@@7tales357 What was the point of your comment? Did I call them gods? NO, I did not. The original commenter on thebother hand called Merlin a god which is incorrect. I am sick and tired with fools like you. Every time hirez releases a non god character, I have to reply to the same bs.
@@roberth4395 God is obviously being used as a simple classifying term. In DotA, a playable character is known as a hero. In LoL, a playable character is known as a champion. If someone tells you about a new champion reveal, you know that it is for league, in the same vein, if someone tells you about a new god reveal, you know that it is for smite. The distinction is a marketing tool. Playable characters in smite were still known as gods when the game first came out, despite there being arachne as part of the starting lineup. You are under no obligation to "reply to the same bs", in case you were somehow unaware.
@@Dieonceperday I play since 2012. To use your words. "God" is obviously an incorrect and unnecessary term that is used since the beginning of the game. As non diety characters were represented since alpha they chose an incorrect therm and they were avare of it. Just because they ignored this issue for 6+ years it will not make it any better. Once again I have to repeat myself. If your game makes lore important in the game, which Smite does, then do not call non god characters gods. You are wrong and you know it well.
@@roflstompin he was free and I tried him in arena. Honestly even if you don't know how to play him his Arcane combo with magical power is pretty bonkers
I, for once really like this character, good job. Seems like he will be a very flexible god and it's going to be interesting seeing which role he will fit best in! :D
in a normal game your enemy would try to escape from you ... youll cast behind to finish the job@@jpsx4ever125 they missed the ability to show how the combo would be executed correct
Why criticize someone who is just playing the game. It's not like you can remind the combo easy when playing a character with 3 different stances that each do something different with the abilities. It just shows they are a normal person like all of you on here
Daaamn, when did the map change? Looks so damn clean. Gotta love the Gods with stances, they bring that extra layer of skill/depth to the simple genre that is MOBA.
Although I am not a huge fan of Dota, HoTS, and Smite if I was to compare it to my love for LoL, I always loved ability switching and crafting. That made my love for Dota II grow the more I played Invoker even though there were other characters with a more fun play style. Now, with the release of Merlin, and seeing how well you guys made him switch abilities, and how even abilities of different stances could form one larger combo, I think my love for Smite will grow way more than it has ever been in the past few years.
Would make more sense to use ice to slow, then void, then void pull, then fire combo repeat. This way they would take massive damage from the void and are slowed, then pull them back into it with void pull and hurt them with fire combo. Then repeat it constantly slowing them.
Smite people who are in charge of there videos, word of advice, when making gameplay to showoff a new God, have someone who is good at the game to play them, you will get more money that way. 5:286:088:41 Just a few Got-Tier plays that stood out
So when is the update for Ps4,it's been 5 weeks and their website says "enjoy updates every 2 weeks".The update date would be a useful thing to post in a video with the update.
@@outcast367 No. That's wrong. Dota is a mod based of WARCRACT not WORLD of warcraft. Dota 2 became it's own game later. League of legends is a game based off the moba genre which stemmed from mod from a game. It's like how battle royal became popular as a genre, where the original idea came from a mod.
@@Raydr62 to me personaly they are the same games. i get them mixed up a lot of times. since u can find same looking characters in both games. and i was just talking about dota 2 where it came from, i don't care about league at all. but yeah u are right
he will be i think a aggressive tank (like bachus) and if i remember right he will have a poison in his kit... i hope that his ult will be long/big range so player can feel that jorm is actually long
not denying he is over tuned to high hell, but had to laugh at 6:01 "enemies trying to flee the damaging celestial orb will have no success escaping the barrage of arcane energy" while showing odin bot calmly walking out of said barrage taking only 2 hits as the orb sits there for another 2 seconds doing nothing
Hey guys! I'm pretty new to this, but i have an idea for a character build? If that's okay? I just wanted to know what you think and leave it here on the odf chance of the devs liking it. It's coyote, the Navajo trickster. Coyote is famous for, well, his tricks (both successfull and backfired) and for being the only being to use corpse poison without having gotten it from first man. He got this through dying and ressurecting himself so.... What if coyote was a glass cannon mage/debuff character who' gimmick was ressurection? Not endlessly, only two and at a cost. Each ressurection increases his magic and debuffs, but leaves him even MORE of a glass cannon. This allows him to play some pretty good mind games, as every player has to wonder whether coyotes on his last, vulnerable life or if killing him will just play into his hands. Last life coyotes would reasonably be expected to play defensivly while ones with ressurections would go all out to deliberatly get thrmselves killed.... but they can switch it up to trick prople into ignoring them when vulnerable or giving them a second wind. For extra fun, add the ability to fake his death or hold off on ressurecting to keep them guessing. It'd also act as a conditional check to instant-kills without ruling them out entirely and add an interesting vulnerability to character who benefit from repeated kills. I've not figured out everything, obviously, but what do you think? I apologise if it's overpowered, i tried to give it a drawback but keep it interesting
The only nerf he needs is a cool cool down reduction on his 1 in ice form and hes in a good state. Even though he has cc and damage, he has very long cooldowns (especially stance switch) and drains mana insanely fast. The only short cool down he has is the ice form 1, which is ironically the only broken part of his kit.
@@Raydr62 I think that's the point though. Pretty much every mage has their main damaging ability on a short CD without cdr. Merlins only even seems to get low CD once chronos pendent is online which is alot of CD where other Mages don't require it.
Merlin's ice kit looks like borrowing quite a bit from Jaina in HOTS. Jaina: Who're you? Merlin: I'm you, but also using Arcane, Fire and a little lightning.
Hmmmmm its been years but I just noticed that the complexity of his abilities and assets/aesthetics are similar/resembles Invoker from Dota 2, but cool kit until now still loving it
In Spring, I believe. Currently, the Switch Beta has some UI bugs in the main menu, but gameplay is surprisingly smooth, even in handheld mode. You will notice a downgrade in textures and models, but frames are pretty consistent, even in team fights. I would also note that Jungle Practice is pretty buggy on Switch, but that is a minor complaint when you consider the work required to get a game like Smite to run well on the Switch.
The character design itself looks nice, but it certainly doesn't make one think Merlin, and if it weren't for the magical effects on the hands, you'd think it was a knight instead of a wizard.
Before Doctor Strange, before Gandalf the Grey, before either Doctor Fate or Constantine...before even Houdini; Merlin Ambrosius was the TRUE Sorcerer Supreme
@@Shadowdrives All of these are mythical entities though. Arthur was a HUMAN King. Merlin was a HUMAN Mage. Cu Chuulain was a HUMAN Warrior. Etc Etc Etc... Can we get things that arn't Human???
MCRaven and? you really gonna say you dont get in if your not a god? cause then you have to remove a majority of smites cast for being stories of pantheons and not gods anyway, or for being god halfbreeds
you understand that most mythological beings are closer to using magic and does it matter if he is "similar" to a diablo 3 character? They don't own those magic abilities and it isn't like the same kind of abilities can't be found elsewhere
Shoutout to Odin for taking all the damage in these god reveals.
"Morrigan, I've come to bargain..."
Merlin is by far one of the most interesting characters added into this game and he looks fantastic as the 100th God. Here's to 100 more!
At least call him a playable character. Merlin is no god.
Neither is Guan yi, Achilles, Arachne, Bakasur, Chiron, Daji, Fafnir, J I N G W E I, Kumbhakarna, Kuzenbo, Scylla - anymore?
@@7tales357 What was the point of your comment? Did I call them gods? NO, I did not. The original commenter on thebother hand called Merlin a god which is incorrect. I am sick and tired with fools like you. Every time hirez releases a non god character, I have to reply to the same bs.
@@roberth4395 God is obviously being used as a simple classifying term. In DotA, a playable character is known as a hero. In LoL, a playable character is known as a champion. If someone tells you about a new champion reveal, you know that it is for league, in the same vein, if someone tells you about a new god reveal, you know that it is for smite. The distinction is a marketing tool. Playable characters in smite were still known as gods when the game first came out, despite there being arachne as part of the starting lineup. You are under no obligation to "reply to the same bs", in case you were somehow unaware.
@@Dieonceperday I play since 2012. To use your words. "God" is obviously an incorrect and unnecessary term that is used since the beginning of the game. As non diety characters were represented since alpha they chose an incorrect therm and they were avare of it. Just because they ignored this issue for 6+ years it will not make it any better. Once again I have to repeat myself. If your game makes lore important in the game, which Smite does, then do not call non god characters gods. You are wrong and you know it well.
Are we gonna ignore that godtier play at 8:41
Hirez logic = He can't be OP if I miss everything!
still better than me
Did you notice that clean decapitation at 1:28?😂
James Padilla fatalitY
LMFAO
Lol remember they tried to split the god reveal and the abilities into separate videos? Good times.
Why would they though? It all fits so nicely together
Lye it was awhile ago.
Lye old comment I know but this was almost 4-5 years ago when they still did that.
no, it wasn't
Slimer44 Producciones sarcasm lol
Petition for lore lady to become a god in smite her designs already pretty cool
Blizzard into frostbolt, thanks HOTS for my years of Jaina play
What about the orb that grows with range and blink? That's Li-Ming right there
Arcane, ice and fire are all mage specs in WoW too
Blizzard should never be an opener though, apply Chill first with Frostbolt and chain it with Blizzard / Cone of Cold for better DPS.
When will Jesus Christ be announced?
Only real gods are in Smite
@@tylerkrohn2233 Daji, Merlin, Arthur..
@@tylerkrohn2233 woooooooooooooow
Tyler Krohn king arthur
Never since it will spread up too much controversy
Who is here after the Avatar Battle Pass reveal?
trying to find out if i would actually play the god before i get the skin tbh.
@@roflstompin he was free and I tried him in arena. Honestly even if you don't know how to play him his Arcane combo with magical power is pretty bonkers
Yep
I gotta know how to play him now.
I'm finna get that brih
Hi-Rez: "yeah so guys remember how flickering ritual was broken as hell? yeah were doing that again have fun!"
But can he charge NP and make buster cards strong?
"For the glory of Merlin, daylight is mine to command!!"
I, for once really like this character, good job. Seems like he will be a very flexible god and it's going to be interesting seeing which role he will fit best in! :D
Can't wait for Jormungandr. Anither tank, and the World Serpent too. Awesome.
This anime needs a new season
@Ren - san The new style of lore im guessing :/
Yeah, with Goku also xD
Seven deadly sins xs
Oh hello fellow dead by daylight player
It’s called seven deadly sins Merlin is a woman and she’s op
Garden of Avalon!!!
so he’s essentially just a wow mage?
Exactly what I thought.
Khadgar
he's invoker from dota so yeah pretty much your average blizzard mage xD
Payback for the whole Overwatch / Paladin thingy I guess
@@SuperToffer but... hirez copied everything from blizzard there too...
Anyone think that the camera man did a very very poor job. He even missed some abilities on standing targets
Yeah also with the arcane combo he did the other way around to what the lore lady said
Yes I was so triggered when he constantly missed dragon breath
in a normal game your enemy would try to escape from you ... youll cast behind to finish the job@@jpsx4ever125
they missed the ability to show how the combo would be executed correct
@@thefench1 Even this isnt correct and he still missed it its a more positive way to look at it so thank you for your reply I'll go with that :)
Why criticize someone who is just playing the game. It's not like you can remind the combo easy when playing a character with 3 different stances that each do something different with the abilities. It just shows they are a normal person like all of you on here
i have always wanted to play as WoW mage, but seriously i love this character
Invoker you're in the wrong game. Pls come back
WHERE IS THE DAMN HERO CREATION EX? and GARDEN OF AVALON.
he's only ascencion 2
Daaamn, when did the map change?
Looks so damn clean.
Gotta love the Gods with stances, they bring that extra layer of skill/depth to the simple genre that is MOBA.
Now that there’s 100 characters. Can we rework some older ones to make them more viable
can we get an owl skin for him and call it "hooodini"
no
Yes
Wait
Simply genius.
This made me laugh!
This god seems really creative and interesting. Great job Hirez!
Although I am not a huge fan of Dota, HoTS, and Smite if I was to compare it to my love for LoL, I always loved ability switching and crafting. That made my love for Dota II grow the more I played Invoker even though there were other characters with a more fun play style. Now, with the release of Merlin, and seeing how well you guys made him switch abilities, and how even abilities of different stances could form one larger combo, I think my love for Smite will grow way more than it has ever been in the past few years.
Dick Wizard has invaded another game full of salt.
Someone call a Castoria, he needs to be punished
@@OrionPaxG4 And Fou, don't forget Fou
Put Cath Palug in the game he must be stopped!
Whahahahaah
counting down the minutes until copyright infringing dr strange skin arrivesand gets retracted lol
They already have a Dr Strange skin- it's on Janus.
@@dragontyron what about dormammu
wait for the Invoker skin Obviously
@@dragontyron Which one?
@@darksev.6468 Worldwalker. The portal effect they did is an almost-perfect imitation of the portals in the Dr Strange movie.
I don't even play this game but I'm excited for his reveal
I love how they trying to combo fire and ice and miss the dragon breath each time
Cool but when we will get the Mesopotamia pantheon I want Marduk Ishtar and gilgamesh and the other badass
Isnt awilix apart of Mesopotamian mythology
@@oblivionj2323 no she is part of the mesomercian and Mayan pantheon
I think Nergal the god of the underworld would make a great start for a Mesopotamian pantheon.
@@humangirl2122 good choice
@@oblivionj2323 no
Who else stopped playing this game 5 years ago but is addicted to these lore/god reveal videos like they’re crack?
Where my FGO references? :3
Dick mage
Magus of Flowers
Fou: Die Merlin Die
@@demonicrobot50
Magi*Mari
It’s gonna be a time sink experimenting with item/ability interactions. Perfect! Especially on omnipotence.
RIP Arthur :(
Gosh I miss Merlin
Merlin looking like that instead of an old man. It's obvious they are going to make a Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate skin.
Legend of daddy and his twink :))
Who's the twink? Arthur is a wolf or a jock
Wrong! The actual Merlin was like decrepit old man and Arthur was probably middle aged.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but is the player missing the dragons breath at the fire combos at 6:43? it just eems like its too far back
it definitely looks like it but i wouldnt doubt hirez and their poor telegraphing.
*_a daddy has entered chat_*
Here's daddy what's up 🍭
is it bad that that’s the only reason i bought him lol
@@nikhilsilva5244 ikr
Any buffs to the old gods not to say power creep is bad but some of the gods have just disappeared like Isis for example
"spear of the magas is a good buy"
My brain: "spear of the magas is a goodbye" but if so then why is it on the screen?
Me: **facepalm my brain**
@Cpt Dinosaur one of the other reasons I facepalmed my brain
I just read the first line as goodbye and then couldnt understand what you were on about. Took me like 4 times to realise it says "good guy"
6:46 Mortal Kombat Toasty guy: That's my line
This kind of Hero/God is the type that hard to play, but when you master it, people be dropping like fly with bonus extra cool point.
2:27 I can finally make JoJo's reference everytime I change my stand, I love being mid main
Nice Try Hirez, trying to make me build doom orb. HA!
They buff it in this patch
@@casper6786 did they say what the buff is yet?
Jesse Mendez I’m pretty sure they gave it 135 power or something like that
@@jessemendez2165
It's a t3 item now
@@jessemendez2165 it's on the patch notes. Something like 165 power and movement speed.
Would make more sense to use ice to slow, then void, then void pull, then fire combo repeat. This way they would take massive damage from the void and are slowed, then pull them back into it with void pull and hurt them with fire combo. Then repeat it constantly slowing them.
Anyone else think his character design seems similar to Dr. Strange?
Magic Ullr on steroids. His kit is overloaded.
I wanna play that spellboi
Smite people who are in charge of there videos, word of advice, when making gameplay to showoff a new God, have someone who is good at the game to play them, you will get more money that way. 5:28 6:08 8:41 Just a few Got-Tier plays that stood out
More polynesian gods please like Maui and the polynesian shark god.
Never played smite. Dont know why im watching this. But i now feel an urge to play this guy
I think the next character should be orochi...
Fate call they want Mage back
Now give Nut and Ouranos
OP asf his skill set is crazy he has good poke good cc team fights are gonna be terrible when he arrives
So when is the update for Ps4,it's been 5 weeks and their website says "enjoy updates every 2 weeks".The update date would be a useful thing to post in a video with the update.
are we gonna ignore that at 6:10 and all the following combos he misses the dragon breaths?
When invoker leaves Dota and enters Smite
I mean, invoker is literally a world of warcraft mage, so there wasn't that much originality there either.
The real invoker has 20+ spells
@@Raydr62 ummmm u know that the whole game is based of world of warcraft? since map dota was made.
@@outcast367 No. That's wrong. Dota is a mod based of WARCRACT not WORLD of warcraft. Dota 2 became it's own game later. League of legends is a game based off the moba genre which stemmed from mod from a game. It's like how battle royal became popular as a genre, where the original idea came from a mod.
@@Raydr62 to me personaly they are the same games. i get them mixed up a lot of times. since u can find same looking characters in both games. and i was just talking about dota 2 where it came from, i don't care about league at all. but yeah u are right
So he is Smite Invoker? Nice
Put in game archangel Michael , Gilgamesh , Prometeus or Death.
isn't thanatos supposed to be the angel of death ?
@@Mr.Cerebr0 In greek mithology, yes.
It is nice they mentioned all of the version of merlin
When is Jesus getting released?
Never.
He's straight up invoker from Dota2
WAIT..... What class of Brendadirk Cramplescrunch are you?
I was like, faintly hearing Cerberus in the background and I think I'm crazy.
When is this supposed to come out?
Lol now
Monday, the 11th. Maybe Tuesday, I forget which day is patch day.
They delayed it to the 11th to fix bugs.
@@Archtew not now try again
@@mr.niceguy777 wait it isnt now? I thought it would be cuz they released the video of him
why im discovering this gameee nowwww i wish i knew this before and i love this character
Merlin use Tri attack!
Ah yes, Merlin, the god of:
wait what
Invoker's
Jormungandr next. I can't wait to (allegedly)Support as an anti knock up Snek.
he will be i think a aggressive tank (like bachus) and if i remember right he will have a poison in his kit... i hope that his ult will be long/big range so player can feel that jorm is actually long
@@staszeksraka4799
Make him go straight into the air and rain poison all over the map
not denying he is over tuned to high hell, but had to laugh at 6:01 "enemies trying to flee the damaging celestial orb will have no success escaping the barrage of arcane energy" while showing odin bot calmly walking out of said barrage taking only 2 hits as the orb sits there for another 2 seconds doing nothing
What a strange Ryze rework, but Overload is still there
Hey guys! I'm pretty new to this, but i have an idea for a character build? If that's okay? I just wanted to know what you think and leave it here on the odf chance of the devs liking it.
It's coyote, the Navajo trickster. Coyote is famous for, well, his tricks (both successfull and backfired) and for being the only being to use corpse poison without having gotten it from first man. He got this through dying and ressurecting himself so....
What if coyote was a glass cannon mage/debuff character who' gimmick was ressurection? Not endlessly, only two and at a cost. Each ressurection increases his magic and debuffs, but leaves him even MORE of a glass cannon. This allows him to play some pretty good mind games, as every player has to wonder whether coyotes on his last, vulnerable life or if killing him will just play into his hands. Last life coyotes would reasonably be expected to play defensivly while ones with ressurections would go all out to deliberatly get thrmselves killed.... but they can switch it up to trick prople into ignoring them when vulnerable or giving them a second wind. For extra fun, add the ability to fake his death or hold off on ressurecting to keep them guessing.
It'd also act as a conditional check to instant-kills without ruling them out entirely and add an interesting vulnerability to character who benefit from repeated kills.
I've not figured out everything, obviously, but what do you think? I apologise if it's overpowered, i tried to give it a drawback but keep it interesting
Merlin is just Shaggy at 0,03% of his power... pretty broken if you ask me
Ummmm. Not even close
If you manage to hit your attacks,Yeah.
While i wait for merlin to be in the game,Ill be using my scylla for the time being ^^
How dare you insult Lord Shaggy like that, Merlin comes no where close to comparing to our Eternal Hero's power
SHAGGY PLS
Merlin,
The Futa Wizard
I can see the nerf coming
It is not that overpowered, he uses a lot of mana and has long cd
The only nerf he needs is a cool cool down reduction on his 1 in ice form and hes in a good state. Even though he has cc and damage, he has very long cooldowns (especially stance switch) and drains mana insanely fast. The only short cool down he has is the ice form 1, which is ironically the only broken part of his kit.
@@Raydr62 like fafnir long cd when he came out
@@Raydr62 I think that's the point though. Pretty much every mage has their main damaging ability on a short CD without cdr. Merlins only even seems to get low CD once chronos pendent is online which is alot of CD where other Mages don't require it.
Merlin's ice kit looks like borrowing quite a bit from Jaina in HOTS.
Jaina: Who're you?
Merlin: I'm you, but also using Arcane, Fire and a little lightning.
i miss this game u.u but it lost the war agains LOL in south america :(
Hmmmmm its been years but I just noticed that the complexity of his abilities and assets/aesthetics are similar/resembles Invoker from Dota 2, but cool kit until now still loving it
sooo when its coming out on switch.
Dave Vira asking the real questions
In Spring, I believe. Currently, the Switch Beta has some UI bugs in the main menu, but gameplay is surprisingly smooth, even in handheld mode. You will notice a downgrade in textures and models, but frames are pretty consistent, even in team fights. I would also note that Jungle Practice is pretty buggy on Switch, but that is a minor complaint when you consider the work required to get a game like Smite to run well on the Switch.
Erik Gutierrez yea aside from the lag when players leave/join mid game I've barely had any gameplay issues honestly
The character design itself looks nice, but it certainly doesn't make one think Merlin, and if it weren't for the magical effects on the hands, you'd think it was a knight instead of a wizard.
100% they did him like this so people would ship Arthur x Merlin
There's no other reason to make an old wizard look like a hot dad.
Before Doctor Strange, before Gandalf the Grey, before either Doctor Fate or Constantine...before even Houdini; Merlin Ambrosius was the TRUE Sorcerer Supreme
Nice try HiRez we all know he's just a discount frostfire ullr
oof
Ironically Frostfire Ullr is a discount apollo without apollo's badass kit. Change my mind.
Merlin is like 3rd generation discount of Apollo confirmed
@gottfer no u
Gonzalo Garcia How can you say something so bold, yet so controversial?
I find it kind of funny that he's similar to imani from Paladins. Hi-rez was probably working on them at the same time
He reminds me so much of doctor strange
Jobert Uy dr. fate* cuz Merlin is like boosted dr. strange(read dr. fate)
@@justgoaway8508Golden Age Dr. Strange.*
@@justgoaway8508 also known as literally the most OP marvel hero
true
That lore was brilliantly written
My NEW FAVOURITE GOD!!!!
After King Arthur and now Merlin’s abilities, I see they’re incorporating some world of Warcraft features hahaha
Remember when this game was a battleground of the GODS.
Yeah me neither.
So yemir, medusa, fenrir, arachne,etc doesn't count
Think before u write anything idiot
@@Shadowdrives All of these are mythical entities though.
Arthur was a HUMAN King.
Merlin was a HUMAN Mage.
Cu Chuulain was a HUMAN Warrior.
Etc Etc Etc... Can we get things that arn't Human???
@@bamiyamoto8187 Hey nice argument, I'll be sure to keep that one in mind; genius.
MCRaven and? you really gonna say you dont get in if your not a god? cause then you have to remove a majority of smites cast for being stories of pantheons and not gods anyway, or for being god halfbreeds
Finally the best buster support
I want to see some North American Gods!
Those Maya/Aztec Gods are like... From Mexico or something... Voodoo might as well be in Caribbean or Louisiana...
@@tsohgallik Central American gods
@@tsohgallik :(
Trump
Jesi Frostwhisper what about him?
That looks like Seven deadly sins. Merlin and king Arthur.
Where’s Fenrir?
Its supposed to be "The Master Magician"
Source: I'm holding the book as I type this
U bois ready for his skin option to be one from the seven deadly sins
Kaneki SSJGOD omg yes
I did not know doctor strange is coming to smite
My girlfriend wants a dumbledore skin for him.
Make this happen please
You just had to mention your girlfriend eh?
Dumbledore and Harry Potter suck.
meeeh better voldemort skin
No one cares that ur girlfriend wants a dumbledore skin bruh.. they are not gonna add that just beacuse u want it or ur girlfriend.
Yea oh yea yea oh yikes u sound jealous
So they added Khadgar as the 100th God?
Nice
Can you stop putting out mages there’s triple the mages than assassins and warriors how about you put out more warriors or guardians
Also his abilities are way too similar to the wizard from diablo 3. Arcane sends and orb, fire dragons, and ice creates a blizzard.
you understand that most mythological beings are closer to using magic and does it matter if he is "similar" to a diablo 3 character? They don't own those magic abilities and it isn't like the same kind of abilities can't be found elsewhere