why are we voting on it again? If you can't follow the laws you made a covenant with the church and God, then why are you still here? Even if the vote is 80% for the Modified Traditional Plan, they will just stay and not leave, and make the church look even worse. If they win, they will force all of the church to "get in line" sooner or later with continued assaults, false rumors, and more lies. I mean they lied to get in, they will lie again.
@@defan2105 Yep - agreed. Let them split off and leave. Good luck, good wishes.. goodbye.
You are correct. Changing the subject simply is a tactic used so as to not have to address the true issue - Sin and Repentance.
Good that there are some that will not now down to Baal!
Except the cost of trying to split my be so exorbitant that the only viable option is to remain one denomination. I have heard that for any church to leave, it would have to pay $100,000 for each ordained minister on staff to cover pension costs.
If a local church has a budget of $700,000, has 3 ordained clergy (senior pastor, associate pastor, and youth pastor), and a building that needs a new furnace and a new roof, there is no money to pay for the pension buy-out.
Then, there is the cost for the two groups of churches of setting up conferences, districts, a committee on relief, and the like.
I've known people over the years who, if money weren't an issue, would divorce a spouse. But, the cost of divorce, or the money situation after divorce makes staying in an unhappy marriage the more appealing option.
That kind of thinking is what could keep the United Methodist Church together.
Sin is clearly defined in scripture. None of us has the authority to redefine that which God the Almighty has so ordained. It is not a matter of context nor interpretation. It is a matter of sin and/or repentance. God’s way or man’s way. One leads to Salvation. One leads to something much less and significantly worse for all of eternity
Methodists can choose Christ and loyalty to Christ and not a denomination by becoming Biblical Christians.
Our job as Christian is to tell everyone about the love of Jesus. It’s Jesus’ job to change the hearts of the people. Every denomination has gone through some kind of split for whatever reason. The United Methodist Church will survive as an organization. Real Estate properties: all properties purchased under United Methodist denomination that is no longer used by a UMC organization is sold, and the proceeds used to fund the UMC pension obligations. Christians need to be passionate about the condition of refugee children separated from their parents and housed in cages. Young boys and girls trafficked for sex at significant sporting events; more and more people are falling into homelessness because they aren’t making a liveable wage and etc. The judgment of the homosexual person, abortion rights, immigrants coming to the United States invokes high passion and energy for meetings and great discussions in the Christian communities. BIG distraction, the devil is busy.
Homosexual activity is not a distraction, its an abomination. The Church should have took a Biblical stand on things a long time ago according to 2 Timothy 3:16. When you tell homosexuals that God loves them and can save them and deliver them out of their wicked lifestyle, they say "repent? i'm not going to repent." Homosexuals hate scripture.
I don't hear anything here that is Methodist in nature. I hear Evangelicalism but not Methodist. And maybe that is how this ends. Methodists and Evangelicals finally go our own ways and stay away from each other doing our own ministry to the people whom we are called to. But what I heard and what I was taught in seminary as to what Methodism is was not what heard from the speaker. And the comments bear this out. Liberalism and probably Moderate theology are seen as cancers on the conservative evangelical movement. Given these feelings, it makes sense that the church has been plagued by dreams of schism and even the development of WCA as the backup (Primary?) plan in the event that the rest of the US breaks away. I just don't see how the SE US can maintain the footprint long term to pursue the level of ministries that the global church does now. At the same time, I don't see the Western, Northern, and Northeastern conferences supporting in time and effort institutional discrimination. If the Traditional Plan passes it will need these conferences to push the constitutional accountability measures over the top. The votes just are not there. Many of our conferences simply lack enough conservatives to make this happen. What will happen and we see this in the Lutheran Churches here in Minnesota is that the conservative churches here will leave and slowly die and the liberal congregations will consolidate. Both will abandon the inner city and neither will be effective enough to accomplish much of anything.
Just one point of clarification. The Traditional Plan does not have any constitutional amendments, so it can be adopted by General Conference without ratification by the annual conferences. Also, there are many evangelical congregations and clergy in the North and even some in the West. This is not just a matter of Southern churches versus the rest.
@@revtom5 The accountability measures will require AC sign off. You can't just bail out without a price being paid. As for the number of conservative congregations. Yes there are conservative pastors and congregations in the West and North. But not enough to make a difference in their AC's. To me this is a Southern versus Northern congregation issue. I am ok with the Southern congregations, AC's and any supporters leaving the connection and moving on. If this will allow the rest of the Church to move on fine. But this high stakes negotiation style of tactics will leave the AC's and Congregations left behind with a very sour taste.But in the end if this was about a mutual Christian separation we wouldn't be having these discussions.
@@Peachcreekmedia I agree that the healthier course would have been to discuss mutual Christian separation. By "sign off" I assumed you meant approval. Under the TP and the proposed exit paths, the annual conference does not have to approve. But the local church is required to provide for pension liabilities. (Some exit path proposals require more payment than that.) I don't know what is "non-Methodist" about the TP or the exit paths.
The agenda of becoming like the world is not a Moderate plan it is liberal. The gates of Hell have opened wider due to the educated elites attempt at leading the UMC towards worldly views. We are called to be Holy- set apart. This calling has been abandoned by the leadership in its attempt to grow the ranks through liberal theology.
2’59”
“Let’s not play out this g...”
At least his brain engaged and he stopped there! I don’t think calling this a “game” would have been a fair representation of the “scenario”
Split, and we can predict with a level of certainty that there will be loving heterosexual couples who have beautiful babies, and some will grow and they will be gay. It’s a simple fact of life. Your new church will treat them as “less than” because that’s what you believe.
In the 1980s I attended a funeral at a Methodist church because a 16 year old had hung himself. I know that would not happen today at that church because so many of the congregation came to my wedding (same sex) but how do we (all of us) find a way to endure every church loves and values all? Splitting to form a denomination which exists because of a rejection of this one thing seems wrong.
Views about biblical values are what is going to likely split the church. Some feel 1 way, some feel another - that's fine. Just accept that not all reach everyone - but lots of folks can reach lots of others. Forcing your views on someone else isn't helpful. Just shake hands and separate - easy, simple, and the right thing to do.
I would agree, if I did not feel so concerned that splitting leaves future parents of LGBTQ offspring dealing with an interpretation which does harm. People actually kill themselves because they are treated wrongly through this. I find it challenging to justify my position to myself so I understand the complexity and also that the adults on both extremes feel hurt. I’m more bothered about the futures of the new generations though. One side would say that the way forward is TP and the other the SP. I feel like OCP means there will still be a tension but in time as people move on from this world we will, as has been happening more, realize we can fully include LGBTQ. We won’t see plagues because of it, and we will be more loving of each other. That’s my prayer anyway.
@@pazstephen9779 if that's the case - then the future offspring can find their rightful home. Free will - nobody is forced to do what they don't want to. Move on, find your deal, quit fighting over it, and forcing your views on the other groups.
If there was no forcing of anything then we’d still be doing all sorts of things to God’s children in marginal groups. We justified racial separation in this country etc...
@@pazstephen9779 some may say that forcing current views on anyone about anything will stiffel future views of everyone on everything. Example - forcing views of "a" on people that like "b" may make the "b" people accepting of the "a" item......However, why should the "a" people not be forced to accept the "b" items? Why is it OK to force in one direction only? And if you thing "c" is the best pathway - why should A or B be forced? Just find a group that finds "c" the preferred way to go - and go that way.
If there is a devoted, strongly organized of left handed people and that group is thriving, why should a right handed person force their view on the left handed folks, and REQUIRE that the left accept the rights? Why don't the rights just do their own thing and leave the lefts alone?
I am sorry that you in the WCA are choosing to leave, but that is your decision. The rest of us who are progressive realize that anyone who is LBGT was LBG or T at birth, they did not choose their sexual orientation or gender identity. Come, please into the 21 century. We are all God's Children so long as we love our neighbors as our selves and Love God.
I don't think the WCA has chosen to leave. Rather, they desire to stay - but won't if the General Assembly decides to go against biblical teachings..
Nobody is born gay, there is no reliable science to prove that.The 21st century is not the issue, the issue is truth vs.error, right vs.wrong.
The “conservatives” realize that all people are conceived and born sinful, and the call to repentance is universal. None of us, other than Adam and Eve, chose to enter the sinful condition, yet we are members of the sinful, broken human race. We all are born with proclivities that go against God’s revealed Word, and we all must repent and cling to Christ’s gospel. Jesus Christ offers salvation and redemption from sin and it’s brokenness. He offers the power of the Holy Spirit to live a new life that is in keeping with His created order. To deny His power is to deny the Almighty and what He promises to do in His revealed Word. This is why “conservatives” will not cave in to the deceptions of satan in the 21st century.