Absolutely love your analysis so much. Too many Zelda theorists take the English localization at face value and extrapolate off of incomplete information or misleading word choices, or miss important connections entirely because the words were translated differently in different games. (Not to mention the Buddhist context the series loves using, especially post-Skyward Sword.)
I'm very excited that we're delving into the powers of good and light at last ❤ your videos are the best among very few that make the LOZ universe all the more deep and vast, I look forward to the next video man👏👍
We are definitely going down that route ^^ Truly, thank you so much! The video that continues from this one will be much longer and include a bunch of new terms from TotK as well!
Thank you very much! I've been thinking that I spend way too much time on editing and over-analysing even the small edits, so I'm happy that you liked it!
Very interesting bit of knowledge about the translation. As a French player, i had no idea that our version of Demise is, in a way, closer to the original phrasing in Japanese. Skyward Sword refers to him as the "Avatar du néant", which could be translated in English as "Embodiment / vessel of nothingness" or something like that. The French word "néant" isn't simply a synonym for "void" or "nothingness" though, as it also carries an even stronger idea implying total obliteration of existence, something even "more empty" that a simple void.
In Spanish something similar happens, demise has no name and is just referred by the title "the harbinger of death" as his ultimate goal is to bring death to the creation of the goddesses.
Same goes to the German Version, in there Demise is called "Todbringer" which translates into Deathbringer/Bringer of Death. Seeing the other Translations here and even comparing other translations to the Japanese, it kinda proofs to me that the English Translation in these cases might be the most which are changed by leaving out important Details.
It’s amazing just how much deeper these recent Zelda games become the more you understand Buddhism and Japanese thematics. It’s a shame they’re so difficult to translate. I had always interpreted BotW as a Buddhist piece, but seeing how deeply entrenched it is in SS and TotK’s concept of good and evil adds so much to stories that others feel are generic or thin respectively. Zelda has always survived more on thematics than strong narrative beats, and these games are no exception. Thank you for sharing this perspective and helping to clarify some of the intention of these games
It definitely feels like to me that BotW has more Buddhist inspired themes like the monks in the shrines and the power of malice. Whereas TotK contains more themes related to Shinto like the zen garden design found on Zonai architecture, Gloom as kegare and an embodiment that corrupts Kami and nature, among much more. With that said the two are often intertwined and there are very often other influences from other cultures as well.
Demise is completely destroyed, but his evil influence remains as monsters will continue to plague the land of Hyrule, and there will be beings that become enamored by evil to become greater threats such as Vaati, until eventually Ganondorf succeeds Demise as the next Demon King in Ocarina of Time.
Is it Demise's influence which remains though? For all we know Demise may have just been a current personification of shuen during the Era of Hylia with prior demonic fiends having once hold the title of Demon King before his eventual arrival on the surface world who themselves embodied the very same negative feelings while the Demon Tribe remained hidden underneath the earth. Just as Vaati, Ganondorf and Malladus have all succeeded one another as Bringers of Demise across the ages so could the titular character himself have succeeded previous demons who shared his then role as the living personification of shuen.
From my and others research on discord of the Japanese text I think I can safely say that Demise is completely gone, one source of evil and representative of negative thoughts and emotions disappeared completely but he left behind a legacy and power vaccum. In his final words Saṃsāra, negative emotions (which just like positive emotions anyone can emanate) and the state of demons was described which explains reality, that there will be more battles between good and evil in the future, there will be successor demon kings who just like Demise represents negative emotions and thoughts and echo his actions and words. In Spirit tracks there is Malladus while in most of the games in the series there is Ganondorf, in TP Ganon's final words resemble Demise's, describing how the battles between light and darkness won't easily end with the death or eradication of a demon king. I don't think Ganondorf is a reincarnation of Demise due to the fate of Demise's thoughts(decaying inside the Master sword, destroyed by a Triforce wish in the present era) but I do think there is a form of incarnation/manifestation going on as part of Saṃsāra's nature. Even if the state of a being prevents reincarnation of the being itself incarnation/manifestation can still occur. Saṃsāra, the cursed state of demons and beings emanating positive or negative emotions is also present in other worlds so personally I believe it's just part of the existence of a world and the laws required to keep a world functioning that causes demons to be in a cursed state and causes non-demons with powerful negative emotions to become demons, no matter what happens during creation a world with living beings will always have beings that can have positive and negative emotions.
I have not read all of the original Japanese texts, only some critical sections, but I’ve been saying similar to this for years. Most fans seem to look at Ganon (and Malladus) as a direct reincarnation of Demise, rather than a manifestation of hatred- which has a completely different set of rules. That’s why you see so much confusion in the fandom over Malladus having likely existed before the death of Ganon, or the recent confusion regarding TotK Ganon, because people seem to think the cycle of the Demon King is of spiritual reincarnation instead of hatred manifest.
I really do wish we'd get a Skyward Sword VR, that's a full streamlined reimagining of the events. People just don't understand the plot because it taxes too much of their attention span. To avoid being front-loaded like Twilight Princess, the game goes on and on "acquainting" the player with the world, with the cheap gimmick of "caring about this world and its people" as if you couldn't just get the gist in a single sentence. People need this repeated escapist narrative in every game, because they just can't feel the tragedy if people they DON'T PERSONALLY KNOW have existential treats. But the only way to "get to know" game characters is have these stupid pumpkin gathering missions and talking to Mogmas. Then they hate The Imprisoned and the TotK cutscenes anyway. What I want from SSVR is more of this involved Rashomon kind of parallel experience that really highlights how the story is told in reverse order, and Demise is imprisoned to BE the imprisoned. You're not ACHIEVING a future goal, you're doing the legwork of preserving what you DID and WILL DO, so that this victory in the battle doesn't go to waste. It's meant to be the humble existence, not the moment of glory. Gandahar is a great film to explore the idea, but just make that in Skyward Sword.
@@WindMageMaster Yeah. Imo the other two Buddhist poisons(greed and delusion/ignorance) are also what Ganondorf and Malladus are manifestations of. Some fans also have these misconceptions that got spread around (because of some misinterpretations of Ganondorf's character and dialogue in TWW and misinterpretations of Demise's character and final words) that paint Ganondorf as an innocent victim and puppet of the curse and Demise and treats the curse as something sentient that makes someone evil or makes them be born with a seperate evil mind (instead of treating the curse as something a mind with negative emotions desires and thoughts inflicts upon themselves, the villains often gets more attempts at reaching their goals(which they can either fail or succeed at), get revenge and more time to do the things they enjoy doing or grow more powerful). Another misconception is that Demise literally made those with the hero's soul(that appears in the knight's family) and Hylia's blood reincarnate when it's really the other way around(though a bit unclear on how exactly reincarnation works here as there is evidence that Gramps in ALBW is another living hero who once wielded the Master sword, one thing I've heard that could explain some things about reincarnation is the torch/candle metaphor, I think Aaron also talked about an explanation in one of his videos but I can't remember what it was) plus it doesn't make much sense for the demon king to create an eternal obstacle to the demons that keeps stopping them.
@@carljohansson3512 Right. Ganondorf’s speech in the Wind Waker is entirely selfish. He’s self reflecting on his motivations and how HE was surrounded by death. When he becomes king of Hyrule in OoT, he keeps his people in the exact same conditions- and his wish to the Triforce in Wind Waker is “give Hyrule to me!!!” … it was never about helping his people, it was only about himself. The reason Ganondorf is more sympathetic in Wind Waker is because he’s had a massive fall from grace- twice. At that point, he’s grasping at straws and losing his purpose. He’s a worn out & tired evil, not one that is conflicted by “good in his heart” as many fans put it. As for Link, yeah, it’s possible the spirit of the hero causes the births, and hence, they are all born of the same spirit… rather than the spirit itself reincarnating. The spirit “lighting a torch” as you said, was a good way to put it. That’s what I lean towards, but if it is direct reincarnation, it wouldn’t shatter my view or anything… as they’re all connected to the spirit of the hero, regardless of birth method.
A karma/manifestation system is so interesting. The idea that your past lives retain karma and how the environment influences or gets influenced by your positive and negative emotions at least in some part of my mind in a spiritual sense makes complete sense especially when some people who have only done good have bad things happened to them. Like in a previous life they might've done negative actions but once reincarnated that karma from before is still retained despite the fact they took a different path that lead them to being different than before. So in this case Link and Zelda are always so pure because the actions they've done in their previous lives were so positive that they've retained that karma in a self sustaining cycle.
A karma/manifestation system is so interesting. The idea that your past lives retain karma and how the environment influences or gets influenced by your positive and negative emotions at least in some part of my mind in a spiritual sense makes complete sense especially when some people who have only done good have bad things happened to them. Like in a previous life they might've done negative actions but once reincarnated that karma from before is still retained despite the fact they took a different path that lead them to being different than before. So in this case Link and Zelda are always so pure because the actions they've done in their previous lives were so positive that they've retained that karma in a self sustaining cycle.
A bit inconsistent when it comes to Link as the series has a track record of allowing him to be quite mischievous by commiting all sorts of trouble ranging from harming cattle like cuccos and Ordon goats, to outright stealing items from item shops and even harming NPCs as seen in the Wild duology. For such a "pure-hearted" character Link's misdeeds across the timeline give little incentive to allow him to constantly reincarnate as a noble Hero.
@@javiervasquez625 They probably change Link's Awakening's timeline placement from during the events of Zelda 2 to after LttP because Link can be a little bit of a pervert in Awakening, with him looking up Marin's dress and him having the option to try and look under the water near the mermaid, who lost her top in the Japanese version and calls you a pervert if you try looking there. Link needed a pure heart to be chosen by the former King's spell.
I love Mistborn! The Ruin reveal at the end of the Well of Ascension was unforgettable, but I won't get into details and spoil it too much for anyone reading this comment.
A goshdiddilydang good analysis. I would honestly like to see what you would have to say exactly about his speech, even if it's scrutinizing over every last detail, I feel like it would be interesting. With his name essentially being a title, couldn't it be held by anyone of such a level? [Edit]- 消滅 A fitting choice!
It feels like DEMISE is a Metaphysical Concept that manifest itself into a "Shadow" that looks likes the DEMISE we fight. So, a being who has that Title would simply be a Manifestation of DEMISE. A fragment of them.
Thank you so very much! I have covered several parts of Demise's speech in older videos, but I could definitely dedicate an entire video to it in the future, I can already imagine that it would be a very lengthy topic. Honestly, it must have been so challenging for the official English translators to find a way to translate and concise all the details down to fit inside the text boxes. I believe it could be held by another being, yes! There could absolutely be another entity that is considered as such in a future Zelda title - I think that would be incredible!
I believe it's important to discuss multiple translations and interpretations if possible when analysing the Japanese. The consideration of context, individual interpretation, and the underlying meanings of specific words is crucial, as they all contribute to the shape of the overall essence and message that the text is trying to deliver and ignoring one of the three can affect that.
Wow! I remember you talking about Demise's Japanese title before, but I had no idea the meaning was so complex. When you break it down, something about it reminds me of the Beast of the Apocalypse, a being meant to signify the end of all earthly things, and I personally wish the English translation team was a little more original in conveying the meaning of Shueen (maybe something like the Harbinger of Finality or something). Also, because of your translation of the Japanese title of the Master Sword, I now know what Hunter Knight Tsurugi's name from Ultraman Mebius means, so that's cool!
I like Harbinger of Finality, a lot actually! It fits very well for what it feels like Demise was originally intended to represent and it also has that extra layer of depth, in my opinion. I also think you might on to something about how Demise might be a being meant to signify the end of all earthly things. Demise shares many traits akin to that of a traditional Japanese demon. One of the ways in which an entity would become one is through neglect and not being worshipped. Essentially a Japanese god (kami) can become a demon if neglected. Just some food for thought ^^ That's so awesome to hear that my videos are helping you find new ways to appreciate other things, thank you!
@@QuestWithAaron I've heard about neglected kami becoming oni before (probably on your channel). In my opinion, that's one of the most interesting aspects of Japanese mythology. I wonder how that factors into Demise's story. Maybe people's disdain for death and natural conclusion drove him to vengeance. Definitely something I will think about.
@@Zilla1954 Not to mention that could also apply to the mysterious "Horned Statue" and "Bargainer Statues" from the Wild duology who, like Demise, might at one point have carried the title of _Kami_ only for negative feelings and emotions to have affected/corrupted them to the point of been either sealed away by the powers that be (Hylia) like the Horned Statue or simply been "demoted" into delivering the souls of the dead into the Afterlife like the Bargainer Statues. This possibility may just open a new can of worms as to the nature of Demons in the mythology of The Legend of Zelda.
者 is used everywhere in Japanese, for example... 若者 (wakamono) meaning "young person", 作者 (sakusha) meaning "author", 研究者 (kenkyuusha) meaning "researcher" and so on. Some words might also carry connotations or implications of being male through cultural or individual interpretations, but the character generally carries a more gender-neutral sense
it is, a blade that cleanses negative energy whether physical or spiritual is just amazing. I bet being next to it helps rid of negative emotions which might also explain why Link is able to maintain such a level of composure alongside his courage. His spirituality is always headstrong cause his negative emotions are well checked by such positive emotion and thoughts.
@@AdventVFX And yet the sword was completley shattered by Ganondorf's "Miasma" rising the question as to wether the Light "battery" within the Evil-cleansing sword had already run out and needed to be replaced with Zelda's "Sacred Power" (the Triforce?). Also it's interesting you mentioned Link been inherently pure and heroic as that brings up the subject of _Dark Link_ and wether he's a physical manifestation of his natural evil which detached from his spirit as a reaction to the Master Sword's inherent ability to purge evil.
@@javiervasquez625 You need to consider that Miasma is not just born from evil energy, it is also a physical substance that acts pretty much as acid, everywhere you look, Hyrule is filled with decayed weapons because Miasma literally corrodes everything, even in the Final Phase every weapon that gets in contact with his Miasma Projectiles gets destroyed instantly, even the bones of his own Demons that you use as weapons break against him, every shield, even the Allmighty Hylian Shield, gets so fragile that they break on the next hit. Basically the reason the Master Sword broke is Because of Gloom/Miasma-Corrosion, it is a typical chemical reaction that happens to it since the Master Sword is still being influenced by Physics, it can be sharpened with heat and hammers in A Link to the Past and A Link between Worlds, it can recieve Quirks like in Botw when Link faced a bunch of Godlike spider tanks. It was only a matter of Time when it broke, and it broke from Corrosion, the best way to prevent a Weapon to decay is using "pure" metals or mix them into "pure" alloys, Stainless steel for example is Steel that cannot rust because of the special Alloy. Gold cannot rust at all and is even immune to be decomposed by almost all types of Acid. And Zelda basically gave the Master Sword a more purified blade to prevent Gloom Corrosion from happening again.
I was waiting for a new video, and it’s finally here! As soon as it arrived, I watched it immediately! Not only are they always interesting, but they show just how deep the series truly is. I can't wait to see what comes next!
With every video I make I keep discovering new terms and parts of the Japanese text that keep adding to the list of "to make videos", I'm really excited to bring you the next one - there's a lot of stuff in it that I haven't covered before at all ^^
@@QuestWithAaron I’m really looking forward to it. I play the game in a language other than English, which has a translation closer to the Japanese. But still, so much nuance and depth get lost. Thanks to your videos, everything makes so much more sense and seems clearer. Plus, it helps expand my knowledge of Japanese (religious) culture. It’s always a pleasure, and I can’t wait to see what’s next. Will it be about the Master Sword and its properties?
It really is eternal. Hyrule’s cycle of life and death, ruin and renewal, good and evil, it’ll never end because this isn’t a curse to be broken, it is the lingering will of this big bastard that remains so long as it is unfulfilled, and it can never be fulfilled because it’d be the end of everything. I forget the term, but something used in botw was this concept of conceit and delusion and fixation in the malice of Ganon. It’s because he (or perhaps rather just the spiritual will he is infected by) is like trying to pour yourself a drink into a cup with a hole in the bottom. Cursed with insatiable desire, as in it literally cannot be satiated and thus cannot ever go away. And on an extra gloomy note, it doesn’t matter how powerful the forces of good become. It always comes crashing down. Advanced societies come and go in the Zelda universe and they never last, even when they sometimes stick around for eons. They always get brought low by the onnen plaguing Hyrule since the start. But hey, on the plus side it means we’ll never run out of Zelda games!
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is already *dead* and what keeps evil from perishing for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new characters filled with inner evil and greed to cause more conflicts and tragedies to befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of reality. Wether it is a minish student getting "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled lust for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread his evil (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new malicious being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe. All that said you forgot a point from one of Aaron's prior videos where he addresses the _counterbalance_ to shoen with the many gods, goddesses and the Light and Order which they bring to cleanse the world from shoen and so restore balance as it was before its natural spread. At the moment i can't remember which video it was where he translates texts pertaining to the role the many gods fulfill within the established Lore but i could search it up if you like to understand the other side of the thematic conflict portrayed in the series. While i myself can't agree with the notion that The Legend of Zelda won't last "forever" i can assure that if Miyamoto or Aonuma feel the main storyline has reached a definitive end they'll reboot the franchise from scratch with a new timeline detached from the current one.
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is already *dead* and what keeps evil from perishing for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new characters filled with inner evil and greed to cause more conflicts and tragedies to befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of reality. Wether it is a minish student getting "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled lust for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread his evil (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new malicious being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe.
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is completley *dead* and what keeps evil from been vanquished for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new characters filled with evil and greed to cause more conflicts to befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of reality. Wether it is a minish student been "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled lust for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread his evil (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new malicious being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe. All that said you forgot a point from one of Aaron's prior videos where he addresses the _counterbalance_ to shoen with the many gods, goddesses and the Light and Order which they bring to cleanse the world from shoen and so restore balance as it was before its natural spread. At the moment i can't remember which video it was where he translates texts pertaining to the role the many gods fulfill within the established Lore but i could search it up if you like to understand the other side of the thematic conflict portrayed in the series. While i myself can't agree with the notion that The Legend of Zelda won't last "forever" i can assure that if Miyamoto or Aonuma feel the main storyline has reached a definitive end they'll reboot the franchise from scratch with a new timeline detached from the current one.
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is completley *dead* and what keeps evil from been vanquished for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new characters filled with evil and greed to cause more conflicts to befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of reality. Wether it is a minish student been "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled lust for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread his evil (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new malicious being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe.
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is completley *dead* and what keeps evil from been vanishing for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new villains filled with evil and greed befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of the Zelda universe. Wether it is a minish student "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled thirst for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread evil across the world (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe. All that said you forgot a point from one of Aaron's prior videos where he addresses the _counterbalance_ to shoen with the many gods, goddesses and the Light and Order which they bring to cleanse the world from shoen and so restore balance as it was before its natural spread. At the moment i can't remember which video it was where he translates texts pertaining to the role the many gods fulfill within the established Lore but i could search it up if you like to understand the other side of the thematic conflict portrayed in the series. While i myself can't agree with the notion that The Legend of Zelda won't last "forever" i can assure that if Miyamoto or Aonuma feel the main storyline has reached a definitive end they'll reboot the franchise from scratch with a new timeline detached from the current one.
It doesn't matter because Nintendo will retcon/ignore it in some future game. :) (pssst, there's no "timeline" to the extent that it is incredibly insubstantial/weak/flimsy)
Doubt it unless Aonuma wants to admit to the entire world they make games to make money with no interest in adding substance to their action-adventure fantasy game.
Absolutely love your analysis so much. Too many Zelda theorists take the English localization at face value and extrapolate off of incomplete information or misleading word choices, or miss important connections entirely because the words were translated differently in different games. (Not to mention the Buddhist context the series loves using, especially post-Skyward Sword.)
Wholeheartedly, thank you for this video!
I'm very excited that we're delving into the powers of good and light at last ❤ your videos are the best among very few that make the LOZ universe all the more deep and vast, I look forward to the next video man👏👍
We are definitely going down that route ^^ Truly, thank you so much! The video that continues from this one will be much longer and include a bunch of new terms from TotK as well!
Dude, not only are your videos highly interesting and help to deepen the world of The Legend of Zelda, your editing is fire as well!
Thank you very much! I've been thinking that I spend way too much time on editing and over-analysing even the small edits, so I'm happy that you liked it!
Very interesting bit of knowledge about the translation. As a French player, i had no idea that our version of Demise is, in a way, closer to the original phrasing in Japanese. Skyward Sword refers to him as the "Avatar du néant", which could be translated in English as "Embodiment / vessel of nothingness" or something like that. The French word "néant" isn't simply a synonym for "void" or "nothingness" though, as it also carries an even stronger idea implying total obliteration of existence, something even "more empty" that a simple void.
Like oblivion?
@@mmyr8ado.360 Could be a closer word, yes, even if not entirely similar in terms of meaning.
In Spanish something similar happens, demise has no name and is just referred by the title "the harbinger of death" as his ultimate goal is to bring death to the creation of the goddesses.
Same goes to the German Version, in there Demise is called "Todbringer" which translates into Deathbringer/Bringer of Death.
Seeing the other Translations here and even comparing other translations to the Japanese, it kinda proofs to me that the English Translation in these cases might be the most which are changed by leaving out important Details.
I absolutely love that translation, it has a really cool impact!
It’s amazing just how much deeper these recent Zelda games become the more you understand Buddhism and Japanese thematics. It’s a shame they’re so difficult to translate. I had always interpreted BotW as a Buddhist piece, but seeing how deeply entrenched it is in SS and TotK’s concept of good and evil adds so much to stories that others feel are generic or thin respectively. Zelda has always survived more on thematics than strong narrative beats, and these games are no exception. Thank you for sharing this perspective and helping to clarify some of the intention of these games
It definitely feels like to me that BotW has more Buddhist inspired themes like the monks in the shrines and the power of malice. Whereas TotK contains more themes related to Shinto like the zen garden design found on Zonai architecture, Gloom as kegare and an embodiment that corrupts Kami and nature, among much more. With that said the two are often intertwined and there are very often other influences from other cultures as well.
That's why I really like the name they gave demise in the official Spanish translation "the herald of death"
"El heraldo de la muerte"
Your translations actually make the weirder parts of the English translations make more sense!
Interesting note, in German, Demise's Japanese name is more accurately translated as Todbringer (Bringer of Death).
Demise is completely destroyed, but his evil influence remains as monsters will continue to plague the land of Hyrule, and there will be beings that become enamored by evil to become greater threats such as Vaati, until eventually Ganondorf succeeds Demise as the next Demon King in Ocarina of Time.
Is it Demise's influence which remains though? For all we know Demise may have just been a current personification of shuen during the Era of Hylia with prior demonic fiends having once hold the title of Demon King before his eventual arrival on the surface world who themselves embodied the very same negative feelings while the Demon Tribe remained hidden underneath the earth. Just as Vaati, Ganondorf and Malladus have all succeeded one another as Bringers of Demise across the ages so could the titular character himself have succeeded previous demons who shared his then role as the living personification of shuen.
12:56 i guess this is what they translate as "blade of evil's bane"
in german demise is todbringer which means bringer of death
From my and others research on discord of the Japanese text I think I can safely say that Demise is completely gone, one source of evil and representative of negative thoughts and emotions disappeared completely but he left behind a legacy and power vaccum. In his final words Saṃsāra, negative emotions (which just like positive emotions anyone can emanate) and the state of demons was described which explains reality, that there will be more battles between good and evil in the future, there will be successor demon kings who just like Demise represents negative emotions and thoughts and echo his actions and words. In Spirit tracks there is Malladus while in most of the games in the series there is Ganondorf, in TP Ganon's final words resemble Demise's, describing how the battles between light and darkness won't easily end with the death or eradication of a demon king.
I don't think Ganondorf is a reincarnation of Demise due to the fate of Demise's thoughts(decaying inside the Master sword, destroyed by a Triforce wish in the present era) but I do think there is a form of incarnation/manifestation going on as part of Saṃsāra's nature. Even if the state of a being prevents reincarnation of the being itself incarnation/manifestation can still occur.
Saṃsāra, the cursed state of demons and beings emanating positive or negative emotions is also present in other worlds so personally I believe it's just part of the existence of a world and the laws required to keep a world functioning that causes demons to be in a cursed state and causes non-demons with powerful negative emotions to become demons, no matter what happens during creation a world with living beings will always have beings that can have positive and negative emotions.
I have not read all of the original Japanese texts, only some critical sections, but I’ve been saying similar to this for years. Most fans seem to look at Ganon (and Malladus) as a direct reincarnation of Demise, rather than a manifestation of hatred- which has a completely different set of rules. That’s why you see so much confusion in the fandom over Malladus having likely existed before the death of Ganon, or the recent confusion regarding TotK Ganon, because people seem to think the cycle of the Demon King is of spiritual reincarnation instead of hatred manifest.
I really do wish we'd get a Skyward Sword VR, that's a full streamlined reimagining of the events. People just don't understand the plot because it taxes too much of their attention span. To avoid being front-loaded like Twilight Princess, the game goes on and on "acquainting" the player with the world, with the cheap gimmick of "caring about this world and its people" as if you couldn't just get the gist in a single sentence.
People need this repeated escapist narrative in every game, because they just can't feel the tragedy if people they DON'T PERSONALLY KNOW have existential treats. But the only way to "get to know" game characters is have these stupid pumpkin gathering missions and talking to Mogmas. Then they hate The Imprisoned and the TotK cutscenes anyway.
What I want from SSVR is more of this involved Rashomon kind of parallel experience that really highlights how the story is told in reverse order, and Demise is imprisoned to BE the imprisoned. You're not ACHIEVING a future goal, you're doing the legwork of preserving what you DID and WILL DO, so that this victory in the battle doesn't go to waste. It's meant to be the humble existence, not the moment of glory.
Gandahar is a great film to explore the idea, but just make that in Skyward Sword.
@@WindMageMaster Yeah. Imo the other two Buddhist poisons(greed and delusion/ignorance) are also what Ganondorf and Malladus are manifestations of.
Some fans also have these misconceptions that got spread around (because of some misinterpretations of Ganondorf's character and dialogue in TWW and misinterpretations of Demise's character and final words) that paint Ganondorf as an innocent victim and puppet of the curse and Demise and treats the curse as something sentient that makes someone evil or makes them be born with a seperate evil mind (instead of treating the curse as something a mind with negative emotions desires and thoughts inflicts upon themselves, the villains often gets more attempts at reaching their goals(which they can either fail or succeed at), get revenge and more time to do the things they enjoy doing or grow more powerful).
Another misconception is that Demise literally made those with the hero's soul(that appears in the knight's family) and Hylia's blood reincarnate when it's really the other way around(though a bit unclear on how exactly reincarnation works here as there is evidence that Gramps in ALBW is another living hero who once wielded the Master sword, one thing I've heard that could explain some things about reincarnation is the torch/candle metaphor, I think Aaron also talked about an explanation in one of his videos but I can't remember what it was) plus it doesn't make much sense for the demon king to create an eternal obstacle to the demons that keeps stopping them.
@@carljohansson3512 Right. Ganondorf’s speech in the Wind Waker is entirely selfish. He’s self reflecting on his motivations and how HE was surrounded by death. When he becomes king of Hyrule in OoT, he keeps his people in the exact same conditions- and his wish to the Triforce in Wind Waker is “give Hyrule to me!!!” … it was never about helping his people, it was only about himself. The reason Ganondorf is more sympathetic in Wind Waker is because he’s had a massive fall from grace- twice. At that point, he’s grasping at straws and losing his purpose. He’s a worn out & tired evil, not one that is conflicted by “good in his heart” as many fans put it.
As for Link, yeah, it’s possible the spirit of the hero causes the births, and hence, they are all born of the same spirit… rather than the spirit itself reincarnating. The spirit “lighting a torch” as you said, was a good way to put it. That’s what I lean towards, but if it is direct reincarnation, it wouldn’t shatter my view or anything… as they’re all connected to the spirit of the hero, regardless of birth method.
I'm pretty sure Aonuma said one time that Ganondorf and his constant ressurections is his own thing and Demise was only his predecessor.
you're definitely my favorite for zelda lore/theory videos
Wow! Thank you so much!
4:48 Incarnation of demise, perhaps?
YEEEEESSSS! I've been waiting for a new video! These are just as much Zelda lessons as they are Japanese lessons
Wow! To hear that my videos can be useful and enjoyable as both to you makes me happy - thank you so much!
in German he is called Todbringer (Death bringer)
A karma/manifestation system is so interesting. The idea that your past lives retain karma and how the environment influences or gets influenced by your positive and negative emotions at least in some part of my mind in a spiritual sense makes complete sense especially when some people who have only done good have bad things happened to them. Like in a previous life they might've done negative actions but once reincarnated that karma from before is still retained despite the fact they took a different path that lead them to being different than before. So in this case Link and Zelda are always so pure because the actions they've done in their previous lives were so positive that they've retained that karma in a self sustaining cycle.
Why did you write the same comment twice?
Fascinating video on what happened to Demise at the end.
A karma/manifestation system is so interesting. The idea that your past lives retain karma and how the environment influences or gets influenced by your positive and negative emotions at least in some part of my mind in a spiritual sense makes complete sense especially when some people who have only done good have bad things happened to them. Like in a previous life they might've done negative actions but once reincarnated that karma from before is still retained despite the fact they took a different path that lead them to being different than before. So in this case Link and Zelda are always so pure because the actions they've done in their previous lives were so positive that they've retained that karma in a self sustaining cycle.
A bit inconsistent when it comes to Link as the series has a track record of allowing him to be quite mischievous by commiting all sorts of trouble ranging from harming cattle like cuccos and Ordon goats, to outright stealing items from item shops and even harming NPCs as seen in the Wild duology. For such a "pure-hearted" character Link's misdeeds across the timeline give little incentive to allow him to constantly reincarnate as a noble Hero.
@@javiervasquez625 They probably change Link's Awakening's timeline placement from during the events of Zelda 2 to after LttP because Link can be a little bit of a pervert in Awakening, with him looking up Marin's dress and him having the option to try and look under the water near the mermaid, who lost her top in the Japanese version and calls you a pervert if you try looking there. Link needed a pure heart to be chosen by the former King's spell.
Wow. Just wow. Fantastic work as always Aaron
I really appreciate that, thank you Capt!
👏Excellent as always-thank you for this video!
Brandon Sanderson's Ruin character fills a similar role.
I love Mistborn! The Ruin reveal at the end of the Well of Ascension was unforgettable, but I won't get into details and spoil it too much for anyone reading this comment.
A goshdiddilydang good analysis. I would honestly like to see what you would have to say exactly about his speech, even if it's scrutinizing over every last detail, I feel like it would be interesting.
With his name essentially being a title, couldn't it be held by anyone of such a level?
[Edit]- 消滅
A fitting choice!
It feels like DEMISE is a Metaphysical Concept that manifest itself into a "Shadow" that looks likes the DEMISE we fight. So, a being who has that Title would simply be a Manifestation of DEMISE. A fragment of them.
Thank you so very much! I have covered several parts of Demise's speech in older videos, but I could definitely dedicate an entire video to it in the future, I can already imagine that it would be a very lengthy topic.
Honestly, it must have been so challenging for the official English translators to find a way to translate and concise all the details down to fit inside the text boxes.
I believe it could be held by another being, yes! There could absolutely be another entity that is considered as such in a future Zelda title - I think that would be incredible!
I love how you cover the Japanese content over the iffy translations.
I believe it's important to discuss multiple translations and interpretations if possible when analysing the Japanese. The consideration of context, individual interpretation, and the underlying meanings of specific words is crucial, as they all contribute to the shape of the overall essence and message that the text is trying to deliver and ignoring one of the three can affect that.
Wow! I remember you talking about Demise's Japanese title before, but I had no idea the meaning was so complex. When you break it down, something about it reminds me of the Beast of the Apocalypse, a being meant to signify the end of all earthly things, and I personally wish the English translation team was a little more original in conveying the meaning of Shueen (maybe something like the Harbinger of Finality or something). Also, because of your translation of the Japanese title of the Master Sword, I now know what Hunter Knight Tsurugi's name from Ultraman Mebius means, so that's cool!
I like Harbinger of Finality, a lot actually! It fits very well for what it feels like Demise was originally intended to represent and it also has that extra layer of depth, in my opinion. I also think you might on to something about how Demise might be a being meant to signify the end of all earthly things. Demise shares many traits akin to that of a traditional Japanese demon. One of the ways in which an entity would become one is through neglect and not being worshipped. Essentially a Japanese god (kami) can become a demon if neglected. Just some food for thought ^^
That's so awesome to hear that my videos are helping you find new ways to appreciate other things, thank you!
@@QuestWithAaron I've heard about neglected kami becoming oni before (probably on your channel). In my opinion, that's one of the most interesting aspects of Japanese mythology. I wonder how that factors into Demise's story. Maybe people's disdain for death and natural conclusion drove him to vengeance. Definitely something I will think about.
@@Zilla1954 Not to mention that could also apply to the mysterious "Horned Statue" and "Bargainer Statues" from the Wild duology who, like Demise, might at one point have carried the title of _Kami_ only for negative feelings and emotions to have affected/corrupted them to the point of been either sealed away by the powers that be (Hylia) like the Horned Statue or simply been "demoted" into delivering the souls of the dead into the Afterlife like the Bargainer Statues. This possibility may just open a new can of worms as to the nature of Demons in the mythology of The Legend of Zelda.
@@javiervasquez625 True.
thank youu
No, thank you ^^
I had read somewhere that mono could mean man (I guess that was inaccurate) and thought it would be funny to call him Doom Guy 😂
LOL i mean there is an argument to be made that that wouldn't be INACCURATE per se
者 is used everywhere in Japanese, for example... 若者 (wakamono) meaning "young person", 作者 (sakusha) meaning "author", 研究者 (kenkyuusha) meaning "researcher" and so on. Some words might also carry connotations or implications of being male through cultural or individual interpretations, but the character generally carries a more gender-neutral sense
The master sword is so cool
it is, a blade that cleanses negative energy whether physical or spiritual is just amazing. I bet being next to it helps rid of negative emotions which might also explain why Link is able to maintain such a level of composure alongside his courage. His spirituality is always headstrong cause his negative emotions are well checked by such positive emotion and thoughts.
@@AdventVFX And yet the sword was completley shattered by Ganondorf's "Miasma" rising the question as to wether the Light "battery" within the Evil-cleansing sword had already run out and needed to be replaced with Zelda's "Sacred Power" (the Triforce?).
Also it's interesting you mentioned Link been inherently pure and heroic as that brings up the subject of _Dark Link_ and wether he's a physical manifestation of his natural evil which detached from his spirit as a reaction to the Master Sword's inherent ability to purge evil.
@@javiervasquez625
You need to consider that Miasma is not just born from evil energy, it is also a physical substance that acts pretty much as acid, everywhere you look, Hyrule is filled with decayed weapons because Miasma literally corrodes everything, even in the Final Phase every weapon that gets in contact with his Miasma Projectiles gets destroyed instantly, even the bones of his own Demons that you use as weapons break against him, every shield, even the Allmighty Hylian Shield, gets so fragile that they break on the next hit.
Basically the reason the Master Sword broke is Because of Gloom/Miasma-Corrosion, it is a typical chemical reaction that happens to it since the Master Sword is still being influenced by Physics, it can be sharpened with heat and hammers in A Link to the Past and A Link between Worlds, it can recieve Quirks like in Botw when Link faced a bunch of Godlike spider tanks.
It was only a matter of Time when it broke, and it broke from Corrosion, the best way to prevent a Weapon to decay is using "pure" metals or mix them into "pure" alloys, Stainless steel for example is Steel that cannot rust because of the special Alloy.
Gold cannot rust at all and is even immune to be decomposed by almost all types of Acid.
And Zelda basically gave the Master Sword a more purified blade to prevent Gloom Corrosion from happening again.
Always exciting to see a new post from you!
I was waiting for a new video, and it’s finally here! As soon as it arrived, I watched it immediately!
Not only are they always interesting, but they show just how deep the series truly is.
I can't wait to see what comes next!
With every video I make I keep discovering new terms and parts of the Japanese text that keep adding to the list of "to make videos", I'm really excited to bring you the next one - there's a lot of stuff in it that I haven't covered before at all ^^
@@QuestWithAaron I’m really looking forward to it. I play the game in a language other than English, which has a translation closer to the Japanese. But still, so much nuance and depth get lost. Thanks to your videos, everything makes so much more sense and seems clearer. Plus, it helps expand my knowledge of Japanese (religious) culture.
It’s always a pleasure, and I can’t wait to see what’s next. Will it be about the Master Sword and its properties?
It really is eternal. Hyrule’s cycle of life and death, ruin and renewal, good and evil, it’ll never end because this isn’t a curse to be broken, it is the lingering will of this big bastard that remains so long as it is unfulfilled, and it can never be fulfilled because it’d be the end of everything. I forget the term, but something used in botw was this concept of conceit and delusion and fixation in the malice of Ganon. It’s because he (or perhaps rather just the spiritual will he is infected by) is like trying to pour yourself a drink into a cup with a hole in the bottom. Cursed with insatiable desire, as in it literally cannot be satiated and thus cannot ever go away.
And on an extra gloomy note, it doesn’t matter how powerful the forces of good become. It always comes crashing down. Advanced societies come and go in the Zelda universe and they never last, even when they sometimes stick around for eons. They always get brought low by the onnen plaguing Hyrule since the start.
But hey, on the plus side it means we’ll never run out of Zelda games!
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is already *dead* and what keeps evil from perishing for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new characters filled with inner evil and greed to cause more conflicts and tragedies to befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of reality. Wether it is a minish student getting "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled lust for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread his evil (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new malicious being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe.
All that said you forgot a point from one of Aaron's prior videos where he addresses the _counterbalance_ to shoen with the many gods, goddesses and the Light and Order which they bring to cleanse the world from shoen and so restore balance as it was before its natural spread. At the moment i can't remember which video it was where he translates texts pertaining to the role the many gods fulfill within the established Lore but i could search it up if you like to understand the other side of the thematic conflict portrayed in the series.
While i myself can't agree with the notion that The Legend of Zelda won't last "forever" i can assure that if Miyamoto or Aonuma feel the main storyline has reached a definitive end they'll reboot the franchise from scratch with a new timeline detached from the current one.
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is already *dead* and what keeps evil from perishing for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new characters filled with inner evil and greed to cause more conflicts and tragedies to befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of reality. Wether it is a minish student getting "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled lust for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread his evil (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new malicious being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe.
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is completley *dead* and what keeps evil from been vanquished for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new characters filled with evil and greed to cause more conflicts to befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of reality. Wether it is a minish student been "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled lust for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread his evil (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new malicious being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe.
All that said you forgot a point from one of Aaron's prior videos where he addresses the _counterbalance_ to shoen with the many gods, goddesses and the Light and Order which they bring to cleanse the world from shoen and so restore balance as it was before its natural spread. At the moment i can't remember which video it was where he translates texts pertaining to the role the many gods fulfill within the established Lore but i could search it up if you like to understand the other side of the thematic conflict portrayed in the series.
While i myself can't agree with the notion that The Legend of Zelda won't last "forever" i can assure that if Miyamoto or Aonuma feel the main storyline has reached a definitive end they'll reboot the franchise from scratch with a new timeline detached from the current one.
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is completley *dead* and what keeps evil from been vanquished for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new characters filled with evil and greed to cause more conflicts to befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of reality. Wether it is a minish student been "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled lust for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread his evil (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new malicious being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe.
As confirmed by Aaron this "you know what" is completley *dead* and what keeps evil from been vanishing for good is the ever present shoen within the world _itself_ which ensures new villains filled with evil and greed befall the world indefinetly as a preordained constant within the very fabric of the Zelda universe. Wether it is a minish student "interested in the darkness within men" (Vaati), a male gerudo king with an entitled thirst for conquest and dominance over the entire world (Ganondorf), another "Bringer of Demise" set to spread evil across the world (Malladus) or even an inanimate mask given agency after absorbing the shoen of the many tribesmen who donned it during rituals (Majora) the very natural existence of Evil in the Zelda world will inevitably usher the birth of a new being set to spread shoen as the ever natural cycle which sustains the very existence of the Zelda universe.
All that said you forgot a point from one of Aaron's prior videos where he addresses the _counterbalance_ to shoen with the many gods, goddesses and the Light and Order which they bring to cleanse the world from shoen and so restore balance as it was before its natural spread. At the moment i can't remember which video it was where he translates texts pertaining to the role the many gods fulfill within the established Lore but i could search it up if you like to understand the other side of the thematic conflict portrayed in the series.
While i myself can't agree with the notion that The Legend of Zelda won't last "forever" i can assure that if Miyamoto or Aonuma feel the main storyline has reached a definitive end they'll reboot the franchise from scratch with a new timeline detached from the current one.
Thanks for the Japanese lesson, you should upload more. Zeltik is vegan so he can’t understand Japanese.
How does been vegan prevent Zeltik from learning the japanese language? I'm left confused.
@@javiervasquez625 Just a bit of humour.
@@songoku9348 Can't say i understand the "humor" but okay.
Thank you! I'm definitely trying to increase my upload frequency, I have many videos planned!
It doesn't matter because Nintendo will retcon/ignore it in some future game. :) (pssst, there's no "timeline" to the extent that it is incredibly insubstantial/weak/flimsy)
Doubt it unless Aonuma wants to admit to the entire world they make games to make money with no interest in adding substance to their action-adventure fantasy game.