@@MougliFGCI feel like he's referencing a game that has great characters that you could play with others, like overwatch. Maybe if an overwatch esque game exited with more fighting mechanics, for honor maybe? There's potential in this space, people want to Q up with the homies, maybe a moba but more action oeriented
One time I was with some guys I knew on middle school, and we went all together to play Call of Duty. I think I didn't get a single kill that afternoon, because I had never in my life played the game, and they played all the time. I just ran around for a bit, tried to look for them through the map, and then got shot from behind of from the side. My point is, "If you're not good, you don't get to play the game!" applies to every single game where you're playing against other people, because when the other is way better than you, you will consistently lose and don't get much chance to "play the game", even if that statement isn't true because you're still sitting in front of a screen with a controller or a keyboard in your hands, interacting with the game's systems and mechanics
So true, I barely play FPS games so when I do I often just get shot by some guy offscreen who was like 30 feet away and I had no chance of even seeing them. It's extremely frustrating. Every competitive genre basically has you not being able to play the game if you don't know what to do.
4:26 funny you say this, i remember a friend of mind who i was playing a racing game with said "how to i go around this corner without hitting the wall?" to which i said "you should lay off the accelerator and hold the break." to which he said "why would i do that? this is a racing game, no?" it exists in every game, i swear. "how do i shoot this giy with out my bullets going everywhere?" "shoot in bursts and control the recoil with your mouse" "why would i lay off the trigger? this is a shooter, no?
One thing I like about platform fighters or just smash is the fact that even while you're getting combo'd you still have input and can change your directional influence so certain combos aren't true at certain % if you know the correct way to DI can also play a mind game on if you'll DI a certain direction so it can throw them off a bit.
Lack of agency is the main reason why people feel like they are not playing the game. And if a fighting game has poor matchmaking and a lack of learning tools, then it's going to give new players that feeling. And no, training mode isn't a learning tool, it's a research tool that requires pre existing knowledge to be useful.
Regarding combos seeming to not end - the metagaming of "reset" predictions in many fighting games feels very unnatural, combined with the "you cannot throw someone who is hit"
@@MougliFGCyeah. I appreciated seeing throws in combos in dbfz & melty blood. I got into fighters from smash. The Directional influence system there is janky but interesting, giving the defender some opportunity to counterplay. Another counterintuitive thing in many modern fighters is your summons/assists demateralizing if you get hit - feels very much like ducttape
These videos are probably some of my favourite on the whole platform, as a kinda experienced player trrying to get my buddies into their first fighting game your way of explaining really helped my friends understand the basic concepts and now they really enjoy them, they started out with uniclr and now we are counting down the days until uni2 together all thanks to your videos
I don't mind blocking and playing defense in fighting games but straight up taking my finger off the accelerate button in a racing game feels like ass to me, it's a big reason I love F zero, there's a few times I make a mistake and need to slow down a little to compensate but the games almost never force you to slow down, just drift better and it feels so rewarding.
I feel exactly the opposite about racing games If i am not supposed to slow down then why do i have to be holding this button in the first place? when you dont need to slow down i usually feel like should be able to go faster but the game doesnt allow me and it gets frustrating real quick Meanwhile if corners require a combination of drifting and slowing down then every ounce of speed means something
I though you were going to talk about seeing your replays too. Its another way to learn about mistakes and play without pressing buttons. This could be worth mentioning in another part of this kind of videos. Recently I was playing street fighter IV , I forgot about seeing the replays the same day I went online, days later I wanted to saw specific replays and it was to late because they were overwriten by newer ones, I regreted that a lot. Very good videos, Im hoping to see the next one.
I mentioned replays in passing, and I did imply that it was what I was doing when investigating my performance in Granblue. But you are right it deserves a proper mention, but I don't think this was the video to do that.
I was expecting it too! I remember reading somewhere that "observation is not non-interaction; it's just the simplest level of engagement." it had to do with some quantum shit, but I think it applies to basically everything. I *am doing* whatever it is I'm thinking about it. at an extremely primitive level, but it counts. and i've found multiple times that I improve at a particular thing without 'doing' anything with, just because I've watched my footage, or had a look thru notes, sat on it and had a think about it... Or, in some cases, because I haven't thought about it at all, rather other life experience comes in and tells me something about what i'm doing. Very cool! Would've liked to see him expand on the initial premise more
It is weird that you bring up Apex and battle royales, it is the one genre where I can't get into it because it just felt like I would run around only to be shot and have to start over/get revived. With fighting games I think you can measure playing by making progress, especially at first, like blocking a mixup or landing a hit. I think playing a fighting game means you are expected to lose a fair bit and get absolutely decimated some rounds. The hard part is getting used to that idea and accepting that the "grind" or enjoyment of playing the genre comes from playing matches and learning through playing or watching replays etc. Similar to games like Super Meat Boy or the Souls games the idea of trial and error and refining your skills is just part of the genre. That same visceral sense of accomplishment when you beat a level or boss you have been stuck on for hours feels the same as when you finally manages to beat a character that is your kryptonite online.
I absolutely feel you with GBFVSR. This is the first fighting game I ever wanted to learn. I got a couple of characters to Rank C and feel like I absolutely do not belong there having similar loss ratios to yours. I struggle to be motivated to continue because I don’t feel like I‘m learning anything from my losses. The one thing that really helps me is going to a weekly in person FGC meetup in my city. Even though I loose almost all my matches against the way more experienced players there, being able to talk to the person beating you makes a all the difference.
I thought I was the only one, somehow the game makes me rage more than other fighters. 😂 Maybe because I can't rank down and lose 80% of matches but I feel like it's also punishing mistakes a lot.
@@heroicsquirrel3195 You don't rank down in the early ranks which means you can get lucky and rank up once and then lose because the higher rank is full of people who know just a little bit more what they do, it looks like it's either an oversight or something that will take time to fix itself
Man the thing about taking a break while playing it's underrated especially in fighting game , maybe they don't require physical strength, but like JYM you need to take a break to let your muscles grow bigger and restore the same your brain need to assimilate all the fight experience,even in tutorial or combo trial being obsessed start you to drop focus and potentially lowering your learning potential. Trust the process, be "confident" and don't look as fighting game as HARD.
We know exactly what they mean because all of the games youve shown have made changes in their design to specifically address this. Not playing the game means every match is you locked in the corner not being able to do get anything out. You have one second where you can make a decision and the rest is just you getting destroyed. That was my entire experience with Blazblue and Gg. Now in GGstrive there are multiple changes made to make it more of an active game including the tower system. All of these games youve shown are much easier in that regard. There’s no reason to pretend that we don’t know what people are saying.
While I very much appreciate this video and the advice it provides, I think there's an element to "I can't play the game" that is more nebulous, yet just as emotionally relevant, and that is feeling like not winning means not playing, or at least a sign that you shouldn't. Unfortunately this isn't as concrete as the way being combo'd (or rushed in an RTS, or getting (constantly) headshot from nowhere in an FPS or Battle Royale game) feels like being unable to play, but I know I feel it. The best way I can describe it is feeling like I'm going to be fired from a job for incompetence...despite this being a hobby and no one paying me or otherwise relying on me to do well. I don't know if this is a North American thing, due to the work-as-virtue culture of the US making it hard to understand hobbies as distinct from jobs; or the rise of Esports creating a sense of legitimacy to a hobby plagued with moral panics and filled with people who feel like they failed life by engaging with it, but gated behind an ever-increasing bar of player skill (and also mixing hobby and job in the exact way mentioned earlier). Maybe it's a whole other issue, maybe it's purely personal, but as I've had a foot in both fighting games and RTS games for the past decade and change, I've seen fighting games and the FGC start to find a way to open themselves to the idea that there is a game to be played even if you aren't winning, as you've pointed out, which at least presents a path to healthier engagement with the genre. However, with RTS I still see the more raw emotional idea that being new means you'll lose, and that means you can't play, pretty much stated point blank by people who bounce off the genre. Sometimes there'll be discussion of APM or being rushed, but as those are pretty easily shown to be a misunderstanding and a manageable knowledge check respectively, I don't see those as anything more than an attempt to grasp onto some tangible detail to justify and communicate the more important, if vague, misaligned expectation that playing games is only for winners and that means no newbies allowed. While combos present a more solid and actionable mechanical basis for feeling disengaged, I think that thinking applies with them too. Basically, I think there's an aspect to the feeling that is "I can't play the game because I can't engage with the actions that I want to due to my opponent's actions", which this video addresses, and another that is "I can't, or at least shouldn't, play the game because I can't play it well", which is outside of this video's scope
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and perspective, it's an interesting point. Being the bad kind of perfectionist myself, I totally understand the feeling of "what's the point of doing something if I can't do it well", especially when getting better requires effort (when does it not) whose return might not be "valuable". And it doesn't help that social media has made people show a curated version of their lives where failures are rarely mentioned. By definition, video editing means I'm cherry picking the footage I'm showing, but I'm making an effort to show myself getting beat up as well in a hope to demonstrate that it's possible to enjoy the genre even when this happens.
@@MougliFGC Personally I think the approach taken on social media is a reflection of an existing perfectionistic tendency in society at large (I know in school in the 90s/00s I was basically taught being perfect was a requirement for a comfortable middle-class life), but at this point it's likely self-reinforcing. I appreciate that you are even-handed with your own footage, that's always a nice touch. Also, thinking about it a bit more, I think part of the issue, at least in North America, is that there's a pervasive "Second place is the first loser" attitude. It seems to go away among people who compete seriously, but that's a small minority of the population as a whole. I've been trying to shift to a "losing is the first step to winning" attitude myself, but that's been only something I've been trying recently.
@@R34LITY_SUX I'm really curious about what your experiences with both have been and will be, because my comments are smearing over a decade of experience with both genres and many of their communities, and if there have been big shifts in general attitudes recently I will have missed them.
I got really into aoe2 in between the summer of 2022 and winter of 2023 and imo everything was very chill outside of some people in teamgames I picked up the game having barely any knowledge and by the end i was doing a quasi servicable boar lure and fast castle timing In my experience if you get used to losing you can do anything really I really got into guilty gear +r (the old one) last summer and i just got back into it again and its one of my favorite games of all time now
I teach a few people sf6 and one thing I tell them is “before you play the game, you need to know about drive impact. If you can’t react to it and your opponent senses it, you just die to it.” This is not fully true as no skill is needed to play but it’s the first pain point imho as it forces a reaction to make the risk reward just bad. I try to let them know I have trouble with it too as sometimes raw I don’t react in time so no shame in it. I think the game ate full lots of moments like this, and some action take lots more practice to counter than do, such as jump ins.
I think the problem lies on how playing the game feels differently on other games compared to fighting games. The first and major issue for beginner players, is that the mechanics are not intuitive if you haven't played similar games before, what this mean is that you have to learn multiple things at once and react accordingly, while on the other games not so much. I somewhat agree that you don't play the game, at least compared to other games, people will say "if you are bad you'll play less" but that's not the case, in battle royal or fps, you can learn to play even if the other team/players are leagues better than you because there are things that you can learn even if you are losing, map awareness, map control, etc, in fighting game you learn the other characters movesets but you can't truly know if the moves are bad or unsafe until you research or lab against an specific character in a specific scenario, and that's only for defense, offense is another whole can of worms that could be also hard to learn. i think fighting game players need to stop comparing the genre with others because not every aspect can be translated accurately, if fighting games was a language it would be chinese or japanese.
"the mechanics are not intuitive if you haven't played similar games before" is true of every single competitive game genre. I agree that having a broader range of similar-ish games help (I have mentioned that before on this channel), and having single player content that is more useful to learning online play is something fighting games lack. But that's not inherent to the genre. I concede offense is harder to learn on one's own though.
If im in the match just to lose over and over again not understanding what im doing wrong or why nothing seems to work, then yes, im not playing, im just being someone elses punching bag. If im in a tennis match and i don't have a tennis racket, so i can hit the ball back, then im not playing tennis, im just in the court.
Thank you for engaging with several of my videos despite seemingly a set opinion on the topic. I started this channel in the hope of helping people get the understanding they need to not feel the way you feel. This is a work in progress, but other people have already found the content helpful.
Honestly the one fighting game people glossed over where getting hit does not stop the interaction between players is killer instinct. If new players got REALLY good at breakers they'd realize how deep the combat is in that. A predictable opponent will be doing very little damage which will encourage people to play varied.
There's a distinct irony here given that one of the goals of winning a match in a fighting game is to not allow your opponent to play the game, or at least not playing your opponent's game. I can't really blame new players for feeling that way when it's the exact goal of the more experienced player: I mean, I for sure ain't letting anyone out of the corner or set up their win condition if I can help it. Doesn't help that you can and should stuff someone's win condition in fighting games way faster than most other genres.
This is a very valid point. I had a line in the draft script about having to deal with an uncooperative dance partner, maybe I should have left it in. I should note however that I never set out to completely invalidate the statement, let alone invalidate people's feelings, (even I sometimes find myself saying "can I do something now?" when I'm getting overwhelmed by an opponent's pressure, although that usually only happens when I'm tilted). My goal with this video was to provide nuance to the statement and get people to look at those situations from a perspective that is conducive to making progress.
Me being a fighting game lover, but not actually being able to play because they're so extensive in my country. I get why new people get stressed about defense. From the release of Granblue rising, i started playing in the free version to get a feel for the game and if was worth to buy it. And oh boy, i love the game, and as a newbie, yes it can be tedious to watch someone combo you from a crunch, but if you like the game, the best thing to do is to not care that much. If the combo looks cool, try to laugh from yours mistakes and try again.
I don't think a game has ever tilted me the way GBVSR does. I'm in a very similar situation. I realize I'm mashing too much and try to slow down and control the tempo the way I can with May, only to get fuzzy mashed out of my blockstrings. I've been looking for a midscreen punish that'll get people to behave but I think Yuel has particularly bad reward if you're anywhere that isn't the corner. It's super frustrating to compare what Yuel does to someone like Narm or Kata who fuzzy mash into full corner carry and a strong oki scenario or corner combo.
Idk when I play FPS I never get to play if I fight anyone competent. They just 1 shot head shot me and my game is over. Running around is pretty meaningless, etc. When I play LoL or DotA I get completely wham slammed in the first mins and then don't get to play for 20~40 mins after that. Just walking back to lane and dying over and over. Pretty terrible compared to a FG's couple of mins at worst with the situation always "winnable" in theory. Imo the biggest barrier to FGs are the perceived gap between having access to only normals (bc new) vs normals, special moves, supers, etc. and the pricing model of the genre. It's entrenched in buy to play while still selling you years and years of DLC and costumes. May as well as go F2P and get a much larger share of the available gaming market and a healthier MM system with the increased player base if you're selling that many skins. And some people will still shell out to play the specific characters they like instead of being stuck grinding/not having access to them; as proven by GBFVS' free rotation incentivizing buying the game if you like it and find a character you like. And going back to the perceived gap stuff, ppl miss all their shots/body shot someone, or completely fail at using their utility well, or don't know how to strafe and shoot at the same time, or can't manage creating workers while micro managing their workers and attending to a complex RTS battle, or completely miss every single ability on their hero/champ despite being technically able to press the button, but simply minimize these mechanical struggles because they've already learnt all of these skills despite them also being natural barriers to learning any game.
Dead or Alive 6 tried being free to play and selling skins, that didn't seem to work out so well. Let's see if Riot will make that model work with Project L. It's probably a bit too early to see if Granblue's model is working (their free version is more of a fancy demo than a true free to play model, and some people have been grumbling about it)
I'm in A5 and I'm also having a frustrating learning experience. I think it's because GBVSR isn't like any other fighter that I've played so far. Maybe the original release was but Rise definitely isn't "just SF with an anime skin" how some like to say. The game has very strange neutral. You can't walk back because your legs are broken and you can't dash back because there's no invincibility. Then on the other hand everyone has safe specials that people just buffer on autopilot without confirming. Because why not? You're safe, you pushed your opponent close to the corner and they can't really threaten a strike/throw mix because of how weak throws are. So at round start there's zero chill. It's your opponent hurling themselves at you and you need to figure out a response or vice versa. The intensity reminds me of what it feels like to play neutral in SFV when your opponent pops their v-trigger. The difference though is that you didn't have v-trigger for the first 75% of the match and you also didn't start out the round with access to EX specials. In GBVSR you're under threat of S+H specials from the first second of the first round. I think the issue is that waiting it out and blocking for a bit isn't a valid defense like in many other games. You need to figure out when it's time to block and when it's time to evade/cross-over. Otherwise you're just never getting out of the corner. This make Vira's corner pressure extra annoying because of her command grab. I also have to agree with Diaphone's latest tier list. Zooey not having a meterless reversal automatically puts her in trash tier. You can't avoid getting pushed to the corner in this game. That's my first 50h impression at least.
Yes, it is a very different beast, but the previous one was largely the same. Although I didn't check, I think pushback is overall stronger in this game and accentuate the corner pressure issue, and 66L is in my opinion a harmful addition to the game's neutral. I might have not phrased it well in the video, but when I was talking about waiting things out and looking for openings, I meant using all my defensive options and that includes evade/cross-over (although so many things seem to beat the latter it becomes easy to want to cast that option aside). As for Vira's command grab, I've recently found that it's relatively easy to identify when your opponent is the kind of player who really wants to go for it and then you can stuff it with jabs (the first one might still surprise you though)
@@MougliFGCthe secret to a good vira Is mixing that command grab in with a lot of 66L pressure, due to the lack of HKD options to set up luminiera, 66L is a vital tool for vira to do anything on offense to even dream of getting install without meter
A complete newcomer to shooters is put into a radiant lobby in valorant. Are they playing valorant, or are they just holding W for 15 seconds and dying? The issue here is the lack of a beginner population.
That's a great analogy with the racing game. You're ""not playing"" for basically the entire rest of the match if you have a bad crash, that's just a mistake being punished. But if you stop trying to put things in boxes of "playing" or "not playing", you see it's all part of the game.
Sf6 was my first fighting game, i loved the trailer and i was like, i wanna get good at that, i picked up modern ken, kinda had fun just mashing and getting all that flashy combos, i climb up to silver, but there people where reacting to my mashing and i just couldn’t win anymore, i got very frustrated, took a break for a bit, played mk11 with a friend of mine, then i came back to sf6 because i just love the game, picked up classic marisa, the game was a bit harder, but them i got use to do the quarter circle moves, learn some combos, went to rank, i try to implement new thing in my gameplay every day, i implemented those into my gameplan and now, i was able to break the plateau i was at, and i was able to get to gold. If i was to start this journey again i would say to my self, get use to losing, try to learn everyday a new trick, because you can’t just get all the information that an veteran or a pro player of fighting games has, basically take each step at the time, if your friends don’t wanna play fighting games with you, no problem, join a community, fgc is really friendly community, they really want new players to come and enjoy what they have been va va enjoying and puting so much time into, and you will get hooked to it. And the most important thing is, have fun. P.S. learn neutral, because none cares that you can do the most flashiest combo if you can’t get a hit in 😉
Me personally I never consider the opinion of someone who doesn't even like the game in the first place. Like if they're not a part of the community and don't buy the games at all I just don't bother. We got plenty of people playing these games already, but good on you for tackling the misinformation people have been feeding themselves about "limitations" that actually exist in any competitive game.
Honestly, I hate fighting games recently gave my last shot to SF6 from launch to now barely hit gold 2 and was hard stuck and honestly my old issue was they aren't games they have no content but now well the same issue stands it's very hard to learn a fighting game especially if your only hope to really learn is RUclips... I mean for some they can learn for me maybe i'm too stupid but it ain't for me so I quit.
If you go look up SF6 ranking distribution, you'll see that being gold 2 means you're ranking higher than over half the entire player base, meaning that based on the game sales, you're probably better than about a million people, so don't be hard on yourself. (yes I know not everyone who bought the game plays ranked, but still)
@@MougliFGC i try not to be and I didn't care about rank in that sense its just wanting to not waste anyone's time like not seeing enough improvement and feeling very defeated and just not having fun.
Thanks for idea of just blocking and tries different counter attack. as a grandblue new player, i can't understand what punishable or not in this game.
When i look at the granblue footage it really doesn’t look like a game i would enjoy because it looks like everything just blurs into eachother Liking one game in a genre doesn’t mean you have to like all of them And maybe some of them are not for me or just aren’t great but idk
Weird question but what's the name of the first racing game showcased? The one with the cockpit view? I've been looking for a fun racing game with cockpit view and that looks perfect. Great video as always, btw
While this is a nice video, I feel you have utterly missed the point of the "If you're bad you don't get to play" complaint, defending is, while often disparaged by novices(I didn't pay 60$ to not hit buttons etc etc), different from the "I got to do nothing" experience of getting combo'd at round start, given a mix you couldn't begin to understand, and getting combo'd again to death, where you feel you didn't have a chance to take game actions, you were just outmatched to the point of futility, and that is truly a miserable experience, and one thats hard to dig your way out of, because the two likely causes of it are hard to overcome Either A: The game is old enough that most people in community spaces or matchmaking are veterans, skill-based matchmaking, if it even had any, breaks down in this situation because its unlikely other novices are playing at the same time, a number of games I like(eg Skullgirls) are in this scenario and it makes deciding to just Get Into Some Matchs hard because while I'm not a blind novice anymore, I'm both rusty and pretty unskilled so I often just get exploded by people with real combo routes and significantly better neutral and struggle to learn much beyond "Wow okay so Parasoul does some shit huh?" Or B: You have a buddy who plays X, so you got X, and then you rapidly realized THEY PLAY and you don't, and so you either get washed, or you have to sit with them trying to play handicapped and thats often emotionally negative for folks
Thank you for sharing your point of view. Round start, SBMM issues and playing with friends better/worse than you are topics I plan on covering in the future.
@@MougliFGC Yeah its a rough time, I enjoy myself well enough, and I do get to "play the game" as it were, but its still hard to get motivated to hop in when you feel so outpaced, its part of the fun of Hot New Fighting Game honeymoon periods, for as many FGC vets getting a new toy exist, there's just as many new players excited to finally break into the genre and that, thats an exciting time to learn, people at every skill level and playstyle SBMM is good stuff overall, and even when the playerbase concentration makes it struggle at the extremes moreso than typical, it still serves a purpose(and the effect happens far sooner in games without any kind of SBMM, whether it be an ELO, a Rank, or just invisible stats) Round Start is... god its such a weird topic to cover because like, the things that are helpful when you're just getting started are often never the things people Talk About, hell even I wouldn't have a ton of advice on it because its just something you internalize silently ime, the bits and pieces that let you understand the game space
I think how much fun you can have with a fighting game relies heavily on how well designed it is And i think most games in the genre arent very fun or well designed Im pretty sure i wouldnt enjoy skull girls myself And i get this feeling that a lot of recent fighting games arent very fun either, but i havent played them so i cant be sure about it
I mean, the fact there is a solution to it by getting better doesn't mean it's not there and it's not frustrating. You're faced with a game design criticism and answer with "that's how it is, deal with it" which isn't super constructive. I think it's more interesting to discuss what beneficial things a long combo can bring, if that's worth it, and what ways there'd be to shorten combos without losing the benefits of longer combos. I think one obvious benefit is that it gives time to collect yourself after making a mistake, rather than racking up mistakes over and over. Say combos were 1hit but still did 60% of your health, you would get hit and immediately have to guess again, which could be a bit much since you're still thrown off by your previous mistakes. There are also the benefits of longer combo giving decision points as to when to expend ressources. So there are good reasons for combos to be extended. But I still feel like a lot of combos could be shortened by a lot with moves dealing increased damage instead and it wouldn't affect decisions much, it would make the execution of the combo easier but honestly I see that as a plus. Like, one other issue with combos is that they basically ask you while you do the combo to stop playing the game and start playing a rythm mini game that will decide how much damage you do. And like, that's cool, but how is it standard? It sounds like a one off game gimmick not a standard for a whole genre. Imagine you had the same pitch but for your damage in an rpg, it would sound like a unique gimmick for a game not "this is just how damage work in rpg's" and yet it's the standard in fighting games. I would kinda like to see a fighting game that removes execution from combos entirely. Like, when you hit someone you get a bullet time and it asks you how much ressources you want to expend, telling you how much damage you'll do and it does the (short) combo for you. That's a bit of an extreme fix but I'd really like to see how it would work out, I suspect it would make the game play pretty much identical on a competitive level while also being a lot more accessible. But obviously a subset of the playerbase that really likes the rythm mini game would hate it (and that's ok). You would lose some nuances and obviously you would lose the discovery of what's even possible since it'd be set in stone so I'm not saying it's 100% better but I think such an experiment would have a lot of value in developping fighting games game design, similar to how an experiment like divekick has probably been genuinely useful for the genre to understand itself.
If you go back to games like street fighter 2 and 3 those games had very short combos usually So its not impossible to design a game around combos that last 2-5 hits on average But combos are something a lot of people liked so they kept getting expanded upon over a long time
@@dj_koen1265 yeah I played a lot of fantasy strike and most combos are 2-3 hits with some longer combos but they tend to be very situational. (most character have 6health in that game so a 3 hit combo is already half your health). I really prefer it like that personally and wish more games had the same very short high impact combos. Both as the attacker it's easier to learn and you can see immediate progress when you learn a new combo and it has a clear impact on your games since 1 more damage is such a massive boost, But also as the defender it's a lot less frustrating, you make a mistake, suffer the consequences and get to immediately go to the next interaction or the next round. I don't think that games with super long and complex combo shouldn't exist, but some variety wouldn't hurt.
Playing the game, but you're not gaming. Its the same as D&D where the Barbarian makes 2 attacks then waits 8 minutes to take a turn again, where more often than not you're just doing the same thing you did last turn. Some players would find this boring, but even the players that think its fun to just attack every turn get bored by how long it takes to get back to their turn.
@MougliFGC Imagine in a fighting game if your best attack option on every scenario was the same button and footsies didn't exist. The rest of the options you have are as niche as that kick counter for Zangief... in Street Fighter 5.
@MougliFGC Spellcasters do have several options in D&D, it's just that for a game where you can be anyone you want the guys with magic are usually the only people that get to play the game, as spells can be used for social encounters, combat, finding things, destroying buildings, summoning 8 bears, and whatnot.
I call them corner fighters. Games where the goal is to get the opponent in the corner and bully them via 50/50’s, long block strings and the such. This is where the complaint comes from. The average new player to fighting games should not play these kinds of games because they garner frustration. Why? Because they are unintuitive. One does not naturally learn how to escape rams pressure in strive, these are things players have to search up. Or in general it is nearly impossible for a new player to know where small frame gaps in an opponents pressure is, unless they go out of their way to research how to deal with said pressure. But by then they already quit the game (a major quit moment). Casuals should be playing slower games like Samsho or even slow 3d fighters, but unfortunately the most popular games right now are fast paced 2d fighters. The complaining will not end until these games become popular.
I think the corner is a video topic all of its own. I've talked about the lack of learning tools before, and I started this channel to help with that (obviously I would prefer the information to be directly in the games, but it is what it is)
The problem is that those people don't want to play those games, because those games are slow and clumsy to them, and also still tend to end in them getting blown out in only a couple interactions because fundamentally they're not losing to the opponent, so much as their own lack of game sense, the combos and the fancy setups are often just dressing on the fact they don't comprehend what the game space is and how interactions exist, and often don't have people in the same pit of fumbling about, so the opponent's skill only matters on being better than them, and how quickly that being better makes them finish dying, whether its a twenty hit combo or a three hit combo doesn't actually matter when the lose condition is "I got hit three times" and they don't know how to avoid getting hit at all, and the varied offense only barely matters because, again, they don't know how to interact with the space, their defense is often as flimsy as a single slow overhead being good enough, the fancy set ups don't actually matter because they're not even good enough for them to be doing anything special, but players build habits and expectations that mean they respect their opponent and utilize all they have regardless
"In genereal its nearly impossible for a new player to learn where small frame gaps are" No ots not Just mash in blockstun and look for where you get counterhit (places yo buffer a dp) or hit them
What i did was learn how to block first, which took a while then introduce calculated mashing to learn the gaps I died hundreds of times but i was learning a lot so i was still engaged It was a tough experience at times but i somehow overcame it
I always found it kind of strange that people were frustrated by the lack of agency in combos (I mean, look at this cool thing they get to do to you, that teaches you about the game's systems - what more could a new player want?), and yet new players don't often complain about the lack of agency in neutral. In some games especially, there are situations or matchups where you don't really get to make decisions (tag games, as much as I love them, have lots of true-unreactable mixups and safe pressure due to assists). Something about the way that the information is presented - maybe the fact that they still technically have control of their character, even if the only choice is between doing nothing and getting hit - makes it much more palatable? But then again, there is a point where information overload becomes its own frustration for new players, when they can't figure out what they have to do in response to multiple things onscreen at the same time. Still, new players aren't going to complain about getting stuffed with a jab, even if that outcome arguably denies them more options than the threat of a combo on their punishably-minus options would.
I'm not sure I follow the first statement in parentheses, but the main point is an interesting one. I don't really have an opinion on this right now, I would need to think about it some more, thanks for bringing this up!
with about as much respect i can muster, people who have already invested thousands of hours into this genre straight up do not have the perspective to understand why people bounce off of it so hard and it REALLY shows once they fall back to the ancient, dumb as hell argument of "other competitive genres are also hard when you don't know anything about them therefore fighters aren't any different!"
You seem pretty set in your opinion so I'm not going to argue with you, but for what it's worth, I've only really played this genre for about 18 months, and splitting that time between 7+ games, I think I've got a pretty good idea of what it's like to be a beginner.
But they really arent much more difficult to learn, they are just very different and most people who already learned how to play with other Systems dont remember what it was like to have to learn them Also as long as you are willing to learn you can learn these new mechanics But if you dont want to that is fine too, As for me, i have played the genre for about 150 hours now so still relatively new And yes there were many tough barriers to climb but mostly imo because i started with +r which is really hard, but at the same time i found it really fun from the very start even when i was losing and learning still Im not saying everyone should enjoy the genre, but maybe a part of the problem is that fighting games arent really designed to be fun games anymore I think the biggest disconnect is that the people who say fighting games arent too hard are the kind of people who enjoy these games in the first place Although i do believe more people would be able to enjoy them than they might believe themselves Because i taught some people how to play +r and smash and in my experience they just wanted to play the game that allowed them to win more, which in this case wasnt smash Im convinced its more of a psychological thing than anything else But this rambling has gone on for way too long so i will quit it
Trying to escape the corner, blocking mixups, teching throws, etc, is playing the game. Scrubs gonna whine. HOWEVER: Long combos are boring and bad for games.
I wonder how many people who bounce off fighting games are really looking for a character action game they can play with their friends
Out of curiosity I did a quick google for multiplayer character action games and found... none? (I'm not super up to date with that genre)
@@MougliFGC RIP Anarchy Reigns from Platinum Games
Resident Evil 6
@@MougliFGCI feel like he's referencing a game that has great characters that you could play with others, like overwatch. Maybe if an overwatch esque game exited with more fighting mechanics, for honor maybe? There's potential in this space, people want to Q up with the homies, maybe a moba but more action oeriented
I feel like you just described Smash.
One time I was with some guys I knew on middle school, and we went all together to play Call of Duty. I think I didn't get a single kill that afternoon, because I had never in my life played the game, and they played all the time. I just ran around for a bit, tried to look for them through the map, and then got shot from behind of from the side.
My point is, "If you're not good, you don't get to play the game!" applies to every single game where you're playing against other people, because when the other is way better than you, you will consistently lose and don't get much chance to "play the game", even if that statement isn't true because you're still sitting in front of a screen with a controller or a keyboard in your hands, interacting with the game's systems and mechanics
So true, I barely play FPS games so when I do I often just get shot by some guy offscreen who was like 30 feet away and I had no chance of even seeing them. It's extremely frustrating.
Every competitive genre basically has you not being able to play the game if you don't know what to do.
4:26
funny you say this, i remember a friend of mind who i was playing a racing game with said "how to i go around this corner without hitting the wall?" to which i said "you should lay off the accelerator and hold the break." to which he said "why would i do that? this is a racing game, no?"
it exists in every game, i swear.
"how do i shoot this giy with out my bullets going everywhere?"
"shoot in bursts and control the recoil with your mouse"
"why would i lay off the trigger? this is a shooter, no?
One thing I like about platform fighters or just smash is the fact that even while you're getting combo'd you still have input and can change your directional influence so certain combos aren't true at certain % if you know the correct way to DI can also play a mind game on if you'll DI a certain direction so it can throw them off a bit.
Lack of agency is the main reason why people feel like they are not playing the game. And if a fighting game has poor matchmaking and a lack of learning tools, then it's going to give new players that feeling. And no, training mode isn't a learning tool, it's a research tool that requires pre existing knowledge to be useful.
I think I've addressed the point about agency in the video, and the rest was discussed in other videos.
Regarding combos seeming to not end - the metagaming of "reset" predictions in many fighting games feels very unnatural, combined with the "you cannot throw someone who is hit"
fair point about resets. not being able to throw people in hitstun is game-specific.
@@MougliFGCyeah. I appreciated seeing throws in combos in dbfz & melty blood. I got into fighters from smash. The Directional influence system there is janky but interesting, giving the defender some opportunity to counterplay.
Another counterintuitive thing in many modern fighters is your summons/assists demateralizing if you get hit - feels very much like ducttape
These videos are probably some of my favourite on the whole platform, as a kinda experienced player trrying to get my buddies into their first fighting game your way of explaining really helped my friends understand the basic concepts and now they really enjoy them, they started out with uniclr and now we are counting down the days until uni2 together all thanks to your videos
That is fantastic to hear!
I don't mind blocking and playing defense in fighting games but straight up taking my finger off the accelerate button in a racing game feels like ass to me, it's a big reason I love F zero, there's a few times I make a mistake and need to slow down a little to compensate but the games almost never force you to slow down, just drift better and it feels so rewarding.
I feel exactly the opposite about racing games
If i am not supposed to slow down then why do i have to be holding this button in the first place?
when you dont need to slow down i usually feel like should be able to go faster but the game doesnt allow me and it gets frustrating real quick
Meanwhile if corners require a combination of drifting and slowing down then every ounce of speed means something
@@dj_koen1265 this is an interesting perspective, I will have to stew on this, thank you for sharing.
I though you were going to talk about seeing your replays too. Its another way to learn about mistakes and play without pressing buttons. This could be worth mentioning in another part of this kind of videos. Recently I was playing street fighter IV , I forgot about seeing the replays the same day I went online, days later I wanted to saw specific replays and it was to late because they were overwriten by newer ones, I regreted that a lot. Very good videos, Im hoping to see the next one.
I mentioned replays in passing, and I did imply that it was what I was doing when investigating my performance in Granblue. But you are right it deserves a proper mention, but I don't think this was the video to do that.
I was expecting it too! I remember reading somewhere that "observation is not non-interaction; it's just the simplest level of engagement." it had to do with some quantum shit, but I think it applies to basically everything. I *am doing* whatever it is I'm thinking about it. at an extremely primitive level, but it counts. and i've found multiple times that I improve at a particular thing without 'doing' anything with, just because I've watched my footage, or had a look thru notes, sat on it and had a think about it... Or, in some cases, because I haven't thought about it at all, rather other life experience comes in and tells me something about what i'm doing. Very cool! Would've liked to see him expand on the initial premise more
It is weird that you bring up Apex and battle royales, it is the one genre where I can't get into it because it just felt like I would run around only to be shot and have to start over/get revived. With fighting games I think you can measure playing by making progress, especially at first, like blocking a mixup or landing a hit. I think playing a fighting game means you are expected to lose a fair bit and get absolutely decimated some rounds. The hard part is getting used to that idea and accepting that the "grind" or enjoyment of playing the genre comes from playing matches and learning through playing or watching replays etc. Similar to games like Super Meat Boy or the Souls games the idea of trial and error and refining your skills is just part of the genre. That same visceral sense of accomplishment when you beat a level or boss you have been stuck on for hours feels the same as when you finally manages to beat a character that is your kryptonite online.
I absolutely feel you with GBFVSR. This is the first fighting game I ever wanted to learn. I got a couple of characters to Rank C and feel like I absolutely do not belong there having similar loss ratios to yours. I struggle to be motivated to continue because I don’t feel like I‘m learning anything from my losses. The one thing that really helps me is going to a weekly in person FGC meetup in my city. Even though I loose almost all my matches against the way more experienced players there, being able to talk to the person beating you makes a all the difference.
Yeah, if you have the opportunity to chat with people during/after a game, that's very valuable!
I thought I was the only one, somehow the game makes me rage more than other fighters. 😂 Maybe because I can't rank down and lose 80% of matches but I feel like it's also punishing mistakes a lot.
@@LuckyRaphiyou dont rank down in granblue?
@@heroicsquirrel3195you can only rank down divisions within a tier
You cannot rank down tiers
@@heroicsquirrel3195 You don't rank down in the early ranks which means you can get lucky and rank up once and then lose because the higher rank is full of people who know just a little bit more what they do, it looks like it's either an oversight or something that will take time to fix itself
Man the thing about taking a break while playing it's underrated especially in fighting game , maybe they don't require physical strength, but like JYM you need to take a break to let your muscles grow bigger and restore the same your brain need to assimilate all the fight experience,even in tutorial or combo trial being obsessed start you to drop focus and potentially lowering your learning potential.
Trust the process, be "confident" and don't look as fighting game as HARD.
We know exactly what they mean because all of the games youve shown have made changes in their design to specifically address this. Not playing the game means every match is you locked in the corner not being able to do get anything out. You have one second where you can make a decision and the rest is just you getting destroyed. That was my entire experience with Blazblue and Gg. Now in GGstrive there are multiple changes made to make it more of an active game including the tower system. All of these games youve shown are much easier in that regard.
There’s no reason to pretend that we don’t know what people are saying.
I'm sorry to hear you had this experience.
While I very much appreciate this video and the advice it provides, I think there's an element to "I can't play the game" that is more nebulous, yet just as emotionally relevant, and that is feeling like not winning means not playing, or at least a sign that you shouldn't. Unfortunately this isn't as concrete as the way being combo'd (or rushed in an RTS, or getting (constantly) headshot from nowhere in an FPS or Battle Royale game) feels like being unable to play, but I know I feel it. The best way I can describe it is feeling like I'm going to be fired from a job for incompetence...despite this being a hobby and no one paying me or otherwise relying on me to do well.
I don't know if this is a North American thing, due to the work-as-virtue culture of the US making it hard to understand hobbies as distinct from jobs; or the rise of Esports creating a sense of legitimacy to a hobby plagued with moral panics and filled with people who feel like they failed life by engaging with it, but gated behind an ever-increasing bar of player skill (and also mixing hobby and job in the exact way mentioned earlier). Maybe it's a whole other issue, maybe it's purely personal, but as I've had a foot in both fighting games and RTS games for the past decade and change, I've seen fighting games and the FGC start to find a way to open themselves to the idea that there is a game to be played even if you aren't winning, as you've pointed out, which at least presents a path to healthier engagement with the genre.
However, with RTS I still see the more raw emotional idea that being new means you'll lose, and that means you can't play, pretty much stated point blank by people who bounce off the genre. Sometimes there'll be discussion of APM or being rushed, but as those are pretty easily shown to be a misunderstanding and a manageable knowledge check respectively, I don't see those as anything more than an attempt to grasp onto some tangible detail to justify and communicate the more important, if vague, misaligned expectation that playing games is only for winners and that means no newbies allowed. While combos present a more solid and actionable mechanical basis for feeling disengaged, I think that thinking applies with them too.
Basically, I think there's an aspect to the feeling that is "I can't play the game because I can't engage with the actions that I want to due to my opponent's actions", which this video addresses, and another that is "I can't, or at least shouldn't, play the game because I can't play it well", which is outside of this video's scope
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and perspective, it's an interesting point. Being the bad kind of perfectionist myself, I totally understand the feeling of "what's the point of doing something if I can't do it well", especially when getting better requires effort (when does it not) whose return might not be "valuable".
And it doesn't help that social media has made people show a curated version of their lives where failures are rarely mentioned.
By definition, video editing means I'm cherry picking the footage I'm showing, but I'm making an effort to show myself getting beat up as well in a hope to demonstrate that it's possible to enjoy the genre even when this happens.
@@MougliFGC Personally I think the approach taken on social media is a reflection of an existing perfectionistic tendency in society at large (I know in school in the 90s/00s I was basically taught being perfect was a requirement for a comfortable middle-class life), but at this point it's likely self-reinforcing. I appreciate that you are even-handed with your own footage, that's always a nice touch.
Also, thinking about it a bit more, I think part of the issue, at least in North America, is that there's a pervasive "Second place is the first loser" attitude. It seems to go away among people who compete seriously, but that's a small minority of the population as a whole. I've been trying to shift to a "losing is the first step to winning" attitude myself, but that's been only something I've been trying recently.
As someone currently learning BB CF and AoE2 respectively as my first FG and first RTS, I found this really interesting
@@R34LITY_SUX I'm really curious about what your experiences with both have been and will be, because my comments are smearing over a decade of experience with both genres and many of their communities, and if there have been big shifts in general attitudes recently I will have missed them.
I got really into aoe2 in between the summer of 2022 and winter of 2023 and imo everything was very chill outside of some people in teamgames
I picked up the game having barely any knowledge and by the end i was doing a quasi servicable boar lure and fast castle timing
In my experience if you get used to losing you can do anything really
I really got into guilty gear +r (the old one) last summer and i just got back into it again and its one of my favorite games of all time now
I teach a few people sf6 and one thing I tell them is “before you play the game, you need to know about drive impact. If you can’t react to it and your opponent senses it, you just die to it.”
This is not fully true as no skill is needed to play but it’s the first pain point imho as it forces a reaction to make the risk reward just bad. I try to let them know I have trouble with it too as sometimes raw I don’t react in time so no shame in it.
I think the game ate full lots of moments like this, and some action take lots more practice to counter than do, such as jump ins.
I think the problem lies on how playing the game feels differently on other games compared to fighting games. The first and major issue for beginner players, is that the mechanics are not intuitive if you haven't played similar games before, what this mean is that you have to learn multiple things at once and react accordingly, while on the other games not so much. I somewhat agree that you don't play the game, at least compared to other games, people will say "if you are bad you'll play less" but that's not the case, in battle royal or fps, you can learn to play even if the other team/players are leagues better than you because there are things that you can learn even if you are losing, map awareness, map control, etc, in fighting game you learn the other characters movesets but you can't truly know if the moves are bad or unsafe until you research or lab against an specific character in a specific scenario, and that's only for defense, offense is another whole can of worms that could be also hard to learn. i think fighting game players need to stop comparing the genre with others because not every aspect can be translated accurately, if fighting games was a language it would be chinese or japanese.
"the mechanics are not intuitive if you haven't played similar games before" is true of every single competitive game genre. I agree that having a broader range of similar-ish games help (I have mentioned that before on this channel), and having single player content that is more useful to learning online play is something fighting games lack. But that's not inherent to the genre.
I concede offense is harder to learn on one's own though.
If im in the match just to lose over and over again not understanding what im doing wrong or why nothing seems to work, then yes, im not playing, im just being someone elses punching bag.
If im in a tennis match and i don't have a tennis racket, so i can hit the ball back, then im not playing tennis, im just in the court.
Thank you for engaging with several of my videos despite seemingly a set opinion on the topic. I started this channel in the hope of helping people get the understanding they need to not feel the way you feel. This is a work in progress, but other people have already found the content helpful.
Honestly the one fighting game people glossed over where getting hit does not stop the interaction between players is killer instinct. If new players got REALLY good at breakers they'd realize how deep the combat is in that. A predictable opponent will be doing very little damage which will encourage people to play varied.
Its such a brilliant game design
Its a shame the game isnt more well known
I love that racing game analogy because that is my next favourite genre, and I understand exactly what you mean
I wasn't expecting to be reminded Battle Fantasia exists today. Cool!
Great video! Really liked the you raising the curtains on the personal bit of learning at the end 🙏🙏
There's a distinct irony here given that one of the goals of winning a match in a fighting game is to not allow your opponent to play the game, or at least not playing your opponent's game. I can't really blame new players for feeling that way when it's the exact goal of the more experienced player: I mean, I for sure ain't letting anyone out of the corner or set up their win condition if I can help it. Doesn't help that you can and should stuff someone's win condition in fighting games way faster than most other genres.
This is a very valid point. I had a line in the draft script about having to deal with an uncooperative dance partner, maybe I should have left it in.
I should note however that I never set out to completely invalidate the statement, let alone invalidate people's feelings, (even I sometimes find myself saying "can I do something now?" when I'm getting overwhelmed by an opponent's pressure, although that usually only happens when I'm tilted).
My goal with this video was to provide nuance to the statement and get people to look at those situations from a perspective that is conducive to making progress.
Me being a fighting game lover, but not actually being able to play because they're so extensive in my country. I get why new people get stressed about defense. From the release of Granblue rising, i started playing in the free version to get a feel for the game and if was worth to buy it. And oh boy, i love the game, and as a newbie, yes it can be tedious to watch someone combo you from a crunch, but if you like the game, the best thing to do is to not care that much. If the combo looks cool, try to laugh from yours mistakes and try again.
I don't think a game has ever tilted me the way GBVSR does. I'm in a very similar situation. I realize I'm mashing too much and try to slow down and control the tempo the way I can with May, only to get fuzzy mashed out of my blockstrings. I've been looking for a midscreen punish that'll get people to behave but I think Yuel has particularly bad reward if you're anywhere that isn't the corner. It's super frustrating to compare what Yuel does to someone like Narm or Kata who fuzzy mash into full corner carry and a strong oki scenario or corner combo.
Yuel is a reset demon, its just that you aren't clicking with her, even midscreen her reward is significantly higher than both narm and kat
1:12 that's not an exaggeration. In Fort and Apex both I have survived for 5+ minutes without encountering enemy players
Idk when I play FPS I never get to play if I fight anyone competent. They just 1 shot head shot me and my game is over. Running around is pretty meaningless, etc.
When I play LoL or DotA I get completely wham slammed in the first mins and then don't get to play for 20~40 mins after that. Just walking back to lane and dying over and over. Pretty terrible compared to a FG's couple of mins at worst with the situation always "winnable" in theory.
Imo the biggest barrier to FGs are the perceived gap between having access to only normals (bc new) vs normals, special moves, supers, etc. and the pricing model of the genre. It's entrenched in buy to play while still selling you years and years of DLC and costumes.
May as well as go F2P and get a much larger share of the available gaming market and a healthier MM system with the increased player base if you're selling that many skins. And some people will still shell out to play the specific characters they like instead of being stuck grinding/not having access to them; as proven by GBFVS' free rotation incentivizing buying the game if you like it and find a character you like.
And going back to the perceived gap stuff, ppl miss all their shots/body shot someone, or completely fail at using their utility well, or don't know how to strafe and shoot at the same time, or can't manage creating workers while micro managing their workers and attending to a complex RTS battle, or completely miss every single ability on their hero/champ despite being technically able to press the button, but simply minimize these mechanical struggles because they've already learnt all of these skills despite them also being natural barriers to learning any game.
Dead or Alive 6 tried being free to play and selling skins, that didn't seem to work out so well. Let's see if Riot will make that model work with Project L. It's probably a bit too early to see if Granblue's model is working (their free version is more of a fancy demo than a true free to play model, and some people have been grumbling about it)
Yes, Battleroyale 5min is a hyperbole. Usually it takes 20min in Apex Legends.
Nice vid!!
I'm in A5 and I'm also having a frustrating learning experience. I think it's because GBVSR isn't like any other fighter that I've played so far. Maybe the original release was but Rise definitely isn't "just SF with an anime skin" how some like to say. The game has very strange neutral.
You can't walk back because your legs are broken and you can't dash back because there's no invincibility. Then on the other hand everyone has safe specials that people just buffer on autopilot without confirming. Because why not? You're safe, you pushed your opponent close to the corner and they can't really threaten a strike/throw mix because of how weak throws are. So at round start there's zero chill. It's your opponent hurling themselves at you and you need to figure out a response or vice versa. The intensity reminds me of what it feels like to play neutral in SFV when your opponent pops their v-trigger. The difference though is that you didn't have v-trigger for the first 75% of the match and you also didn't start out the round with access to EX specials. In GBVSR you're under threat of S+H specials from the first second of the first round.
I think the issue is that waiting it out and blocking for a bit isn't a valid defense like in many other games. You need to figure out when it's time to block and when it's time to evade/cross-over. Otherwise you're just never getting out of the corner. This make Vira's corner pressure extra annoying because of her command grab.
I also have to agree with Diaphone's latest tier list. Zooey not having a meterless reversal automatically puts her in trash tier. You can't avoid getting pushed to the corner in this game. That's my first 50h impression at least.
Yes, it is a very different beast, but the previous one was largely the same.
Although I didn't check, I think pushback is overall stronger in this game and accentuate the corner pressure issue, and 66L is in my opinion a harmful addition to the game's neutral.
I might have not phrased it well in the video, but when I was talking about waiting things out and looking for openings, I meant using all my defensive options and that includes evade/cross-over (although so many things seem to beat the latter it becomes easy to want to cast that option aside).
As for Vira's command grab, I've recently found that it's relatively easy to identify when your opponent is the kind of player who really wants to go for it and then you can stuff it with jabs (the first one might still surprise you though)
@@MougliFGCthe secret to a good vira
Is mixing that command grab in with a lot of 66L pressure, due to the lack of HKD options to set up luminiera, 66L is a vital tool for vira to do anything on offense to even dream of getting install without meter
A complete newcomer to shooters is put into a radiant lobby in valorant. Are they playing valorant, or are they just holding W for 15 seconds and dying?
The issue here is the lack of a beginner population.
I have not played Valorant so I cannot comment on that. Lack of beginner population only a small part of the problem.
dont forget that a big part of taking a break is SLEEPING. rest your brain so it can recompile and come at the problem fresh and upgraded.
That's a great analogy with the racing game. You're ""not playing"" for basically the entire rest of the match if you have a bad crash, that's just a mistake being punished. But if you stop trying to put things in boxes of "playing" or "not playing", you see it's all part of the game.
No you absolutely are playing. Youre still driving the car. That’s not what people are saying.
Sf6 was my first fighting game, i loved the trailer and i was like, i wanna get good at that, i picked up modern ken, kinda had fun just mashing and getting all that flashy combos, i climb up to silver, but there people where reacting to my mashing and i just couldn’t win anymore, i got very frustrated, took a break for a bit, played mk11 with a friend of mine, then i came back to sf6 because i just love the game, picked up classic marisa, the game was a bit harder, but them i got use to do the quarter circle moves, learn some combos, went to rank, i try to implement new thing in my gameplay every day, i implemented those into my gameplan and now, i was able to break the plateau i was at, and i was able to get to gold. If i was to start this journey again i would say to my self, get use to losing, try to learn everyday a new trick, because you can’t just get all the information that an veteran or a pro player of fighting games has, basically take each step at the time, if your friends don’t wanna play fighting games with you, no problem, join a community, fgc is really friendly community, they really want new players to come and enjoy what they have been va va enjoying and puting so much time into, and you will get hooked to it. And the most important thing is, have fun.
P.S. learn neutral, because none cares that you can do the most flashiest combo if you can’t get a hit in 😉
great video, glad it was in my recommended
first time seeing u, subscribed.
Me personally I never consider the opinion of someone who doesn't even like the game in the first place. Like if they're not a part of the community and don't buy the games at all I just don't bother. We got plenty of people playing these games already, but good on you for tackling the misinformation people have been feeding themselves about "limitations" that actually exist in any competitive game.
Thanks!
Great points made! Well made video!
Love these videos! Keep it up!
Honestly, I hate fighting games recently gave my last shot to SF6 from launch to now barely hit gold 2 and was hard stuck and honestly my old issue was they aren't games they have no content but now well the same issue stands it's very hard to learn a fighting game especially if your only hope to really learn is RUclips... I mean for some they can learn for me maybe i'm too stupid but it ain't for me so I quit.
If you go look up SF6 ranking distribution, you'll see that being gold 2 means you're ranking higher than over half the entire player base, meaning that based on the game sales, you're probably better than about a million people, so don't be hard on yourself. (yes I know not everyone who bought the game plays ranked, but still)
@@MougliFGC i try not to be and I didn't care about rank in that sense its just wanting to not waste anyone's time like not seeing enough improvement and feeling very defeated and just not having fun.
If you dont enjoy it then its not for you
There is nothing wrong with that because these games are not for everyone
0:55 Hmm...
hmm?
Thanks for idea of just blocking and tries different counter attack. as a grandblue new player, i can't understand what punishable or not in this game.
I feel that's a game where figuring out what can be challenged is more difficult than in other games. Not quite managed to put the finger on why.
You just made me lose the game. Thanks a lot.
When i look at the granblue footage it really doesn’t look like a game i would enjoy because it looks like everything just blurs into eachother
Liking one game in a genre doesn’t mean you have to like all of them
And maybe some of them are not for me or just aren’t great but idk
It's ok to only like one game in a genre.
Weird question but what's the name of the first racing game showcased? The one with the cockpit view? I've been looking for a fun racing game with cockpit view and that looks perfect.
Great video as always, btw
The name of the game is always shown at the top of the screen the first time it's shown :)
obligatory if youre not having fun dont play the game
Title: Excuse meWUT
Must watch...
Interesting video!
While this is a nice video, I feel you have utterly missed the point of the "If you're bad you don't get to play" complaint, defending is, while often disparaged by novices(I didn't pay 60$ to not hit buttons etc etc), different from the "I got to do nothing" experience of getting combo'd at round start, given a mix you couldn't begin to understand, and getting combo'd again to death, where you feel you didn't have a chance to take game actions, you were just outmatched to the point of futility, and that is truly a miserable experience, and one thats hard to dig your way out of, because the two likely causes of it are hard to overcome
Either A: The game is old enough that most people in community spaces or matchmaking are veterans, skill-based matchmaking, if it even had any, breaks down in this situation because its unlikely other novices are playing at the same time, a number of games I like(eg Skullgirls) are in this scenario and it makes deciding to just Get Into Some Matchs hard because while I'm not a blind novice anymore, I'm both rusty and pretty unskilled so I often just get exploded by people with real combo routes and significantly better neutral and struggle to learn much beyond "Wow okay so Parasoul does some shit huh?"
Or B: You have a buddy who plays X, so you got X, and then you rapidly realized THEY PLAY and you don't, and so you either get washed, or you have to sit with them trying to play handicapped and thats often emotionally negative for folks
Thank you for sharing your point of view. Round start, SBMM issues and playing with friends better/worse than you are topics I plan on covering in the future.
@@MougliFGC Yeah its a rough time, I enjoy myself well enough, and I do get to "play the game" as it were, but its still hard to get motivated to hop in when you feel so outpaced, its part of the fun of Hot New Fighting Game honeymoon periods, for as many FGC vets getting a new toy exist, there's just as many new players excited to finally break into the genre and that, thats an exciting time to learn, people at every skill level and playstyle
SBMM is good stuff overall, and even when the playerbase concentration makes it struggle at the extremes moreso than typical, it still serves a purpose(and the effect happens far sooner in games without any kind of SBMM, whether it be an ELO, a Rank, or just invisible stats)
Round Start is... god its such a weird topic to cover because like, the things that are helpful when you're just getting started are often never the things people Talk About, hell even I wouldn't have a ton of advice on it because its just something you internalize silently ime, the bits and pieces that let you understand the game space
I think how much fun you can have with a fighting game relies heavily on how well designed it is
And i think most games in the genre arent very fun or well designed
Im pretty sure i wouldnt enjoy skull girls myself
And i get this feeling that a lot of recent fighting games arent very fun either, but i havent played them so i cant be sure about it
I mean, the fact there is a solution to it by getting better doesn't mean it's not there and it's not frustrating. You're faced with a game design criticism and answer with "that's how it is, deal with it" which isn't super constructive.
I think it's more interesting to discuss what beneficial things a long combo can bring, if that's worth it, and what ways there'd be to shorten combos without losing the benefits of longer combos.
I think one obvious benefit is that it gives time to collect yourself after making a mistake, rather than racking up mistakes over and over.
Say combos were 1hit but still did 60% of your health, you would get hit and immediately have to guess again, which could be a bit much since you're still thrown off by your previous mistakes.
There are also the benefits of longer combo giving decision points as to when to expend ressources.
So there are good reasons for combos to be extended. But I still feel like a lot of combos could be shortened by a lot with moves dealing increased damage instead and it wouldn't affect decisions much, it would make the execution of the combo easier but honestly I see that as a plus.
Like, one other issue with combos is that they basically ask you while you do the combo to stop playing the game and start playing a rythm mini game that will decide how much damage you do. And like, that's cool, but how is it standard? It sounds like a one off game gimmick not a standard for a whole genre. Imagine you had the same pitch but for your damage in an rpg, it would sound like a unique gimmick for a game not "this is just how damage work in rpg's" and yet it's the standard in fighting games.
I would kinda like to see a fighting game that removes execution from combos entirely. Like, when you hit someone you get a bullet time and it asks you how much ressources you want to expend, telling you how much damage you'll do and it does the (short) combo for you. That's a bit of an extreme fix but I'd really like to see how it would work out, I suspect it would make the game play pretty much identical on a competitive level while also being a lot more accessible. But obviously a subset of the playerbase that really likes the rythm mini game would hate it (and that's ok). You would lose some nuances and obviously you would lose the discovery of what's even possible since it'd be set in stone so I'm not saying it's 100% better but I think such an experiment would have a lot of value in developping fighting games game design, similar to how an experiment like divekick has probably been genuinely useful for the genre to understand itself.
Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective :)
@@MougliFGC damn just realized I wrote a lot more than I thought haha
If you go back to games like street fighter 2 and 3 those games had very short combos usually
So its not impossible to design a game around combos that last 2-5 hits on average
But combos are something a lot of people liked so they kept getting expanded upon over a long time
@@dj_koen1265 yeah I played a lot of fantasy strike and most combos are 2-3 hits with some longer combos but they tend to be very situational. (most character have 6health in that game so a 3 hit combo is already half your health).
I really prefer it like that personally and wish more games had the same very short high impact combos. Both as the attacker it's easier to learn and you can see immediate progress when you learn a new combo and it has a clear impact on your games since 1 more damage is such a massive boost, But also as the defender it's a lot less frustrating, you make a mistake, suffer the consequences and get to immediately go to the next interaction or the next round.
I don't think that games with super long and complex combo shouldn't exist, but some variety wouldn't hurt.
Playing the game, but you're not gaming. Its the same as D&D where the Barbarian makes 2 attacks then waits 8 minutes to take a turn again, where more often than not you're just doing the same thing you did last turn. Some players would find this boring, but even the players that think its fun to just attack every turn get bored by how long it takes to get back to their turn.
Is rolling dice to make attacks all there is to D&D?
@MougliFGC Imagine in a fighting game if your best attack option on every scenario was the same button and footsies didn't exist. The rest of the options you have are as niche as that kick counter for Zangief... in Street Fighter 5.
@MougliFGC Spellcasters do have several options in D&D, it's just that for a game where you can be anyone you want the guys with magic are usually the only people that get to play the game, as spells can be used for social encounters, combat, finding things, destroying buildings, summoning 8 bears, and whatnot.
Imagine playing the combat class and not enjoying combat 😂😂😂
What game is that at 6:40 ?
Game name is always at the top of the screen the first time it's shown.
5:20 KI disagrees.
It does.
I call them corner fighters. Games where the goal is to get the opponent in the corner and bully them via 50/50’s, long block strings and the such. This is where the complaint comes from. The average new player to fighting games should not play these kinds of games because they garner frustration. Why? Because they are unintuitive. One does not naturally learn how to escape rams pressure in strive, these are things players have to search up. Or in general it is nearly impossible for a new player to know where small frame gaps in an opponents pressure is, unless they go out of their way to research how to deal with said pressure. But by then they already quit the game (a major quit moment). Casuals should be playing slower games like Samsho or even slow 3d fighters, but unfortunately the most popular games right now are fast paced 2d fighters. The complaining will not end until these games become popular.
I think the corner is a video topic all of its own. I've talked about the lack of learning tools before, and I started this channel to help with that (obviously I would prefer the information to be directly in the games, but it is what it is)
The problem is that those people don't want to play those games, because those games are slow and clumsy to them, and also still tend to end in them getting blown out in only a couple interactions because fundamentally they're not losing to the opponent, so much as their own lack of game sense, the combos and the fancy setups are often just dressing on the fact they don't comprehend what the game space is and how interactions exist, and often don't have people in the same pit of fumbling about, so the opponent's skill only matters on being better than them, and how quickly that being better makes them finish dying, whether its a twenty hit combo or a three hit combo doesn't actually matter when the lose condition is "I got hit three times" and they don't know how to avoid getting hit at all, and the varied offense only barely matters because, again, they don't know how to interact with the space, their defense is often as flimsy as a single slow overhead being good enough, the fancy set ups don't actually matter because they're not even good enough for them to be doing anything special, but players build habits and expectations that mean they respect their opponent and utilize all they have regardless
"In genereal its nearly impossible for a new player to learn where small frame gaps are"
No ots not
Just mash in blockstun and look for where you get counterhit (places yo buffer a dp) or hit them
What i did was learn how to block first, which took a while
then introduce calculated mashing to learn the gaps
I died hundreds of times but i was learning a lot so i was still engaged
It was a tough experience at times but i somehow overcame it
I always found it kind of strange that people were frustrated by the lack of agency in combos (I mean, look at this cool thing they get to do to you, that teaches you about the game's systems - what more could a new player want?), and yet new players don't often complain about the lack of agency in neutral. In some games especially, there are situations or matchups where you don't really get to make decisions (tag games, as much as I love them, have lots of true-unreactable mixups and safe pressure due to assists). Something about the way that the information is presented - maybe the fact that they still technically have control of their character, even if the only choice is between doing nothing and getting hit - makes it much more palatable? But then again, there is a point where information overload becomes its own frustration for new players, when they can't figure out what they have to do in response to multiple things onscreen at the same time. Still, new players aren't going to complain about getting stuffed with a jab, even if that outcome arguably denies them more options than the threat of a combo on their punishably-minus options would.
I'm not sure I follow the first statement in parentheses, but the main point is an interesting one. I don't really have an opinion on this right now, I would need to think about it some more, thanks for bringing this up!
with about as much respect i can muster, people who have already invested thousands of hours into this genre straight up do not have the perspective to understand why people bounce off of it so hard and it REALLY shows once they fall back to the ancient, dumb as hell argument of "other competitive genres are also hard when you don't know anything about them therefore fighters aren't any different!"
You seem pretty set in your opinion so I'm not going to argue with you, but for what it's worth, I've only really played this genre for about 18 months, and splitting that time between 7+ games, I think I've got a pretty good idea of what it's like to be a beginner.
@@MougliFGC Thats about 17 and a half more months than most people you're trying to talk about, and it really does show
But they really arent much more difficult to learn, they are just very different and most people who already learned how to play with other Systems dont remember what it was like to have to learn them
Also as long as you are willing to learn you can learn these new mechanics
But if you dont want to that is fine too,
As for me, i have played the genre for about 150 hours now so still relatively new
And yes there were many tough barriers to climb but mostly imo because i started with +r which is really hard, but at the same time i found it really fun from the very start even when i was losing and learning still
Im not saying everyone should enjoy the genre, but maybe a part of the problem is that fighting games arent really designed to be fun games anymore
I think the biggest disconnect is that the people who say fighting games arent too hard are the kind of people who enjoy these games in the first place
Although i do believe more people would be able to enjoy them than they might believe themselves
Because i taught some people how to play +r and smash and in my experience they just wanted to play the game that allowed them to win more, which in this case wasnt smash
Im convinced its more of a psychological thing than anything else
But this rambling has gone on for way too long so i will quit it
Trying to escape the corner, blocking mixups, teching throws, etc, is playing the game.
Scrubs gonna whine.
HOWEVER: Long combos are boring and bad for games.