Is the American Dream Real?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- In which John discusses moving to New York, equality of opportunity, socioeconomic mobility in the United States in the 21st century, the American dream, and the underratedness of Slovenia.
A much better exploration of the gender pay gap in the U.S. and elsewhere: en.wikipedia.or...
ALSO it's interesting that I chose to make a joke about computer programming, because in fact female programmers are paid the same as male programmers in the U.S. according to this study: www.smithsonian...
(That noted, the gender pay gap overall remains real.)
The American Dream is often misinterpreted as "a dream every American has for themselves," when it really is "the dream America has for itself." The American dream isn't about Americans having better lives, it's about America being a better place to live.
I would argue that those two things are deeply connected, and that it is impossible to improve in one of those areas without also improving in the other. The population of America is made up of mostly Americans, after all.
The term "American Dream" was first coined by James Truslow Adams in 1931 book
This is a really good point!
In which John Green discusses moving to New York, equality of opportunity, socioeconomic mobility in the United States in the 21st century, the American dream, and the underratedness of Slovenia.
Is the American Dream Real?
HI JOHN
hi john. hi hank
Mercedes Gonzalez
You forgot Dave.
And gender inequality. The baffling and agonizing truth that is gender inequality in pay scale.
Myka Dassano You should read the comments here and see what's actually up.
I agree, all these anecdotes about the "American Dream" really don't reflect the reality. In fact, there are some intellectuals (Noam Chomsky) who argue that the myth of the American Dream is destructive rather than helpful.
He talks about the anti-myth. So, the myth goes:
You go to America and you work hard. Because you work hard, you succeed.
The anti-myth is this:
If you haven't succeeded, it means you don't work hard, and so it follows, you're lazy.
This is in American political discourse a lot. It in effect blames the poor for poverty. It's a common belief among the Right and Libertarians and Free Market Advocates. Which, is an extremely dangerous world view. Poverty, isn't he result of those who are poor, that's absurd. There's a host of environmental, economic, geographic, cultural factors at play. But, the oversimplification has lead, to what some people call "a war on the poor". Not the good kind of "war on..." something, like preventing drugs or cancer. But an actual effort to demonize the poor.
At first, I never gave credence to the anti-myth, I thought it was a stretch, but after following American political discourse for a while, I'm convinced it has had an impact on how Americans view poverty.
Sadly, in other countries here in Europe this belief is also getting more and more popular. Allain de botton ( I hope this was the correct spelling :D) has some great thoughts about this . You can listen to him on TED talk!
Here in the 3rd world we help the Poor and nothing good comes after helping them, our goverments Gives them social plans and they only become lazy, blaming the same things you said, the enviroment, cultural factors, etc, i think the point of view of people like you is really dangerous, Here in my continent the majority of our countries are leftists and socialists and our goverments “helps” the Poor to get him out of poverty and only bring us disgrace.
I work with Social Security claimants. Can’t even tell you how many have begged me to understand that they NEED it, that of COURSE they would do something else if they could, that they’re disgusted with themselves for getting help. Hundreds.
The problem with the American Dream is that it is based on an idea which is naive in its core. People are not free and equal. Inequality in class can lead to differences in behavior, values, tastes and general survival strategies. So questions about if you take a risk to acquire chances (which does include education in the US system) or if you fit in a group are not entirely your free choice. For people with less money, things like universal health care can mean that they can take risks and not be bound by the expectation to be ruined forever. If higher education just costs time, they will not be as hesitant to risk taking that opportunity.
Soooooooooooooo, when are you running for Senate?
WOW
You are so witty
It's ridiculous. People are allowed to judge a country or basically ANYTHING without making an initiative to change it. Judgement is a measure of something that is passed by human assessment (whether it is fair or not is another matter).
He doesn't have to be president to rightfully claim that the current president isn't doing his job correctly.
who want to Senate ?? .. it's lobby work
***** I doubt that. It could've been a joke but I think he was accusing John of passing a judgement without working toward a change, thus calling him a hypocrite.
And as you said, this was my interpretation and I might've been wrong. And if I was wrong, I apologize.
But I still gauged some underlying accusation in that comment (or maybe I'm just used to aggressive and accusational comments on youtube).
***** I'm sorry that you happened to stumble towards those comments.
Well, not because of the comments but because of the videos themselves.
Nerdfighter videos tend to have better people, like you for instance, who are civilized enough and less aggressive.
Coming from a lower-middle-class family, this really hits home. My true hope in life is that I can move myself and my family into an economic position where we can live without surviving disability check to disability check.
This is one reason why I love the internet you know. The stuff I can know if only I want to is immense and when I compare that to the options my grandfather had (who had to move from Ireland (his born country) at the age of 16 for work) I am just astounded by my fortune and compelled not to waste such an opportunity. The amazing welfare system of Britain does help with that though.
Oh, I wish I could have the benefit of Britain healthcare system
Good luck my man.
awww the story of the craigslist furniture mover made me smile.
Thank you!!! I also think the "American Dream" idea allows people to blame the poor for the inequality they face, which isn't helpful or accurate.
I certainly can see how poverty has affected me. The first week of my life, my family lived in a homeless shelter. My mom got assistance from the government to get a house, get food, go to college, and send us to daycare. When I was young she divorced my biological father (can I just say he was a horrible guy) and she did all this still while raising four of us. My mom did in fact work hard, but without government assistance, I don't think much would of changed for us. Now we are middle class, however this allows people to operate by a lot of assumptions. Like the idea that I have money saved up for college. We didn't have money to save. Every penny was spent on surviving. So that's one way being poor a while ago still affects me now.
My city was also ranked one of the poorest in the nation and I get pissed when people say being poor is the poor's fault.
I love your picture by the way. Luna Love-good my favorite character!
Mine used to be Hermione, but now I relate a lot more to Luna.
I'm all for the Danish dream, especially if it involves, like, Danishes.
ahem pastry.
Those aren't nearly as tasty
In Denmark, Danish pastry is actually named after Wien, the capital of Austria.
I don't believe that the capital of Austria will be as tasty either
I'm gonna give another funky thing, like others: If you're in an elevator an it says 'I fart', don't worry - it just means it's moving ;). In Denmark 'Fart kontrol' means speed check.
Can we vote these 2 guys to be president and vice president??? Or maybe like the first ever double president. You get the point.
that would be unfair to the rest of the world :)
Joe G.P. Nono, Britain's got Vsauce! And Scotland's got Scott Manley except he lives in California, and the british prime minister both rules Scotland and England (he/she does right, otherwise I'm going to sound so dumb)... well...
AsgerCo
i said the rest of the WORLD, that's a bit bigger than the Ireland, Scotland and Great Brittain
Joe G.P. I was beeing ironic, I'm just not the greatest at making comments that are clearly ironic
AsgerCo
the thing is i don't know who Scott Manley is or the british prime minister, maybe that's why
I think that's the best re-statement I've ever heard of "The American Dream," insofar as its accuracy.
Anyone who can work, can work- doesn't mean you'll be paid what you believe to be an adequate amount (not yet anyway, but we're working toward that as a society I hope), and it doesn't mean you'll find success in the exact terms you'd prefer, but it does mean you can work.
John: "And in Slovenia..."
Me: "Whhhhhhaaaattt?! HE KNOWS WE EXIST :O! "
I'm danish, so I just want to ad to this
"the danish dream" = greater chance of small success
the american dream = smaller chance of great success
I grew up in Denmark, and I must urge you to start liking paying high taxes, eating fish for breakfast and cycling everywhere...I miss it so much
Dear John,
I am an eight grade at Twin Falls Middle School, North Bend WA. Many of my peers and I love your book The Fault in Our Stars, as well as Hank and your videos on this channel. I have been hoping since the first time I watched Crash Course History that I could meet with you to talk, ask and learn more about the creative process of your writing and what inspired you to do what you do today.
Thank you for your time,
Duncan Harrison
the american dream, the most successful ad campaign in history.
Eh, the American Dream at least has some truth to it, and in fact used to be really true (at least compared to other options). I think the Confederacy is a much more successful ad campaign
@Salamanduh Mann remind me the movie about Mcdonalds where the brothers shows their secrets to a stranger and finally lose everything even the name
@@change_5088 the founder good movie 👍🏽
Clickbait
I am a female computer programmer and got offered a job both in the US and in Norway. I'm moving to Norway.
See, this is discouraging to me. (But I don't blame you. Norway is lovely.) -John
+engers
Norway is very nice but very expensive. To give you an idea how expensive it is the Tesla is one of the fast growing cars there and they are not cheap.
Taxation in Norway is very high as well so be prepared for that. Private healthcare is not as easy to find their either.
The strongest argument in favour of low university and college tuition fees is the upward mobility ceiling for the working poor. Laid across the track of those hoping for more through education, they compound the cultural and social factors that impair upward mobility.
Here in Canada, our tuition fees have risen astronomically, in less than one generation. Scholarships are an imperfect solution.
As a Canadian university student, I couldn't agree more.
I hear you. Tuition fees are a trevesty. Not only because they kneecap social mobility, but also because in the long term, having them is more costly to society than not having them, on account of education not being handed out based on merit.
***** spelunkerd Is this not also the case in America, though?
***** But why are schools businesses? Is that the best model? I don't know personally what the solution to this problem is, but if we don't recognize it as a problem and challenge the whole system from top to bottom, very little will change for the better, and that change will be incredibly slow.
Same in the states. I graduated high school in 2005. In 2005, I could attend the local community college for $54/credit with tuition and fees accounted for. Nine years later, going back for additional education is costing me $96/credit. That is a $42 or 78% jump in just nine years- trust me, my income has not jumped that much in that time, nor has inflation. If cost of college rose at the normal rate of inflation (17% in this time frame), college should cost $65/credit, not $96.
And that is for the 'cheaper' option of community college, not a four year school. I went to a private school for a bachelor's degree and in two years, I saw a $2,400 increase per year cost on the tuition- from $21,300 to $23,700. I had some financial aid and scholarships to help cover it, but believe me- I'm still paying on those student loans. Would have been wiser to go elsewhere, but I can't speak for the wisdom of myself when I was 18.
I could keep going on, but instead I'll just link this page- it's quite sobering.
trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/tuition-and-fee-and-room-and-board-charges-over-time-1973-74-through-2013-14-selected-years
I'm from Ireland, BA Honors degree, and I lived in America for about 4 months. I had a job interview nearly every week, and actually found work. Now I've been back in Ireland for about 7 months and I have not had a single interview. On top of that, the jobs I was going for in America were paying anywhere between 12 - 25 dollars per hour. The only jobs here in Ireland now are either 0 hour contracts or unpaid 9 month internships. Part of the American dream is simply the opportunity for a better life. With that in mind, I think it's still around.
I wish you would revisit this topic now. Since it’s been almost a decade when you made this video. ❤
Most studies into the cause of the wage gender gap indicate that only a small percentage of that is due to discrimination, and the rest is due to how many hours and experience are available to women in different fields. The way you talked about it, you'd think it was only due to discrimination. Remember: correlation doesn't always prove direct causation. The solution to this problem is thus not so simple as fighting sexism, and has more to do with opportunity itself. Like you always say, John, truth defies simplicity.
phillyslasher Actually, while that does play a factor, evidence shows the biggest contributor to the wage gap is due to lack of guaranteed maternity leave.
John's best video in awhile: Smart, informative, thought-provoking.
Hi from Slovenia :)
I am a student. Because of that I get many benefits. All students get free medical insurance, pay no tuition, get food around 40% off (because of special founding), get apartments around 30% off and If you are deprivileged you get additional money, just so you can study.
Dreamy huh?
But when you get your degree it is almost impossible to get a job. There is no job opportunitys. Unemployment rate of young people is 24%. So from our standpoint of view America is a place where people if they want to work can.
Yeah, but not before getting that paper from the uni. ;) Beg možganov, ne?
This is so weird because I've never thought of the American dream being for Americans. I always thought of it as something that's for foreigners, and as someone who spends a lot of time around first-generation Americans (specifically from Asia) it's definitely alive for them. I'm not rich but I sure as heck won't be complaining about the life I have considering what some of my neighbors have come from.
I think Americans need to be a little more grateful, but that's just me though.
americans are fully aware that america is not the nation it should be.
gabriel h I agree, and it's not. I don't like that there seems to be more people whining than taking action.
***** Yep. We Americans love to cry about how hard life is with full stomachs and a roof over our heads.
It's impossible for an ungrateful heart to be happy.
Anastasia Belle Well tell that to the Fire fighters please. I have a gut feeling that you are:
A. Sweet 16 year old and have mom and dad still pay for your stuff.
B. a college student that has not yet gone out in the work force.
C. You come from a VERY well off family.
D. You have little knowledge what has been going on around you.
Look it is great to be little more grateful and we should, but that does not mean we have room for improvements. I knew other first world foreigners that lived here for a few years and moved back to Europe because they would be happier their, I had family that lived in Germany for Years and had kids their too and moved back here and now they want to go back to Germany.
Look at this fun fat the minimum wage is below poverty levels and today you can't survive with minimum wage. In the 90s with 2 or maybe 3 hour of work could fill up your tank of gas for the week or two and feed for lunch and the rest was gravy money for your self. Today it takes about 4 to 5 times with today's minimum wage to do that.
In other words yes their is a goooood reason why Americans love to cry about how hard life is now a days.
Landsknecht 86 A) wrong B) wrong C) wrong D) wrong. You might want gastric-bypass on that gut LOL.
Who said life is supposed to be easy?
Where did I say we shouldn't try to improve?
Good for the foreigners you knew..?
Vast majority of Americans don't live on minimum wage.
Opportunity doesn't get thrown at [most] people and it sure as hell wasn't thrown at me. It's something people have to find. Don't complain if you're not going to look.
but sure, if you want to cry about how much your life sucks while people run circles around you, that's your prerogative.
I feel like the editing is less about easing the flow of his speech and more about cutting out every time he blinks.
That stat comparing the income of men & women is wrong as far as i'm aware. If you're referring to the same data I've seen which included similar numbers, it doesn't take into account the actual jobs people are doing.
You're supposed to compare it on a job by job basis, not on overall. Men are more likely to earn danger pay and go into professions that require high levels of commitment, thus extra income.
For example, the retail industry (which has a high proportion of females) is one of the lowest earning industries and that heavily reduces the overall income women make. You also have to take into account that a lot of women only do part time, but that still gets added to women's overall income.
Vlogbrothers yet again showing blind feminism.
This is the one thing they harp on that I truly disagree with.
One thing, though: The reason (besides the stuff about women being the ones that carry children) WHY women take the jobs they do and don't take the jobs that they don't is almost entirely the fault of society and how we raise girls and then treat them when they're in positions of power. I'm not a big supporter of the Ban Bossy thing because I think it misses the mark a bit, but the IDEA is valid, at least.
If you account for occupation, years of experience etc. You find the the wage gap is something like 5 cents in the US, which would only get two penny sweets in the UK.
Also, the ten most remunerative college degrees are over 80% male. Meanwhile, in the ten least remunerative degrees it varies between 60 and 90% female.
I believe from what I've heard before that the 77cents per dollar is average for the same careers, obviously not all careers are the same, so they average the pay discrepancy. But as I said before this is not true for all professions, in fact women who are gynecologists make more on average than men who are gyns.
Thalia Irwin I think I've done enough research to know that's not true, on top of any anecdotal evidence I can give. But this is RUclips comments, and I really feel like the facts speak for themselves. Do a quick Google search.
Thalia Irwin The 77 cents to the dollar is across the board, it adds up all full time adult pay I believe. It doesn't separate by career, experience etc.
It's not an average of pay gaps in various industries, it's an overall paygap by gender. That's why it's stupid.
In my sociology class last semester we talked about the "American Dream" and we talked about what we thought that meant. Most of us said it was the opportunity to get some form of higher education, own a house, have a family if you want, and own a car. Just about all of those things require most people to be in substantial amounts of debt. I found it interesting that to live the American dream, you almost always have to owe someone money. It seems weird to me that that's basically what we work towards because we've been told that's what we should have, even if we can't afford to get their on our own.
My father moved from the USSR to here when he was 16 (in 1976). He now works for Oracle makes plenty of money and never took any government help. I'm proud to be his son.
He actually did take government help. Unless he somehow never drove on a road or enjoyed the protection of a society governed by law and order. I'm really glad you're proud of your father though, you should be, sounds like he's done a lot to be proud of.
Seamalicous yeah I agree with you.. but i am sure he meant that his dad paid for all of the things you mentioned through tax.. instead of receiving redistributed tax from the government..
omg....can not belive that you talked about Slovenia. When Hank did on the Olimpics topic I was shocked but now I am shaking. No one even knows where it is and here is John Green talking about it.
thank you I guess :)
p.s. I didn't understand a word when you read the title. I didn't even know there is a slovenian version, I'll have to buy it, because I only have the signed english version.
srsly i'm very thankful i live in Denmark cause there is basically social equality for everyone. if you want to be successful and have a well paid job and so on, all you have to do is do well in school basically, which you get paid for (education support) to go to, we also have paid maternity leave and free healthcare, sure yes we have to pay a bit more taxes but hey it's worth it! cause it ensures that everyone has an equal shot at making it which benefits us all in the end :D
Strangely enough Americans who always harp about "Equality of opportunity not equality of results" usually don't know their country has one of the worst equality of opportunity scores in the western world. Just goes to show how the average American doesn't know much about anything.
You had me until you wrote "the average American doesn't know much about anything." I am fully aware of this issue and am thoroughly disgusted by it, but I have no power here.
ACubed Sure. Of course you know of it but you're not average are you?
Hannu Marijarvi
"Just goes to show how the average American doesn't know much about anything."
Well. That was kind of assholish.
butwhy not In an empire of lies telling the truth is a character flaw.
"Do you know why we don't have a dream in this country? In Great Britain? Do you know why there is no British dream mate?
It's because we're fucking awake." -Al Murray
Holy crap, I've been making the Danish dream argument since elementary school. I never thought I'd hear from a non Dane though. Props.
"It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin
Jan Cloosterman
And Geroge Carlin is a idiotic, unfunny comedian, trying to look smart. Post something...lets say more original, ok?
@@IkeOkerekeNews He was right though.
@@MazBringsby
Not really. The American Dream is whatever you want it to be.
@@IkeOkerekeNews thats just another way of saying its not real.
@@liberalbias4462
Uhh...no.
I love how you actually turned to the side to make your side point.
"Depending on how pretentious you are." "Come on." Ha! I love John Green. Also, I love the way he helps spread information on politics, world events, economics, and so much more . . . but yeah, I love what a great and funny guy he is.
"It's called the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin
How much of the lack of upward mobility for poor people in the US is opportunity and how much of that is social i.e. how we are raised and grow up, especially if we are raised in a poor family? How is an average 18 year old from a poor family in a random European country different from an average 18 year old from a poor US family in terms of skills already acquired by that age, attitude, work ethic, financial management, family support, etc?
I want to point out that particularly in the field of computer programming, wage inequality is not statistically significant, per recent research: qz.com/182977/there-is-no-gender-gap-in-tech-salaries/
You can make a case for hiring discrimination, absolutely. And there's certainly a disparate gender representation in both jobs and education interest in software. However, this is one particular case where wage inequality is a much less significant issue than it may be in other fields.
One issue I heard about which apparently 'justifies' wage inequality across professions is due to women taking time off for maternity leave or other forms of familial obligation, like elder care.
What do the statistics say to verify or disabuse this notion?
DylanEHoover That's certainly an argument that could be made. You can talk about educational opportunity disparity, gender implications in wage negotiation, as well as benign factors such as disparate interests in different-paying fields.
But that's one of the reasons I really dislike the "Women make X for every dollar a man makes" statistic. It obfuscates real information that might want to be concerned about.
If women have a more difficult time negotiating salaries, what does that say about office culture?
If fewer women are interested in traditionally higher-paying fields, what does that say about culture and education? Are there legitimate reasons for disproportionate interests based on gender? Do we need to reevaluate the value of particular jobs to address gender inequity?
There are a lot of issues behind the "Women make X, men make Y" problem, and I worry that by oversimplifying, we're not only ignoring factors that may "justify", but also ignore the breadth of contributing factors.
It just happens that presently, when it comes to tech salaries, that isn't one of those factors.
DylanEHoover the counterargument to that is that women work harder when in the workforce, and bring an entirely new way of thinking to the workplace. If you have time, I recommend watching the video in the bottom of the post for more information on how that works. At the very least, you'll probably find it entertaining.
The problem is, corporations (not people, companies) justify paying women less because maternity leave is an easily measured, quantifiable figure, whereas these other values, while possibly worth significantly more to a diverse workplace, are not nearly as easily measured. There is no "correct" or "proper" way to measure effort spent besides hours worked, which is what many companies use and is a narrow-minded way of thinking at best.
Mark Gungor - Men's Brain Women's Brain
HashSl1ng1ngSlasher "women work harder when in the workforce, and bring an entirely new way of thinking to the workplace"
I think it's a mistake to say that about an entire gender. It is just as possible for a company to improve their productivity and innovation by hiring another white male. We need to treat people as individuals. And yes, while there are neurological differences between men and women, we can't automatically assume things like "hiring a woman will help us see increased connections between multiple projects!" If that's true for the individual, then great! Hire that person!
And that's also not to discount the issue of maternity. If companies pay a woman less because she'll take maternity leave, that's wrong. But it's wrong not because "women work harder", or "women bring diversity". It's wrong because it's a discriminatory policy.
Women shouldn't have to *justify* maternity leave.
There's little wage gap in most fields. The wage gap today comes largely from women occupying different professions, not from being paid differently for similar work.
By coincidence I am from Slovenia, listening to john and hank green.... and i have lived and worked in New York for 3 years. Back to Slovenia now. The biggest difference is that game in Slovenia is closed and in New York is open. In Slovenia is more WHO you know and NY WHAT you know. Salaries are almost same for everyone in Slovenia, but they are also 2x - 6x lower than NY. the reason for this difference is that in NY you need to negotiate and work hard to get high salary. In Slovenia you just get a salary that everybody is getting... so things are not as simple as they may seem at first sight.
The 77 cents on the dollar statistic isn't really controlled for hours, risk and experience, as many of the other commenters have pointed out. I'm curious if you would argue that in Slovenia women make closer to equal to men because they HAVE to work and don't have the option of staying home to take care of kids (thereby removing years of experience from their pay) or to choose more satisfying work over better pay?
John finding out Paper Towns is becoming a movie has made my day SO MUCH BETTER considering I found out I have to get surgery this Friday. I LOVE YOU AND NAT AND THE PEOPLE MAKING FAULT AND I'M SO EXCITED
Someone already asked this, but how is our (Canadian) economy weird? Everyone knows how other countries see the US. I would love to know how other countries see Canada, besides the usual "They're so nice!"
I am a female programmer. Thanks for the shout-out, John.
Glad to see people are calling out the $0.77 statistic. It's not discrimination it comes down to choice's women make vs the choices men make.
even if you account alle these choices and only look at men and women same age same experience same job there is still a gap! it is not that big anymore but there still is a gap and that is really bad! also some of the choices women do not make on their own they make choices because society or family tells them to.
Sooooo we get punished monetarily wise for having to bear the children? I'll happily swap it around so you dudes can carry the kids and go through labour so I can instead have the freedom to sleep around without stigma and get more money per hour than you! Go ahead! Bear the fruit of our loins instead of vice versa. We'll see how well you do then.
Amanda Mitro well you see women get pregnant and babys and stuff men don't thats unfair but its only a tiny part or why women get paid less. many women take a year or more off to take care of their children so they have less experience, they often take part time jobs, they are less willing to work far away from home and they often take less risksy jobs.
that are some reasons men can't change, but if a women with the same experience gets paid less for the same job its unfair and we all have to fight against that!
Amanda Mitro
There should be obligatory maternal (and paternal) paid leave...but that doesnt change the fact that the gap is almost entirely, if not completely , based on a womans choice, and not discrimination.
If you want to fight for equal pay, fight for paid parental leave..not some imaginary ghost called discrimination.
bawoman
as i said above there still is a gap! it is not made up!
Hey John,
I was thinking about the word dream, not only in relation to the phrase "The American Dream", but as what the word suggests. To paraphrase an idea you stated in your video. You stated roughly that a dream is more or less the way we want the world to be, but not the way it is. Anyway this got me thinking, and my comment is getting very long and kind of all over the place, which I am sorry for. My friends tell me that I say sorry to much. Maybe it is because I am a girl, and as my history teacher put it, "girls are taught to make things look pretty, while boys are taught to be confident." Or maybe I am just to lazy to delete everything I have already typed, and afraid that my comment isn't relevant to the world around me. I think we all struggle with that independently. I feel as though we all seem to struggle with the idea that our mark on the world won't be more than a head stone without a name. Why do we care? I mean I get how wanting to emotional impact our own species befits us in the issues of forwarding our own genetic code. But once someone is in a martial relationship with children, (which I am not because I am a junior in high school.) Why would they worry about anything, but the protection of their children? Why does it benefit us to look elsewhere for remembrance than our (for me Hypothetical) children?
Back to my original thought and question, why do we call something a dream when it shows a positive emotional value? Or why would we ask someone when we are happy "is this a dream, am I dreaming?" Why is it hard for us to accept what our situation has consequently given us?
There is a song by Imagine Dragons called "Dream". Some of my ideas are expressed though this song, which I have no credit for other than explaining that I have emotionally attached myself to it in some way.
Sorry my comment is so long. I guess my overall issues with consciousness is the question will I be enough for what my situations want me to be? And my answer for that seems to be, as long as I am content with myself anything is relatively possible with a pen, a paper, a voice, a paintbrush, or a building block.
Don't Dream, live.
Hey John! Thanks for doing a video on socioeconomic mobility. I've been thinking about this issue for years and it's nice to know someone else is too.
So many comments basically saying, "data is for suckers, I have an interpretation based on something I kind of notice sometimes."
Data is great, but in this case in used in the wrong context.
Haha, the Danish dream! Ahh, but you see, that would break the law of Jante, surely, we can't have that. Danish culture is actually pretty antagonistic towards ambition, so...
Also I don't think John understands how excited we get when our country is mentioned.
Greetings from Slovenia John Green! Love your books!
To quote the American poet Marshall Mathers:
"You only get one shot; do not miss your chance to blow.
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime, yo.
You can do anything you set your mind to, man!"
I mean, this is obvious bullshit. Opportunity is a stochastic process and there is nothing that sets your personal amount of chances to 1.
Also, to use a very obvious example, there are probably more people who set their minds to becoming president of the United States than there are open positions.
A society where a significant proportion of people actually _believes_ these things can technically only be described as suffering from a mass delusion.
_However_, I can see how this delusion is actually useful, at least on a societal level. If people believe this, they will work harder, take more risks and generally aim higher. Most of them will fail, of course, and that's not the stories you hear about but there are some who bring a real benefit to society.
Unfortunately, the delusion is less useful when it comes to implementing just social policy. After all, everyone is the architect of their own fortune. You are responsible for your success or failure. So ultimately, if you are poor, that's what you deserve. Why should society help you out?
So, the society has an interest in upholding this delusion but the cost is that it screws people over. They fail because they were lead to overestimate their chances, then they are made miserable because they attribute their failure to themselves and then society stomps them in the dirt instead of helping them back up. But hey, we got Apple and Google, so thanks, sucker.
There is a fun little town in Slovenia called Bled it is on the coast of Lake Bled. It comes highly recommended for anyone thinking about a Slovenia trip after this video.
im from slovenia and your video has renewed my faith in my country
Kot ponavadi neponosna slovenka, se s tem strinjam! :)
Zanimivo, koliko nas je. Nikoli si nisem mislila, da toliko slovencev in slovenk gleda Vlogbrothers :D
Se bo treba enkrat zbrat! Od vseh ljudi, ki sem jih spoznala (tudi is drugih držav) so ponavadi nerdfighterji najbolj prijazni in zanimivi. :D
I was going to say something very similar but you put in words way better than I could have.
I'm currently reading The Fault in Our Stars, and I love it!
Just finished Paper Towns (loved it) and I'm going to get my hands on The Fault in Our Stars soon. :D
i just finished it, ITS SO GOOD!
Kapilan Bavananthan How much did you cry?
"Women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes." This does not take into account people working in the same field. PLEASE, stop using this statistic.
Yes, but Slovenia's 97.5 female cents for every dude dollar also doesn't take into account people working in the same field. There is clearly a systemic problem.
I feel like it's a thing to say to pander to the tumblr feminist crowd; a really big goddamn crowd right now.
Tyler Graham Ok then. If there is one though, I want to hear an explanation, not blind reasoning and oversimplification.
GreenGearMood I don't know. I'm not familiar with tumblr's demographics since I barely spend time there. Perhaps that's a good thing.
If you have a tumblr, just stay out of the social justice circles. You can do well to ignore them so long as you never, ever begin to cast them glance.
It funny how when you discuss the american dream you speak of jobs and opportunity. When my English class (IB English 11) discussed it when we were reading Gatsby, we spoke of the big house, 2 kids (preferably one girl and one boy), the fancy things etc. etc. All superficial things. I suppose that's what Americans see but outside America the dream is simple opportunity. And truly a beautiful and poetic thing.
Thank you for turning my opinion around about the dream and making it positive. Also thanks for the stats about how it doesn't work.
You're great!
So just this past week, my english teacher gave us our midterm. Now for a little context, I take an english class at a local community college intended for college sophomores, meanwhile I'm in reality a high school junior. So, it goes without saying that writing is one of my strong suits. I'm not saying I'm the best writer but I'd say I'm above average. After receiving an A last semester I expected more or less the same amount of difficulty for this class. So, the topic for our midterm essay was the American Dream, or more specifically, "What defines the American Dream?" In this I wrote something somewhat similar to this video, saying the the loose definition of American Dream is what allows the term's definitions somewhat fluid. After I started this I went on to elaborate how to the average idea of an American Dream is fiercely inaccurate, stating points similar to John's, and then defining what I felt the American Dream was. (An outdated term that supplies somewhat false hope) So you could imagine my surprise when I discovered that for my efforts I received a 68. Just happy to see I'm not the only one who thinks the American Dream is an inaccurate representation of our counrty
Writing seems important to you, so I think you would benefit from this simple tip: if "it goes without saying", then there is no need to say it. Your writing will be much stronger if you illustrate your meaning rather than using this common, weak qualifier.
Why did you receive such a low score? Obviously your writing abilities are far superior to those of most college students.
@@IMPERIALISM397 sure did!
The American Dream isn't American, and it's not even a dream, it's a nightmare in reality.
You sound like a writer.
Thespiangoddess I'm a film critic, so that's a kind of writer =)
It' called the American dream because "you have to be asleep to believe it."
What about, "you have to be asleep to DREAM it"- because that's what "a dream" is. You don't necessarily have to believe a dream, you can just dream it. In the case of America's, dreaming is enough because in some countries, people don't even have the opportunity to dream.
Ahh, good old Carlin.
"The Danish Dream." Love it. Sounds like an indie rock band.
Sounds like a delicious pastry-based dessert
Benedict Allen you due know is not called danish pastry in Denmark
John Green , you seem to really like Slovenia! I'm a Chicagoan, but I'm currently staying in Maribor with my Slovene fiancée. I showed her this video so she could see that there are some Americans other than myself who appreciate this beautiful country- she says it would be nice if you spoke just a little slower, by the way :). You are welcome to visit any time! We'd be happy to show you around!
I read your comment and I just thought: "oh my gosh I'm from Maribor!" xD I'm kind of freaking out because of this whole video. And it's nice to see at least SOMEONE knows our country.
I'm not American but I'm familiar with the idealogy. Imo the pursuit of happiness is a nice way of phrasing 'fear of unhappiness'.
You let your fear drive you? Yes. That is a bad thing. Embrace unhappiness, let it consume you, cause one day you'll realise you're so unhappy that nothing will ever make you feel worse and when you reach that point all fear eacapes you. Also, I don't know about achieving dreams, unless you're not much of a dreamer, cause the fear of unhappiness is what makes people go for the ordinary life, rather than the extraordinary life. There is nothing worse than chasing your dreams and not being able to catch them. This can break the strongest of men. I get the impression where you're still at the point of thinking you either chase your dreams and succeed or just never chase them at all but no, there are two types of failure when it comes to dream-chasing, this fear is the cancer of the soul. Good luck with that hurdle.
I've never gotten the "redistribution of wealth limits innovation" argument. I've never had the inclination to think, "Gee, I'd really like to help revolutionize science and technology, but I don't think I will because then my tax rate will go up." Sure, you can argue that there's less available capital, but a well-run country invests money in scientific research and education.
I agree. I think that there is a point at which too much regulation will stifle growth, such as in the Soviet Union. However America is so far away from that I think it is really a non-issue. Its like if I have the best idea in the world that will make billions of dollars, tax rates being five or ten or 15 percent higher is not going to somehow make my idea not profitable enough to pursue.
Quinn Weber yeah, the problem with the USSR was that it was a deeply corrupt country. The US's wealth is almost directly linked to its governmental spending, because despite what certain people who work for wealthy companies like to tell you, the free market actually sucks. Just ask any country without a functioning federal government how great their bussiness oppertunities are in their free-market capilistic dreamland of somalia or kenya..
Quinn Weber And the thing with the USSR is that it had a centralized planned economy, which basically meant your job was what the government told you it was. Though even despite that, there was a great deal of technological innovation in the Soviet Union--at least until their economy fell apart.
Mistran5lation While I see your humanized argument, you're forgetting the important fact that, as a corporation, their job is to make money (see the vlogbrothers video about pharmaceuticals). Not to innovate, not to revolutionize, but to make money.
That is their duty to their employers, employees, and stockholders. That means that if the tax rate goes beyond a certain point in a state or country, they MUST consider finding a lower tax rate, because it is their duty to protect the financial interest of the company.
Whether you like Capitalism or Socialism, remember this: rich people will always keep their money. It just might not be here in the U.S.
TheRealBigMac the job of companies is to sell goods and services for money, not just to chase dollars any way they can. It's a shame this country's government isn't as close-fisted about that distinction as other, better countries are..
Wake up America before the dream becomes a nightmare.
Back in the 50s and 60s you could raise a family working as a stocker in a grocery store. Today there's all these ridiculous academic expectations, you have to have a fancy degree to get a decent career which is a fortune itself to obtain. Even then your not guaranteed a career in what you want.
I know, and it completely sucks.
Kevin Contreras
Work experience or building up a business is far more productive than just entering college education after school. Well for most people anyway.
bighands69 Depends on the job you want. Technical degrees and specialized fields like medicine and architecture are still only available through formal education.
As a future DDS in my last year, I'm a bit sick of being told education is worthless. I need the skills, knowledge, degree and a license to do what I want.
But yes, going to college just to have a few letters added to you name or “to find yourself” is a bad investment. IMHO everyone should ask themselves if they can succeed in their field when self taught. If the answer is yes, then don't wait for college but pursue it on your own.
- KoperKat
Dentists, Doctors and School teachers are very specialist roles.
And when a person studies these at school they have an intent to enter these fields. I my self have studied medicine in the past and could not have practiced with out having undertaken formal study and registration.
But for the vast majority and I mean 99% of people college is quite useless as most people entering programs do not actually have intent they are winging it and for some people they find a job and career after this.
But for a growing number of people winging it is not working anymore. Now if a person is average academically and they just about pass they are going to struggle in the real world.
You would be surprised at the amount of people I meet that never went to college and just worked became successful and then gained a degree after this.
There is an education bubble forming and people who are not planning carefully will get caught up in it.
Dean M I As an immigrant; I give up on the American dream!
Take it from a American Culture Studies MA student at a top ten program in the US. The American Dream exists, but doesn't match with reality. He's pretty spot on with his analysis. I think my class is going to watch this video on Friday.
JOHN MENTIONED SLOVENIA (like a year ago but) THATS SO AWSOME!
John, I'd like you to stop using the 77 cents statistic which was proven misleading by every single fact checking site that has seen that statistic. Also, being intelligent and skilled is more important than being wealthy in the United States. My dad came from a poor family in Tai Wan and moved to this country when he was just a child. He, however, was able to due to his abilities and hard work move his way up to owning his own company that is very successful. If you have the skills, you will get a job, especially if your skill is high in demand. A lot of people complain that it is impossible to move up, even though it truly is possible if you work especially hard(note this is not just hard). Obviously people from richer families have it easier, but just because you are born poor doesn't mean you have to stay that way. Working hard in school, making good choices, and learning skills that are readily available will all move you forward.
I know people will college degrees in engineering who still work entry level on oil fields while in their 30's. I know people who are very hard working and very intelligent who have college degrees and have entry level jobs. You're dad is very lucky, but he isn't the norm. All of those things help, but none of those things guarantee any thing. Also John corrected himself in the bottom left corner of his video.
i agree that things won't guarantee anything, but the truth is companies want to find these people just as much as people want to find jobs. No system ensures that your hard work pays off right away. Opportunities will come to people with skills if they put themselves out there. One of the more annoying things I hear is that most rich people didn't earn their money, or always come from rich families, which isn't true. Most of them had to work their butts off and also get lucky. But being lucky is part of becoming wealthy. Bill Gates only became rich because his mom was in a room with a pissed off IBM owner. Things will come to you some way or another and you need to jump on your opportunities. Also, comparing the US to European countries is really unfair considering our population is so much higher.
You know for every family that moves from asia and makes it big in the US there's entire slums of asians that moved from asia and got stuck in the poverty trap, right? Congrats for your dad, but he got lucky.
Deshara
See this is the problem with many statements. People who come here with not as many skills will have to work and gain skills. My dad did get "lucky", but luck comes to those who deserve it. I'm not saying those poor fellows did not deserve it, but what I'm saying is that you need to actually gain skills. Easier said than done obviously, but nothing comes easy. I've seen it, to a lesser extent, in my old high school and now, there are those that do their work and get C's, the ones that work hard and get B's, and the ones that put all they've got into school and get A's. The people with B's feel they've worked hard and deserve the A, but truly there is something extra that most people aren't willing to put in that gets you the A. This is extremely simplified,but you get the point. My dad did not get lucky because of luck, he got lucky because he worked his butt off and was smart in making his choices and something came up for him because of those choices. It is easy to say those who got it good were lucky, but you see they did things to receive the luck. You also have a condescending tone with the he got lucky statement, which is typical behavior for most people.
Alex Chen and what people are telling you is that they've seen some people who "got a C" that work just as much as some people who "got an A"
I'm so happy that you mentioned Denmark :D #danishnerdfighter
Reading some of the comments makes me a little sad. John and Hank do not spew "blind feminism" - these are successful and educated men who wish to educate others about the pros and cons of issues they find interesting. Can we not be appreciative of that endeavor?
P.S. On a more personal note, I think feminism ought to be more highly respected rather than spoken about with spite or disgust. Being a feminist can mean different things for different people, but the overall goal is equality and acceptance.
You had good timing with this video, John. I'm watching this the 19th of March, which is the day of equality in Finland. :)
The points you make about staying in the same "class" bracket as you were born into are spot on. I think that we in the UK are trying to be like the US regarding that thought pattern. You should be allowed to work towards a better life for yourself... For example, at 27, i already earn far more than my parents did...
Saying that, there's a dangerous culture of privatization here in that if you have money then you get access to better education. Which sucks. Even our student finances given to us at University is based upon the earnings of our parents...!
I'd like to point out re:student finance in the UK that you're given *more* money if your parents earned less.
My mum earns below a certain wage bracket and as a result, I get more support from the government (and extra as a bursary from my uni) which means I can actually afford to go to a top University and get myself out of the somewhat low socioeconomic conditions I happened to grow up in. (I know the same doesn't apply to public vs private schools though)
ChirrupForScience Good point well made... You were right to pick up on that from my post as it wasn't clear... My parents earned below the threshold too so i also got more financial aid. I made it sound like a bad thing in my original post, but it's actually one of the fairer parts of education in the UK (apart from how much it actually costs!!)
A huge thank you for the shout-out. Slovenian language is really weird...
As much as we love being mentioned, economic state of our country is really terrible at the moment... also... welcome to come and see our tiny but beautiful country :)
I think the american dream has turned into something that's harder and harder to achieve because of a compromising education system...and the lack of understanding that where you're born isnt a place you have to be for the rest of your life, people get caught up with life sometimes because they fail to realise they're in a small bubble that can be escaped. sort of like a Truman show thing.
p.s. i make vlogs, if like me you're sitting at home wishing you were at playlist... check them out, they might cheer you up :P x
Being danish, I like this video :)
Being Slovenian, I like this video too haha :)
Can I just point out that what I love so much about John and Hank and everything here is that we can have good, decent discussions and even admit to mistakes if we've made some? So yeah. Continue being awesome :)
It does help a lot that Danish people have completely free education and even get support from the government when you're over 18 and still getting your education
Yes funny that, it's almost as if putting financial barriers in front of education makes poor people more disadvantaged in educational outcomes. A novel concept for all too many Americans.
While not a lot of new information for me, this is simultaneously thought-provoking, depressing, and inspiring (the latter only in that it makes me want to do more to change things).
"What is this? Esther day?!" ...maybe not. But there's nothing wrong with spontaneous Esther days. Spreading spontaneous love is important!
***** Time to make it a thing! #SpontaneousEstherDay sounds like a great trend.
That was a great story at the beginning.
I truly admire how optimistic you are. Thanks for restoring, slowly but surely, my faith in humanity. Don't know if you'll see this, but you rock! DFTBA, not that you even need reminding :) John Green *****
Oh hi John, I'm *from* Slovenia! :D
(funny, I think Hank mentioned Tina Maze during the Winter Olympics, and now John is mentioning us, too! :))
[P.S.: we might pay 93 cents for every "dude $" and our current PM is the first female PM we've had since independence, but believe me, we've got a TON of other problems... Still, do come visit, the country is absolutely *gorgeous* :)]
Is there no country on earth where women are statistically paid the same as men? That's pretty depressing.
there are no countries on earth were men and women are statistically the same in any way. The fact that men get paid more compared to woman OVERALL, doesn't prove sexism or misogyni, in the same way that there are 10x more men in prison, compared to women.
None. Not one.
Men and women are fundamentally different.
Adding to what TheGamerArk said, suicide rates are also a lot higher for men.
Anyone else recently watch TheJwittz's "RUclips Removed My Video For No Reason" ? It's a direct attack on content creators and I feel the vlogbros. should really acknowledge this type of crazy youtube madness in their next video.
The Creeper everything can be consider as violating RUclips's rules. Hey you post a vid. that someone doesn't like, oh they are reporting you b/c they said you are bullying them, even though the vid. has nothing to with you! oh well BAN!!
The Creeper That's the thing , Jwittz is a popular youtuber known for his pokemon videos and youtube removed his video without even giving a reason as to why, watch the video. if it can happen to him it can happen to the vlogbros, wheezy waiter, anyone of our youtubers. we need to make youtube aware that their flagging system is flawed they spend so much time updating the site's layout and not enough time enhancing the user experience. the banned video btw can be found in www.polarisgo.com/video/z5MAyQTiMNM6 . after consulting his company and his company consulting their youtube contact only then where they given an answer. it was because his video exhibited "Scam" in no way did this video exhibit scam.
The Creeper Also that "Idiot" is one of the most well known youtube personalities in regards to nintendo , the banned video by the way isn't your run of the mill Pornvid/copypasta/copyright stuff that youtube has a right to ban , that video got over 3 million+ views in 2 years , and his other videos have had an avg views similar if not at times larger than the vlog bros. in the link above there's a link in the doobley doo of the video that lets you watch the banned video , let me know if you find anything that's particularly bad about it.I'm actually curious to hear your thoughts ^_^
Aw yiss, Denmark represent!
Slovenija is fantastic. It's the greatest place I've ever visited. From my limited experiences there, I've gathered that fantastic banter must be a national past time. I could not approve of anything more heartily.
I know this comment is going away from the main conversation down here, but I'm just happy John mentioned Slovenia so many times :) And the Slovenian translation of TFIOS is fantastic btw :) Also, this video simplifies things a lot, but it does make a point and raises conversation so I think it made its purpose.
I just have to disagree, the Slovenian translation is a bit terrible... The original is much better of course and I've read both. :)
The translation is never going to be as good/or the same as the original, even more when you translate between two languages that have big syntaxical and grammatical differences as English and Slovenian do. I still believe the translation is satisfactory and it gets the story/emotion/message throught. But I do realize that many disagree with that :)
"There are no places to run to, only places to run away from"
I just realized John Green has a faux hawk.
Accidental I assure you. -John
I never said it looks bad.
I'm from Slovenia and I didn't even know that women get paid almost the same as men here, that's cool! Glad to find out that even though there are tons of other problems with my country this isn't one of them :)
Also you completely butchered the Slovenian title of TFIOS. Points for trying though! :D
One of my teachers watch you :) I talk to him about your videos all the time!
John omg im so happy you know where slovenia is! we love you so much here and every day i meet new people who love to read your books! we really love you here so you should come here someday :)
John Green drops some knowledge on the American Dream and how realistic is it. Note, this is not The Americone Dream. Which remains tasty and truthy.
Everyone loves feel-good anecdotes, like a hard-working man who starts off poor and creates an amazing business. But those are largely outliers. For every business success story there are twenty failures. Many people work hard and get education but never ''move up the ladder''.
The American Dream is possible. It exists. It just isn't the reality for most people.
Oh Craigslist people....
I feel that lately John has been super serious and teacher-esque in his videos. I miss the Brotherhood 2.0 days with low video quality but lots of nerdy awkwardness that made you feel you were watching peers instead of professionals. However, I really enjoyed this topic and his take on it. Forever a Nerd Fighter.
Hey john green, I know there is an extremely remote chance of you reading this but you are such an inspiration to young writers like me. You are really amazing.
But does the wage gap disappear when you look at specific professions? Isn't the "77 cents per dude dollar" not because a woman gets paid less for the same job, but because women don't do the same jobs as men?
www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap
The Equal Pay Act of the 1970's meant the women have to be paid the same as men for doing the same work, but this is only de jure.
De facto women are often given different job titles from men so they are paid less.
Also if a married women of child baring age is employed by a company they will pay her less so that when she goes on maternity leave they will not loss so much money. I don't think that this last fact applies in America though because you are one of the 10 counties in the world that don't give any paid maternity leave.
Sorry for waffling but these statistics can be so easily warped so you have to be really careful and read them with an open mind to that fact.
Long story short, it's adjusted for occupation.
Maybe the question to ask is, why do more women work in jobs that pay less?
Now the answer to that is highly complex and to solve it would involve a cultural revolution.
Well that's not sexist or offensive at all. :[
Dude..... You just might be the smartest guy on RUclips :)
*insert agreement here*
And the whole "anyone who wants to work, can work" is flawed just by looking at jobless rates in US (as compared to rising pay to top earners and stock market). Go to Korea or Switzerland, ~3% joblessness means you'll probably find work, if you want to work.
In Canada, the discrepency between men and women can be explained by the fact that we chose very different archetypes of workfields. Most peoiple going in more human domains like special care counseling, social work and nursery are women, wheras people going in buisness, law, etc. are male. It's kind of unfair to compare them, but when you actually look at Malke VS Female wage for the same level of work with the same elvel of education and same level of responsibilities, we actually are at 99 cents vs 1 dollar. Not bad.
Unfortunately, you seem to believe that counseling, social work, and nursing are less valuable to society than "male" professions.
I actually find the differences between the numbers when the variables are ignored and when they are not to be really interesting. They seem to suggest that the inequalities are not necessarily to do with payroll or workplace policies, but something deeper in the culture.
phoenyx burning I think there is a difference in hazard though. It's not that social work or nursing is less valuable but that it is less dangerous. Every high-risk field is largely filled by male workers. The people who put electric lines back up in an ice storm get paid more than the people who process the electrocution insurance claim through workmans comp.
I am all for women earning every cent made by a man in jobs where both are doing the exact same job but the national discrepancy doesn't come from horizontal comparisons. It comes from the average work-to-danger ratios crossed against gender. That's a different thing.
I think when you see more women fishers, roofers, linesman, pipefitters, etc. You will start to see more pay equalization of the national average.
I know a girl-lady from Slovenia. She Speaks Slovene as her mother language, Croatian as a second, and is teaching English and German in Spain in Spanish.
Oh did I also mention she's learning French. She also speaks Serbian. Her brother is in the correct circumstances to become the next Nicola Tesla.