It was great to be here - So much fun working on this video with you! Do be sure to let us know if random animations of yours deteriorate into black and white line-art, it's a side-effect of inter-cartoon-dimensional travel that we haven't quite solved yet. -Blue & Red
I actually discovered Hello Future Me through you two over at OSP, love it when you guys collab on vids (and this one was no exception) I think all of you are awesome!
I was expecting you two to come through and say "Well, he said all life, so when the snap happened, it turns out being dead inside from College Exam Burnout, we didn't count!"
Several others have talked about Thor, but I think the redeeming moment of his arc is recovering Mjolnir. Even after years of depression and grief and self-doubt and giving up, he realizes that he's still worthy of Mjolnir. Depression and grief don't make him unworthy. And I like that he doesn't immediately get skinny or anything, but he does have new-found confidence and resolve. Plus when Steve picks it up, he seems sort of happy for him with that "I knew it"
Your final point is one I love. Thor's reaction in Age of Ultron is of worry, because he bases his being on his worthiness for the hammer. If someone else can lift it, what's the point of him? But after his journey since Ragnarok, he has learnt to be worthy without the hammer. He crafted Stormbreaker, he got beaten down, but has risen back. When he wields both weapons he is more Thor than he has ever been, and his acceptance of himself means he doesn't carry that anxiety anymore. He's able to just be happy that Steve is also worthy. So many don't seem to 'get' Thor in Endgame, but I love his story SO much.
I appreciated this part as well, and saw what they were going for, but for some reason it still didn't stick for me when watching. Like the scene where he takes back Mjolnir seemed almost glossed over, that it could've been 10x times as impactful if the scene had really paused for a good few seconds on Thor's reaction to being worthy, an earnestness in "I really wasn't sure that it would work."
Jared Carter on my first viewing of the film I didn’t even realize its importance because to me (the outside viewer) there was never any doubt that Mjolnor would reapond, so I agree. That he didn’t lose his worthiness is a fact we as the audience take for granted because we are not privy to his thoughts and point of view in IW and the prologue of Endgame, so it doesn’t have the emotional payoff that it should. Only on secind viewing did I catch on to the implications of Mjolnir coming back to post-snap Thor
Glettification I understand and love that scene as well however to me honestly it seems like he’s running from his responsibilities in the end passing them off. While some might say that is the higher part of honor he doesn’t say that it is because he believes he cannot lead or that she is a greater leader than him rather he says it’s not who I am. However the whole point of growth is understanding that sometimes we must put aside ourselves so that we can be what is required of us. He abandoned everything (which I can agree has been earned) however there is no payoff. No matter how many people say they like the new character named Thor it is a regression of character growth. He wields the hammer but he is not the Thor that has grow over the infinity saga not anymore. He is more akin to the Thor we knew from Thor 1 than from Ragnarok even at the conclusion of the movie.
In The Avengers: Tony: "I read everything about your accident. Such a high dose of radiation... should have killed you." Bruce: "You are saying that the Hulk saved my life? That's nice. A nice thought. But saved for what?" Tony: "Guess you will have to find out." In Endgame: Bruce: "It's like I was made for this."
Steve in avengers: "You're not the one to make the sacrifice play; to lay down your life on a wire and let the other guy crawl over you." Tony threw himself in the wormhole with a nuke to stop the chitauri. Tony dies to snap away Thanos. "You're a lab experiment, Rogers. Everything special about you came out of a bottle." Steve leads the avengers, using a keen tactical mind and keeping a cool head in the face of an alien invasion. Steve, a mortal man, lifts Mjolnir, a hammer fit for gods. Stuff said in avengers had a payoff later in the movie, and later in endgame too. Good writing in my humble opinion.
@@alecchristiaen4856don’t forget the bit about Natasha owing Clint a debt and her saving him in Avengers and sacrificing herself to give him a happy life in Endgame.
As a person who is overweight and struggles with depression and PTSD, Thor's struggle with his emotions rang truest to me and the teams struggle to deal with him and their varied reactions to him felt real too. Not everyone, especially people dealing with their own trauma, knows how to deal with someone so clearly broken. Especially when most of the team has been shown to deal with their emotions through dark humour. For people who have never struggled with that fear and complete lack of self motivation, I can see how it might seem out of place or just played for laughs, but I've read a lot people's comments who feel the same as me. I hope with further viewing people might begin to look deeper at what is really happening with Thor and the teams reactions to him.
I truly and deeply cried when Thor found himself worthy again, even tho some light music kicked in for one of the funniest scene in the whole movie, my eyes still poured with emotion at that moment
And I think it fits his character development in Ragnarok. He's an insecure crown prince to a violent imperial culture who makes peace with himself by embracing his inner warmth and good humour. After everything that's happened, it makes sense for him to stick with the friends who still appreciate those parts of him - and it makes sense for Frigga to cap off their meeting with a gentle joke. It's an affirmation that yes, this is still who he is.
His arc was a joke and it wasn in no way realistic. His burden of not being able to win against Thanos was completely written as a joke, which is a trend with Thor for many movies now where they have something good but they turn it into a laugh scene for no reason other than making him the jester of the movie. How is it realistic that someone with clear issues has nobody caring about him (Despite his team being like a family), gains an insane amount of weight which in reality might affect his health, and then drinks in his home playing Fortnite (To further his scenes as a joke, they add some commercial)? In real life, the person in question should be in therapy, his closest family would be caring about him, visiting him often, and trying to get him close to healthy lifestyles in both physical and physicological ways. The team never had any issues dealing with him, and i have no idea where you got that from. Rocket and Thor went for him and just told him that they are going to save the world. That's literally the only scene that becomes somewhat sad, the rest is the team awkwardness handlening a drunk person (which is very common). >I can see how it might seem out of place or just played for laughs, but I've read a lot people's comments who feel the same as me. That's probably only you and those handful of people seeing stuff where there is none. A lot of people like to insert their subjective views and turn something simple into a whole universe for no reason. You literally said you are confident of it because some people wrote the same. If you want a "struggle with depression", Steve and Natasha scenes where those, not the butt of the joke that we know as Thor. Lastly, may i ask what kind of PTSD you have?
This, exactly. It’s like the pattern I have seen is that people who think Endgame “ruined” are people who have never truly felt any meaninful failure, depression or despair (not that I would ever want them to); but those who have find Thor’s to be the brilliant job it is Edit: @Jairo Melchor, you asking “what kind of PTSD” the op has shows that you don’t know what you’re talking about
Blue's interpretation of Thanos is pretty much what the directors described him as in the commentary. It's not about saving the universe. It's about proving he's right.
@@Eruptor1000 Thanos may have believed in his plan, but ultimately he wanted to save his own ego, not half the universe. His plan ultimately fails; not because the Avengers stopped it, but because it never would have worked in the first place. In Avengers Endgame he even admits he was naïve to believe that the world would accept what he did.
@@FieryMeltman The actual Thanos in Infinity war was more balanced in his thoughts but the old Thanos just wanted destruction. Infinity Thanos was at peace with 50% and sacrificed all for his cause but the old Thanos hadn't done this yet but saw and opportunity to do so! He hadn't built up that wisdom yet over the last few years.
Red, Thor is my favourite too. But how he handled his depression is exactly true to life. He's putting on a strong face while his life falls apart in the background and he can't be bothered to even take care of himself anymore.
And He knows he slacks of, but can't do anything against it. He sees himself turn into something pathetic ans that solidifies his Depression. It's so real!
lger2010 he may have been true to life, but he was played for laughs and the movie was kinda tone deaf to what many people struggle with, with him becoming great again with one inspirational speech after the audience laughed at all the jokes at his expense. Ps. I wouldn’t argue real *always* translates to good characters and writing in movies, especially a marvel movie
@@Christian-vq3lr I'd argue that everyone was struggling. You had goody two shoes Steve swearing and also running a therapy group, black window looking like dead inside, Hawkeye killing everyone, Rocket losing his family after you saw how much that worried him in GotGv2. They're all frayed and exhausted and broken. They're going to make cutting jokes to feel something especially since it's directed at a god who until now they viewed as untouchable. Is it good of them to do that? No of course not. Would it probaby happen? Yeah.
The fact that it was true to life was the biggest problem; Thor is a god from another dimension, he's supposed to embody the more fantastical aspects of the MCU. Having him turn into a depressed alcoholic who plays Fortnite, to me at least, just didn't feel true to his character. There have been story arcs in the comics where Thor became unable to lift Mjolnir because he believed himself to be unworthy, and they were really interesting, but they were never played for laughs. Thor's lost almost everything he's held dear at this point, they took what should have been one of the most tragic characters in the film and turned him into the comic relief, it just felt wrong for Thor to be characterized that way.
@@Christian-vq3lr You are missing one important thing. It wasn't just the "one inspirational speech" that fixed him. It was the opportunity to be part of the solution and fix his mistake. That had the most healing effect on him. The motivational speech just helped him commit to the plan. Executing the plan is what helped him out of his depression, as well as talking with his mother whom he never got to say goodbye to.
Thor moments not played for laughs: 1.) Thor telling Hulk not to say Thanos's name. 2.) Thor's final swig of beer before leaving with Hulk/Rocket. 3.) Thor catching the hammer almost crying from happiness. This was one of the best arc's of the movie for me.
Honestly, if War Machine hadn't made that quip about "cheese whiz" when thor was begging to do the Un-snap, and instead been a little more supportive to his buddy on the verge of tears, I don't think anyone would have complained. That was the only moment that a "fat thor" joke felt gratuitous.
Aegix Drakan That can be read a different way though too. I see Rhodey as being genuinely disgusted by Thor and what he has become, but not out of spite for Thor. Rhodey, as a military man, has always tried to be at the peak of strength, both physically and emotionally. Physically, you can see this in his own strength and fitness as well as how heavily armed and armored War Machine/iron Patriot is compared to Iron Man. Emotionally, he bounces back almost immediately after his injury in Civil War, and after the Snap, he continues working with Natasha, Rocket, Captian Marvel, and Nebula to try to rebuild. He’s one of the few characters who, while still showing sadness over what happened, isn’t entirely eaten up by remorse. He sees himself as strong, he fights through his own feelings and struggles and comes out on top. But Thor doesn’t. He’s eaten up by guilt and enters into an intense depression. He becomes weak, physically and emotionally. For Rhodey, this is horrifying, not because pf who Thor is, but because of who Rhodey knows he can be. Is his attitude towards Thor insensitive and demeaning? Yes, completely. But it’s realistic. Rhodey has worked so hard to push down his own guilt and insecurities that Thor repulses him. The film treats Rhodey’s insults as a joke because he himself treats it as a joke, or at least tries to. but that doesn’t detract from the emotions behind it
If you've seen Mad Men near the end Burt Cooper tells Roger Sterling no one took him seriously because he didn't take himself seriously. This hides a deep pain. Thor deliberately projects an air of goofiness because he can't bear the thought of taking anything seriously ever again. This is what we as the audience see through the camera: how Thor wants his friends to see him versus how he actually sees himself (a failure). And this is why people make fun of him. It's the hints that fall through the cracks of Thor's facade that's what's actually going on.
Strongly disagree with your point about Thor. I think he had one of the best arcs in the movie. Yes there were fat jokes but Thror had the most interesting reaction to 5 years after the Snap. Falling into Depresison & hiding away. The scene with him grabbing & threatening Hulk are really emotional & you can see how badly he’s been hurt & we also got to see his connection with his mother and his Redemption proving to himself again that he’s still worthy. And we got the most original conclusion to the immature royal heir who doesn’t want to be king but is force to be Arc I’ve seen. For the entire MCU we’ve seen Thor go from expecting the throne to not wanting it, to learn how to take responsibility in Ragnorock & become King, before his psyche is absolutely destroyed by Thanos twice (at the beginning & end of Infinity war) So he falls into depression & denial. And with help from his mother he realises that he isn’t a suit to be king. Personality wise he’s immature, reckless & wants to explore not rule We’ve seen his personality & I think it’s extremely refreshing for a Royal heir to realise he’s never wanted the throne, & isn’t right for it (he’s not a leader. Captain America is a leader) and Thor isn’t able to rule over his people, when disaster happened he shut himself from the world & left his people to look after themselves. Valk has to step up & he recognises how she’s much more suited to ruling than him.
It’s not unique though. Turning down the throne, finding someone “better” for it, and wandering off to go adventuring is pretty common. Especially for heroes in ongoing stories. And not being unique is fine. What I hate is that he left. It completely undid his arc in Ragnorak to me. How is he being a guardian for his people by having a flexing contest with Quill in space? I’d have much preferred it if he offered to stay, be Valk’s champion, and built Asgard back up in his own way. I don’t see how abandoning his people to go adventuring is a step up in character development over abandoning his people from guilt and grief. I’m waiting to see what GoG 3 does, and I’m sure I’ll calm down. But right now, I’m so disappointed in him
I think it would be more interesting if Thor didn’t fall into a depression all the time. It happens almost every time he’s in a movie. He goes into a funk someone else has to get him out of it, whether it be Jane, Hulk, his mother, or Rocket. Then he’s back to normal until the next movie inevitably makes him depressed again.
@@Nortarachanges this is different because the throne is his birth right and responsibility, he is not just some hero who gets rewarded with a seat on the throne. It's his to give away if he Sees that its necessary. And second he did abandon his people for those 5 years of being an absent king, who did not guide them through the trauma caused by the tragedy of events they had suffered. And third delegating throne to someone else is much better than just leaving to come back later
Babbiddy the fact that Thor’s guilt and grief is still having a hold on him is a unique spin because every other story where the character makes someone else lead instead seems to just say it’s because they just enjoyed adventuring way more and we’re too immature here it’s because Thor realises he’s not good for his People and the longer he sticks around attempting to be some kind of leader he can’t it’s only going to make things worse
I kind of have to disagree with Red about Thor. He's one of my favorites too, but his story is still pretty consistent with Ragarok. Thor tried to defend his people but got demolished. He saw the Hulk get beaten. He realizes that, as strong as he is, he needs help. Getting the ax was also needed so they could get the Bifrost to get to Earth quickly. Then, he failed to kill Thanos. That failure, like Red said, took a toll on him and how does he cope? He drinks, gets fat, and doesn't care anymore. While yes, the gut was funny, it shows how people cope with failure. Some neglect themselves and go into a spiral of selfdistructive behavior as a way to forget and ignore the problem. Thor blames himself and I think he thinks the others blame him too. He lost his drive, so he just... exists. It isn't until he travels back and gets his old hammer back that he feels like he can do it again. The channel Looper talks about how the Russo brothers talked to Chris about his character. I'd suggest watching it, it's a good video. ruclips.net/video/FjDcztyjTaI/видео.html
Another note Hemsworth himself was the reason they got rid of the eye patch, he didn't like acting with it so they made it CG. Which is a huge shame because damn did I like that look.
Also, how does he realize he is worthy, but through being shown unconditional love and support, rather than being mocked. The fact that he is made fun of holds a mirror up to the viewer and how they are willing to deride hurt people rather than support them, and I'm sure it's intentional.
Silver Shield very true! character regression is just as useful in a character arc as character progression because people don’t grow linearly. they have their ups and downs, and no matter how much they improve, traumatizing events may still cause them to revert back to their old selves. let’s see what happened with thor up until endgame. he lost his mother. lost his father. forced to murder his sister he just met. witnessed his brother get killed before him. the majority of his people-gone. in infinity war, he had nothing left to fight for except for vengeance and what’s left of the world. and he believed he was destined to do so, since he had always done it. he lived to fight, and it was all he had left in him. that’s why when they lost, it affected him the most. he had never failed before, and he was so close to killing thanos. when he did he lost all purpose in life. no loved ones, no identity, no direction. come to think of it, realistically it shouldn’t be a surprise seeing thor let go of himself. he lived for nothing in those five years since we last saw him. that’s why i see endgame as the start of a new chapter in thor’s story. the russos managed to use subvert thor’s character, and now he has a longer way to go in terms of character growth.
Yea, his character was only played for laughs if you laughed. It always felt weird to me when audiences laughed at scenes like thor killing thanos I don't think they made thor into a joke, it felt more like the audience did.
One thing I really liked was how each of the main heroes found different ways dealing with the existential dread of the snap. Natasha buried herself in work Thor turned to depressed hedonism Steve helped people in therapy Clint killed people Bruce self actualized and embraced Hulk Tony started a new life
Wow, wasn't expecting Red to have that take on Thor in Endgame, with all knowledge of tropes in media, I thought she would've seen what form of depression, regret, and guilt he had, regressing with food, being a shut in, and masking it with comedy. Even through all of that, he's still Thor, never losing the weight in God mode, and he knows, like he did in Ragnarok and The Dark World, he doesn't really want to rule, he wants to explore and help others. (Also, Taika was so on board with it, since he helped consult this direction.)
While it is absolutely realistic for depressed people to become overweight, the way it is framed feels like we should laugh. Everyone's mocking comments reinforce that. A point I don't think many people are addressing is how Thor starts to have a panic attack in Asgard and Rocket stops him by being mean, basically. For a lot of people, that does not help in the slightest when a panic attack is coming on, so the fact that it worked for Thor makes it feel like we are supposed to laugh/shake our head at him.
@@j.g.9045 but the thing is, rocket’s method didn’t work. It shocked him out of it for a second but he was pulled back under immediately after and ran away and it took his mother talking to him to actually get him out of it.
Personally, I agree with Red wholeheartedly, but I believe that the issue with Thor started before they even lost in Infinity War, before the depression plot had a chance to start: At the beginning of Infinity War, we see a LOT of dead Asgardians. When last we left Thor, he was in a room filled with Asgardian refugees, and Thor was intent on being there for his people the best he could, only then would he be the king he's wanted to be since childhood, and his personal arcs have guided him to rule wisely and justly. We have faith in him as a character and with good reason after seeing his growth firsthand. He was surrounded by CIVILIANS when Thanos' ship appeared. Infinity War starts. We see some lovely space debris and hear a transmission about how these people are the only surviving refugees from a dead world. Dead Asgardians strewn about. Thor and Heimdall had fought until they could no longer stand. Every reason to believe that the invaders left no survivors elsewhere. A tragedy to be sure. The only confirmed survivors are Thor and (a completely reversed character arc version of) Hulk, and that's just because Heimdall managed to salvage Hulk before the Thanos ended him. Thor's arc in Infinity War seems to make sense in the context of being the last of his kind and yet soldiering up to bring the one responsible down. But then we see in Endgame, that plenty on his ship survived. We retroactively see that Thor neglected the remnant of his people for the entirety of Infinity War, and apparently every moment since. At the end of Endgame the resolution of the depression arc, he even abandons his people fully since he hadn't been there for his people anyway and he might as well make it official. That is not okay.
Thor and Rocket are dealing with it the way that society historically pressure all men to deal with it. "You have to be strong; can't cry; must provide; feelings are for little girls unless you are drunk or alone or with a close (male) friend"
@@rpgincorporated8302 Yes, I feel like it is a disservice to Thor's character throughout the series, honestly imo they should have made him militaristic, turning New Asgard into an authoritarian fortress so that nothing like this could happen again, and have him realize he has become like Thor 1 Odin.
I think the point was to regressed Thor character, he realized he didn’t need a weapon a d that he has power by himself in Ragnarok, and failed, he tried to get a new weapon....and failed, and with this failure half of the universe died. Which is why I loved the scene when he picks up his Hammer again, to show that despite how much he failed, he has still worth.
Also people claiming that Ragnarok showed he didn't need a weapon and thus Infinity War weakens his character had to of missed the first 10 minutes of IW. The entirety of Asgard gets their asses kicked by Thanos and his goons, these aren't regular humans, they are gods and Thanos took them out with little trouble. So what does Thor do? He goes to get a weapon. Imagine it like this. You can kill someone shooting at you with a gun with your hands, but it's much easier to do so if you have a gun to shoot back with. Same goes for Thor. He could still defeat Thanos without the Ax, but with it he stands a much better chance. Not to mention the Bifrost is also a huge boost to his maneuverability and he can go anywhere now.
Also Him fighting with Stormbreaker and Meow-mow at the same time makes him the most powerful hero to throwdown on the big screen without rippling abs.
@@bnadit1949 Not only that but even in Ragnarok his full power without any sense of direction or focus barely did any damage to Hela. Hence why he played the Ragnarok card with Surtur instead of trying to punch his way to victory against his half sister. Like how Dr Strange used the time stone to trap a being outside of time in a time loop and trolled him until they caved in to his bargain. All Stormbreaker does is act as a focus. The power is still coming from him. Which is why there is no 'worthy' clause on Stormbreaker, as we saw when Thanos tried to use it against Thor in Endgame.
At the end, you didn't talk about Black Widow's arc. It's the culmination of her gradually becoming more open and honest with herself and the other Avengers, finding a family in them, evolving from being isolated and closed off to the "mother" of the team, protecting them and holding them together, and definitively wiping out the red in her ledger by giving her life to save not only her family, but everyone in the universe.
Red, i found thors struggles with his depression to be really relatable personally. Im sure alot of people use self depricating humor and escapism to cope even though its not a healthy thing to do. I dont think his strife was played for laughs but i feel his pain and i also feel his attempt at making it seem like its not there at all. It was funny but in a dark way that seems real to me.
Dark Humour, Gallows Humour, is all you have left to cheer you up at the final edges of depression and trauma, that keep you from the step into the abyss of suicide. Red's critique there shows a lack of understanding of depression and PTSD at its core.
I very much Disagree with Red, Not in the mood to write an essay about it but sometimes people process grief through humor, especially when there is no hope of things ever being fixed.
That's the thing though. Thor doesn't process his grief through humour. He deals with it in really bad and self-destructive ways, and the problem isn't that he goes through all these self-destructive tendencies it is that the MOVIE frames these things as FUNNY to the audience rather than as serious problems that he has to overcome.
I still think that the creators did Thor dirty. Like everyone else in the movie had deep arcs that were taken seriously. Thor also had a deep arc but the creator's nor the other heroes didn't take him seriously and kept blowing him off.
@@backbiter8787 they take place in funny scenes but it's always played as sad and depressing. He gets one of the most emotional scenes in the movie and learns he's still worthy in spite of everything
Johan Eriksson I read it much more as a proud individual deflecting from his pain through humor. Yes, there are jokes at his expense but Thor himself is trying to make things a joke most of the film. Then when he is forced to confront reality he cracks and has these anxiety fits but still manages to fight and be worthy in the end. His arc really spoke to me as someone who has tried to cover loss with the same coping mechanisms. Sometimes people don’t handle things well and people around them handle it poorly or mock them for it, It’s not pretty, but it’s real.
I actually think that the Lebowski Thor was great, a solid continuation of Waititis work. As a person who had a low point in life, with depression and being overweight in the past I still had a laugh about those Thor moments, because I could associate with him.
Yeah, Thor being fat wasn’t a problem (it would have been if he had magically lost all his fat at the end, sending a bad message, but that’s neither here nor there). It’s unrealistic to expect a Thor who has been wallowing in self-loathing and depression to have kept in peak physical condition. Seeing him this way instantly signals to us (along with a half-dozen other signs) that Thor is not himself. Unfortunately, the MCU being the MCU, there were too many fat jokes and *that* wasn’t great.
I feel like red missed the point here with thor, I won't go in depth as a lot of people have said this already but this is absolutely still consistent with his arc in ragnarok
Cyan Koopa “absolutely still consistent” is an overstatement. Even if you liked the arc, it was a diversion from Ragnorak that started in IW and continued into Endgame. He learned to accept himself in Ragnorak and essentially had to do the same thing in Endgame again, just with less attention and more fat jokes that were very tone deaf when considering PTSDs and what that would do to someone. It made sense for his character, but not for his arc.
@@Christian-vq3lr ragnorak was about accepting himself? Wtf? That was more about accepting the destruction of the old and not putting so much weight into the stuff he was taught
@@Christian-vq3lr In Ragnarok he lost his hammer and his powers and had to learn that the power was within him all along. This fit in with his raging ego. Initially he fails, so it must be the lack of a hammer. Then he learns he has the power and wins. So his ego is stroked by this. Odin even set him up for future failure by telling him how awesome he is and that it has nothing to do with the hammer. Then in Infinity War he get pummeled and his ego steps up and tells him it is only because Thanos has a super weapon. So if he has a super weapon, then he will win because he has so much power and is destined to always win. So far, consistent with Ragnarok. Then he gets a super weapon and has the power to win, but screws up and loses due to his ego. Then he falls into despair because he finally realizes that all the power in the world wouldn't have helped him make better choices. The deaths of billions is all on him. Now we get character growth as he finally grown beyond his now-shattered ego. So I agree with Cyan Koopa: Absolutely still consistent!
@@demonstrablyfine690 All his quips were intended as weak attempts at hiding his pain. I thought the jokes made it feel even more tragic. I felt they gave it more weight. Also, Hemsworth agreed to continue doing more Marvel films on the condition that they continued to give Thor a more comedic role as they did in Ragnarok. So that also factored in, I am sure.
I disagree with Red, the hole 'Fat Thor' thing is totally something Thor would do, He is a man who has lost everything and his way of dealing with it is to put on this comedic façade. So when he fails to save half the universe he brakes down and copes by drinking and playing Fortnite (That's how you KNOW he's broken) But their I do think Thor should have kept the eyepatch. oh well.
Well, we're forgetting one key thing that happens between Ragnarok & Infinity War, he loses his brother (his last family member), his best friend, AND half of his people, ofc he's gonna run back to wanting to be that cocky badass warrior he was at the beginning of Ragnarok.
Sunshine5 I think Red was more complaining about how the writers treated it. Yes, it makes perfect sense that Thor could fall to such a low point that he’s neglecting his people, drinking too much, and threatening children over Fortnite. However, the movie never takes it seriously. Thor is in the worst emotional position of any of the characters (I say he’s worse off than Hawkeye because despite the fact that Hawkeye lost his family too, Thor feels responsible for it), but all the other characters basically tell him to suck it up, quit being such a fat baby, and throw the hammer already. As someone who absolutely loved Thor: Ragnarok and the character development therein, I can totally see where Red is coming from with how frustrating it is to see all of that undone.
The problem is not so much that thor fell from grace and his arc was about gaining his self-confidence back, because that pep talk with his mother was the most wholesome thing out of that whole movie. No, the problem is that his fall from grace is summarized as "drunk, fat and sad" and that that's built as a joke. It's 2019, I think laughing at people because they're obese is pretty outdated at this point.
I also love how they give us fan-service moments (like Cap wielding Mjolnir) without removing the loss from it. The hammer is sent back (along with the stones), both of which being destroyed, and now unable to use again. Thor still lost everything. Even his new eye is still not his natural one. It could still be a reminder of what he's lost, even if it functions the same as his old one.
That point about Thanos being the perfect foil to the main three Avengers was SO GOOD. Blew my mind. Although I have to say, don't think "ingenuity" is the right trait there, but I can't put my finger on what is. But still, really interesting insight
No, i think that was the right word choice. What compensated for Tony's ego for much of the MCU was that he had more efficient and often out of the box solution that allowed him to help other people without compromising himself or his ego. His answer to moral dilemmas was witty jokes. He was only stripped of jokes when he was down.
Cleverness? Wit? Pragmatism? Creativity? Resourcefulness? Pure genius? I mean its pretty much summed up that when Cap realizes he needs someone to figure out quantum realms time travel thing only one he thinks can do it is him.
I feel like the issue is that there's no redeeming element there. Cap has his morality, Thor has his responsibility, and Tony is probably somewhere in between? I guess?
I wasn't 100% happy with that word choice either... Thanos has some very ambitious and out-of-the-box ideas himself so I would definitely say he has ingenuity. The problem is that ingenuity and intellect without humanity, compassion and empathy can lead to marvelously bad ideas... like wiping out half of humanity. Yeah, Tony can be an egotistical ass sometimes, but he has plenty of those humane traits going for him, especially later in his life.
Thanos defeating Hulk in Infinity War has nothing to do with that. Thanos is a Titan. Then can knock Hulk or Thor out with enough power and energy. Thanos failing in Endgame has nothing to do with him being cocky. He’s just complete outmatched and doesn’t have the gauntlet. Let’s not try and evaluate everything sometimes it’s just simple lol
@@thedipper6594 plus the avengers have years of knowledge about what exactly happened in the past. In what planned perfectly with knowledge from both past and future. The smart outperforms the powerful.
The joke “don’t walk in there’s always traps” also is kinda sad because had he not said that they would have left before thanos was able to tap into her
Hm I don't agree with the point on Thor at all but I need to go seen the movie again to figure out why it worked for me so well. Edit: got it. It worked for me because I never saw Thor as a leader but rather just a good warrior who would do anything and everything to protect his people. Just because you are a great warrior doesn't make you a great leader. His whole life he was told to be a leader and he finally throws that off in end game after 7 movies of that internal battle of what he is expected to be and who he actually is. They are also not playing the PTSD and fat thing only for a laugh. They are showing that even a god can fall apart and be human if enough is taken from them. But Thor rises up from it and overcomes it in the movie with a push from his mom. And then he makes sure his people have a good ruler before he goes off and simply gets to be who he wants to be. After all he's been through I think he's earned that.
@@yeahkeen2905 except that is how MCU and Avengers in particular play almost every scene... so, um no? You look at how Hulk treats Thor, the sudden swerve at Thanos name, etc? Not for a laugh.
Could not disagree more, i couldn't take Thor seriously the entire movie because the movie wasn't taking him seriously. Even in the final moments when he calls upon both weapons and is fully ready to kill thanos fr, all i saw was a shell of one of the mightiest Avengers.
12:00 fat thor works because hes finally given up, and no longer wants to live out his grand "destiny" he just wants to live his own life doing what he wants to do..... it basically made him human
He is a Norse Diety though. The Vikings and that entire religion have this saying, "Fate is inexorable". They literally believe that destiny isn't something you can overcome or go against, that all the twists and turns life takes you down are a part of your destiny. Both the cultural and philosophical attachment someone like Thor would have towards his destiny shouldn't be dismissed or understated.
I just want to compliment the amazing use of clips from other movies and the trailers in place of unavailable clips from endgame. A brilliant use of editing. Good job!
I actually loved Thor's arc a lot, just not the fact that it was mostly played for jokes. It felt the most real to me, considering just how much he lost. At some point, even a demigod can't continue fighting and being strong. I just wish the other main characters had taken that more seriously, or they could've been more angry about it, because they think he should have dealt with the trauma the way they did. (Either way, I can't believe you managed to sneak a small GoT spoiler in there lol)
Ena To me, it seemed kind of similar to Bojack Horseman, a character whose depression and struggles serve as a darker undertone of a comedic facade. Much like when Bojack took the step to go to rehab, I felt that was similar in tone to Thor learning he can still wield Mjolnir. Both have taken steps to realize their self-worth. Nothing against Red though. I freaking love her videos. Lol
Love this breakdown and the cameos from OSP. But there's something I have to say. Almost everyone who hates Thor's arc in Endgame states "I love Thor" or "He's my favorite character" and some derivative about the writers either disliking Thor or disrespecting him as a character. Well I like Thor too. He's MY favorite character. And I think his arc in Endgame is brilliant. For me, the humor doesn't detract from the tragedy of what he's going through. It doesn't feel disrespectful because I can find humor in anything. Take away the personal tragedy and everything can be hilarious. My motto is "Laugh to keep from crying". And even though a lot of what Thor is going through IS played for laughs, it never distracted me from his journey. I was moved to tears when he broke down in front of his mom. Even more so when he realized he was still worthy. That no matter how far from grace one may fall, it doesn't mean that the universe has written you off. It doesn't make you any less of who you were. And seeing him in battle again, just as much a badass as ever... damn, it was awesome. Thor lost EVERYTHING. He hit rock bottom. He lost the will to even try anymore. And just like in Infinity War, he fell back on using humor to deflect from what he was truly feeling. And yet, he crawled out of that pit and found himself waiting at the top. I'm so proud of him and can't wait to see where his journey will take him next
Its not like thor had to live with "oh i was this close to saving the universe but i went for revenge and now half of all life is gone because of me" guilt for five years. Nope, no character development or pathos there.
I felt like *despite* his arc having such a serious mental and emotional impact on him every single scene he was in was played for laughs. She isn't ignoring the arc she's calling it out for how poorly it was handled. Thor did absolutely nothing for the people of Asgard, whom he spent the previous movie trying to save.
The reversal was understandable but I can see how it would still be frustrating. Thor is *finally* set to be a good king, and suddenly his kingdom is mostly wiped out and he's sent into a serious downward spiral. They basically dangled King Thor in front of us at the end of Ragnarok but then snatched him away before we ever got to actually see him. Thor's character arc in Endgame wasn't bad or unrealistic, but it was a complete 180 from what he'd been set up for up to that point and fat Thor just isn't something anyone wanted to see.
@@willieoelkers5568 the way i alway read the previous movies is that thor never actually wanted to be king, it was something he was born to be, something thrust upon him but he wanted instead to be a warrior, to explore the realms, to be a hero. Sure he accepted his role as King at the end of ragnorok but i was that more as it was the right thing to do at the time since his people needed a strong leader at that moment after their home was destroyed and a great amount of people were killed by Hela. Once thor loses everything, half his people, his brother, half the universe, his confidence, being king no longer matter in his depressed state. I saw him asserting that Valkiry was the best option to lead new asgurd to be a very mature decision. He can't lead his people in his current state.
Red was totally off mark here. as someone who suffers depression, anxiety and ptsd i related to his character arc. when thor learned he was still worthy... thats the one thing i wish i could feel.
Really have to disagree with Red. Thor in Infinity War was wayy too OP. If he was at his prime during Endgame, 2014 Thanos would be dead in seconds. 'Fat Thor' was their way of nerfing him and honestly playing video games and drinking beer is a very relatable way of dealing with loss and grief. Sure its played for laughs but its still relatable and feels like a genuine character moment.
Yes, I mean, how can you say they forget Ragnarok when they tried to use Taika's weird whimsycal realistic feels? I don't think they executed as well as Taika does his thing, but it was in no way forgetful of the way Taika make characters feel things.
Thanos treated Thor like a ragdoll in Infinity war at the beginning. He is nowhere near powerful enough to defeat Thanos on his own. Thor in IW was not OP. He was powerful, but not as strong as Thanos. The only times he got close to defeating Thanos was when he surprise attacked him with a weapon forged specifically to kill Thanos. The second time he beheaded him was when he had a lot of help from all the original Avengers plus Captain marvel and rocket and nebula.
@@politereminder6284 Exactly. In IW Thor basically jumped Thanos while he was still learning to wield the full gauntlet with a powerful weapon of his own. Also, in IW Thanos specifically seemed intent to not kill any of the Avengers when he arrived on earth (besides Vision who he likely only saw as a machine). In Endgame, Thanos is much more bloodthirsty and he's using his training and raw strength. Thor wasnt nerfed, Thanos is just out for blood this time.
Thor is great in Endgame! His character arc works perfectly as a continuation of the Ragnarok story. I don’t know why everyone is hating on him. His entire character is emotional and very realistic. He is trying to use humor to mask the fact that he’s truly suffering. That’s who Thor has become, and it works beautifully.
Thor's "jokes"actually make his situation darker than just making him brood. He's holding back tears behind every joke he makes, and he talks shit to act tough when just under the melted ice cream surface he views himself as nothing more than a pathetic failure. He's purposedly regressed because he has never known what it means to truly lose. His absolute belief in his mastery of his own fate, as demonstrated in Infinity War, is the only thing that keeps him fighting despite all the loss and grief. And when Thanos shatters that belief, Thor was inevitably going to crumble.
I believe that all the people that despise Thor in Endgame have never suffered his condition. From personal experience, his portrayal could not be closer to reality.
Dennis Martin yeah, it’s reality that is played for laughs, not to talk about the issue and show character change. Ps. I don’t think anyone despised Thor, we just wanted better than 50% jokes, 50% character.
Red didn't say she despised Thor - he's still her favourite character, I'm not sure where you got that? She was talking about how is arc wasn't taken as seriously as the others.
@@ishika5619 it's not so much the fact that his character is played more lighthearted (that is just consequential with the character's more comedic tone since Ragnarok, so I don't see either why she thinks that Endgame destroyed Ragnarok's Thor...). It's the fact that Red thinks that Thor's portrayal of grief is an offending one to those that suffer it, thus making her dislike him in Endgame.
Christian NoName it’s not 50/50 jokes and character. The jokes are character. From both firsthand experience and numerous secondhand experiences, the jokes too made endgame Thor the most realistic portrayal of depression I have ever seen in media. Many people with depression cope with self deprecating humor and hide behind humour. Many I know personally are into video games- they are great distractions and you can sink days at a time into them if you need. Also the combination of his “happy” outward persona, which is clearly cracked and nowhere near as strong as it was in infinity war and ragnarock (in those two the only crack i can remember is the conversation with rocket), causes the people around him to be uncomfortable and unsure on how to handle him. People usually go for overbearing pity or for humour- they have no idea how to handle someone in his state, and this is realistic. Endgame thor was incredible
Also, After showing this depressed Thor and how doubtful of himself he is. The scene where he got his hammer back is REALLY significative, not only for Thor, but also for all the people having depression out there. Saying, You might be having a bad time, but you are still worthy.
Two things I would argue are about Thor and Thanos. As I can see I'm not the only one who found Thor's arc to be realistic and I've already seen lots of other comments from people who feel the same as me. However, in terms of Thanos I think you have to remember that the Thanos in Infinity War and Endgame are not really the same person. The Thanos in Endgame is from the past, he hasn't yet gone on his journey of retrieving the stones and fighting the universe for it like he was in Infinity War. Instead he is a younger Thanos who sees that he has in fact one at the end of the day and now truly believes that he is inevitable. He thinks that regardless of what he does, the outcome will be his victory, because that was the future he saw. This is dramatically changes Thanos' reasons to fight the Avengers from Infinity War to Endgame. In Infinity War he just wants to make the universe the way he believes it should be and then Avengers are an obstacle he must face. But in Endgame the past Thanos sees the Avengers as weak people he was able to defeat in the future of a different timeline. So I don't think he was being inconsistent, we're just seeing two different Thanos' from two different times. The Endgame Thanos is from 5 years before the Infinity War Thanos.
Another thing about Black Widow and Hawkeye's character arcs was the significance of Black Widow being the one to bring Hawkeye back from the hole he had fallen into of killing and hopelessness, just like he did for her when he was sent to kill her but "he made a different call". They both felt like irredeemable monsters, but the other gave them a second chance. This made the soul stone scene a perfect conclusion to her arc. Having finally proved to herself she was not a monster by running a broken Earth for five years, she repays Hawkeye by giving him a second chance. It also concludes Hawkeye's character arc in this movie because he is able to begin on that path of redemption she gave him.
I disagree, for starters they really dragged out the scene when they fought against each other so that one of them could die. Also Nat dying isn't a satisfying end to her arch.
@@elisabethwilliams2406 here's the thing I'm one of those people who thought that the romance between Banner and Natasha was both cute and poinen to them both thinking of themselves as monsters. And they are able to bond because of their pain. In Infinity War they shared a very brief moment that only hinted that they would hash it out but it would have to wait. Only they never had the scene when they confronted each other about Banner leaving or if Nat still felt for him. For me her death was both sudden and dragged out, if she had a proper resolution with Banner I would have enjoyed it better. However the movie simply ignores that they had a romance, like they were pandering to SJW types who didn't like the idea that Nat couldn't cope with not being able to have kids.
@pyropulse dragged out because Clint and Nat kept going back and forth between who would die. The slowmo even began as Clint bade his charge toward the cliff but then slowmo stops because Nat catches him, then slowmo begins again as she falls, I'm not saying I didn't think her death was impactful, just dragged out and not wholly earned.
@@samdurfee6093 That's a fair point of view. I suppose I was personally more invested in Black Widow's friendship with Hawkeye than her relationship with Banner, which is why this scene worked so well for me. I can see how someone invested in the Nat x Bruce relationship would think otherwise though.
On the topic of Thor (also my favorite) I would argue that he is played for laughs because that’s how this Thor is dealing with the trauma. In the scene we first see Thor he is in such denial about anything bothering him up until his failure is mentioned. And even then he still chooses to focus on beer. He has surrounded himself with enablers of bad coping mechanisms and as a king and a god he gets to do whatever he wants. Humor is his wall to keep himself as an indestructible mountain he is so used to being. The movie ends with him recognizing his mental trauma and giving up the responsibility of ruling. He knows that he was never a king but a warrior and now he gets to go find his own way
Love this! And while I do agree there was too much of Thor played for laughs, I think they also explore depression and PTSD very well, and give Thor...maybe not the exact same payoff as others, but his own kind of payoff. He's STILL worthy, still badass, and still fat- and I loved that. He self-actualizes, realizes that his grief does not have to destroy him, and that the weight of the world can be shared and not just belongs on his shoulders alone.
@@nikolatsepenishev8615 Ah yes. The films in which his paranoia about upcoming threats and not being able to save everyone is his greatest flaw. A "suit of armour around the world" not "suit of armour around me and only me".
@@ginge641 I hate to say this, but his first attempt to make a suit of armor around the world lifted a city in the sky and tried to lay waste to the whole planet. His second attempt to create that suit of armor around the world paralized his friend, and later got killed, because a stone inside his forehead was needed to wipe out half the universe. And by the way, even after creating Ultron, Tony insisted on making another superbot, without knowing if it will turn bad or not, that's after getting told by all his friends that it is a bad idea. And all that because he wanted to prove himself.
The analysis of Thor is just incorrect. He had a couple deeply emotional moments. One occurred when he was reintroduced at his new house with Hulk, another when he was speaking with his mother before leaving. They also showed that he's still worthy despite his size and depression, which is very important.
A couple deeply-emotional moments, and a ton of moments where he's senselessly made the butt of joke after joke. The arc itself was fine, just not how the universe itself was pretty much making fun of him. His trauma should've been somber, not reduced to the equivalent of fart jokes.
Just as a devil's advocate to what Red said about Thor, I don't think it was supposed to be overtly funny. Also they did something similar to Spiderman in the Spiderverse movie. Plus he's doesn't stay that way throughout the film, only really the first half. Plus this wasn't really his swan song like it was for Tony and Steve, so we can still see badass Thor in the next film. Other thoughts let me know
John Martin even if it wasn’t meant to be overtly funny, I think it read that way. Whenever he was on screen, my theater was laughing, excluding the scene with his mom (cause who would laugh at that)
@@Christian-vq3lr People were laughing in my theatre at scenes with Thor in them, but not whenever he was on screen. Like his introduction scene, for instance. Hilarious! everybody laughing their heads off... until Prof. Hulk mentioned Thanos, and suddenly everybody in the theatre remembered why Thor was getting drunk and bing-bing-wahoo'ing his problems away in a hideaway for the last 5 years, and the whole place went quiet.
A few things: 1. I believe Tony was actually already researching time travel for a while before, as like a possibility. His reasons would have been his guilt over Peter Parker, but after failing over and over again, he would have given up and him saying it was impossible was just a lashing out with his own failure. But with the clue provided by Ant Man he would have finally solved the problem. Now a good chunk of this was speculation, but what I got out of the movie was that Tony was hiding the fact he was looking into time travel, not that he suddenly and randomly managed to crack it in an afternoon. 2. Others have already said this, but I did not get any kind of "oh laugh at this guy" vibes from Thor, at least not in any manner that would be detrimental to the character. Much like the others, he is essentially at his lowest point: Cap feels lost, Tony is too hesitant to even take action, and Thor has let himself go completely having lost everything that made him who he was, his family, most of his people, his home and now his pride, and turned into the other side of a king: From the mighty and wise warrior to the flatulent, almost uncaring king. I did feel like there was a lot of levity to his character, maybe a little more than it should, but the way I see it, that is just his way of being broken, which a lot better than everyone dealing with the tension in the same way. (The Hulk was the one exception, who managed to make something positive out of being broken) 3. I want to bring up that I don't think Natasha and Clint being together was a coincidence in-universe (this isn't taking from the video, just since I'm talking about it anyway). Let's not forget there were people in that room that knew what would be the price, specifically Nebula who had little care for most of the people there and definitely all the hatred in the world for Thanos. I believe she may have had a hand in setting it up so Natasha and Clint ended up going together to get the soul stone. 4.A lot of people seem to misunderstand Thano's final change of plans. This was a Thanos who genuinely believed in his idea to save the universe, but hasn't had the fulfillment of actually doing so. He is still hungry to take action, but now gets to see the consequences are less than perfect. He sees the grief, and the avenger's actions to unmake what he made, in his eyes he bestowed a gift upon the world that the world can't appreciate because of the trauma of what was lost- and in a way, he is right. What he wants to do is remake the universe, which doesn't mean wiping out all life, but remaking all life, making it so that life, that universe is twisted in such a way as to make it appreciate the world they have and Thanos himself, without knowing of what was lost to get their "paradise" if you will- as Thanos says in the movie, after captain comments on the blood lost "They'll never know.". Thanos has in his own twisted way, learned from the mistake that resulted from his victory. 5.I believe Thano's acts of near sadism can be explained by two things, and that his more calm and collected self is the real Thanos (as opposed to your theory of the angry something). First is shows of power, in many of those scenes, Thanos is trying to demonstrate that he has the upper hand to his opponents. Thanos wants to crush the spirits of those who would oppose him more than their bodies, as his quest isn't (in his head) to harm people, but to save them. But he is also the kind who knows that he needs to make sure people won't want to get in his way. If needs to be a little cruel to achieve that, then so be it. The other kind is more visible in the third act of Endgame, where he has developed a natural animosity against the people who REGULARLY COME TO BEAT HIM UP AND SCREW WITH HIM. The Avengers far from the biggest threat, also came to "harass" him after he's already won and is just farming, they made a mockery of him in that first scene. They keep fighting him, they travelled through time and space to not only try to stop him, but once he had already won to rip his victory prize straight out of his hands. I think anyone would seem a little sadistic if they had a chance to, in their heads, justifiably harm people that were that much of a nuisance.
Infinity War had one incredible moment for me when the credits rolled. Stakes? How about a little kid just screaming "But I don't WANT THEM TO BE DEEEEEAAD!!!!" from the back of the theater...lmao, THAT'S STAKES.
Now I can't help but want to see the universe where the avengers lost *again*, and Thanos created a new universe. There's no way it wouldn't have its own set of flaws that he couldn't predict, so it would be very interesting.
I think Red is wrong with her assessment of Thor in Endgame. When Thor was seen laughing and making jokes while abandoning his people to live in a basement, that happens when you are depressed. There are people who laugh it off, who put on weight and abandon their responsibilities just so they feel better. The amount of joy I saw in Thor's face when he saw that he was worthy shone a massive spotlight out of the bleak reality he was living. Rhodes dismissing him by saying he had Cheese Wiz in his blood is a nod that there are those who do not recognize that someone is going through a tough time. Everyone else was stopping him because they knew at some level, he was suicidal. It wasn't until round two with Thanos and their inevitable victory did he start feeling better and recognize what he wants. Thor's journey was that of grief and how different people process it.
Now that the MCU is over (or at least a large portion of it) I want them to release a special pack containing all the movies leading up to and including Endgame.
I think you got the Tony- Thanos contrast wrong. Thanos is portrayed as quite intelligent- perhaps not the mechanic Tony is, but a powerful tactician and strategist. Their contrast is between the proud man who recognizes his faults when they are shoved in his face and the proud man who will not do so.
The path Thanos took to accomplish his goal transformed his personality, culminating with the lines "what did it cost?" - "Everything". When they went back on time, they brought the old sadistic bloodthirsty Thanos This is one thing I took from Thanos' transformation and have never seen someone say.
On the note of Thanos being villainous, at a convention I attempted to ask comic book author Ron Marz (who shared an office with Jim Starlin, the creator of Thanos) during the period in which the original Infinity storyline was written (starting with Thanos Quest) about the kind of villain Thanos is; asking if he was just evil for evil's sake or if he was motivated by outside forces (because he doesn't just switch between those two in the films, he does so, quite often, in the comics as well), but Ron interrupted me and said 'Thanos isn't a villain, he's just the protagonist of his own story'. He didn't actually answer my question but still. Addendum: 'Mr. I am inevitable' is also said, by Ron Marz, to be self-destructive. He doesn't just want to win, he wants a challenge, often self-sabotaging his plans (in some way or another) to actually give the heroes a fighting chance, and then he is oh-so-shocked when they win.
Those who think thicc Thor is just there to be the butt of all the jokes, watch Captain Midnight's video on Thor in Endgame. I completely bought into Endgame Thor and looovveeed him! As far as I could see, it was right in line with the Thor we know and love!
One scene with Thor was not played for laughs and made me physically uncomfortable. When Smulk said "Thanos" in front of Thor the first time. That was proof of Thor's intense truama and how desparate he was to ignore, dismiss, escape and/or cover up his feelings, be it with beer, video games or humor. I bought into Thor. Getting fat was natural. Why train if fighting begets failure? Ignore your calling or it'll lead to more pain.
rewatching this video, i realized that i think part of the reason natasha's death was so unsatisfying for me was that she didnt really have a character arc to wrap up. She had the beginnings of one in catws with her search for who she is when she's not hiding, but she never resolved that in any meaningful way. it felt less like she died at the end of her arc and mroe like clipping a loose plot thread the writers kept dropping throughout the movies
I relate to Endgame Thor on a personal level. I didn’t have a traumatic experience like him, but clinical depression did the same thing to me. I coped by eating, laying around, and distracting myself with games. I dropped out of school so I could stay in my room all day, only going out to get food or go to the bathroom. I still deal with that to this day. That depression made me 50 pounds overweight and made me go from being able to keep up or even outpace my peers in sports/academics to becoming the slow one in every sense of the term. Thor isn’t played for laughs. He’s played for realism.
Unlike their previous collaboration, I did not see the whole title before watching the video. So, I was genuinely surprised when Red and Blue showed up.
I wholeheartedly agree with Red that it’s a shame that Thor’s obvious suffering and PTSD symptoms are played off for laughs is a bad think. Unfortunately, as several in the comments have already pointed out, it’s not unrealistic. People not recognising or sympathising with symptoms of poor mental heath, rather to joke about it is a problem that happens all the time. I did love one small moment though, when Thor was explaining the Ether to everybody and he begins rambling before starting to suffer a panic attack. When we scan the room, we see most of the avengers watching Thor with a mixture of pity, embarrassment and disgust, but then we see Tony quietly and calmly tap him on the shoulder and say “I know buddy”, then lead him off. I felt it perfectly showed that, out of everyone, Tony understood. He knew the symptoms of PTSD, as a fellow sufferer, and he truly cared and empathised with Thor. He didn’t belittle him or make a witty comment, as would normally be expected of him, choosing instead to be kind and patient, and I found that quite touching.
I don't entirely agree with Red's point on Thor. Hulk did recognized he was depressed, showed that he cared and genuinely tried to offer a helping hand. Perhaps the rest weren't so much dismissive of Thor's break down, but decided to allow him to feel his grief and process it in his own way. Also noteworthy, he didn't need to fully heal mentally and recover his physique to be a hero. It's ok not to be in shape and feel broken, you are still a worth person. PS: I cried when he met his mother, who he knew he could not save, and hadn't been able to say goodbye before, she showed so much wisdom.
I think the reason Thanos was even more evil in endgame is because in infinity war he had to kill gamora to get all the stones but in Endgame the stones came to him without him having to sacrifice Gamora to get it so he really couldn't appreciate the sacrifice of a soul like he had to infinity war. his attitude completely changed after he killed Gamora in infinity war
When I walked out of the theater, I knew one thing for certain. People kept laughing at scenes with Thor because they’re fat-shaming assholes. And I’m willing to bet when I can watch it alone without a huge crowd, all of those scenes with him won’t play as comedic. They’ll play as one of the most realistic and painful depictions of depression I’ve seen in a blockbuster that I’m pretty sure I saw when watching that movie. Because I’ve had it and that was it to a T. That scene where he wanted to put on the gauntlet; oh my fuck.
Red is me seven years ago when I was convinced (still am) that Whedon didnt like Cap and sidelined him completely in favor of making Iron Man flawless. The only reason he got as much screentime as he did was because they couldnt go and name Iron Man as the official leader of the Avengers but he went as close to that as possible. But you make a good point Red, Infinity War definitely undid everything that made Thor great in Ragnarok but I think it was done decently so we had to squint to see it.
@@ThatGreyGentleman yeah, someone already pointed out my mistake, but still, points for calling Nebula "Neb", cause she's ruthless and so serious that calling her "Neb" is actually funny for me
I believe red completely missed thee mark on Thor. It was my favorite part of the movie was seeing him go through his struggles as someone who self destructive habits which causes the ones around you to doubt you. He overcame it, its inspiring.
Gonna straight up disagree with Red here. To me, Thor's arc was the most touching, beautiful- and clever- of the film. We are introduced to him as a character to be laughed at, and we are encouraged to find his depression and his weight gain funny. Jokes and quips are made by characters at his expense- and in what I'm inclined to call the 'ludonarrative' of the film, we are encouraged to do to the same. This then comes to a peak when he has a panic attack to meet his mother, which seems to be a terrible idea. However, she accepts him, and loves him unconditionally. She respects him, and does not laugh at him. And that's why I say ludonarrative- because in that scene you see his naked trauma, and you realise how terrible it was to dismiss him. He needed care and affection, not to be beaten down. And how does that scene end? He summons the hammer. No matter what, his weight, his mental health, none of those matter to still be worthy, both of the hammer of Thor, and of love. Additionally, when prepares for battle at the end, he doesn't lose his hair, his weight, the signifiers of his trauma (and items in themselves)- instead, he just dons fitting armour and braids his hair. The trauma isn't to be dismissed, but accepted. With anything like this, there is the argument that if some people miss the subtext, then it should have been made clearer- but I think that reading Thor only as a laughable fat guy in Endgame, for better- or for ill- only scratches the surface of him.
No red, your wrong about Thor in endgame. He was pretending to not care with laughter and jokes, all of which he either make himself or he laughs at himself. But it's all a cover, if you looked his face, behind the smiles are tears. His laughs are hallow and empty.
You know, that really makes a lot of sense. About how, "The fate of the world!" doesn't really do anything to creat tension in audience members. The thing is though, that I've always been really super interested in the idea of a story that does the fate of the world well. I had a dream once about the universe ending, and it gave me a feeling I hadn't had before. Idk, I just like thinking about it
Jesus Red, I usually like your analyses, but you missed the mark on Thor so hard it physically hurts. I wish you had talked about literally anything else, because this was no good. Otherwise great video and analyses. The importance of stakes can't be overstated, but the way stakes manifest is very different depending on the narrative. Consequences always existed in the MCU, but these two Avengers movies really pushed them to the limit.
![On Writing: Mentor Characters [ Iroh l Obi-Wan l Cersei l Lupin ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/djnao3Ey3zc/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Writing: Mentor Characters [ Iroh l Obi-Wan l Cersei l Lupin ]](/img/tr.png)
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It was great to be here - So much fun working on this video with you!
Do be sure to let us know if random animations of yours deteriorate into black and white line-art, it's a side-effect of inter-cartoon-dimensional travel that we haven't quite solved yet.
-Blue & Red
I actually discovered Hello Future Me through you two over at OSP, love it when you guys collab on vids (and this one was no exception) I think all of you are awesome!
Oh, I shall. Can't have my universe falling apart again. You guys are awesome. Thanks for dropping by!
~ Tim
Overly Sarcastic Productions you guys are the best
Oi nice collab
I was expecting you two to come through and say "Well, he said all life, so when the snap happened, it turns out being dead inside from College Exam Burnout, we didn't count!"
Several others have talked about Thor, but I think the redeeming moment of his arc is recovering Mjolnir. Even after years of depression and grief and self-doubt and giving up, he realizes that he's still worthy of Mjolnir. Depression and grief don't make him unworthy. And I like that he doesn't immediately get skinny or anything, but he does have new-found confidence and resolve.
Plus when Steve picks it up, he seems sort of happy for him with that "I knew it"
Your final point is one I love. Thor's reaction in Age of Ultron is of worry, because he bases his being on his worthiness for the hammer. If someone else can lift it, what's the point of him?
But after his journey since Ragnarok, he has learnt to be worthy without the hammer. He crafted Stormbreaker, he got beaten down, but has risen back. When he wields both weapons he is more Thor than he has ever been, and his acceptance of himself means he doesn't carry that anxiety anymore. He's able to just be happy that Steve is also worthy.
So many don't seem to 'get' Thor in Endgame, but I love his story SO much.
Finally someone gets it!
I appreciated this part as well, and saw what they were going for, but for some reason it still didn't stick for me when watching.
Like the scene where he takes back Mjolnir seemed almost glossed over, that it could've been 10x times as impactful if the scene had really paused for a good few seconds on Thor's reaction to being worthy, an earnestness in "I really wasn't sure that it would work."
Jared Carter on my first viewing of the film I didn’t even realize its importance because to me (the outside viewer) there was never any doubt that Mjolnor would reapond, so I agree. That he didn’t lose his worthiness is a fact we as the audience take for granted because we are not privy to his thoughts and point of view in IW and the prologue of Endgame, so it doesn’t have the emotional payoff that it should. Only on secind viewing did I catch on to the implications of Mjolnir coming back to post-snap Thor
Glettification I understand and love that scene as well however to me honestly it seems like he’s running from his responsibilities in the end passing them off. While some might say that is the higher part of honor he doesn’t say that it is because he believes he cannot lead or that she is a greater leader than him rather he says it’s not who I am. However the whole point of growth is understanding that sometimes we must put aside ourselves so that we can be what is required of us. He abandoned everything (which I can agree has been earned) however there is no payoff. No matter how many people say they like the new character named Thor it is a regression of character growth. He wields the hammer but he is not the Thor that has grow over the infinity saga not anymore. He is more akin to the Thor we knew from Thor 1 than from Ragnarok even at the conclusion of the movie.
In The Avengers:
Tony: "I read everything about your accident. Such a high dose of radiation... should have killed you."
Bruce: "You are saying that the Hulk saved my life? That's nice. A nice thought. But saved for what?"
Tony: "Guess you will have to find out."
In Endgame:
Bruce: "It's like I was made for this."
Steve in avengers:
"You're not the one to make the sacrifice play; to lay down your life on a wire and let the other guy crawl over you."
Tony threw himself in the wormhole with a nuke to stop the chitauri.
Tony dies to snap away Thanos.
"You're a lab experiment, Rogers. Everything special about you came out of a bottle."
Steve leads the avengers, using a keen tactical mind and keeping a cool head in the face of an alien invasion.
Steve, a mortal man, lifts Mjolnir, a hammer fit for gods.
Stuff said in avengers had a payoff later in the movie, and later in endgame too. Good writing in my humble opinion.
@@alecchristiaen4856don’t forget the bit about Natasha owing Clint a debt and her saving him in Avengers and sacrificing herself to give him a happy life in Endgame.
As a person who is overweight and struggles with depression and PTSD, Thor's struggle with his emotions rang truest to me and the teams struggle to deal with him and their varied reactions to him felt real too. Not everyone, especially people dealing with their own trauma, knows how to deal with someone so clearly broken. Especially when most of the team has been shown to deal with their emotions through dark humour. For people who have never struggled with that fear and complete lack of self motivation, I can see how it might seem out of place or just played for laughs, but I've read a lot people's comments who feel the same as me. I hope with further viewing people might begin to look deeper at what is really happening with Thor and the teams reactions to him.
This, honestly. "No matter how deep the depression and no matter how big a failure you think you are, you're still worthy" isn't even subtext.
I truly and deeply cried when Thor found himself worthy again, even tho some light music kicked in for one of the funniest scene in the whole movie, my eyes still poured with emotion at that moment
And I think it fits his character development in Ragnarok. He's an insecure crown prince to a violent imperial culture who makes peace with himself by embracing his inner warmth and good humour. After everything that's happened, it makes sense for him to stick with the friends who still appreciate those parts of him - and it makes sense for Frigga to cap off their meeting with a gentle joke. It's an affirmation that yes, this is still who he is.
His arc was a joke and it wasn in no way realistic. His burden of not being able to win against Thanos was completely written as a joke, which is a trend with Thor for many movies now where they have something good but they turn it into a laugh scene for no reason other than making him the jester of the movie.
How is it realistic that someone with clear issues has nobody caring about him (Despite his team being like a family), gains an insane amount of weight which in reality might affect his health, and then drinks in his home playing Fortnite (To further his scenes as a joke, they add some commercial)? In real life, the person in question should be in therapy, his closest family would be caring about him, visiting him often, and trying to get him close to healthy lifestyles in both physical and physicological ways.
The team never had any issues dealing with him, and i have no idea where you got that from. Rocket and Thor went for him and just told him that they are going to save the world. That's literally the only scene that becomes somewhat sad, the rest is the team awkwardness handlening a drunk person (which is very common).
>I can see how it might seem out of place or just played for laughs, but I've read a lot people's comments who feel the same as me.
That's probably only you and those handful of people seeing stuff where there is none. A lot of people like to insert their subjective views and turn something simple into a whole universe for no reason. You literally said you are confident of it because some people wrote the same.
If you want a "struggle with depression", Steve and Natasha scenes where those, not the butt of the joke that we know as Thor.
Lastly, may i ask what kind of PTSD you have?
This, exactly. It’s like the pattern I have seen is that people who think Endgame “ruined” are people who have never truly felt any meaninful failure, depression or despair (not that I would ever want them to); but those who have find Thor’s to be the brilliant job it is
Edit: @Jairo Melchor, you asking “what kind of PTSD” the op has shows that you don’t know what you’re talking about
Blue's interpretation of Thanos is pretty much what the directors described him as in the commentary. It's not about saving the universe. It's about proving he's right.
He is right, the directors can't say that because of obvious drawbacks.
Thanos did the right thing.
@@Eruptor1000 If you're being serious, then you missed the whole point.
@@FieryMeltman elaborate the point.
@@Eruptor1000 Thanos may have believed in his plan, but ultimately he wanted to save his own ego, not half the universe. His plan ultimately fails; not because the Avengers stopped it, but because it never would have worked in the first place. In Avengers Endgame he even admits he was naïve to believe that the world would accept what he did.
@@FieryMeltman The actual Thanos in Infinity war was more balanced in his thoughts but the old Thanos just wanted destruction.
Infinity Thanos was at peace with 50% and sacrificed all for his cause but the old Thanos hadn't done this yet but saw and opportunity to do so! He hadn't built up that wisdom yet over the last few years.
Red, Thor is my favourite too. But how he handled his depression is exactly true to life. He's putting on a strong face while his life falls apart in the background and he can't be bothered to even take care of himself anymore.
And He knows he slacks of, but can't do anything against it. He sees himself turn into something pathetic ans that solidifies his Depression. It's so real!
lger2010 he may have been true to life, but he was played for laughs and the movie was kinda tone deaf to what many people struggle with, with him becoming great again with one inspirational speech after the audience laughed at all the jokes at his expense.
Ps. I wouldn’t argue real *always* translates to good characters and writing in movies, especially a marvel movie
@@Christian-vq3lr I'd argue that everyone was struggling. You had goody two shoes Steve swearing and also running a therapy group, black window looking like dead inside, Hawkeye killing everyone, Rocket losing his family after you saw how much that worried him in GotGv2. They're all frayed and exhausted and broken. They're going to make cutting jokes to feel something especially since it's directed at a god who until now they viewed as untouchable.
Is it good of them to do that? No of course not. Would it probaby happen? Yeah.
The fact that it was true to life was the biggest problem; Thor is a god from another dimension, he's supposed to embody the more fantastical aspects of the MCU. Having him turn into a depressed alcoholic who plays Fortnite, to me at least, just didn't feel true to his character. There have been story arcs in the comics where Thor became unable to lift Mjolnir because he believed himself to be unworthy, and they were really interesting, but they were never played for laughs. Thor's lost almost everything he's held dear at this point, they took what should have been one of the most tragic characters in the film and turned him into the comic relief, it just felt wrong for Thor to be characterized that way.
@@Christian-vq3lr You are missing one important thing. It wasn't just the "one inspirational speech" that fixed him. It was the opportunity to be part of the solution and fix his mistake. That had the most healing effect on him. The motivational speech just helped him commit to the plan. Executing the plan is what helped him out of his depression, as well as talking with his mother whom he never got to say goodbye to.
Thor moments not played for laughs:
1.) Thor telling Hulk not to say Thanos's name.
2.) Thor's final swig of beer before leaving with Hulk/Rocket.
3.) Thor catching the hammer almost crying from happiness.
This was one of the best arc's of the movie for me.
4) Just before Hulk's snap, Thor begging to be the one to do it, to make up for his failure.
Don't forget that at #2, he's on the verge of tears. Just the thought of having to confront something related to Thanos almost breaks him
Honestly, if War Machine hadn't made that quip about "cheese whiz" when thor was begging to do the Un-snap, and instead been a little more supportive to his buddy on the verge of tears, I don't think anyone would have complained. That was the only moment that a "fat thor" joke felt gratuitous.
Aegix Drakan That can be read a different way though too. I see Rhodey as being genuinely disgusted by Thor and what he has become, but not out of spite for Thor. Rhodey, as a military man, has always tried to be at the peak of strength, both physically and emotionally. Physically, you can see this in his own strength and fitness as well as how heavily armed and armored War Machine/iron Patriot is compared to Iron Man. Emotionally, he bounces back almost immediately after his injury in Civil War, and after the Snap, he continues working with Natasha, Rocket, Captian Marvel, and Nebula to try to rebuild. He’s one of the few characters who, while still showing sadness over what happened, isn’t entirely eaten up by remorse. He sees himself as strong, he fights through his own feelings and struggles and comes out on top.
But Thor doesn’t. He’s eaten up by guilt and enters into an intense depression. He becomes weak, physically and emotionally. For Rhodey, this is horrifying, not because pf who Thor is, but because of who Rhodey knows he can be. Is his attitude towards Thor insensitive and demeaning? Yes, completely. But it’s realistic. Rhodey has worked so hard to push down his own guilt and insecurities that Thor repulses him. The film treats Rhodey’s insults as a joke because he himself treats it as a joke, or at least tries to. but that doesn’t detract from the emotions behind it
If you've seen Mad Men near the end Burt Cooper tells Roger Sterling no one took him seriously because he didn't take himself seriously. This hides a deep pain. Thor deliberately projects an air of goofiness because he can't bear the thought of taking anything seriously ever again. This is what we as the audience see through the camera: how Thor wants his friends to see him versus how he actually sees himself (a failure). And this is why people make fun of him. It's the hints that fall through the cracks of Thor's facade that's what's actually going on.
Strongly disagree with your point about Thor. I think he had one of the best arcs in the movie. Yes there were fat jokes but Thror had the most interesting reaction to 5 years after the Snap. Falling into Depresison & hiding away. The scene with him grabbing & threatening Hulk are really emotional & you can see how badly he’s been hurt & we also got to see his connection with his mother and his Redemption proving to himself again that he’s still worthy.
And we got the most original conclusion to the immature royal heir who doesn’t want to be king but is force to be Arc I’ve seen. For the entire MCU we’ve seen Thor go from expecting the throne to not wanting it, to learn how to take responsibility in Ragnorock & become King, before his psyche is absolutely destroyed by Thanos twice (at the beginning & end of Infinity war) So he falls into depression & denial.
And with help from his mother he realises that he isn’t a suit to be king. Personality wise he’s immature, reckless & wants to explore not rule We’ve seen his personality & I think it’s extremely refreshing for a Royal heir to realise he’s never wanted the throne, & isn’t right for it (he’s not a leader. Captain America is a leader) and Thor isn’t able to rule over his people, when disaster happened he shut himself from the world & left his people to look after themselves. Valk has to step up & he recognises how she’s much more suited to ruling than him.
Thank you , this comment just sums up why I like Thor so much.
It’s not unique though. Turning down the throne, finding someone “better” for it, and wandering off to go adventuring is pretty common. Especially for heroes in ongoing stories. And not being unique is fine.
What I hate is that he left. It completely undid his arc in Ragnorak to me. How is he being a guardian for his people by having a flexing contest with Quill in space? I’d have much preferred it if he offered to stay, be Valk’s champion, and built Asgard back up in his own way. I don’t see how abandoning his people to go adventuring is a step up in character development over abandoning his people from guilt and grief.
I’m waiting to see what GoG 3 does, and I’m sure I’ll calm down. But right now, I’m so disappointed in him
I think it would be more interesting if Thor didn’t fall into a depression all the time. It happens almost every time he’s in a movie. He goes into a funk someone else has to get him out of it, whether it be Jane, Hulk, his mother, or Rocket. Then he’s back to normal until the next movie inevitably makes him depressed again.
@@Nortarachanges this is different because the throne is his birth right and responsibility, he is not just some hero who gets rewarded with a seat on the throne. It's his to give away if he Sees that its necessary.
And second he did abandon his people for those 5 years of being an absent king, who did not guide them through the trauma caused by the tragedy of events they had suffered.
And third delegating throne to someone else is much better than just leaving to come back later
Babbiddy the fact that Thor’s guilt and grief is still having a hold on him is a unique spin because every other story where the character makes someone else lead instead seems to just say it’s because they just enjoyed adventuring way more and we’re too immature here it’s because Thor realises he’s not good for his People and the longer he sticks around attempting to be some kind of leader he can’t it’s only going to make things worse
Half the comments: Defending Thor
Other half: Psychopathic Barney
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be
I kind of have to disagree with Red about Thor. He's one of my favorites too, but his story is still pretty consistent with Ragarok. Thor tried to defend his people but got demolished. He saw the Hulk get beaten. He realizes that, as strong as he is, he needs help. Getting the ax was also needed so they could get the Bifrost to get to Earth quickly. Then, he failed to kill Thanos. That failure, like Red said, took a toll on him and how does he cope? He drinks, gets fat, and doesn't care anymore. While yes, the gut was funny, it shows how people cope with failure. Some neglect themselves and go into a spiral of selfdistructive behavior as a way to forget and ignore the problem. Thor blames himself and I think he thinks the others blame him too. He lost his drive, so he just... exists. It isn't until he travels back and gets his old hammer back that he feels like he can do it again. The channel Looper talks about how the Russo brothers talked to Chris about his character. I'd suggest watching it, it's a good video.
ruclips.net/video/FjDcztyjTaI/видео.html
Another note Hemsworth himself was the reason they got rid of the eye patch, he didn't like acting with it so they made it CG. Which is a huge shame because damn did I like that look.
@@vidman102 and he was on board with the beer gut
Also, how does he realize he is worthy, but through being shown unconditional love and support, rather than being mocked. The fact that he is made fun of holds a mirror up to the viewer and how they are willing to deride hurt people rather than support them, and I'm sure it's intentional.
Silver Shield very true! character regression is just as useful in a character arc as character progression because people don’t grow linearly. they have their ups and downs, and no matter how much they improve, traumatizing events may still cause them to revert back to their old selves.
let’s see what happened with thor up until endgame. he lost his mother. lost his father. forced to murder his sister he just met. witnessed his brother get killed before him. the majority of his people-gone.
in infinity war, he had nothing left to fight for except for vengeance and what’s left of the world. and he believed he was destined to do so, since he had always done it. he lived to fight, and it was all he had left in him.
that’s why when they lost, it affected him the most. he had never failed before, and he was so close to killing thanos. when he did he lost all purpose in life. no loved ones, no identity, no direction.
come to think of it, realistically it shouldn’t be a surprise seeing thor let go of himself. he lived for nothing in those five years since we last saw him. that’s why i see endgame as the start of a new chapter in thor’s story. the russos managed to use subvert thor’s character, and now he has a longer way to go in terms of character growth.
Yea, his character was only played for laughs if you laughed. It always felt weird to me when audiences laughed at scenes like thor killing thanos I don't think they made thor into a joke, it felt more like the audience did.
One thing I really liked was how each of the main heroes found different ways dealing with the existential dread of the snap.
Natasha buried herself in work
Thor turned to depressed hedonism
Steve helped people in therapy
Clint killed people
Bruce self actualized and embraced Hulk
Tony started a new life
Love how casually “Clint killed people” is snuck into that list. 😂
I was okay with 'Rocket gets the stone from Padmé', but I broke at 'Stop Psychopath Barney"! Great video! Keep up the good work.
Wow, wasn't expecting Red to have that take on Thor in Endgame, with all knowledge of tropes in media, I thought she would've seen what form of depression, regret, and guilt he had, regressing with food, being a shut in, and masking it with comedy. Even through all of that, he's still Thor, never losing the weight in God mode, and he knows, like he did in Ragnarok and The Dark World, he doesn't really want to rule, he wants to explore and help others.
(Also, Taika was so on board with it, since he helped consult this direction.)
While it is absolutely realistic for depressed people to become overweight, the way it is framed feels like we should laugh. Everyone's mocking comments reinforce that. A point I don't think many people are addressing is how Thor starts to have a panic attack in Asgard and Rocket stops him by being mean, basically. For a lot of people, that does not help in the slightest when a panic attack is coming on, so the fact that it worked for Thor makes it feel like we are supposed to laugh/shake our head at him.
@@j.g.9045 but the thing is, rocket’s method didn’t work. It shocked him out of it for a second but he was pulled back under immediately after and ran away and it took his mother talking to him to actually get him out of it.
Personally, I agree with Red wholeheartedly, but I believe that the issue with Thor started before they even lost in Infinity War, before the depression plot had a chance to start:
At the beginning of Infinity War, we see a LOT of dead Asgardians.
When last we left Thor, he was in a room filled with Asgardian refugees, and Thor was intent on being there for his people the best he could, only then would he be the king he's wanted to be since childhood, and his personal arcs have guided him to rule wisely and justly. We have faith in him as a character and with good reason after seeing his growth firsthand.
He was surrounded by CIVILIANS when Thanos' ship appeared.
Infinity War starts. We see some lovely space debris and hear a transmission about how these people are the only surviving refugees from a dead world. Dead Asgardians strewn about. Thor and Heimdall had fought until they could no longer stand. Every reason to believe that the invaders left no survivors elsewhere. A tragedy to be sure. The only confirmed survivors are Thor and (a completely reversed character arc version of) Hulk, and that's just because Heimdall managed to salvage Hulk before the Thanos ended him.
Thor's arc in Infinity War seems to make sense in the context of being the last of his kind and yet soldiering up to bring the one responsible down.
But then we see in Endgame, that plenty on his ship survived. We retroactively see that Thor neglected the remnant of his people for the entirety of Infinity War, and apparently every moment since. At the end of Endgame the resolution of the depression arc, he even abandons his people fully since he hadn't been there for his people anyway and he might as well make it official.
That is not okay.
Thor and Rocket are dealing with it the way that society historically pressure all men to deal with it. "You have to be strong; can't cry; must provide; feelings are for little girls unless you are drunk or alone or with a close (male) friend"
@@rpgincorporated8302 Yes, I feel like it is a disservice to Thor's character throughout the series, honestly imo they should have made him militaristic, turning New Asgard into an authoritarian fortress so that nothing like this could happen again, and have him realize he has become like Thor 1 Odin.
I think the point was to regressed Thor character, he realized he didn’t need a weapon a d that he has power by himself in Ragnarok, and failed, he tried to get a new weapon....and failed, and with this failure half of the universe died. Which is why I loved the scene when he picks up his Hammer again, to show that despite how much he failed, he has still worth.
Also people claiming that Ragnarok showed he didn't need a weapon and thus Infinity War weakens his character had to of missed the first 10 minutes of IW. The entirety of Asgard gets their asses kicked by Thanos and his goons, these aren't regular humans, they are gods and Thanos took them out with little trouble. So what does Thor do? He goes to get a weapon.
Imagine it like this. You can kill someone shooting at you with a gun with your hands, but it's much easier to do so if you have a gun to shoot back with. Same goes for Thor. He could still defeat Thanos without the Ax, but with it he stands a much better chance. Not to mention the Bifrost is also a huge boost to his maneuverability and he can go anywhere now.
Also Him fighting with Stormbreaker and Meow-mow at the same time makes him the most powerful hero to throwdown on the big screen without rippling abs.
@@bnadit1949 Not only that but even in Ragnarok his full power without any sense of direction or focus barely did any damage to Hela. Hence why he played the Ragnarok card with Surtur instead of trying to punch his way to victory against his half sister. Like how Dr Strange used the time stone to trap a being outside of time in a time loop and trolled him until they caved in to his bargain. All Stormbreaker does is act as a focus. The power is still coming from him. Which is why there is no 'worthy' clause on Stormbreaker, as we saw when Thanos tried to use it against Thor in Endgame.
At the end, you didn't talk about Black Widow's arc. It's the culmination of her gradually becoming more open and honest with herself and the other Avengers, finding a family in them, evolving from being isolated and closed off to the "mother" of the team, protecting them and holding them together, and definitively wiping out the red in her ledger by giving her life to save not only her family, but everyone in the universe.
"He just walks in and takes it from Padme"...hilarious :D
Lol, I thought I heard that wrong at first!
That was gold
Red, i found thors struggles with his depression to be really relatable personally. Im sure alot of people use self depricating humor and escapism to cope even though its not a healthy thing to do. I dont think his strife was played for laughs but i feel his pain and i also feel his attempt at making it seem like its not there at all. It was funny but in a dark way that seems real to me.
Dark Humour, Gallows Humour, is all you have left to cheer you up at the final edges of depression and trauma, that keep you from the step into the abyss of suicide.
Red's critique there shows a lack of understanding of depression and PTSD at its core.
The problem with a lot of people is that they will never have empathy for the those suffering because they haven't experienced it themselves
I very much Disagree with Red, Not in the mood to write an essay about it but sometimes people process grief through humor, especially when there is no hope of things ever being fixed.
That's the thing though. Thor doesn't process his grief through humour. He deals with it in really bad and self-destructive ways, and the problem isn't that he goes through all these self-destructive tendencies it is that the MOVIE frames these things as FUNNY to the audience rather than as serious problems that he has to overcome.
I still think that the creators did Thor dirty. Like everyone else in the movie had deep arcs that were taken seriously. Thor also had a deep arc but the creator's nor the other heroes didn't take him seriously and kept blowing him off.
@@backbiter8787 they take place in funny scenes but it's always played as sad and depressing. He gets one of the most emotional scenes in the movie and learns he's still worthy in spite of everything
Johan Eriksson I read it much more as a proud individual deflecting from his pain through humor. Yes, there are jokes at his expense but Thor himself is trying to make things a joke most of the film. Then when he is forced to confront reality he cracks and has these anxiety fits but still manages to fight and be worthy in the end. His arc really spoke to me as someone who has tried to cover loss with the same coping mechanisms. Sometimes people don’t handle things well and people around them handle it poorly or mock them for it, It’s not pretty, but it’s real.
Yeah she lost the point; as someone that claims love Thor she ignored his arc since the previous movies completely.
I've been similar to Thor in reaction to my depression and anxiety and had my loved ones act similar to me. It seemed realistic to me.
I actually think that the Lebowski Thor was great, a solid continuation of Waititis work. As a person who had a low point in life, with depression and being overweight in the past I still had a laugh about those Thor moments, because I could associate with him.
Yeah, Thor being fat wasn’t a problem (it would have been if he had magically lost all his fat at the end, sending a bad message, but that’s neither here nor there). It’s unrealistic to expect a Thor who has been wallowing in self-loathing and depression to have kept in peak physical condition. Seeing him this way instantly signals to us (along with a half-dozen other signs) that Thor is not himself.
Unfortunately, the MCU being the MCU, there were too many fat jokes and *that* wasn’t great.
I feel like red missed the point here with thor, I won't go in depth as a lot of people have said this already but this is absolutely still consistent with his arc in ragnarok
Cyan Koopa “absolutely still consistent” is an overstatement. Even if you liked the arc, it was a diversion from Ragnorak that started in IW and continued into Endgame. He learned to accept himself in Ragnorak and essentially had to do the same thing in Endgame again, just with less attention and more fat jokes that were very tone deaf when considering PTSDs and what that would do to someone. It made sense for his character, but not for his arc.
Of course he needs to re-accept himself. He failed so completely in IW. Who wouldn’t completely let themselves go under that guilt?
@@Christian-vq3lr ragnorak was about accepting himself? Wtf? That was more about accepting the destruction of the old and not putting so much weight into the stuff he was taught
@@Christian-vq3lr In Ragnarok he lost his hammer and his powers and had to learn that the power was within him all along. This fit in with his raging ego. Initially he fails, so it must be the lack of a hammer. Then he learns he has the power and wins. So his ego is stroked by this. Odin even set him up for future failure by telling him how awesome he is and that it has nothing to do with the hammer. Then in Infinity War he get pummeled and his ego steps up and tells him it is only because Thanos has a super weapon. So if he has a super weapon, then he will win because he has so much power and is destined to always win. So far, consistent with Ragnarok. Then he gets a super weapon and has the power to win, but screws up and loses due to his ego. Then he falls into despair because he finally realizes that all the power in the world wouldn't have helped him make better choices. The deaths of billions is all on him. Now we get character growth as he finally grown beyond his now-shattered ego.
So I agree with Cyan Koopa: Absolutely still consistent!
@@demonstrablyfine690 All his quips were intended as weak attempts at hiding his pain. I thought the jokes made it feel even more tragic. I felt they gave it more weight. Also, Hemsworth agreed to continue doing more Marvel films on the condition that they continued to give Thor a more comedic role as they did in Ragnarok. So that also factored in, I am sure.
Always great to see a collab between two of my favourite RUclips channels! :D
I disagree with Red, the hole 'Fat Thor' thing is totally something Thor would do, He is a man who has lost everything and his way of dealing with it is to put on this comedic façade. So when he fails to save half the universe he brakes down and copes by drinking and playing Fortnite (That's how you KNOW he's broken)
But their I do think Thor should have kept the eyepatch. oh well.
But the whole point that they threw all of his previous development in thrash stays.
@@magikarp2063 Maybe it's not in the trash, maybe it's in space somewhere, their for the Asgardians of the Galaxy to find.
Well, we're forgetting one key thing that happens between Ragnarok & Infinity War, he loses his brother (his last family member), his best friend, AND half of his people, ofc he's gonna run back to wanting to be that cocky badass warrior he was at the beginning of Ragnarok.
Sunshine5 I think Red was more complaining about how the writers treated it. Yes, it makes perfect sense that Thor could fall to such a low point that he’s neglecting his people, drinking too much, and threatening children over Fortnite. However, the movie never takes it seriously. Thor is in the worst emotional position of any of the characters (I say he’s worse off than Hawkeye because despite the fact that Hawkeye lost his family too, Thor feels responsible for it), but all the other characters basically tell him to suck it up, quit being such a fat baby, and throw the hammer already. As someone who absolutely loved Thor: Ragnarok and the character development therein, I can totally see where Red is coming from with how frustrating it is to see all of that undone.
The problem is not so much that thor fell from grace and his arc was about gaining his self-confidence back, because that pep talk with his mother was the most wholesome thing out of that whole movie.
No, the problem is that his fall from grace is summarized as "drunk, fat and sad" and that that's built as a joke. It's 2019, I think laughing at people because they're obese is pretty outdated at this point.
I also love how they give us fan-service moments (like Cap wielding Mjolnir) without removing the loss from it. The hammer is sent back (along with the stones), both of which being destroyed, and now unable to use again. Thor still lost everything. Even his new eye is still not his natural one. It could still be a reminder of what he's lost, even if it functions the same as his old one.
That point about Thanos being the perfect foil to the main three Avengers was SO GOOD. Blew my mind. Although I have to say, don't think "ingenuity" is the right trait there, but I can't put my finger on what is. But still, really interesting insight
No, i think that was the right word choice. What compensated for Tony's ego for much of the MCU was that he had more efficient and often out of the box solution that allowed him to help other people without compromising himself or his ego. His answer to moral dilemmas was witty jokes. He was only stripped of jokes when he was down.
Cleverness? Wit? Pragmatism? Creativity? Resourcefulness? Pure genius? I mean its pretty much summed up that when Cap realizes he needs someone to figure out quantum realms time travel thing only one he thinks can do it is him.
I feel like the issue is that there's no redeeming element there. Cap has his morality, Thor has his responsibility, and Tony is probably somewhere in between? I guess?
I wasn't 100% happy with that word choice either... Thanos has some very ambitious and out-of-the-box ideas himself so I would definitely say he has ingenuity. The problem is that ingenuity and intellect without humanity, compassion and empathy can lead to marvelously bad ideas... like wiping out half of humanity. Yeah, Tony can be an egotistical ass sometimes, but he has plenty of those humane traits going for him, especially later in his life.
@@UmbraKrameri Exactly! Thinking about Iron Man 1, I'm kinda thinking "empathy"? Might not be broad enough though
I did love the theme running through the movie about how experience and self-knowledge outweighs raw power.
Exactly why Thanos whooped Hulk in infinity war
@@kpudzekakewir1360 ... and why earlier timeline Thanos failed in Endgame. He got cocky.
Thanos defeating Hulk in Infinity War has nothing to do with that. Thanos is a Titan. Then can knock Hulk or Thor out with enough power and energy. Thanos failing in Endgame has nothing to do with him being cocky. He’s just complete outmatched and doesn’t have the gauntlet. Let’s not try and evaluate everything sometimes it’s just simple lol
@@SezMisery He even says something about how the arrogant fall right before victory/success.
@@thedipper6594 plus the avengers have years of knowledge about what exactly happened in the past. In what planned perfectly with knowledge from both past and future. The smart outperforms the powerful.
The joke “don’t walk in there’s always traps” also is kinda sad because had he not said that they would have left before thanos was able to tap into her
Hm I don't agree with the point on Thor at all but I need to go seen the movie again to figure out why it worked for me so well.
Edit: got it. It worked for me because I never saw Thor as a leader but rather just a good warrior who would do anything and everything to protect his people. Just because you are a great warrior doesn't make you a great leader. His whole life he was told to be a leader and he finally throws that off in end game after 7 movies of that internal battle of what he is expected to be and who he actually is. They are also not playing the PTSD and fat thing only for a laugh. They are showing that even a god can fall apart and be human if enough is taken from them. But Thor rises up from it and overcomes it in the movie with a push from his mom. And then he makes sure his people have a good ruler before he goes off and simply gets to be who he wants to be. After all he's been through I think he's earned that.
Master Yoda literally every scene Thor is in is a joke except for Asgard and the fight. They were playing it for a laugh.
He was supposed to have become a leader in ragnarok...
@@yeahkeen2905 except that is how MCU and Avengers in particular play almost every scene... so, um no? You look at how Hulk treats Thor, the sudden swerve at Thanos name, etc? Not for a laugh.
Liked his arc, but do wish it had been treated more seriously with only some jokes.
Could not disagree more, i couldn't take Thor seriously the entire movie because the movie wasn't taking him seriously. Even in the final moments when he calls upon both weapons and is fully ready to kill thanos fr, all i saw was a shell of one of the mightiest Avengers.
12:00 fat thor works because hes finally given up, and no longer wants to live out his grand "destiny" he just wants to live his own life doing what he wants to do..... it basically made him human
Exactly! Making him human makes him interesting.
If he's a demigod, what fun is that?
This is why a LOTTA people hate Superman
@@josh043p6 and captain Marvel
He is a Norse Diety though. The Vikings and that entire religion have this saying, "Fate is inexorable". They literally believe that destiny isn't something you can overcome or go against, that all the twists and turns life takes you down are a part of your destiny. Both the cultural and philosophical attachment someone like Thor would have towards his destiny shouldn't be dismissed or understated.
"Psychopath Barney" OML. I haven't laughed that much in a WHILE.
16:42
I hate you, you hate me, together we will make anarchy.
Thanos really is Barney gone horribly wrong, isn't he. He literally becomes the enemy of the entire universe.
It was funny but calling his plan stupid doesn't make it actually stupid 😂
@@javelinmaster2 Anarchy is based on the exact opposite of that it's love for all life instead of being speciesist.
I just want to compliment the amazing use of clips from other movies and the trailers in place of unavailable clips from endgame. A brilliant use of editing. Good job!
I actually loved Thor's arc a lot, just not the fact that it was mostly played for jokes. It felt the most real to me, considering just how much he lost. At some point, even a demigod can't continue fighting and being strong. I just wish the other main characters had taken that more seriously, or they could've been more angry about it, because they think he should have dealt with the trauma the way they did.
(Either way, I can't believe you managed to sneak a small GoT spoiler in there lol)
Ena To me, it seemed kind of similar to Bojack Horseman, a character whose depression and struggles serve as a darker undertone of a comedic facade. Much like when Bojack took the step to go to rehab, I felt that was similar in tone to Thor learning he can still wield Mjolnir. Both have taken steps to realize their self-worth. Nothing against Red though. I freaking love her videos. Lol
Love this breakdown and the cameos from OSP. But there's something I have to say. Almost everyone who hates Thor's arc in Endgame states "I love Thor" or "He's my favorite character" and some derivative about the writers either disliking Thor or disrespecting him as a character. Well I like Thor too. He's MY favorite character. And I think his arc in Endgame is brilliant. For me, the humor doesn't detract from the tragedy of what he's going through. It doesn't feel disrespectful because I can find humor in anything. Take away the personal tragedy and everything can be hilarious. My motto is "Laugh to keep from crying". And even though a lot of what Thor is going through IS played for laughs, it never distracted me from his journey. I was moved to tears when he broke down in front of his mom. Even more so when he realized he was still worthy. That no matter how far from grace one may fall, it doesn't mean that the universe has written you off. It doesn't make you any less of who you were. And seeing him in battle again, just as much a badass as ever... damn, it was awesome. Thor lost EVERYTHING. He hit rock bottom. He lost the will to even try anymore. And just like in Infinity War, he fell back on using humor to deflect from what he was truly feeling. And yet, he crawled out of that pit and found himself waiting at the top. I'm so proud of him and can't wait to see where his journey will take him next
Thanos was just cooking breakfast. Can't believe the Avengers attacked him like that.
Lol
Thanoss didn’t consent
Amber Beam His compliance isn't a factor
That wasnt very cash money
@@NyxSakura Is that a TFS reference!?
My two favorite writing/storytelling RUclipsrs make a video about one of my favorite movies. Hell yes.
Its not like thor had to live with "oh i was this close to saving the universe but i went for revenge and now half of all life is gone because of me" guilt for five years. Nope, no character development or pathos there.
Yeah I felt like she willfully misunderstood his Arc
And almost all of it was played for laughs.
I felt like *despite* his arc having such a serious mental and emotional impact on him every single scene he was in was played for laughs. She isn't ignoring the arc she's calling it out for how poorly it was handled. Thor did absolutely nothing for the people of Asgard, whom he spent the previous movie trying to save.
The reversal was understandable but I can see how it would still be frustrating. Thor is *finally* set to be a good king, and suddenly his kingdom is mostly wiped out and he's sent into a serious downward spiral. They basically dangled King Thor in front of us at the end of Ragnarok but then snatched him away before we ever got to actually see him. Thor's character arc in Endgame wasn't bad or unrealistic, but it was a complete 180 from what he'd been set up for up to that point and fat Thor just isn't something anyone wanted to see.
@@willieoelkers5568 the way i alway read the previous movies is that thor never actually wanted to be king, it was something he was born to be, something thrust upon him but he wanted instead to be a warrior, to explore the realms, to be a hero. Sure he accepted his role as King at the end of ragnorok but i was that more as it was the right thing to do at the time since his people needed a strong leader at that moment after their home was destroyed and a great amount of people were killed by Hela. Once thor loses everything, half his people, his brother, half the universe, his confidence, being king no longer matter in his depressed state. I saw him asserting that Valkiry was the best option to lead new asgurd to be a very mature decision. He can't lead his people in his current state.
Red was totally off mark here. as someone who suffers depression, anxiety and ptsd i related to his character arc.
when thor learned he was still worthy... thats the one thing i wish i could feel.
Yeah bro keep slamming those fake geek girls!
Really have to disagree with Red. Thor in Infinity War was wayy too OP. If he was at his prime during Endgame, 2014 Thanos would be dead in seconds. 'Fat Thor' was their way of nerfing him and honestly playing video games and drinking beer is a very relatable way of dealing with loss and grief. Sure its played for laughs but its still relatable and feels like a genuine character moment.
Yes, I mean, how can you say they forget Ragnarok when they tried to use Taika's weird whimsycal realistic feels? I don't think they executed as well as Taika does his thing, but it was in no way forgetful of the way Taika make characters feel things.
For what it's worth, the writers handled depression better than 13 reasons why
I agree. Seeing Thor go through all that and still be worthy was really encouraging.
Thanos treated Thor like a ragdoll in Infinity war at the beginning. He is nowhere near powerful enough to defeat Thanos on his own. Thor in IW was not OP. He was powerful, but not as strong as Thanos. The only times he got close to defeating Thanos was when he surprise attacked him with a weapon forged specifically to kill Thanos. The second time he beheaded him was when he had a lot of help from all the original Avengers plus Captain marvel and rocket and nebula.
@@politereminder6284 Exactly. In IW Thor basically jumped Thanos while he was still learning to wield the full gauntlet with a powerful weapon of his own. Also, in IW Thanos specifically seemed intent to not kill any of the Avengers when he arrived on earth (besides Vision who he likely only saw as a machine). In Endgame, Thanos is much more bloodthirsty and he's using his training and raw strength. Thor wasnt nerfed, Thanos is just out for blood this time.
Thor is great in Endgame! His character arc works perfectly as a continuation of the Ragnarok story. I don’t know why everyone is hating on him. His entire character is emotional and very realistic. He is trying to use humor to mask the fact that he’s truly suffering. That’s who Thor has become, and it works beautifully.
"Psychopath Barney"
When you won but the heroes time travel: *cha cha real smooth*
Thor's "jokes"actually make his situation darker than just making him brood. He's holding back tears behind every joke he makes, and he talks shit to act tough when just under the melted ice cream surface he views himself as nothing more than a pathetic failure. He's purposedly regressed because he has never known what it means to truly lose. His absolute belief in his mastery of his own fate, as demonstrated in Infinity War, is the only thing that keeps him fighting despite all the loss and grief. And when Thanos shatters that belief, Thor was inevitably going to crumble.
I believe that all the people that despise Thor in Endgame have never suffered his condition. From personal experience, his portrayal could not be closer to reality.
Dennis Martin yeah, it’s reality that is played for laughs, not to talk about the issue and show character change.
Ps. I don’t think anyone despised Thor, we just wanted better than 50% jokes, 50% character.
Red didn't say she despised Thor - he's still her favourite character, I'm not sure where you got that? She was talking about how is arc wasn't taken as seriously as the others.
@@ishika5619 it's not so much the fact that his character is played more lighthearted (that is just consequential with the character's more comedic tone since Ragnarok, so I don't see either why she thinks that Endgame destroyed Ragnarok's Thor...). It's the fact that Red thinks that Thor's portrayal of grief is an offending one to those that suffer it, thus making her dislike him in Endgame.
Christian NoName it’s not 50/50 jokes and character. The jokes are character. From both firsthand experience and numerous secondhand experiences, the jokes too made endgame Thor the most realistic portrayal of depression I have ever seen in media. Many people with depression cope with self deprecating humor and hide behind humour. Many I know personally are into video games- they are great distractions and you can sink days at a time into them if you need. Also the combination of his “happy” outward persona, which is clearly cracked and nowhere near as strong as it was in infinity war and ragnarock (in those two the only crack i can remember is the conversation with rocket), causes the people around him to be uncomfortable and unsure on how to handle him. People usually go for overbearing pity or for humour- they have no idea how to handle someone in his state, and this is realistic.
Endgame thor was incredible
Also, After showing this depressed Thor and how doubtful of himself he is. The scene where he got his hammer back is REALLY significative, not only for Thor, but also for all the people having depression out there. Saying, You might be having a bad time, but you are still worthy.
Two things I would argue are about Thor and Thanos. As I can see I'm not the only one who found Thor's arc to be realistic and I've already seen lots of other comments from people who feel the same as me. However, in terms of Thanos I think you have to remember that the Thanos in Infinity War and Endgame are not really the same person. The Thanos in Endgame is from the past, he hasn't yet gone on his journey of retrieving the stones and fighting the universe for it like he was in Infinity War. Instead he is a younger Thanos who sees that he has in fact one at the end of the day and now truly believes that he is inevitable.
He thinks that regardless of what he does, the outcome will be his victory, because that was the future he saw.
This is dramatically changes Thanos' reasons to fight the Avengers from Infinity War to Endgame. In Infinity War he just wants to make the universe the way he believes it should be and then Avengers are an obstacle he must face. But in Endgame the past Thanos sees the Avengers as weak people he was able to defeat in the future of a different timeline.
So I don't think he was being inconsistent, we're just seeing two different Thanos' from two different times. The Endgame Thanos is from 5 years before the Infinity War Thanos.
Another thing about Black Widow and Hawkeye's character arcs was the significance of Black Widow being the one to bring Hawkeye back from the hole he had fallen into of killing and hopelessness, just like he did for her when he was sent to kill her but "he made a different call". They both felt like irredeemable monsters, but the other gave them a second chance. This made the soul stone scene a perfect conclusion to her arc. Having finally proved to herself she was not a monster by running a broken Earth for five years, she repays Hawkeye by giving him a second chance. It also concludes Hawkeye's character arc in this movie because he is able to begin on that path of redemption she gave him.
I disagree, for starters they really dragged out the scene when they fought against each other so that one of them could die. Also Nat dying isn't a satisfying end to her arch.
@@samdurfee6093 I'm curious, what wasn't satisfying about it for you?
@@elisabethwilliams2406 here's the thing I'm one of those people who thought that the romance between Banner and Natasha was both cute and poinen to them both thinking of themselves as monsters. And they are able to bond because of their pain.
In Infinity War they shared a very brief moment that only hinted that they would hash it out but it would have to wait. Only they never had the scene when they confronted each other about Banner leaving or if Nat still felt for him.
For me her death was both sudden and dragged out, if she had a proper resolution with Banner I would have enjoyed it better.
However the movie simply ignores that they had a romance, like they were pandering to SJW types who didn't like the idea that Nat couldn't cope with not being able to have kids.
@pyropulse dragged out because Clint and Nat kept going back and forth between who would die.
The slowmo even began as Clint bade his charge toward the cliff but then slowmo stops because Nat catches him, then slowmo begins again as she falls,
I'm not saying I didn't think her death was impactful, just dragged out and not wholly earned.
@@samdurfee6093 That's a fair point of view. I suppose I was personally more invested in Black Widow's friendship with Hawkeye than her relationship with Banner, which is why this scene worked so well for me. I can see how someone invested in the Nat x Bruce relationship would think otherwise though.
On the topic of Thor (also my favorite) I would argue that he is played for laughs because that’s how this Thor is dealing with the trauma.
In the scene we first see Thor he is in such denial about anything bothering him up until his failure is mentioned. And even then he still chooses to focus on beer. He has surrounded himself with enablers of bad coping mechanisms and as a king and a god he gets to do whatever he wants.
Humor is his wall to keep himself as an indestructible mountain he is so used to being. The movie ends with him recognizing his mental trauma and giving up the responsibility of ruling. He knows that he was never a king but a warrior and now he gets to go find his own way
(Spoiler) When tony snapped, mishka actually kept tony alive long enough to have a conversation with pepper
Derpypanda YT All hail Mishka.
Love this! And while I do agree there was too much of Thor played for laughs, I think they also explore depression and PTSD very well, and give Thor...maybe not the exact same payoff as others, but his own kind of payoff. He's STILL worthy, still badass, and still fat- and I loved that. He self-actualizes, realizes that his grief does not have to destroy him, and that the weight of the world can be shared and not just belongs on his shoulders alone.
Tony was always selfless. He was willing to sacrifice himself from Avengers onward.
No, he was not always selfless, sorry.
@@nikolatsepenishev8615 Oh my mistake. He was selfish in the first ten minutes of Iron Man.
@@ginge641 Lets not forget Iron Man 3. And Age of Ultron.
@@nikolatsepenishev8615 Ah yes. The films in which his paranoia about upcoming threats and not being able to save everyone is his greatest flaw. A "suit of armour around the world" not "suit of armour around me and only me".
@@ginge641 I hate to say this, but his first attempt to make a suit of armor around the world lifted a city in the sky and tried to lay waste to the whole planet. His second attempt to create that suit of armor around the world paralized his friend, and later got killed, because a stone inside his forehead was needed to wipe out half the universe. And by the way, even after creating Ultron, Tony insisted on making another superbot, without knowing if it will turn bad or not, that's after getting told by all his friends that it is a bad idea. And all that because he wanted to prove himself.
The analysis of Thor is just incorrect. He had a couple deeply emotional moments. One occurred when he was reintroduced at his new house with Hulk, another when he was speaking with his mother before leaving. They also showed that he's still worthy despite his size and depression, which is very important.
A couple deeply-emotional moments, and a ton of moments where he's senselessly made the butt of joke after joke.
The arc itself was fine, just not how the universe itself was pretty much making fun of him. His trauma should've been somber, not reduced to the equivalent of fart jokes.
@@Lugbzurg he had enough "somber" in Infinity War, this was an uplifting movie overall. You either like the MCU or you don't man, this is their style.
Didn't even read the actual title, saw "featuring Overly Sarcastic Productions" and I clicked
The vormir scene was so interesting because it was a battle between two characters that are trying to save the other and kill themselves.
Just as a devil's advocate to what Red said about Thor, I don't think it was supposed to be overtly funny. Also they did something similar to Spiderman in the Spiderverse movie. Plus he's doesn't stay that way throughout the film, only really the first half. Plus this wasn't really his swan song like it was for Tony and Steve, so we can still see badass Thor in the next film. Other thoughts let me know
John Martin even if it wasn’t meant to be overtly funny, I think it read that way. Whenever he was on screen, my theater was laughing, excluding the scene with his mom (cause who would laugh at that)
Christian NoName well still, he wasn't that way throughout the entire film and it wouldn't be the first time I've seen this kind of arc
John Martin yeah, I know. I’m just saying
@@Christian-vq3lr People were laughing in my theatre at scenes with Thor in them, but not whenever he was on screen.
Like his introduction scene, for instance. Hilarious! everybody laughing their heads off... until Prof. Hulk mentioned Thanos, and suddenly everybody in the theatre remembered why Thor was getting drunk and bing-bing-wahoo'ing his problems away in a hideaway for the last 5 years, and the whole place went quiet.
two of the most ambitious crossover in the same video, and a lot of good loking cartoon characters.
They call avengers the greatest crossover, but this crossover gets me far more excited.
"Avengers" could mean a lot of things.
A few things:
1. I believe Tony was actually already researching time travel for a while before, as like a possibility. His reasons would have been his guilt over Peter Parker, but after failing over and over again, he would have given up and him saying it was impossible was just a lashing out with his own failure. But with the clue provided by Ant Man he would have finally solved the problem. Now a good chunk of this was speculation, but what I got out of the movie was that Tony was hiding the fact he was looking into time travel, not that he suddenly and randomly managed to crack it in an afternoon.
2. Others have already said this, but I did not get any kind of "oh laugh at this guy" vibes from Thor, at least not in any manner that would be detrimental to the character. Much like the others, he is essentially at his lowest point: Cap feels lost, Tony is too hesitant to even take action, and Thor has let himself go completely having lost everything that made him who he was, his family, most of his people, his home and now his pride, and turned into the other side of a king: From the mighty and wise warrior to the flatulent, almost uncaring king. I did feel like there was a lot of levity to his character, maybe a little more than it should, but the way I see it, that is just his way of being broken, which a lot better than everyone dealing with the tension in the same way. (The Hulk was the one exception, who managed to make something positive out of being broken)
3. I want to bring up that I don't think Natasha and Clint being together was a coincidence in-universe (this isn't taking from the video, just since I'm talking about it anyway). Let's not forget there were people in that room that knew what would be the price, specifically Nebula who had little care for most of the people there and definitely all the hatred in the world for Thanos. I believe she may have had a hand in setting it up so Natasha and Clint ended up going together to get the soul stone.
4.A lot of people seem to misunderstand Thano's final change of plans. This was a Thanos who genuinely believed in his idea to save the universe, but hasn't had the fulfillment of actually doing so. He is still hungry to take action, but now gets to see the consequences are less than perfect. He sees the grief, and the avenger's actions to unmake what he made, in his eyes he bestowed a gift upon the world that the world can't appreciate because of the trauma of what was lost- and in a way, he is right. What he wants to do is remake the universe, which doesn't mean wiping out all life, but remaking all life, making it so that life, that universe is twisted in such a way as to make it appreciate the world they have and Thanos himself, without knowing of what was lost to get their "paradise" if you will- as Thanos says in the movie, after captain comments on the blood lost "They'll never know.". Thanos has in his own twisted way, learned from the mistake that resulted from his victory.
5.I believe Thano's acts of near sadism can be explained by two things, and that his more calm and collected self is the real Thanos (as opposed to your theory of the angry something). First is shows of power, in many of those scenes, Thanos is trying to demonstrate that he has the upper hand to his opponents. Thanos wants to crush the spirits of those who would oppose him more than their bodies, as his quest isn't (in his head) to harm people, but to save them. But he is also the kind who knows that he needs to make sure people won't want to get in his way. If needs to be a little cruel to achieve that, then so be it.
The other kind is more visible in the third act of Endgame, where he has developed a natural animosity against the people who REGULARLY COME TO BEAT HIM UP AND SCREW WITH HIM. The Avengers far from the biggest threat, also came to "harass" him after he's already won and is just farming, they made a mockery of him in that first scene. They keep fighting him, they travelled through time and space to not only try to stop him, but once he had already won to rip his victory prize straight out of his hands. I think anyone would seem a little sadistic if they had a chance to, in their heads, justifiably harm people that were that much of a nuisance.
10:50 You seriously called her Padmé! XD That is awesome
Infinity War had one incredible moment for me when the credits rolled. Stakes? How about a little kid just screaming "But I don't WANT THEM TO BE DEEEEEAAD!!!!" from the back of the theater...lmao, THAT'S STAKES.
Now I can't help but want to see the universe where the avengers lost *again*, and Thanos created a new universe.
There's no way it wouldn't have its own set of flaws that he couldn't predict, so it would be very interesting.
I think Red is wrong with her assessment of Thor in Endgame. When Thor was seen laughing and making jokes while abandoning his people to live in a basement, that happens when you are depressed. There are people who laugh it off, who put on weight and abandon their responsibilities just so they feel better. The amount of joy I saw in Thor's face when he saw that he was worthy shone a massive spotlight out of the bleak reality he was living. Rhodes dismissing him by saying he had Cheese Wiz in his blood is a nod that there are those who do not recognize that someone is going through a tough time. Everyone else was stopping him because they knew at some level, he was suicidal. It wasn't until round two with Thanos and their inevitable victory did he start feeling better and recognize what he wants. Thor's journey was that of grief and how different people process it.
Now that the MCU is over (or at least a large portion of it) I want them to release a special pack containing all the movies leading up to and including Endgame.
I think you got the Tony- Thanos contrast wrong. Thanos is portrayed as quite intelligent- perhaps not the mechanic Tony is, but a powerful tactician and strategist. Their contrast is between the proud man who recognizes his faults when they are shoved in his face and the proud man who will not do so.
Haha, Red's anger at Thor's treatment is hilarious.
The path Thanos took to accomplish his goal transformed his personality, culminating with the lines "what did it cost?" - "Everything".
When they went back on time, they brought the old sadistic bloodthirsty Thanos
This is one thing I took from Thanos' transformation and have never seen someone say.
"But it was mostly played for jokes about America's ass" XD
On the note of Thanos being villainous, at a convention I attempted to ask comic book author Ron Marz (who shared an office with Jim Starlin, the creator of Thanos) during the period in which the original Infinity storyline was written (starting with Thanos Quest) about the kind of villain Thanos is; asking if he was just evil for evil's sake or if he was motivated by outside forces (because he doesn't just switch between those two in the films, he does so, quite often, in the comics as well), but Ron interrupted me and said 'Thanos isn't a villain, he's just the protagonist of his own story'.
He didn't actually answer my question but still.
Addendum: 'Mr. I am inevitable' is also said, by Ron Marz, to be self-destructive. He doesn't just want to win, he wants a challenge, often self-sabotaging his plans (in some way or another) to actually give the heroes a fighting chance, and then he is oh-so-shocked when they win.
There is also a big difference between comic book Thanos and MCU Thanos though.
Even though there are parts of Thor’s arc in Endgame that I like Red’s rant gave me LIFE. Thanks.
"That they cannot predict"
Full Fat Videos: You underestimate my power
Gotta love to see you three collaborating
00:43 instantly one of my favoritest crossovers ever
Also, love the idea of "the oven of fate is not done baking them yet" lol
Infinity war is the greatest crossover
Hello future me and overly sarcastic productions: hold our cartoon beers
Those who think thicc Thor is just there to be the butt of all the jokes, watch Captain Midnight's video on Thor in Endgame. I completely bought into Endgame Thor and looovveeed him! As far as I could see, it was right in line with the Thor we know and love!
Sounds like fatphobia if you can't take someone gaining a lot of weight while being depressed any other way than a joke.
Favorite avenger: Scarlet Witch
Favorite moment: “I don’t even know who you are” “ you will”
One scene with Thor was not played for laughs and made me physically uncomfortable. When Smulk said "Thanos" in front of Thor the first time. That was proof of Thor's intense truama and how desparate he was to ignore, dismiss, escape and/or cover up his feelings, be it with beer, video games or humor. I bought into Thor. Getting fat was natural. Why train if fighting begets failure? Ignore your calling or it'll lead to more pain.
rewatching this video, i realized that i think part of the reason natasha's death was so unsatisfying for me was that she didnt really have a character arc to wrap up. She had the beginnings of one in catws with her search for who she is when she's not hiding, but she never resolved that in any meaningful way. it felt less like she died at the end of her arc and mroe like clipping a loose plot thread the writers kept dropping throughout the movies
Cinema Therapy actually has a video about her arc that I, personally, quite enjoyed- I didn't think she had one either, turns out it was just subtle.
I relate to Endgame Thor on a personal level. I didn’t have a traumatic experience like him, but clinical depression did the same thing to me. I coped by eating, laying around, and distracting myself with games. I dropped out of school so I could stay in my room all day, only going out to get food or go to the bathroom. I still deal with that to this day. That depression made me 50 pounds overweight and made me go from being able to keep up or even outpace my peers in sports/academics to becoming the slow one in every sense of the term. Thor isn’t played for laughs. He’s played for realism.
YES TWO OF M;Y FAVORITE CHANNELS COLLABORATING
Unlike their previous collaboration, I did not see the whole title before watching the video. So, I was genuinely surprised when Red and Blue showed up.
I wholeheartedly agree with Red that it’s a shame that Thor’s obvious suffering and PTSD symptoms are played off for laughs is a bad think. Unfortunately, as several in the comments have already pointed out, it’s not unrealistic. People not recognising or sympathising with symptoms of poor mental heath, rather to joke about it is a problem that happens all the time.
I did love one small moment though, when Thor was explaining the Ether to everybody and he begins rambling before starting to suffer a panic attack. When we scan the room, we see most of the avengers watching Thor with a mixture of pity, embarrassment and disgust, but then we see Tony quietly and calmly tap him on the shoulder and say “I know buddy”, then lead him off.
I felt it perfectly showed that, out of everyone, Tony understood. He knew the symptoms of PTSD, as a fellow sufferer, and he truly cared and empathised with Thor. He didn’t belittle him or make a witty comment, as would normally be expected of him, choosing instead to be kind and patient, and I found that quite touching.
Captain America: "We don't trade lives!"
Widow&Hawkeye: "Hold our Beers"
I don't entirely agree with Red's point on Thor. Hulk did recognized he was depressed, showed that he cared and genuinely tried to offer a helping hand.
Perhaps the rest weren't so much dismissive of Thor's break down, but decided to allow him to feel his grief and process it in his own way. Also noteworthy, he didn't need to fully heal mentally and recover his physique to be a hero.
It's ok not to be in shape and feel broken, you are still a worth person.
PS: I cried when he met his mother, who he knew he could not save, and hadn't been able to say goodbye before, she showed so much wisdom.
Crossover with OSP? Instant like!
Edit: Lol, Red went ham in this one
I think the reason Thanos was even more evil in endgame is because in infinity war he had to kill gamora to get all the stones but in Endgame the stones came to him without him having to sacrifice Gamora to get it so he really couldn't appreciate the sacrifice of a soul like he had to infinity war. his attitude completely changed after he killed Gamora in infinity war
Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is a good show.
When I walked out of the theater, I knew one thing for certain. People kept laughing at scenes with Thor because they’re fat-shaming assholes. And I’m willing to bet when I can watch it alone without a huge crowd, all of those scenes with him won’t play as comedic. They’ll play as one of the most realistic and painful depictions of depression I’ve seen in a blockbuster that I’m pretty sure I saw when watching that movie. Because I’ve had it and that was it to a T. That scene where he wanted to put on the gauntlet; oh my fuck.
"Stop Psychopath Barney"
I probably laughed at that more than I should've.
"it's not about how much we lost, it's about how much we have left."
"He just walks in and takes it from Padme."
I love when you throw these jokes in.
Red is me seven years ago when I was convinced (still am) that Whedon didnt like Cap and sidelined him completely in favor of making Iron Man flawless. The only reason he got as much screentime as he did was because they couldnt go and name Iron Man as the official leader of the Avengers but he went as close to that as possible.
But you make a good point Red, Infinity War definitely undid everything that made Thor great in Ragnarok but I think it was done decently so we had to squint to see it.
I'm gonna forgive you calling Rhodey "Rhodes", because you called Nebula "Neb" like she's just your college roommate.
his name is James Rhodes
@raju ramdall I'm sorry for the mistake but eh. Po-tay-to Po-tah-to
But...it’s his name?
@@ThatGreyGentleman yeah, someone already pointed out my mistake, but still, points for calling Nebula "Neb", cause she's ruthless and so serious that calling her "Neb" is actually funny for me
his name is Rhodes. 59 likes too
Whaaaat this is the best unexpected RUclips crossover so far!! Amazing, Overly Sarcastic Productions is one of the best, good choice!!
10:50 "He just walks in and takes it from padme." LMFAO.
I believe red completely missed thee mark on Thor. It was my favorite part of the movie was seeing him go through his struggles as someone who self destructive habits which causes the ones around you to doubt you. He overcame it, its inspiring.
Gonna straight up disagree with Red here. To me, Thor's arc was the most touching, beautiful- and clever- of the film. We are introduced to him as a character to be laughed at, and we are encouraged to find his depression and his weight gain funny. Jokes and quips are made by characters at his expense- and in what I'm inclined to call the 'ludonarrative' of the film, we are encouraged to do to the same. This then comes to a peak when he has a panic attack to meet his mother, which seems to be a terrible idea. However, she accepts him, and loves him unconditionally. She respects him, and does not laugh at him. And that's why I say ludonarrative- because in that scene you see his naked trauma, and you realise how terrible it was to dismiss him. He needed care and affection, not to be beaten down. And how does that scene end? He summons the hammer. No matter what, his weight, his mental health, none of those matter to still be worthy, both of the hammer of Thor, and of love. Additionally, when prepares for battle at the end, he doesn't lose his hair, his weight, the signifiers of his trauma (and items in themselves)- instead, he just dons fitting armour and braids his hair. The trauma isn't to be dismissed, but accepted. With anything like this, there is the argument that if some people miss the subtext, then it should have been made clearer- but I think that reading Thor only as a laughable fat guy in Endgame, for better- or for ill- only scratches the surface of him.
No red, your wrong about Thor in endgame. He was pretending to not care with laughter and jokes, all of which he either make himself or he laughs at himself. But it's all a cover, if you looked his face, behind the smiles are tears. His laughs are hallow and empty.
Yes! I love it when you guys collaborate!!!
Endgame missed the line I most wanted:
Checkmate
Plus points for you calling Jane Foster Padme'. 😂
You know, that really makes a lot of sense. About how, "The fate of the world!" doesn't really do anything to creat tension in audience members. The thing is though, that I've always been really super interested in the idea of a story that does the fate of the world well. I had a dream once about the universe ending, and it gave me a feeling I hadn't had before. Idk, I just like thinking about it
Oh gosh I freaking love their Channel
I'm so glad you guys collabed! I love watching both of your channels. This video was so cool to see
Jesus Red, I usually like your analyses, but you missed the mark on Thor so hard it physically hurts. I wish you had talked about literally anything else, because this was no good.
Otherwise great video and analyses. The importance of stakes can't be overstated, but the way stakes manifest is very different depending on the narrative. Consequences always existed in the MCU, but these two Avengers movies really pushed them to the limit.