Tactical Workshop stopping an aggressive opponent Part 2 the stop hit

Instructors Andy Herbener and Caleb Thrasher explain how to stop an aggressive opponent in part 2 of their video series, going over the "stop hit."

[@marshallyaklin]

I don't know if this is aimed at classical fencers who are fencing in electric tournaments or what. But considering the fact that a large portion of modern foil is based upon the marching attack, this 'solution' to it is massively simplistic. I understand that there's 'shade' being thrown at flicking and marching with modern right of way - like it or not, at a tournament stepping in like that against any decent fencer will get you hit. A decent fencer will march with the arm back and be able to hit in multiple different lines easily. When you gave the example that stepping in made the attacking fencer hit flat, you neglect the fact that flick shortens the distance to hit. I'm no elite fencer but I know that as long as I don't stop and pull my hand I have a third of a second to finish my attack. I could land the cross body chest flick that 'went passe', I could disengage under the counter and hit the flank all the way from your 8 to behind your weapon shoulder.
Here's a gif of a really elite fencer (Alex Massialas) landing the exact touch you're claiming that a stop hit defeats. And this isn't exceptional - trying to counter attack or do a stop hit is exactly what someone marching wants. i.imgur.com/bzFsioQ.gifv

[@TheHive95]

You are obviously able to build on these tactics, it's presented as simplistic, because it's the second video in a introductory set of videos..
On the video you posted, the Chinese fencer tried to do the exact thing mentioned in this video. In a world cup. It failed in this case, but the very fact that the Chinese fencer tried to used it, shows it's a very valid tactic and will work in some scenarios.

[@lordihlendam3619]

@@TheHive95 The way I was taught to handle absence of blade attacks (marching attacks, if you want) is to constantly throw feints as you retreat. You never want to actually throw a stop thrust at engagement distance, because any decent fencer can finish from the absence of blade position. By threatening him, you basically get him to either screw up his distance (at which point a stop thrust will work) or throw his final action early, which you can then parry and gain right of way. Alternately, you can change your guard so that he throws his final action in a predictable place -- which you then parry (though this is a lot riskier, since he tends to be much closer than with a conventional attack).

[@inscrutablemungus4143]

I dunno what sort of fencers you compete against, but this isn't going to work against anyone half-decent. For one thing, the marching fencer is at a distance in your drill where pretty much anyone can finish with a beat attack. He's so close that I'd say he can break through a parry 9 times out of 10. The whole point of the march is that you apply pressure on the defender to such an extent that they crack and naively counter. At that point, you pick a line and finish within the lockout.
Also, the idea that the marching fencer can't finish that close is absurd. Forget flicks, even relatively new fencers can angulate their wrists and finish around the counter.
Having said that, counters are one element of dealing with a march (just not they way it's done in this video). The correct way to deal with a march to be unpredictable and constantly threaten to crunch distance or set up an attack into prep. If the attacker messes up and gets too close, crunch distance and counter while locking him out (preferably with an evasion). If the attacker allows the distance to open up, step lunge and attack into prep. Finally, and this is the hardest situation, if the attacker's distance is good and they're waiting for you to crack, set up a counter-time action where you fake counter to draw out their attack early.
Even if you do the above, the marcher will hit fairly often. If everyone uses a technique, even against highly rated fencers, it's got to be effective. But, if you remain mobile and respond correctly to the march, your opponent will get unsure about the right distance/timing and is more likely to make mistakes. They'll only hit 30% of the time instead of all the time.

[@DaidsHole]

After watching this, beyond the way that you rule out easy prime hits and (disclaimer fuzzy camera) don't appear to actually be flick hitting, you forget that the attacker has priority ( While I prefer the oldfashioned style where that doesn't count as threatening the target, it would be interpreted that way by refs today) and could easily change line or use prime unless you get away fast or dramatically change your position, even the drop to crouch stophit has limited use because of the easy of hit to the back if they have any time to adjust or have seen you do it before.
I am a proponent of the stop hit but Caleb would be lucky to score one or two points in the entire video if there was any strong intent to hit by Andy. I like the shortening of distance idea but the way was executed left Andy with easy hits.
I suspect that you mostly fence steam which I suppose might explain how short you seem to feel the lockout is which results in optimistic idea that that the stop hitter would get those point when really they would get hit if they didn't get out fast.
For context I'm cadet age group UK fencer at Salle Oxon, on my good days I've beaten someone who fenced at commonwealths and regularly fence age group internationals at the club.

[@DaidsHole]

Also what with the positioning of those flick hits? I don't see advantage of aiming for low belly or backshoulder when back chest is available with that hit and sword shoulder easily available in the most common line for flick hits

[@chantalgabi6101]

Do you have right-of-way at 4:50- 5:03?? I'm confused, Andy made the first move right?

[@grovecityfencing3431]

According to tournament right-of-way rules, Andy would have the right of way. But, Caleb stepped in before Andy's tip dropped. Andy slapped Caleb which is not considered a point in foil.
Caleb was able to do that because Andy's motion was so big. It created space for Caleb to fit inside and strike.
Thanks for watching and commenting! Sorry for the late reply.