OK... I'm a long-retired dealer, and my store did quite a few W113s in the late-1980s to early 1990s. You know, back when the cars were not too expensive and not yet completely rotten. I've kept up, long after I retired, and it seems to me that the mechanical parts are still doable, if not so easily so as 30 years ago. But these cars RUST, and corrosion repair can easiy double the cost of a refurbishment...to the point where you spend more money on the car than it will be worth in the foreesable future. They are not alone in this category. I have a beautiful 6.3 in mint condition, and it's the fourth one I've owned...and I know they've really appreciated. BUT, the 6.3 is a nightmare to restore and some of the parts (think "injection pump") are simply not available. It's a cautionary tale for any owner of a older Mercedes. Just as an aside, I wonder what happened to the 250SL that a customer brought to us with a blown engine. Beautiful car, 35K miles in 1990, cosmeticaly perfect...and he had found a wrecked 280C with a perefect engine/drivetrain. We did the swap, upgraded the cooling and brakes, rebuilt the transmission, and the car ran like a top...after we had our body shop make a hood scoop to clear the cam boxes. Looked great and was a bit faster than original, and the only such swap I've ever heard of. Mind you, it wasn't a drop-in, but my shop had several ex-racing mechanics, and to them this was chilld's play. Addendum: This economic reality is the reason we QUIT doing restoration work...except for my lightweight Gullwing. And I didn't give a damn what that cost! Love your videos!
Let those who can pay. Pay, all else tell them the potential cost of the project and advise them of better options in the Mercedes line up. You are not expected to die on the halloth cross of Mercedes, you are needed for lot's of other things as well, taking care of your family and employees, and to do that you must balance your business and make it work. So don't get depressed on stuff you can't honestly do, focus on what you can do. Best wishes to you from Ireland, love the videos and keep them coming.
As you know my father-in-law was a 40-year certified MB tech and shop foreman at the San Antonio dealership. He HATED working on W113’s because they were so difficult to get access to almost everything.
I agree about the non-chargeable labor hours "problem" we face as mechanics trying to get everything PERFECT! (I am the same way as well for the most part). I have a couple clients that are understanding of this situation, and will tolerate the cost, but the vast majority will NOT. They will moan and complain, and for good reason. It's usually best to just avoid it, and like you, i end up eating the cost to "adjust" or "calibrate" things so that they are as good as they can be. I don't really know what else can be done about it either. Its just the nature of these cars.
I often wonder how Hemmels sells W113s for the prices they ask for. How many customers are there for a Hemmels W113? These cars were built up from scratch but how much of the rebuild is smoke & mirrors? How many rich people really know what they're buying? You are doing God's work. I bow.
My experience has been that all restored cars give plenty of trouble down the road, even from the best shops. You have to keep chasing down problems until the car gets sorted. More often than not the car just gets sold. There is a reason there are a lot of bright shiny restored cars with low miles at all the car auctions!
So many classic Mercedes have become Museum pieces largely due to the scarcity of parts and QUALIFIED technicians such as yourself Pierre. I drove a 280 SE 4.5 in the mid-1980's and it was beautiful. Today, you almost can't risk have something go wrong. We used to drive 300-400 miles at a time.
A&P mechanic here. Do not let someone who did not know what they were getting into sway you. Stick to your standards. If they can't afford, it who needs them as a customer anyway?
Sometimes one has to come to a conclusion and and have their clients agree to a contract that there are difficulties as you describe that come up and notifying the client when these things occur and get their consent before carrying out your adjustments and subletting gages and such. Not to mention the time the vehicle is consuming in your shop. Limiting liability for you and enhancing your relationships and clients expectations makes for a happy technician. Wishing you well and really appreciate your insights and expertise thanks!
As a 230sl owner for 40 years who does most of his own work, but goes to specialists for things like transmission rebuilds, Just charge the hours you spend. Economics will work its magic and less 113 owners will ask you to do their tasks due to the higher costs.
to drive such a sheer elegantly beautiful and exclusive classic makes it all worthwhile, but then I like doing my own mechanics, I must admit, it does take a lot of time.
I work with another fellow. We don't work on cars but we do primarily repair work. We are consistently asked "for a price" on a job ( like I mentioned, we do mostly repair work). What people cannot seem to understand is that there is no way to tell what lies under the surface of what we are asked to repair. Mostly, it's a can of worms. We've pretty much gone to a time and materials rate. One can turn chicken sh!t into chicken salad but it costs money. No one wants to work for free.
Gulp😱 Wow, that was deep but I guess you needed to express that, and I am OK with that. My local shop pulled me into the shop when I was outside admiring one of these. "You don't want it...the radiator replacement is $12,000" I have wanted a 113 for the longest time, but realize now the time for that is gone...at least for me. I am satisfied with "visiting them" or riding in one. They are a design icon to me. I am ok with a 560SL.
Any car is expensive to restore in 2024 if we are talking about a complete restoration and you are doing it correctly, 9/10 more than the value of the finished product.
I enjoy the show even if I'm not a Mercedes guy, altough it grows on me... I am restoring a '81 BMW 745i It is a manual 5 speed, slicktop. Not the best cars, not the worst. This is the car BMW created to declare war onto Mercedes 👹
So for a fully restored w113 from Brabus, Mercedes Classic or Hemmels you will pay $300-$400,000.. You cannot afford to give away your time to fix one properly. Thanks for your insight and passion.
I don't get why don't charge? Other shops are doing this. You need to be honest with the costumer's and tell them to either pay it for elsewhere. Great video.. you need a haircut.
Hi Pierre I have a question please I have a mercedes 250s w108 1968 have no engine can put engine on for Mercedes-Benz w124 e300 1992 you think will fit Or I have to put transmission and engine together and take the old transmission out. Thank you Pierre..
Hi Pierre, how you are doig fine, i´m a MBZ lover, I just started to follow you channel, so recently I bought a W201 190D 2.5 manual , for a restoration, located in Costa Rica country, looking for the best MBZ parts providers you can give me and tips too ,,,,
Pierre, seems to me there aren't many master Mercedes technicians that are readily available, therefore you should charge for your expertise otherwise you cannot run a free hours (labor) and expect to pay the bills balance the books.
No one, NO ONE else works for free, you shouldn’t have to either. You go to the orthodontist and he tells you that you DONT need a root canal, you still get charged for the time they spent. Auto techs have been getting ripped off for years BC of time and rate. We know the manufacturer maybe time studied the removal of the door window mechanism, after the tech did it three or four times they came up with the number they were willing to pay. A dis service to the whole labor group. Swiss mechanics have it best, when I was there they were paid for thinking about the problem before they even got up to put their hand on the automobile.
Most of the 4-door cars were carbureted. Worst case scenario, you just bolt on a suitable new Weber, case closed. The mechanical injection is a completely different matter...as are things like the instruments and the top mechanism and the doors and windows. If they were just smaller versions of the sedans, they would not be worth very much, and nobody'd bother refurbishing one.
@@rustyturner431how about a diesel one ? Your experience with them ? Supposed to be minimal maintenance, given properly maintained and no rust . Thank you
Ok, the 2-door (as you mention it) is an SL. There are W111 coupes/cabriolets with 2 doors as well. Never the less, the SL (113 chassies in this case) and the 300 SEL 2,8 had different camshaft and valve springs to get more hp to theese two models. NOT the same as any other 280SE 4-door saloon!
Most 113 owners are a PITA to deal with (even talking to), so just charge them what is fair. They are rich and perfect anyways. They shouldn’t have any issue to pay.
@@houmandehdashtidmd9078 Only important thing is to make sure you don't get a rusty one. I own a rare (for the USA) w/ manual 4spd 5 cylinder 300d fabric interior and a 240d 4 cyl common 240d with manual 4spd. Not much goes wrong for hundreds of thousands of miles at a time. Vacuum system has a tiny leak but with MT it only makes the locks slow. With auto it would mess with reliablility of shifting
Obviously, you haven't spent your life dealing with "rich" people. I did until I retired, and they are some of the cheapest, orneriest people alive when it comes to spending their money.
@@rustyturner431probably why they are rich. But in response to Mike, my father purchased a 1968 280SL, 15 years ago for a great price! In good to great condition. We aren’t rich, but upper middle class. Our issue is finding somebody to work on the car. The one European independent shop in town, closed. Which is also the same shop where my father purchased the car. I’m sure Pierre receives cars from all over the US, but the transportation costs to get it there and back, just makes an expensive repair/repairs, even more expensive.
@@rustyturner431 I do construction and remodeling for rich people and they never argue with me they pay and pay, I don't know what kind of rich people you deal with
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Damn Pierre . Suddenly I’m not in the market for one ! Thank you.
OK... I'm a long-retired dealer, and my store did quite a few W113s in the late-1980s to early 1990s. You know, back when the cars were not too expensive and not yet completely rotten. I've kept up, long after I retired, and it seems to me that the mechanical parts are still doable, if not so easily so as 30 years ago. But these cars RUST, and corrosion repair can easiy double the cost of a refurbishment...to the point where you spend more money on the car than it will be worth in the foreesable future. They are not alone in this category. I have a beautiful 6.3 in mint condition, and it's the fourth one I've owned...and I know they've really appreciated. BUT, the 6.3 is a nightmare to restore and some of the parts (think "injection pump") are simply not available. It's a cautionary tale for any owner of a older Mercedes.
Just as an aside, I wonder what happened to the 250SL that a customer brought to us with a blown engine. Beautiful car, 35K miles in 1990, cosmeticaly perfect...and he had found a wrecked 280C with a perefect engine/drivetrain. We did the swap, upgraded the cooling and brakes, rebuilt the transmission, and the car ran like a top...after we had our body shop make a hood scoop to clear the cam boxes. Looked great and was a bit faster than original, and the only such swap I've ever heard of. Mind you, it wasn't a drop-in, but my shop had several ex-racing mechanics, and to them this was chilld's play.
Addendum: This economic reality is the reason we QUIT doing restoration work...except for my lightweight Gullwing. And I didn't give a damn what that cost! Love your videos!
Let those who can pay. Pay, all else tell them the potential cost of the project and advise them of better options in the Mercedes line up. You are not expected to die on the halloth cross of Mercedes, you are needed for lot's of other things as well, taking care of your family and employees, and to do that you must balance your business and make it work. So don't get depressed on stuff you can't honestly do, focus on what you can do. Best wishes to you from Ireland, love the videos and keep them coming.
As you know my father-in-law was a 40-year certified MB tech and shop foreman at the San Antonio dealership. He HATED working on W113’s because they were so difficult to get access to almost everything.
I agree about the non-chargeable labor hours "problem" we face as mechanics trying to get everything PERFECT! (I am the same way as well for the most part). I have a couple clients that are understanding of this situation, and will tolerate the cost, but the vast majority will NOT. They will moan and complain, and for good reason. It's usually best to just avoid it, and like you, i end up eating the cost to "adjust" or "calibrate" things so that they are as good as they can be. I don't really know what else can be done about it either. Its just the nature of these cars.
We appreciate the truth.
I often wonder how Hemmels sells W113s for the prices they ask for. How many customers are there for a Hemmels W113? These cars were built up from scratch but how much of the rebuild is smoke & mirrors? How many rich people really know what they're buying? You are doing God's work. I bow.
My experience has been that all restored cars give plenty of trouble down the road, even from the best shops. You have to keep chasing down problems until the car gets sorted. More often than not the car just gets sold. There is a reason there are a lot of bright shiny restored cars with low miles at all the car auctions!
So many classic Mercedes have become Museum pieces largely due to the scarcity of parts and QUALIFIED technicians such as yourself Pierre. I drove a 280 SE 4.5 in the mid-1980's and it was beautiful. Today, you almost can't risk have something go wrong. We used to drive 300-400 miles at a time.
Parts were available back then. Not so today. It's hard to remind ourselves how long ago the '80s really were!
I used to want one.
A&P mechanic here. Do not let someone who did not know what they were getting into sway you. Stick to your standards. If they can't afford, it who needs them as a customer anyway?
Sometimes one has to come to a conclusion and and have their clients agree to a contract that there are difficulties as you describe that come up and notifying the client when these things occur and get their consent before carrying out your adjustments and subletting gages and such. Not to mention the time the vehicle is consuming in your shop. Limiting liability for you and enhancing your relationships and clients expectations makes for a happy technician. Wishing you well and really appreciate your insights and expertise thanks!
As a 230sl owner for 40 years who does most of his own work, but goes to specialists for things like transmission rebuilds, Just charge the hours you spend. Economics will work its magic and less 113 owners will ask you to do their tasks due to the higher costs.
to drive such a sheer elegantly beautiful and exclusive classic makes it all worthwhile, but then I like doing my own mechanics, I must admit, it does take a lot of time.
I work with another fellow. We don't work on cars but we do primarily repair work. We are consistently asked "for a price" on a job ( like I mentioned, we do mostly repair work). What people cannot seem to understand is that there is no way to tell what lies under the surface of what we are asked to repair. Mostly, it's a can of worms. We've pretty much gone to a time and materials rate.
One can turn chicken sh!t into chicken salad but it costs money. No one wants to work for free.
Gulp😱 Wow, that was deep but I guess you needed to express that, and I am OK with that. My local shop pulled me into the shop when I was outside admiring one of these. "You don't want it...the radiator replacement is $12,000" I have wanted a 113 for the longest time, but realize now the time for that is gone...at least for me. I am satisfied with "visiting them" or riding in one. They are a design icon to me. I am ok with a 560SL.
Any car is expensive to restore in 2024 if we are talking about a complete restoration and you are doing it correctly, 9/10 more than the value of the finished product.
I enjoy the show even if I'm not a
Mercedes guy, altough it grows on
me... I am restoring a '81 BMW 745i
It is a manual 5 speed, slicktop.
Not the best cars, not the worst.
This is the car BMW created to
declare war onto Mercedes 👹
Don’t forget the 250Sl. The red headed step child with the most reliable engine of the 113’s
So for a fully restored w113 from Brabus, Mercedes Classic or Hemmels you will pay $300-$400,000.. You cannot afford to give away your time to fix one properly. Thanks for your insight and passion.
This was one of the reasons I went with a R107 for my weekly driver project car. It is fully sorted for about $10k over 6 years
What year?
1985 380sl USA with low mileage German spec m117 swapped in from a 500SEC. Rechromed 72 bumpers, etc.
I don't get why don't charge? Other shops are doing this. You need to be honest with the costumer's and tell them to either pay it for elsewhere. Great video.. you need a haircut.
Totally agree with this statement, including the need for a haircut.
Well said
I haven’t seen my 68 280 sl 4 speed in 3.5 years never even have driven it and have no idea when I’m getting it back .
Gernold located in Maine is the 113 dude.
Hi Pierre I have a question please
I have a mercedes 250s w108 1968 have no engine can put engine on for Mercedes-Benz w124 e300 1992 you think will fit
Or I have to put transmission and engine together and take the old transmission out.
Thank you Pierre..
Hi Pierre, how you are doig fine, i´m a MBZ lover, I just started to follow you channel, so recently I bought a W201 190D 2.5 manual , for a restoration, located in Costa Rica country, looking for the best MBZ parts providers you can give me and tips too ,,,,
Pierre, seems to me there aren't many master Mercedes technicians that are readily available, therefore you should charge for your expertise otherwise you cannot run a free hours (labor) and expect to pay the bills balance the books.
You're making me think that even if i win the lottery; a 113 from Brabus or the like might not be a good deal.
No one, NO ONE else works for free, you shouldn’t have to either. You go to the orthodontist and he tells you that you DONT need a root canal, you still get charged for the time they spent. Auto techs have been getting ripped off for years BC of time and rate. We know the manufacturer maybe time studied the removal of the door window mechanism, after the tech did it three or four times they came up with the number they were willing to pay. A dis service to the whole labor group. Swiss mechanics have it best, when I was there they were paid for thinking about the problem before they even got up to put their hand on the automobile.
Endodontist
@@edkalsbeek1765 yeah he’s a problem too.
Let them get a restored one at Mechatronik for 400000 K
113 is same mechanically then a 4 doors , so engine transmission / suspension repair is same . Only 2 doors .
Most of the 4-door cars were carbureted. Worst case scenario, you just bolt on a suitable new Weber, case closed. The mechanical injection is a completely different matter...as are things like the instruments and the top mechanism and the doors and windows. If they were just smaller versions of the sedans, they would not be worth very much, and nobody'd bother refurbishing one.
@@rustyturner431how about a diesel one ? Your experience with them ? Supposed to be minimal maintenance, given properly maintained and no rust . Thank you
Ok, the 2-door (as you mention it) is an SL. There are W111 coupes/cabriolets with 2 doors as well. Never the less, the SL (113 chassies in this case) and the 300 SEL 2,8 had different camshaft and valve springs to get more hp to theese two models. NOT the same as any other 280SE 4-door saloon!
I guess if you own one put in the garage and let it gather dust. All but simple restoration these days is untouchable
Most 113 owners are a PITA to deal with (even talking to), so just charge them what is fair. They are rich and perfect anyways. They shouldn’t have any issue to pay.
You REALLY don't know the solution to this quandary?
oh wow - lets stick to w123
If you own one , the maintenance and upkeep is true what they say? Very minimal?
Thanks
@@houmandehdashtidmd9078 Only important thing is to make sure you don't get a rusty one. I own a rare (for the USA) w/ manual 4spd 5 cylinder 300d fabric interior and a 240d 4 cyl common 240d with manual 4spd. Not much goes wrong for hundreds of thousands of miles at a time. Vacuum system has a tiny leak but with MT it only makes the locks slow. With auto it would mess with reliablility of shifting
I wanna agree with you, but who do you think buys the W113. RICH PEOPLE, people with open check books. People that money is not an issue
Obviously, you haven't spent your life dealing with "rich" people. I did until I retired, and they are some of the cheapest, orneriest people alive when it comes to spending their money.
@@rustyturner431probably why they are rich. But in response to Mike, my father purchased a 1968 280SL, 15 years ago for a great price! In good to great condition. We aren’t rich, but upper middle class. Our issue is finding somebody to work on the car. The one European independent shop in town, closed. Which is also the same shop where my father purchased the car. I’m sure Pierre receives cars from all over the US, but the transportation costs to get it there and back, just makes an expensive repair/repairs, even more expensive.
@@rustyturner431 I do construction and remodeling for rich people and they never argue with me they pay and pay, I don't know what kind of rich people you deal with
@@Sardalani7 the key word is 15 years ago. When they were cheap
@@rustyturner431 Aint that the truth.
Dont take in w113s.
So, no.
Never liked the w113.. too small and feel more feminine cars unlike the rest of the sl chassis...
For a while , I was looking for one . Then when I actually get close to one , I totally agree .