The thing that really annoys me is that the Government closed the Great Central line in the 1960's, which was a purpose-built high speed north-south route, and sold off most of it quickly and cheaply to farmers and the like. Wind the clock forward 50 years and take a look at the compulsory purchase costs for the land needed to build 'HS2'. Surely the sensible thing to do would have been to close the GC, but retain the wayleave. I'd love to be able to do a cost-benefit analysis on how much this would have amounted to as opposed to the £billions being spent on 'HS2' today !
The thing is Jon, the governments of the 1960's were only interested in building motorways and airports. Even if BR had not sold off the track-bed, chances are it would have become another motorway. Also, the larger station sites were extremely valuable to property developers then as now.
HS2 is using a small part of the Great Central route north of Calvert, but then stupidly, it diverges slightly and runs parallel and quite close for several miles, taking lots more land unnecessarily and adding to the cost, while leaving the old trackbed untouched.
@@jonrishworth7276 The GCR does not serve Birmingham and does not form a direct route between London/Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow. The idea that it is a suitable alignment for HS2 is a complete myth put forward by railfans who think all track is good track.
The developers in Nottingham moved in immediately after the Victoria Station was destroyed. Birmingham showed the way that we should have followed. Retain the railway and possibly convert it to a light tramway for the future. We are now left with the old Midland Station, over a mile from the city centre. This serves mainly east to west traffic and not as convenient as the Vic was. Nottingham has always lacked common sense when it comes to planning and unfortunately, the destruction of the 1960's is irreversible.
The 1966 version of Birmingham New Street was one of the nastiest stations in the country. There was no need to build a shopping centre on top. Both the LNW and the Midland sides originally had overall roofs well above platform level. I know that the LNW side was bombed, and umbrella style awnings replaced the roof, but at least the station was airy. Perhaps Queen's Drive did have to go in order to provide more through platforms, and I never visited the station before rebuilding. I first knew the station as dark and dingy, full of diesel fumes, and no facilities at platform level. I have only been to the latest New Street once, and it is not much better at platform level. I gather that one of the complaints about the Midland side was the smell from the Fish Market; someone said that a box would have to be made with an odourless air wick! However, such a box had never been invented, but the Fish Market was demolished in the early sixties, before the rebuilding of New Street.
I live next to the great central railway as it is today as a heritage line in Rothley and it's lovely to see and for me to now have an insight what the trains would have looked like coming through here 60 or so years ago
Have walked the whole track bed from Brackley to Nottingham , it could quite easily have become HS2 ,and still could be a freight only line to release traffic from WCML and ECML , all it needs is a little foresight and cash lol
The Great Central Railway were as confident then as the government are today of the need for a new railway. With the changes taking place today, I wonder will the ridiculously expensive HS2 ever get completed or will it share a similar fete as the GCR.? I have very serious doubts about the ethics around the debts were storing up for our great grandchildren.
Rugby to Nottingham the last train to use the GCR was May 69, there's a piece about 2 columns in the local rag about it, and that's it! 80 6 decades of railway traffic in a few inches of paper!
I get the feeling someone had it in for the GC. It was built with shallow curves & gradients to the European loading gauge as an express mainline and with a plan ( hope?) to build a channel tunnel. It would prob make an excellent HS2 if it hadn't been decimated beyond re use.
The GC became part of the LNER at Grouping in 1923, and part of the Eastern Region of British Railways on Nationalisation. BR then decided on a "one city, one region" policy. As a result, most of the line was transferred to the London Midland Region in 1958. The Manchester end had already been transferred, so the Eastern Region only kept Woodhead to the south end of the Chesterfield loop. In London, Marylebone Station and approaches had been transferred to the Western Region. Even before 1958, the London Midland Region was running trains on behalf of the Eastern, so nobody seemed able to co-ordinate anything. The first thing the LM Region did was to transfer away the main line motive power. (Gresley's A3 Pacifics and V2 2-6-2s in 1957 and 1959 respectively.) From the beginning of 1960, the through trains from London to Manchester were withdrawn, to be replaced by three trains from London to Nottingham, devoid of catering, and stopping at many intermediate stations, and taking about three hours. When Beeching began to run down rolling stock, these trains could be formed of non-corridor stock in summer, whilst the corridor coaches were put onto the dwindling number of summer extras. Nottingham to Sheffield had local trains only, apart from the Bournemouth to York through train, and the reverse working. Many of the locals took the Chesterfield loop, and spent ages in Chesterfield Central Station. Two events in March 1963 effectively killed the line. On 4 March, most of the intermediate stations were closed, and the London to Nottingham trains made extra stops at those stations which remained open. All stations between Nottingham and Sheffield, including the Chesterfield loop, were closed, so the only passenger trains over this section were the York to Bournemouth through train, plus an overnight train from Manchester to London, and an overnight train from York to Swindon. (There were return workings as well.) Then at the end of the month came the Beeching Report. Another factor which did not help was the closure of engine sheds. In 1962, the London shed at Neasden closed, and locos had to be serviced at either Willesden or Cricklewood. This was only short term, and after September 1965 there were no steam servicing facilities in North London. Woodford Halse closed earlier that year, and Leicester had closed in 1964. In the winter of 1965/6, a Black 5 failed near Aylesbury. The replacement loco had to come from Banbury. To put it bluntly, the LM Region did its level best to get rid of the line, and succeeded. At the time of transfer, the GC was at least breaking even, and could have been making a small profit. The biggest loser following closure is Nottingham. Victoria Station was right in the City Centre; the Midland Station is almost a mile to the south. There were several demonstrations objecting to Victoria's closure, all of which BR ignored.
That's politicians and civil servants for you! They're often adept at feathering their own nests, but they're not "responsible adults" when it comes to the way they handle public finances. There'd be no need for HS2.
The GCR London extension will soon have been closed as long as the route was open. What a waste. The writing was on the wall as soon as the Midland Region took over from the ex-LNER staff.
This is heart breaking to see...after all these years...such a waste of engineering expertise and skill of the railwaymen back then. Go back to Woodford or the site of Nottingham Central today...only then would you realise the extent and the determination of the powers that be back went too,to rid us of this great mainline railway...RIP GC.
1:09 *Aylesbury - wait till you get to Nottingham you will be **_Shacking all Over_** and desperate to depart at Loughborough or ever Leicester North (formally Known as Belgrad)*
ah trainspottong at Marylebone. Seems like yesterday but was over 52 years ago. How nice also to see the LT57XX LT panniers at Neasden. The railways seem so boring today and some of the loco might be great but are so ugly like the class 70 a cross between a 3 wheel reliant and an electric milk float
Hi Martin, We love the shots you captured. Is any of the footage available to re-use in snippets for a music video which tells the story of someone returning home on the Great Central Line? If you have an contact e-mail we can message you direct. All the best, The Mariners.
You are welcome to re-use any of the shots. My email is martinsmiller@btinternet.com. It's just sad that the quality is so low and not helped by its journey from standard 8 film through various stages to digital CD. Martin
@@MartinMiller1 Hi Martin, I didn't mean to sound ungrateful for the post, I must thank you for it. I can remember the last of those semi fasts watching at Newton just north of Rugby where my grandmother lived. Wished I'd been able to have seen the old GC in its heyday, but you shouldn't wish your life away, it's too short anyway. ! ATB, Mitch.
The thing that really annoys me is that the Government closed the Great Central line in the 1960's, which was a purpose-built high speed north-south route, and sold off most of it quickly and cheaply to farmers and the like. Wind the clock forward 50 years and take a look at the compulsory purchase costs for the land needed to build 'HS2'. Surely the sensible thing to do would have been to close the GC, but retain the wayleave. I'd love to be able to do a cost-benefit analysis on how much this would have amounted to as opposed to the £billions being spent on 'HS2' today !
The thing is Jon, the governments of the 1960's were only interested in building motorways and airports. Even if BR had not sold off the track-bed, chances are it would have become another motorway. Also, the larger station sites were extremely valuable to property developers then as now.
HS2 is using a small part of the Great Central route north of Calvert, but then stupidly, it diverges slightly and runs parallel and quite close for several miles, taking lots more land unnecessarily and adding to the cost, while leaving the old trackbed untouched.
Yes, it makes about as much sense as the wholesale selling-off of the trackbed. Some things never change.
@@jonrishworth7276 The GCR does not serve Birmingham and does not form a direct route between London/Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow.
The idea that it is a suitable alignment for HS2 is a complete myth put forward by railfans who think all track is good track.
Absolutely correct, and now look where they are, costing far far greater to achieve the project.
This is a brilliant, very rare piece of film. Without film like this our nations heritage would be forgotten.
The developers in Nottingham moved in immediately after the Victoria Station was destroyed. Birmingham showed the way that we should have followed. Retain the railway and possibly convert it to a light tramway for the future. We are now left with the old Midland Station, over a mile from the city centre. This serves mainly east to west traffic and not as convenient as the Vic was. Nottingham has always lacked common sense when it comes to planning and unfortunately, the destruction of the 1960's is irreversible.
Typical labour councils, coud not see further than there noses. Mind you the Beeching plans had a lot to do with it. I enjoined may trips on the line.
The 1966 version of Birmingham New Street was one of the nastiest stations in the country. There was no need to build a shopping centre on top. Both the LNW and the Midland sides originally had overall roofs well above platform level. I know that the LNW side was bombed, and umbrella style awnings replaced the roof, but at least the station was airy. Perhaps Queen's Drive did have to go in order to provide more through platforms, and I never visited the station before rebuilding. I first knew the station as dark and dingy, full of diesel fumes, and no facilities at platform level. I have only been to the latest New Street once, and it is not much better at platform level. I gather that one of the complaints about the Midland side was the smell from the Fish Market; someone said that a box would have to be made with an odourless air wick! However, such a box had never been invented, but the Fish Market was demolished in the early sixties, before the rebuilding of New Street.
Gone Completely but not forgotten. Edward Watkins was a genius.
GC. Gone completely. What a shame. Thank you for this video.
I live next to the great central railway as it is today as a heritage line in Rothley and it's lovely to see and for me to now have an insight what the trains would have looked like coming through here 60 or so years ago
Have walked the whole track bed from Brackley to Nottingham , it could quite easily have become HS2 ,and still could be a freight only line to release traffic from WCML and ECML , all it needs is a little foresight and cash lol
It's not a suitable alignment for HS2.
at 1.34 it goes over Brackley viaduct and then at 1.48 it is at Brackley Central(Top Station)
Fabulous film 👍🏻 How short sighted closing in the 60s now we’re building a very expensive but needed HS2 through the middle of the country lol 😆
The Great Central Railway were as confident then as the government are today of the need for a new railway. With the changes taking place today, I wonder will the ridiculously expensive HS2 ever get completed or will it share a similar fete as the GCR.?
I have very serious doubts about the ethics around the debts were storing up for our great grandchildren.
It's not a suitable alignment for HS2.
Shame it missed out the Catesby Tunnel, that would have been a gold film!
Hi Aiden - thanks for your comments and enjoy your life next to the revived Great Central Railway - Martin
Rugby to Nottingham the last train to use the GCR was May 69, there's a piece about 2 columns in the local rag about it, and that's it! 80 6 decades of railway traffic in a few inches of paper!
One striking difference between then and now is the total absence of trackside litter and other garbage.
Hear! hear!
I get the feeling someone had it in for the GC. It was built with shallow curves & gradients to the European loading gauge as an express mainline and with a plan ( hope?) to build a channel tunnel. It would prob make an excellent HS2 if it hadn't been decimated beyond re use.
Hi Neil - it was a bleak period for the Railways then
It was not built to continental loading gauge...this is a common misconception
@@phantomsvideos Correct.
It's not a suitable alignment for HS2 either.
The GC became part of the LNER at Grouping in 1923, and part of the Eastern Region of British Railways on Nationalisation. BR then decided on a "one city, one region" policy. As a result, most of the line was transferred to the London Midland Region in 1958. The Manchester end had already been transferred, so the Eastern Region only kept Woodhead to the south end of the Chesterfield loop. In London, Marylebone Station and approaches had been transferred to the Western Region. Even before 1958, the London Midland Region was running trains on behalf of the Eastern, so nobody seemed able to co-ordinate anything. The first thing the LM Region did was to transfer away the main line motive power. (Gresley's A3 Pacifics and V2 2-6-2s in 1957 and 1959 respectively.) From the beginning of 1960, the through trains from London to Manchester were withdrawn, to be replaced by three trains from London to Nottingham, devoid of catering, and stopping at many intermediate stations, and taking about three hours. When Beeching began to run down rolling stock, these trains could be formed of non-corridor stock in summer, whilst the corridor coaches were put onto the dwindling number of summer extras. Nottingham to Sheffield had local trains only, apart from the Bournemouth to York through train, and the reverse working. Many of the locals took the Chesterfield loop, and spent ages in Chesterfield Central Station. Two events in March 1963 effectively killed the line. On 4 March, most of the intermediate stations were closed, and the London to Nottingham trains made extra stops at those stations which remained open. All stations between Nottingham and Sheffield, including the Chesterfield loop, were closed, so the only passenger trains over this section were the York to Bournemouth through train, plus an overnight train from Manchester to London, and an overnight train from York to Swindon. (There were return workings as well.) Then at the end of the month came the Beeching Report. Another factor which did not help was the closure of engine sheds. In 1962, the London shed at Neasden closed, and locos had to be serviced at either Willesden or Cricklewood. This was only short term, and after September 1965 there were no steam servicing facilities in North London. Woodford Halse closed earlier that year, and Leicester had closed in 1964. In the winter of 1965/6, a Black 5 failed near Aylesbury. The replacement loco had to come from Banbury. To put it bluntly, the LM Region did its level best to get rid of the line, and succeeded. At the time of transfer, the GC was at least breaking even, and could have been making a small profit. The biggest loser following closure is Nottingham. Victoria Station was right in the City Centre; the Midland Station is almost a mile to the south. There were several demonstrations objecting to Victoria's closure, all of which BR ignored.
If the situation in Europe in the early years of last century had not been so volatile, the Channel Tunnel might have been built.
Very nice.
Where did this film come from?
Such a shortsighted waste of a line that'd be making an absolute killing if it was around today
That's politicians and civil servants for you! They're often adept at feathering their own nests, but they're not "responsible adults" when it comes to the way they handle public finances. There'd be no need for HS2.
The GCR London extension will soon have been closed as long as the route was open. What a waste. The writing was on the wall as soon as the Midland Region took over from the ex-LNER staff.
A sobering thought
This is heart breaking to see...after all these years...such a waste of engineering expertise and skill of the railwaymen back then. Go back to Woodford or the site of Nottingham Central today...only then would you realise the extent and the determination of the powers that be back went too,to rid us of this great mainline railway...RIP GC.
+soundnicetome Yes, I was a great shame to loose it
It should have been more thoroughly demolished to prevent all these preservation and relinking attempts.
not seen much if any film footage of Brackley station with is where I come from, was great to see, and wonder if there is anymore out there somewhere.
+neil Perryman I went to school at Brackley and remember the station. Check out my videos.
+trammix Thanks for your kind comments
+Martin Miller Hiya do you have any footage of the old brackley line?
Still Image Productions I'm afraid that's it. If only we had digital cameras then.
1:09 *Aylesbury - wait till you get to Nottingham you will be **_Shacking all Over_** and desperate to depart at Loughborough or ever Leicester North (formally Known as Belgrad)*
ah trainspottong at Marylebone.
Seems like yesterday but was over 52 years ago.
How nice also to see the LT57XX LT panniers at Neasden.
The railways seem so boring today and some of the loco might be great but are so ugly like the class 70 a cross between a 3 wheel reliant and an electric milk float
Hi Martin,
We love the shots you captured. Is any of the footage available to re-use in snippets for a music video which tells the story of someone returning home on the Great Central Line? If you have an contact e-mail we can message you direct.
All the best,
The Mariners.
You are welcome to re-use any of the shots. My email is martinsmiller@btinternet.com. It's just sad that the quality is so low and not helped by its journey from standard 8 film through various stages to digital CD. Martin
@@MartinMiller1 Thank you so much.I will drop you a proper e-mail to let you know what we are thinking and to show you what I do prior to release.
great to see Brackley
Hi Colin - if only we had had digital cameras then!
i have a bit of Brackley viaduct in my flat it is great to to see it on here
Sì
Sound would be nice!
I agree - if only I had today's equipment then!
Shame he missed the detail around Rugby out.
The "he" was me and standard 8 film was expensive on my meagre wage hence the very short shots! regards Martin
@@MartinMiller1 Hi Martin, I didn't mean to sound ungrateful for the post, I must thank you for it.
I can remember the last of those semi fasts watching at Newton just north of Rugby where my grandmother lived.
Wished I'd been able to have seen the old GC in its heyday, but you shouldn't wish your life away, it's too short anyway. !
ATB, Mitch.