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Just rode a rental Himalayan in Patagonia and loved the bike! Just so forgiving and easy to ride, in Texas top speed could def be an issue, but man loved that bike. I'd consider getting one!
@@ADViators The new 450 LC Himalayan seems to be the ticket. That said, I had a BLAST on the Hunter 350. If I was 2 hours closer to curves or commuted into the city, I would own one.
I started on a '20 KTM 390 riding in Austin, Texas, and while the bike was quick at lower speeds, it didn't have enough kick at higher speeds. I upgraded to a '22 KTM 890 Adv and did a decat, carbon intake, exhaust, lowered gear ratio, and remap. It's plenty fast, I could see how a faster sport bike would be fun, but it's definitely not needed for me. NOW, shipped the bike to Panama, where the average bike size is like 200cc. With the road conditions, highway stretches, and congestion, it really is more weight and power than is useful. There are widow maker potholes everywhere, objects on the road everywhere, sand everywhere, and traffic flows to where it fits with practically zero directional use or care for anyone behind. Power can absolutely exceed its usefulness dependent on location. The lighter and smaller bikes just start looking like more fun to ride... and safer.
Underrated perspective that the conditions ultimately determine how much power (with all the inherent compromises - weight, etc) is appropriate. Congrats on the KTM
We wouldn't need these laws if everybody was a practical and responsible as you are. It makes no sense to have a vehicle of any type that needs a closed track to drive it safely in my opinion. For the people that think they have the right to endanger everyone on the road..................... I don't have words for you. Congrats on being a responsible adult Greg! It just makes perfect sense!
One random person's experience relative to the 30 min mark: A good friend of mine has a carbureted Honda Blackbird from the 90s, and compared to a modern R1-M it is way more scary and intense. And we both agree the reason is that it will do whatever you tell it to. If you tell it to go 10/10 it will, regardless of if it's a good idea or not. If you show it fuel it will try to throw you and it doesn't hold back. Same with the handling and braking; you're 100% in control of your fate on that bike. On the other hand, I can ride a R1-M like an absolute maniac and unless I make a huge mistake I'll probably be fine. It'll keep its front wheel down, it'll shift smoothly on its own, and it'll keep the wheels from locking. Sounds bad, but I was almost bored riding it. It basically rides the bike for you, and while you know you're able to go very very fast, the danger/rawness just isn't there. Similar difference between a RT10 Viper and a Dodge Hellcat today. One is way faster, but the other is actually dangerous in the hands of a unskilled operator but incredibly rewarding in the hands of someone who knows how to use it right. Anecdotal, but pretty similar to the hypothetical posed.
I loved this story. Thanks for sharing. Buddy of mine has 2012 VMAX and was telling us how scary it is. I looked up quarter mile times of new liter bikes and we were shocked how much faster they are. He's ridden Hayabusas and such and said they were nowhere near as fast feeling as the VMAX. It must be along the same lines.
I downsized from a 130 BHP Sports Tourer to a 47 BHP Adventure bike and it was a great move. The more powerful bike was simply too fast for real world roads. On virtually every ride I would see the speedometer heading into licence loosing territory while overtaking. The smaller bike just allows you to get on it and enjoy the ride. My average annual mileage has doubled since downsizing and I’m enjoying my riding than I did before. I think that power and speed is probably something that most motorcyclists need to get out of their system but there is now way that power and speed makes motorcycling better for most people who ride on public rides.
I went the other way, going from a 40ish hp Royal Enfield to a 115hp sport tourer. I don't see myself ever going back, because not having extra power on tap is just too scary around drivers here. Sometimes, the safest thing to do is hit the gas to get out of a dangerous situation, and with some self control, I think it's a lot safer (for me, anyway) to have more power than you'll generally need.
I have found that most people who give that reason for having or "needing" ludicrously overpowered bikes have not yet learned how to threshold brake. Or practice progressive braking so that they can reliably do it in a hairy situation. Power is not always the answer. Control is, however. Light bikes are easier to control, as a general rule.
My first motorcycle was a 1994 Ninja 500 and I thought it was perfect. Any less power or torque and I would have gotten bored after a couple thousand miles. While I wanted more luxuries, the basic nature of the bike gave me a great platform to learn on. If I knew someone just getting started on a motorcycle today, I’d recommend another 500cc bike as long as they felt confident with their motor and spatial perception skills.
1390 Superduke Evo R owner here. I think it has right about the right amount of power ;) Bought it for the Looks, the suspension, the engine and the ergonomics (192cm, almost 6.4"). Do i "need" or use all that power on the road, no. Is it amazingly fun to have and does it make me very happy, yes :D
It's interesting that the ZX4RR did not come up. The NA restriction makes it a little tricky, but within the bounds of the what the bike is able/supposed to make (75-80 hp) and the fact that it is unique in it's displacement/cylinder count, I would have been interested to hear what you guys think of that bike within the context of this discussion.
Interesting how differing regulations result in the US ZX4RR making far less power than the UK/European version while the new Ninja 500 is just the opposite (thank you Kawasaki for giving the US a "not restricted by A2 requirements" version).
I bought a GSX-R1000 last summer to scratch the sportbike itch. Mind you I've been riding 30 years on everything from sportbikes to adv bikes and currently race hare scrambles on a 450 mx bike. I sold the GSX-R after a few months, it just wasn't much fun on the street. As soon as you get into the meat of the power you're already doubling (or tripling) the speed limit. I plan on replacing it with a more sensible Z900RS.
I was thinking about this bike while they were talking about torque. I did a review on my channel of my z900rs and I love it. At 73 ft lb. of torque and 110hp it’s got the best of both worlds. Power all around the tach and it can get moving faster than I need to be on the road if I want it to. The only down side is the anarchy throttle that can be easily be tuned with an ECU flash. Bathe flash is a definite requirement.
Back in the 70s when i started street riding on a Kawasaki G3SSD 90 with 9 hp it would do 60mph but the speed limit was 50 and it would do it all day. And when I upgraded to a RD350 that would do 105mph witch was fast enough, you couldn't do it all the time. So 45 years later my 2013 VT750RS has 46hp and i don't care how fast it goes, but it does the speed limit till the tank runs out.
Y'all didn't mention it, but in a world where everyone in America thinks 60-70 hp is a beginner bike I gotta wonder how long until America adopts a graduated licensing system like Europe & the UK where the law makes sure beginners are riding less powerful motorcycles.
No worries. Although we Europeans have that mentioned system, people still say that everything under 100 HP or 800cc is a beginner bike. Some colleagues often said that my Versys 650 is not a "real motorcycle" and I should buy something like a 1250 GS or similar to ride a proper bike :D
Yea to me it's insane. Where I am and many other places in the world a beginner bike is 125cc. I now ride an 800cc Adventure, which to me is a large bike. Middleweight in the class used to be 650cc making 40-60 horsepower. And the last few years it has become 900cc with 100 horsepower.
My take on this is, I don't need a lot of horsepower to really enjoy what I do. I have a 2020 KTM 390 Adventure that I have put well over 40,000 miles on at this point. It's been ridden all over the US. And I'm happy with the bike.
I rather have power that I can use. I had a fireblade and loved it, But max it out in first gear and you could be looking at prison with 5 gears still to use lol. I like big cylinders so go for thumpers or V -twins.
I’m selling my Concours 1400 for exactly that reason. I bought it because I’ve owned Z750 and a Honda 919, and I wanted a larger displacement in line four in my stable. After a season of owning it, I have realized that 150+ horsepower and 100 foot pounds of torque on a 600 pound bike is too much for me. Especially with that sweet smooth inline four. I haven’t gotten a speeding ticket in 20 years but holy shit it’s gonna happen on this bike. It is way too easy gear to go from 55 to 75 and not notice cause it’s only 300 RPM difference. I went for a ride today and I pulled out of my driveway in second gear. I wrote through town in second gear. I got on my secondary roads in second gear on the interstate 80 miles an hour in second gear. It’s just too much bike. When the only reason to ever shift is for fuel economy, I had to take a step back and realize that this is too much for me. I’ve been riding for 30 years. I’ve owned 20+ bikes. I have 500,000 miles on my butt. I’m selling this bike and looking for another 919.
I've owned a handful of dozens of bikes from 90cc to 1274cc with 1 to 4 cylinders. When facing a choice between cc and handling[ CB550/750-Buell XB9XS/XB12] I went with the smaller engine. 550 to 650 is where I tend to land. This episode has been the best I've seen from you . Thank you. Thank you very much.
1:58:14 In reference to this guys question, I’m 31 years old with two kids under the age of 3. On a “break” from motorcycles, sold mine just before my oldest child’s first birthday. Bought a bicycle I could fit child’s seats on, which has become a very fun thing to do with my kids. I’m missing motorcycling a bit, which is a big reason why I listen to this podcast. But I just wanted to say I respect how you two handled that question, since it’s a difficult decision and reasonable people end up deciding different things for their own personal situations and reasons.
I miss my VFR 800 (1998). A regret I'll always have is selling it. I've been out of motorcycling ever since I sold in 2000. Then I got bit by the bug again like a bolt out of the blue this past Christmas. Love my Tuono 660.
concours 14 i have hopped up 160 +hp and suspension work can keep up with those sport bikes even with bags on in comfort - big girl but hold line great torqe is were it is street 100ftlbs ++ -perfect for short long twisties fun all one bike - great content here. cheers
The Aprilia Tuareg 660 closely fits your specifications for an “ideal” ADV off-road oriented bike. It has 80 horsepower, an excellent suspension, good frame geometry, cruise control, tubeless tires, very good brakes and electronics (e.g., adjustable traction control, ABS, etc). Available OEM options include a quick shifter, heated grips and additional electronics (cell phone integration). With those accessories it is very similar in features to the KTM 890 Rally Adventure that Spurgeon owns, but with less horsepower. Many reviewers say the Tuareg is a well designed package, in much the same way that Spurgeon describes his KTM 890. I am shorter and smaller than Spurgeon and my Tuareg fits me well. I am guessing that the KTM 890 is a better fit to his body size (it is physically larger than I want).
Having owned a 1100XX myself I can tell you it's an incredibly gentle motorcycle to ride, both at low and higher speeds. you have to really push it to it's limits before it starts to feel intimidating. It's got a very comfortable low seat height and center of gravity but because of it's weight it can feel a bit slow on turn in. The only time it actually scared me shitless when was when I went flat out on a 1.5 mile long, straight stretch through a forest. it was a dead end due to roadworks, so no traffic. at 200mph (according to the speedometer) that road became real narrow. In comparison my 1098S feels like it's got double the HP the blackbird had when in fact it's got less actually.
The question is a bit like if “If it’s too loud then you’re old”. Coming up on 54 and one of my bikes is a ZH2 SE. One is also a Honda Monkey so I run the gamut.
My first bike was a carbureted 2004 Ninja 500R. 50hp. 390 lbs. $4300 new. I commuted 120 miles a day on it. Did my first track day on it. Hit the Tail of the Dragon on it. Learned how to wrench on it. It lasted 109,000 miles before it finally died. Only negative was lack of aftermarket support unless you were tracking it as a street fighter.
Regarding your response to Andrew, I kinda went through the same thing. I rode motorcycles through the 70's, but got married and didn't ride for almost 30 years. At that time, I got back into it and now 15 years later, there are four in my garage.
To give an idea of how this is viewed by Old Farts: The Yamaha RD400s of the late 1970's were considered performance motorcycles. When I tracked down enough data, I discovered that the current Kawasaki Z400 has faster 0-60 and 0-100mph performance than the old RD400, but the Z400 is now considered a beginner bike. I had wanted a RD400 when I was a teenager and finally got that performance in 2020 when I picked up a Z400. Silly me, I thought that I was being generous to the dealer since the COVID shutdown had just started and that people would not be buying toys like motorcycles.
Going out just now on my stock RD400 with a disadvantaged RD350 motor. Sucks gas that if I hit 65 miles before I hit reserve, that's a good day. Low twenties with even worse power.
@@kd350 A new RD400 had around 40hp at the rear wheel, IIRC, but yes, they never could go far on a tank of gas, although the last versions in the US had a slightly bigger tank. They could be tweaked for significantly more power, but stock, they claimed 44hp at the crank.
@@jfess1911 Recent new head gaskets has given me some good pulls between 6,5 and 8 rpm....Still leaks and I may sand the heads on some glass backed 200 grit.
I laughed out loud about Spurge's gas saving while commuting comment. i commute on my aprilia. i do struggle to match my gf's skoda's mileague. still there's the smiles per gallon ;) Great episode!
About the ADV category, i got myself a KTM "22 890 ADV this summer, coming from an "19 Ninja SX. LOVED the SX, but for roadtrips two up riding, this just wasnt confortable for the SO, alone, i'd have kept it. still, knowing it was way too much HP (142) already, but the sound and feel... i like the KTM, just like. its very usable, i can do 2 up, long road trips, its kitted out with big windshield, confort saddle, big cases, the works. plenty of power even fully loaded, (but we're french, so there goes your point about US weight :D ) i hate the sound, especially down low, it rattle like a chainsaw, once you're in the rev (5k+), then its rocky and feels good, plenty stable and controlable, and VERY confortable. now the SO doesnt care that we're doing 90 mph+, before that she would moan at 90KPH on the SX. i hate the unreliability of parts. i've had 3 seperate issues taken under warranty in less than a year, thanks to KTM being cheap on these models (as said coming straight from the ktm shop duder), and add to that the "electronics packs" that are physically installed but costed 1k more just to be activated which is a retarded move. i would want to switch to a Versys 1000 if i could, but its just slightly off range money wise, and might loose some of the goods of the KTM that i may not fully appreciate yet. this is always such a difficult thing !
hey, casual rider/physics appreciator here, ill just start by saying "5252", if you know, you know... also congrats to Spurgeon and family! Zack and Spurge, i honestly think its amazing how much you can beat around the bush, you guys are podcast Artists, you went the whole show without saying the 1 word that sums all this up, "...but would it have been as fun?"... one of the cheapest, easiest, most substantial ways to adjust your bikes characteristics... !!GEARING(sprockets)!! its not only torque or hp that makes a difference, its the gearing. your 350 is not too much power, its too much speed, or, too long of a gear for that amount of power in tight tracks. similar thing with he road bicycle vs the 5hp scooter, the bicycle has the full set of driven gears as well as variable drive gears. longer gearing (big drive, small driven) for downhill making it faster with less power(an athletic human can generate around 2 hp) and very short gearing for uphill making it slower but still capable. the scooter is locked in to its narrower ratio and has to struggle to try and spinner faster even when its not taxed(downhill) due to more limited gearing(could be cvt, not sure). power doesnt have to limit ability if it instead limits top speed, (and in the case of the 350 in the woods, it needs its top speed limited for comfort) if youre ok with going a slower pace even small power can be tuned to be useful. so the question becomes "how fast do you want to be able to go, on what type of terrain/load, and how fast do you want to be able to change speeds?" if we increase power numbers we could still focus on a certain speed range but you can change speed much faster or carry more. in my opinion high horsepower is bad when gearing wont help enough and it needs an abundance of rider assists to manage it, it kinda becomes useless, you are buying multiple systems/mechanisms to fight the power you spent more on. meanwhile the same people want less government... **shrug** i dont pretend to understand people, but gears, i get. as far as the ninja500; first, the numbers mean very little... its 451cc... and even that isnt enough info, whats the power and gearing?? if were gonna talk about 500s, kawasaki 500r(ex500 498cc 50hp) was the beginner size when i was too young and drooling (250r was a "girls bike", that was the early 90s), with todays components and quality(and price) im sure its more than approachable for a beginner, i started on a plated drz400e(43hp), its definitely gonna be more tame than that, not due to power, but gearing.
My first bike was 883 Sportster, was told I would get bored of the power, never did love that bike and still ride it although I just recently upgraded to a zx4r, 70hp here and that is more than enough for me.
For Andrew, do not sell your bike, ride when you want. Make time for that hobby. You will never regret that. I do have regret, it was the first thing I bought after divorce. From a 50 year old guy that now lives at the beach and has two bikes! I gave up on the hobby of women and enjoy hobbies that I know I will be successful at and it's rewarding. Good luck with your choice.
My favorite bike so far is my Z 900 RS. 110 HP with stock exhaust and ECU. Plenty of power for everything I want a bike to do, but not too much. For me, 2nd gear power wheelies are not desirable, and would indicate excessive power.
YES! I had a busa for a very short time. Was reasonably comfortable, no vibration and whisper quiet. The transmission was pointless as it would go 110 in first gear. You could never explore the power without risking going to jail. Only kept it a few months.
Thanks so much, guys. An intelligent and honest discussion of a topic that draws too many extremes of view. My own evolution as a rider is still in the high horsepower phase, and I will tend that direction by default more than most, but my NC750 has it's own joys, and I can see a time when I go the V100 Mandello route and be Ok with about 100 hp.
I graduated high school on 1974. I had a Honda 350, and it was the biggest motorcycle in the high school, 350 pounds and 35 horsepower. When I sold Triumphs in the 90's, the starter bike was a 600 sport bike, 300 pounds, 110 horsepower. Anything smaller than a 600, was emasculating. I still maintain motorcycles should be in 350 to 500 cc class.
I'm an old man & the Laverda was my favorite dream motorcycle when I was a young man. But it was pure unobtainium for someone in rural Iowa working at McDonalds for a whopping $1.65 an hour.
Wow you made $1.65 an hour. I worked for six months at a local burger shop had five raises and left making $1.25 an hour. I went to a union job paying $3.25 an hour. Circa 1973.
Owner of 21’ MT-09 & 20’ Softail Standard. I’d say sweet spot for hp and tq is as far as the brakes will take you. Neither of my bikes are rated well in the brake department. One has all the rider aids and the other has none. My Softail has been sitting in the corner of my garage for the better part of 3 years for a reason. Yes the MT accelerates faster than the brakes can make up for. But the brakes on the Softail are so bad that the tq will get you into trouble faster because it can’t scrub speed fast enough. Yes the weight makes a difference especially with a fatty like myself sitting on it, but the brakes on the Harley are so bad that you don’t feel the biting point
I rode the XSR700 at MotoGP in 2021 and it was a fun bike but I wanted more power the bike felt kind of flat, and I rode the Duke 390's that same weekend and railed on them and they were so fun. I literally rode the 390 twice because it was so fun while the 890 felt like I was going to wheelie right off, power doesn't always mean more fun or more ideal and I'm not entirely sure I'm able to determine exactly why. This year at MotoGP I rode the MT07 and MT09 and they were fun, but fell in love with the XSR900... so much so that I'm trying to buy one. Not for the power but because of all the rider aids, the IMU, the modes and cruise control, lightweight, good brakes. Just feels a step above everything else I'm ok with the complaints about a dip in the power around 4-7k rpm on the bike.
I have been out of biking for a bit, my last bike was a ZX-7 - carbs, no electronics at all, 115hp, 230kg. Just bought a new Street Triple 765 120hp. It is unbelievably easy to ride so comfortable so smooth but I do miss the absolute solidity of the ZX7 front end in the turns …
I recently got a Honda Rebel 1100 which ‘only’ has 86hp and 72ft-lb torque which is almost twice the power of my last bike but slow compared to a lot of bikes out there and it’s absolutely bonkers fun to give it the full beans in sport mode. I can’t even imagine what liter bikes and the big KTM twins are like to ride.
Great discussion! In my fifties & sixties I rode a CBR954 with 135 hp on the dyno and eventually weighed 395# wet on the backroads of Vancouver Island. One day I rode a friend’s KTM 950SM, the last carbureted year with around 100 hp, but more torque. I had so much fun with that bike with zero scary moments. I wouldn’t’ say I had more fun on the KTM, it was different fun.
Funny, Adam Riemann recently did a little comparison between the new F900GS, a Tenere and old Africa Twin, and the power usability seems to top out at about 75HP.
Welcome back to Highside Lowside with Zack Courts and Spurge Manchu lol! The "babies on bikes" CTXP was probably the funniest episode yet, great fun! To start off answering the question no I don't think a motorcycle can have too much horsepower. However, it can have too much horsepower for the riders abilities. Scito te ipsum. Spurge you need to have Bruce turbo that track prepped Ninja 400 for you, should be spot on after that! lol Well Spurge Royal Enfield is making 400/450 adventure bikes and as far as I can tell they are selling quite well. Not to encourage spec sheet warriorism but both horsepower and torque are important to look at when choosing a motorcycle. Been a minute since we've had an Uncle Bob story, more of that please! The Ninja 500 isn't a 500 its a 450 and shame on Kawasaki for cheating up! Sounds like V-twin cruiser maybe a Harley but could be done up to resemble a Harley. Also, sounds older like from the 70's maybe. Wrong again I'm worse at this than the hosts lol! I concur Spurge I don't think you can make a Spyder sound like that no matter how hard you try. Congratulations are in order for Mr. and Mrs. Dunbar! May your first child be a masculine child lol! Spurgeon Dunbar Jr. Jr. coming soon to HS/LS!
I own both an MT-10 and a Ninja 650, and on most tight, technical backroads, I'd prefer the Ninja 650, all day long. It's so forgiving and yet so capable and confidence inspiring at the same time, which just makes it a more enjoyable recreational riding experience.
thats the reason why mt07, z650 and sv650 are so popular. Enough power on the streets to be as fast as any superbike if ridden by a good rider and enough power for solo motorway cruising at 140kmh while being extremely reliable, good on fuel, low maintnance and good torq across all rev range making city progressio effortless. I still have a 300cc scooter and had a cbf500, bandit 1200 and recently a 2004 sv650. My next bike is gonna be a z650 or gsx8s because from my experience, something between 70-90hp is perfect for a fun naked light bike
Bought new and another refurbished set of DT50/LCs are my fun bikes. Claimed 7.4hp equates to 145hp/liter! Six speeds, Liquid cooling, monoshock, 31" seat height, tach/speedo,temp guages. The tooth up one will bury the speedo past the limit and catch up to traffic in a 50 zone.
Started out on a 35hp 2018 KLR 650. Put 10k miles on it. Just bought my 2nd bike 105hp KTM 790 duke. Amazing machine. I’ll never use its power to its full potential on the roads but it is nice to finally be able to pass comfortably.
I've been watching LS/HS for years and the trivia episode is my all time favorite and (in my opinion) set the bar for all other episodes to aspire to! Anyone that did not enjoy the trivia episode is a douche! Thank You🤠
I hated the trivia episode. What was it ten questions? And they sat there unsure of their guess for ten minutes before they finally revealed the answer? That whole thing could have been done and over in twenty minutes. What a monumental waste of time! Time that could have been spent talking about motorcycling! They should have just discussed the answers and done away with the forty five minutes of people saying "hm I'm not sure!..... Hmmm....hmmm.....hmmm...."
Congrats to spurge and the family. Currently loving my Duke 390 as first bike. I'm not sure what my next bike will be but prob will be double or triple the HP. Looking at bikes like rs660, xsr900, cb650r, tuareg, t7. Im not yet sure on the type of riding i like the most.
I love smaller displacement, lower HP bikes that couple it with low weight...but not for where I currently live. 4 hours of dull interstate, soul-crushing drone to get to the first curve that is not an on or off ramp (and the odd traffic circle) had me selling my Z400 after only 4200 miles. If I lived in Knoxville, TN or Silver City, NM I would still have it. With variations of Adventure Sport Tourers (soft Adventure bikes) from 80-150 HP and the 5th gen VFR800 that I currently own, I am pretty sure my 80 hp Triumph Tiger Sport 660 is exactly as fun when I get to the twisties as the 2010 Multistrada, 2006 Buell Ulysses, and 1999 VFR800...and they are all about the same level of capable to get to those far away curves. Each feels totally different doing both roles. Now, have not long distanced or canyon carved the 138K mile 1999 BMW R1100GS so will let you know where it slots after my 6500 mile August trip.
It's horses for courses, at the end of the day. All of my riding is back roads or in town, going down the shops or around to a mate's place. I honestly doubt that I've done an hour on the freeway in the last 6 months. My bike is a 47hp Kawasaki W800. It's perfect for my use case, but use cases vary. If I was spending hours on the freeway each week, I'd go for something with more power and a fairing.
I always have to have a stupid fast bike, that isn't the race replica. However, there is a certain enjoyment and winding your bike out past more than the first two gears. That's where the 80 horsepower Cruiser comes in. If I had to pick just one it would be the fast bike, but if that fast bike didn't exist I could see being entirely happy with 100hp.
75hp cruiser here. Agreed. Although, I "always have to have" a low maintenance bike with locking bags that's 99% dependable. Wouldn't mind a Ninja 1000SX though....
IMO, the 750 size class is perfect for sports and standards on the street. Unfortunately, only Aprilia seems to take this class seriously, and their engines are a bit smaller. Even Triumph with the world beating 765 refuses to give it any model variations (like a fully faired option) or the good tech (like cruise control). I have a rule, I won't buy a new bike that doesn't have cruise control. Do you need it, no, but it's a great QoL improvement and indicative of how seriously the brand is treating the model. If it has throttle-by-wire (almost all models), cruise control is trivial. Yet, except Aprilia, it's only available on flagship models. Ducati won't even put it on the Supersport and Triumph charges $2,400 for the privilege (which should be standard). Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha all have multiple new models in the size class and none offer cruise control.
Grats Spurg Chasing horsepower for the sake of chasing it is the reason we have an emergence of small displacement machines imo. To a counterpoint, manufacturers have to do something to make people want to buy new bikes..what a conundrum!
I reckon that Royal Enfield have put the wind up the big four and others with their return to the market. Small to mid capacity bikes with reasonable performance and at a very good price point. All of a sudden you can buy a bike that you can afford, you can learn to ride on and with enough performance that it will suffice for some time to come.
So I’ve had a lot of bikes (23) since 2018. Started small worked my way up and then had plenty of 1000cc bikes. However I currently think I have a near perfect garage, I have an adventure bike, CFmoto 450ss (street bike), and a 1981 Kawasaki kz750e (street bike or that time). I find in the street bike class that no one needs more than a middle weight bike. Which is why the middle weight class is so juicy right now with some heavy hitters coming out. When it comes to cruisers and adventure the cc’s can vary so much depending on what you’re doing. That’s my opinion but I think that’s pretty level for what is being said.
You answered the question in the first segment. Improvements in enginge management, braking systems, tyres and chassis design mean that 200+ hp bikes are much safer in a lot of ways than many older bikes. There is also definitely "too much", because i doubt many manufacturers want to start making 250+ hp bikes that smoke rear tyres in about 500km.
I started riding in 1972 so my views are biased but I think the 1975 Yamaha XS650B is close to perfect for a street bike. It’s not too big for commuting and it’s not too small for touring. Today, the Royal Enfield 650 is in that niche. If someone today would look at the 1973 Honda SL-350 as inspiration and make an air-oil cooled 650 in that vein, that might be perfect.
I used to ride a Kawa ZRX1100 limited to 100hp as per the law in France at the time. It was a very pleasant bike to ride. The power was right there at 2000 revs and I would usually shift up at 3000. I loved that bike as I don't like to have to rev up the engine in order to get performance. I never ever used all the power, but loved to feel that excess power was there. I did need to pay attention in the rain though. Plenty of low down torque meant that the rear wheel would spin on wet surface at low speed, unless I was very careful with the wrist twist. Also, rode a 110cc in Thailand for six months as a daily rider. It was awesome, didn't really need more power, and the fuel economy was unbelievable - unlike the Kawa which was unbelievable as well but in the opposite direction 😄😄
I’m a little surprised that this is so topical. I switched from a 2009 Harley Davidson Streetbob that probably had about 80hp to a 2022 BMW R 1250 RS a couple of years ago. I have felt a bit of envy that so many bikes have so much more hp these days. 160hp plus seems like the norm, but that’s liter plus bikes I suppose. I love having the 136hp and 105 ft lbs of torque of the RS. It feel like it is a very practical and usable amount of power that allows for plenty of roll on passing power I don’t have to downshift in most cases, but if I do it gets that shiftcam kick that rockets it past whatever I need to get around. It seems like more than enough power for me frankly, but I still sort of lust after say a BMW XR 165hp. I think I might enjoy the extra torque more than the marginal hp gain however.
It's eye opening going back in time and looking at what people toured on back in the 1970s. Everyone had motorcycles absolutely HEAPED with heavy sleeping bags, tent rolls, bags, etc and sometimes a pillion.....and they made it across the country JUST FINE. A bike like a Kawasaki W800 or Royal Enfield were considered perfectly adequate and ALL the Japanese manufacturers made parallel twins that were around 50 hp. A BMW R90 was considered a top-of-the-line tourer. Today, I myself have a Super Tenere and just cannot see the need for a BMW GS with more than 150HP.
I don't think a GS has more than 150 hp. In the 70s there were a whole lot less cars and traffic was a lot slower. A modern car is fast without trying. You don't want to be a rolling roadblock.
While I was watching this. I was thinking. That's how I feel about a 98 vfr800 I fixed up last year as A second bike. And then out of no where you mention the exact bike lol. I love the bike for all the reasons you did. Perfect mix and always power
the new 900GS actually ticks a lot of zac's boxes! adam reimann gave it a good review thwacking it off road and it still has a lot of the fancy farkles... chris eades loved it on the spanish launch too...
Answering your call for more feedback on the trivia episode... It was good. Maybe learn from the few mistakes, tighten up some rules and do it again. It's Zack and Spurge. It's entertainment. It's about bikes. What's not to like?
Such a great topic. Normal road riding, locally, the desert X with 110hp seems perfect, with a bit of off-road and canyon fun too.superb. Full off-road, the husky 350, seems great for everything, just change the front sprocket for faster runs…… but out doing longer than an hour, with my wife on the back (she’s only 115lbs) then the Ducati multi V2, and even 1250GS seemed too slow, and too asthmatic if you have to make a pass on a long uphill at 80mph, whereas the multi V4 makes it so much easier…..and for that reason more relaxing.
really?? is your wife a sumo wrestler???? i barely notice a lag passing uphill at 80 on my rc390 with my gf on the back, and ive even gone down in the rear sprocket...
@@babyfknblu everything is relative….. you can pass on a hill “without feeling it” but in relative terms you will still be ragging it on a 390, even without a pillion, with very little surplus acceleration available. Both the multiV2 and the 1250GS will find it far easier than your 390, but if you try it on my tweaked V4s then you’ll understand what I mean. I’m not saying you can’t do it on the 390, or that it wouldn’t be fun, of course it would, it’s a great bike……but it ain’t the same, nor very “effective” for the scenario I’m describing.
@@babyfknblu indeed, they’re all great bikes, but to pull well on the 1250 or V2 uphill at high motorway speed, you’d need to knock it down a few cogs and rev hard. On the V4 it’ll breeze by in top, but if you knock it down a cog or two, you’ll be by in the blink of an eye without even feeling the hill. I don’t know where you ride, but I’m in the south of France, amongst the mountains, and we have many long uphill sections that can last a long time, so the high speed pull of the bike can transform the ride, whereas too little pull can become very tedious, if you have to work at it more, or if you need to make quick passes. In these conditions I find the V2 and 1250GS relatively slow.
dunno - it's all people talk about. It is fun, but so is winding up a mid displacement I4. But it is easier to make a euro compliant twin than a 4 - so twins and torque rule the roost.
It's an incredible coincidence that I was listening to this exact podcast and I found myself sitting at a red light behind a restored Laverda Jota 1000!
I've been considering a Honda NC750, and I am not going to worry about 58hp being too little anymore. Why oh why did I ever think that would be a problem coming from a 50cc moped?
First I have to say I appreciated the discussion but I feel like it got boiled down into how much hp do you “need” and away from how much is too much. I enjoy the whole range on 2 wheels. I have owned a Vespa 300 that had 23hp and I still own a K1600 that has 160hp. Both are perfect tools for different jobs. The real answer is I don’t think 160hp is too much. In the K1600 6 cylinder it has power at any RPM but it’s not crazy unless you want it to be. That however gets into the discussion of power to weight ratio and gearing.
rode Honda "postie" 110cc at a mates farm and the old XL500 he had got myself an XR400 as my first bike. XR400 isn't the most fun in traffic or on road so I got an R3 to go with it. Tenere 700 might be the next bike or R9 if it ever gets announced
It's somewhat frustrating here in Australia because a lot of bikes in that 60-80hp range are only sold as power restricted learner legal variants. I'd love around 70hp but with a few exceptions it's either 45hp or 90+.
I personally never got caught up in motorcycle stats. I have a 800cc with 110HP. I still remember fondly the many times I rode 125cc and 350cc bikes. Those give so much fun for a much lower cost.
The 2 stroke bikes from the ‘90s were insane. Smaller displacement bikes that hit the powerband in a huge way. A 2 stroke back then would sputter around even at WOT till the powerband. At that point, a CR80 would launch an adult off the back in a heartbeat. They have come a long way over the years.
There’s also the 49-state/California thing. My friend was taking care of their elderly parent in the Midwest, when they saw an add for a Ninja 400. What they didn’t realize was that Kawasaki sells a California, and a 49-state version. California doesn’t allow used 49-state motorcycles with less than 4,700 miles on the odometer to be brought into the state. So, yeah the Iowa model of the Ninja 400 isn’t allowed to be brought into California.
power to weight matters: when i got my 1st road bike on a full license i was 17, it was 1993 and i rode an RGV250 - that is a supremely fast bike for someone who is legal and it is very lightweight of course which means it whooped everything in most places, i would take that any day over a modern bike that kids like me would buy nowadays with large capacity and larger weight my 500ktm has 64 hp and weighs 109kg roughly - work it out 🙂 - the acceleration on that thing in any gear is insane on the roads, of course off road is even more pure exhilaration
Rule of thumb. 250 two-stroke = 500 4our stroke with cams, , headers, exhaust and intake tuned for peaky high rpm power. At very least it's like doubling the rpm, since it fires twice as often at given rpm, so double the displacement to get same power increase.
The power these days are so good on the more powerful bikes, like more manageably tractable or more tractably manageable, I just hope my explaining is understood to anyone reading this. Love the video take on this topic, of Can Motorcycles Have Too Much Horsepower, Spurg and Zack!
The torque part of the question is kinda funny and more interesting because with it being a physical force, there is a literal minimum required to counteract the force from wind and friction and all that. In theory, you could ask the question “what top speed do you want” for a given total weight and frontal area, figure out the required rpm the wheels would have at that speed and how much torque you would need to match any resistance and then you could solve for how much horsepower is “enough”.
I'm as susceptible to the more hp marketing play as anyone and I'd personally like a few more hp in my already 160hp Multi... but a couple observations: -You can have a crazy day of riding shenanigans on a 50hp 240lb Supermoto... and I think there are some very good arguments that the 73hp 340lb Supermoto from the same vendor is actually LESS capable and less fun... even with a 33% horsepower advantage. -On the street, I would likely be susceptible to a license destroying ticket in nearly EVERY situation where I was using all 210'ish hp of the S1000RR I had a blast riding at VIR. I can't imagine a situation where I could go WOT and actually use that power and still be at street legal speeds... in fact most of those bikes won't even let you use that power until you're in a higher gear... AND that bike can get you a ticket on pretty close to every road in the US in first gear. Offroad it's not even debatable IMO... weight is king, power is good as long as it has minimum effect on weight... OFFROAD the enduro version of that 50hp SM above eats the 73hp enduro version of the 73hp SM above... for... lunch... no contest. That 100lb weight difference is HUGE whereas the 23hp advantage is mostly "impossible to use".
Sorry late to the party, I'm a bit behind on my podcasts. If you do another trivia game, why not do a listener submitted questions one. I'm sure producer Chase won't mind going through all of em and picking the best ones 😅
In 1981 I had a job convincing my mother as an 18 year old, one leg in plaster cast that buying a Yamaha XT500 after wrapping my RD400f Daytona around a lamp post that the 500 is much less power than the 400.
I love the comments about chassis over horsepower. I am currently riding a 2007 ninja 650. The power is about perfect but I would love better suspension and chassis. Anyone have a good recommendation?
Zach, you're killing me. That is exactly what the v85 TT is. You've never given it a chance come ride mine in Colorado and that's exactly what you'll get. An 800cc air-cooled GS with all the fancy stuff. Heated grips, cruise control. I'm just so surprised by your view of that bike. I invite you. Come on out, do your daily ride and ride my v85 TT. 80 horsepower shaft drive all the stuff
@@davidmatthews3093 well that's a bummer. I have to admit mine is far from stock. And it amazes me as an all around adventure bike. Very capable. I just got done doing the Colorado dirty dozen.
@@Daschickenify thank u. I'm aware. There's a difference between one of the dealer demo floor and one that's been set up just right. Like 30% better. Anyway I have always wanted Zach to see this bike as a newer version of his dad's bike. The one he went home to ride. Simple, but modern. Exactly what he described as optimal. An 80hp vtwin, air cooled (GS like). I've owned 15 or so adventure style bikes and I can't say that any of them have come close to the class and character and or over all ability. Other than "hard Enduro" it's done it all in the mountains of Colorado. Not optimally but capably. If you go and find the motogeo series called "the dirty dozen" I've done all that without issue. It's more capable that people give it credit
Having test rode a Honda Blackbird and a BMW R1250R, the Blackbird does feel heavy and difficult to go through highish speed tighter corners 60-80mph. It's very stable and wants to sit you upright the whole time, which makes sense for its high top speed. But it's not enjoyable on the road anywhere near as much as as a 2021 electronic suspension BMW 1250 with less HP but more torque at the top end and through the rev range 😎
You guys need to live in Germany for a few years. I had an Adventure 1190s and it was nice to be able to cruise at 120MPH/200KPH at 70% throttle. I had a BMW S1000RR and as an autobahn cruiser, yes it still was too much power. 150/160HP at the crank of an ADV was about right for the autobahn. For a smaller bike like the Triumph Street Triple RS, 120ish at the crank is about right to cruise at 200KPH with a max speed of 250KPH. Yes the BMW s1000rr had to much poser even for the Autobahn, 200 is a good cruise speed at 250 you have just enough time to react to someone cutting your off. At 280KPH you're really risking your life because motorist passing can't comprehend the closing speed.
i also went from a well set up 1090r to a now well set up for me 901 uncorked & Tractive biongers which are great but id love to ride that Rally with the WP-PRO boingers one time to see what im missing . the cost of that swap for my 901 was double the cost of Tractive so i just couldnt justify it , i am happy with the result but will always wonder..... but i agree chassis and suspension make more diff esp off road than hp ever will its always a compromise , if your off road always 70hp is more than enough but then jump onto the highway and try passing cars = i love the 100+hp so ?
I have a question I feel never is answered in any videos I have seen. I'm 6 feet tall and around 280lb should the motorcycle have more power just because of my weight? Zack is tall but a light weight compared to me and often mentions his weight. So what would be a good motorcycle for me looking for a daily commute, and occasional road trip, maybe with my girlfriend on the back? P.S not looking for a cruiser, also not trying to be leaned over too far. I am 50+ after all...lol My friends say I need big CC's at my weight but I don't want to kill my self by getting more then I can handle 😢
From reports I have viewed the new Honda Translap 750 would meet most of your criteria with the possible exception of being lightly sprung for your weight. But with its low price even adding in a suspension uprade it would still be good value and most reviewers praise its on road characteristics.
True for canyon riding, not so much for interstate open highway with a load . 100-140 hp is great for that especially if riding two up with luggage. I have two bikes that fit both categories
Went from weestrom 650 and wanted a bike that could handle highways better and ended up with a n1k. Too much power imo for my daily commute. Now I’m considering going to a versys 1000 or vstrom1050 because I want to ride more comfortably when I have 2 up. The only reason I don’t want a smaller engine is because I love the low and mid range torque which is beneficial for when I go 2 up. So with that said, I feel roughly 100hp and 70 torque is near the perfect amount for 2 up highway riding and solo riding probably closer to 80 hp and 60 torque. I care more about low and mid range torque numbers that is flat and just a good amount of hp for highway riding. I see myself going from sport touring to cruiser riding in a few years. I’m trying to avoid it lol
Nothin' new...I bought and still have period RD350 and 400s. Yamaha stroked the 350 using the same piston/bore increasing mostly torque. They also made the latter heavier and larger for 6' Americans. I still have a bit of trouble swinging a leg over the 400D whereas the Daytona's seat is a bit easier. The Daytona has pollution abatements, the first such bike to have such. My RZ is the first bike with air injection and a catalytic converter installed from new. Noted they did drop back to the 64/54 bore and stroke of the original 350. Pistons from the '73 to the latest Banshee quad all work.
I agree what you sad in 58’20” we need a lighter les powerful adventure bike (if possible a parallelle-twin, and a 6th gear with overdrive for them faster street section)… with a good sub frame. Not the compromise Itchy Boots is riding on the Honda 350 rally, that’s a dull machine with not teeth.
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I ride a Royal Enfield. I will never have this problem.
Just rode a rental Himalayan in Patagonia and loved the bike! Just so forgiving and easy to ride, in Texas top speed could def be an issue, but man loved that bike. I'd consider getting one!
@@ADViators The new 450 LC Himalayan seems to be the ticket.
That said, I had a BLAST on the Hunter 350. If I was 2 hours closer to curves or commuted into the city, I would own one.
@michaelkrenzer3296 yea, I'd agree. Royal Enfield in general has a special place in my heart... long live RE!
I love classic bikes too. I don't own an RE but I do have a Yamaha SR400. Lol. Can go about the same speed as the 350 REs, and they're great
Same…
I started on a '20 KTM 390 riding in Austin, Texas, and while the bike was quick at lower speeds, it didn't have enough kick at higher speeds. I upgraded to a '22 KTM 890 Adv and did a decat, carbon intake, exhaust, lowered gear ratio, and remap. It's plenty fast, I could see how a faster sport bike would be fun, but it's definitely not needed for me. NOW, shipped the bike to Panama, where the average bike size is like 200cc. With the road conditions, highway stretches, and congestion, it really is more weight and power than is useful. There are widow maker potholes everywhere, objects on the road everywhere, sand everywhere, and traffic flows to where it fits with practically zero directional use or care for anyone behind. Power can absolutely exceed its usefulness dependent on location. The lighter and smaller bikes just start looking like more fun to ride... and safer.
Underrated perspective that the conditions ultimately determine how much power (with all the inherent compromises - weight, etc) is appropriate.
Congrats on the KTM
We wouldn't need these laws if everybody was a practical and responsible as you are. It makes no sense to have a vehicle of any type that needs a closed track to drive it safely in my opinion. For the people that think they have the right to endanger everyone on the road..................... I don't have words for you. Congrats on being a responsible adult Greg! It just makes perfect sense!
Most recent addition to my 12 bike stable is a new '20 Versys 300X. Two friends having ridden mine have since downsized!
One random person's experience relative to the 30 min mark: A good friend of mine has a carbureted Honda Blackbird from the 90s, and compared to a modern R1-M it is way more scary and intense. And we both agree the reason is that it will do whatever you tell it to. If you tell it to go 10/10 it will, regardless of if it's a good idea or not. If you show it fuel it will try to throw you and it doesn't hold back. Same with the handling and braking; you're 100% in control of your fate on that bike. On the other hand, I can ride a R1-M like an absolute maniac and unless I make a huge mistake I'll probably be fine. It'll keep its front wheel down, it'll shift smoothly on its own, and it'll keep the wheels from locking. Sounds bad, but I was almost bored riding it. It basically rides the bike for you, and while you know you're able to go very very fast, the danger/rawness just isn't there. Similar difference between a RT10 Viper and a Dodge Hellcat today. One is way faster, but the other is actually dangerous in the hands of a unskilled operator but incredibly rewarding in the hands of someone who knows how to use it right. Anecdotal, but pretty similar to the hypothetical posed.
I loved this story. Thanks for sharing. Buddy of mine has 2012 VMAX and was telling us how scary it is. I looked up quarter mile times of new liter bikes and we were shocked how much faster they are. He's ridden Hayabusas and such and said they were nowhere near as fast feeling as the VMAX. It must be along the same lines.
I'm told Carol Shelby once said "there's no such thing as too much horsepower, just not enough traction"
"Displacement Creep" was my nickname in science class.
"I don't care who you are, that's funny right there!"
Best line so far lol
I downsized from a 130 BHP Sports Tourer to a 47 BHP Adventure bike and it was a great move. The more powerful bike was simply too fast for real world roads. On virtually every ride I would see the speedometer heading into licence loosing territory while overtaking. The smaller bike just allows you to get on it and enjoy the ride. My average annual mileage has doubled since downsizing and I’m enjoying my riding than I did before. I think that power and speed is probably something that most motorcyclists need to get out of their system but there is now way that power and speed makes motorcycling better for most people who ride on public rides.
I went the other way, going from a 40ish hp Royal Enfield to a 115hp sport tourer. I don't see myself ever going back, because not having extra power on tap is just too scary around drivers here. Sometimes, the safest thing to do is hit the gas to get out of a dangerous situation, and with some self control, I think it's a lot safer (for me, anyway) to have more power than you'll generally need.
I have found that most people who give that reason for having or "needing" ludicrously overpowered bikes have not yet learned how to threshold brake. Or practice progressive braking so that they can reliably do it in a hairy situation. Power is not always the answer. Control is, however. Light bikes are easier to control, as a general rule.
@@RyanWithAviatorsno, because I hate the transplants in my state going 50 in the passing lane so I need 150+ hp to fly around them
Have multiple motorcycles with different horsepower is the way to go
couldn't agree more... if you can afford it, definitely have different bikes for different situations. That's my philosophy at least.
My first motorcycle was a 1994 Ninja 500 and I thought it was perfect. Any less power or torque and I would have gotten bored after a couple thousand miles. While I wanted more luxuries, the basic nature of the bike gave me a great platform to learn on. If I knew someone just getting started on a motorcycle today, I’d recommend another 500cc bike as long as they felt confident with their motor and spatial perception skills.
1390 Superduke Evo R owner here. I think it has right about the right amount of power ;)
Bought it for the Looks, the suspension, the engine and the ergonomics (192cm, almost 6.4"). Do i "need" or use all that power on the road, no. Is it amazingly fun to have and does it make me very happy, yes :D
It's interesting that the ZX4RR did not come up. The NA restriction makes it a little tricky, but within the bounds of the what the bike is able/supposed to make (75-80 hp) and the fact that it is unique in it's displacement/cylinder count, I would have been interested to hear what you guys think of that bike within the context of this discussion.
Interesting how differing regulations result in the US ZX4RR making far less power than the UK/European version while the new Ninja 500 is just the opposite (thank you Kawasaki for giving the US a "not restricted by A2 requirements" version).
To bring Turbo-Bruce fully circle, there is also a turbo kit for the ZX-4 in development...
Interestingly Zx4r came up atleast 3 times and from both of them. You did listen to the wrong podcast?
There's an entire HSLS dedicated to the zx4
@@brumfiba That was before it ever released
I bought a GSX-R1000 last summer to scratch the sportbike itch. Mind you I've been riding 30 years on everything from sportbikes to adv bikes and currently race hare scrambles on a 450 mx bike. I sold the GSX-R after a few months, it just wasn't much fun on the street. As soon as you get into the meat of the power you're already doubling (or tripling) the speed limit. I plan on replacing it with a more sensible Z900RS.
I was thinking about this bike while they were talking about torque. I did a review on my channel of my z900rs and I love it.
At 73 ft lb. of torque and 110hp it’s got the best of both worlds. Power all around the tach and it can get moving faster than I need to be on the road if I want it to.
The only down side is the anarchy throttle that can be easily be tuned with an ECU flash. Bathe flash is a definite requirement.
Back in the 70s when i started street riding on a Kawasaki G3SSD 90 with 9 hp it would do 60mph but the speed limit was 50 and it would do it all day. And when I upgraded to a RD350 that would do 105mph witch was fast enough, you couldn't do it all the time. So 45 years later my 2013 VT750RS has 46hp and i don't care how fast it goes, but it does the speed limit till the tank runs out.
Y'all didn't mention it, but in a world where everyone in America thinks 60-70 hp is a beginner bike I gotta wonder how long until America adopts a graduated licensing system like Europe & the UK where the law makes sure beginners are riding less powerful motorcycles.
No worries. Although we Europeans have that mentioned system, people still say that everything under 100 HP or 800cc is a beginner bike.
Some colleagues often said that my Versys 650 is not a "real motorcycle" and I should buy something like a 1250 GS or similar to ride a proper bike :D
We probably wont ever adopt a graduated system because most Americans sadly see bikes as toys and not transport.
Yea to me it's insane. Where I am and many other places in the world a beginner bike is 125cc.
I now ride an 800cc Adventure, which to me is a large bike. Middleweight in the class used to be 650cc making 40-60 horsepower. And the last few years it has become 900cc with 100 horsepower.
It will end up being state by state. Every state is a little different than how they license
@@sebbwebbo7557 Not true. I've been riding motorcycles since 1978. No one has ever said to me that everything under 100 HP is a beginner motorcycle.
My take on this is, I don't need a lot of horsepower to really enjoy what I do. I have a 2020 KTM 390 Adventure that I have put well over 40,000 miles on at this point. It's been ridden all over the US. And I'm happy with the bike.
A lot of people do seem to be content with that 390.
I rather have power that I can use. I had a fireblade and loved it, But max it out in first gear and you could be looking at prison with 5 gears still to use lol. I like big cylinders so go for thumpers or V -twins.
I’m selling my Concours 1400 for exactly that reason. I bought it because I’ve owned Z750 and a Honda 919, and I wanted a larger displacement in line four in my stable. After a season of owning it, I have realized that 150+ horsepower and 100 foot pounds of torque on a 600 pound bike is too much for me. Especially with that sweet smooth inline four. I haven’t gotten a speeding ticket in 20 years but holy shit it’s gonna happen on this bike. It is way too easy gear to go from 55 to 75 and not notice cause it’s only 300 RPM difference. I went for a ride today and I pulled out of my driveway in second gear. I wrote through town in second gear. I got on my secondary roads in second gear on the interstate 80 miles an hour in second gear. It’s just too much bike. When the only reason to ever shift is for fuel economy, I had to take a step back and realize that this is too much for me.
I’ve been riding for 30 years. I’ve owned 20+ bikes. I have 500,000 miles on my butt. I’m selling this bike and looking for another 919.
I've owned a handful of dozens of bikes from 90cc to 1274cc with 1 to 4 cylinders. When facing a choice between cc and handling[ CB550/750-Buell XB9XS/XB12] I went with the smaller engine. 550 to 650 is where I tend to land. This episode has been the best I've seen from you . Thank you. Thank you very much.
1:58:14 In reference to this guys question, I’m 31 years old with two kids under the age of 3. On a “break” from motorcycles, sold mine just before my oldest child’s first birthday. Bought a bicycle I could fit child’s seats on, which has become a very fun thing to do with my kids. I’m missing motorcycling a bit, which is a big reason why I listen to this podcast. But I just wanted to say I respect how you two handled that question, since it’s a difficult decision and reasonable people end up deciding different things for their own personal situations and reasons.
I miss my VFR 800 (1998). A regret I'll always have is selling it. I've been out of motorcycling ever since I sold in 2000. Then I got bit by the bug again like a bolt out of the blue this past Christmas. Love my Tuono 660.
concours 14 i have hopped up 160 +hp and suspension work can keep up with those sport bikes even with bags on in comfort - big girl but hold line great torqe is were it is street 100ftlbs ++ -perfect for short long twisties fun all one bike - great content here. cheers
I want Ari H. to install a turbo on my Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX!!!
Thanks Spurge for the idea!!
The Aprilia Tuareg 660 closely fits your specifications for an “ideal” ADV off-road oriented bike. It has 80 horsepower, an excellent suspension, good frame geometry, cruise control, tubeless tires, very good brakes and electronics (e.g., adjustable traction control, ABS, etc). Available OEM options include a quick shifter, heated grips and additional electronics (cell phone integration). With those accessories it is very similar in features to the KTM 890 Rally Adventure that Spurgeon owns, but with less horsepower. Many reviewers say the Tuareg is a well designed package, in much the same way that Spurgeon describes his KTM 890. I am shorter and smaller than Spurgeon and my Tuareg fits me well. I am guessing that the KTM 890 is a better fit to his body size (it is physically larger than I want).
Having owned a 1100XX myself I can tell you it's an incredibly gentle motorcycle to ride, both at low and higher speeds. you have to really push it to it's limits before it starts to feel intimidating. It's got a very comfortable low seat height and center of gravity but because of it's weight it can feel a bit slow on turn in. The only time it actually scared me shitless when was when I went flat out on a 1.5 mile long, straight stretch through a forest. it was a dead end due to roadworks, so no traffic. at 200mph (according to the speedometer) that road became real narrow.
In comparison my 1098S feels like it's got double the HP the blackbird had when in fact it's got less actually.
The question is a bit like if “If it’s too loud then you’re old”. Coming up on 54 and one of my bikes is a ZH2 SE. One is also a Honda Monkey so I run the gamut.
My first bike was a carbureted 2004 Ninja 500R. 50hp. 390 lbs. $4300 new. I commuted 120 miles a day on it. Did my first track day on it. Hit the Tail of the Dragon on it. Learned how to wrench on it. It lasted 109,000 miles before it finally died. Only negative was lack of aftermarket support unless you were tracking it as a street fighter.
Regarding your response to Andrew, I kinda went through the same thing. I rode motorcycles through the 70's, but got married and didn't ride for almost 30 years. At that time, I got back into it and now 15 years later, there are four in my garage.
To give an idea of how this is viewed by Old Farts: The Yamaha RD400s of the late 1970's were considered performance motorcycles. When I tracked down enough data, I discovered that the current Kawasaki Z400 has faster 0-60 and 0-100mph performance than the old RD400, but the Z400 is now considered a beginner bike. I had wanted a RD400 when I was a teenager and finally got that performance in 2020 when I picked up a Z400. Silly me, I thought that I was being generous to the dealer since the COVID shutdown had just started and that people would not be buying toys like motorcycles.
One of the most exhilarating bikes I’ve ever ridden was a 1970s Yamaha YDS7 250. No stopwatches we’re needed it just felt so fast.
Going out just now on my stock RD400 with a disadvantaged RD350 motor. Sucks gas that if I hit 65 miles before I hit reserve, that's a good day. Low twenties with even worse power.
@@kd350 A new RD400 had around 40hp at the rear wheel, IIRC, but yes, they never could go far on a tank of gas, although the last versions in the US had a slightly bigger tank. They could be tweaked for significantly more power, but stock, they claimed 44hp at the crank.
@@jfess1911 Recent new head gaskets has given me some good pulls between 6,5 and 8 rpm....Still leaks and I may sand the heads on some glass backed 200 grit.
I laughed out loud about Spurge's gas saving while commuting comment. i commute on my aprilia. i do struggle to match my gf's skoda's mileague. still there's the smiles per gallon ;)
Great episode!
About the ADV category, i got myself a KTM "22 890 ADV this summer, coming from an "19 Ninja SX. LOVED the SX, but for roadtrips two up riding, this just wasnt confortable for the SO, alone, i'd have kept it.
still, knowing it was way too much HP (142) already, but the sound and feel...
i like the KTM, just like. its very usable, i can do 2 up, long road trips, its kitted out with big windshield, confort saddle, big cases, the works. plenty of power even fully loaded, (but we're french, so there goes your point about US weight :D )
i hate the sound, especially down low, it rattle like a chainsaw, once you're in the rev (5k+), then its rocky and feels good, plenty stable and controlable, and VERY confortable. now the SO doesnt care that we're doing 90 mph+, before that she would moan at 90KPH on the SX.
i hate the unreliability of parts. i've had 3 seperate issues taken under warranty in less than a year, thanks to KTM being cheap on these models (as said coming straight from the ktm shop duder), and add to that the "electronics packs" that are physically installed but costed 1k more just to be activated which is a retarded move.
i would want to switch to a Versys 1000 if i could, but its just slightly off range money wise, and might loose some of the goods of the KTM that i may not fully appreciate yet.
this is always such a difficult thing !
hey, casual rider/physics appreciator here, ill just start by saying "5252", if you know, you know...
also congrats to Spurgeon and family!
Zack and Spurge, i honestly think its amazing how much you can beat around the bush, you guys are podcast Artists, you went the whole show without saying the 1 word that sums all this up, "...but would it have been as fun?"... one of the cheapest, easiest, most substantial ways to adjust your bikes characteristics...
!!GEARING(sprockets)!! its not only torque or hp that makes a difference, its the gearing. your 350 is not too much power, its too much speed, or, too long of a gear for that amount of power in tight tracks. similar thing with he road bicycle vs the 5hp scooter, the bicycle has the full set of driven gears as well as variable drive gears. longer gearing (big drive, small driven) for downhill making it faster with less power(an athletic human can generate around 2 hp) and very short gearing for uphill making it slower but still capable. the scooter is locked in to its narrower ratio and has to struggle to try and spinner faster even when its not taxed(downhill) due to more limited gearing(could be cvt, not sure).
power doesnt have to limit ability if it instead limits top speed, (and in the case of the 350 in the woods, it needs its top speed limited for comfort) if youre ok with going a slower pace even small power can be tuned to be useful. so the question becomes "how fast do you want to be able to go, on what type of terrain/load, and how fast do you want to be able to change speeds?"
if we increase power numbers we could still focus on a certain speed range but you can change speed much faster or carry more. in my opinion high horsepower is bad when gearing wont help enough and it needs an abundance of rider assists to manage it, it kinda becomes useless, you are buying multiple systems/mechanisms to fight the power you spent more on. meanwhile the same people want less government... **shrug** i dont pretend to understand people, but gears, i get.
as far as the ninja500; first, the numbers mean very little... its 451cc... and even that isnt enough info, whats the power and gearing?? if were gonna talk about 500s, kawasaki 500r(ex500 498cc 50hp) was the beginner size when i was too young and drooling (250r was a "girls bike", that was the early 90s), with todays components and quality(and price) im sure its more than approachable for a beginner, i started on a plated drz400e(43hp), its definitely gonna be more tame than that, not due to power, but gearing.
Hi, all. Great episode... which left we wondering: should we have a sip of coffee every time the SV650 gets yet another honorable mention?
My first bike was 883 Sportster, was told I would get bored of the power, never did love that bike and still ride it although I just recently upgraded to a zx4r, 70hp here and that is more than enough for me.
For Andrew, do not sell your bike, ride when you want. Make time for that hobby. You will never regret that. I do have regret, it was the first thing I bought after divorce. From a 50 year old guy that now lives at the beach and has two bikes! I gave up on the hobby of women and enjoy hobbies that I know I will be successful at and it's rewarding. Good luck with your choice.
My favorite bike so far is my Z 900 RS. 110 HP with stock exhaust and ECU. Plenty of power for everything I want a bike to do, but not too much. For me, 2nd gear power wheelies are not desirable, and would indicate excessive power.
YES! I had a busa for a very short time. Was reasonably comfortable, no vibration and whisper quiet. The transmission was pointless as it would go 110 in first gear. You could never explore the power without risking going to jail. Only kept it a few months.
Thanks so much, guys. An intelligent and honest discussion of a topic that draws too many extremes of view. My own evolution as a rider is still in the high horsepower phase, and I will tend that direction by default more than most, but my NC750 has it's own joys, and I can see a time when I go the V100 Mandello route and be Ok with about 100 hp.
I graduated high school on 1974. I had a Honda 350, and it was the biggest motorcycle in the high school, 350 pounds and 35 horsepower. When I sold Triumphs in the 90's, the starter bike was a 600 sport bike, 300 pounds, 110 horsepower. Anything smaller than a 600, was emasculating. I still maintain motorcycles should be in 350 to 500 cc class.
I ride a scrambler 1200. A weaker bike is unacceptable.
The biggest bike everyone was riding were Kawasaki mach3s when I graduated in 73. 😊
@@staffordvideoproductions5788 My brthers had 650 BSAs, but were not in high school.
I'm an old man & the Laverda was my favorite dream motorcycle when I was a young man. But it was pure unobtainium for someone in rural Iowa working at McDonalds for a whopping $1.65 an hour.
Wow you made $1.65 an hour. I worked for six months at a local burger shop had five raises and left making $1.25 an hour. I went to a union job paying $3.25 an hour. Circa 1973.
Owner of 21’ MT-09 & 20’ Softail Standard. I’d say sweet spot for hp and tq is as far as the brakes will take you. Neither of my bikes are rated well in the brake department. One has all the rider aids and the other has none. My Softail has been sitting in the corner of my garage for the better part of 3 years for a reason. Yes the MT accelerates faster than the brakes can make up for. But the brakes on the Softail are so bad that the tq will get you into trouble faster because it can’t scrub speed fast enough. Yes the weight makes a difference especially with a fatty like myself sitting on it, but the brakes on the Harley are so bad that you don’t feel the biting point
I rode the XSR700 at MotoGP in 2021 and it was a fun bike but I wanted more power the bike felt kind of flat, and I rode the Duke 390's that same weekend and railed on them and they were so fun. I literally rode the 390 twice because it was so fun while the 890 felt like I was going to wheelie right off, power doesn't always mean more fun or more ideal and I'm not entirely sure I'm able to determine exactly why. This year at MotoGP I rode the MT07 and MT09 and they were fun, but fell in love with the XSR900... so much so that I'm trying to buy one. Not for the power but because of all the rider aids, the IMU, the modes and cruise control, lightweight, good brakes. Just feels a step above everything else I'm ok with the complaints about a dip in the power around 4-7k rpm on the bike.
Taking my Ninja 400 to the track this year... Thanks for confirming my decision... I have sooo much to learn and NOTHING to prove!
I have been out of biking for a bit, my last bike was a ZX-7 - carbs, no electronics at all, 115hp, 230kg. Just bought a new Street Triple 765 120hp. It is unbelievably easy to ride so comfortable so smooth but I do miss the absolute solidity of the ZX7 front end in the turns …
I recently got a Honda Rebel 1100 which ‘only’ has 86hp and 72ft-lb torque which is almost twice the power of my last bike but slow compared to a lot of bikes out there and it’s absolutely bonkers fun to give it the full beans in sport mode. I can’t even imagine what liter bikes and the big KTM twins are like to ride.
Great discussion! In my fifties & sixties I rode a CBR954 with 135 hp on the dyno and eventually weighed 395# wet on the backroads of Vancouver Island. One day I rode a friend’s KTM 950SM, the last carbureted year with around 100 hp, but more torque. I had so much fun with that bike with zero scary moments. I wouldn’t’ say I had more fun on the KTM, it was different fun.
Funny, Adam Riemann recently did a little comparison between the new F900GS, a Tenere and old Africa Twin, and the power usability seems to top out at about 75HP.
Welcome back to Highside Lowside with Zack Courts and Spurge Manchu lol! The "babies on bikes" CTXP was probably the funniest episode yet, great fun! To start off answering the question no I don't think a motorcycle can have too much horsepower. However, it can have too much horsepower for the riders abilities. Scito te ipsum. Spurge you need to have Bruce turbo that track prepped Ninja 400 for you, should be spot on after that! lol Well Spurge Royal Enfield is making 400/450 adventure bikes and as far as I can tell they are selling quite well. Not to encourage spec sheet warriorism but both horsepower and torque are important to look at when choosing a motorcycle. Been a minute since we've had an Uncle Bob story, more of that please! The Ninja 500 isn't a 500 its a 450 and shame on Kawasaki for cheating up! Sounds like V-twin cruiser maybe a Harley but could be done up to resemble a Harley. Also, sounds older like from the 70's maybe. Wrong again I'm worse at this than the hosts lol! I concur Spurge I don't think you can make a Spyder sound like that no matter how hard you try. Congratulations are in order for Mr. and Mrs. Dunbar! May your first child be a masculine child lol! Spurgeon Dunbar Jr. Jr. coming soon to HS/LS!
As an owner of a gen 3 Hayabusa.....
No.
They cannot. :)
I own both an MT-10 and a Ninja 650, and on most tight, technical backroads, I'd prefer the Ninja 650, all day long. It's so forgiving and yet so capable and confidence inspiring at the same time, which just makes it a more enjoyable recreational riding experience.
thats the reason why mt07, z650 and sv650 are so popular. Enough power on the streets to be as fast as any superbike if ridden by a good rider and enough power for solo motorway cruising at 140kmh while being extremely reliable, good on fuel, low maintnance and good torq across all rev range making city progressio effortless. I still have a 300cc scooter and had a cbf500, bandit 1200 and recently a 2004 sv650. My next bike is gonna be a z650 or gsx8s because from my experience, something between 70-90hp is perfect for a fun naked light bike
Bought new and another refurbished set of DT50/LCs are my fun bikes. Claimed 7.4hp equates to 145hp/liter! Six speeds, Liquid cooling, monoshock, 31" seat height, tach/speedo,temp guages. The tooth up one will bury the speedo past the limit and catch up to traffic in a 50 zone.
Started out on a 35hp 2018 KLR 650. Put 10k miles on it. Just bought my 2nd bike 105hp KTM 790 duke. Amazing machine. I’ll never use its power to its full potential on the roads but it is nice to finally be able to pass comfortably.
I've been watching LS/HS for years and the trivia episode is my all time favorite and (in my opinion) set the bar for all other episodes to aspire to! Anyone that did not enjoy the trivia episode is a douche! Thank You🤠
I hated the trivia episode. What was it ten questions? And they sat there unsure of their guess for ten minutes before they finally revealed the answer? That whole thing could have been done and over in twenty minutes. What a monumental waste of time! Time that could have been spent talking about motorcycling! They should have just discussed the answers and done away with the forty five minutes of people saying "hm I'm not sure!..... Hmmm....hmmm.....hmmm...."
Congrats to spurge and the family.
Currently loving my Duke 390 as first bike.
I'm not sure what my next bike will be but prob will be double or triple the HP. Looking at bikes like rs660, xsr900, cb650r, tuareg, t7. Im not yet sure on the type of riding i like the most.
I love smaller displacement, lower HP bikes that couple it with low weight...but not for where I currently live. 4 hours of dull interstate, soul-crushing drone to get to the first curve that is not an on or off ramp (and the odd traffic circle) had me selling my Z400 after only 4200 miles. If I lived in Knoxville, TN or Silver City, NM I would still have it.
With variations of Adventure Sport Tourers (soft Adventure bikes) from 80-150 HP and the 5th gen VFR800 that I currently own, I am pretty sure my 80 hp Triumph Tiger Sport 660 is exactly as fun when I get to the twisties as the 2010 Multistrada, 2006 Buell Ulysses, and 1999 VFR800...and they are all about the same level of capable to get to those far away curves. Each feels totally different doing both roles. Now, have not long distanced or canyon carved the 138K mile 1999 BMW R1100GS so will let you know where it slots after my 6500 mile August trip.
It's horses for courses, at the end of the day. All of my riding is back roads or in town, going down the shops or around to a mate's place. I honestly doubt that I've done an hour on the freeway in the last 6 months. My bike is a 47hp Kawasaki W800. It's perfect for my use case, but use cases vary. If I was spending hours on the freeway each week, I'd go for something with more power and a fairing.
I always have to have a stupid fast bike, that isn't the race replica. However, there is a certain enjoyment and winding your bike out past more than the first two gears. That's where the 80 horsepower Cruiser comes in.
If I had to pick just one it would be the fast bike, but if that fast bike didn't exist I could see being entirely happy with 100hp.
75hp cruiser here. Agreed.
Although, I "always have to have" a low maintenance bike with locking bags that's 99% dependable.
Wouldn't mind a Ninja 1000SX though....
IMO, the 750 size class is perfect for sports and standards on the street. Unfortunately, only Aprilia seems to take this class seriously, and their engines are a bit smaller. Even Triumph with the world beating 765 refuses to give it any model variations (like a fully faired option) or the good tech (like cruise control).
I have a rule, I won't buy a new bike that doesn't have cruise control. Do you need it, no, but it's a great QoL improvement and indicative of how seriously the brand is treating the model. If it has throttle-by-wire (almost all models), cruise control is trivial. Yet, except Aprilia, it's only available on flagship models. Ducati won't even put it on the Supersport and Triumph charges $2,400 for the privilege (which should be standard). Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha all have multiple new models in the size class and none offer cruise control.
Grats Spurg
Chasing horsepower for the sake of chasing it is the reason we have an emergence of small displacement machines imo. To a counterpoint, manufacturers have to do something to make people want to buy new bikes..what a conundrum!
I reckon that Royal Enfield have put the wind up the big four and others with their return to the market. Small to mid capacity bikes with reasonable performance and at a very good price point. All of a sudden you can buy a bike that you can afford, you can learn to ride on and with enough performance that it will suffice for some time to come.
So I’ve had a lot of bikes (23) since 2018. Started small worked my way up and then had plenty of 1000cc bikes. However I currently think I have a near perfect garage, I have an adventure bike, CFmoto 450ss (street bike), and a 1981 Kawasaki kz750e (street bike or that time). I find in the street bike class that no one needs more than a middle weight bike. Which is why the middle weight class is so juicy right now with some heavy hitters coming out. When it comes to cruisers and adventure the cc’s can vary so much depending on what you’re doing. That’s my opinion but I think that’s pretty level for what is being said.
You answered the question in the first segment. Improvements in enginge management, braking systems, tyres and chassis design mean that 200+ hp bikes are much safer in a lot of ways than many older bikes.
There is also definitely "too much", because i doubt many manufacturers want to start making 250+ hp bikes that smoke rear tyres in about 500km.
I started riding in 1972 so my views are biased but I think the 1975 Yamaha XS650B is close to perfect for a street bike. It’s not too big for commuting and it’s not too small for touring. Today, the Royal Enfield 650 is in that niche.
If someone today would look at the 1973 Honda SL-350 as inspiration and make an air-oil cooled 650 in that vein, that might be perfect.
I used to ride a Kawa ZRX1100 limited to 100hp as per the law in France at the time. It was a very pleasant bike to ride. The power was right there at 2000 revs and I would usually shift up at 3000. I loved that bike as I don't like to have to rev up the engine in order to get performance. I never ever used all the power, but loved to feel that excess power was there. I did need to pay attention in the rain though. Plenty of low down torque meant that the rear wheel would spin on wet surface at low speed, unless I was very careful with the wrist twist.
Also, rode a 110cc in Thailand for six months as a daily rider. It was awesome, didn't really need more power, and the fuel economy was unbelievable - unlike the Kawa which was unbelievable as well but in the opposite direction 😄😄
I’m a little surprised that this is so topical. I switched from a 2009 Harley Davidson Streetbob that probably had about 80hp to a 2022 BMW R 1250 RS a couple of years ago. I have felt a bit of envy that so many bikes have so much more hp these days. 160hp plus seems like the norm, but that’s liter plus bikes I suppose. I love having the 136hp and 105 ft lbs of torque of the RS. It feel like it is a very practical and usable amount of power that allows for plenty of roll on passing power I don’t have to downshift in most cases, but if I do it gets that shiftcam kick that rockets it past whatever I need to get around. It seems like more than enough power for me frankly, but I still sort of lust after say a BMW XR 165hp. I think I might enjoy the extra torque more than the marginal hp gain however.
It's eye opening going back in time and looking at what people toured on back in the 1970s. Everyone had motorcycles absolutely HEAPED with heavy sleeping bags, tent rolls, bags, etc and sometimes a pillion.....and they made it across the country JUST FINE.
A bike like a Kawasaki W800 or Royal Enfield were considered perfectly adequate and ALL the Japanese manufacturers made parallel twins that were around 50 hp.
A BMW R90 was considered a top-of-the-line tourer.
Today, I myself have a Super Tenere and just cannot see the need for a BMW GS with more than 150HP.
I don't think a GS has more than 150 hp. In the 70s there were a whole lot less cars and traffic was a lot slower. A modern car is fast without trying. You don't want to be a rolling roadblock.
I have two bikes in the garage--a 1500cc Suzuki twin and my little Honda CB 300 R. For most rides, the little thumper is just fine.
Laverda Jota was my first guess .. because of the loping idle …. all more modern triples are much smoother sounding after start up……
While I was watching this. I was thinking. That's how I feel about a 98 vfr800 I fixed up last year as A second bike. And then out of no where you mention the exact bike lol. I love the bike for all the reasons you did. Perfect mix and always power
the new 900GS actually ticks a lot of zac's boxes! adam reimann gave it a good review thwacking it off road and it still has a lot of the fancy farkles... chris eades loved it on the spanish launch too...
Answering your call for more feedback on the trivia episode...
It was good. Maybe learn from the few mistakes, tighten up some rules and do it again. It's Zack and Spurge. It's entertainment. It's about bikes. What's not to like?
Some of my favorite motorcycling adventures have been on a 223cc 10-20 hp scrambler
Such a great topic. Normal road riding, locally, the desert X with 110hp seems perfect, with a bit of off-road and canyon fun too.superb. Full off-road, the husky 350, seems great for everything, just change the front sprocket for faster runs…… but out doing longer than an hour, with my wife on the back (she’s only 115lbs) then the Ducati multi V2, and even 1250GS seemed too slow, and too asthmatic if you have to make a pass on a long uphill at 80mph, whereas the multi V4 makes it so much easier…..and for that reason more relaxing.
really?? is your wife a sumo wrestler???? i barely notice a lag passing uphill at 80 on my rc390 with my gf on the back, and ive even gone down in the rear sprocket...
@@babyfknblu everything is relative….. you can pass on a hill “without feeling it” but in relative terms you will still be ragging it on a 390, even without a pillion, with very little surplus acceleration available. Both the multiV2 and the 1250GS will find it far easier than your 390, but if you try it on my tweaked V4s then you’ll understand what I mean.
I’m not saying you can’t do it on the 390, or that it wouldn’t be fun, of course it would, it’s a great bike……but it ain’t the same, nor very “effective” for the scenario I’m describing.
@@alanprice9938 i see... im just impressed you're able to perceive anything at all when the v2 is already a torque and hp monster to me...
@@babyfknblu indeed, they’re all great bikes, but to pull well on the 1250 or V2 uphill at high motorway speed, you’d need to knock it down a few cogs and rev hard. On the V4 it’ll breeze by in top, but if you knock it down a cog or two, you’ll be by in the blink of an eye without even feeling the hill. I don’t know where you ride, but I’m in the south of France, amongst the mountains, and we have many long uphill sections that can last a long time, so the high speed pull of the bike can transform the ride, whereas too little pull can become very tedious, if you have to work at it more, or if you need to make quick passes. In these conditions I find the V2 and 1250GS relatively slow.
Torque is so underappreciated. Torquey bikes are so much fun for everyday riding.
dunno - it's all people talk about. It is fun, but so is winding up a mid displacement I4. But it is easier to make a euro compliant twin than a 4 - so twins and torque rule the roost.
It's an incredible coincidence that I was listening to this exact podcast and I found myself sitting at a red light behind a restored Laverda Jota 1000!
I've been considering a Honda NC750, and I am not going to worry about 58hp being too little anymore. Why oh why did I ever think that would be a problem coming from a 50cc moped?
990 2024 duke is a joy to ride, its telepatic and super tractable ( i just rode it for 50 miles and its on break in time but still)
First I have to say I appreciated the discussion but I feel like it got boiled down into how much hp do you “need” and away from how much is too much.
I enjoy the whole range on 2 wheels. I have owned a Vespa 300 that had 23hp and I still own a K1600 that has 160hp. Both are perfect tools for different jobs.
The real answer is I don’t think 160hp is too much. In the K1600 6 cylinder it has power at any RPM but it’s not crazy unless you want it to be.
That however gets into the discussion of power to weight ratio and gearing.
rode Honda "postie" 110cc at a mates farm and the old XL500 he had got myself an XR400 as my first bike. XR400 isn't the most fun in traffic or on road so I got an R3 to go with it. Tenere 700 might be the next bike or R9 if it ever gets announced
It's somewhat frustrating here in Australia because a lot of bikes in that 60-80hp range are only sold as power restricted learner legal variants. I'd love around 70hp but with a few exceptions it's either 45hp or 90+.
I personally never got caught up in motorcycle stats. I have a 800cc with 110HP. I still remember fondly the many times I rode 125cc and 350cc bikes. Those give so much fun for a much lower cost.
The 2 stroke bikes from the ‘90s were insane. Smaller displacement bikes that hit the powerband in a huge way. A 2 stroke back then would sputter around even at WOT till the powerband. At that point, a CR80 would launch an adult off the back in a heartbeat. They have come a long way over the years.
Kawasaki sells the new KX115 now.
There’s also the 49-state/California thing. My friend was taking care of their elderly parent in the Midwest, when they saw an add for a Ninja 400. What they didn’t realize was that Kawasaki sells a California, and a 49-state version. California doesn’t allow used 49-state motorcycles with less than 4,700 miles on the odometer to be brought into the state. So, yeah the Iowa model of the Ninja 400 isn’t allowed to be brought into California.
Not enough brains are the issue, not "too much horsepower".
The twistgrip does go both ways?😅
power to weight matters: when i got my 1st road bike on a full license i was 17, it was 1993 and i rode an RGV250 - that is a supremely fast bike for someone who is legal and it is very lightweight of course which means it whooped everything in most places, i would take that any day over a modern bike that kids like me would buy nowadays with large capacity and larger weight
my 500ktm has 64 hp and weighs 109kg roughly - work it out 🙂 - the acceleration on that thing in any gear is insane on the roads, of course off road is even more pure exhilaration
Rule of thumb. 250 two-stroke = 500 4our stroke with cams, , headers, exhaust and intake tuned for peaky high rpm power. At very least it's like doubling the rpm, since it fires twice as often at given rpm, so double the displacement to get same power increase.
The power these days are so good on the more powerful bikes, like more manageably tractable or more tractably manageable, I just hope my explaining is understood to anyone reading this. Love the video take on this topic, of Can Motorcycles Have Too Much Horsepower, Spurg and Zack!
The torque part of the question is kinda funny and more interesting because with it being a physical force, there is a literal minimum required to counteract the force from wind and friction and all that. In theory, you could ask the question “what top speed do you want” for a given total weight and frontal area, figure out the required rpm the wheels would have at that speed and how much torque you would need to match any resistance and then you could solve for how much horsepower is “enough”.
So you're bringing logic, math and physics into an emotionally charged topic.... 🧐 😜
Not torque, power. Torque is a measurement of an applied force. Power is a measurement of work done over time.
I'm on a 2022 KLR 650, and my only worry is that my doohickey is out of adjustment. I cracked the case open to check it last week and found out 😅
I'm as susceptible to the more hp marketing play as anyone and I'd personally like a few more hp in my already 160hp Multi... but a couple observations:
-You can have a crazy day of riding shenanigans on a 50hp 240lb Supermoto... and I think there are some very good arguments that the 73hp 340lb Supermoto from the same vendor is actually LESS capable and less fun... even with a 33% horsepower advantage.
-On the street, I would likely be susceptible to a license destroying ticket in nearly EVERY situation where I was using all 210'ish hp of the S1000RR I had a blast riding at VIR. I can't imagine a situation where I could go WOT and actually use that power and still be at street legal speeds... in fact most of those bikes won't even let you use that power until you're in a higher gear... AND that bike can get you a ticket on pretty close to every road in the US in first gear.
Offroad it's not even debatable IMO... weight is king, power is good as long as it has minimum effect on weight... OFFROAD the enduro version of that 50hp SM above eats the 73hp enduro version of the 73hp SM above... for... lunch... no contest. That 100lb weight difference is HUGE whereas the 23hp advantage is mostly "impossible to use".
Conditions and mission determine power needed!
Sorry late to the party, I'm a bit behind on my podcasts. If you do another trivia game, why not do a listener submitted questions one. I'm sure producer Chase won't mind going through all of em and picking the best ones 😅
In 1981 I had a job convincing my mother as an 18 year old, one leg in plaster cast that buying a Yamaha XT500 after wrapping my RD400f Daytona around a lamp post that the 500 is much less power than the 400.
I love the comments about chassis over horsepower. I am currently riding a 2007 ninja 650. The power is about perfect but I would love better suspension and chassis. Anyone have a good recommendation?
Zach, you're killing me. That is exactly what the v85 TT is. You've never given it a chance come ride mine in Colorado and that's exactly what you'll get. An 800cc air-cooled GS with all the fancy stuff. Heated grips, cruise control. I'm just so surprised by your view of that bike. I invite you. Come on out, do your daily ride and ride my v85 TT. 80 horsepower shaft drive all the stuff
I test rode a V85TT after working out it was my ideal bike. I was so disappointed.
@@davidmatthews3093 well that's a bummer. I have to admit mine is far from stock. And it amazes me as an all around adventure bike. Very capable. I just got done doing the Colorado dirty dozen.
Zach did a daily rider review of the V85TT already
@@Daschickenify thank u. I'm aware. There's a difference between one of the dealer demo floor and one that's been set up just right. Like 30% better. Anyway I have always wanted Zach to see this bike as a newer version of his dad's bike. The one he went home to ride. Simple, but modern. Exactly what he described as optimal. An 80hp vtwin, air cooled (GS like). I've owned 15 or so adventure style bikes and I can't say that any of them have come close to the class and character and or over all ability. Other than "hard Enduro" it's done it all in the mountains of Colorado. Not optimally but capably. If you go and find the motogeo series called "the dirty dozen" I've done all that without issue. It's more capable that people give it credit
Horsepower sales the machine but the torque wins the races! And I love my 2022 KTM 1290 Super Adventure R!
I've found that anything over 300 horses power it makes it hard to keep the baby seat sturdy
Having test rode a Honda Blackbird and a BMW R1250R, the Blackbird does feel heavy and difficult to go through highish speed tighter corners 60-80mph. It's very stable and wants to sit you upright the whole time, which makes sense for its high top speed. But it's not enjoyable on the road anywhere near as much as as a 2021 electronic suspension BMW 1250 with less HP but more torque at the top end and through the rev range 😎
You guys need to live in Germany for a few years. I had an Adventure 1190s and it was nice to be able to cruise at 120MPH/200KPH at 70% throttle. I had a BMW S1000RR and as an autobahn cruiser, yes it still was too much power. 150/160HP at the crank of an ADV was about right for the autobahn. For a smaller bike like the Triumph Street Triple RS, 120ish at the crank is about right to cruise at 200KPH with a max speed of 250KPH. Yes the BMW s1000rr had to much poser even for the Autobahn, 200 is a good cruise speed at 250 you have just enough time to react to someone cutting your off. At 280KPH you're really risking your life because motorist passing can't comprehend the closing speed.
i also went from a well set up 1090r to a now well set up for me 901 uncorked & Tractive biongers which are great but id love to ride that Rally with the WP-PRO boingers one time to see what im missing . the cost of that swap for my 901 was double the cost of Tractive so i just couldnt justify it , i am happy with the result but will always wonder..... but i agree chassis and suspension make more diff esp off road than hp ever will its always a compromise , if your off road always 70hp is more than enough but then jump onto the highway and try passing cars = i love the 100+hp so ?
I have a question I feel never is answered in any videos I have seen. I'm 6 feet tall and around 280lb should the motorcycle have more power just because of my weight? Zack is tall but a light weight compared to me and often mentions his weight. So what would be a good motorcycle for me looking for a daily commute, and occasional road trip, maybe with my girlfriend on the back?
P.S not looking for a cruiser, also not trying to be leaned over too far. I am 50+ after all...lol
My friends say I need big CC's at my weight but I don't want to kill my self by getting more then I can handle 😢
From reports I have viewed the new Honda Translap 750 would meet most of your criteria with the possible exception of being lightly sprung for your weight. But with its low price even adding in a suspension uprade it would still be good value and most reviewers praise its on road characteristics.
The more I ride the more I think that 60-70 HP should be enough for any bike to have fun.
True for canyon riding, not so much for interstate open highway with a load . 100-140 hp is great for that especially if riding two up with luggage. I have two bikes that fit both categories
Went from weestrom 650 and wanted a bike that could handle highways better and ended up with a n1k. Too much power imo for my daily commute. Now I’m considering going to a versys 1000 or vstrom1050 because I want to ride more comfortably when I have 2 up. The only reason I don’t want a smaller engine is because I love the low and mid range torque which is beneficial for when I go 2 up. So with that said, I feel roughly 100hp and 70 torque is near the perfect amount for 2 up highway riding and solo riding probably closer to 80 hp and 60 torque. I care more about low and mid range torque numbers that is flat and just a good amount of hp for highway riding. I see myself going from sport touring to cruiser riding in a few years. I’m trying to avoid it lol
Nothin' new...I bought and still have period RD350 and 400s. Yamaha stroked the 350 using the same piston/bore increasing mostly torque. They also made the latter heavier and larger for 6' Americans. I still have a bit of trouble swinging a leg over the 400D whereas the Daytona's seat is a bit easier. The Daytona has pollution abatements, the first such bike to have such. My RZ is the first bike with air injection and a catalytic converter installed from new. Noted they did drop back to the 64/54 bore and stroke of the original 350. Pistons from the '73 to the latest Banshee quad all work.
I agree what you sad in 58’20” we need a lighter les powerful adventure bike (if possible a parallelle-twin, and a 6th gear with overdrive for them faster street section)… with a good sub frame. Not the compromise Itchy Boots is riding on the Honda 350 rally, that’s a dull machine with not teeth.