In my family of origin, I was the older of two. I was NEVER allowed to express anger or aggression. My two-years'-younger brother was given free reign. He broke windows, toys, my possessions, physically attacked me, was never constrained by my parents. He grew up to become a person who committed homicide while intoxicated, and spent almost 30 years in prison. I, on the other hand, have a vicious tongue and know how to use it like a laser-sword!
I grew up in a home (as did my husband) where if my brother was picked on he was considered a "wuss" because he didn't get angry enough to hit back and was encouraged to get angry and retaliate. I however was punished for finally lashing out angrily at an elementary peer after being bullied by her. I never hit her or became violent but instead VERY angrily expressed my opinion of her and consequently was punished, in a violent way to boot! And if I got angry at a friend that would usually be the end of the friendship. My theory on this was that because girls are typically not allowed to be angry they become passive aggressive and catty as a way to "fight back" so to speak. I love the podcasts the 3 of you do! Thank you so much for bringing these ideas to a bigger audience and talking about them in a way that can be understood by most if not all! 🙏
To me, anger is a secondary emotion. It’s either not getting what I want or need or a boundary violation. I’m dealing with shadow anger right now. Anger is like any emotion…it’s a flag to go deeper.
Thank you, Joseph, for your viewpoints in this discussion. As a man who lived through an extremely abusive relationship with an intensely angry woman, I felt a weight lift off my shoulders. The societal incredulity and disbelief of my friends has constituted a significant burden pressing down on me.
Great conversation. I wish that in this conversation (which we all have) we could spend less time dividing feelings and responses into men's and women's and spend more time exploring the great variety of ways anger can be expressed and worked with.
The way I see it men should leave women alone, and women should leave men alone, in terms of judging each other. The fact is men don't understand women because they are not women, and women do not understand men because they are not men, so wouldn't it be easier just to leave each other alone, to "accept the mystery" instead of trying to figure out each other and judge according to some theory?
I can understand this. Sometimes one will not see the rational or reasoning of the other and it's best to just agree to disagree and let it go. Too much energy can be used to convince the other and in the end cause more harm than good. Let it go, carry on.
32:21 with enough self-inquiry the correct obstacle of the anger can be identified and addressed (and be relieved); finding the right place for the anger to land can alleviate the feeling of shame and help one to make adaptations or changes (whether within the self or the environment) that help one get traction, move along with forward trajectory in impeded by the obstacle that had initially led to the anger…this requires a period of containment (vs.venting) after the anger has been acknowledged to allow space for self-reflection
Beyond “boys/men” or “girls/women” which as we can see is very subjective, masculine and feminine anger is very different. Masculine anger is direct, fights and forgets, goes to war, etc Feminine anger is indirect, passive-aggressive and stays inside.
Great conversation as always. I just want to add a nuance that is missing and something I’ve seen from my own work as a therapist. For visible minorities from my community there is a narrative of being a “model minority”. Many of the men I now work with experience great shame when they experience anger, as it doesn’t fit with the cultural norms and expectations of presenting as a kind and calm man. Privilege intersects deeply with the narratives around anger which deserves a bit more attention.
I have fostered lots of children boys while they are in limbo regarding the welfare system girls & there is a generally a huge difference in their expression of anger and/or agression. Two different animals. My experience is that boys deal with it almost asa genetic/social right. Its also much easier to deal with boys in that dynamic. Young girls act out & seem to have to be pain-stakingly coddled to get to bottom of it. 😂
I think part of the inner struggle with women is that we are natural nurturers and are expected to be nurturing (including by ourselves), and anger feels like an urge to destroy, which is the opposite of nurturing. So when we get angry, we feel simultaneously both our own judgment and society’s or our family’s judgment that we are being a “bad” woman or a problem. But if we don’t express our anger, there is this feeling like our needs aren’t important, don’t matter, and may never be seen or met by other people. Which leaves us feeling even more anger, and it builds until it blows.
I'm sure it was unintentional, but it seemed that Joseph did not find ground to elaborate on the effect a woman's anger has on a man. I am very interested in this. My father and I took the Spock approach to men's feelings meaning they don't really feel anything but anger. This concept has been damaging.
Anger is very complicated topic, of all common emotions that is perhaps most diffult and overlooked in history of philosophy. And that tells something of how tricky it is! "Anger sweeter than honey" This (more or less accurately quoted) line is from Illiad. And i've studied somewhat of philosophy of anger and i really think this line hits the mark most accurately. It is luring, it is MOST sweet! And i feel they you guys failed to touch this luring aspect of anger. To use Hillman's alchemical ideas, which i think is the best one, anger is sulfuric aspect most magnificent: Extraverted, sticky, yellow, volatile, sweet, masculine. In almost all ways opposite of salt and silver. Why Hillman's alchemy? Because forexample Edinger ignores sulfur completely and even Jung just glances it. They perhaps are terrified by it's extraversion, it's devilish nature, it's amoralism. Many Jungians tend lean into white, to salt and silver, to keep it in bound structure under introverted inspection. And i'm not very sure introversion necessarily is best way to deal with anger. Silver is turned black by sulfur, introverted inspection blackened, albedo reduced back into nigero. Or perhaps that is just what has to happen: It has to lash out against world and let the silver turn pitch black for silver to face it's own limitations, for it's extraverted nature sealed introverted vessel just doesn't cut it. But there are many types of anger: sweet hot, stingy bitter, silvery coolness comes to my mind. Perhaps the silvery coolness is sort of balancing the sulfuric heat, managing to keep it under control. But even there i wonder if extraverted sulfur is still in charge by tricking silver into thinking that it's introversion is in charge. I often find myself thinking that my anger is cool and focused at spesific task, not lashing out uncontrollably, but find myself wondering that is that a sweetness of honey i taste on my lips...
@@thisjungianlife Thanks. I find that post almost too difficult to read for myself, way too long and way too fastly written. i wonder if anyone has any idea what i'm trying to say. :) But yeah, Plato and his kind of philosophers of trancendental ideals in general don't seem to like anger, it's all just bad. One has to remain calm and controlled under all circumstances. Aristotle, who famously pointed at earth while Plato pointed at sky, might be only one of the ancient philosophers who sees something valuable in anger. Which in my mind highlights anger's extraversion: it wants to go to the earth/world instead of heaven. I noticed that i stumbled a bit there. Edinger did mention sulfur amongst with salt and lead as initial conditions, but didn't mention yellowing, Citrinitas, as process after albedo. So Edinger went straight from albedo to rubedo. While Hillman saw that yellowing is sulfuric process in between albedo and rubedo and one has to be aware of it and manage it carefully. Oh well, here i go again...
Her insincere chuckle after he made the most poignant statement this channel has or will ever make at the 28 minute mark made me lose a lot of respect for her.
In my family of origin, I was the older of two. I was NEVER allowed to express anger or aggression. My two-years'-younger brother was given free reign. He broke windows, toys, my possessions, physically attacked me, was never constrained by my parents. He grew up to become a person who committed homicide while intoxicated, and spent almost 30 years in prison. I, on the other hand, have a vicious tongue and know how to use it like a laser-sword!
That’s deep. Words kill too.
I grew up in a home (as did my husband) where if my brother was picked on he was considered a "wuss" because he didn't get angry enough to hit back and was encouraged to get angry and retaliate. I however was punished for finally lashing out angrily at an elementary peer after being bullied by her. I never hit her or became violent but instead VERY angrily expressed my opinion of her and consequently was punished, in a violent way to boot!
And if I got angry at a friend that would usually be the end of the friendship. My theory on this was that because girls are typically not allowed to be angry they become passive aggressive and catty as a way to "fight back" so to speak.
I love the podcasts the 3 of you do! Thank you so much for bringing these ideas to a bigger audience and talking about them in a way that can be understood by most if not all! 🙏
First time listener. Very insightful. I particularly enjoyed the differences in opinions & willingness to be corrected by others ideas
By far my favourite channel - thank you so much for the incredible insights.
Very engaging. Lovely to listen to people who are professional practitioners yet with kind and big hearts. So important to have compassionate being.
The moment the idea maternal rage creates the cycle of abuse drew a laugh from the female therapist was very interesting, if telling.
To me, anger is a secondary emotion. It’s either not getting what I want or need or a boundary violation. I’m dealing with shadow anger right now. Anger is like any emotion…it’s a flag to go deeper.
Thank you, Joseph, for your viewpoints in this discussion. As a man who lived through an extremely abusive relationship with an intensely angry woman, I felt a weight lift off my shoulders. The societal incredulity and disbelief of my friends has constituted a significant burden pressing down on me.
You are very welcome, Geoff.
Anger is a key sign of repression,when ignored it may turn to anxiety
Everywhere around the world is like that.
The feeling of anger is considered as "bad" or "negative" just because of the intensity of it.
I do the cleaning thing to displace anger often 😂
Great conversation. I wish that in this conversation (which we all have) we could spend less time dividing feelings and responses into men's and women's and spend more time exploring the great variety of ways anger can be expressed and worked with.
17:37 double-bind for women when they feel angry…I really resonate with this
Mallard ducks have purple feathers on their backs.
The way I see it men should leave women alone, and women should leave men alone, in terms of judging each other. The fact is men don't understand women because they are not women, and women do not understand men because they are not men, so wouldn't it be easier just to leave each other alone, to "accept the mystery" instead of trying to figure out each other and judge according to some theory?
I can understand this. Sometimes one will not see the rational or reasoning of the other and it's best to just agree to disagree and let it go. Too much energy can be used to convince the other and in the end cause more harm than good. Let it go, carry on.
with you
32:21 with enough self-inquiry the correct obstacle of the anger can be identified and addressed (and be relieved); finding the right place for the anger to land can alleviate the feeling of shame and help one to make adaptations or changes (whether within the self or the environment) that help one get traction, move along with forward trajectory in impeded by the obstacle that had initially led to the anger…this requires a period of containment (vs.venting) after the anger has been acknowledged to allow space for self-reflection
Beyond “boys/men” or “girls/women” which as we can see is very subjective, masculine and feminine anger is very different.
Masculine anger is direct, fights and forgets, goes to war, etc
Feminine anger is indirect, passive-aggressive and stays inside.
So true thanks for the comment.
I can't relate to this at all. Many men iv3 known to be resentful. Brooding and passive aggressive. I've actually known more direct women.
1:49 Well I see your point, but also if someone does something truly messed up to me im just gonna get mad anyways cause thats natural.
36:00
51:10 Brilliant conclusion about hatred and love.
Great conversation as always. I just want to add a nuance that is missing and something I’ve seen from my own work as a therapist. For visible minorities from my community there is a narrative of being a “model minority”. Many of the men I now work with experience great shame when they experience anger, as it doesn’t fit with the cultural norms and expectations of presenting as a kind and calm man. Privilege intersects deeply with the narratives around anger which deserves a bit more attention.
❤
Sooo... I guess I'll start throwing frogs at the walls
❤️
I have fostered lots of children boys while they are in limbo regarding the welfare system girls & there is a generally a huge difference in their expression of anger and/or agression. Two different animals. My experience is that boys deal with it almost asa genetic/social right. Its also much easier to deal with boys in that dynamic. Young girls act out & seem to have to be pain-stakingly coddled to get to bottom of it. 😂
A peacock has purple feathers
Has it not
I think part of the inner struggle with women is that we are natural nurturers and are expected to be nurturing (including by ourselves), and anger feels like an urge to destroy, which is the opposite of nurturing. So when we get angry, we feel simultaneously both our own judgment and society’s or our family’s judgment that we are being a “bad” woman or a problem. But if we don’t express our anger, there is this feeling like our needs aren’t important, don’t matter, and may never be seen or met by other people. Which leaves us feeling even more anger, and it builds until it blows.
Cape Caad 😂👍
my mom beat the absolute shit out of me - take this "aggressive boys" stuff with you on your way out.
I'm sure it was unintentional, but it seemed that Joseph did not find ground to elaborate on the effect a woman's anger has on a man. I am very interested in this. My father and I took the Spock approach to men's feelings meaning they don't really feel anything but anger. This concept has been damaging.
I noticed the same thing. I was curious and would’ve liked to have heard a little bit more about what that experience is like for a man.
Anger is very complicated topic, of all common emotions that is perhaps most diffult and overlooked in history of philosophy. And that tells something of how tricky it is!
"Anger sweeter than honey" This (more or less accurately quoted) line is from Illiad. And i've studied somewhat of philosophy of anger and i really think this line hits the mark most accurately. It is luring, it is MOST sweet! And i feel they you guys failed to touch this luring aspect of anger. To use Hillman's alchemical ideas, which i think is the best one, anger is sulfuric aspect most magnificent: Extraverted, sticky, yellow, volatile, sweet, masculine. In almost all ways opposite of salt and silver.
Why Hillman's alchemy? Because forexample Edinger ignores sulfur completely and even Jung just glances it. They perhaps are terrified by it's extraversion, it's devilish nature, it's amoralism. Many Jungians tend lean into white, to salt and silver, to keep it in bound structure under introverted inspection.
And i'm not very sure introversion necessarily is best way to deal with anger. Silver is turned black by sulfur, introverted inspection blackened, albedo reduced back into nigero. Or perhaps that is just what has to happen: It has to lash out against world and let the silver turn pitch black for silver to face it's own limitations, for it's extraverted nature sealed introverted vessel just doesn't cut it.
But there are many types of anger: sweet hot, stingy bitter, silvery coolness comes to my mind. Perhaps the silvery coolness is sort of balancing the sulfuric heat, managing to keep it under control. But even there i wonder if extraverted sulfur is still in charge by tricking silver into thinking that it's introversion is in charge. I often find myself thinking that my anger is cool and focused at spesific task, not lashing out uncontrollably, but find myself wondering that is that a sweetness of honey i taste on my lips...
Very tricky and serves many different agendas - some life giving, some just destructive. Your point is well taken.
@@thisjungianlife Thanks. I find that post almost too difficult to read for myself, way too long and way too fastly written. i wonder if anyone has any idea what i'm trying to say. :)
But yeah, Plato and his kind of philosophers of trancendental ideals in general don't seem to like anger, it's all just bad. One has to remain calm and controlled under all circumstances. Aristotle, who famously pointed at earth while Plato pointed at sky, might be only one of the ancient philosophers who sees something valuable in anger. Which in my mind highlights anger's extraversion: it wants to go to the earth/world instead of heaven.
I noticed that i stumbled a bit there. Edinger did mention sulfur amongst with salt and lead as initial conditions, but didn't mention yellowing, Citrinitas, as process after albedo. So Edinger went straight from albedo to rubedo. While Hillman saw that yellowing is sulfuric process in between albedo and rubedo and one has to be aware of it and manage it carefully.
Oh well, here i go again...
Rubbish about women having a problem with anger, women are incredibly angry and they act on it.
She is on a mission, isn’t she?
Discounting boys’ experience with anger. Boys, men are absolutely not allowed to be angry!
Her insincere chuckle after he made the most poignant statement this channel has or will ever make at the 28 minute mark made me lose a lot of respect for her.