How NoChanges Massively Changed Classic WoW
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- An analysis of the #nochanges movement, and how it resulted in big changes on how Classic World of Warcraft is played.
BC Article: www.engadget.c...
The Podcast: • Should TBC Be 'Changed...
Leeway demonstration by Perplexity: • Leeway Mechanic | Clas...
Phase 2 death running by Mmrrggll: • This is why BGs got mo...
World pvp footage by Dragonaholic: • How to get Honor Fast!...
World pvp footage by Asmongold TV: • Asmongold Raid Is DEST...
Horde Boat raid footage by Dax: • Horde raids and holds ...
World pvp footage by Zatar: • Why Phase 2 Sucks | Cl...
Southshore raid by Necerium Cloudes: • WoW Classic - Southsho...
World pvp footage by Bajheera: • Bajheera - Rank 1 Arms...
Redridge raid by Half_Finis: • Redridge raid
Spy addon footage by Narros: • Wow Classic world pvp:...
Batching footage by Pavel Xenocidez: • spell batching = cancer
Dog by My Dog Training Spot: • Stop Your Dog's Leash ...
Flamelash footage by LonelyWalks: • Video
Maraudon footage by Dive High: • Level 54 Mage Maraudon...
Old Ragnaros footage by REDDOG. TV: • Molten Core Ragnaros F...
Elitist Jerks C'thun by Tagdoodle: • Elitist Jerks -- Fun w...
Sapphiron footage by AureliasFL: • Forlorn Legacy Present...
The Ree by Mcconnell: • Mcconnell REEE compila...
Maydie: • Maydie's 60 Warrior PV...
Beta PvP by Voidex: • Video
Beta PvP 2 by Potato League All Star: • World of Warcraft Clos...
Beta PvP 3 by Svante Gustafsson: • Hyppe Stress test Wow...
Tarren Mill vs Southshore by Draculla: • Tarren Mill vs. Souths...
World first rag footage by Sameer Sheikh: • World of Warcraft: Gam...
Old onyxia footage by scholdborg: • Nilbog vs Onyxia - EU ...
If you have any suggestions, requests, or just general feedback let me know in the comments or with a message. I try my best to answer or at least read as many as I can.
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"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"
-Soren Johnson
I thought that's been obvious for like 10 or 12 years now when it comes to wow.
Also this:
"Lazy or inexperienced game developers blame players for "ruining" a game with abberant behaviour"
- i.redd.it/ukdusghmghm51.png
and they did
@@KarvidSR True but when it comes to re-releasing the game, the players know what to abuse and the No Changes means to let the harm happen.
@@Dualities This is incorrect. If they valued their time more they wouldn't be spending 2+ hours not including raid log times setting up world buff runs as a guild to save minutes in raid then logging for multiple days to conserve those buffs. The idea of "spending multiple hours to save minutes" is raid optimization not time saving.
i remember watching a streamer during phase 1 showing their guilds complete control over a zone for its mobs and resources. the guild had players on horde and alliance who would make sure no one else was able to farm anything. so it didnt matter if you were horde or alliance, they had someone there ready to kill you so that only they can farm the zone.
Tbh... I joined some people in doing something similar but it was just devilsaur leather farming and we had the areas they spawned on farm on our server basically 24 hours a day. And we could control the price lol
Raids? No changes. Balance? No changes. Wiener size? No changes....oh wait
Each day it gets smaller
@@3x3me_ burned, like Azeroth did during phase 2
@@Antihater44 Exactly. Not funny at all.
So true. It's always so cold...
How would you feel about some faction (race) balance changes in TBC? The key example that keeps coming up is blood elves. I’ve see WillE suggest in his videos that blood elves are going to be a real issue come TBC classic. Arcane Torrent, seal of blood, general horde “bias” already in pvp. What’s your take on minor balance changes for spells like arcane torrent etc?
Wanted to share my experience that made me quit. I started classic a little late because of military training. Picked it up and finally got to relive playing a classic hunter. Questing was awesome and not too slow (what I thought). I couldn't run many dungeons like I enjoy because no one wanted to take a hunter because mage, lock, priest and warrior were pretty much the only thing people wanted. I hit level 48 the day before phase 2 dropped. My life became a living hell. No one would take me in dungeon groups and I couldn't do any quests for more than 2 minutes without being spam ganked by 60s. I was stuck at 48 for 3 weeks IRL. And it made me hate everything about the game. I couldn't do anything or go anywhere. So it ultimately made me quit.
I got to 52 and phase 2 hit. I had the same experience in game and just decided to quit
Level 48 "Age of Consent" thing is my candidate for absolute worst thing in Classic. Max level players griefing people who have no way to fight back is already a massive potential problem, but Blizzard decided gankers should actually be REWARDED for ruining other people's game experience.
To be clear, world PvP in general (even with occasional corpse camping and other dirty tactics) would be fine. Even occasionally killing couple grey players for lulz would be fine.
Problem is that max level players are rewarded for turning level 48-59 players into Honor Point Pinatas.
@@Xazamas 2 years later lol. thanks for the reply. i like the usage of "honor point pinatas"
Thank you for your service!
Transfer to pve realm.
Problem solved
Props for giving credit in the description. That actually does take some extra time and love. Gj
Always! Thank you for watching dude
Do you Remember kids?
Back in the days, while Phase 1 everyone was still leveling and experience the Game...
Good Ol' days.
Agreed, they went way to fast with the phases. Half my friends werent even near lvl 50 and blizz just moved on, probably in fear of losing hardcore streamers who would get bored..
i was playing literally 12-14 hours a day 7 days a week and didnt hit 60 for like 2 or 3 weeks.
@@artifact1711 The leveling experienced was ruined by the Scarlet Monastery Farm stuff everyone was doing the first couple weeks.
Phase 1 leveling was the best part of Classic. They should re-release Classic so I can experience it agane.
@@Williaem00 I didnt do scarlet monastery runs on purpose, because it would ruin the experience
You bring out some very very good points and alternative ways to do certain things, 10/10 would back up
I appreciate that. Stemmed from a discussion with Josh, Ayle, WillE, North, Defcamp & Melderon so they share credit. We're all super passionate about it
@@madseasonshow I think problem is, you can see those issues now. Would you see them before? Probably not. But yeah it would be nice if they took notes for TBC release.
"I don't know, do you remember Ironforge becoming a Horde city back then? That's a pretty big change to me." Had me rolling the way he said it.
The only thing that can't ever change about Classic is that you make videos about it :)
Thank you
Hopefully you enjoying them is also no changes!
@crazywarlord777 Yes, women play wow too
@@madseasonshow You know it
@@cata112233 this is another nochanging changing example ?)
@@cata112233 yeah but attractive ones?!?!
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Let #NOCHANGES be the path that paves a better game for the future!
Love the vids!
Hello l'dies and gentlem'n, Willie here!
I am still #nochanges, never back down on this.
Mechanics that were in place to compensate for bad internet and computers shouldve been the only changes imo. Why the hell is melee leeway and spell batching in the game where there is 1/4th the ping now compared to back then?
No nochanges only works in Classic. Everything else is corrected in tbc pretty much
Ironforge been taken by the horde is something garrosh would have killed for, holy shit.
He would have killed for a bottle of refreshing spring water while standing near a fountain, lol. He'd kill for fun.
Would have, not would of
@@Cynt3r Pedantic
@@BeastnHarlotDFO You may feel that way, which is fine. I respect that he changed it
if they are taking over maybe IF needs more guards
The biggest change that gets the least attention is the fact that we started on the Naxx patch. There were some huge class buffs given to early that resulted in trivializing early content. That patch made sense right before Naxx, but not in Molten Core.
Don't get me wrong Molten Core was really freaking difficult for most guilds in Classic (even more so than all the easy raids in retail). But with proper patch scheduling and itemization it would have been impossible for most casual guilds.
would love to see classic wow go the way of osrs with old style content polled.
I would probably come back to classic if this happened. Osrs was originally steadfast on not changing anything, but it started to die. Player polled content was its saving grace, and Blizzard needs to learn from that.
the community streams were so healthy for it as well
not happening
Tuauren paladins? Naw, poll to add undead pally if someone on your server cleanses ashbringer as a UD warrior. BOOM.
Completes 1 loose end aswell as adding something different than retail.
I was just gonna write this.
Even uttering the word “Phase 2” now brings me into the fetal position.
must have been alliance. on the horde it was a wpvp blast
@@trlentjr Yes, I was alliance. I played for 5 days and didnt get half a level and quit for a couple months.
@@tmill110 I quit completely
@@Bleiser3 Yeah, I can understand that completely.
@@trlentjr Depends on server. Some servers are pretty damn balanced, some is heavily Horde favoured, however a lot of them is alliance favoured though. Overall it's not that many more Horde than Alliance.
Though I'm thinking EU, Americas might be an entirely different story.
What I'd give to go back to 04-07 just to experience it all over again!
This could be the first accurate validation of "you think you do but you don't"...
On my Server it took some time to form a deadmines group. Took me like 15 to 30 minutes of refreshing who and whispering people. The first fell apart in the smelting room after like 1 1/2 hours in there. The second cleared the shit up and I even got the sword I wanted. I had the thought while looking for people, that it would be so much better to have a lfg tool, but would that have been so rewarding at the end? I doubt it. It has its flaws but I wouldnt go so far and say he was right.
@@scagoyle9254 you're describing the vanilla experience, as everyone remembers it; what they wanted to capture, somewhat anyway... that's not what this vid is referring to as the issue... part of the issue of classic, is we're either too intelligent for that version of the game in general, or just too knowledgeable of its ins and outs, including bugs and senseless exploits...
@@edwardness7497 what i wrote happened yesterday. And I understand what you mean. My point is, that just because one thing sucks, doesnt mean everything sucks. So I can't agree that this is a validation, when there is still some fun stuff to do
@Slip Magoo people completely rejected the statement, a lot still do, but this goes to show there may have been some merit to this criticism...this "nochanges" was initially seen as perfect; flawed, but perfectly flawed in a more nostalgic way; turns out, some of it was just flawed with our new mindset... I take nothing away from the nostalgia, the story, the core feel that brought people back to Classic, but this new perspective allows the player base a better understanding of perhaps one of the reasons why bliz was apprehensive... for some, perhaps many, even a vid like this won't be enough to change their mind, even a little; rose tinted glasses as it were... nostalrius was running independently for ages; doesn't take a genius to realize there's a market; and I would be very curious to know if nostalrius suffered any of the flaws listed in the vid, or was it with retail that these issues became more apparent, and why, why not with nostalrius...
@@scagoyle9254 Nothing in this video is asking for LFG in Classic.
"developers turning back the clock 15 years on a game is unprecedented." But it isn't unprecedented. Jagex did it with OSRS and there's no doubt it had an impact on Wow players and blizzard's idea of what's possible.
Lol as I sit here playing OSRS because of phase 2.
OSRS is the reason WHY I was against the #nochanges movement. What blizzard has done has been done before.
Don't compare runescape to WoW. It doesn't even come close
@@alpatr0s596 It would be silly not to as a lot of the concepts carry over and correlations could be made.
For me, Classic was only great for about 1 month. Then everyone started shitting all over what they claimed to love about the game. Dungeon boosting, raid speed running, multi boxing, and botting.
It’s a shame. But that first month was still fantastic and always a great memory
Because that was the only time the game had a plentiful casual audience. They all left quickly and only the hardcore remained. Which meant the culture of the game was going to be entirely min max. TBH it was always going to be this way. There is no reason for a casual audience to stick around, especially if they are still addicted to retail WoW.
@@cattysplat I'm not so sure. I know I would have stayed way longer, played all kinds of alts, if running dungeons "normally" would have still been possible. Boosting, skipping half the dungeon, only going for those bosses where your "reserved" loot can drop, turning everything into a timed run killed what was the main draw for me to play wow just as it is in retail.
I'm glad I played in the opening 3 months, it was fun
Lesson learned: You think they wouldn't, but they will!
Actually a lesson every game developer worth his salt should've learned way before getting payed for his work.
@Manly Palmer maybe the reason I lost interest is exactly the reasons I stated? Maybe you’re not a high minded as you think
Cant wait in 2028 where we get to experience Classic BFA
Giving the players the choice would be awesome! I also thought it would be really cool to have the option to fight pre-nerf C'thun, as well as the option to fight regular C'thun. To answer the question if C'thun really was mathematically impossible
Asmon, here are a few lines to help you:
-Yeah!
-True.
-Oh yeah! that reminds me of back in the day..
-It is what it is boys..
(Don't forget to go on long tangents and to raise your eyebrows alot, you got this dood!)
Yupppp
back in the day? the dude started around Wotlk or MoP, he never played vanilla or BC wtf are you talking about?
@@kyotheman69 xd
i think he started in Wotlk and it was a joke nonetheless, which you didnt get
Let's see if he reads this comment....
@@kluasvt828 He started in late BC. He's said it multiple times xD
I once leveled a Shaman to the 50s without using totems. I didn’t want them taking up space in my inventory
One of my first characters was a shaman that I invested nearly all my skills into ele for the sweet sweet lightning crits. But I never wore anything with int because someone once told me best stat for sham was agi. I was basically geared as an enh sham only ever doing spell casts.
@@Spamhard Those were the days....
@@alexandernagel8205 They truly were. Ignorance was bliss.
@@Spamhard haha indeed, my friend
Some stupid fault makes it great. Not rush AV everyday.
4:14
Worl buffs
They need an additional buff for the big D
There aren't enough buffs in the worl to summon the big D
I think a better idea than two versions of a live server is to introduce changes on the PTR and see which ones are worthwhile and received well, and what is not. From there you can potentially introduce the beneficial changes to a live environment.
We didn't go far enough with #NoChanges. Clearly not having Blob Shadows is the root cause of all issues in Classic!
#bringbacktheblob
Also 30 fps is minimal? PLS next time you raid with 39 others you get tops 15! It can drop all the way down to 5 due to pets and graphical spells! #BringbackclassicWoWfps
Also introducing random conenction drops, many players had dial up in 2004 so...
@@Finish303 Shiiiieeet I had fiber already.
WoWhead changed alot. Thottbott used to take 15 minutes to load on my pc lol
Addons like questie too.
Agreed. My game client would actually freeze if I ALT-Tabbed for any reason, so I had to be really, REALLY stuck to use Thottbott. And even then it would sometimes not be very helpful, or take 10 minutes of reading through the comments to find the info you needed. It was good for it's day but it was a far cry from the all-knowing data mining that Wowhead and others get up to nowadays.
Don't know if you changed anything but the audio in this video is great. Keep up the good work!
Yeah it's the new mic I showed off in the previous video. Still trying to eliminate some mouth noises but glad you can hear the difference!
Sometimes it really feels like Blizzard should hire you. I really appreciate your balanced and comical take on the things. It's always a good day when there's a new MadSeasonShow vid up.
I think I reference masturbation too much for them to want anything to do with me. I appreciate the sentiment though lol
@@madseasonshow Is there any personal reasons you do that or is this just to preserve the "nerd stereotype"?
@@madseasonshow Well how else does a grand marshal get a 1 armed bicep flex that big?
@@madseasonshow If blizz ever added you into their game it would be a guy has a quest to bring him 20 fish oil, a big iron fishing pole, and the Moist Towelettes.
@@madseasonshow little did he know...
I feel like if they ever make servers with changes there will be a massive amount of drama around which changes are good and which are bad. The community cant agree on anything.
Isn't that why runescape does community voting?
90% of these forum whiners have no interest in being happy. They're recreational complainers, and will never stop. Why do you think they make "This game is dead/on life support!" posts every few months, but continue to play?
WoW community is hard to please to say the least. Admittedly I've been a part of it haha but hopefully I come off as constructive
@@madseasonshow Naw I don't mean folks like you that give reasonable and well thought out criticism, I meant the doom and gloom types who make a 1000 word post about how something was the last straw and they're quitting, but you see them on the forums complaining 6 months later
@@1un4cy Voting doesn't change anything, it just clarifies which idea people think it good or bad lol. Unless you were to totally scratch the "change" because it didn't recieve 99.9% upvote then it wouldn't help at all. Things would still be implemented into the game that a lot of people didn't agree with...
One thing I would have added is why No Changes was so popular. We literally had a company that did not understand why people would want to play Vanilla again. They made a retail product that people were upset with time and time again. Nobody trusted them to make changes in favor of making the game better. Their judgement was lacking. The trust was not there. So they preferred that they just leave it alone.
The issue is that this trust still is not there. Many do not believe they understand. So yes, you need changes to adapt to the new community/tech that is out there, but how should we go about changes? That might be a good topic for a follow-up
The problem is the NOCHANGES REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE making any hope for a valid discussion fruitless.
I gotta say, even though the experience was way different from when I actually played Vanilla it was great and the best WoW experience I've had in at least 8 years.
Do you still play?
@@safaaldeen Just got back on. I stopped playing just before AQ.
@@themasterkey3 Fair enough, i couldn't get into it myself, never played vanilla so expected
I kept saying, to have nochanges you need to have some changes. But ppl couldnt comprehend this and kept flaming me I was stupid. Thanks madseason for clearing this up to everyone finally.
I can never look at an incoming gank the same way again after the metal gear sound effects in the video.
When the spy sound played in the video I had a flashback and looked back at my screen out of PTSD even though I don't even have the addon enabled anymore.
There was a guild in classic that did this they were called vicious cycle on frostmane us they would get 40 people with all world buffs
I think you mean vanilla, otherwise they aren't unique lol
@@RaawHax i do i also dont play the calssic that is out now sorry
As I understand it by the time AQ40 and Naxx were out it was getting more common for the best guilds to get world buffs. But it was never the norm like it has been for classic since the very beginning
@@JT-rj5hk they were the only ones they dominated the server
Nowadays there is 5 ony pops in an hour.. and at least as many ZG buffs
I have a feeling that phase one might be considered the best phase when this is all said and done - it seems that 1-60 was a memorable time for many
As an avid player of Everquest p99, it boggles me that such a massive community of mix/maxxing poopsockers don't play p99 if they want an actual, difficult experience to suit their desire for neckbearding.
That warlock at 9:33 is me I'm Very glad madseason put clip of showing how crazy strong that addon was.
ive been thinking about this for a long time, but the first time this really hit me heavy was when the gates of ahn'qiraj were opened. Since everyone already knew what material was needed to open it people had already stacked up for months so that the whole collecting resources event was over in a couple of hours to a few days at most per server. this ruined the whole event BECAUSE it was #nochanges. this would have been a far more accurate experience to vanilla if they actually swapped the items required for opening the gates so that no1 could prepare for it in advance, and actually had to go out and do the thing legitimately.
Yeah I was an advocate for that too. Wasn't much of a war effort unfortunately
Accurate experience was never promised. With 15 years of knowledge and different gaming mentalities it's obvious people don't want to play the same way they did back then. What was promised was authentic servers yet they managed to screw that up too.
@@mihaa94sky Blizzard didn't ruin classic at all, the toxic min/max player base did.
@@sniper_militia5476 Absolutely not. Players are free to choose how they want to play.
And I don't really think Blizzard "ruined" Classic, game is not ruined, but they could have done a much better job at providing authentic servers.
@@mihaa94sky people not being allowed to play their mains for days because of a world buff ticking isn't ruining the game? Lol Ok
Used to take us 5 minutes to load up 1 picture of Sable
pvp was introduced, cut to Willem Dafoe shouting "THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT!!" :D
boondock saints ftw
As soon as they removed moonwalking I knew it wouldn't slap the same.
I'll be honest Mad, for BC I just want things in as much of a pre-nerf state as possible. Doesn't have to be perfect, but I'd love for them to try. Great video!
Yeah same, was hoping for a pre-nerf c'thun as well to test the old "mathematically impossible" theory. Pretty sure we would have destroyed him anyways, but I think many can agree that a little more difficulty wouldn't be too bad
First character was a NE druid and I just used to sneak around in stealthed catform so I wouldn't get ganked all the time in Ashenvale and Stonetalon Mountain. LOVED EVERY MINUTE OF IT
My first was also a Druid in vanilla. I absolutely remember sheathing around Ashenvale in cat from. Also, I was a balance druid which come to learn now was the statistical worst spec in the entire game upon launch. Lol.
Playing a community driven retro hardcore mmorpg with amazing high quality intelligent individuals in their mid 40s sounds like great fun
High quality and intelligent may be a long shot
Only the neckbeardiest and sweatiest can handle this level of gaming.
wow isnt even hardcore, when vanilla was release it was the casual mmo on the market
@@user-fp2uu4nb2t When wow was launched there was what, EQ, Runsecape, and UO? Can't think of much else.
Hard to call any of those hardcore really. They were just RPGs with online content and mechanics.
Wow was accessible, and that was a good thing. If it had been truly hardcore (which didn't really have a niche back then) it would've been a flop.
Anyone could play it, and get good enough to experience the full game. And community was a thing back then. We were all so excited about being online and talking to other people we didn't know. Making friends. Etc...
Now we don't do that, but its not just because the game is that way. The game adapted to us. We got more insular. Older. Less impressed with the idea. We got Facebook and we didn't need to make new friends. Our guild became barely verbal groups of cooperating players for a few years at best.
Most of us who played in 05 are in our 30s, 40s, and 50s. There are some young ones, but not like it was. We're old, grumpy, and many of us have worse social skills than we did 16 years ago.
So a group of grumpy, tired, aging gamers now prop up this behemoth of a game. No wonder the kids don't like it, and the older players find every reason to hate the game, even though we play it still.
Fuck, I take 3-6 months off the game every year, but I still buy every expansion, usually the overpriced one with the dumb pet and mount. So im no better than anyone else.
@@thebigksmoosey Asheron’s Call , Star Wars Galaxies , Dark Age of Camelot , Shadowbane etc.
Yes, WoW was and is a "Casual" MMORPG. And to be honest, if you compare it to other MMOs it never had that much Community interaction at all. And "too" much was not everyones thing, why it got scaled down.
I really appreciated the Donauwalzer in the Background =) Greets from Vienna!
here before a certain reaction channel watches this for their own content
Yep, hello @ regressing hairline Andy
Hairy Daddy?
the bald one cometh
now i wanna go watch whats his name
@@usaAlexK Hairless Daddy*
@MadSeasonShow Do you know that you're my sleeping therapy for the past year. I had a severe insomnia and refused to take the sleeping pills because of their addictivness. But then I found you, I magically sleep when I watch your videos. Thanks a lot
Not sure if compliment
@@FJxJongno3ga It is. Gentle spoken word is great for people with sleep issues.
Mr. Madseason, you should be the voice that Blizzard listens to when they release fresh Classic servers and TBC & WotlK Classic! Much love from Russia, love your videos!
I appreciate it! I think that would piss off a lot of people though haha
Hands down one of the best video’s you’ve made. The PvP portion made me LOL so much. Keep it up!
Some 16 y/o kid tried to tell me they used to get world buffs in vanilla, jus not as much. I told him -- yeah I actually raided back then and not a chance we did.. lol, im glad you made this video to clarify that. WE PLAYED THE RIGHT WAY
...even tho we didnt know wth we were doing haha. Guess the game will never be as good as it first was.. but its still fun af! ;D
0:00 That feeling when the song come
I like the idea of having separate servers for no changes vs some changes. I for one do like world buffs, even if raid logging gets kinda silly for it, but there are definitely a ton of other problems that came with no changes that would have been cool to have more consumer control over choosing
@Manly Palmer yea I agree no one's forcing me, but I just like seeing big numbers. And if I want to get ony, rend, heart, dmf, songflower, and dire maul tribute and bring all those buffs to raid with the most uptime, I need to grab those buffs at various times of the day. Maybe it differs server by server, but I can't get all those buffs usually in the span of 20-30 minutes without getting ganked or purged by ally, so picking lower peak hours of the day or rolling with an angry mob is the best way for me to do that.
I'd prefer to play in an iteration of classic with worldbuffs, and I think they make watching speedruns as a spectator super enjoyable. But getting fully wb'd does require me to raid log for the day and fool around on my alt (which I don't mind, but that is my reality at least)
@Manly Palmer ill agree that parsing is silly, some fights really incentive some goofy things. Like cleaving the dogs on golemagg when that helps parses but not the raid clear time, or the reverse where like killing skeletons on nefarian doesn't help your parses and ignoring them wipes the raid. In general parses are fine but there are definitely a handful of fights where it incentivizes bad play for the raid. I stopped caring about parses around phase 4, but just hitting harder is fun in general
I questioned why people wanted Classic back.
For me? I wanted its spirit or essence back, that sense of comradery in the open world, for PvP or even PvE, grouping for basic quests, dungeons, traveling the world to get there, meeting people and overcoming challenges.
But all of that literally only works if there's a need to overcome a mountain.
If, since we've all grown up and figured out the game (and have better computers) the content is trivial now, no longer challenging... well there's no reason to do any of that. Necessity is gone.
Classic needed a serious overhaul to raiding and dungeons imo. Massive boost to damage output, HP, and even new mechanics. If this had been done, the game would have thrived even more. Not that it's terrible or anything, just not what I really wanted.
Partially why I never ended up playing Classic. The forums were a clear foreshadowing of some of the attitudes you see in the game. "Maybe...NO CHANGES!" "Perhaps...NO CHANGES!" " If...NO CHANGES!"
"But...NO CHANGES! NO, NO, NO!"
It was almost frightening how at some points it was like foaming at the mouth from these people. I try not to judge but it was like an ..............mentality around them.
The whole reason is a complete lack of trust in Blizzard to change anything in a beneficial way. And Blizzard caused that, not the players.
@@GuvernorDave I agree to a point but I feel not a small number of players were turned off by that mindset.
@@GuvernorDave And even on the "nochanges-line" Blizzard fkd up... 4 x times the player cap of an old vanilla server is no gud for casual farming if you try to get to your consumables as an healer...
It was cult mentality from the getgo.
What are the things and metas that could fuck up tbc classic and how are those can be resolved? A video about that would be great. You probably already thinking about a suggestion video for blizzard to consider for tbc classic. The release is months away but keep in mind that they are designing tbc things right now so do not delay the suggestion video too much.
#nodrums
The madness that happened during wow classic, it's horrific and magnificient at the same time.
Nihilum stacked worldbuffs in Naxx to get world first. They also stacked world buffs in tbc which lead to the change to worldbuffs.
I have to wonder how the whole "you think you do but you dont" comes into play now.
Lol funny how everyone hated on him for that but it was kinda true in a way
The answer was to that statement is "yes we do, but we also dont."
@Blue .Barrymore I mean let’s not ignore the fact that Shadowlands hype is inflating the numbers.
Wtf Brack wasnt right??? People want wow classic, but botters and players ruined the experience for some players
@@quickschweezy People want the pure vanilla experience in classic, the long and hard grind for levels and gear. No one EVER would want to circumvent this core experience by just buying level boosts or items in raids...waaaaait a minute...
Your videos are amazing. Entertaining, informative and great editing. Keep it going my man :D
I would pay for a containemt servers where boosters, gbid runners and parsers can play away from the rest of us.
You will end up with no community
I don't really get how all of this affects you, especially parsers.
@@YouPrincipal It affects me, because when they do it, they start forcing it on other people. Suddenly you're not taken in an MC run that can be cleared with green gear if you don't have world buffs.
You can't find dungeon groups because everyone and their mother is getting boosted to 60, and finally the economy is absolutely rekt by the idiots buying gold with real money and spending up to 40 000 on BWL items...
Most people who have settled into classic have gotten over the world buff meta, there are still horrific fuckwits who scream about it sure, but they arent really the majority anymore. Even barring people buying gold the economy was not going to look anything like it was back in the day unless you wanna section off the people who farm and play the auction house too, and then you seriously wont have anyone to play with lol
@@KaLNFoRc3R I have yet to see a MC pug requiring world buffs. Don't know how it is at your server, but if it's at least medium pop it shouldn't be a problem to find raids / guilds which don't require world buffs.
Obviously you can't be in a top guild if you don't want to get world buffs, you have to settle with the medium speed guilds.
16:07 "to not use what we've learned would be a big waste" 🤔
The fact that Classic fans destroyed Classic from being a reliving of the original pleases me greatly.
I relived leveling with my friends and having a lot of fun, way better than retail. I also still raid every week.
Plenty of people, including me still play it the way it was meant to be played. but yes there is a side of the classic community that has ruined Classic.
At the start, it was quite different, I remember one GM suggested Pristine Server, (Which was like leveling in current but without heirlooms) people hated this idea. Itemization was a mixed bag. While actually private servers were much better tuned and more server stability than Classic WoW...
@Z Zer as someone that has played private servers before I can say that this min max colture wasn’t as widespread as it is on classic wow. People just want to do things fast because wow isn’t free
@@ventu7907 oh really? So you dont met those ppl "real wow starts on 60"? I have seen them more than ever, and oh boy I was knew thats a fallen soldier for us in future
great video as always MadSeason!
classic community is possible one of the shittest ive been in whata great time
Classic was always a 'known' game, with known issues, and this isn't the early 2000's anymore so those issues were bound to be exploited a 1000 times more... which is why I rolled on a PvE server despite enjoying being on a PvP server back in the day.
I would go further and say internet culture is fundamentally different today, even the most casual guild today collects world buffs and stacks consumes like they are going to the WoW Olympics. It's not like in 2005 we didn't have methods of communicating with our guild to organise things, world buffs could have easily been forced, but we simply chose not to, from the top guilds to the bottom, the ethics of the day was play for fun, not extreme competition. Today everything is sweaty, show off and flex for my 5 minutes of fame on the interwebs, everyone has the dream of becoming a streaming celebrity or joining a "professional" guild from your sheer nolife skills alone, many of which are actually making loads of real life money. When your game becomes a job or business it's ethics and attitdue are going to change completely. We simply can't put that back in Pandora's box and go back to 2005, the world has changed and there is no way back but to roleplay a casual experience for fun.
@@cattysplat "the ethics of the day was play for fun, not extreme competition." 50 FUCKING DPS MINUS!
Jokes aside, you know that's not true. People didn't just go "Hey lets play competitive" in 2008.
One thing that classic and BC always remind me of is Xfire. Good times.
Not to mention that Fury DPS Warriors were simply not a thing for the first 2/3rd of Vanilla WoW due to the old talents.
I was looking forward to Classic so much, within a month of hitting 60 I was outta there and haven't been back, that Spy addon was a joke.. I play A Rogue FFS and it just didn't feel the same.. I still enjoyed the nostalgia of lvling and playing through the old zones though..
blizz nerfed the spy addon at some point but i agree that addon ruined wpvp as a stealth player
Sorry, but rogue complaining about wpvp is kinda funny.
I'm lvling a hunter and is now 56, and have ONLY been killed by rogues
All other hordes leave me alone, so I don't feel sorry for you rogues at all
@@oumajgad6805 the whole point of their class is they are stealthy tho, it's not like with stealth they are amazing and without they are okay, without stealth they are useless asf their Armour is made out of wet sponges and most of their best attacks are from stealth or at least the the ones that set up their combos.
@@cweston9440 Cry me river. People have to deal with rogue bs for 15 years. You had it bad for 1 month. Bad... lol. 1 month of not having free opener whenever you want.
As a non classic player, it is interesting to watch this.
I feel it should be a "few changes to simulate a similar experience as it was at release". Hashtagg a few changes makes it no changes.
I never played vanilla. I was interested in questing and doing a few epic quests I've heard stories about. Example onyxia attunement, a questchain that starts in duskwood and ends in feralas(I think it was feralas). When I started leveling si instantly got "look up guides, idiot" or "get the questhelper addon, jerk". I came to lvl 18 on 2 different toons and have not logged back in. Probably never going to. It felt so... Not what I expected it to be.
The cultish upstarts chased out the fresh blood.
@@shivasthong4924 of course I didn't think it was going to be like retail.
But I feel everyone are expected to speedlevel, raidlogg, be pissed if even 1 player dies and looses all world buffs because that will make your logs worse since the boss dies 1 sec slower?
Yes, it is not all guilds that is like that. But many are.
Yo, MadSeason. If you think #somechanges should be a thing, do you think beyond world buffs, pvp problems and so on, should they touch class/spec balance?
It would be nice to see dead specs revived.
The best part is that #blizzard never cared for #nochanges crowd, they followed it only for one single reason: cost efficiency. Basically they used #nochanges to save as much money as possible on design and development. As a result we got a pretty buggy game with griefing and exploiting being a meta.
World buff stacking was certainly used back in classic(Usually just a handful though) but we often wiped at least once even if we gathered up the buffs for just one specific boss(Loatheb always comes to mind). Everything is so optimized nowadays though that even without world buffs we're shattering dps charts(end game stats on gear, end game ability balancing) and able to just ignore so many mechanics. I miss the old days for sure but classic honestly just made me consider going back to retail.
From playing both era's of classic I would say that you hit the nail right on the head. I totally would have went for the + version as it would have been much more challenging and had the true classic feel.
4:15 lol, what are WORL Buffs :D
What you point out is a big reason for why I'd love to see Classic+, and while I have doubts that modern blizz could deliver something with those design philosophies, it would be better than going into TBC. But then again I killed KJ in TBC and I never want to run SWP ever again.
"Players lose any world buff when entering a raid instance." This small change would make the game so much better. It would not force you to keep logged out untill the raid starts. It would make dying much less painful. It would make the content a bit more challenging and it would stop forcing players to gather up all the stupid worldbuffs in the first place.
And people ARE forced to get the buffs, because no one wants to be in the last third of dps / heal meters. You always want to keep up with the others, so not getting the buffs is not an option.
Phase 2 still is the most brutal unforgiving shit I've ever experienced in gaming. Ever.
Unprecedented to turn back the clock? What the hell, lol. EQ/EQ2/Aion/Lineage 1 & 2/Runescape/Ultima Online have all done it. Im sure there are many others.
Aion still exists? The fuck
Archeage too
Except compared to Vanilla those are minuscule.
Also Ragnarok Online did that with their "classic"servers and modern ones, but still is a game that has quite a niche community mainly located on Southeast Asia and Brazil.
@@RottenRotny ah yes classic wow the pinnacle of retro mmorpgs. Not even the most popular retro mmorpg on the market, old school runescape, could stack up this gem
The deadly premonition fishing soundtrack in the background slaps
classic + add quests that unlock difficult modes to end bosses in classic raids, they have a rare chance of dropping something good.
Kara+ blood elf starting zone+ and zul'aman+
Theres so much you can do with classic+ that isn't BC.
Then its not classic anymore, and it would be a whole new expansion.
I mean some Classic fans got angry at me for havin the idea that we could get the new Char models nto classic. Like at the beginning of WoD where you can turn the new models off if you didnt like them. But even something like that that just you effects is a no go for many.
And to be honest, most new ideas for more content should go into expension packs. And not into a Game with huge problems.
@@your-username-here2308 tbh though the new models suck. none of the gear sits right on any of them
@@fearsomewarengine8228 The same with the old ones. But that dosent really matter because in WoD you had the option to turn them off or on.
Love a pagle + idea. Some kind of season system like POE or Ascension.
Another perfectly reasoned take from MadSeason, telling the community something it doesn't necessarily want to hear.
Happy birthday to me, another MadSeason video is up.
I just saw the Video a Month later. Glad you included my Footage and could even hear my "sexy" voice! Props man, thank you
Thank you for recording that!
"Theres a Pally and a Rogue, and they're after my finely toned ass." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I wouldn't mind an option for TBC that is more of a re-enactment version with changes made to capture the spirit of it rather than mimic it completely.
Tuning health and damage numbers to closer match average player skill and adding a cap for buff/debuff preservation of maybe 48-72h to prevent raid logging but still keeping it for a continuation within the same week (full buff clear on weekly reset would have to come with that sort of change though to not risk a every two week meta).
As long as memorable key pain points are remade so we don't see guilds just bypassing the resistance requirement in SSC for Hydross by just being better than players where back then. Non key things like sub 30 fps in Shattrath (You had it, and if you say you didn't you are lying to yourself and others) is not something we need recreated.
Though I shudder to think what epic flying would cost in a world tuned around classic and a likely current day TBC economy.
The phase 2 PTSD hurts :( I'm Alliance
It amazes me that you can still make an entertaining video of wow classic big like for u
Madseason!
We did horde world first on Nefarian and actually we did stack world buffs. Greetings from a former Tia Ra member. Love your vids!
The intro is too chill to resist not subscribing
My classic experience is me hitting 40 then farming 3 mounts worth of gold for myself, my wife and her mom then promptly quitting and never playing it again. Using questing addons and speedrun guides, literally knowing everything ruined the game for me. There was a sense of awe that there was just things people didn't know and it added to this world and made it feel genuine. There used to be so much mystery out there to discover and that discovery leads to a childlike wonder that classic just didn't have anymore. It literally felt like a bunch of 30-40 somethings getting super sweaty to relive some bygone era were they were probably impotent and ignorant.
I started wow about a month prior to BC release. I was waiting at the gate the night it opened. What a rush!
We say "unprecedented" about WoW Classic's existence as if Jagex hasn't done the Classic+ and OSRS+ for Runescape incredibly well.
Rolling back the clock, adding new content that didn't exist originally, community voted features and additions that allow the community to decide what is or isn't in line with OSRS.
That's the important part here, /community voted/. They host polls so that the community can vote on QoL changes, new gameplay additions and other things. If a big majority of players say yes, we get it. If players say no, its dropped.
Its the perfect leash for the devs to not turn Classic into Retial- instead of Classic+ while still allowing for some modernization where it matters
But if the majority is only 55/45, thats 45% of players blizzard is upsetting which is major set back. I just don't think its as black and white as that, they can use polls to get ideas, I dont think they should use them to implement those ideas.
Seal of Blood for both factions in tbc would help a lot!
The game hasn't changed, but players have.
It is October 12 2020. The world hears MasSeason's laugh for the first time. Bruh moment in deed
Was “WORL BUFF” spelled like that on purpose?
I'm pretty certain, because MadSeason's pronunciation on World doesn't emphasize the d at the end often.
@@FantasmicDragon1 lol
I raided very seriously in Vanilla in the Naxx days. We did stack world buffs a bit - but nothing close to what people seem to do in Classic!
When classic relaunched, I re-made my first ever character, a hunter. Completely forgot ammo isn't unlimited and how pets gobble down stack after stack of food.
I immediately rethought my whole life. I'm doing okay now, but still under some trauma after realizing that some things are better left in the past.
????????????
I'm sorry but playing a hunter again isn't life trauma... No matter how you spin it. If ammo, and food for a pet are the worst things that made you quit Classic. You truly didn't want to play to begin with.
Life it's not that bad.... Get past like the first few hours of gameplay on a Hunter, pick up skinning, and literally your money issue for ammo/food is gone. Skin literally any beast you kill for quests, or even go out of your way to grind a tad bit, and you instantly have the silver/gold you need to buy a full quiver of ammo and a few stacks of food to last hours. Then during those hours, you'll skin more beasts from questing, quest reward silver, and greys from mobs will support your fund.
@@Killa162 The fact of the matter is that many people don't find that type of gaming fun anymore. That type of gameplay requires a ton more monotonous action.
@@b4byjebus Just enough people that got classic to be a thing though right? ..... That's the fact. So obviously there's enough people out there that do want older style of MMO's, just not everyone. And that's okay, doesn't mean someone should be as hurt as this guy about it. Just quit and move on. Some people want to feel tied to there class. Hunter class is your tied to a companion that is supposed to be with you. Hunter class main weapon is a bow and your expected to have ammo to use it just like real life hunting.
Point is, SOME people might not enjoy it, but the majority of people that actually wanted classic do enjoy it, and that's what classic being relaunched came out for. Sure it gave the new wow players a taste of the past. But if someone that use to play it, should know better that small details like that of a class was going to become apart of your gameplay. It's honestly not that big of a deal once your past a certain level, specially when your 60 since gold will just pour in from playing the game/farming materials. As I said, the game was re-released for the people that wanted it and wanted this style of gameplay.
we did ZG, BWL and Onyxia buffs every week and we were semi-hardcore in vanilla. But we didn't do the tribute runds and all that.