IT MATTERS: CUT THE BINDING CHANNEL (side) FIRST Great instructional! At 5:13, the question is asked if it matters which to cut first, purfling channel (top) or binding channel (side). If the tool used is the StewMac type with the white donut conic ring (shown), it matters. Look at the conic ring @5:15 where it touches the top (which is cutting the preferred binding-first). The donut does not have much contact area as it glides along the top, cutting the binding channel. If you are cutting a wide top purfling, FIRST, like a herringbone with contrast strips, you will remove the very top that the conic donut is riding on (and indexes from). You will no longer have a top surface to ride on if you cut a wide top purfling first. This happened to a friend once. after a wide purfling channel was cut, the conic had less than 1.0mm to ride on when doing the side channel, I had just routed to top off. I had to modify the white conic on a lathe to make it work. You've been warned LOL....
There are more than three ways with a router. When I worked at Collings we would mount the router horizontally and move the guitar body over an extension that was connected to the router. This method, although tricky at first, is very efficient and well suited for production guitar making.
I'd always heard that one should only run a spinning router from left to right, to spin the chips out and to keep a constant drag on the bit, but you seem to go either way with alacrity...have I fallen to victim to some shop lore of a dubious nature? Love your series by the way, LMI and you guitar gods have taught me so much.
Realize I'm replying to a 12 year old post here and you've probably lost your fingers or destroyed a guitar top by now (kidding), but here goes. You're right, and you heard correctly. In general you want to move a router counter clockwise around a workpiece so that your muscles are working against the rotation of the cutter. By doing this you get a very controlled cut. Clockwise, called a climb cut, the spinning bit wants to keep the router moving in the direction you are already moving it resulting in a jumpy, sometimes uncontrolled movement. However there are times when it is appropriate to make a climb cut. When working moving the bit into endgrain, going the proper direction has a tendency to grab the wood and tear out, which can make you pretty sad. Going the 'wrong' direction in these situations effectively uses the backside of the bit almost eliminating tear out. As long as you're prepared to control the router and take very shallow cuts you'll be fine.
What you refer to is commonly called a climb cut in router jargon. In general you want to feed the piece into the cut. A climb cut is going with the cut and not against it or into it. There is a time and place for using this technique in woodworking and I prefer to use it here as I have shown.
climb cutting is an absolute necessity when cutting binding ledges, otherwise the router cutter will tear chunks out of the edge of the soundboard when you are cutting "uphill", that is from the narrow waist to the outer edge of the upper or lower bout. The best way to remember which direction to go is to think of it like skiing, ie you always go "downhill." Either that, or do the whole guitar with a climb cut.
Great vid bud...interesting stuff. PLUS... the first vid I have watched on the internet containing the phrase 'rides up and down on a shaft' that I wasn't worried if the wife caught me watching. :)
@RedIV Removing a guitar top is a major overhaul that could be compared to a heart bypass! haha There is no easy way of doing it and there are always complications. The guitar will never be the same, especially if you install a new top. The tone will change. There is a lot to consider before moving forward.
Hey OBrien. I miss the explanation of how to use the handcrafted tools for cutting binding channels. Can we get a video of this please. Because I am a student and don't have the money for all these special tools. So the handcrfated version is the cheapest. thanks chers, Alex
Which model Porter Cable laminate trimmer are you using, or what do you suggest for this? I see some luthier tool companies offering special router attachments to create an angle to maintain 90 degrees, but it seems to make more sense to just get a tilt base. Also, can you do inlay work with the laminate trimmer as well?
hey bro.. where i can find binding?? what do you prefer glue or acetone?? i see some video he used acetone to fit it.. thanks for the wonderful demo video
Hello. At 1:45 or so, what is a "skosh" (sp???) used in your sentence as in 'a "skosh" proud...' ? Also, for beginners like me, it would have been good to receive some details about the detailed procedure for selecting the router cutter bit and bearing, in relation to the binding size. I realize it is possible to do trial and error learning, but instructions in the video would be wonderful.
The real question is how do you get a flat bottom to the channel when going around a cutaway on the slope of the back arch? All of these methods will cut a crescent shaped angle at the bottom that gets increasingly pronounced with the steepness of the slope. The use if radius dishes exacerbates the problem, but it’s so slight around the top and most of the back that it’s really only the cutaways where it becomes problematic. I don’t know of a solution except to tidy the channels with a chisel.
Robert, at 1:26 it looks like you widened the slot of your trimmer's shoe to clear the bit. I bought a swivel base for my Bosch Colt and the smallest dia. rabbeting bit I could find (1"), only to discover my bit won't fit within the slot. I cannot find a listing for a rabbeting bit that would safelyt fit within my slot (5/8 dia. or less). Do you know of one, or is my only option to resize the slot? I might have to add an additional shoe and find longer screws to accomodate the bit depth.
I use the binding cutter and bearing set from LMI - www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/binding-tools/binding-cutter-bearings I did have to alter the base of the PC trimmer just a skoshe. It was a quick fix.
OBrienGuitars Thanks for the info. The carbide cutter & kit I bought is the same size as the LMI version, but is much less expensive and local to me - www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30110&cat=1,46168,46176&ap=1. I opened the slot and added a lexan spacer plate with longer screws. Planning to use bloodwood binding, but everything I read about it says I'm in for a real hard time bending it. First 3/16" x 3/16" test piece broke, I'm sure.
This Is probably a silly question I noticed some purfling lines were the same height Does that mean you can cut the Chanel a bit deeper to compensate for the purflings?
On my classical guitars the purflings are the same height as the bindings so I cut one channel. On my steel string guitars my purflings are half the height of my channels so I cut two channels.
Thank you very much! Therefore you suggest a laminate trimmer verses a small router as the main cutting tool for all three methods described in this video? I am primarily cutting a binding channel for a les paul style maple-carved-top guitar. Thanks again!
not a hugely clear explanation of "climb cutting" for anybody who isn't already familiar with the terminology. If you are standing at the workbench, and the router cutter is between you and the workpiece, then a climb cut is made by moving the router from right to left. If the router cutter is on the far side so that the workpiece is between you and the cutter, then a climb cut is made by moving the router from left to right.
IT MATTERS: CUT THE BINDING CHANNEL (side) FIRST
Great instructional! At 5:13, the question is asked if it matters which to cut first, purfling channel (top) or binding channel (side). If the tool used is the StewMac type with the white donut conic ring (shown), it matters. Look at the conic ring @5:15 where it touches the top (which is cutting the preferred binding-first). The donut does not have much contact area as it glides along the top, cutting the binding channel. If you are cutting a wide top purfling, FIRST, like a herringbone with contrast strips, you will remove the very top that the conic donut is riding on (and indexes from). You will no longer have a top surface to ride on if you cut a wide top purfling first.
This happened to a friend once. after a wide purfling channel was cut, the conic had less than 1.0mm to ride on when doing the side channel, I had just routed to top off. I had to modify the white conic on a lathe to make it work. You've been warned LOL....
The best tutorial ever. Even this is old video, but we got more information than videos nowdays.
You are welcome. I am glad you found it useful.
Thank you soooo much for taking the time to teach us this...MOST INVALUABLE!!
Billo
There are more than three ways with a router. When I worked at Collings we would mount the router horizontally and move the guitar body over an extension that was connected to the router. This method, although tricky at first, is very efficient and well suited for production guitar making.
JIGeddy Nice, Gives lots of ideas to a guy looking to make a setup, I see drawer slides & commonly available goodies from the DIY center..
I'd always heard that one should only run a spinning router from left to right, to spin the chips out and to keep a constant drag on the bit, but you seem to go either way with alacrity...have I fallen to victim to some shop lore of a dubious nature?
Love your series by the way, LMI and you guitar gods have taught me so much.
Realize I'm replying to a 12 year old post here and you've probably lost your fingers or destroyed a guitar top by now (kidding), but here goes. You're right, and you heard correctly. In general you want to move a router counter clockwise around a workpiece so that your muscles are working against the rotation of the cutter. By doing this you get a very controlled cut. Clockwise, called a climb cut, the spinning bit wants to keep the router moving in the direction you are already moving it resulting in a jumpy, sometimes uncontrolled movement. However there are times when it is appropriate to make a climb cut. When working moving the bit into endgrain, going the proper direction has a tendency to grab the wood and tear out, which can make you pretty sad. Going the 'wrong' direction in these situations effectively uses the backside of the bit almost eliminating tear out. As long as you're prepared to control the router and take very shallow cuts you'll be fine.
haha!! Thanks for watching and Happy Building!
What you refer to is commonly called a climb cut in router jargon. In general you want to feed the piece into the cut. A climb cut is going with the cut and not against it or into it. There is a time and place for using this technique in woodworking and I prefer to use it here as I have shown.
climb cutting is an absolute necessity when cutting binding ledges, otherwise the router cutter will tear chunks out of the edge of the soundboard when you are cutting "uphill", that is from the narrow waist to the outer edge of the upper or lower bout.
The best way to remember which direction to go is to think of it like skiing, ie you always go "downhill." Either that, or do the whole guitar with a climb cut.
It is the Porter Cable 7310 with a tilt base
It is a binding cutting bit from Luthiers Mercantile International.
I am using the 7310 model. You can do inlay work with this trimmer but I prefer smaller units like a dremel.
Thanks so much!
Not sure I understand your question. I cut the channels and use glue to hold them in place.
love your videos,always very imformative,thanks for sharing.
@softailcayenne
Thank you. I have not done a video on how to do it by hand yet. Perhaps one day I will.
It is the 1/4 in ch shank. The depth is whatever the binding channel needs to be.
Maestro soy Juan Carlos Rojas de BOLIVIA...ahora un gran admirador suyo.
Muchas gracias y un grande abrazo desde Colorado.
Great vid bud...interesting stuff. PLUS... the first vid I have watched on the internet containing the phrase 'rides up and down on a shaft' that I wasn't worried if the wife caught me watching.
:)
@RedIV Removing a guitar top is a major overhaul that could be compared to a heart bypass! haha There is no easy way of doing it and there are always complications. The guitar will never be the same, especially if you install a new top. The tone will change. There is a lot to consider before moving forward.
@alvin10388 These router bits have 1/4 inch shanks and therefore will not fit the Dremel tool, which has a 1/8 inch shank.
@Schlafanzugmen It is on my list of topics to address. Maybe one day I can find time to do it.
the Fleishman jig is available at blues creek guitars
No, you are correct. I went back and read your post again and I misunderstand, sorry.
@OBrienGuitars Thank you Sir.
I have used all kinds of glue. Titebond, LMI white glue, hide glue, fish glue, CA glue. They all will work fine
Thank you for the explanation but did you mean to say the opposite of what you wrote?
Thanks. This was great.
Hey OBrien. I miss the explanation of how to use the handcrafted tools for cutting binding channels. Can we get a video of this please.
Because I am a student and don't have the money for all these special tools. So the handcrfated version is the cheapest.
thanks
chers, Alex
I used a sander to remove the grooved edge.
@sirgreggins8824 I don't know which roller you have. Make it and give it a shot. If it works then you are in business!
Which model Porter Cable laminate trimmer are you using, or what do you suggest for this? I see some luthier tool companies offering special router attachments to create an angle to maintain 90 degrees, but it seems to make more sense to just get a tilt base. Also, can you do inlay work with the laminate trimmer as well?
hey bro.. where i can find binding?? what do you prefer glue or acetone?? i see some video he used acetone to fit it.. thanks for the wonderful demo video
thanks so much for the lesson and i am a customer of the lmi,are these router bits will fit with dremel tools?
did you get that smooth edged file from somewhere or did you just modify a file to have a smooth edge?
Can you tell me the brand and model of the first router you use? The one with adjustable angle.
Hello. At 1:45 or so, what is a "skosh" (sp???) used in your sentence as in 'a "skosh" proud...' ? Also, for beginners like me, it would have been good to receive some details about the detailed procedure for selecting the router cutter bit and bearing, in relation to the binding size. I realize it is possible to do trial and error learning, but instructions in the video would be wonderful.
@thewestwoods those are called binding cutter bits and I get them from lmi dot com
The real question is how do you get a flat bottom to the channel when going around a cutaway on the slope of the back arch? All of these methods will cut a crescent shaped angle at the bottom that gets increasingly pronounced with the steepness of the slope. The use if radius dishes exacerbates the problem, but it’s so slight around the top and most of the back that it’s really only the cutaways where it becomes problematic. I don’t know of a solution except to tidy the channels with a chisel.
A file works well if needed but a chisel will also solve the problem if it exists.
That brand router bits? what are they called in terms of style of bit?- Thanks, Mark
I purchase binding at luthier supply warehouses, Luthiers mercantile International is one. I don't use acetone.
Your third jig looks like a Fleishman jig. Is there some place I can buy the plans to make one?
@OBrienGuitars thanks :-) would be nice ;-)
I;m making the jig at 4:18. I found a nylon roller at homedepot. Is this going to work the same?
is binding a guitar absolutely mandatory on a n acoustic guitar or is it just for looks
Dear Robert,
Is there any plans available of the two last methods used?
Thanks.
I am not aware of any plans out there. Seems to me I remember seeing some plans sometime in my career though, I just can't remember where.
ok, then what did you use to fit the binding?
Robert, at 1:26 it looks like you widened the slot of your trimmer's shoe to clear the bit. I bought a swivel base for my Bosch Colt and the smallest dia. rabbeting bit I could find (1"), only to discover my bit won't fit within the slot. I cannot find a listing for a rabbeting bit that would safelyt fit within my slot (5/8 dia. or less). Do you know of one, or is my only option to resize the slot? I might have to add an additional shoe and find longer screws to accomodate the bit depth.
I use the binding cutter and bearing set from LMI - www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/binding-tools/binding-cutter-bearings I did have to alter the base of the PC trimmer just a skoshe. It was a quick fix.
OBrienGuitars Thanks for the info. The carbide cutter & kit I bought is the same size as the LMI version, but is much less expensive and local to me - www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30110&cat=1,46168,46176&ap=1.
I opened the slot and added a lexan spacer plate with longer screws. Planning to use bloodwood binding, but everything I read about it says I'm in for a real hard time bending it. First 3/16" x 3/16" test piece broke, I'm sure.
No, what I wrote is exactly what I meant , is there anything which seems to be contradictory ?
This Is probably a silly question I noticed some purfling lines were the same height
Does that mean you can cut the Chanel a bit deeper to compensate for the purflings?
On my classical guitars the purflings are the same height as the bindings so I cut one channel. On my steel string guitars my purflings are half the height of my channels so I cut two channels.
OBrienGuitars
Cool
Thanks again
also how did you smooth that file edge?
You can purchase them that way or you can simply take it to a sander and make it smooth.
What glue You used to stick binding ?
Thank you very much! Therefore you suggest a laminate trimmer verses a small router as the main cutting tool for all three methods described in this video? I am primarily cutting a binding channel for a les paul style maple-carved-top guitar. Thanks again!
Absolutely. You will thank me later.
Skoshe means a little bit. Happy Building!
Do you sell or have plans for the router-holding arm device shown at 6:45?
+DaveRumZ I am sorry I do not have or sell plans for the jig you mentioned.
What does skoush proud mean?
a little bigger or larger...
not a hugely clear explanation of "climb cutting" for anybody who isn't already familiar with the terminology.
If you are standing at the workbench, and the router cutter is between you and the workpiece, then a climb cut is made by moving the router from right to left. If the router cutter is on the far side so that the workpiece is between you and the cutter, then a climb cut is made by moving the router from left to right.
I do not. Perhaps one day I will do one.
I am not aware of any.
I purchase binding at luthier supply warehouses, Luthiers mercantile International is one. I don't use acetone.