5. Why It's Time for Traditionalists to Leave
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- The Rev. Rob Renfroe explains why it is time for traditionalists to leave The United Methodist Church. This is the fifth video in a series. It is important to watch video 1 to gain a context for this video. You can access video 1 here • 1. The United Methodis...
Methodism was hoodood into "united" Methodism. I remember what the denomination in which I was raised used to be. I miss it. Your words are spot on. I left several years ago for the ARP church.
I left for the Wesleyan church.
Thank you for putting this series together. I am trying to listen to both sides and filter through the lens of scripture, tradition, reason , and experience. Lots of prayer for all the churches being either scared or tricked into staying or leaving.
Where are you getting info from the other side?
@@cyrenahight5681 The book, "United Methodists, Divided" by Dale McConkey is an excellent resource. The author truly does not take sides, but presents viewpoints of those who frame themselves as Progressive and those who are Traditionalists. It was written in 2018, prior to the 2019 special called conference to address this issue in the church--which was obviously unsuccessful. I have listened to Adam Hamilton who is encouraging Traditionalists to remain in the UMC as well. I believe we each have to make our own decision to follow Christ as He leads us through the Word and the Spirit.
@@marianmonk1515 thank you
The Church is not a building. The church is made up of believers. Don't worry about a building let them have the money. Have faith, follow GOD and HE will provide
It's hard to find a biblical church in Baptist churches or Methodist I grew up Baptist and they most of them are lukewarm saddle back and many of the united Methodist churches are liberal thankfully I go to a evangelical Methodist church with a pastor who gives real altar calls and takes a stand for Bible based teaching and preaching and he is going to be making the transition to global Methodist church
Thank you Rob for sharing complete information about UMC vs. GMC in this video series. Many conservative pastors don't realize the basics of what is going on with the split. More people need to realize that there are many major biblical truths at stake here, so many people think the split is only about sexuality.
I was so.glsd to.hear Adam.Hamilton on the subject rather than be vVhe, and unclear , he stated pretty quickly he wasn.tblraving The UMC as I understand him. maybe a good reason why he was not avoiding clarity . I was so glad to.hear.from
Those who are staying in their Tradition congregation. .
Why must their be negotiations? The liberal punitive branch is clearly breaching their contract. THEY have broken the rules of the book of discipline. If anything they should be sued for breach of contract and the conservative churches should be allowed to leave without paying a penny or losing their property or church. It seems in any court of law, the ones who broke a previously agreed upon contract, are the ones who must pay any costs-not the other way around. I truly don't understand why the money is being paid to them as they do not have a legal leg to stand on
I agree! It's like the traditionalists are being blackmailed into staying because many of the smaller churches can't afford to pay to leave.
The... Best No Negotiate Move ...is to
Vote with your feet and walk away ....
The name and term ....
Global .... doesn't sound like very good wordage when describing something that is coming out of a liberal movement ....
This ..too ... will lead to more apostate heresy and hedonistic behavior ...
This is all happening for over 50 years and more due to the close of the Church Age and Age of Grace .....
The Bible tells us that these things will grow like a canker and cause all sorts of problems before the Lord's Return .... May we each prepare for the last and final days
Because the judges and prosecutors are the UMC progressives. They just ignore laws they don't agree with.
Thank you so much, Rev. Rob. I have taken the time to go to the sources you have referenced. I even got "THE RISE OF THEOLOGICAL LIBERALISM AND THE DECLINE OF AMERICAN METHODISM." I have found so much information and I am almost done with the Journal of the General Conference of 1972. I will also read the progression of 'pluralism' and 'social gospel' between 1968 and 2016 when the Lesbian Karen Oliveto was elected as bishop. This is enough for me in the UMC. I was removed from my position at a UMC church because I am a Biblical Christian and bishop Hope Ward told me, "Carlos Methodists are gracious people. Your theology is not Methodist. You are not a gracious theologian, and it is sad because we have invested heavily in you (Duke Divinity School). Your theology is a theology of judgment and hate." Rob, I have been preaching and teaching exactly what you have been mentioning. I believe in the supremacy and infallibility of the Bible-what the Bible says goes. Jesus Christ is our Lord, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary. Suffered and died for our sins; He did resurrect from the dead to defeat death to save all those who in Him believe. I have also, as you have taught, I have also given the facts about sexuality according to the Bible and as explicit as in the Book of Discipline. These videos are informative, and I am using this information for an information session this Sunday at a UMC. I have already been received in the GMC and can't wait to start preaching and teaching the Bible as it is written and doing ministry within the GMC without having to fight with progressive views (pluralism, social gospel) and those who call themselves centrists. Thank you very much. It is my hope that I can do a Ph.D. in SOUND Theology and Church History so that I can be better off to serve the Lord and His church or even a Seminary in the best way possible and by bringing truth in the Scriptures to all those people that God gives me the opportunity to serve.
Praying for your ministry. Church hurt is as bad as marriage infidelity. Don't let it separate you from God.
Once again, this video is clear, concise, honest, God-honoring, and speaking truth in love.
God never changes He's consistently the same
Rob, thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts on this matter. It can be difficult to push past the propaganda, so calling out specific examples of these theological issues has been greatly appreciated.
I like your videos.
Sad, but I can see where churches that are Traditionalist that cannot afford the extortion levied on them to leave with grace to simply lock the doors, mail the keys to the Bishop and start their own church Independent of the UMC, but Wesleyan in style of worship. It could happen.
This is what I want to do!
Thank you. 😊
Well said. Thank you.
Thank you for your message!
Check out proposed New Jersey conference baptismal liturgy.
Thank you for this series.
M.glad he not leaving , not left out
Amen. I walked away from the UMC in 1987, when my Pastor told me that they were still deciding whether homosexuality was a sin or not. I have several UMC Pastors in my family, and it grieves me to see the decline of the denomination that I loved so much. It is Ichabod...
A lot of this goes back to the communist infiltration of the churches starting in the 1920s.
Methodist Ministers , words left out , the daughter, granddaughter, great granddaughter , great niece , and cousin of Methodist Ministers ..
Amen
I have listened to.almost all of this video before wondering what was the intentions were , before realizing. the intended opinion about leaving the Traditional UMC .But listening to.Rev Adam Smith ,though listening to.the whole video, he was not vague, but I
Said pretty quickly he wasn t leaving the UMC. .thereby no.need for vague, unclear learning g of his answers. I agree with him.
I believe that the vote in St Louis in recent years is still standing, still in effect .
Thankfully , many congregations are not leaving or splitting as being encouraged leaving the church to what kind of future WMC in what should be of deep concern.
This is so sad. Where should we traditionalist should go at this time?
The rush to
Leave is based on the anticipation of a General.Conference coming up but. A year.s.postponent gives God. Time to heal The UMC despite all the human voices. deciding otherwise. A reprieve gives plenty time to
Pay for the next HeneraConference vote not.to.chsnge and trust God more than selves , and seek His Guidance more than their own .just a reminder.All things are possible with God. With prayer to seek His Guidance before taking steps in any. directionn .opinion
i enjoy your videos helping me understanding what going on with the UNMC
Before the announcement of the next General Conference..postponement. , The anticipation of a more.immenent of a different vote from the last one has maybe been the reasons for. The rush to leave The UMC .while other congregation stay and.retain the traditions. ..The reprieve now allows for much more prayer for the next General Conference next.year ..
truth
Comply with what the bible states. It’s hard to find a bible teaching Methodist, I think this video is important for traditional type thinkers, my prayer is God will will be understood on this issue.
Have you enjoyed a nice shrimp dinner? If so, the Bible says that you are a sinner.
Funny how there will be a big tent but you won’t be allowed in as a Traditionalist.
No it is not time to
Leave The UMC for still.many Congregations , and considering the future of The UMC , leaving would cause , is disturbing .
COMPLETELY RIGHT! Move forward and leave the coming APOSTATE UMC behind.
I hada bit of trouble hearing. Adam
Hamilton on his video as he s from.MO so talks faster. ,trying to.keep.up , I m glad he s or leaving Traditional.UMC,but didn t hear his. decision about. the Discipline rule about no same sex weddings by UMC. Pastors by the end of the video on what his reply to.Rev Renfro.s video. was, and hopes for the General.Confdrence results next year so hope it s the same , and according to The UMC rules .. Speakers sometimes forget that not everyone hears well.
As the daughter,granddaughter,great grandaughter , great niece, and cousin of Methodists , it s disturbing , an understatement to. spread and distribute this information, in this manner . Subject to many varied. opinions.
What happens to the seminaries? Can we assume that they will continue to supply the new pastors for the GMC?
GMC pastors will have many choices when it comes to seminaries. There will be a recommended list from the GMC which I believe may have only one of the 13 official UM seminaries. There are many better choices and I think pastors attracted to the UMC will go to one of the better ones. Good question.
@@robrenfroe8083 I have visited the campus of Asbury Theological Seminary. While it was a short visit, I like the impression I got from them. Thanks again for your comments!
The UMC seminaries IS the place of all this mess. The seminaries are turning loose people who don't even profess to absolute Truth of God's Written Word. Seminaries are bringing in...the most liberal of progressives to 'lead' churches. When anyone says this entire disassociation is bc of LGBTQ only, it's a lie from the pit of hell. Don't take my word for it. Research and investigate for yourself. God knows exactly what He's doing in separating evil from His True Church. God is in control and we need to trust Him and remain faithful to Scriptural Truths.
I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past.
Kinda like THE GOVERNMENT....declining fast.
I haven t noticed very many of any comments about prayer. I sure that leaders have spent many hours in praying in addition to.all the decision making, actions . The 2019 General Conference vote in St Louis could still be reaffirmed next year . Impossible? As a reminder, all things are possible with God. Belief/.opinion
In addition the scriptures, another way to know God s will is through prayer to seek.Godvs Guidance before taking a step. Belief/.opinion
Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” - Luke 5:31-32.
Notice and read the repentance part. We all have our separate walks with the Lord Jesus. However, he never said sin at will. He wants to free us from the bondage of sin and walk with him in the spirit. Since the spirit is contrary to the flesh, that is how we get away from the sins of the flesh.
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. “ - Galatians 16-18
There is a long list of works of the flesh, so we are all going through our own battles. Keep the faith. God bless!
I haven't found anywhere in the Bible that tells Christian's to run in fear, give all that God has given you and leave it to the devil!!! Ephesians 6 10-20 "you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm". God's watches over his Word, anyone that changes it, has to deal with God. Our Job is to stand firm!!!!
You mean like Paul's letter which says women should sit down and not try to teach men? Why are you trying to change it?
@@crippenlandrupublishers7895 LOL too funny. They were interrupting the message with questions. Women were not allowed to get an education. So when they become Christians they wanted to know. Men were already taught to sit and just listen....
We had our vote and unfortunately the liberals voted down the disaffiliation. My husband and I are heartbroken but we have now started searching for a new church.
Woke and broke! Great line!
This is exactly what our pastor is feeding her members, tell them it's fine don't worry. I'm getting fired up watching this.
I felt revival fire watching these 6 videos as part of my devotional time. I have no regrets about leaving the umc. I only attended a UMC from 2016 to 2020 when covid shut everybody down. I was disgusted by a lot of things I was seeing and hearing in my umc. as well as what I was not hearing. I started feeling spiritually numb. I wasn't growing. When you're not growing you're dying. I began attending a spirit filled Wesleyan church that did not close its doors during covid. We are running 3 services per Sunday. We've had at least 24 baptism a year since covid hit. Lots of small groups that meet face to face and virtually. We host 4 run 5 feed 5 events per year to deliver groceries to families of kids on free lunch. We sent a team to the czhekoslavakia republic to plant a church this summer. I watched the disaffiliation sermon the pastor preached at woodland Methodist church last night. I felt revival in that church as well. There's a lot to pray about. What a testimony we will have on the other side of Jordan. Exile isn't so bad. 40 days in the wilderness gives us time alone with God. We 've been made more than conquerors.
Thank you for your presentations. Extremely enlightening. I have one question, and perhabs it has already been asked, why are the Traditionalist the ones that are leaving the UMC?
Because of how the UMC is organized, we have no ability to hold bishops accountable when they teach and promote views contrary to what the UMC says it believes. Our clergy is becoming more and more liberal, and we have concluded we cannot stop the progressive take-over. So, we need to start something new. Shouldn't be this way, but, sadly, it is.
The way I understand this, churches in SC have no way to exit right now.
You will need a good attorney. The state trust laws in SC favor the local church not the annual conference.
As an outsider to the Methodist Church this is very interesting. I hope the conservatives won't act like a bunch of victims and just let the progressive, bully them around. I hope they will fight. What many conservative don't realize is that the UMC is that they have an advantage. they can just quit. you don't have to support it. the Progressives don't have the money to support the infrastructure. sure you my leave them with the building and watch them struggle financially. Then buy it from them when you can get a better deal
Your reference to Bishop Minerva C. re her statement of "when will the African delegates grow-up; they have have 200 years to do that and get it right." That is simply beyond the pale, and unbelievable - coming from an bishop. How did someone like that gain that level of position and yet be so judgmental? It is incongruent with Christianity. And demeans, as you pointed out, a whole continent. The church apparently has no checks and balances. But then , that is not a good direction to go either.
Great question, David. Progressives are very accepting until you have opinions that are different than theirs.
Hierarchical church polity. Methodists should have adopted a presbyterian form of government. Like what the United States was modelled after.
Here is Pastor Cliff Demczuk well written response to the accusation toward traditionalists that it is a one issue reason for their departure: "The perception that the issues of the UMC causing the schism are strictly about homosexuality is a false one. The UMC has allowed bishops and other leadership to be filled with those who do not even accept the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Resurrection, or the Holy Trinity. If the UMC cannot adhere to these basic principals of faith it is time to divide. Do not try oversimplifying the issue. Your approach to interpretation of the Bible is simply creating your own deity based upon your feelings. In my book that is called idolatry. As for your statement that "God and nature made them that way" - I suggest you introduce yourself to Romans Chapter 1:24-30."
Read the whole book of Romans. Pay close attention to 2:1 and 3:21… You might see that you your self are on the list of sinners who are getting it wrong.
@edmundp5318 I have the Holy Spirit to give me discernment. The words I shared are a direct quote and not my own. However, I stand by them, and my conscience is clear.
Simple test: FOLLOW THE $$$$😉
Yes. Funding clergy pensions and paying salaries for bloated denominational administration is costly. The progressive theology brings no true life that will grow the church organically by which God’s presence and blessing will come. Separated from the True Vine, it will die and already is dead, money notwithstanding.
Rev Adam Hamilton, not Smith
Pastor ,UMC, in Kansas City, MO
Okay
After hearing these videos , it seems that some reasons for Traditionalists to. want to leave.the UMC. are the very things that will. happen to what Congregations are being left.
I'm not in disagreement Rob (and I'm not a practicing UMC member so I am external go this), but I disagree with the logic of separation to begin with. Conservatives had the majority internationally and could have dictated the direction of the church going forward. After all, liberal churches are universally declining rapidly while the more conservatives churches haven't faced such a precipitous collapse. The landscape would have only been more favorable in a few decades and all of the assets and cultural heritage of the UMC would have been yours in a few decades.
This video.hss given a wrong impression of The UMC as many Congregations in this Country are not splitting , and shocked and are not aware of any splitting of the church , which includes. , a lifetime member of The UMC , in a good. thriving Congregation. To leave the.Traditional. UMC to an uncertain.future is disturbing .
General.Confdtence
Why would anyone want to be associated with ANY Methodist church after this big hoodwink? I understand that there are pensions and benefits that are steering pastors to GMC selfishly. People, God has shut the door on the UMC and is time to separate from the denomination altogether
You folks need to go join the Southern Baptist, oh wait they don't allow women clergy.
You could would fit in anyway maybe they would change for you.
1 problem I see is Man putting his opinion on scripture to suit his feelings.
If homosexuality was such an issue why didn't Jesus preach against it.
I don't give authority to how Peter, Paul ,or another mortal man feels.
Plenty of verses in the bible explaining God’s views on homosexuality. Time to leave Babylon and come back to the truth of God’s word.
So no one is honorable except you? You certainly found your enemy in this video. As for me, I will stay with a church that allows and encourages me to think, to explore, and to engage with those with whom I disagree. I will not don the straitjacket of the GMC.☹
What in the world is wrong with a conscience clause allowing UMC ministers to opt out of marrying gay couples if they’re opposed, and also allied with a different view of sexual orientation to marry them?
In the Anglican Church, we’ve done that over women clergy…those opposed have their own visiting bishops & can refuse a female priest.
There is an authentic and sincerely difference on this issue,and since it’s not a fundamental tenet of the faith like the trinity or Christ as the only way to salvation-have some grace and disagree in love!
Rightly or wrongly, we believe the Bible states that homosexual relations are contrary to God's will, even sinful. We can't stay in a church that promotes what we believe is sinful even if we don't have to engage in it. And the deeper issues in videos two and three are even more important.
@@robrenfroe8083 But why be so staunch on THIS issue,whilst-along with many evangelicals-condoning remarriage of divorcees,which Jesus very clearly states is an act of adultery(being one of the Ten Commandments,a sin of more gravity)?
This is and has been a slippery slope. It never ends where it begins. It is much like the old adage “give an inch and they take a mile”. For me, the most important question is “What honors God?” We know His word is our guide and it is clear in both testaments. Consequently, it is clear… we must love others, but not countenance sin. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery… “Neither do I condemn you, but go and sin no more.” (John 8:11) The same is true for those practicing homosexuality.
@@keithrogers4170 not sure of your question. I speak much more passionately about the more important issues that divide us -- our different understandings of Scripture and the person and work of Jesus. Those are the real issues and those are more than sufficient to part company over. Of course we don't grade sins as which are more egregious, so as awful as adultery is, it's not of more gravity in terms of righteous and guilt than others. Is your argument really, the Bible condemns divorce and remarriage but we don't follow that so we should look the other way where it condemns same sex behavior? If we are unfaithful to the Bible in one area, we should feel free to diso ey it in another area? Doesn't seem like a good take. We may very well take divorce too lightly. But we hold classes before marriage to prevent it. We counsel couples in trouble to avoid it. We have courses afterwards so people can learn from their mistakes and grow and not become divorced again. And most divorced persons will confess some failure and guilt. No one ever says: I was born to be divorced. It's the way I'm oriented and I'll do it over and over -- so bless and celebrate my life choices. There's a world of difference in how we treat the two. But we love all. You might want to look at Richard Hays book on the moral vision of the NT where he talks about the two and believes remarriage is in keeping with the teachings of Jesus but the practice of homosexuality is not. I assume you know who he is and his most impressive credentials, having been a chaired professor at Duke.
@@robrenfroe8083 Yes do you see some evangelicals have reinterpreted the NT to condone divorce/re-marriage in wider contexts.I have no issue with that.Theologians do interpret scripture differently.
My point is simply that evangelicals feel free to allow a difference of interpretation/exegesis on issues like this(where Jesus was unequivocal)-due to wider issues of hermeneutics,historical context and a humane concern for both parties-but not with the gay issue -which is totally hypocritical.
There are different ways of exegeting the bible regarding this subject and venerable theologians do disagree.
That’s why my view is that there is room for two integrities,based on conscience and sincerely held beliefs.
Of course not all sin is the same.and there are graver sins.
The fact that a)adultery is in the Ten Commandments and b) Jesus explicitly addresses it -neither of which is the case over homosexuality,simply exposes the double standards & cruel prejudice of some conservative chrustjans.
Adultery is a behaviour and not an innate orientation.Being gay is not a behaviour but an innate,unchangeable part of a person.
Come out from them
Better deal? Better position? Fair Deal? so here we are, no matter what we say we're arguing about-we are talking about money. all the previous talk of Scripture and Jesus is cheapened by this video's emphasis on money. The phrase @12:55 Woke and Broke is most unfortunate. To refer to a church's affluence as ammunition in this discussion undermines all other points.
It's the most immediate reality. It's not pretty. It's not spiritual. But the loss of money and buildings is the first thing that will destroy many local churches. They will have to shut down the minute they leave the UMC. It's crass but it's reality.
Bart Ehrman
The Catholic Church is the true church started by Jesus. Maybe it’s time for everyone to come back to the true church.
If everyone is to come back to the One True Church then they should be returning to Orthodoxy. You can’t really believe that a Bishop that puts idols on a consecrated alter is the leader of the entire Body of Christ. In truth the first Protestants are the Roman Catholics.
😏
the Bible is the Word of God and to deny this, is the death of a church. Jesus said " your sins are forgiven go and sin no more"....the UMC now says " the Bible is not the Word of God, so sin all you want". .
All things are possible with God
Go work, go broke!
Come out of the world
You are the fire out of the frying pan!! You are not going to be any better but worst. You are the Devel dividing and conquering. Taking us from a bad situation to hell. We are better to worship on our own.
There is NO hell, NO heaven, NO judgment, NO god, NO satan!! Methodism is disgusting superstition and lies. It is a screaming excuse for HATE! Nothing more!
Yes please, leave. Evolve as God desired and designed you to, or leave.
The way I understand this, churches in SC that wish to disaffiliate have no way out right now.
I'm a new UMC pastor, coming to the UMC from another denomination. Sorry, but, the more I hear this guy, the less I want to follow him or those who cast such a whiny, one-sided, bitter approach to life and to the Church. If you and your approach are the option -- I'm staying with the UMC....
Yep. Just more division. I'm wary of people who accuse people of being "woke". Never a good sign.
I would never dismiss a problem or difficulty just because of the type of spokesman. Get ahead of his voice or gestures, whatever, and listen to what he’s saying. There is a great difference with many points between the two Methodist churches. Having been a Methodist since I was a child, and visiting other churches, as well as my childhood church, in the past 20+ years, I can discern the difference between them and will stay with the Weslayian and original beliefs of the Methodist Church, which is basic Christianity that hasn’t been changed by some modern men.
@@carolkoser7020 Your approach is solid. Best to you.
One alternative is to drop the word United , and reorganize back.to.being Methodists .
It's time for the UMC to split into the Traditional UMC and the Apostate UMC.
# you have with you the law. I find no fault with the LGBT whatsoever. Your turn
🙃 Jesus cursed the Fig tree that couldn't bear fruit. Maybe Calvin was Right! 🤔
You can be LGBT and Christian 👬
You need to read your Bible and see what God said about homisexuality. They will not inherit the kingdom of God. The Bible also teaches "even in the last days the righteous will be decieved". I pray the Holy Spirit will draw the people falling for this lie to repentance and a true relationship with Jesus.
@Jan Sixlie I wonder if your sins also exclude you from being a Christian.
You can be both. God's love and Jesus say their love is for all. The life they show in their love of Christ and all people is true. They day you believe God's love and grace is selective then you have lost sight of the idea that Jesus died for all of us and our sins not just select people.
@Jan Sixlie show me where in the bible it says Gods love has any conditions? His word is love all. If you say you can't love anyone different than you then you are breaking his greatest word of love your neighbor as you Love yourself. And love others as much as you love yourself.
@Jan Sixlie I do by showing love and compassion to all. Last time I checked that's what Jesus did. Wether I agree with ones actions or life choices. It's not place to judge that is for higher to choose. So I suggest you think about that and please don't judge me or anyone else.