@@OfficialA1Music how many championships do athletes win in any sport when they’re way past their prime(non-Olympics cause that’s every 4 years). MJ didn’t even make the playoffs, Roy Jones Jr. couldn’t even get a title fight. What type of logic is this.
@@OfficialA1Music Injury years count for Serena because she either took too many corticosteroids or blatantly failed to manage her weight. They were not due to genetic unluckiness like Nadal's foot related injuries. She just packed too much weight on too skinny ankles. We don't give Zion Williamson or Kelvin Benjamin a break either. Also Steffi went pro at age 13. 13! You really gonna count those early years? Be real.
The irony of what James Blake is saying about the depth of women’s tennis today is that, when someone inevitably breaks Serena’s slam record in the future, everyone will claim that this player dominated in a “weak era”. We can all move the goalposts to support our argument.
I think Serena is the best female player off all time. But, I don't mind Mad Dog's take. Good to have opposing arguments. Too many people are too sensitive if someone says something that isn't praising Serena
Serena is below Court, Graf, and Martina but above the rest..so #4 all time in womens tennis. SAS's ridiculous virtue signal was jokes, Serena herself said she would get clobbered by top male players. It is absurd to put any of these women above Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, etc. At some point we have to get serious.
Also hularious these guys think Tiger is the best golfer...lets pretend like his race isn't a huge factor. Anyone who knows anything about golf agrees that the golden bear (Jack) is the greatest golfer of all time - but golf isnt a sport, it is a competition.
@@tomyabo5606 I agree with you on some things. In my opinion, I think she is the best female player of all time. But, it's debatable with Graf, and Martina. I 100% agree with you about the men. Serena would be 700-800 player if she played against the men. I think people say that cause of the impact she had for inspiring women, especially African American women. Kind of like what Mohammad Ali did for boxing and standing up for what he believed in.
This is actually really impressive. Serenas longevity is unprecedented. Except I believe it’s the norm now. We will see more and more players finding success in their late 30s and 40s. We see it happening in ALL sports. Jerry rice was the first, making the pro bowl and recording 1000 yards at 40! Brees played into his 40s, Peyton hit 40 (won a SB at 38), Brady is still playing at 45 (win a SB in his 40s), Rodgers will play into his 40s, lebron is still one of the best in the game near 40. Fed, nadal, and djoker will push their limits too. With advances in nutrition, science exercise, and medicine, athletes can now have longer careers. So, serena was the first to do it and it is impressive. But the dominance Graf had over her peers - winning 22 slams in 13 years - I’m not sure we will ever see that again.
@@clee8019 yeah ur probably right. Steffi was my fave back then. Serena my fave now so don’t ask me to pick a goat. Diff times. Diff games. Diff equipment. Idk!
Depth is relative in women’s tennis rn, recent champions and high seeds are getting knocked out in the first/2nd rounds by unranked players. It’s literally unpredictable who will reach the finals..
Steffi took advantage of the fact that Monica Seles was stabbed and then never the same again. If that had not happened, Steffi would not have 22 slams as Monica would have taken a number of those.. Martina will also readily admit that Serena is better than her. Serena's power would run Martina off the court.
@@chriskay1449 Yeah and Sam Shankland would checkmate Jose Raul Capablanca in 20 moves as well, doesn't mean the latter isn't greater than the former. And yet. Serena with her uncontrolled power hitting using the old non-microfiber rackets of Navratilova's era, Serena with her lack of emotional maturity towards umpires, Serena (with her contemporary issues with diet causing injuries) 30 years earlier in terms of diet science (and, pretty certainly, PED science)? She would've maybe won two slams at best in the Navratilova era.
@@BubblesBub434 Delusional. Also, Serena would run -Martina off the court in this era. Further, Serena's power is very controllable. You are just a pure hater pushing a narrative. Martina would readily admit that Serena is better.
@@serveoutwide No, two legends Evert and Navratilova were still in their prime (early to mid 30s) when Graf turned pro. Graf also battled prime teen phenoms - Seles, Hingis. Not to mention Sabatini, Davenport, Capriati, Vicario, Pierce etc.
Did blake asked how steffi did against seles? graf was 10-5 career and 6-4 before the stabbing incident , at no time was seles ever leading in their h2h or dominant. when steffi lost the #1 ranking she had a lot of issues going on her personal life her dad, under investigation for tax evasion etc. those issues affected the mental part of her game. 22 slams in 10 year, took serena almost double the time and tries to reach that goal. both ladies played in different eras and both deserve to be mention in the GOAT debate.
Serena just beat the Number 2 player in the world at the age of 41 with a child coming off a major injury! What are we debating at this point! Steffi won 1 major the last few years of her career because just like most tennis players her game was predicated on mobility. Serena’s insane power and shot making has allowed her to still be competitive in her 30’s despite losing agility and speed. Serena pushed So many champions into early retirement because they couldn’t compete with her in her 20’s. Steffi would have surely had a tough time also. As did Seles, Davenport, Hingis, Venus, Henin, Capriati ect.
@@jacarihudson9653 lmao..typical bandwagon jumper, at no point in graf's career did she go 10 years and won only 1 slam..she went pro as a 13 year old in 1983 and won her 1st GS title in 1987 and by 1997 had 21 GS. between 1997-1999 she missed almost half the events due to major surgery and right before she retired in 99, played 3 of the slams, she made the QF,won 1and reached the finals in the other. get your facts right because you're sounding like the US media who's either pretending or just ignoring those facts.
@@markc6378 noone needs to ignore those facts. As great as Stephanie was Serena is the GOAT. And since you laid out an injury report allow me to do the same. Serena had several surgeries too and missed a couple years of tennis due to injuries. Additionally, covid interrupted a year of her playing as well. Oh and let's not forget she was off for over a year after having a baby. And she won about half of her majors after the age of 29. The same age Stephanie was when she decided to retire in 99...probably because she saw the Williams coming and wanted no parts of that. Serena and Venus sent many players into retirement. So my point is that the US media nor anyone else needs to omit or dismiss anything about Stephanie's amazing career to know Serena is the Goat.
Graff won 107 titles, 22 grand slams before she was 28, met navratilova, Ever, Seles, Vicario, Sabatini, hingis, difficult era... Serena won 73 titles, 23 grand slams, facing a weak era since 2010..
@@lov6858 do u feel that way abt Margaret Court winning abt 10 of her slams when nobody else was playing becuz for one the Aussie was too difficult to get to so nobody went and two pros were banned from playing for a time, so where was her competition?
Graf is the only player, male or female, to win a Golden Slam in a calender year, winning all 4 Grand Slams and the Olympic Gold in 1988. Steffi was extremely special!
Me as not a tennis fan I though Serena being the goat was a for gone conclusion , but Mad Dog makes decent arguments . That's why is good to hear from older people who seem all era's. And also aren't so caught up in media hype
@@xerospades I never said they weren't just pointing out the level of competition Sarena had to face. Venus was just as dominant if not more than anyone he mentioned.
@@DarkBlackTimes mad dog had listed greats. I'm just curious how is someone who went 22 championships in 10 years not considered good in comparison to someone who took 22 years to do such? It's like as if people want to devalue previous competition in order to put Serena or Venus up top cuz they're popular. That's what I'm gathering from this entire thread. Even hit with facts like how people do NBA debates in comparing LeBron James and Michael Jordan and how Jordan is better they don't want to say the same for Serena. Only argument that I see is that Serena face better competition or that she is "physically" better. Which at least the competition thing can be debated
@@DarkBlackTimes I can tell you have no idea about the history of tennis! Steffi's opponents in Slam victories have an accumulated 59 Majors compared to Serena's opponents who had only 37! Proving Steffi's competition in the Majors was greater! Being the GOAT (Greatest) means doing something or accomplishing feats no-one else ever has! Serena hasn't accomplished that! Full stop! 💪
Serena top 5 of all time for sure. STEFFI GRAF: 1) won 36 more professional titles in 9 less years on the tour 2) had a higher lifetime winning percentage by FOUR PERCENT. 3) had more weeks at number one, playing in less years 4) won an Olympic singles Gold 5) won Calendar year grand slam Graf had FIFTY five more weeks at number 1 and finished the year number 1 EIGHT times to Serena’s 5.
Top 5 you funny. Graf was the beneficiary of a lesser competitive talent pool overall by far. Also the beneficiary of a better player being stabbed in her prime.
@@daboss289 you funny. You are conveniently skipping past Serena playing 7-8 more years with THIRTY SIX less titles. A FOUR percent less winning percentage?? 58 less weeks at number 1. Never a grand slam. You funny.
@@justice4cms618 yeah whatever let's just get over the fact that Monica seles who she had a losing record against was stabbed in her prime by a fan as delusional as you.
@@cheesejadeitekiwifox no, the US Open alone won’t get this kind of coverage. The coverage is because of Serena. Without her, the majority of general sports fans wouldn’t even know the US Open was happening right now.
@@michaelss1294 says a person that’ll never amount to anything SW has done in her life. Yet you comment in your lonely bedroom contemplating on the your next useless achievement that no one will ever care about. Serena was never blessed with model features, but no one cares bcuz that woman has graced the top of her profession while you ……… just a nobody
@@johnin374 Patrick Roy & billy smith weren’t bums, had 3 250+ point seasons like if you averaged 70-80 a game in the nba 3 times which even wilt couldn’t do
Evert and Navratilova were at the end of their careers and Seles got stabbed at NINETEEN when she had 8 Slams and Steffi had 11 at age 24. Graf would’ve had less than 22 for CERTAIN.
Because shits your opinion but sides should be considered u clearly dislike Serena it’s cemented either way Martina no main rivalry only Chris Graff didn’t have Seles healthy until she was stabbed so
@@xerospades Car racing is as much of a sport as horse racing. They're considered Sports but imo are more competitions than sports. Jockeys at least have to be athletic to race with balancing and syncing athletic movement with the horse. NASCAR is closer to video game racing than ever with steering wheels closer to controllers. I prefer F1 and Indy racing where they don't go just go around in circles. My point was about athletes. Is Tiger faster on the golf cart? Make it speed tennis with rally golf carts and maybe it will get a pulse. I love golfing as a 'pass-time' (pun intended) but never once felt like an athlete doing it. Maybe it was the beer. I'll ask John Daly.
@@ZombieZifiction So was she just supposed to wait her entire career for “good competition”? That’s a dumb argument Lol She was just better than everyone else
This was actually one of the better takes iv heard on hear. For me it seems everyone from 18 year olds to 80 year old knows who Serena Williams is, that's the impact she has had. The same as everyone alive knows MJ even if they never watched basketball in thier lives. That is my reasoning as to why Serena is the GOAT of ladies tennis
@@saschavandl6693 I am from and live in the UK, maybe its just my circle I know but even over here womens tennis House hold names are venus and Serena Williams, I bet most cant even name the young British girl Emma
@@leejones1782 it's not just your circle. ppl who really follow tennis understand that if seles hadn't gotten stabbed, graf would have 4-6 less grand slams. seles was starting to dominate graf. really only martina should be in the conversation and her style of play couldn't even survive today.
Mate by this metric Tim Tebow is one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. 'impact off the court' does not and should not be valued in sports, that's just a cope so you can put an american woman in first. Not to mention she put tennis in disrepute in three very major cases (dq in french open, dq in us open, and the whole final vs Osaka saga, which she was confirmed wrong on all accounts on by the way) so you can't even be sure that her personality has been that positive thing counting for her. And it's not like she has anywhere close to GOAT stats. Maybe in case she was actually somewhat close to Navratilova or Graf, you could give her the edge due to her off court stuff. But she isn't. It's literally not even close. Look up the stats.
@@BubblesBub434 this is a such a weird and terrible comparison. the williams sisters revolutionized the entire way the game is played. they took tennis from a country club sport to what it is today. the reason why women's tennis is even getting respect today and elevated to a peer sport to the men's is because of them. there are no young quarterbacks saying i want to be like tebow. he did not transform the game in anyway. only tiger woods and simone biles can be in this stratosphere. so odd to mention tim in this conversation.
So cringe how many of these guys bring up tiger woods as if he's surpassed Jack Nicklaus lol. He's not in the discussion if he's not the greatest of his own sport.
@@davidrichards6059 not a good comparison, I assume you're going the "oh well he's got 11 chips to X players Y amount of chips" route. Of course chips aren't the end all be all, but that's not the case I'm making. Woods hasn't passed Nicklaus yet, and not just due to that alone.
These GOAT debates are just tired. The greats are just that...GREAT. Steffi, Monica, Bjorn, John, Roger, Pete, Rafa, Serena, Martina, Venus, Novak. Boris and more... All great, all are/were thrilling to watch. Just love the game for what it is.
Chris Evert is probably the most underrated player in these discussions. She won 90% of matches that she played from day 1 at the start of the 70s until retirement in 1989, and reached the semi-finals of more than 80% of the tournaments that she entered. She also won most of the tournaments that she entered, with more title wins than match defeats. She won 18 grand slams, but it’s worth remembering that the grand slam count wasn’t seen as the be all and end all then, far from it (it only increased in importance in the 90s when Sampras closed in on Emerson’s record on the men’s side). Also she, more than Navratilova, was impacted by the reduced importance of both the Australian and French Opens for a while. Had all 4 grand slams been equally important, and slam counting been a big deal when she played, she clearly won have won more grand slam titles than Navratilova, and would have at least come very close to Court’s record herself.
I don’t credit Court for her slam record first for the reasons u stated re: the French and the Aussie but also becuz of the fact that becuz the Aussie was too hard to get to and not respected as a major of any real import at least 10 of her wins were against non professionals. But of course that’s just my opinion
@@delarensiverson5163 agreed. Plus Court ‘only’ winning Wimbledon 3 times is an issue. Wimbledon was the most important tournament by a long way when she was active - the individual Wimbledon title count was a way bigger deal than the overall slam count back then. She was a serve-volleyer whose game was tailor-made for grass. Unlike for the men, there was no player politics weakening Wimbledon fields for the women in the 60s or early 70s. But she won the title there the same no. of times as the baseliner Evert, and way less than Navratilova, Graf and Serena.
@@delarensiverson5163 Margaret also played in an era when 3 of the 4 grand slams were played on grass, so the level of difficulty wasn't the same as Martina, Steffi or Serena.
What about consistency, Graf stayed at the top year in and year out. Literally top 1,2;3 where as Serena would dip down into the 100’s and disappear for stretches of time. Be off tour for injuries and other personal problems. Graf delt with just as many injuries but her work ethic and commitment allowed her to return quickly and win right out the gate. Serena would come back over weight and would be out of sorts for a period of time before she got back into form. Serena had numerous more early round exits than Graf. It has been painful to watch Serena the last 2-3 seasons. The adoration and praise she got for just winning a 1sr round match was mind boggling. Those are the expectations of the GOAT?. Graf’s final season on tour , wins the French, finals at Wimbledon. Consistent greatness year in and year out is so incredulity difficult. Yet she did it. The Serena Slam, Graf had two seasons of those plus the actual Grand Slam. Mind you Serena had her shot to win the calendar Slam. What happened , she totally crumbled under the weight of the pressure and expectation. That semifinal vs Vinci was so pathetically bad. All the antics , the whimpering , the yelling , constantly looking up to her box throwing her hands up like it was there fault or something. She was so tight she was pushing the ball, her ye unique completely abandoned her. Of course instead of answering for her performance she left the court and skipped her press conference. That is cowardly. They want to talk about all these Unlike Graf who got it done. She beat Evert in one final, Navratilova at Wimbledon and 7time defending champion, Sabatini who handed her her only 2 defeats that season in the Open final. Talk about mental toughness . No excuses , no drama , she just took it all head on and produced her best with the highest of stakes at hand. Serena is amazing and may be the GOAT to many, and all the arguments make sense. But for Blake to say Seles is so ridiculous and dismissive of Graf and the type of champion she was. Numerically she bests Serena by far in some categories and beats her in most. The Serena has is the 23 majors , 1 one more than Graf. Which Graf if she continued to play had a high probability of achieving 1-2 more. Mind you she retired weeks after winning the French and finals at Wimbledon.
Dumb argument. Serena Williams is the greatest and it's not close. Graf wouldn't dominate this game like she did back when tennis was still basically SEGREGATED. Is there no end to the cap?
So the new feminist movement agenda is that Serena Williams is probably the best athlete ever to play sports ? Wow, we are really getting very stupid and dumb these days huh, smh
We’ve been talking about the Williams sisters since they arrived on the scene in the late 90s, more often than not in unflattering ways. They have not only excelled amidst all that but went on to change the sport, “turning center court into center stage.”
Of course theres going to be unflattering press when youre getting caught cheating on multiple occasions and throwing tantrums. A few years ago she called an ump a sexist bigot because he gave her a warning for cheating during the match. She threw a tantrum, started yelling at him, and threw her racket. Osaka the woman who was dominating her was literally crying on stage after winning because the serena stans were booing her. Osaka literally missed tournament out of fear of the press and the fans. Serena deserved a lot of the bad press she received
I always enjoyed watching Steffi's matches because there was never any drama from her on the court. She let her racket do the talking and rarely said a word. I will always admire her professionalism much like the way Venus always conducts herself on court as well.
Most in the US have a nuanced view what it means to be GOAT. Without going into too many specifics, no one in the US thinks bill russell is better than MJ (11 chips vs 6).
The argument that Blake uses - that radecanu can come out of no where and win the us open , doesn’t help. It just proves that this whole generation of tennis is wildly inconsistent. Emma, Halep, leylah, Osaka are all already out before the third round. The competition isn’t better, it’s barely watchable. Contrast to men, if fed didn’t win, you know nadal or djoker will. Those 3 battled each other. For the most part, Serena battled a bunch of one hit wonders.
Oh and no matter how you cut it, serena loses every time to Graf if you bring up stats. Serena may have two “serena” slams. But Graf has one golden slam (88) and one “serena” slam (she also won 4 consecutive slams in 93-94). And in 95 and 96 Graf won every slam she entered. She won 6 in those 2 years only bc she missed the AO both years because of injury.
Our generation needs to be more appreciative of all the truly great athletes we've had in the past 30 years. Tennis has given us Sampras, Serena, Venus, Steffi ,Agassi,Nadal , Federer and The 🃏.. Some of the all time greats in 30 year's.
Mad Dog is entirely incorrect. Steffi Graf cannot be the greatest of all time because she has won 1 slam less than Serena. That draws the ultimate line. Why is that one slam important? 1. Serena won her 23rd and record breaking slam while 2 months pregnant. 2. She did so WITHOUT losing a set in the entire tournament. Also, people might say that Steffi competed almost half as much as Serena did, but there can’t be a valid comparison between the two athletes because Serena was out of competition for years when she almost died because of a blood clot problem after getting injured. The biggest decider, when looking at the stats, on who the GOAT is comes down to one woman: Monica Seles. Monica Seles’ stabbing highlighted the superficiality of the WTA at that time, due to Seles dominating Steffi at 18 in slam finals and semi-finals, with a h2h of 2-1. She was the reigning world number 1 at the time and at a tournament in Hamburg, she was stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan, who couldn’t live down the fact that Monica was matching Steffi’s game at such a young age (18). After Seles’ stabbing, the attacker reached his goal and Steffi reclaimed the number 1 spot, dominating the game again. There’s this current argument that Serena didn’t face an all time great in her life, but the all time greats that Steffi faced were either too old, not in their prime, or both. Take Martina, for instance. Martina won all of their first 3 encounters, but lost 6 in a row as she reached the end of her career. Chris Evert was never in top form when she played Steffi, as well. Also, the concept of all time greats is an outdated concept in itself because those players stand as a mascot of WTA because of the way that they transcended women’s tennis back in the day. When you look at Martina’s game in that era, her main strategy was serve and volley and other parts of her game were just too superficial. As Monica Seles said, “the new generation is faster, stronger, more mobile.” You cannot compare Steffi’s grand slam titles with Serena’s because Serena dealt with harder opponents and dominated through them, therefore they couldn’t win slams and she could. Has everyone forgotten how Serena wiped out Henin, Capriati, Hingis, Venus, Davenport, and more off the court in the 2000s. Then, she had to deal with the even newer generation and cleared them off the court as well. As a cherry on top, Steffi doesn’t have a doubles career to add into her resumé, but Serena does. Serena is unbeaten in grand slam doubles finals with her sister and has won 14 slams, while Steffi has won only 1. Also, Steffi has 1 gold medal to Serena’s 4. When the stats and the bigger picture meet together, Serena Williams is the undisputed GREATEST OF ALL TIME.
@@joehalliday6081 wrong, wrong, and wrong again. If you can’t debunk any of my statements, don’t bother commenting. A child Serena took care of a 29 year old Steffi. Next.
I still don't understand why Margaret Court isn't mentioned as if 24 doesn't matter and there's a reason she's chasing 24 cuz if she already had the record I guarantee you she wouldn't have come back
Because Margaret only won 11 of those 24 titles during in the Open Era. Prior to 1968, only amateurs could contest grand slam titles. So 13 of those 24 titles came during an era when Margaret didn’t have to face the top talent of the time. The division of eras kind of hinders bringing her into the conversation. That said, I’m not saying that to be snarky. I’m only pointing out the historical context of the matter :)
Graf had no competition. Her one competition got stabbed with a knife by one of her crazy fans. And Seles had 9 slams by the age of 19 and has been looked at as the greatest had she not been stabbed. Steffi didn’t face any competition and the game was no where near as hard when she was playing.
Steffi faced way more competition playing against Navratilova (19 slams), every (18 slams) seles around 8 slams. Those are the facts. Steffi had to beat other GOATS, Serena did not
@@Joseph-be3tv Evert and Navratilova were definitely past their prime when Steffi was playing them. They were literally from a generation earlier. Evert has even said tournaments were easy back then and no where near as hard. She said the tournament didn’t even start until the quarter finals. Also Seles was on Steffi’s heels which is why she got stabbed to begin with.
@@AFCompany Evert has been in the tank for Serena her entire career. Graf has just 1 major less than Serena but won way more titles, which is sus on Serena not playing many events and dodging drug tests
Steffi Graf won 21 slams in 10 years 1987-96 that's insane. She had most weeks at no 1 (377), most year end no 1 (8), quadruple slam, only player in history to successfully defend all 4 Slam, best winning percentage in slam. She is undisputed GOAT then it's Martina then Serena. Of course it's hard for USA media to accept Steffi as the GOAT. Her dominance in tennis from (1987-96) was bigger than MJ & LeBron & Woods & on a par with Gretzky, Ruth, Phelps & Bolt.
How could she be the goat of all sports and comparing to Jordan and such when she’d not be in even the top 500 if playing against male players? She’s not even the goat of tennis.
But we won’t acknowledge the scrutiny with another athlete in a goat debate. I agree Serena is the goat, Monica we can say if she didn’t this or that and she was bad but Serena has done with the evaluation of the sport.
Serena is not the GOAT of tennis, Feder, Nadal and Djokovic all play each other the level of competition is so high, Serena hasn't had that many great challengers and they have 22, 21 and 20 grand slams respectively. Hard to see one of them not passing her on 23. As for women's tennis, sure. I honestly don't know I wasn't around with Navratalova, would have been fun to see her against Steffi, but I'd pick Serena over Steffi. But to say she is the GOAT of tennis is too much
@@gregorydunston2952 dude look up the facts. She has 73 titles in singles, Martina 167. Margaret court has over 70 grand slams if u combine all of it. Her weeks at number one trail graf DESPITE playing for 10 more years. Cut this out
The best Serena can do all time in TENNIS is 4th (If you stupidly want to combine it with the men's game). The men's game has more depth than the women's game, and Nadal, Federer and Djokovic have won 20 slam while two whole other people in their same era won a combined 40+. If you think Serena is the greatest TENNIS player (forget overall athlete) of all time you're suffering from one or more of the following: being American; rooting for her because she's a woman/black woman; ignorant about tennis; purposefully being disingenuous or just a plain stupid.
There is LESS depth now thanthere was in the 70s - 90s. Serena's competition did nothing even when Serena was absent. She lucked into the easiest schedule ever.
Martina, Seles, Evert... Serena's competition in the 2010s: Kerber, Sharapova,... She faced good players but she didn't face top 10 players all time in the 2010s.. 2000s, she had tough competition and only won a few GS titles.
Lindsey Davenport, Justine Henin, Jennifer Capriati, Martina Hingis, Kim Clijsters, Venus, of these were all former #1 that she faced early in her career, not even including all the former number #1’s she faced later in her career and you’re trying to say her competition was easy? Get a clue…
That's the thing about the competition Serena has faced late in her career: she CREATED it. She inspired it. She's beaten girls that grew up watching her at a rate that no champion has before. And that competition she inspired goes *beyond* the women's side: Kyrgios and Tiafoe for example. That's why, for me, removing the qualifier of "female" is important, because of her cross-gender impact. So focusing on her not having had to have played Evert, Martina or Seles is far too narrow a viewpoint to take on this.
Man you tripping I watched Stephie Graf play and what she did in her 10 year span was more impressive, she would beat Serna, I'm a brown brother who use to watch her monica seles , they wasn't any better than Stephie Graf y'all need to do some research instead of being emotional
The Maria Sharapova crowd now wants to devalue everything Serena has done... The depth of field and the physical nature of the game is different!!! Everyone they mentioned is great but, the ESPN Generation can't just say that and walk away!
All the coulda should woulda with Graf & Seles os tiring, doesn’t matter because their head to head speak for itself and it’s not Grafs fault Seles got stabbed. Also if Graf didn’t retire at 30 she “could shoulda woulda” won more slams.
James you had me until you said she can be compared to Tiger woods. I agree that Serena is the women's tennis GOAT in that she had the wins and helped transcend the sport, open new doors for new players in the way Tiger did, but Tigers transcendence was more transformational to the sport than Serena.
Yes and no..as a women she can only do so much because men are better so she can never be best at her sport. But using that qualifier she is tiger woods
I disagree with that. Serena transformed womens tennis with a power game it had never seen before. Look at how most players played before Serena and after. It has become a power game now. The game looks completely different since Serena came in, far different than what Martina, Chrissie, and Steffi played.
@@lairdhercules4553 Womens tennis? Absolutely. She increased womens prize money as Tiger did for golf. Serena brought more people of color into the game as did Tiger. Serena brought equality in prize money to the men. Womens golfers still get far less than the men.
The argument about athleticism always giving Serena the edge. Hello please watch Graf and her speed and footwork on a side by side with Serena. Graf clearly is the mor athletic. Serena is more powerful overall but not on forehand side. Also Serena beat Venus in numerous finals to win a Slam. What a huge advantage that is. To play someone you train day in ad day out with. All these GOAT conversations are ridiculous. They are iconic players who each have individual attributes that set them apart from others. James Blake I have to say makes the least compelling argument in Serena’s favor of all of the people I have heard , he himself was so overrated as a player.
You cant compare the game now to the game that 20 -30 years ago.Its like the NBA,the players are much much more talented than 20 years ago.Stephe was a monster in her era but there's many monsters in Serena era.
20-30 years ago isn’t that long ago man. Back then in the nba, we still have the GOAT PG (magic), the GOAT SG (MJ), GOAT PF (take your pick between bird or Duncan), and maybe not your GOAT center but 2 of the most athletically gifted/physical centers we have ever seen in history (the dream and Shaq). Jordan still has one of the highest verticals ever recorded along with wilt chamberlains (who was also an old timer). Just look at the top 10 list of highest verticals, at least 4 on that list was of players 20-30 years ago. And as mad dog said, 4 of the history’s biggest monsters - Martina, seles, Everett, and Graf - their careers overlapped. There were no monsters in Serena’s generation.
The players were talented in all eras, the difference is today's medicine and sports nutrition is better, if they had the same back then, it would be very similar, if that's the case then we should go by the numbers
James’ point is totally not valid. It’s not like Roger Federer and Rafael nadal are also tennis players, and it’s not because they’re men. They are just better.
@@mayankingrevisited8815 nah , I’d rather take the word from someone who actually played lol Mad dog’s takes are common across all sports . He’s an old head and typically ranks players of his time the greatest , it’s not a coincidence lol and his viewpoint represents the minority . When you talk about the GOAT of tennis or even bring up the top greatest athletes ever , Serena Williams is always brought up for a reason .
Steffi is in first place in weeks ranked #1. And weeks ranked #1 is not a popularity contest or voted on. The players have to earn points through wins at tournaments. Martina is in second place and Serena is in a distant 3rd place. Serena will never beat Steffi or Martina in this record. NEVER. Also Serena has 39 total grand slams, singles, doubles, and mixed. MARG has 64 total grand slams!!!!! And before you rebut with open era vs pre-open era bs, MARG beat all those same players that missed the tournaments pre-open era, in the open era. It wouldn't have mattered who showed up, she annihilated the field. Serena and her fans are chasing 24 singles championships, why? Why because MARG has 24. Thus Serena validates MARG's record
Steffi is first place for weeks ranked #1, then Martina and then in a very distant 3rd place is Serena. This is a very important record when ranking players' dominance of their era.
@@joehalliday6081 no it’s really not. Serena did not play as many tournaments as these other women did so she wasn’t always number 1 in points when she won slams.
@@thatisnottrue you just validated my point. Serena gave up on the strategy of trying to break Steffi's record of weeks #1 and decided to cherry-pick Grand Slams and tournaments preparing her for a slam. In doing so she avoided injuries, mental burnout, and exhaustion. She “gamed” the system to try and break MARG’s record of 24 singles gs. Do you know how many total gs, including singles, doubles, and mixed doubles Serena has? The answer is 39. MARG has 64 total gs. Not close!
@@joehalliday6081 Do you even know you’re own points. You first said that number 1 was the show of dominance of their era which I countered by saying more tournaments played to get number 1 does not mean someone is mor dominant. Then you said Serena gave up going for the record of weeks at number 1 which makes no sense because it never seemed like a goal so how could she give up? Then you went on to talk about Margaret Court who holds the most slams of all time but not in the open era but you specifically talked about the open era in your original post. You are all over the place sir. By your logic are you saying that Margaret Court is the best tennis player of all time? Also, it is more of a feat to win a grand slam not at number 1 because the number 1 has arguably an easier road than someone in a lower ranking. Lastly, Serena has missed a lot of time due to injury or medical problems (like almost dying) so again, what are you talking about?
@@thatisnottrue record holder at weeks at number 1 shows grit, ability to play hurt, burned out, exhausted and still prevail. Serena could have continued the grind but she was exhausted, getting injured and mentally checking out. She said so in many interviews, so she chose to focus on slams thereby giving her a greater chance than steffi to rack up slam numbers toward steffi’s 22. She had said this repeatedly, she just focused on slams. So how to say who is goat going purely by slams if the players took different approaches. My point is steffi chose the grind, dominanted the weeks ranked #1, by far and has only one fewer singles slams as serena who quit the grind to play slams. Clearly that does not make serena the goat.
I hate these woke an PC warriors declaring Serena a GOAT in any sport male or female, she has openingly admitted she wont win a point vs the top guys, lost to a player ranked 200 or something he was smoking between change overs etc, then beat venus straight after just as comfortably...its a nature thing people, it not illegal to state the obvious. It iust geting a bit tiresome now at this stage. Women's tennis, there can be a great debate with Martina and Steffi, that is it over, finished Not mens tennis which is a different sport or any other sport, ridiculous.
THANK YOU, for saying that, Serena did it all while having a target on her back, black athletes have it twice hard being heckled while playing and people threatening to harm you.
Black athletes do not have it twice as hard, and if heckling stops you then you are not much of an athlete. Serena gets points for making it due to her upbringing, but then again, she also competes against people who grew up in actual war zones, not the manufactured ones in american cities.
As much as I don't like Novac as a player, he came from a war torn country. Training while his city was bombed as a child. Spare me the "Serena had it hard" speech.
She was heckled in 1995? And not since? YOu are sheepishly repeating a bullsh*t narrative that does not relate to anything. Go back under your rock. It is 2022.
blake they talk about her more now because it is ALL MARKETING TO SELL MORE RUNNING SHOES back during steffi it was ABOUT TENNIS...Serna should have retired long ago like steffi, sampras, bjorg,henin who left on top not linger around to sell more running shoes..another is fedsqaush same thing more marketing to sell running shoes when Fed has had Zero chance in 5 years..Steffi is GOAT 22 slams in half the time as serena, held on all 4 titles in calender year along wiht Olympic gold and way more accomplished players to beat..
The female tennis GOAT is so hard and competitive. You have King, Navratilova, Graf, Serena, and seles before the stabbing. And Sabatini before the drugs. I never agree with Mad Dog but the womens tennis GOAT is contested no matter who you go with.
Steffi is in first place in weeks ranked #1, then Martina and then Serena in a distant 3rd place. This record reveals the dominance of Steffi. Also, MARG has to be mentioned in the debate. MARG has 64 total grand slams, including singles, doubles, mixed. Serena has 39. And don't clap back with the pre open era bs. All the players that weren't in the tournaments pre open era? MARG annihilated them in the open era. So her pre open era wins are all valid. Why else would Serena be chasing 24 gs in singles? Because MARG's record is valid.
It's a Serena, Graff, Evert, Navratilova conversation. Steffi's the most dominant. Serena is the BEST. If I had to pick a women's player in her ABSOLUTE prime, I'm taking Serena all day every day.
@@chiefnama790 you missed the point didn’t you? People are commenting that serena would easily beat MARG. My point is that different era’s require different skills and the training, diet, and equipment have changed. So it is idiotic to put MARG into a match today just like it is nonsense to have Serena play a wooden frame racquet. She would lose every game. Similarly, federer, nadal and djok worship their bodies, with highly regimented nutrition and training regimens. Compare those champions to McEnroe, borg and nastasie who partied all through the night, went to the slam final with no sleep, still buzzed and won championships eating hamburgers. Times change. It is childish thinking to say Serena would beat MARG. You could say that about nearly every player in the last 20 years. And in 20 years, there will be a player that people say could beat Serena easily. She will be 6’9” compared to Serena’s smallish 5’9” and have a serve averaging 125 mph compared to Seren’s lingering 105 mph. That ‘s just how time advances. None go backwards. Look at golf. Players now can hit the ball more than 300 yards routinely. 40 years ago with wooden “woods” hence the name, it was unheard of to hit the ball 300 yards. So serena is not the goat. A GOAT has to so dominate their era, the have a plethora of records set during their playing years. That is the only valid way to compare different era’s. The “eye ball test” is for fools that don’t understand the bigger perspective of the passage of time and changes to equipment, training, etc. don’t fall into that naive narrative.
People don't discuss the huge impact that the modern rackets have had on the game. That is why it is unfair to compare the 70s 80s eras to today's tennis.
Wouldn’t even know tennis was a mainstream sport if it wasn’t for Serena lol she literally one of the only one most people who don’t follow the sports know
I don't usually get him or like his take but I actually get Mad dog's points! I felt like back in that Seles, Martina, Steffi era there were a lot of top women compared to now in comparison to who Serena played.
I love how people just rewrite history. Steffi was 6-4 against Monica before the stabbing and finished with a 10-5 H2H against her, yet all I keep reading the last week is how Steffi was dominated by Monica. Really? So having a winning H2H against somebody is being dominated by that person? Well that makes sense doesn't it lol Come on people, I understand everybody hasn't been watching tennis for over 30 years like myself, but at least do your research before you just go and rewrite history to make your argument sound better
Jason Whitlock has an excellent review of the debate about Serena being a non goat. Search "Why Serena Williams Ain’t the GOAT" on youtube. He cites facts, not woke opinion.
Except from 1990-93, seles was ascending and there was a sense of dread among graf fans. seles won 9 slams in that period (graf won 3), took the #1 ranking, was 3-1 against graf in slams (overall record 4-3). And seles NEVER PEAKED. She accomplished all of this as a teen facing graf was 22 and in her prime. She was only going to get better. A deranged graf fan that felt that dread took matters into his own hands, and we were denied perhaps the greatest womens player of all time.
Except from 1990-93, seles was ascending and there was a sense of dread among graf fans. seles won 9 slams in that period (graf won 3), took the #1 ranking, was 3-1 against graf in slams (overall record 4-3). And seles NEVER PEAKED. She accomplished all of this as a teen facing graf was 22 and in her prime. She was only going to get better. A deranged graf fan that felt that dread took matters into his own hands, and we were denied perhaps the greatest womens player of all time.
MARG gave birth to her first child in the OPEN ERA,1972, but returned to tennis later in the year and won three Grand Slam singles titles in 1973, the OPEN ERA.
If u look at Serena’s career she took a lot of time off. She need play 22-23 years 20 tournaments a year. Many years she only played the majors and many’s years she didn’t even play at all. Which is why she has been healthy into her 40’s. Serena has dominated tennis at its most competitive. She also has more slams. She is the GOAT. There is no debate.
Yea, she took a lot of time off due to her treating tennis as a side hustle. She is a businesswoman/ entrepreneur first and foremost. She never EARNED the GOAT status. That's why she is 5th overall in career single titles 👎
We're not even allowed to have a conversation about who is actually the GOAT in women's tennis? Graf beats her in every category except GS titles, but Graf had to retire early due to injuries. She was still 3rd ranked player in the world even with injuries; she was that good. Healthy, Graf wins 25 GS titles by age 35 easily.
Graf was a beast of an athlete. Her footwork was second to none. Let alone she was playing world championship style tennis at the same time of the East West Germany situation.
Serena won whilst pregnant and came back from some awful injuries like the lacerated tendon in her foot and took her out of the game for a year not to mention the birth of her child which led to an emergency C section and an emergency operation to remove a blood clot from her lung. My point is without these factors and having to rival her sister all records would have been long since broken and it wouldn't even be a debate
It’s crazy Steffi gets credit for stopping with injuries but Serena doesn’t get for winning a major pregnant and fighting through injuries to compete in her later years. The truth is just like most tennis players Steffi game declined after 96. Only winning 1 major the last few years. The writing was on the wall. Serena has been able to compete older because her power and serve. If Serena relied on youth and mobility she would have tapered sooner and left in her early 30’s also! For gods sake she just beat the number 2 player in the world at 41 coming off a serious injury! What are we debating!🤣
Most of yall thats saying serena is the goat is the type to watch golf only when tiger is playing and say he is the goat. I take stock into fans and analysts that has seen more than one player play
You don’t know enough sports shows if you asking that question lol. His also in MLB the show 22 as a reporter. His been around for awhile so if anything you just clowned yourself on the lack of knowledge of sport reporters.
@@HollowHornBear415 you mean the guy that's mostly on radio. Thats why I've never heard of him because apparently the two of you are dinosaurs. Skip is more relevant and you know it.
@@cesarhands2930 nope just actually watch more sport shows then you and he is on this show all the time so you obviously don’t know what you are talking about 🤡.
They had to bring some woke guy to try and refute Mad Dog’s point. How dare Mad Dog claim Serena is not the best of all time? 😂 Having a different point of view this days makes you a bigot 😂
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That's actually crazy this woman won 22 slams in 10 years lol that's madness
Yea but she was pro from 82-99! And she only won 1 slam the last 3 years of her career! It’s very misleading as if she only played 10 years
@@OfficialA1Music how many championships do athletes win in any sport when they’re way past their prime(non-Olympics cause that’s every 4 years). MJ didn’t even make the playoffs, Roy Jones Jr. couldn’t even get a title fight. What type of logic is this.
Man
@@GodofFinesse so you don’t count all the years for Graph yet count the years that Serena didn’t win when she was injured and pregnant! 🤦🏽♂️
@@OfficialA1Music Injury years count for Serena because she either took too many corticosteroids or blatantly failed to manage her weight. They were not due to genetic unluckiness like Nadal's foot related injuries. She just packed too much weight on too skinny ankles. We don't give Zion Williamson or Kelvin Benjamin a break either.
Also Steffi went pro at age 13. 13! You really gonna count those early years? Be real.
Heated? This was the most relaxed MadDog segment since he's been on FT.
He’s a terrible analyst
That's because he doesn't know or care about womens tennis. Nobody should.
The irony of what James Blake is saying about the depth of women’s tennis today is that, when someone inevitably breaks Serena’s slam record in the future, everyone will claim that this player dominated in a “weak era”. We can all move the goalposts to support our argument.
Heated? They were chill asf. Lol
Lol yup
Clicks got to be gotten 😂😂😂
That's what I'm saying lol
I think Serena is the best female player off all time. But, I don't mind Mad Dog's take. Good to have opposing arguments. Too many people are too sensitive if someone says something that isn't praising Serena
I agree with you, but Mad Dog always talking about players who played before Kennedy was shot... like c'mon. Serena would dog them hoes
Serena is below Court, Graf, and Martina but above the rest..so #4 all time in womens tennis. SAS's ridiculous virtue signal was jokes, Serena herself said she would get clobbered by top male players. It is absurd to put any of these women above Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, etc. At some point we have to get serious.
Also hularious these guys think Tiger is the best golfer...lets pretend like his race isn't a huge factor. Anyone who knows anything about golf agrees that the golden bear (Jack) is the greatest golfer of all time - but golf isnt a sport, it is a competition.
*hilarious
@@tomyabo5606 I agree with you on some things. In my opinion, I think she is the best female player of all time. But, it's debatable with Graf, and Martina. I 100% agree with you about the men. Serena would be 700-800 player if she played against the men. I think people say that cause of the impact she had for inspiring women, especially African American women. Kind of like what Mohammad Ali did for boxing and standing up for what he believed in.
Also Serena won 11 of her slams in 10 years before the age of 28, and 12 after turning 28, when most players would have retired.
Good point 👍🏾
This is actually really impressive. Serenas longevity is unprecedented. Except I believe it’s the norm now. We will see more and more players finding success in their late 30s and 40s. We see it happening in ALL sports. Jerry rice was the first, making the pro bowl and recording 1000 yards at 40! Brees played into his 40s, Peyton hit 40 (won a SB at 38), Brady is still playing at 45 (win a SB in his 40s), Rodgers will play into his 40s, lebron is still one of the best in the game near 40. Fed, nadal, and djoker will push their limits too. With advances in nutrition, science exercise, and medicine, athletes can now have longer careers. So, serena was the first to do it and it is impressive. But the dominance Graf had over her peers - winning 22 slams in 13 years - I’m not sure we will ever see that again.
@@clee8019 yeah ur probably right. Steffi was my fave back then. Serena my fave now so don’t ask me to pick a goat. Diff times. Diff games. Diff equipment. Idk!
Not even that but she and her sister were off tennis due to illness and a child birth
She don't play as much either. She takes alot of time off.
Why are they comparing Tiger to Serena or Jordan for that matter? ESPN does the dumbest debates of all time
Depth is relative in women’s tennis rn, recent champions and high seeds are getting knocked out in the first/2nd rounds by unranked players. It’s literally unpredictable who will reach the finals..
He's an American ESPN analyst. Ask European analysts they will fight for Steffi and Navratilova
Steffi took advantage of the fact that Monica Seles was stabbed and then never the same again. If that had not happened, Steffi would not have 22 slams as Monica would have taken a number of those.. Martina will also readily admit that Serena is better than her. Serena's power would run Martina off the court.
@@chriskay1449 Yeah and Sam Shankland would checkmate Jose Raul Capablanca in 20 moves as well, doesn't mean the latter isn't greater than the former. And yet. Serena with her uncontrolled power hitting using the old non-microfiber rackets of Navratilova's era, Serena with her lack of emotional maturity towards umpires, Serena (with her contemporary issues with diet causing injuries) 30 years earlier in terms of diet science (and, pretty certainly, PED science)? She would've maybe won two slams at best in the Navratilova era.
@@BubblesBub434 Delusional. Also, Serena would run -Martina off the court in this era. Further, Serena's power is very controllable. You are just a pure hater pushing a narrative. Martina would readily admit that Serena is better.
@@chriskay1449 to be fair if seles wasnt stubbed she would have the grand slam record by a huge margin. She was robbed of her greatness
@@notis6107 No she wouldn't either, because she still would have run into the Williams Sisters after she got done battling Graf.
Graff- 22 grand slams by 30years of age is incredibly impressive.
Wait until her and Andre’s kids are of age to hit the pro tour!
it's impressive bc her main competition during her prime was arantxa sanchez vicario. seles' attack was a gift to graf's legacy.
Who even was Steffi’s rival when she was competing for those grand slam titles? 40 year old Martina or Evert? Give me a break
Goat
@@serveoutwide No, two legends Evert and Navratilova were still in their prime (early to mid 30s) when Graf turned pro. Graf also battled prime teen phenoms - Seles, Hingis. Not to mention Sabatini, Davenport, Capriati, Vicario, Pierce etc.
Their kids are of age. They don't want to play tennis. Their son plays college baseball. Their daughter is not interested in any athletics.
Did blake asked how steffi did against seles? graf was 10-5 career and 6-4 before the stabbing incident , at no time was seles ever leading in their h2h or dominant. when steffi lost the #1 ranking she had a lot of issues going on her personal life her dad, under investigation for tax evasion etc. those issues affected the mental part of her game. 22 slams in 10 year, took serena almost double the time and tries to reach that goal. both ladies played in different eras and both deserve to be mention in the GOAT debate.
Steffi was pro from 82-99 so let’s not act like she didn’t go almost 10 years and won only 1 grand slam
Serena just beat the Number 2 player in the world at the age of 41 with a child coming off a major injury! What are we debating at this point! Steffi won 1 major the last few years of her career because just like most tennis players her game was predicated on mobility. Serena’s insane power and shot making has allowed her to still be competitive in her 30’s despite losing agility and speed. Serena pushed So many champions into early retirement because they couldn’t compete with her in her 20’s. Steffi would have surely had a tough time also. As did Seles, Davenport, Hingis, Venus, Henin, Capriati ect.
@@jacarihudson9653 lmao..typical bandwagon jumper, at no point in graf's career did she go 10 years and won only 1 slam..she went pro as a 13 year old in 1983 and won her 1st GS title in 1987 and by 1997 had 21 GS. between 1997-1999 she missed almost half the events due to major surgery and right before she retired in 99, played 3 of the slams, she made the QF,won 1and reached the finals in the other. get your facts right because you're sounding like the US media who's either pretending or just ignoring those facts.
@@markc6378 noone needs to ignore those facts. As great as Stephanie was Serena is the GOAT. And since you laid out an injury report allow me to do the same. Serena had several surgeries too and missed a couple years of tennis due to injuries. Additionally, covid interrupted a year of her playing as well. Oh and let's not forget she was off for over a year after having a baby. And she won about half of her majors after the age of 29. The same age Stephanie was when she decided to retire in 99...probably because she saw the Williams coming and wanted no parts of that. Serena and Venus sent many players into retirement. So my point is that the US media nor anyone else needs to omit or dismiss anything about Stephanie's amazing career to know Serena is the Goat.
I agree they should be mentioned...Serena would still be THE Goat thou 😏
Graff won 107 titles, 22 grand slams before she was 28, met navratilova, Ever, Seles, Vicario, Sabatini, hingis, difficult era... Serena won 73 titles, 23 grand slams, facing a weak era since 2010..
Except she didn't face Seles for as long as she should've thanks to that lunatic.
@@lov6858 do u feel that way abt Margaret Court winning abt 10 of her slams when nobody else was playing becuz for one the Aussie was too difficult to get to so nobody went and two pros were banned from playing for a time, so where was her competition?
@@lov6858 the 90s felt pretty weak too after seles' injury. i genuinely think graf would've had 4-6 less slams if not for the stabbing.
Bottom line Serena number 1 in prize money.
@@ynot7119 Because she played in a time when players won more prize money lol. Inflation is a thing
Graf is the only player, male or female, to win a Golden Slam in a calender year, winning all 4 Grand Slams and the Olympic Gold in 1988. Steffi was extremely special!
100% agreed. Never debated by me
If Steffi and Serena played in their prime, Steffi would get MollyWopped!
@@danieljohnson4530 different era
Agree
@@joehalliday6081 lol ok lol fella lol
Me as not a tennis fan I though Serena being the goat was a for gone conclusion , but Mad Dog makes decent arguments . That's why is good to hear from older people who seem all era's. And also aren't so caught up in media hype
No. He conveniently left out the fact Serena had to face Venus Williams who was better in her prime than anyone Mad Dog mentioned before the injuries.
@@DarkBlackTimes like any other sport injuries is a part of the game.
@@xerospades I never said they weren't just pointing out the level of competition Sarena had to face. Venus was just as dominant if not more than anyone he mentioned.
@@DarkBlackTimes mad dog had listed greats. I'm just curious how is someone who went 22 championships in 10 years not considered good in comparison to someone who took 22 years to do such? It's like as if people want to devalue previous competition in order to put Serena or Venus up top cuz they're popular. That's what I'm gathering from this entire thread. Even hit with facts like how people do NBA debates in comparing LeBron James and Michael Jordan and how Jordan is better they don't want to say the same for Serena.
Only argument that I see is that Serena face better competition or that she is "physically" better. Which at least the competition thing can be debated
@@DarkBlackTimes I can tell you have no idea about the history of tennis! Steffi's opponents in Slam victories have an accumulated 59 Majors compared to Serena's opponents who had only 37! Proving Steffi's competition in the Majors was greater! Being the GOAT (Greatest) means doing something or accomplishing feats no-one else ever has! Serena hasn't accomplished that! Full stop! 💪
when did mad dog and james blake get heated? title is clickbait
Serena top 5 of all time for sure.
STEFFI GRAF:
1) won 36 more professional titles in 9 less years on the tour
2) had a higher lifetime winning percentage by FOUR PERCENT.
3) had more weeks at number one, playing in less years
4) won an Olympic singles Gold
5) won Calendar year grand slam
Graf had FIFTY five more weeks at number 1 and finished the year number 1 EIGHT times to Serena’s 5.
Top 5 you funny. Graf was the beneficiary of a lesser competitive talent pool overall by far. Also the beneficiary of a better player being stabbed in her prime.
@@daboss289 you funny. You are conveniently skipping past Serena playing 7-8 more years with THIRTY SIX less titles. A FOUR percent less winning percentage?? 58 less weeks at number 1. Never a grand slam. You funny.
@@justice4cms618 yeah whatever let's just get over the fact that Monica seles who she had a losing record against was stabbed in her prime by a fan as delusional as you.
@@daboss289 Nonsense Graf 6:4 h2h Seles before stabbing.
I just love the fact they're talking about tennis period. Variation in content MATTERS
When Serena retire they won't touch tennis again lol that's just to show mad dog how important Serena is and was to the game
@@cheesejadeitekiwifox no, the US Open alone won’t get this kind of coverage. The coverage is because of Serena. Without her, the majority of general sports fans wouldn’t even know the US Open was happening right now.
Literally only because Serena is an American
Mad Dogg like him or not he never forgets about the history In sports
i think even Steffi, Chrissy, and Martina would admit Serena is the GOAT.
Is close dude ,check number by number is closer that what you think ... is been so long that we forget..
They already have admitted it
A GOAT is a GOAT whatever he or she says it or not. Just look at the GOAT of all GOATs ALI🐐
Sir Rena is a GOAT of masculinity
@@michaelss1294 says a person that’ll never amount to anything SW has done in her life. Yet you comment in your lonely bedroom contemplating on the your next useless achievement that no one will ever care about.
Serena was never blessed with model features, but no one cares bcuz that woman has graced the top of her profession while you ……… just a nobody
I’m legitimately convinced that Russo doesn’t like any player currently under the age of 65
Dude that moron said Serena is on the same level as gretzky and Jordan tf you talking bout
No doubt 😂😂😂😂
Serena isn’t even the best of her sport, Gretzky & Jordan made it almost impossible to do better than them
Gretzky played against no goalies
@@johnin374 Patrick Roy & billy smith weren’t bums, had 3 250+ point seasons like if you averaged 70-80 a game in the nba 3 times which even wilt couldn’t do
This wasn't heated at all. 2 men engaging in a calm respectful debate. Yall really over selling hard on the HEATED part
Clickbate💻🖥
Evert and Navratilova were at the end of their careers and Seles got stabbed at NINETEEN when she had 8 Slams and Steffi had 11 at age 24. Graf would’ve had less than 22 for CERTAIN.
These takes from Mad Dog are the ones you can really appreciate. The man’s sports history knowledge is incredible.
Because shits your opinion but sides should be considered u clearly dislike Serena it’s cemented either way Martina no main rivalry only Chris Graff didn’t have Seles healthy until she was stabbed so
He's a boomer, fan of the plumbers lol
@@kaantekuzman4536 🙄🙄
@@kaantekuzman4536 well said
Not all the time because he try to compare era that was way limited talent wise to guys in the 90s,00s and now
Tiger Woods doesn't belong on any greatest athlete lists. It's golf. It's a game and hardly a sport with bare minimum athleticism required.
But it's still a sport. Pretty sure not everybody can "just play golf". That's like saying nascar ain't a sport because they are in cars.
I though that too until I played it. But I see what you’re saying. I guess you could consider it closer to chess than tennis.
One of the most ignorant things I have ever read.
@@xerospades it’s not a sport it’s skill that’s like saying that esports are sports they obviously require skill but no athleticism
@@xerospades Car racing is as much of a sport as horse racing. They're considered Sports but imo are more competitions than sports. Jockeys at least have to be athletic to race with balancing and syncing athletic movement with the horse. NASCAR is closer to video game racing than ever with steering wheels closer to controllers. I prefer F1 and Indy racing where they don't go just go around in circles. My point was about athletes. Is Tiger faster on the golf cart? Make it speed tennis with rally golf carts and maybe it will get a pulse. I love golfing as a 'pass-time' (pun intended) but never once felt like an athlete doing it. Maybe it was the beer. I'll ask John Daly.
She is GOAT of women's tennis, no doubt. Serena won 15 grand slams without dropping a set...
Bad competition doesn't make u the goat
@@ZombieZifiction 🎤 drop…..
@@ZombieZifiction So was she just supposed to wait her entire career for “good competition”? That’s a dumb argument Lol She was just better than everyone else
@@corpyhogan4433 its not her fault for sure but it is what it is.
@@corpyhogan4433 that argument hurts her debate for goat
This was actually one of the better takes iv heard on hear. For me it seems everyone from 18 year olds to 80 year old knows who Serena Williams is, that's the impact she has had. The same as everyone alive knows MJ even if they never watched basketball in thier lives.
That is my reasoning as to why Serena is the GOAT of ladies tennis
If you ask people in the USA, yes. If you ask peoiple in Europe, no. Everyone has their favorites.
@@saschavandl6693 I am from and live in the UK, maybe its just my circle I know but even over here womens tennis House hold names are venus and Serena Williams, I bet most cant even name the young British girl Emma
@@leejones1782 it's not just your circle. ppl who really follow tennis understand that if seles hadn't gotten stabbed, graf would have 4-6 less grand slams. seles was starting to dominate graf. really only martina should be in the conversation and her style of play couldn't even survive today.
Mate by this metric Tim Tebow is one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. 'impact off the court' does not and should not be valued in sports, that's just a cope so you can put an american woman in first. Not to mention she put tennis in disrepute in three very major cases (dq in french open, dq in us open, and the whole final vs Osaka saga, which she was confirmed wrong on all accounts on by the way) so you can't even be sure that her personality has been that positive thing counting for her. And it's not like she has anywhere close to GOAT stats. Maybe in case she was actually somewhat close to Navratilova or Graf, you could give her the edge due to her off court stuff. But she isn't. It's literally not even close. Look up the stats.
@@BubblesBub434 this is a such a weird and terrible comparison. the williams sisters revolutionized the entire way the game is played. they took tennis from a country club sport to what it is today. the reason why women's tennis is even getting respect today and elevated to a peer sport to the men's is because of them. there are no young quarterbacks saying i want to be like tebow. he did not transform the game in anyway. only tiger woods and simone biles can be in this stratosphere. so odd to mention tim in this conversation.
"How did Steffi against Monica Seles?" Answer: 10:5 (6:4 before and 4:1 after the stabbing).
Mad dog got a point on this topic, it’s debatable it’s not like Jordan in the nba
Have you heard of LeBron James?
@@harinderrana9735 he's debated at number 2 or less. By MANY.
@@xerospades 🧢
@@Messigoat1033 I don't want your cap. Like others, I don't need to let the media force feed us LeBron into being the goat or number 2.
"Two Serena Slams" is no strong argument against Steffi. She won another non calender GS 1993/94.
So cringe how many of these guys bring up tiger woods as if he's surpassed Jack Nicklaus lol. He's not in the discussion if he's not the greatest of his own sport.
so Bill Russell is the actual GOAT in Basketball?
@@davidrichards6059 not a good comparison, I assume you're going the "oh well he's got 11 chips to X players Y amount of chips" route. Of course chips aren't the end all be all, but that's not the case I'm making. Woods hasn't passed Nicklaus yet, and not just due to that alone.
These GOAT debates are just tired. The greats are just that...GREAT. Steffi, Monica, Bjorn, John, Roger, Pete, Rafa, Serena, Martina, Venus, Novak. Boris and more... All great, all are/were thrilling to watch.
Just love the game for what it is.
The only reason you praise Serena so highly because you want a GOAT for this generation. Young people don’t know Graf and Martina.
Chris Evert is probably the most underrated player in these discussions. She won 90% of matches that she played from day 1 at the start of the 70s until retirement in 1989, and reached the semi-finals of more than 80% of the tournaments that she entered. She also won most of the tournaments that she entered, with more title wins than match defeats.
She won 18 grand slams, but it’s worth remembering that the grand slam count wasn’t seen as the be all and end all then, far from it (it only increased in importance in the 90s when Sampras closed in on Emerson’s record on the men’s side). Also she, more than Navratilova, was impacted by the reduced importance of both the Australian and French Opens for a while. Had all 4 grand slams been equally important, and slam counting been a big deal when she played, she clearly won have won more grand slam titles than Navratilova, and would have at least come very close to Court’s record herself.
I don’t credit Court for her slam record first for the reasons u stated re: the French and the Aussie but also becuz of the fact that becuz the Aussie was too hard to get to and not respected as a major of any real import at least 10 of her wins were against non professionals. But of course that’s just my opinion
And I agree. Evert doesn’t get the accolades she deserves
@@delarensiverson5163 agreed. Plus Court ‘only’ winning Wimbledon 3 times is an issue.
Wimbledon was the most important tournament by a long way when she was active - the individual Wimbledon title count was a way bigger deal than the overall slam count back then. She was a serve-volleyer whose game was tailor-made for grass. Unlike for the men, there was no player politics weakening Wimbledon fields for the women in the 60s or early 70s. But she won the title there the same no. of times as the baseliner Evert, and way less than Navratilova, Graf and Serena.
Chris was great but they didn’t play the same type tennis...Steffi is great BUT........Serena is the GOAT
@@delarensiverson5163 Margaret also played in an era when 3 of the 4 grand slams were played on grass, so the level of difficulty wasn't the same as Martina, Steffi or Serena.
Mad dog got a point
Mad dog and Skip are old washed up geezers
@@ynot7119 they have wisdom. I googled it up Graff got 22 championships in 10 years and Williams got like 23 in 17 years. Numbers never lie
What about consistency, Graf stayed at the top year in and year out. Literally top 1,2;3 where as Serena would dip down into the 100’s and disappear for stretches of time. Be off tour for injuries and other personal problems. Graf delt with just as many injuries but her work ethic and commitment allowed her to return quickly and win right out the gate. Serena would come back over weight and would be out of sorts for a period of time before she got back into form. Serena had numerous more early round exits than Graf. It has been painful to watch Serena the last 2-3 seasons. The adoration and praise she got for just winning a 1sr round match was mind boggling. Those are the expectations of the GOAT?. Graf’s final season on tour , wins the French, finals at Wimbledon. Consistent greatness year in and year out is so incredulity difficult. Yet she did it. The Serena Slam, Graf had two seasons of those plus the actual Grand Slam. Mind you Serena had her shot to win the calendar Slam. What happened , she totally crumbled under the weight of the pressure and expectation. That semifinal vs Vinci was so pathetically bad. All the antics , the whimpering , the yelling , constantly looking up to her box throwing her hands up like it was there fault or something. She was so tight she was pushing the ball, her ye unique completely abandoned her. Of course instead of answering for her performance she left the court and skipped her press conference. That is cowardly. They want to talk about all these Unlike Graf who got it done. She beat Evert in one final, Navratilova at Wimbledon and 7time defending champion, Sabatini who handed her her only 2 defeats that season in the Open final. Talk about mental toughness . No excuses , no drama , she just took it all head on and produced her best with the highest of stakes at hand. Serena is amazing and may be the GOAT to many, and all the arguments make sense. But for Blake to say Seles is so ridiculous and dismissive of Graf and the type of champion she was. Numerically she bests Serena by far in some categories and beats her in most. The Serena has is the 23 majors , 1 one more than Graf. Which Graf if she continued to play had a high probability of achieving 1-2 more. Mind you she retired weeks after winning the French and finals at Wimbledon.
Dumb argument. Serena Williams is the greatest and it's not close. Graf wouldn't dominate this game like she did back when tennis was still basically SEGREGATED.
Is there no end to the cap?
segregated? hear of arthur ashe?
stupid take that's like saying Michael Jordan wouldn't dominate in today's game of basketball
@@derekgiesbrecht2929 really..... name another non white player from that error
@@anthonypierre2094 since any shade darker then vanilla is considerred black then you have plenty to chose from.
Just no lol
So the new feminist movement agenda is that Serena Williams is probably the best athlete ever to play sports ? Wow, we are really getting very stupid and dumb these days huh, smh
This debate will go on for centuries
We’ve been talking about the Williams sisters since they arrived on the scene in the late 90s, more often than not in unflattering ways. They have not only excelled amidst all that but went on to change the sport, “turning center court into center stage.”
Of course theres going to be unflattering press when youre getting caught cheating on multiple occasions and throwing tantrums. A few years ago she called an ump a sexist bigot because he gave her a warning for cheating during the match. She threw a tantrum, started yelling at him, and threw her racket. Osaka the woman who was dominating her was literally crying on stage after winning because the serena stans were booing her. Osaka literally missed tournament out of fear of the press and the fans. Serena deserved a lot of the bad press she received
I always enjoyed watching Steffi's matches because there was never any drama from her on the court. She let her racket do the talking and rarely said a word. I will always admire her professionalism much like the way Venus always conducts herself on court as well.
It’s a man
Read between the lines: How could you even say 22 is greater than 23 ... only in USA.
No only an idiot ! he has idiot written all over his face
Most in the US have a nuanced view what it means to be GOAT. Without going into too many specifics, no one in the US thinks bill russell is better than MJ (11 chips vs 6).
Well in total titles graff has serena more than doubled
And Graf's 107 career singles titles is better than Serena's 73 🙄
23 after more 12 years competing. Lol
" I'm not sure she has the most accomplished career "
- Evert on Serena Williams
Most diplomatic..
The argument that Blake uses - that radecanu can come out of no where and win the us open , doesn’t help. It just proves that this whole generation of tennis is wildly inconsistent. Emma, Halep, leylah, Osaka are all already out before the third round. The competition isn’t better, it’s barely watchable. Contrast to men, if fed didn’t win, you know nadal or djoker will. Those 3 battled each other. For the most part, Serena battled a bunch of one hit wonders.
Oh and no matter how you cut it, serena loses every time to Graf if you bring up stats. Serena may have two “serena” slams. But Graf has one golden slam (88) and one “serena” slam (she also won 4 consecutive slams in 93-94). And in 95 and 96 Graf won every slam she entered. She won 6 in those 2 years only bc she missed the AO both years because of injury.
Our generation needs to be more appreciative of all the truly great athletes we've had in the past 30 years. Tennis has given us Sampras, Serena, Venus, Steffi ,Agassi,Nadal , Federer and The 🃏.. Some of the all time greats in 30 year's.
Djokovic better then Fedal
She's not the greatest Tennis Player of All time, she may be the Greatest FEMALE Tennis Player.
Mad Dog is entirely incorrect. Steffi Graf cannot be the greatest of all time because she has won 1 slam less than Serena. That draws the ultimate line. Why is that one slam important? 1. Serena won her 23rd and record breaking slam while 2 months pregnant. 2. She did so WITHOUT losing a set in the entire tournament. Also, people might say that Steffi competed almost half as much as Serena did, but there can’t be a valid comparison between the two athletes because Serena was out of competition for years when she almost died because of a blood clot problem after getting injured. The biggest decider, when looking at the stats, on who the GOAT is comes down to one woman: Monica Seles. Monica Seles’ stabbing highlighted the superficiality of the WTA at that time, due to Seles dominating Steffi at 18 in slam finals and semi-finals, with a h2h of 2-1. She was the reigning world number 1 at the time and at a tournament in Hamburg, she was stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan, who couldn’t live down the fact that Monica was matching Steffi’s game at such a young age (18). After Seles’ stabbing, the attacker reached his goal and Steffi reclaimed the number 1 spot, dominating the game again. There’s this current argument that Serena didn’t face an all time great in her life, but the all time greats that Steffi faced were either too old, not in their prime, or both. Take Martina, for instance. Martina won all of their first 3 encounters, but lost 6 in a row as she reached the end of her career. Chris Evert was never in top form when she played Steffi, as well. Also, the concept of all time greats is an outdated concept in itself because those players stand as a mascot of WTA because of the way that they transcended women’s tennis back in the day. When you look at Martina’s game in that era, her main strategy was serve and volley and other parts of her game were just too superficial. As Monica Seles said, “the new generation is faster, stronger, more mobile.” You cannot compare Steffi’s grand slam titles with Serena’s because Serena dealt with harder opponents and dominated through them, therefore they couldn’t win slams and she could. Has everyone forgotten how Serena wiped out Henin, Capriati, Hingis, Venus, Davenport, and more off the court in the 2000s. Then, she had to deal with the even newer generation and cleared them off the court as well. As a cherry on top, Steffi doesn’t have a doubles career to add into her resumé, but Serena does. Serena is unbeaten in grand slam doubles finals with her sister and has won 14 slams, while Steffi has won only 1. Also, Steffi has 1 gold medal to Serena’s 4. When the stats and the bigger picture meet together, Serena Williams is the undisputed GREATEST OF ALL TIME.
Steffi is #1 in number of weeks ranked #1. Serena is a distant 3rd behind Martina.
@@joehalliday6081 wrong, wrong, and wrong again. If you can’t debunk any of my statements, don’t bother commenting. A child Serena took care of a 29 year old Steffi. Next.
@@serveoutwide childish immaturity and lack of tennis reference. Do you play tennis or are you just melanated?
@@serveoutwide And a child, Tan, never having won a tournament took out Serena the supposed goat. you are lame and your arguments are lamer.
I still don't understand why Margaret Court isn't mentioned as if 24 doesn't matter and there's a reason she's chasing 24 cuz if she already had the record I guarantee you she wouldn't have come back
Because Margaret only won 11 of those 24 titles during in the Open Era. Prior to 1968, only amateurs could contest grand slam titles. So 13 of those 24 titles came during an era when Margaret didn’t have to face the top talent of the time. The division of eras kind of hinders bringing her into the conversation.
That said, I’m not saying that to be snarky. I’m only pointing out the historical context of the matter :)
Graf had no competition. Her one competition got stabbed with a knife by one of her crazy fans. And Seles had 9 slams by the age of 19 and has been looked at as the greatest had she not been stabbed. Steffi didn’t face any competition and the game was no where near as hard when she was playing.
Steffi faced way more competition playing against Navratilova (19 slams), every (18 slams) seles around 8 slams. Those are the facts. Steffi had to beat other GOATS, Serena did not
Exactly!
@@Joseph-be3tv Evert and Navratilova were definitely past their prime when Steffi was playing them. They were literally from a generation earlier. Evert has even said tournaments were easy back then and no where near as hard. She said the tournament didn’t even start until the quarter finals. Also Seles was on Steffi’s heels which is why she got stabbed to begin with.
@@AFCompany Evert has been in the tank for Serena her entire career. Graf has just 1 major less than Serena but won way more titles, which is sus on Serena not playing many events and dodging drug tests
Agree with Mad dog Graf is the best ever
Steffi is the GOAT hands down. Golden grand slam and 22 slams in 10 years.
Steffi Graf won 21 slams in 10 years 1987-96 that's insane. She had most weeks at no 1 (377), most year end no 1 (8), quadruple slam, only player in history to successfully defend all 4 Slam, best winning percentage in slam. She is undisputed GOAT then it's Martina then Serena. Of course it's hard for USA media to accept Steffi as the GOAT. Her dominance in tennis from (1987-96) was bigger than MJ & LeBron & Woods & on a par with Gretzky, Ruth, Phelps & Bolt.
How could she be the goat of all sports and comparing to Jordan and such when she’d not be in even the top 500 if playing against male players? She’s not even the goat of tennis.
But we won’t acknowledge the scrutiny with another athlete in a goat debate. I agree Serena is the goat, Monica we can say if she didn’t this or that and she was bad but Serena has done with the evaluation of the sport.
Monica got stabbed. She was literally ROBBED of the GOAT status.
Serena is not the GOAT of tennis, Feder, Nadal and Djokovic all play each other the level of competition is so high, Serena hasn't had that many great challengers and they have 22, 21 and 20 grand slams respectively. Hard to see one of them not passing her on 23. As for women's tennis, sure. I honestly don't know I wasn't around with Navratalova, would have been fun to see her against Steffi, but I'd pick Serena over Steffi. But to say she is the GOAT of tennis is too much
Maybe not the GOAT of tennis but that wasn’t her fault that no one else could level up to her play on the court. That just shows her dominance
@@gregorydunston2952 dude look up the facts. She has 73 titles in singles, Martina 167. Margaret court has over 70 grand slams if u combine all of it. Her weeks at number one trail graf DESPITE playing for 10 more years. Cut this out
Steffi Graf is the greatest woman tennis player of all time
The best Serena can do all time in TENNIS is 4th (If you stupidly want to combine it with the men's game).
The men's game has more depth than the women's game, and Nadal, Federer and Djokovic have won 20 slam while two whole other people in their same era won a combined 40+.
If you think Serena is the greatest TENNIS player (forget overall athlete) of all time you're suffering from one or more of the following: being American; rooting for her because she's a woman/black woman; ignorant about tennis; purposefully being disingenuous or just a plain stupid.
"Bob Cousy > Serena Williams" -Mad Dog
Blake is out of his mind
There is LESS depth now thanthere was in the 70s - 90s. Serena's competition did nothing even when Serena was absent. She lucked into the easiest schedule ever.
Martina, Seles, Evert... Serena's competition in the 2010s: Kerber, Sharapova,... She faced good players but she didn't face top 10 players all time in the 2010s.. 2000s, she had tough competition and only won a few GS titles.
Lindsey Davenport, Justine Henin, Jennifer Capriati, Martina Hingis, Kim Clijsters, Venus, of these were all former #1 that she faced early in her career, not even including all the former number #1’s she faced later in her career and you’re trying to say her competition was easy? Get a clue…
@@Paulafan5 she won 10 majors after age 30 no female player is even close. And in this decade she had an embolism and won a major while pregnant.
That's the thing about the competition Serena has faced late in her career: she CREATED it. She inspired it. She's beaten girls that grew up watching her at a rate that no champion has before. And that competition she inspired goes *beyond* the women's side: Kyrgios and Tiafoe for example. That's why, for me, removing the qualifier of "female" is important, because of her cross-gender impact. So focusing on her not having had to have played Evert, Martina or Seles is far too narrow a viewpoint to take on this.
No tennis player will argue against Serena’s GOAT status! She revolutionized the sport! It’s not even the same skill, speed, and power!
women goat not overall goat.
So MJ ain’t the goat then? Cause it’s not the same Skill, speed and Power as it was back then also. It’s much more improved
False!
@@tomyabo5606 what woman besides her sister hit with Serena’s Velocity and power before her?
Man you tripping I watched Stephie Graf play and what she did in her 10 year span was more impressive, she would beat Serna, I'm a brown brother who use to watch her monica seles , they wasn't any better than Stephie Graf y'all need to do some research instead of being emotional
Serena vulgar in her demeanor against the umpire at the US open.
The Maria Sharapova crowd now wants to devalue everything Serena has done... The depth of field and the physical nature of the game is different!!!
Everyone they mentioned is great but, the ESPN Generation can't just say that and walk away!
Blake just devalued the other legends just to put up Serena
All the coulda should woulda with Graf & Seles os tiring, doesn’t matter because their head to head speak for itself and it’s not Grafs fault Seles got stabbed.
Also if Graf didn’t retire at 30 she “could shoulda woulda” won more slams.
James you had me until you said she can be compared to Tiger woods. I agree that Serena is the women's tennis GOAT in that she had the wins and helped transcend the sport, open new doors for new players in the way Tiger did, but Tigers transcendence was more transformational to the sport than Serena.
Yes and no..as a women she can only do so much because men are better so she can never be best at her sport. But using that qualifier she is tiger woods
@@xavierb9061 well said
I disagree with that. Serena transformed womens tennis with a power game it had never seen before. Look at how most players played before Serena and after. It has become a power game now. The game looks completely different since Serena came in, far different than what Martina, Chrissie, and Steffi played.
@@chriskay1449 do you think she transformed Tennis to the level that Tiger transformed golf?
@@lairdhercules4553 Womens tennis? Absolutely. She increased womens prize money as Tiger did for golf. Serena brought more people of color into the game as did Tiger. Serena brought equality in prize money to the men. Womens golfers still get far less than the men.
The argument about athleticism always giving Serena the edge. Hello please watch Graf and her speed and footwork on a side by side with Serena. Graf clearly is the mor athletic. Serena is more powerful overall but not on forehand side. Also Serena beat Venus in numerous finals to win a Slam. What a huge advantage that is. To play someone you train day in ad day out with. All these GOAT conversations are ridiculous. They are iconic players who each have individual attributes that set them apart from others. James Blake I have to say makes the least compelling argument in Serena’s favor of all of the people I have heard , he himself was so overrated as a player.
Wow he's salty on serena but it's ok because he's wrong
Nah he is right lol.
Smh Stephen A always interrupting somebody. Can't keep his mouth shut for more than 2 minutes
You cant compare the game now to the game that 20 -30 years ago.Its like the NBA,the players are much much more talented than 20 years ago.Stephe was a monster in her era but there's many monsters in Serena era.
20-30 years ago isn’t that long ago man. Back then in the nba, we still have the GOAT PG (magic), the GOAT SG (MJ), GOAT PF (take your pick between bird or Duncan), and maybe not your GOAT center but 2 of the most athletically gifted/physical centers we have ever seen in history (the dream and Shaq). Jordan still has one of the highest verticals ever recorded along with wilt chamberlains (who was also an old timer). Just look at the top 10 list of highest verticals, at least 4 on that list was of players 20-30 years ago. And as mad dog said, 4 of the history’s biggest monsters - Martina, seles, Everett, and Graf - their careers overlapped. There were no monsters in Serena’s generation.
Women's tennis hasn't changed all that much. To Mad Dog's point, the talent actually hasn't improved
The players were talented in all eras, the difference is today's medicine and sports nutrition is better, if they had the same back then, it would be very similar, if that's the case then we should go by the numbers
James’ point is totally not valid. It’s not like Roger Federer and Rafael nadal are also tennis players, and it’s not because they’re men. They are just better.
One of the best *WOMAN* Athletes, there’s a difference. Roger federer would beat her with one hand
James was really looking at Mad Dog like is this man serious right now lmao
😂😂😂
Mad dog wiped the floor with him
@@mayankingrevisited8815 no he did not lol
@@boblansonfig3972 facts over emotions
@@mayankingrevisited8815 nah , I’d rather take the word from someone who actually played lol Mad dog’s takes are common across all sports . He’s an old head and typically ranks players of his time the greatest , it’s not a coincidence lol and his viewpoint represents the minority . When you talk about the GOAT of tennis or even bring up the top greatest athletes ever , Serena Williams is always brought up for a reason .
No female has plays the game as extensively and superbly as Serena. The game she plays supersede all past and present players. No ifs or butts!
Steffi is in first place in weeks ranked #1. And weeks ranked #1 is not a popularity contest or voted on. The players have to earn points through wins at tournaments. Martina is in second place and Serena is in a distant 3rd place. Serena will never beat Steffi or Martina in this record. NEVER. Also Serena has 39 total grand slams, singles, doubles, and mixed. MARG has 64 total grand slams!!!!! And before you rebut with open era vs pre-open era bs, MARG beat all those same players that missed the tournaments pre-open era, in the open era. It wouldn't have mattered who showed up, she annihilated the field. Serena and her fans are chasing 24 singles championships, why? Why because MARG has 24. Thus Serena validates MARG's record
Stephen A looking around like why are we talking about tennis😂
u know there are more sports besides basketball and football right?
@@aliikram673 yeah of course there are dickhead. Doesn't mean those other sports are entertaining at all though.
I like how they make it sound like Steffi only played 10 yrs because she only won in that period! More like 1982-1999‼️‼️‼️
Steffi is first place for weeks ranked #1, then Martina and then in a very distant 3rd place is Serena. This is a very important record when ranking players' dominance of their era.
@@joehalliday6081 no it’s really not. Serena did not play as many tournaments as these other women did so she wasn’t always number 1 in points when she won slams.
@@thatisnottrue you just validated my point. Serena gave up on the strategy of trying to break Steffi's record of weeks #1 and decided to cherry-pick Grand Slams and tournaments preparing her for a slam. In doing so she avoided injuries, mental burnout, and exhaustion. She “gamed” the system to try and break MARG’s record of 24 singles gs. Do you know how many total gs, including singles, doubles, and mixed doubles Serena has? The answer is 39. MARG has 64 total gs. Not close!
@@joehalliday6081 Do you even know you’re own points. You first said that number 1 was the show of dominance of their era which I countered by saying more tournaments played to get number 1 does not mean someone is mor dominant. Then you said Serena gave up going for the record of weeks at number 1 which makes no sense because it never seemed like a goal so how could she give up? Then you went on to talk about Margaret Court who holds the most slams of all time but not in the open era but you specifically talked about the open era in your original post. You are all over the place sir. By your logic are you saying that Margaret Court is the best tennis player of all time? Also, it is more of a feat to win a grand slam not at number 1 because the number 1 has arguably an easier road than someone in a lower ranking. Lastly, Serena has missed a lot of time due to injury or medical problems (like almost dying) so again, what are you talking about?
@@thatisnottrue record holder at weeks at number 1 shows grit, ability to play hurt, burned out, exhausted and still prevail. Serena could have continued the grind but she was exhausted, getting injured and mentally checking out. She said so in many interviews, so she chose to focus on slams thereby giving her a greater chance than steffi to rack up slam numbers toward steffi’s 22. She had said this repeatedly, she just focused on slams. So how to say who is goat going purely by slams if the players took different approaches. My point is steffi chose the grind, dominanted the weeks ranked #1, by far and has only one fewer singles slams as serena who quit the grind to play slams. Clearly that does not make serena the goat.
I hate these woke an PC warriors declaring Serena a GOAT in any sport male or female, she has openingly admitted she wont win a point vs the top guys, lost to a player ranked 200 or something he was smoking between change overs etc, then beat venus straight after just as comfortably...its a nature thing people, it not illegal to state the obvious. It iust geting a bit tiresome now at this stage. Women's tennis, there can be a great debate with Martina and Steffi, that is it over, finished Not mens tennis which is a different sport or any other sport, ridiculous.
THANK YOU, for saying that, Serena did it all while having a target on her back, black athletes have it twice hard being heckled while playing and people threatening to harm you.
Black athletes do not have it twice as hard, and if heckling stops you then you are not much of an athlete. Serena gets points for making it due to her upbringing, but then again, she also competes against people who grew up in actual war zones, not the manufactured ones in american cities.
As much as I don't like Novac as a player, he came from a war torn country. Training while his city was bombed as a child. Spare me the "Serena had it hard" speech.
She was heckled in 1995? And not since? YOu are sheepishly repeating a bullsh*t narrative that does not relate to anything. Go back under your rock. It is 2022.
blake they talk about her more now because it is ALL MARKETING TO SELL MORE RUNNING SHOES back during steffi it was ABOUT TENNIS...Serna should have retired long ago like steffi, sampras, bjorg,henin who left on top not linger around to sell more running shoes..another is fedsqaush same thing more marketing to sell running shoes when Fed has had Zero chance in 5 years..Steffi is GOAT 22 slams in half the time as serena, held on all 4 titles in calender year along wiht Olympic gold and way more accomplished players to beat..
The female tennis GOAT is so hard and competitive. You have King, Navratilova, Graf, Serena, and seles before the stabbing. And Sabatini before the drugs. I never agree with Mad Dog but the womens tennis GOAT is contested no matter who you go with.
Steffi is in first place in weeks ranked #1, then Martina and then Serena in a distant 3rd place. This record reveals the dominance of Steffi. Also, MARG has to be mentioned in the debate. MARG has 64 total grand slams, including singles, doubles, mixed. Serena has 39. And don't clap back with the pre open era bs. All the players that weren't in the tournaments pre open era? MARG annihilated them in the open era. So her pre open era wins are all valid. Why else would Serena be chasing 24 gs in singles? Because MARG's record is valid.
It's a Serena, Graff, Evert, Navratilova conversation.
Steffi's the most dominant. Serena is the BEST. If I had to pick a women's player in her ABSOLUTE prime, I'm taking Serena all day every day.
@@chiefnama790 serena couldn’t win one match playing with a wooden frame racquet. She doesn’t have the dkills and eould lose to MARG 6-0, 6-0
@@joehalliday6081 don't care about wooden rackets NO one does. She's the greatest female tennis player EVER.
@@chiefnama790 you missed the point didn’t you? People are commenting that serena would easily beat MARG. My point is that different era’s require different skills and the training, diet, and equipment have changed. So it is idiotic to put MARG into a match today just like it is nonsense to have Serena play a wooden frame racquet. She would lose every game. Similarly, federer, nadal and djok worship their bodies, with highly regimented nutrition and training regimens. Compare those champions to McEnroe, borg and nastasie who partied all through the night, went to the slam final with no sleep, still buzzed and won championships eating hamburgers. Times change. It is childish thinking to say Serena would beat MARG. You could say that about nearly every player in the last 20 years. And in 20 years, there will be a player that people say could beat Serena easily. She will be 6’9” compared to Serena’s smallish 5’9” and have a serve averaging 125 mph compared to Seren’s lingering 105 mph. That ‘s just how time advances. None go backwards. Look at golf. Players now can hit the ball more than 300 yards routinely. 40 years ago with wooden “woods” hence the name, it was unheard of to hit the ball 300 yards. So serena is not the goat. A GOAT has to so dominate their era, the have a plethora of records set during their playing years. That is the only valid way to compare different era’s. The “eye ball test” is for fools that don’t understand the bigger perspective of the passage of time and changes to equipment, training, etc. don’t fall into that naive narrative.
aint no comparing they all are legends in there on way but than again each of dem have there own decade & eras ....
They tryna get everybody ta debate mad dog on this conversation, he knows his tennis.
I feel like Mad Dog may have an unconscious bias
He is right about SG
People don't discuss the huge impact that the modern rackets have had on the game. That is why it is unfair to compare the 70s 80s eras to today's tennis.
The mad dog knows history and we learn some of that from him
Wouldn’t even know tennis was a mainstream sport if it wasn’t for Serena lol she literally one of the only one most people who don’t follow the sports know
That doesn't make her the greatest TENNIS player though.
I don't usually get him or like his take but I actually get Mad dog's points! I felt like back in that Seles, Martina, Steffi era there were a lot of top women compared to now in comparison to who Serena played.
Yah, a lot of women players now are so inconsistent. They win a slam, then thats it. Serena is very consistent
Remember Serena played all three and did well against them, even when she went onto win her first slam.
I love how people just rewrite history. Steffi was 6-4 against Monica before the stabbing and finished with a 10-5 H2H against her, yet all I keep reading the last week is how Steffi was dominated by Monica. Really? So having a winning H2H against somebody is being dominated by that person? Well that makes sense doesn't it lol Come on people, I understand everybody hasn't been watching tennis for over 30 years like myself, but at least do your research before you just go and rewrite history to make your argument sound better
Could have added that Henin gave Serena a harder time than Seles gave Steffie!
Jason Whitlock has an excellent review of the debate about Serena being a non goat. Search "Why Serena Williams Ain’t the GOAT" on youtube. He cites facts, not woke opinion.
Except from 1990-93, seles was ascending and there was a sense of dread among graf fans. seles won 9 slams in that period (graf won 3), took the #1 ranking, was 3-1 against graf in slams (overall record 4-3). And seles NEVER PEAKED. She accomplished all of this as a teen facing graf was 22 and in her prime. She was only going to get better. A deranged graf fan that felt that dread took matters into his own hands, and we were denied perhaps the greatest womens player of all time.
Except from 1990-93, seles was ascending and there was a sense of dread among graf fans. seles won 9 slams in that period (graf won 3), took the #1 ranking, was 3-1 against graf in slams (overall record 4-3). And seles NEVER PEAKED. She accomplished all of this as a teen facing graf was 22 and in her prime. She was only going to get better. A deranged graf fan that felt that dread took matters into his own hands, and we were denied perhaps the greatest womens player of all time.
@@clee8019 Woulda, shoulda, coulda. EVERY story can be rewritten with hypotheticals. It's only the dumb that entertain such false logic.
Didn’t know steffi won 22 by 30 she def 🐐
29. She retired at 30.
Mad dog won me over, 22 in 10 years is massive
MARG gave birth to her first child in the OPEN ERA,1972, but returned to tennis later in the year and won three Grand Slam singles titles in 1973, the OPEN ERA.
If u look at Serena’s career she took a lot of time off. She need play 22-23 years 20 tournaments a year. Many years she only played the majors and many’s years she didn’t even play at all. Which is why she has been healthy into her 40’s. Serena has dominated tennis at its most competitive. She also has more slams. She is the GOAT. There is no debate.
Yea, she took a lot of time off due to her treating tennis as a side hustle. She is a businesswoman/ entrepreneur first and foremost. She never EARNED the GOAT status. That's why she is 5th overall in career single titles 👎
When was it “heated”?
We're not even allowed to have a conversation about who is actually the GOAT in women's tennis? Graf beats her in every category except GS titles, but Graf had to retire early due to injuries. She was still 3rd ranked player in the world even with injuries; she was that good. Healthy, Graf wins 25 GS titles by age 35 easily.
Graf was a beast of an athlete. Her footwork was second to none. Let alone she was playing world championship style tennis at the same time of the East West Germany situation.
IF
Serena won whilst pregnant and came back from some awful injuries like the lacerated tendon in her foot and took her out of the game for a year not to mention the birth of her child which led to an emergency C section and an emergency operation to remove a blood clot from her lung. My point is without these factors and having to rival her sister all records would have been long since broken and it wouldn't even be a debate
All this chatter and GRAF said SERENA was the greatest of all time
It’s crazy Steffi gets credit for stopping with injuries but Serena doesn’t get for winning a major pregnant and fighting through injuries to compete in her later years. The truth is just like most tennis players Steffi game declined after 96. Only winning 1 major the last few years. The writing was on the wall. Serena has been able to compete older because her power and serve. If Serena relied on youth and mobility she would have tapered sooner and left in her early 30’s also! For gods sake she just beat the number 2 player in the world at 41 coming off a serious injury! What are we debating!🤣
Serena Williams is not better than Steffi Graf, man. Comon people.
Most of yall thats saying serena is the goat is the type to watch golf only when tiger is playing and say he is the goat. I take stock into fans and analysts that has seen more than one player play
Tiger IS THE GOAT
How dare u compare Serena to Tiger woods, MJ, Mohammed Ali, Lebron...........???????
Who is this poor man's Skip Bayless?
He’s been around longer than Skip.
You don’t know enough sports shows if you asking that question lol. His also in MLB the show 22 as a reporter. His been around for awhile so if anything you just clowned yourself on the lack of knowledge of sport reporters.
I've been listening to him since 1989 when I was 10 years old when he was apart of Mike and the Maddog in NY
@@HollowHornBear415 you mean the guy that's mostly on radio. Thats why I've never heard of him because apparently the two of you are dinosaurs. Skip is more relevant and you know it.
@@cesarhands2930 nope just actually watch more sport shows then you and he is on this show all the time so you obviously don’t know what you are talking about 🤡.
They had to bring some woke guy to try and refute Mad Dog’s point. How dare Mad Dog claim Serena is not the best of all time? 😂 Having a different point of view this days makes you a bigot 😂
mad dog is a washed up nobody
@@ynot7119 Regardless of your ad hominem attack it doesn’t change the fact that he has a valid point.
Stefi over Serena at least in character.
What's wrong with her character? Do u know graff personally or what u see on tv or in interviews
Goat not sure don’t know Tennis like that but recognizable for sure