I’m glad this one isn’t blocked. I really appreciate your inclusive out of the box thoughts Clay. As a 35 YO women who has never been in a romantic relationship I found this refreshingly validating. My parents are divorced and very different yet I feel (well-intended) pressure from both of them to be in a romantic relationship. My dad has been fishing for me to come out for years, regularly asking about any special person in my life and that they’ll love me no matter what (however I don’t feel accepted 😁). My mum really wants me marry a man and have children and we’ll chat about time is running out often. My friends suggested dating, with a why not attitude. It bugs me that my tittle and marriage status comes up on forms. I’m grateful no one has been mean about that I’m always single though. Thanks Clay for helping me feel accepted.
It's not really all about romance though. It's about building a life together, creating children and investments that will carry you into your old age. Life can get really lonely, if you can find a good mate that's not gonna rob you blind and steal your kids, to build a future with. Go for it.
@@ClayArnall yea I agree. I would say the most important thing for me, is just being able to be myself and not be attacked for it. Respect going both ways. Her having values, principles and ethics that I can admire. They are the foundation of love for me.
Romance is a feature not a type of relationship, I agree with that part of it. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t build life, and worthwhile investments, and lasting memories that carry into old age and become stories after your gone, with more than one person. It doesn’t follow automatically that you have to do all of those things, or should do any of those things with only one person. That’s the problem with the escalator, is you are expected to only ride one at a time.
I tend to think about all the elderly folks I know who have spouses that pass away and children that move away. There are many people who end up living out a decade by themself. This always made me question thoughts about getting married and having kids to avoid the loneliness of life when some people who do those things successfully, still end up alone, but possibly with less coping skills in regards to those feelings because they always relied on others to fulfill those aspects of their life.
It’s interesting to see the comment section filled with people who are projecting or see you as someone who needs help instead of understanding that you are simply questioning, contemplating and curious about this topic. You were careful not to push any personal opinions across and it was quite exciting to listen as I am the same way. Friends don’t get me either when I am talking/thinking out loud to them but I love the exercise as it feels rewarding mentally and emotionally having contemplated and looked at a certain idea in all the ways possible. Excellent talk!
one of my biggest nightmares is to get married and then fall in love with someone else so i hope that never happens because i would be totally devastated
Nice. Seems to me, the KEY part of this…escalator flaw is…. You called it….These steps are really not talked about or chosen intentionally! They are just a cultural expectation. In my youth, I married to please my family and not live in “Sin”… didn’t last. Too young. Much healthier to agree to Not,….. follow this..Cultural Loop. Supporting each other’s growth/changes/maturity….is a very different personal choice. Thanks Clay. Always a great conversation.
Just goes to show how deeply imbedded religiosity permeates our society. Best to be a free thinker and follow your own path. Enjoyed this video as it’s often something I have thought about relationships within our culture
As a super progressive atheist who has tried a few relationship styles, I find myself really gravitating toward the traditional relationship escalator. I want someone to build my life with and possibly have a family. I know you’ve had previous conversations about duty vs freedom. I feel like yes, maybe people in partnerships don’t give each other freedom to change and explore relationships with other people or grow in different directions. But in my experience doing it and knowing people who have been in open or poly relationships, most people aren’t capable of balancing relationships with everyone being able to achieve the level of depth I would need in a relationship. With all the of communication skills, emotional intelligence, balance of selfishness and selflessness required, plus people involved that aren’t even my partner that could influence my relationship(s), most people can’t do it well. Most can barely do it well with one person. I do not want to settle, but I’m on the hunt for a partner that I think I would be compatible enough with that we could stay together for at least a time enough to raise kids and build wealth so that if we ultimately separate, it would not be a huge financial shock to either of us. There is some level to the practical things that I’m really looking for in a partnership. I think if we had a different structure as a society such that money and resources and child-rearing were not tied to romantic relationships, maybe I could see a different way. In our current world, the outcomes for children are better in marriage. I just think a lot of people choose their spouse wrong. You also have to keep in mind that women who desire families have a biological clock. You can only trial and error for so long before you run out of time to find a stable partner to raise kids with. The stakes are high for us with relationships not lasting or failing. Being a single mother is really hard, even co-parenting is hard. As they say, it takes a village to raise a child, but we don’t have villages anymore.
I gave up on expectations I don’t even do gf stuff for guys who like me enough.my last bf was attracted to everyone but me,which made me say so why date me if your minds not in this?that basic thing of having someone even if it’s not what you want.I’m okay with being comfortable with myself and my independence
Clay, you are a male version of myself. I am starting to think that we are kindred souls. We are just complex souls in general. Just be yourself, no matter what society pushes on us. I love meaningful relationships; however, I love my freedom too much, which makes everything complicated. Wish you well, mate.
Hi, im a 20 years old infj guy from Spain, I just wanted to leave a comment thanking you for your videos talking about this curious personality type (not talking specifically about this one). I feel like if you just explained a ton of stuff that it's just constantly in my head, and that's pretty difficult to give an answer to. I came to your videos a while ago feeling kind of lost after a breakup, and it was thanks to you that I understood what actually happened and why I ended up doorslaming her (without actually been conscious of what I was doing), and really helped me to move forward, like if watching your videos saved me from an insane amount of hours of bad overthinking in search of answers. These days I'd came back to your videos, and once again they're helping me a ton now that I have some big issues going on in my current relationship (but nothing like the other one, and this time being much more healthy). I've also shared one of your videos to my girlfriend, who's willing to understand me better in order to solve this problems. I honestly don't know how this is gonna end, but for sure I gotta thank you for helping me face things in a healthier/knowledgeable way. Thanks a lot, and I hope you read this sometime, because I'm sure I'm not the only one who you helped with your content. Regards :)
I’m an INFJ female, and I find I end up in a lot of relationships that I didn’t mean to end up in. My last relationship, I was trying to avoid getting into a serious relationship for at least 3 months after first meeting the person, so I could give myself fair time to see how they really act even when I’m not shiny and new to them. This did not work out. After a month, we were pretty close and he gave me an ultimatum to be with him or not and manipulated me through guilt to just be his gf. Just less than a year later, I finally broke up with him after a lot of horrible stuff happened, and pulled a good old fashioned INFJ door slam. Then j vowed not to date again until I got my degree. But then someone else slid into my life (a former friend) and made advances, and I told him that now was not a good time and I didn’t wanna get into anything serious and I also am not fond of FWB type arrangements. But we continued to get closer and spend more time together and then he continued to make physical advances that I just stopped rejecting at some point, and now we are essentially “together” even tho we have talked about it since and decided we aren’t technically together. But like, we go to public events together. I’ve met his family and he’s met mine (although our families knew each other before, we’ve met them seemingly “together” now). I can’t even explain how smoothly everything happened but now I’m having strong feelings for someone else in my life and I really want to be with them, and I never would’ve allowed myself to have feelings like that if I was actually in a relationship, but now I have to essentially go through a breakup with the guy I’m seeing now even though j didn’t even agree to be together in the first place and have expressed multiple times how I actually do not want to be together rn or maybe ever. I feel like the relationship escalator applies rlly well here and it drives me a bit insane
Dr. Elizabeth Brake coined a term very adjacent to everything you are saying, she called it 'amatonormativity.' I think you'll appreciate her theories; specifically the book 'minimizing marriage'.These types of theories have long circulated in feminist and gender studies. Love seeing videos about this!
And here I am - not interested in being in a romantic/long term relationship at all 🤣😂 Great video, though! :) I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.
Culture doesn’t dictate our emotions (ie; jealousy) since cross-cultural psychology research finds that emotions are universal human experiences. Rather, culture establishes norms and even laws around how to handle emotional states (ie; don’t assault someone in a jealous rage and don’t remain attached to someone who causes you distress by making you jealous and then gaslighting you about how you feel with some pretentious justification about “cultural norms” in relationships).
Maybe culture doesn't dictate emotions, but it gives people license to behave in certain ways, given the emotion they are feeling. For example, men are often encouraged to practice anger, whereas if society was less accepting of male anger, they may be forced to deal with those emotions in different ways.
@@ClayArnall that’s totally true, I agree with that. I don’t agree with dismissing the reasons why people have emotions in the first place. Male aggression is usually tied to repressed emotions and invalidating feelings in the first place. Then it snowballs and people are like “why can’t you handle your emotions?” Probably because they were told that feelings aren’t valid in early childhood. That’s a viscous circle.
Nice job Clay👏 I strip for a living. I’ve been happily enjoying this industry/lifestyle for decades now. This puts me in a unique situation with regards to intimacy because I share so much of it in a restricted unorthodox structure. This naturally leaves my customers feeling confused about my intentions. I like teaching them about the relationship escalator analogy because sometimes I genuinely adore them n love where the relationship could eventually evolve. There’s no kissing or sex taking place but we do get close n its beautiful in my opinion
I'm sorry that you feel like you have to be forced to be with someone... A good relationship you're not forced to do anything... You simply choose the things that will make you happy... If you like being with someone, you will be with them, but if you don't feel like it, you won't.. People should stay together if their lives are better together than would be if they were alone... Do you really believe people stay together because of other people? Or instead, it is a fear of being alone? You also haven't dived deep into yourself to realise that you don't have to follow anything.. It's noone's business... Have you ever thought that maybe you just haven't found someone who you will be with by your will? Like you feel free with them as you do with your best friend? What do you want out of a relationship??? If you were in an island, and had to be with one person in that island for the rest of your life .. how would that person make you feel?
This is the first video on this, that seemed to take my approach of making a positive case for why we should throw that model out, rather than tolerate it. I really loved it. We have a very similar background growing up in religion, and both had really similar experiences regarding the relationship piece. Would love to get 30 minutes of your time to discuss this topic, and dive a bit deeper with you.
This is one of the strongest reasons I am quitting my 6 year relationsship. Because I am living a social / cultural norm which isn´t ME. And forcing my partner not living the standard norm he wants to would not be okay either. I have never heard of the relationship escalator before, but my own thoughts were challenging the norm and this is very similiar. Why can´t I have male friends and have a strong bonding? Why is there such strong border between friendship and love? Why isn´t it okay to hold someones hand if we both want to? And why is holding somebodys hand of the different sex mean I or he wants sexual contact? Why is marriage better? Why is friendship not so important than romantic love? Why can´t I step backwards? Why can´t I have children with lets say a homosexual couple and call this "family"? Why can´t I love serveral people at the same time? Why are people telling me, something is wrong with me, just I think and feel differently? I want strong and longlasting connections with people, with deep conversations and bondings for as long as both feel right with it. Maybe for a lifetime, if this works out. But with all this different thinking it will be very hard for me finding people who are willing to do this as well and not discard me as soon they have found "the one". Or argue with me, that I am not sane. You need to be very strong to challange those norms and still stand up for yourself.
Clay - These are a lot of the same thoughts I have been chewing on as I am also currently divorcing an ESTJ. (I think you mentioned previously your ex was this type.) Examining why I stayed so long, reflecting on to what degree external "rules" I took on as my own, what I want going forward in future relationships, etc. I always enjoy hearing your thoughts, as we process very similarly. Are you also a 4w5? Lots of parallels, regardless. I find your videos very validating, so thank you.🙏🏻
I find this video very interesting. I mostly agree with the second part, mainly focus on "keeping (even dysfunctional) relationships as long as possible, every day counts :)". However my opinion on the first part "what is in the common relationship package" (constructed by society) differs. There are 2 things, one is that most people say what should be in the relationship (such as closeness, trust, fidelity, etc.) but their relationships are the opposite. If I consider only relationships that truly fulfill needs commonly agreed on by the society, then my opinion seems to be different than yours. Because if I remove any component from "ideal man-woman romantic relationship", it starts to break down as a whole. So the "ideal relationship" in my opinion is the best option, that could work if both parties act in accordance with these goals. It is in my opinion not something that society is pushing "just because it's normal", but "because it's proven to be the best solution so far".
if it was the best solution, wouldn't the statistics support that? By any definition or metric you chose, it is clear that the societal definition of a romantic relationship is failing more often than it is succeeding.
@@ClayArnall Good point (and thanks for reply). The problem in my opinion is that maybe many people do not want "what is in the package", but they pretend (or even think) they want it. But they do not behave that way. In my opinion relationships mostly fail, because people do not follow the "escalator guidelines". If you want fidelity in the relationship, you never get narcissistic supply from an affair (just a typical example IMHO). I think it is very similar with topic here ruclips.net/video/-liVyuPkbh0/видео.html - how deep relationship do you really really want? As I was thinking about it maybe the best way is to summarize "what is in the package", what needs are met by him/her and for him/her, and start removing individual components and thinking what happens if (...the other one wants ABC ... and does not get it from the relationship ... can he supply this XYZ and meet his need ABC somewhere else ?). In my opinion when you remove any of 'critical components', the relationship becomes quite dysfunctional in a lot more areas than what was removed. I am also very curious if things such as polyamory/polygamy really work, or is it just a symptom of some inner trauma?
I been thinking about a lot of the relationship expectations and I really thought i was going crazy with feeling like it didn’t make sense to me and this helped validate my feelings and thoughts on this because for a while I was trying to connect things to make sense of it all when it came to the expectations of relationships
I don't go in a relationship because I am expected to.. I did everything in my relationship cause I wanted to. Attraction is something you will always feel towards other people, but still choose to be faithful (or not :P) . I don't feel those social constructs as you are describing them. I do almost everything in my life cause I want to. And that special person because special, but not as special as my inborn family. Why not reflecting what you really want to do by yourself?
Thank you so much for this video! I am quite happily settled with my partner (house, marriage, kid) and the relationship escalator felt fine for us. That said, I am questioning the definition of relationship, as I believe you are. Implicit monogamy with all its unspoken expectations and with partners being codependent is beginning to sound and feel so illogical. Especially since I’m experiencing quite deep and profound romantic feelings towards not only my husband, but also to a male friend. According to monogamous norms, that would mean ‘I don’t love my partner enough’. But come on, that makes no sense! You can love your children equally but different yet you can’t love more than one romantic partner equally but different? It’s very much an exploration now, and to combat implicit norms requires A LOT of communication. I have no clue where it’ll go, but my thoughts about relationships have shifted at the least.
You left out the topic of children. The reason society has expectations for marriage is because your decisions affect your children. Being raised by a single parent is one a the leading factors to people having bad outcomes for themselves and society.
@@ClayArnall what you're sure of has no bearing on the fact that "co-parenting" is statistically proven to be a poor substitute for having parents who are married. Studies show children of divorce are more likely to have: - Higher instances of substance abuse; - Higher instances of teenage sexual activity; - Lower grades; - Increased instances of dropping out of school; - Decreased self-esteem; - Fewer friends; - Increased instances of committing a crime.
I agree. Having a healthy marriage is the best way for children to thrive. However, I maintain that a functional co-parenting relationship is better than a dis functional marriage.
BoldyGrow is a cool channel about polyamory. Lots of info. Very clear descriptions/definitions. Alok Vaid-Menon has some great content on romanticism and friendship.
Generally I really like Clays videos, but this one was a miss for me... I think there were some false interpretations of where relationship norms came from, it's not religion, it's way back. People chose to be monogamous before Christianity, partnering up was a good decision for survival. Nowadays, it's of course no so much about survival, but more about prosperity. Waiting to have a intimate relationship is also not necessarily a religious thing, it's practical as there are serious consequences, that's especially true before modern contraception. Even now, I would say it's practical to wait as no contraception is 100% effective and there are also phycological effects of these relationships. I think it is probably the base for this religious norm to appear, religious norms couldn't come out of nowhere, there is usually a good reason, but I agree it's important to question. I am saying this as someone who doesn't support religious establishment, but still has some sort of faith that doesn't fit into a specific box.
Curious where you’re getting your stats about humans being monogamous before Christianity? I think in general that may not be true. In fact, in the past it seems men were not expected to be monogamous, but women were for lineage reasons. Even in the Old Testament, people like king Solomon had hundreds of wives. If you go way back, it’s actually believed that in many tribes, women would have sex with multiple men so that nobody really knew who the father was, and thus multiple men would look out for her and her children. This is true for most species not just humans.
A very complete explanation. I must agree that there seems to be a big social control and judgement on this indeed. Sorry for the victims of that. However in a way I understand the idea of commitment in the context of having kids and a previous society in which the man was seen as sole provider. I think in that time the risk of seperation was a lot higher. Now our society is changing, and also the ideas of whether everyone should have kids are changing, obviously the form in which relationships take place, will change as well. I really liked how you described the purity of having a best friend btw. I think this is the ideal relationship in life, as you both know in this context, that you are in it out of free will haha. So I am curious what kind of sollutions you see for our culture and society on the topic of romantic relationships.
Hi Clay! Interesting video. Lately I have also been thinking about cultural norms but more in a context of the government forms. It appears to me that in Western culture democracy is almost treated as something holy and any discussion doubting the its superiority in current times is marginalized or even ridiculed (and here I don't mean democracy vs autocracy - there are many other forms). Any thoughts on this topics?
If you don't want to be in the stable super traditional relationship, just say no. Why do you make everything so complicated? Personally, I have much more simple and straightforward view on the romantic relationships. I'm not so sentimental and concentrated on them at all. For me, my life mission is the main goal. Family is important yet just purely additional, secondary part. In my opinion, getting in relationship is an automatical process and you shouldn't care SO MUCH about it. But maybe I don't understand you. I'm just a Te-aux user.
I wouldn't say is just culture, but as you said it's religions, because Islam also has the same opinion on a relationship between a man and a woman that it should only be under the embrella of marriage.
@@ClayArnall We as Muslims have in Coran that Christianity came from the same and only God ''Allah'', it is the same guidings, the same principles, it is just different messengers of God for different ages. We believe that Jesus is also messenger of God. Just to Add 🤷💁
@@ClayArnall No, Christians doesn't believe even that the Coran is a book of God and that Mohamed is a prophet of God like the Muslim does toward the Christians book and Jesus.
The purest relationship= Friendship. I said this very same thing to a newly found friend a few months back when he decided he wanted to be more than friends and I, however, did not. The one thing about friends is, if both are mature and allow each other to just be, these relationships last a life time. Total acceptance of who they are and what they do. And I like to think that when pair bonding with someone, these same "rules" should apply. That's funny! Using the word "rules" to define a relationship with no rules. lol. Anyway. I think our culture is starting to get away from the traditional "expectations" of relationships which was basically slavery, or being owned by your partner. These are the reasons many relationships don't last, and once women started entering the workforce and no longer bound to a marriage because of the inability to support oneself is when divorce started to become a kind of norm to date. But even more so, many people are choosing not to marry at all. But the issue with pair bonding is in some states common law marriage will still be like you got married. These are things I ponder. For myself, I like being in a relationship but only if it is the right one. And I love being with someone whom is familiar and who gets me and who I can laugh with and enjoy the many places I plan to go and see. In the end, that person will be my best friend more so than just a lover, because I def want them to be there because they choose and not because its expected. After having been with someone for a long time and its a healthy relationship, these are the things that create a good life, not to mention a bond unlike any other.
You will know older, when you need "home" person. 65 and health concerns needing a" home friend."To help provide comfort. So wait until 50. Young is so fussy we are irritating. Infj' s are irritating like me. Marry an older woman like me! WE ARE IRRITATING.
The word expectation is used too many times in this video.. Why would you think that a romantic relationship is an expectation but friends aren't? You are also "expected" to have friends... You are also "expected" to get on with your family... If you are spending time with someone cause your expected to, I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're not being honest and real with yourself I am driven inwardly, I just do whatever the heck I want.
did you watch the video? I talk about friends in here. Maybe you didn't make it to that part. But yeah, if you don't get what I'm saying here, then feel free to ignore it! This is made for the people that are bothered by this, of which there are many.
@@ClayArnall I don't understand, but I would like to know where you're coming from... It feels to me you would need to break out of that molde that stucks you.
If you knew me at all, you would know that I am happily committed to somebody. The difference is I specifically chose it and define it myself rather than accept an arbitrary definition by society. There is a nuanced difference there that falls on def ears to many. Feel free to move along if this doesn't resonate with you.
I’m glad this one isn’t blocked. I really appreciate your inclusive out of the box thoughts Clay. As a 35 YO women who has never been in a romantic relationship I found this refreshingly validating. My parents are divorced and very different yet I feel (well-intended) pressure from both of them to be in a romantic relationship. My dad has been fishing for me to come out for years, regularly asking about any special person in my life and that they’ll love me no matter what (however I don’t feel accepted 😁). My mum really wants me marry a man and have children and we’ll chat about time is running out often. My friends suggested dating, with a why not attitude. It bugs me that my tittle and marriage status comes up on forms. I’m grateful no one has been mean about that I’m always single though. Thanks Clay for helping me feel accepted.
It's not really all about romance though.
It's about building a life together, creating children and investments that will carry you into your old age.
Life can get really lonely, if you can find a good mate that's not gonna rob you blind and steal your kids, to build a future with.
Go for it.
The only thing lonelier than being alone is being with the wrong person.
@@ClayArnall yea I agree.
I would say the most important thing for me, is just being able to be myself and not be attacked for it.
Respect going both ways. Her having values, principles and ethics that I can admire. They are the foundation of love for me.
Romance is a feature not a type of relationship, I agree with that part of it. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t build life, and worthwhile investments, and lasting memories that carry into old age and become stories after your gone, with more than one person.
It doesn’t follow automatically that you have to do all of those things, or should do any of those things with only one person. That’s the problem with the escalator, is you are expected to only ride one at a time.
I tend to think about all the elderly folks I know who have spouses that pass away and children that move away. There are many people who end up living out a decade by themself. This always made me question thoughts about getting married and having kids to avoid the loneliness of life when some people who do those things successfully, still end up alone, but possibly with less coping skills in regards to those feelings because they always relied on others to fulfill those aspects of their life.
It’s interesting to see the comment section filled with people who are projecting or see you as someone who needs help instead of understanding that you are simply questioning, contemplating and curious about this topic. You were careful not to push any personal opinions across and it was quite exciting to listen as I am the same way. Friends don’t get me either when I am talking/thinking out loud to them but I love the exercise as it feels rewarding mentally and emotionally having contemplated and looked at a certain idea in all the ways possible. Excellent talk!
one of my biggest nightmares is to get married and then fall in love with someone else so i hope that never happens because i would be totally devastated
Nice. Seems to me, the KEY part of this…escalator flaw is…. You called it….These steps are really not talked about or chosen intentionally! They are just a cultural expectation. In my youth, I married to please my family and not live in “Sin”… didn’t last. Too young. Much healthier to agree to Not,….. follow this..Cultural Loop. Supporting each other’s growth/changes/maturity….is a very different personal choice. Thanks Clay. Always a great conversation.
Just goes to show how deeply imbedded religiosity permeates our society. Best to be a free thinker and follow your own path. Enjoyed this video as it’s often something I have thought about relationships within our culture
As a super progressive atheist who has tried a few relationship styles, I find myself really gravitating toward the traditional relationship escalator. I want someone to build my life with and possibly have a family. I know you’ve had previous conversations about duty vs freedom. I feel like yes, maybe people in partnerships don’t give each other freedom to change and explore relationships with other people or grow in different directions. But in my experience doing it and knowing people who have been in open or poly relationships, most people aren’t capable of balancing relationships with everyone being able to achieve the level of depth I would need in a relationship. With all the of communication skills, emotional intelligence, balance of selfishness and selflessness required, plus people involved that aren’t even my partner that could influence my relationship(s), most people can’t do it well. Most can barely do it well with one person. I do not want to settle, but I’m on the hunt for a partner that I think I would be compatible enough with that we could stay together for at least a time enough to raise kids and build wealth so that if we ultimately separate, it would not be a huge financial shock to either of us. There is some level to the practical things that I’m really looking for in a partnership. I think if we had a different structure as a society such that money and resources and child-rearing were not tied to romantic relationships, maybe I could see a different way. In our current world, the outcomes for children are better in marriage. I just think a lot of people choose their spouse wrong. You also have to keep in mind that women who desire families have a biological clock. You can only trial and error for so long before you run out of time to find a stable partner to raise kids with. The stakes are high for us with relationships not lasting or failing. Being a single mother is really hard, even co-parenting is hard. As they say, it takes a village to raise a child, but we don’t have villages anymore.
It’s always easier to go with the flow than against it. Not surprising
I gave up on expectations I don’t even do gf stuff for guys who like me enough.my last bf was attracted to everyone but me,which made me say so why date me if your minds not in this?that basic thing of having someone even if it’s not what you want.I’m okay with being comfortable with myself and my independence
“Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.” - A. Schopenhauer
I mean, I agree, but how is this relevant?
Clay, you are a male version of myself. I am starting to think that we are kindred souls. We are just complex souls in general. Just be yourself, no matter what society pushes on us. I love meaningful relationships; however, I love my freedom too much, which makes everything complicated. Wish you well, mate.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem as though people want relationships anymore. It’s a barren emotional landscape out there!
True indeed!
Hi, im a 20 years old infj guy from Spain, I just wanted to leave a comment thanking you for your videos talking about this curious personality type (not talking specifically about this one). I feel like if you just explained a ton of stuff that it's just constantly in my head, and that's pretty difficult to give an answer to. I came to your videos a while ago feeling kind of lost after a breakup, and it was thanks to you that I understood what actually happened and why I ended up doorslaming her (without actually been conscious of what I was doing), and really helped me to move forward, like if watching your videos saved me from an insane amount of hours of bad overthinking in search of answers.
These days I'd came back to your videos, and once again they're helping me a ton now that I have some big issues going on in my current relationship (but nothing like the other one, and this time being much more healthy). I've also shared one of your videos to my girlfriend, who's willing to understand me better in order to solve this problems. I honestly don't know how this is gonna end, but for sure I gotta thank you for helping me face things in a healthier/knowledgeable way.
Thanks a lot, and I hope you read this sometime, because I'm sure I'm not the only one who you helped with your content.
Regards :)
I’m an INFJ female, and I find I end up in a lot of relationships that I didn’t mean to end up in. My last relationship, I was trying to avoid getting into a serious relationship for at least 3 months after first meeting the person, so I could give myself fair time to see how they really act even when I’m not shiny and new to them. This did not work out. After a month, we were pretty close and he gave me an ultimatum to be with him or not and manipulated me through guilt to just be his gf. Just less than a year later, I finally broke up with him after a lot of horrible stuff happened, and pulled a good old fashioned INFJ door slam. Then j vowed not to date again until I got my degree. But then someone else slid into my life (a former friend) and made advances, and I told him that now was not a good time and I didn’t wanna get into anything serious and I also am not fond of FWB type arrangements. But we continued to get closer and spend more time together and then he continued to make physical advances that I just stopped rejecting at some point, and now we are essentially “together” even tho we have talked about it since and decided we aren’t technically together. But like, we go to public events together. I’ve met his family and he’s met mine (although our families knew each other before, we’ve met them seemingly “together” now). I can’t even explain how smoothly everything happened but now I’m having strong feelings for someone else in my life and I really want to be with them, and I never would’ve allowed myself to have feelings like that if I was actually in a relationship, but now I have to essentially go through a breakup with the guy I’m seeing now even though j didn’t even agree to be together in the first place and have expressed multiple times how I actually do not want to be together rn or maybe ever. I feel like the relationship escalator applies rlly well here and it drives me a bit insane
Dr. Elizabeth Brake coined a term very adjacent to everything you are saying, she called it 'amatonormativity.' I think you'll appreciate her theories; specifically the book 'minimizing marriage'.These types of theories have long circulated in feminist and gender studies. Love seeing videos about this!
Interesting I’ll check it out!
And here I am - not interested in being in a romantic/long term relationship at all 🤣😂 Great video, though! :) I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.
Culture doesn’t dictate our emotions (ie; jealousy) since cross-cultural psychology research finds that emotions are universal human experiences. Rather, culture establishes norms and even laws around how to handle emotional states (ie; don’t assault someone in a jealous rage and don’t remain attached to someone who causes you distress by making you jealous and then gaslighting you about how you feel with some pretentious justification about “cultural norms” in relationships).
Maybe culture doesn't dictate emotions, but it gives people license to behave in certain ways, given the emotion they are feeling. For example, men are often encouraged to practice anger, whereas if society was less accepting of male anger, they may be forced to deal with those emotions in different ways.
@@ClayArnall that’s totally true, I agree with that. I don’t agree with dismissing the reasons why people have emotions in the first place. Male aggression is usually tied to repressed emotions and invalidating feelings in the first place. Then it snowballs and people are like “why can’t you handle your emotions?” Probably because they were told that feelings aren’t valid in early childhood.
That’s a viscous circle.
@@LouisaWattno. It’s tied to entitlement
Nice job Clay👏 I strip for a living. I’ve been happily enjoying this industry/lifestyle for decades now. This puts me in a unique situation with regards to intimacy because I share so much of it in a restricted unorthodox structure. This naturally leaves my customers feeling confused about my intentions. I like teaching them about the relationship escalator analogy because sometimes I genuinely adore them n love where the relationship could eventually evolve. There’s no kissing or sex taking place but we do get close n its beautiful in my opinion
I'm sorry that you feel like you have to be forced to be with someone...
A good relationship you're not forced to do anything... You simply choose the things that will make you happy... If you like being with someone, you will be with them, but if you don't feel like it, you won't..
People should stay together if their lives are better together than would be if they were alone... Do you really believe people stay together because of other people?
Or instead, it is a fear of being alone?
You also haven't dived deep into yourself to realise that you don't have to follow anything.. It's noone's business...
Have you ever thought that maybe you just haven't found someone who you will be with by your will?
Like you feel free with them as you do with your best friend?
What do you want out of a relationship???
If you were in an island, and had to be with one person in that island for the rest of your life .. how would that person make you feel?
This is the first video on this, that seemed to take my approach of making a positive case for why we should throw that model out, rather than tolerate it. I really loved it. We have a very similar background growing up in religion, and both had really similar experiences regarding the relationship piece. Would love to get 30 minutes of your time to discuss this topic, and dive a bit deeper with you.
This is one of the strongest reasons I am quitting my 6 year relationsship. Because I am living a social / cultural norm which isn´t ME. And forcing my partner not living the standard norm he wants to would not be okay either. I have never heard of the relationship escalator before, but my own thoughts were challenging the norm and this is very similiar. Why can´t I have male friends and have a strong bonding? Why is there such strong border between friendship and love? Why isn´t it okay to hold someones hand if we both want to? And why is holding somebodys hand of the different sex mean I or he wants sexual contact? Why is marriage better? Why is friendship not so important than romantic love? Why can´t I step backwards? Why can´t I have children with lets say a homosexual couple and call this "family"? Why can´t I love serveral people at the same time? Why are people telling me, something is wrong with me, just I think and feel differently? I want strong and longlasting connections with people, with deep conversations and bondings for as long as both feel right with it. Maybe for a lifetime, if this works out. But with all this different thinking it will be very hard for me finding people who are willing to do this as well and not discard me as soon they have found "the one". Or argue with me, that I am not sane. You need to be very strong to challange those norms and still stand up for yourself.
Clay - These are a lot of the same thoughts I have been chewing on as I am also currently divorcing an ESTJ. (I think you mentioned previously your ex was this type.) Examining why I stayed so long, reflecting on to what degree external "rules" I took on as my own, what I want going forward in future relationships, etc. I always enjoy hearing your thoughts, as we process very similarly. Are you also a 4w5? Lots of parallels, regardless. I find your videos very validating, so thank you.🙏🏻
I find this video very interesting. I mostly agree with the second part, mainly focus on "keeping (even dysfunctional) relationships as long as possible, every day counts :)". However my opinion on the first part "what is in the common relationship package" (constructed by society) differs. There are 2 things, one is that most people say what should be in the relationship (such as closeness, trust, fidelity, etc.) but their relationships are the opposite. If I consider only relationships that truly fulfill needs commonly agreed on by the society, then my opinion seems to be different than yours. Because if I remove any component from "ideal man-woman romantic relationship", it starts to break down as a whole. So the "ideal relationship" in my opinion is the best option, that could work if both parties act in accordance with these goals. It is in my opinion not something that society is pushing "just because it's normal", but "because it's proven to be the best solution so far".
if it was the best solution, wouldn't the statistics support that? By any definition or metric you chose, it is clear that the societal definition of a romantic relationship is failing more often than it is succeeding.
@@ClayArnall Good point (and thanks for reply). The problem in my opinion is that maybe many people do not want "what is in the package", but they pretend (or even think) they want it. But they do not behave that way. In my opinion relationships mostly fail, because people do not follow the "escalator guidelines". If you want fidelity in the relationship, you never get narcissistic supply from an affair (just a typical example IMHO). I think it is very similar with topic here ruclips.net/video/-liVyuPkbh0/видео.html - how deep relationship do you really really want?
As I was thinking about it maybe the best way is to summarize "what is in the package", what needs are met by him/her and for him/her, and start removing individual components and thinking what happens if (...the other one wants ABC ... and does not get it from the relationship ... can he supply this XYZ and meet his need ABC somewhere else ?). In my opinion when you remove any of 'critical components', the relationship becomes quite dysfunctional in a lot more areas than what was removed.
I am also very curious if things such as polyamory/polygamy really work, or is it just a symptom of some inner trauma?
I been thinking about a lot of the relationship expectations and I really thought i was going crazy with feeling like it didn’t make sense to me and this helped validate my feelings and thoughts on this because for a while I was trying to connect things to make sense of it all when it came to the expectations of relationships
I don't go in a relationship because I am expected to..
I did everything in my relationship cause I wanted to. Attraction is something you will always feel towards other people, but still choose to be faithful (or not :P) .
I don't feel those social constructs as you are describing them. I do almost everything in my life cause I want to.
And that special person because special, but not as special as my inborn family.
Why not reflecting what you really want to do by yourself?
Don’t forget the spiritual moral compass of doing what is right as well
Thank you so much for this video! I am quite happily settled with my partner (house, marriage, kid) and the relationship escalator felt fine for us. That said, I am questioning the definition of relationship, as I believe you are. Implicit monogamy with all its unspoken expectations and with partners being codependent is beginning to sound and feel so illogical. Especially since I’m experiencing quite deep and profound romantic feelings towards not only my husband, but also to a male friend. According to monogamous norms, that would mean ‘I don’t love my partner enough’. But come on, that makes no sense! You can love your children equally but different yet you can’t love more than one romantic partner equally but different? It’s very much an exploration now, and to combat implicit norms requires A LOT of communication. I have no clue where it’ll go, but my thoughts about relationships have shifted at the least.
You left out the topic of children.
The reason society has expectations for marriage is because your decisions affect your children.
Being raised by a single parent is one a the leading factors to people having bad outcomes for themselves and society.
I’m not sure why any of what I said here supports the idea that children should only be raised by one parent?
@@ClayArnall what you're sure of has no bearing on the fact that "co-parenting" is statistically proven to be a poor substitute for having parents who are married.
Studies show children of divorce are more likely to have:
- Higher instances of substance abuse;
- Higher instances of teenage sexual activity;
- Lower grades;
- Increased instances of dropping out of school;
- Decreased self-esteem;
- Fewer friends;
- Increased instances of committing a crime.
I agree. Having a healthy marriage is the best way for children to thrive. However, I maintain that a functional co-parenting relationship is better than a dis functional marriage.
I did a video about parenting u might enjoy
Thank you for this video!
BoldyGrow is a cool channel about polyamory. Lots of info. Very clear descriptions/definitions.
Alok Vaid-Menon has some great content on romanticism and friendship.
Generally I really like Clays videos, but this one was a miss for me... I think there were some false interpretations of where relationship norms came from, it's not religion, it's way back. People chose to be monogamous before Christianity, partnering up was a good decision for survival. Nowadays, it's of course no so much about survival, but more about prosperity. Waiting to have a intimate relationship is also not necessarily a religious thing, it's practical as there are serious consequences, that's especially true before modern contraception. Even now, I would say it's practical to wait as no contraception is 100% effective and there are also phycological effects of these relationships. I think it is probably the base for this religious norm to appear, religious norms couldn't come out of nowhere, there is usually a good reason, but I agree it's important to question. I am saying this as someone who doesn't support religious establishment, but still has some sort of faith that doesn't fit into a specific box.
Curious where you’re getting your stats about humans being monogamous before Christianity? I think in general that may not be true. In fact, in the past it seems men were not expected to be monogamous, but women were for lineage reasons. Even in the Old Testament, people like king Solomon had hundreds of wives. If you go way back, it’s actually believed that in many tribes, women would have sex with multiple men so that nobody really knew who the father was, and thus multiple men would look out for her and her children. This is true for most species not just humans.
A very complete explanation. I must agree that there seems to be a big social control and judgement on this indeed. Sorry for the victims of that. However in a way I understand the idea of commitment in the context of having kids and a previous society in which the man was seen as sole provider. I think in that time the risk of seperation was a lot higher. Now our society is changing, and also the ideas of whether everyone should have kids are changing, obviously the form in which relationships take place, will change as well. I really liked how you described the purity of having a best friend btw. I think this is the ideal relationship in life, as you both know in this context, that you are in it out of free will haha.
So I am curious what kind of sollutions you see for our culture and society on the topic of romantic relationships.
Do you think INFJs or INFPs are more likely to want to get off the escalator?
Hi Clay! Interesting video. Lately I have also been thinking about cultural norms but more in a context of the government forms. It appears to me that in Western culture democracy is almost treated as something holy and any discussion doubting the its superiority in current times is marginalized or even ridiculed (and here I don't mean democracy vs autocracy - there are many other forms). Any thoughts on this topics?
Love your insights and thoughts as most are mine too, also I wonder how many INFJs enjoyed watching Dexter. 😂
If you don't want to be in the stable super traditional relationship, just say no. Why do you make everything so complicated?
Personally, I have much more simple and straightforward view on the romantic relationships. I'm not so sentimental and concentrated on them at all.
For me, my life mission is the main goal. Family is important yet just purely additional, secondary part. In my opinion, getting in relationship is an automatical process and you shouldn't care SO MUCH about it.
But maybe I don't understand you. I'm just a Te-aux user.
I wouldn't say is just culture, but as you said it's religions, because Islam also has the same opinion on a relationship between a man and a woman that it should only be under the embrella of marriage.
Islam and Christianity are really just two sides of the same coin in my opinion.
@@ClayArnall We as Muslims have in Coran that Christianity came from the same and only God ''Allah'', it is the same guidings, the same principles, it is just different messengers of God for different ages. We believe that Jesus is also messenger of God. Just to Add 🤷💁
@@ClayArnall But we Also believe that Christianity has has been corrupted, changed by paps kings etc.
@@elmehdisaniss2731 Isn't that default? Everybody belief system believes that they are right, and that all the others have been corrupted.
@@ClayArnall No, Christians doesn't believe even that the Coran is a book of God and that Mohamed is a prophet of God like the Muslim does toward the Christians book and Jesus.
Thank you!
Please tell me you didn't "stumble" upon this topic after breaking up with your partner over commitment issues. That would give it a lot more merit.
The purest relationship= Friendship. I said this very same thing to a newly found friend a few months back when he decided he wanted to be more than friends and I, however, did not. The one thing about friends is, if both are mature and allow each other to just be, these relationships last a life time. Total acceptance of who they are and what they do. And I like to think that when pair bonding with someone, these same "rules" should apply. That's funny! Using the word "rules" to define a relationship with no rules. lol. Anyway. I think our culture is starting to get away from the traditional "expectations" of relationships which was basically slavery, or being owned by your partner. These are the reasons many relationships don't last, and once women started entering the workforce and no longer bound to a marriage because of the inability to support oneself is when divorce started to become a kind of norm to date. But even more so, many people are choosing not to marry at all. But the issue with pair bonding is in some states common law marriage will still be like you got married. These are things I ponder.
For myself, I like being in a relationship but only if it is the right one. And I love being with someone whom is familiar and who gets me and who I can laugh with and enjoy the many places I plan to go and see. In the end, that person will be my best friend more so than just a lover, because I def want them to be there because they choose and not because its expected.
After having been with someone for a long time and its a healthy relationship, these are the things that create a good life, not to mention a bond unlike any other.
You will know older, when you need "home" person. 65 and health concerns needing a" home friend."To help provide comfort. So wait until 50. Young is so fussy we are irritating. Infj' s are irritating like me.
Marry an older woman like me! WE ARE IRRITATING.
What if your home person dies before you? So it’s a search for someone who will outlive you?!?!? Hahaha
Have your tried house church?
think thank thunk...
What if you decide that you don't care about any of this. Problem solved. You're welcome from an ENTP
The word expectation is used too many times in this video..
Why would you think that a romantic relationship is an expectation but friends aren't? You are also "expected" to have friends...
You are also "expected" to get on with your family...
If you are spending time with someone cause your expected to, I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're not being honest and real with yourself
I am driven inwardly, I just do whatever the heck I want.
did you watch the video? I talk about friends in here. Maybe you didn't make it to that part. But yeah, if you don't get what I'm saying here, then feel free to ignore it! This is made for the people that are bothered by this, of which there are many.
@@ClayArnall the expectations of society?
You can also ignore them..
@@ClayArnall You exposed a lot of ideas that I disagree with.. So I would like to talk :)
@@ClayArnall why are you running away from the confrontation?
I find them useful
@@ClayArnall I don't understand, but I would like to know where you're coming from...
It feels to me you would need to break out of that molde that stucks you.
11:00
Amazing how far people will go to rationalize their fear of commitment :))
If you knew me at all, you would know that I am happily committed to somebody. The difference is I specifically chose it and define it myself rather than accept an arbitrary definition by society. There is a nuanced difference there that falls on def ears to many. Feel free to move along if this doesn't resonate with you.
Amazing how far people go to rationalize that commitment/longevity is the measurement of success of a relationship.