Landing the Space Shuttle Was Way Different Than a Tomcat
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- Опубликовано: 28 мар 2024
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After reading another RUclipsr's tweet comparing a Tomcat pilot-turned-astronaut's experiences landing the F-14 to the space shuttle, Mooch is motivated to create this episode about the difference based on his experiences as an F-14 RIO and flight in the shuttle training aircraft.
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It's giving only 30% off when I go to the link.
There's an excellent 12 y old yt video of a presentation titled "how to land the space shuttle ... from Space" that goes into more detail about energy management etc. during landing.
Anonymous: Hullo
The Nose wheel is more complicated than you suggest, de-rotation has to happen at 180 knots, no faster, no slower.
The short nose-gear results in the nose being lower and negative angle of attack on the wings. So touching the nose wheel down going too fast means the negative lift will overstress the front gear. If you take too long, then you run out of airspeed and the nose falls through the negative lift portion of the derotation, again, overstressing the gear. And of course if the rotation is performed too fast then the gear hits too fast.
By the time Scott was flying the space shuttle they had developed a portable flight simulator for use on orbit. After two weeks in space they wanted to be able to practice the approach and landing, since they only had one chance to get this right. So there are photos of Scott Altman flying a laptop based simulator on the flight deck of the shuttle in space.
Hmm that tweet ward was talking about sounded a lot like scott manley oh look here he is
Oh man I forgot about that simulator!
Not very anonymous 😂
The other (anonymous) Scott who shall not be named. Nice guy. Fly safe!
The crowd wonders... how will this fight be settled? Stick time is the only answer. It's either flight time in Scott's Aerospool or simulator time on Mooch's DCS rig.
This is one of The Best channels on RUclips.
I cannot understand why you've not yet hit TEN million subscribers!
Fabulous content, consistently.
Thank you so much 😀
Thank YOU so much,!happy Easter!!😂😊❤
Why not 100 million? You saying Ward doesn’t have what it takes?
Couldn't agree more!
Doesn't matter how many times I see details of a shuttle landing, it's always just fantastic how they got that all to work. Imagine the early conversations of that concept. Because of the number of successful missions, it kind of became normalized, but it was anything but that. "When super-science, mingles with the bright stuff of dreams."
Right! Especially since computers were just starting to get big and powerful (I guess small and powerful 😉)
*Rush reference noted
Excellent dedication the Space Shuttle crews that were lost.
Yes indeed. I'm a bit misty eyed for some reason.
The Tomcat would be waaayyyyyy easier to land than the Space shuttle for the simple reason, that you can execute a missed approach in a Tomcat, but not in a Space shuttle.
Meh…shuttle landings are done in optimal conditions…more controlled…landing on a pitching deck in wx at night is the hardest thing to do in aviation…besides maybe tanking in similar conditions…..from what I understand.
@@Lukeduke7773 one if an aircraft design to fly on its own, the other is a brick that is just barely able to not fall out of the sky.
That doesn't make it easier. That makes it less risky and gives you more opportunities to get it right.
@@ABaumstumpfmuch like a carrier landing is a controlled crash, the shuttle was a literally a collection of bricks, i.e., Ceramic tiles, held together by firefighter jackets that were painted white 😂.
@@Lukeduke7773 are they? I mean in optimal weather conditions, yes, but if it was optimal beyond that then Columbia would be in a museum.
At de-clutter, it’s speed on the left and altitude on the right, instead of vertical speed. R means radar altitude.
I have noticed the same, for sure the are not touching down at 4 feet per minute
The Shuttle looks like a terrifying thing to fly. By my estimation, anyone who flew that thing were among the bravest of the brave.
I’ve heard Scott Manley describe the shuttle landing more elegantly and correctly. He knows the nose is kept high until it can’t be kept up and falls. He’s just using narrative tools to further over connect things that are connected already.
I’ve never flown the Shuttle, but I’ve got a fair number of traps at the boat.
I’ve always said that what makes carrier landings difficult are the conditions. Even on a CAVU day, the air behind the ship is angry, the rooster tail and burble will force you to be on your A-game, especially when the ship is making its own wind.
Had the distinct pleasure of two line periods in the Southern Pacific that were almost entirely MOVLAS/pitching deck. We were a typhoon magnet that deployment, and we had some days where you could just barely see the top of the rudders on HUD footage. Negative hook to ramp clearance, getting waved off because you’re out of sync with the deck, long bolters…at night and in the driving rain. “99 taxi lights on…” Nasty deck heave in addition to Dutch roll.
And while many of the commenters here are correct, we can technically go-around at the ship…taking your own waveoff (initiating your own go-around without being waved off by paddles) is strictly forbidden. It is a truly heinous feeling continuing a pass that you know is thoroughly f***ed but paddles hasn’t yet pickled you…
Holy crap. I had no idea the pilot can’t make the call to go around. That must be terrifying. What is the reasoning behind that? Is it to force a pilot with cold feet to get down?
The space shuttle is basically a flying brick but when done right its just so graceful. A carrier landing is a bit more abrupt but done right its the coolest thing you will ever see.
Since you are talking about Navy astronauts, perhaps you can do an episode on Captain Laurel Clark [nee Salton]. Laurel perished over Texas when the Columbia broke up. Laurel was a Navy captain and doctor. She was the first woman to qualify as a diving medical officer. I had the pleasure of having lunch with her in the wardroom at the Holy Loch. Laurel was the Squadron 14 Medical Officer while I was one of Squadron 14 weapons tech reps. Being an ex-navy enlisted man and knowing some of the tenders divers because we used to be shipmates, I heard what the divers really thought. They all thought Laurel was the best. Being a person in your position I have no doubt that you can put together enough material in my friend Laurel to make an interesting episode.
Go navy
I probably should add, I knew Laurel as Doc Salton. I never ran into her again once she left the Holy Loch to become an Airdale doctor. The guy she married I understand was also an Airdale type Navy captain, so if you know a Captain Clark, you may already know her husband.
Laurel was a good friend and co-worker at JSC. I cried like a baby when they were lost.
@@steveblack5066I know that feeling.
@@steveblack5066 steve did you know KC? She went to the same college as my English teacher in high school, they were classmates
@@sidv4615 Katie Coleman? We had met in meetings, nothing more. Sat between Laurel and KC is a long design review. What a hoot!
Man, the things you've seen and done. Wish we all could experience it.
Nice job, Ward. I was a RIO with VF-51 (left the squadron just before Scooter got there) and two cruises followed by a decade as an astronaut trainer at JSC which included ascent and abort related manual flying skills and lots of time flying and landing the Shuttle Mission Simulator. Also smuggled some pilot time in the Navy's F-14 pilot sims (including the 3d ACM sim at NKX) and fly DCS now (which is remarkably close to what I remember, especially when landing). A friend of mine mentioned the tweet you're referring to and here was a my response. "Maximum allowable sink rate for landing the shuttle without breaking something was 6 feet per second with most of the landings occurring in the 3 fps range. Nosegear lowering was typically done using beep trim and target rate max was 2 deg/second (would have to calculate the actual descent rate), though there have been harder. As someone aboard several hundred shipboard traps, the descent rate actually is increasing slightly with touchdown at approx 600 fpm (10 fps) with maximum aircraft capability at about 2.5 times that. Full disclosure; I’m not a Scott Manley fan since he dramatizes things a bit too much for my tastes." I take your 700 fpm descent rate number as more accurate than mine since it comes from me looking at the VSI close in but switching my focus to the actual touchdown and what I really needed to be paying attention to. BTW, I got two flights in the STA as an observer and knew Frank Culbertson quite well; I trained him up when he was flying and then worked for him in Shuttle Safety when he came over there.
2h
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Edited
My Uncle was also in VF-51 the Screeming Eagles during Vietnam. He was Commander Robert Griesser.
where did you copy paste this from?
A reply I made to a friend’s Facebook post.
Thanks for this, Mooch. Working for Lockheed Missiles & Space Co, now Lockheed-Martin, was my first job out of college. I was assigned to Systems Engineering on the Hubble Space Telescope Program and tasked with tracking and resolving HST/STS interface issues. I've been to JSC, and been priviledged to witness several Shuttle launches at KSC, but was never there to see it land. Working on HST inspired me to switch from Engineering to Physics. I left Lockheed and went back to school, worked on a Physics PhD for several years and eventually got hired by AFFTC at Edwards to do engineering again. (It felt kinda weird as I had spent my entire life up to that point dreaming of command at sea, but wound up a camp follower in a sandbox watching a bunch of blue suits go racing over my head.) Anyhow in 2001 I finally got to see the Shuttle land from a very special vantage point: the roof of the building where I worked at Edwards.
I never saw the Shuttle land except on tv, but many times I heard the double sonic booms as it dropped down below the sound barrier. Edwards AFB is 80 miles from home, but would still sometimes rattle windows. I think the Shuttle did turns over Los Angeles to lose speed so may have been closer.
I watched the Endeavour fly piggyback over LA and Orange Counties on its last flight before going to the California Science Museum in Exposition Park. I was part of the crowd as Endeavour was moved on the streets from LAX through Westchester at night.
The foremost authority on solar X-ray spectroscopy has a channel. Keith Strong was director at LMSAL - now retired and lecturing. He and Dr. Loren Acton tried out as astronaut candidates for a shuttle mission.
I was lucky enough to hear Scott speak as a kid at school from the same hometown, I remember him joking that the shaky landing at the beginning of Top Gun was easy to shoot because he just executed his normal pass
Great video. One point I only recently learned is that there are no retraction mechanisms for the Space Shuttle landing gear. While almost everything in the shuttle was fly by wire, the landing gear was an exception with an independent electro-hydraulic-mechanical system. The reasoning was to mitigate the possibility of a “single event upset” or a cosmic ray toggling a control bit.
My reference for this is astronaut Bruce Melnick being interviewed on the youTube video “Insane Engineering of Orbit”on the Real Engineering Channel about 6 minutes in.
I don't buy it. The crew is more likely to go mad and drop the gear inappropriately before the triple redundant computers fail
Hey Ward - Once upon a time I worked as an Instructor in the SMS (Shuttle Mission Simulator). To your point regarding the “tweet”, Scooter (you probably knew him as Dancing Bear) didn’t “plant” anything. The Shuttle video used in the comparison is from the STS-125 landing on Edwards RWY 22. Scooter’s landing was well within family with Main Gear Touchdown at 2.5 feet per second (relatively smooth) and Nose Gear Touchdown at 6.3 feet per second (well within the norm).
My 2 cents 😊
Mr. Kirkman is the real deal. I learned a lot about the shuttle program from him on the shuttle forums at nasaspaceflight.
Mooch, great content on the shuttle landing system. But, most grateful for the dedication of the Challenger and Columbia crews. Never forget.
How can we, when you guys can't help but bring them up, whenever you see or hear the words "space shuttle"???
@@codymoe4986 Because, while discussing the amazing tech and mystique that is/was STS, there was tragedy and personal loss. To forget or dismiss the latter is to diminish those that continued to fly on her after that deadly risk was exposed.
Astronauts also trained on the large motion simulator at Ames Research Center in Mountain View CA. I got my son a ride in it. He wanted to do the shuttle landing but that sim was down so he did a ride on a helicopter sim.
Thanks Ward. Ever since we lost Gus Grissom, Ed White, and Roger Chaffee on the launch pad back in January 1967 I get "racked" when thoughts of our astronaut losses come to mind. The triumphs of our space programs far exceed the losses, however. I am thrilled to watch as we progress to manned flights which will again take us out of orbit.
I knew it was Scooter from the thumbnail! Scooter was one of my project pilots for F-14D Air-to-Ground weapons certification program at Pax. Great guy!!!
Excellent analysis of the shuttle landing. Definitely one of the most difficult landings of a flying machine ever!!!! Those who flew the shuttle are amazing pilots with nerves of steel. Thank you.
I never would've guess you had the opportunity to train at NASA. That's awesome
I got to fly the Sim in Houston, I was making some educational software with NASA and the CSA (we were a Canadian company). I got to do a de-orbit burn and landing in Florida, it didn't take long to fly over Texas! I did the S-Turns fine but I flared too hard on the final approach and the trainer said "We're going up!" and I reacted too hard and pushed the stick forward and blew out the front undercarriage. The HUD just went into a 'X' and Mission Control came over the headset "Congratulations, you just crashed the Space Shuttle". Still one of my favorite memories, I had so much adrenaline pumping through my system when I signed the guestbook that it looks like a crackhead signed the book (Moby was on the opposite page, he had visited earlier). They mix-n-match the Shuttle crews for training so that they don't get 'comfortable' with each other, and the commander of the crew training before us was Rick Husband. History can be crazy, shaking his hand after he's training for the mission that will unfortunately take his life.
I've been around aviation in one way or another for all of my 59 years, civilian and military. These days I watch most RUclips videos on the subject to critique what they get wrong. Mooch's videos are one of the rare cases where I still learn things. I enjoy them thoroughly. Great work!
There is a book called “Into the black” by Rowland White about the shuttle program and it has some really interesting chapters about the concept and design of the practice aircraft and how they made it. It’s a Fantastic book all around too definitely worth reading
My favourite book. Love the anecdotes, especially from Joe Engle and Richard Truly regarding their simulator sessions for the ALT missions. If I’m not mistaken (been a while since I read it) Engle replaced the joystick backwards and flew the landing perfectly with the controls reversed. Think how difficult that is ! That’s why these guys were in that left seat.
The drogue chute was first used on Endeavour’s maiden voyage, STS-49 in May, 1992. The shuttle flew for 11 years without it.
Thank you very much!! So informative, graduated out of USC in 96, flying out of Libya on an Fokker F-28-2000
Very good Mooch…being an AF guy we never had to hit a moving target to land! Be well!!!
A Carrier landing is often referred to as a "controlled crash".
Cool post! I live near Cape Canaveral and grew up watching Shuttle launches! Now I get rockets every week or two!
Functioning off of assumptions, fine for a RUclips paycheck, but an antonym to true learning. Thank you Ward.
Fantastic intel and appropriate dedication to our shuttle crews.
I was just talking about where I was when Challenger exploded (I was a junior in high school). One of our teachers was a finalist for the teacher in space mission.
I was in A-school issuing gear from a cleaning locker in the barracks. One of the guys ran from the day room to tell me what happened and I got to the tv to see the boosters still splitting off into the sky...... horrible thing.
Watched the whole thing live on TV in a room full of kindergarten kids, I was one of them.
I was in school two miles from Marshall Space Flight Center, where Larry Mulloy conducted the infamous teleconference that doomed the shuttle.
Thanks, Ward, for the dedication at the end. I remember both of those days like they were yesterday, and dedications never fail to bring a tear to my eye.
I really appreciate your straight-talking and non-sensationalised presentation of your videos. Makes them informative and a pleasure to watch. 👍
Good stuff, Mooch. Thanks for this.
Great work. Was looking for the “no go-around” of the shuttle :) Also, thanks for the tribute to the lost crews. Still hurts-just for a regular citizen.
Thanks for all your videos !!
Great information, thank you Ward
There’s a great video explaining the entire process of shuttle re entry on RUclips. Just search it, I don’t remember the title. Detailed, informative, and humorous.
Setting the record straight !!! Thank you for your videos!!!
Great video. Thank you for your service.
Really interesting stuff. Well done. Thanks Ward
Fascinating video! Happy Easter to you and yours, Mooch!!
You know, i saw the tweet yesterday too.
Incredibly fascinating (again. And again). Thanks. May you find success in your many endeavours.
Nice work, Ward. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the informative content Ward Carrol!
Thanks Ward that was really interesting to see, I would have had no clue ! Wishing you & your family a Happy Easter.
I have studied flight since I was very young, it just amazes me how something so heavy can go so fast and so high. ( I’m being very simplistic for time and space in the comments) I read a report from a test pilot about the shuttle that said “flying the shuttle is like flying a 747 full of concrete. “, so if anyone thinks that it’s easy I can assure you that it’s not! Another truly amazing flying maneuver is landing a jet fighter on a short runway that is moving in 3 dimensions and still being able to catch the 1st arresting cable! Every facet of flying has it’s separate complications (a glider without thermals doesn’t go very far!). Helicopters are flying on a completely different level, try landing one in a stiff wind and hitting the pad safely! You get my point. Watch you a lot! 👍🏼
Absolutely fascinating.
Another production win for Ward 👍
Very fascinating. Great video Mooch
Great episode. I appreciate your honoring of the Astronauts who gave their all. Thank you.
Truly outstanding presentation. Learned so much. Thank you.
Very cool to see this demonstration. Thank you for all that you do!
I met him and he signed my cruise jacket. What an outstanding gentleman.
Ward, you are the best! Learn new things every time I watch you. Thanks for sharing.
Love the channel, keep up the great work
Awesome video. Good job on explaining the HUD, flight profiles and everything else. I like that you include personal experiences. I truly enjoy watching your videos.
Another great episode. Thank you!
excellent analysis to contrast the landing process. I learned a lot today. ❤
Thank you-that was great and an honoring tribute as well.
Great video Ward
I met Altman in 2010 during a KSC tour before the STS-132 launch. Really nice guy. Got to chat aviation with him waiting for stragglers to board the bus.
Thank you for your service. Thank you for dedicating this episode to the crews of Challenger and Columbia. Safety first and everything else afterwards. 🙏❤️
Very insightful explanation of different landing approaches
Love it when you do this type Video. Thank you Sir.
Another interesting one Ward, thanks.
Mooch - I always enjoy your videos... you break down current aviation and/or military matters in a fact-based, non-passionate matter which is so refreshing these days. Take care and I look forward to your next release!
Thanks for that, I really learnt something.
This is awesome. And thanks for your remembrance of the crews lost.
Great episode Ward. Hug's from Paraguay
Awesome CC bringing her to the deck!
Thanks for the reveals in actual ops. Your experience and professionalism make it all the better... Awesome video!
hey are you Mr. southcott from Boston Uni?
I remember flying this approach profile on a friend's Macintosh in the mid 80's. It took a few tries to get it down. Very challenging, like landing a brick with stubby wings.
Extraordinary presentation. Truly educational ✌👍
Yep, he buried the nose wheel. Probably just your everyday pilot who somehow ended up in the front of a space shuttle - it happens!
Another great video.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
So great Ward, just the best, many thanks.
Amazing information provided. I've never seen this detailed Space Shuttle cockpit landing info before.
Very interesting. Thanks for this Ward.
Another extraordinary informative video. But I must ask: Where's the Ric?
…watched so many great shuttle landings… Thanksgiving Mooch!
The landings are different for sure, but not as much as the cat shot!
Yeah that shuttles got some real power behind it, lol.
As opposed to the "rocket launch" of the Space shuttle??
Highly interesting and entertaining at the same time. Thanks.
What a really great presentation I learned a lot
One drill weekend in the 90's at China Lake we noticed a private Jet doing touch and goes and have a very strange landing profile. We were told they were practicing shuttle landings. Thank you for fill in questions I have had since
Loved how you tuck that advertisement in there ward
Neat to hear that you had a chance to fly in the Shuttle flight simulator. Thanks for the detailed explanation of the landing video and for the dedication to the two crews who didn’t get to land.
Always good stuff.
I'm retired inlisted Aircrewman. I was in VA at the same time. But completely different duty.
Outstanding episode, “Mooch” (@WardCarroll)!
One of your most interesting presentations!
Landing the Tomcat on a carrier and the space shuttle only had one thing in common - no room for error. I've done both. I would say the Tomcat is a little more difficult simply because of the chance of weather issues. With the Shuttle, The Discovery is the one I did, I think, you can delay the landing if the weather be bad, but in a Tomcat and Cougar on the edge, you don't get to choose a day of pretty sunshine to do your landings. You're literally writing checks your body can't cash. I do like the Tomcat though because you can do tricks and stuff, but The Endeavor or Dissvoty, which ever one it was that I did,, both maybe?, you could float around and experience weightlessness in microgravity. That was fun. I had a friend named Lisa Novak and she drove to Florida from H-Town with a diaper on in some crazy plot to kidnap someone. She was hilarious.
Watching that altitude clicking down 😳
Another great video!
Great episode as always!
Worked for the Shuttle program from 2003 to 2011. The landing gear tires are one use only.
so very enlightening! shuttle landing always *looked like they were the easiest landings imaginable, but knowing what you shared with us, we know it wasn't simple or easy.
Thank you, Ward, very cool episode!
My takeaways: the shuttle and the Tomcat are challenging crafts. And, like baseball, if it were easy, everyone would do it!
Pretty sure "everyone" in the US, used to play baseball. And considering that the sheer number of former and current Major League players, absolutely dwarfs the number of those that have flown a Shuttle and/or a carrier based fighter???
Try again...
Thanks, very informative
Fascinating video. You always make such interesting content.