2012 town and country, 3.6L pentastar, had this EXACT same thing happen. I actually did the job twice because I only could afford the new rockers even though the cam shaft was damaged slightly. I changed the actual bad rockers and reassembled with no issues. Came back a month later to change the damaged cam and ended up laying a magnetized screw driver on the magnet wheel on the cam I wasn't changing. Reassembled and got the error. Did all the tests and finally looked a picture I took during the work and realized I had a screw driver on the wheel. Grabbed the screw driver and it easily could pickup several bolts on it, so very strong magnetic field. Changed out that cam and problem went away. So might not have intentionally done it, but the magnetic timing wheel is very likely jacked up on your cam. Imho.
Makes sense that if that wheel loses it's magnetism, it would give bogus sensor readings. The same way wheel speed sensors give bogus readings when the magnetic strip breaks or loses it's magnetic charge.
Sometimes a permanent magnet can be re magnetized by wrapping as much wire as possible around the magnet and quickly connect the coil of wire to a 12 volt battery for just a one-time spark. This is how permanent magnets are magnetized at the factory. This may or may not work in this situation. 🤔
@@GaryH-pw9cm I've seen that and done it to screwdrivers to magnetize them. You have to be quick about not leaving the wire coil connected too long though since it's a short across the battery. Just quick zaps will do. If you leave it connected too long you risk serious burns to your fingers or hands and a very hot melted wire to deal with. Also, do not use very thin wire for the coil because it will burn up quickly due to the current flowing through it. I had to toss that in there for a safety note to anyone who hasn't tried it before or will try it when they read it here. Be careful when shorting a wire coil across a battery.
The fact that Ray let a customer use one of his personal vehicles shows the kinda guy he is. Keep up the excellent work Ray you’ll figure this out shortly 🤘🏻
@@forgetfulme1719 This Cat is already Black Belt and this is one reason I don't work on these new cars. Last time I turned a wrench we had Points under the distributor caps. .Many moons ago.
There are 2 other things that could damage magnets: 1. Heat, if you used a torch on any bolts at any point, heating the tone ring would have demagnetized it, you don't have to get it red hot. 2. Sharp impact, (not critiquing your work) hitting the tone ring with a tool or dropping the entire camshaft on the floor, would also demagnetize the tone ring. BEFORE you pull timing covers or do ANYTHING else, grab a 4-channel Pico, and hook up to all four signal wires from each individual cam sensor element, so you have 2 known good and 2 known bad signals, you might see, not only an abnormal pattern, but a rhythmic abnormal pattern, suggesting a demagnetized tone ring on both bank 2 cams.
As unlikely a colab as it might be given the time constraints, Ray should invite Wes from WatchWesWork - Wes loves his Pico scope, and he was the first mechanic I thought of when you mentioned a Pico.
Ray, pull the valve cover off and check the material on the reluctor wheel. You need to check that because on modern fca motors, the magnetic material can come off the wheel. Take the valve cover off and roll the motor by hand. You may have knocked the material off of a spot or two and not realized it. This is actually most common on jeep/ dodge ecodiesels. The material comes off the crank reluctor and causes a code for the crank position sensor. It can also happen on the cam reluctors. I bet you damaged the tone wheel by accident and didnt realize it. CHECK THE TONE WHEELS.
I have worked on a couple of them but I'd say the cam is the issue. I know the old saying if it's not broke don't fix it but given all the work I would never not replace the cams for this very reason. I am afraid your looking at tearing it back apart again. I hope I'm wrong.
Ray, a fellow tech here. I've run into this problem several times here in RI And Maine. Trust me. You can test and test. Replace the reluctor wheel. Somehow they lose "magnetism" in the right area. As I said. Timing was always correct etc. common issue believe it or not.
I'm working on one where I'm fighting P0394 and it's NOT the cam, wheel, CPS, phaser, or actuator because I replaced all of that with known good parts. It's also not the galley plugs nor is it a chain issue. I'm about to give up and declare it's some kind of internal oil problem in the rear head. Any suggestions?
@@promastersonly1419Throw an oscilloscope on all 4 signals. Bank 1 Intake and Bank 2 intake and exhaust should match exactly. If they don’t, you got a problem. I’ve heard that at times people buy new cam shafts and they have an issue because they weren’t stored properly. This article (Magnetoresistive CMP Case Study and Service Caution) has the known good waveforms. Very legit site but you’ll have to pay the member fee most likely to see the images. One thing that must warn you about, however, is that the article has the intake and exhaust cam signals mixed up in terms of labeling on all fronts. Bottom line is that both intakes and both exhaust cam signals should match. Good luck.
@@craigcraigster4999Eric O is a master himself but he brung Ivan on for a Mitsabishi Eclipse that had some crazy issues. Either one of these guys are great but Ivan is just crazy good on the scope
These vids are made in a workshop, not studio. Noiseless workshop environment feels alien, especially so if noise is an essential part of finding/diagnosing/confirming issues. Noise canceling adds some audio distortion which I don't appreciate that much.
I'm impressed that someone of Ray's caliber isn't too proud to ask for help. I know nothing about cars, but based on the description given, my money is on the cam magnet.
1. I remember Ivan had a very similar issue where the tone wheel shifted on the camshaft. I've also seen the magnetic material wipe off the wheel. 2. Audio is much better.
Hi Ray, I am a retired EE and have seen this problem in other systems. There are usually three suspects. The pickup is too far from the magnetic field. A depth gauge can reveal a tolerance Stack Up issue. The next issue is wiring resistance. The signal is very small and any impedance in the wiring or connectors cann't be correctley read by the processor (ECM). The last item is the processor itself. On most systems the small signal is Amplified (in the ECM) before it is processed. The correct Level is determined by a automatic gain control circuit (AGC). Sometimes saome or all these signal losses can stack up leading to a incorrect reading by the processor.
asking for help when in unknown territory is the correct option! over passing it off or braking some thing or redoing the job when it is not necessary! it is too bad that dealers will not help outsiders! good luck hope it all workes out for you and the owner.
Only 7 minutes in and I wanted to say how much I love the trouble shooting videos Ray, I love a mystery that needs to be solved… it’s all ZEN on this episode!😎👍 Carry on master.✌🏼
Ivan had a very similar experience. Please put crank to TDC. Verify chains marks on Bank 1 and 2. Count the number of links between the cams on 1 and 2. In all data is the number of links you should have. You may be 1 link off and may not look like it. If you have a PICO scope now you can compare the signal length and alignment between banks 1 and 2.
Hi Ray, Calling for help is not a failure when you're stumped. Not calling for help is a problem. When you run into a wall and are all out of options, calling for help is smart. Don't beat yourself up so bad. You're doing what any other mechanic would do. You're a smart guy and I enjoy your channel. Keep up the good work and work your pretty wife into more of your episodes.
If you need to de-magnetize a tool...screwdriver etc....get a Weller soldering iron, turn on high heat then pass the magnetized tool through the two copper leads of the Weller soldering tip. Pass the tool back and forth while holding the Weller on high heat and that will degauss (de-magnetize) the tool....works great!
Respect Ray! Being prepared to "Ask a Friend" is a sign of a very wise person! Anyone can be overconfident and refuse to admit when they are stumped but a truly wise person will stop and ask for help or at least get suggestions if they get stuck instead of pushing on and probably making it worse. Well Done! Sorry have never seen a Pentastar in any cars ive worked on Down under .. not sure if they are common here, so cant offer anything but a pat on the back and encouragement. Any news on the other Pentastar project? oh and the sound is terrific with the new mic!
Ask a friend is a great, but you need to choose your friends carefully! I know nothing about Pentastars, and I’m not afraid to admit it. If left to my own knowledge base, I’d rotate the tires, retorque all the lug nuts, put a heavy coat of wax on the clutch, grease the brake pads, and flush the stale blinker fluid. Regarding the new mic, ever since I lost my hearing, my cars run more quietly and your audio sounds great!
Ask a friend is a great, but you need to choose your friends carefully! I know nothing about Pentastars, and I’m not afraid to admit it. If left to my own knowledge base, I’d rotate the tires, retorque all the lug nuts, put a heavy coat of wax on the clutch, grease the brake pads, and flush the stale blinker fluid. Regarding the new mic, ever since I lost my hearing, my cars run more quietly and your audio sounds great!
Those crankshaft tone rings are known to slip a bit. We had one in for the same thing this week, wasn't my job but apparently it's a known issue with them.
Ray you are such an awesome individual. It's rare that someone in your situation has the humility to reach out for help when it's appropriate. Good man :)
You really need an oscilloscope, Ray. Since this time you had to loan out Wife Unit's mini van, maybe this is the right time to get approval for acquiring a good automotive oscilloscope with some basic accessories. A scope capture would tell you what's wrong, just by comparing the signals bank-to-bank, or even comparing to that other Pentastar you had there.
I like the old microphone because it allows other noises. I like to hear what's going on around you. The people talking, the engine running, the lifts, and the glug glug of the fluids. My $.02
The cylinder head designs were changed around 2013 and the cylinder head warranties were extended on the designs of some 2013 cylinder heads and all earlier heads because of a design problem. I think what may be going on here is that you used new heads from a newer PentaStar for your PentaStar that the PCM is not programmed for and there were slight changes and this could be contributing to your codes because of the difference in the cylinder heads. Circuit codes usually indicate a wiring fault but not in your case and that is why you can't make sense of this. Also what happens is sometimes the tone rings (because they are pressed onto the cams) move slightly. Pine Hallow Auto Diagnostics here on RUclips has found quite a number of these and made video about it on his channel.
It's the exhaust cam phasers not locked when the engine starts up Guaranteed 💯 Just fixed this on my wife's VW Routan Mopar doesn't have any cam phasers in stock what's that tell you🤔 David Pike of motor city mechanic has a good vid on this problem
You will need an oscilisope to see whats happening with the timing , speak to Ivan at Pine hollow he will have the readings and may be able to give you a copy so you can see what to look for.
Not a tech, I work in engineering. But two things I would do. 1. check your actual values vs requested values AT Different loads. It could be off a tooth and the cam phaser is compensating at low idle, but dosn't have the range to compensate under load. 2. put a scope on the different cams and look at the wave forms that would show if the reluctor wheel is damaged.
You are on the right track and you took the right approach. Did all of the simple stuff first and now you are hesitant on the major things. If there is nothing simple left to try, don't hesitate. Get in there and fix it, unless second shift is coming in to do it.
It's giving a code of intermittent signal, so go off that info, it's something to do with the reluctant ring. The sensors are working, its just a hall effect sensor. If one or more of those magnets are compromised then it won't get a clean signal. The pcm can fill in the missing pulses but when the engine changes state quickly, it can't make those adjustments quickly, hence the low power output.
I know you will track down this issue, you have excellent diag. I understand why you want to verify which direction to go, and not jump to any possible conclusion. I have no hands-on with these modern engines, so I'd probably be like the proverbial bull in a china shop on them and mess up one of those camshaft magnets my first time working on one. I share your confidence in Dave's abilities too. I look forward to seeing the resolution to this issue. I have read most of the comments here, and I'm definitely out of my element on solving this one.
Not sure if someone has already said it - but if you have access to an oscilloscope or know someone you can borrow one from - probing into the signal wires for B2S1 and B2S2 (pins 1 and 4) and then comparing that waveform to the known good B1S1 and B1S2 can go a long way to help diagnose the problem. If there is a discrepancy between them then the magnetic part of the cams were probably damaged. They can be very delicate and easy to mess with the magnetic fields so it's entirely possible this van might need some new cams. Using the scope you can also probably figure out if you only need 1 cam or both for that bank. Best of Luck! - A student in a MOPAR CAP school
Ray, the sensor has 2 output signals. Each giving pulses picked-up from the rotation of their respective encoder wheel. So 4 wires: 5 VDC, GND, output 1 & output 2. You will need a multi-channel scoop to see the relationship between the 2 signals. Found this detailed explanation: The 3.6L has four separate Camshafts that the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) requires positional information from. There are two Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensors on the 3.6L, each CMP Sensor consists of four circuits. The sensors are located on the top end of each valve cover, closest to the transmission side of the engine. The CMP Sensor is an integrated circuit sensing device and on the end of each Camshaft is a magnetic encoder that is programmed with a magnetic pattern. The PCM provides a 5-Volt supply and a sensor ground circuit to the CMP Sensor and the CMP Sensor provides two Camshaft positional signals, the intake and exhaust camshaft position, to the PCM. The sensor detects the magnetically encoded information, a series of magnetic peaks and valleys, from the encoder. As each Camshaft rotates, the magnetic encoded pattern passes by the CMP Sensor creating a changing magnetic field at the sensor face. The changing magnetic field is interpreted by the sensor electronics and a digital output, ON/OFF or HIGH/LOW pattern, is produced. The length of the pulse widths generated by the CMP varies in size based on the velocity of the Camshaft. The PCM decodes the digital pattern to identify the Camshaft position. The information from each individual Camshaft along with the Crankshaft information is used to control and sequence the Variable Valve Timing (VVT) system and fuel injection events. Hope the very sensitive encoder wheels are not shifted or magnet damaged. Good luck and greetings from Greece.
Seems like the first non-invasive step, if as others have said the magnets are not functioning or misaligned, you will see that with a lack of signal. You probably could use a magnet to test the sensors sensitivity to a magnet or the sensor swap proved that.
Yep. Can get away with a 2 channel scope for output 1and 2 as 5V is assumed. PicoScope is a USB plug in to your PC. Cost effective and high quality. 10MHz BW is plenty.
One thing you need to consider you were talking about demagnetizing the rings on them while you got to realize all of your flashlights have magnets in them all of your magnetic trays have magnets in them speakers any thing that you may use for speakers for your RUclips stuff they have magnets in them so if you happen to set one of your magnetic flashlights near one of the cams you could have a very well demagnetized it
The chains you see at the cams do not go to the crankshaft, but to a intermediate pulley. So the chance of the crank b jumping is minimal. One of the camshaft is probably out or the cam is damaged. Occasionally the relucter wheel can get damaged or spin on the cam. Pull the valve cover off and get the motor to tdc and confirm the timing. You should have 12 pin between the marks on the camshaft. It's not unusual for one to be off and the Chrysler computer not set a correlation code. Double check with all data on the pin count, it's mentioned in the repair procedure for the timing chains. I'm not a Chrysler tech but I've done plenty of work on these motors including all the timing chains
I can confirm Chrysler computers not throwing correlation codes. I had a 2.5L Jeep Wrangler that wouldn't start. Couldn't figure it out, it would kill spark while cranking. Timing belt looked perfect. Was thinking it was the crank sensor, but when I got an oscilloscope and was able to see the signal, it was fine. Turned out the timing belt HAD jumped I think two teeth, yet was totally undamaged and tight. But it never set a cam/crank correlation code. Would have been much easier if it had. Learn something new every day.
Ivan from pine hollow would tell you that you need a osciliscope to properly diagnose this. I would agree. Seeing the actual signals the computer is seeing is what you really need. @@RainmanRaysRepairs
I'd look at the magnetic cam sensor wheels first. Anything metal or even one of the shop light magnets touching it could have screwed up the magnetic charge on the sensor wheel causing it to give weird readings to the engine ECU.
There is a bolt on each head behind the timing components that is in the oil galley that feeds the vvt…. It backs out on its own sometimes to even where it falls out… if it gets lose it can give you these codes.
Yep…..this is way above my head! So I’ve basically learned from this video that the timing chain replacement job that my 05 trailblazer needs done is not something I should attempt to do myself! So it’ll be the tedious task of trying to find a mechanic that would do the job and not rip me off!
An oscilloscope on the signal wire is the proper way to diagnose this. Compare it to the signal waveform from the good cam sensor. You can pick up a two-channel chinesium scope for less than $150.
Yup, looks like a learning opportunity. From what i'm hearing , this tone wheel is a bit of a sensitive wee soul. I'd break out the multi-scope and do some non-invasive comparative checks on the sensor outputs. It is plausible that the guff that was wiped off the tone wheel was actually masking an underlying issue with it. Alternatively it has slipped a tooth somehow, In either case you know you'll eventually have to open it up. Take it easy, deep breaths, stay calm and follow the data.
Ray, hate to say it, but you're gonna need camshafts. I say this because the camshaft magnets were picking up the metal in the oil like a differential magnet or a transmission pan magnet. And guess what Dave did? Wiped off the magnet, which means an erratic magnetic Hall Effect signal. What you could do is get the cams out, and spray the reluctor wheel with brake clean and see if one magnet is still dirtier than the others. However, I concur about the magnetic aspects of your flashlights possibly causing a demagnetizing issue. That said, more than likely, you're gonna have to get new cams to remedy the situation, given that the van idles fine, but no power above 1000 rpm. That tells me, along with that -38° timing, that the cam phasers are both worn to the same degree, and are not functioning properly, despite no oiling issues. Good luck.
If you've got a 'scope, can you look at the signals? I know you swapped the sensors and no change, so you know both sensors are good. So, if you compare the output signals from both sensors, you should be able to tell if it's the 'reluctor' on the camshaft itself.
How about putting a scope on the sensor sense wire to see if your getting the correct signal from the tone ring. also there might be a cam/crank relearn process that might be worth trying before you disassemble again.
sorry to hear it but that is why i like the older cars. the way they make the newer cars they make them to go bad soo quick and you always need to get pricy new parts to fix them years ago you could just clean up or out some of the parts and rebuild them not any more. and the vid sounded better. i do feel your pain but it is what it is. best of luck
Had the same problem Ray of the magnetic pickup and coating was damaged. Couldn’t see it and just replaced with new and all good. Hope this helps. Great diag by the way. 🇺🇸✌️
As I am not in the trade anymore but watch YT mechanical channels to keep up to date I like many suggest you get someone in your area who is expert with a PICO scope that will give you a non physical look at the cams data & that will tell you where to go next ,as others have said PHAD have had vehicles with the same problem That in my opinion will be your fastest & most precise way of determining what is faulty Cheers if you read this & I hope it is of use.
It's important to distinguish between a "reluctance sensor" and a "hall effect sensor". The former operates with a moving element (a toothed wheel) which is made of ferromagnetic material (eg. mild steel) but which is not magnetised; the wheel interacts with a magnetic field produced by the sensor itself, and the sensor detects that interaction. Unless you physically damage the wheel, just about the only way to stop this working properly is to induce a permanent magnetisation in the wheel, which in principle you should be able to remove by, for example, degaussing it. The latter operates with a moving element which is a multipole permanent magnet; the sensor directly senses the magnetic field which it produces. It is a very common part of a brushless DC motor, since a strong permanent magnet is an inherent part of the rotor. From what others are saying in the comments, the camshafts on this engine are fitted with magnets for this type of sensor, but they are a relatively delicate type of magnet rather than the powerful and robust type you'd use in a motor. The other thing I would try to check is the wiring harness from the ECU to that sensor. That's what the checklist is trying to tell you when it refers to shorts and opens. Getting a "good +5V" on a wire means nothing if it might be getting that +5V from a nearby wire that is also +5V. So disconnect the cable at BOTH ends, and check continuity and isolation that way - the way South Main does.
There is probably different names for the 2 types of hall effect sensors that come to mind. The one that you stated above, in the auto world, I would not consider a hall effect, though by definition it really is. A typical hall effect sensor, will have also have a stationary field or optic that is interrupted by a rotating element. The take Chrysler used here combined the rotating element and stationary field, producing the hall effect, but looks more like a reluctance sensor with a tone wheel. I haven't been in the auto field in years and not sure how common this rotating magnet type is. Since you did a good job at breaking down the sensors, are there different technical names for a rotating magnet type, vs the stationary magnet type with interruptions? By theory they are doing the exact same thing.
@@pud469 A "hall effect sensor" is a very specific type of magnetic sensor which relies on, as the name suggests, the Hall Effect. This is the fundamental electromagnetic phenomenon of a potential difference resulting from a current perpendicular to a magnetic field, which tends to push that current to one side of the conductor. The standout feature of a hall-effect sensor is that it can detect static magnetic fields, not only changing ones. In a position-sensing application, it directly senses the poles of a magnet attached to the moving object. The magnet and the sensor are attached to *DIFFERENT* parts of the system - one (usually the magnet) on the rotor, the other (usually the sensor) on the stator. I would not expect a reluctance sensor to rely on a hall-effect sensor. Instead, I would expect it to do something like measure changes in the resonance frequency of a tuned electromagnetic circuit placed in the immediate vicinity of the toothed wheel, such that the teeth and only the teeth pass through the concentrated part of the magnetic field. Here, the magnet and the sensor are attached to *THE SAME* part of the system - in this case the stator - and the rotor component (the toothed wheel) is a passive device. Similar use of a moving ferromagnetic core to change an electromagnetic resonance frequency was the old-fashioned way to tune a radio.
Check the power and ground to the sensors and make sure it is giving proper voltage and ground. Be sure the cams all went back in their original locations. I think the bank 1 and bank 2 cams are different, but I don't remember if it was just exhaust cams that were different or what. Also, the magnetic ring at the back of the cams can become loose if you knock them around too much and might need "adjusting" but that is a job for Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics... The rings can slip forward or backwards. All in all, brand new cams will fix it as long as they are the correct ones and go in the correct places.
@@user-tb7rn1il3q it has 180k miles on it thats pretty good for a car. ill be lucky to get 100k out of my 23 bronco sport even tho i will never hit them kinda miles 50k in 10 years probly all i will put on it
I’ve actually dealt with this before. Had a handful of camshafts come in from Dodge that the magnetic tone wheel on the back of the camshaft had been damaged in some way. I had one more recently that got a timing job, no cam replacement. Afterwards the exact codes you’re displaying kept popping up. I got myself a strap wrench and physically moved the magnetic tone ring on the camshaft and that brought the actual angle to match the desired angle. Temporary fix for sure because Dodge wants you to replace the camshaft but this is how I was able to get several 3.6s back on the road.
He actually had a tone ring issue a couple of months ago... can't remember what car it was but he removed the sensor and you could see the "teeth" on the tone ring, including one that was missing.
Ray this is a prime candidate for the one thing I have never seen you do...Oscilloscope, 4 channels , crank, cam,cam,injector1 you should be able to see the timing and a dirty pickup signal. My gut reaction is pull the cover and fully check the basic timing, Start with the basics and prove its not that.
Hi Ray!Same thing happened on my brother's 2014 Ram 1500 with the 3.6. It turns out the one camshaft sensor connector had to be replaced. According to the wiring diagram for the Ram, the sensors share a ground. What we found was, the wires right at the connector had the insualation flaking off causing exposed wires on the signal and ground. They would intermittently touch setting the codes. On the truck, the bare wires were underneathe plastic wire loom just as the wires meet the connector. We ended up having to replace connector and both sensors. Apparently when the wires were touching, it took out the sensors. I did the same tests and it tested fine. The only thing I could come up with is the wires weren't touching during testing.
I would want to look at the sensors with a scope. You would see if the sensors are dropping out or have a weak signal. You should also be able to tell if the cams were timed correctly.
83rd! Happy Saturday morning Ray,Lauren,and your loyal mechanic Dave. Sounds much better. Engine rebuilding work is left for the professionals. I understand it, but would never attempt it myself. There are too many things that if it isn’t done correctly, could be catastrophic for the engine. Roger in Pierre South Dakota
Before you get into the mechanical side, make sure you have the correct 5 volts on 3 of the 4 pins of the cam sensor pig tail. Check both of them. And play with the wires to make sure there isn’t a problem. Yes, I see that you did, but did you pull on the wires? Also, it has been known to happen on these engines, that bank one sensor can be bad and show bank 2 also. Nothing is impossible with electrical components.
Scope your 12v and 5v buses and see if an ignition coil is bleeding to either. You'll see a little bump each time that coil fires , the ECU will mistake that for a cam signal and think the cam sensors are failing. Sometimes you can hear the failing coil when you turn on the AM radio.
I definitely hook up a Oscilloscope to the system. You got good know car with you and will be easy to figure out. Look for weak, jumpy, cut out and etc signals.
2012 town and country, 3.6L pentastar, had this EXACT same thing happen. I actually did the job twice because I only could afford the new rockers even though the cam shaft was damaged slightly. I changed the actual bad rockers and reassembled with no issues. Came back a month later to change the damaged cam and ended up laying a magnetized screw driver on the magnet wheel on the cam I wasn't changing. Reassembled and got the error. Did all the tests and finally looked a picture I took during the work and realized I had a screw driver on the wheel. Grabbed the screw driver and it easily could pickup several bolts on it, so very strong magnetic field. Changed out that cam and problem went away.
So might not have intentionally done it, but the magnetic timing wheel is very likely jacked up on your cam. Imho.
Makes sense that if that wheel loses it's magnetism, it would give bogus sensor readings. The same way wheel speed sensors give bogus readings when the magnetic strip breaks or loses it's magnetic charge.
Sometimes a permanent magnet can be re magnetized by wrapping as much wire as possible around the magnet and quickly connect the coil of wire to a 12 volt battery for just a one-time spark. This is how permanent magnets are magnetized at the factory.
This may or may not work in this situation. 🤔
@@GaryH-pw9cm I've seen that and done it to screwdrivers to magnetize them. You have to be quick about not leaving the wire coil connected too long though since it's a short across the battery. Just quick zaps will do. If you leave it connected too long you risk serious burns to your fingers or hands and a very hot melted wire to deal with. Also, do not use very thin wire for the coil because it will burn up quickly due to the current flowing through it. I had to toss that in there for a safety note to anyone who hasn't tried it before or will try it when they read it here. Be careful when shorting a wire coil across a battery.
@@GaryH-pw9cm I don't think that's an option here as the magnets are part of the wheel and not able to be separated.
@@Ghauster Exactly, and you stand a very good chance of screwing up some of the adjacent magnets on the wheel if you tried this method.
The fact that Ray let a customer use one of his personal vehicles shows the kinda guy he is. Keep up the excellent work Ray you’ll figure this out shortly 🤘🏻
Asking for help when you've run out of ideas is no sign of failure.
It's a sign of humility. Gains a huge amount of respect from me
You never stop learning.
Not asking for help is a sign.
its a sign of wanting to find out more and fix the customer's car.
I believe the saying is, "either you win, or you learn". You can't learn without failing and asking questions.
Don’t leave us hanging here, we need a quick update Ray!!
Did we get an update?! I'm late to the party
Ray does not make mistakes. Ray creates learning opportunities.
just buy the car from the customer, end of worry.
its what you get when you dont get what you want. Experience.
Happy little learning opportunity
@@wit6665 If he can fix this, he moves up one level, to mechanic black belt.
@@forgetfulme1719 This Cat is already Black Belt and this is one reason I don't work on these new cars. Last time I turned a wrench we had Points under the distributor caps. .Many moons ago.
There are 2 other things that could damage magnets:
1. Heat, if you used a torch on any bolts at any point, heating the tone ring would have demagnetized it, you don't have to get it red hot.
2. Sharp impact, (not critiquing your work) hitting the tone ring with a tool or dropping the entire camshaft on the floor, would also demagnetize the tone ring.
BEFORE you pull timing covers or do ANYTHING else, grab a 4-channel Pico, and hook up to all four signal wires from each individual cam sensor element,
so you have 2 known good and 2 known bad signals, you might see, not only an abnormal pattern, but a rhythmic abnormal pattern, suggesting a demagnetized
tone ring on both bank 2 cams.
As unlikely a colab as it might be given the time constraints, Ray should invite Wes from WatchWesWork - Wes loves his Pico scope, and he was the first mechanic I thought of when you mentioned a Pico.
Eric O is a good mechanic. He isn’t laughing at you.
Eric O Is the right guy to ask any questions to, you will get honest respectful answers
Ray, pull the valve cover off and check the material on the reluctor wheel. You need to check that because on modern fca motors, the magnetic material can come off the wheel. Take the valve cover off and roll the motor by hand. You may have knocked the material off of a spot or two and not realized it. This is actually most common on jeep/ dodge ecodiesels. The material comes off the crank reluctor and causes a code for the crank position sensor. It can also happen on the cam reluctors. I bet you damaged the tone wheel by accident and didnt realize it. CHECK THE TONE WHEELS.
was thinking the same thing. something is wrong with the magnets on the cam
This was one of my diagnostics too.
I have worked on a couple of them but I'd say the cam is the issue. I know the old saying if it's not broke don't fix it but given all the work I would never not replace the cams for this very reason. I am afraid your looking at tearing it back apart again. I hope I'm wrong.
I agree with checking the reluctor wheel had a very similar issue on a Jeep, material was jacked up.
at 9:30
Ray, a fellow tech here. I've run into this problem several times here in RI And Maine. Trust me. You can test and test. Replace the reluctor wheel. Somehow they lose "magnetism" in the right area. As I said. Timing was always correct etc. common issue believe it or not.
I'm working on one where I'm fighting P0394 and it's NOT the cam, wheel, CPS, phaser, or actuator because I replaced all of that with known good parts. It's also not the galley plugs nor is it a chain issue. I'm about to give up and declare it's some kind of internal oil problem in the rear head. Any suggestions?
@@promastersonly1419Throw an oscilloscope on all 4 signals. Bank 1 Intake and Bank 2 intake and exhaust should match exactly. If they don’t, you got a problem. I’ve heard that at times people buy new cam shafts and they have an issue because they weren’t stored properly. This article (Magnetoresistive CMP Case Study and Service Caution) has the known good waveforms. Very legit site but you’ll have to pay the member fee most likely to see the images. One thing that must warn you about, however, is that the article has the intake and exhaust cam signals mixed up in terms of labeling on all fronts. Bottom line is that both intakes and both exhaust cam signals should match. Good luck.
Ray, have you sorted this out yet? I can't find a follow-up video.
Audio better than yesterday, sounded like fighter jets were flying overhead sometimes.
You need a guest host for this one. Reach out to Ivan at Pine Hollow Diagnostics. This stuff is right up his alley.
I hope they collaborate some day! Ray would be a monster if he started using a scope as a primary diag tool.
Eric O. at SMA is another waveform master in these types of cases, a PicoScope guru if there ever was one. 😎
@@craigcraigster4999Eric O is a master himself but he brung Ivan on for a Mitsabishi Eclipse that had some crazy issues. Either one of these guys are great but Ivan is just crazy good on the scope
@KT66-Fanwhat is a pico scope 6? Lol thats the software the scope is a 4425A
Ivan would say put a scope on it! Beyond my capabilities.
Alex the car Doctor is the man for pentastar problems.
Is there a follow-up to this video? Even just a note in the description? Ray!!! Do not forsaken us!!! 🙂
Sydney Australia
THE AUDIO IS GOOD.
No need to yell. 😂
It sounds kind of "buzzy" to me... Although I guess that could be my TV in the camper.
These vids are made in a workshop, not studio. Noiseless workshop environment feels alien, especially so if noise is an essential part of finding/diagnosing/confirming issues. Noise canceling adds some audio distortion which I don't appreciate that much.
I'm impressed that someone of Ray's caliber isn't too proud to ask for help. I know nothing about cars, but based on the description given, my money is on the cam magnet.
Thanks Ray your sound is good now, best I heard so far, no background noise.
I wish I had the knowledge to help. I'm just a couch enthusiast mechanic. All I've learnt is from watching your videos. 😞
1. I remember Ivan had a very similar issue where the tone wheel shifted on the camshaft. I've also seen the magnetic material wipe off the wheel.
2. Audio is much better.
yes you are right
I remember that too. Wasnt the cam physically twisted? Not 100% sure.
PHAD is my favarite diagnostician
10 DAYS I NEED A FOLLOW-UP IM TWITCHIN OVER HERE!
I was thinking the same as others Pine Hollow or SMA . And asking for help is not failure but AWESOME . Show your a good Person and Mechanic
We need an update
Hi Ray, I am a retired EE and have seen this problem in other systems. There are usually three suspects. The pickup is too far from the magnetic field. A depth gauge can reveal a tolerance Stack Up issue. The next issue is wiring resistance. The signal is very small and any impedance in the wiring or connectors cann't be correctley read by the processor (ECM). The last item is the processor itself. On most systems the small signal is Amplified (in the ECM) before it is processed. The correct Level is determined by a automatic gain control circuit (AGC). Sometimes saome or all these signal losses can stack up leading to a incorrect reading by the processor.
asking for help when in unknown territory is the correct option! over passing it off or braking
some thing or redoing the job when it is not necessary! it is too bad that dealers will not
help outsiders! good luck hope it all workes out for you and the owner.
Audio is MUCH better
Right? No drop outs this whole video
Only 7 minutes in and I wanted to say how much I love the trouble shooting videos Ray, I love a mystery that needs to be solved… it’s all ZEN on this episode!😎👍
Carry on master.✌🏼
Ivan had a very similar experience. Please put crank to TDC. Verify chains marks on Bank 1 and 2. Count the number of links between the cams on 1 and 2. In all data is the number of links you should have. You may be 1 link off and may not look like it. If you have a PICO scope now you can compare the signal length and alignment between banks 1 and 2.
Hi Ray, Calling for help is not a failure when you're stumped. Not calling for help is a problem. When you run into a wall and are all out of options, calling for help is smart. Don't beat yourself up so bad. You're doing what any other mechanic would do. You're a smart guy and I enjoy your channel. Keep up the good work and work your pretty wife into more of your episodes.
Mic is much better than yesterday 🤙🏼
WTF........3 months no update? How rude!!!
So far the audio sounds great
If you need to de-magnetize a tool...screwdriver etc....get a Weller soldering iron, turn on high heat then pass the magnetized tool through the two copper leads of the Weller soldering tip. Pass the tool back and forth while holding the Weller on high heat and that will degauss (de-magnetize) the tool....works great!
Respect Ray! Being prepared to "Ask a Friend" is a sign of a very wise person! Anyone can be overconfident and refuse to admit when they are stumped but a truly wise person will stop and ask for help or at least get suggestions if they get stuck instead of pushing on and probably making it worse. Well Done! Sorry have never seen a Pentastar in any cars ive worked on Down under .. not sure if they are common here, so cant offer anything but a pat on the back and encouragement. Any news on the other Pentastar project? oh and the sound is terrific with the new mic!
Be thankful you don't have them. Defective straight out of the factory.
easy, just pay $$ to Mr Hollow to fly down to help, split the job labor income 50-50.
Ask a friend is a great, but you need to choose your friends carefully! I know nothing about Pentastars, and I’m not afraid to admit it. If left to my own knowledge base, I’d rotate the tires, retorque all the lug nuts, put a heavy coat of wax on the clutch, grease the brake pads, and flush the stale blinker fluid.
Regarding the new mic, ever since I lost my hearing, my cars run more quietly and your audio sounds great!
Ask a friend is a great, but you need to choose your friends carefully! I know nothing about Pentastars, and I’m not afraid to admit it. If left to my own knowledge base, I’d rotate the tires, retorque all the lug nuts, put a heavy coat of wax on the clutch, grease the brake pads, and flush the stale blinker fluid.
Regarding the new mic, ever since I lost my hearing, my cars run more quietly and your audio sounds great!
thankyou Ray,,and the mike works perfectly,what a great difference blocking background noise,,
👏👏👍
Those crankshaft tone rings are known to slip a bit. We had one in for the same thing this week, wasn't my job but apparently it's a known issue with them.
Ray you are such an awesome individual. It's rare that someone in your situation has the humility to reach out for help when it's appropriate. Good man :)
You really need an oscilloscope, Ray.
Since this time you had to loan out Wife Unit's mini van, maybe this is the right time to get approval for acquiring a good automotive oscilloscope with some basic accessories.
A scope capture would tell you what's wrong, just by comparing the signals bank-to-bank, or even comparing to that other Pentastar you had there.
I like the old microphone because it allows other noises. I like to hear what's going on around you. The people talking, the engine running, the lifts, and the glug glug of the fluids. My $.02
The cylinder head designs were changed around 2013 and the cylinder head warranties were extended on the designs of some 2013 cylinder heads and all earlier heads because of a design problem. I think what may be going on here is that you used new heads from a newer PentaStar for your PentaStar that the PCM is not programmed for and there were slight changes and this could be contributing to your codes because of the difference in the cylinder heads. Circuit codes usually indicate a wiring fault but not in your case and that is why you can't make sense of this. Also what happens is sometimes the tone rings (because they are pressed onto the cams) move slightly. Pine Hallow Auto Diagnostics here on RUclips has found quite a number of these and made video about it on his channel.
Sorry, I can't help, but I know the feeling. I'm sure you will get this sorted out quickly!
Appreciate all the content you provide!
Does anybody know the outcome? I can’t find a follow up video.
Check crack or separation on the tone ring. The polymer can separate. I’m not a tech but I had a very similar issue on 2010 Jeep JKU
Ivan had a Jeep Engine that the reluctor wheel was rotated on the camshaft over at Pine Hollow Auto Diag.
It's the exhaust cam phasers not locked when the engine starts up
Guaranteed 💯
Just fixed this on my wife's VW Routan Mopar doesn't have any cam phasers in stock what's that tell you🤔
David Pike of motor city mechanic has a good vid on this problem
You will need an oscilisope to see whats happening with the timing , speak to Ivan at Pine hollow he will have the readings and may be able to give you a copy so you can see what to look for.
the mic is awesome, no background noise
Not a tech, I work in engineering. But two things I would do. 1. check your actual values vs requested values AT Different loads. It could be off a tooth and the cam phaser is compensating at low idle, but dosn't have the range to compensate under load. 2. put a scope on the different cams and look at the wave forms that would show if the reluctor wheel is damaged.
much better audio. My friend who rebuilds engines for a living remarked check the computer. Best of luck,
It would be fun to see a Ray (Rainman Ray) Eric (South Main Auto) and Ivan (Pine Hollow AD) collaboration some time.
Without Question, that would be an AWESOME show. Heads would explode.
And Scotty Kilmer.
Would be great.
@@harrylumsdon6773 👍And Wrenching With Kenny.
@@utube4greenfutureUniverses colliding! The banter between Ray and Eric would be EPIC. 😄
You are on the right track and you took the right approach. Did all of the simple stuff first and now you are hesitant on the major things. If there is nothing simple left to try, don't hesitate. Get in there and fix it, unless second shift is coming in to do it.
It's giving a code of intermittent signal, so go off that info, it's something to do with the reluctant ring. The sensors are working, its just a hall effect sensor. If one or more of those magnets are compromised then it won't get a clean signal. The pcm can fill in the missing pulses but when the engine changes state quickly, it can't make those adjustments quickly, hence the low power output.
I know you will track down this issue, you have excellent diag. I understand why you want to verify which direction to go, and not jump to any possible conclusion. I have no hands-on with these modern engines, so I'd probably be like the proverbial bull in a china shop on them and mess up one of those camshaft magnets my first time working on one. I share your confidence in Dave's abilities too. I look forward to seeing the resolution to this issue. I have read most of the comments here, and I'm definitely out of my element on solving this one.
Audio sounds great
Not sure if someone has already said it - but if you have access to an oscilloscope or know someone you can borrow one from - probing into the signal wires for B2S1 and B2S2 (pins 1 and 4) and then comparing that waveform to the known good B1S1 and B1S2 can go a long way to help diagnose the problem. If there is a discrepancy between them then the magnetic part of the cams were probably damaged. They can be very delicate and easy to mess with the magnetic fields so it's entirely possible this van might need some new cams. Using the scope you can also probably figure out if you only need 1 cam or both for that bank. Best of Luck! - A student in a MOPAR CAP school
Ray, the sensor has 2 output signals. Each giving pulses picked-up from the rotation of their respective encoder wheel. So 4 wires: 5 VDC, GND, output 1 & output 2.
You will need a multi-channel scoop to see the relationship between the 2 signals.
Found this detailed explanation:
The 3.6L has four separate Camshafts that the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) requires positional information from. There are two Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensors on the 3.6L, each CMP Sensor consists of four circuits. The sensors are located on the top end of each valve cover, closest to the transmission side of the engine. The CMP Sensor is an integrated circuit sensing device and on the end of each Camshaft is a magnetic encoder that is programmed with a magnetic pattern. The PCM provides a 5-Volt supply and a sensor ground circuit to the CMP Sensor and the CMP Sensor provides two Camshaft positional signals, the intake and exhaust camshaft position, to the PCM. The sensor detects the magnetically encoded information, a series of magnetic peaks and valleys, from the encoder. As each Camshaft rotates, the magnetic encoded pattern passes by the CMP Sensor creating a changing magnetic field at the sensor face. The changing magnetic field is interpreted by the sensor electronics and a digital output, ON/OFF or HIGH/LOW pattern, is produced. The length of the pulse widths generated by the CMP varies in size based on the velocity of the Camshaft. The PCM decodes the digital pattern to identify the Camshaft position. The information from each individual Camshaft along with the Crankshaft information is used to control and sequence the Variable Valve Timing (VVT) system and fuel injection events.
Hope the very sensitive encoder wheels are not shifted or magnet damaged.
Good luck and greetings from Greece.
Seems like the first non-invasive step, if as others have said the magnets are not functioning or misaligned, you will see that with a lack of signal. You probably could use a magnet to test the sensors sensitivity to a magnet or the sensor swap proved that.
Yep. Can get away with a 2 channel scope for output 1and 2 as 5V is assumed. PicoScope is a USB plug in to your PC. Cost effective and high quality. 10MHz BW is plenty.
Refered to often as a quadrature sensor...
After watching a minute and 30 seconds, you did everything that my dealership did except for replace the cam phasers.
One thing you need to consider you were talking about demagnetizing the rings on them while you got to realize all of your flashlights have magnets in them all of your magnetic trays have magnets in them speakers any thing that you may use for speakers for your RUclips stuff they have magnets in them so if you happen to set one of your magnetic flashlights near one of the cams you could have a very well demagnetized it
Wow…magnetized cam shafts seems like a great thing…NOT! 😂 😂 😂
So would like be considered an engineered flaw?
@@PlumberD Anything that easily munged, _I_ would consider an engineering flaw. This is nowhere near robust, or even reasonable.
Clearly, we need an UPDATE to this video!
The chains you see at the cams do not go to the crankshaft, but to a intermediate pulley. So the chance of the crank b jumping is minimal. One of the camshaft is probably out or the cam is damaged. Occasionally the relucter wheel can get damaged or spin on the cam. Pull the valve cover off and get the motor to tdc and confirm the timing. You should have 12 pin between the marks on the camshaft. It's not unusual for one to be off and the Chrysler computer not set a correlation code. Double check with all data on the pin count, it's mentioned in the repair procedure for the timing chains. I'm not a Chrysler tech but I've done plenty of work on these motors including all the timing chains
If it's not out of time, I think the magnet on the cam touched metal and it has an erratic signal.
I can confirm Chrysler computers not throwing correlation codes. I had a 2.5L Jeep Wrangler that wouldn't start. Couldn't figure it out, it would kill spark while cranking. Timing belt looked perfect. Was thinking it was the crank sensor, but when I got an oscilloscope and was able to see the signal, it was fine. Turned out the timing belt HAD jumped I think two teeth, yet was totally undamaged and tight. But it never set a cam/crank correlation code. Would have been much easier if it had. Learn something new every day.
Ivan from pine hollow would tell you that you need a osciliscope to properly diagnose this. I would agree. Seeing the actual signals the computer is seeing is what you really need.
@@RainmanRaysRepairs
Excellent algorithm!
I'd look at the magnetic cam sensor wheels first. Anything metal or even one of the shop light magnets touching it could have screwed up the magnetic charge on the sensor wheel causing it to give weird readings to the engine ECU.
There is a bolt on each head behind the timing components that is in the oil galley that feeds the vvt…. It backs out on its own sometimes to even where it falls out… if it gets lose it can give you these codes.
Excellent audio..
Yep…..this is way above my head! So I’ve basically learned from this video that the timing chain replacement job that my 05 trailblazer needs done is not something I should attempt to do myself! So it’ll be the tedious task of trying to find a mechanic that would do the job and not rip me off!
An oscilloscope on the signal wire is the proper way to diagnose this. Compare it to the signal waveform from the good cam sensor. You can pick up a two-channel chinesium scope for less than $150.
2nd this.
Ray, Did this issue ever get properly resolved? Please let us know what you found or if its still an issue.
Microphone Sounds Great !!
Yup, looks like a learning opportunity. From what i'm hearing , this tone wheel is a bit of a sensitive wee soul. I'd break out the multi-scope and do some non-invasive comparative checks on the sensor outputs. It is plausible that the guff that was wiped off the tone wheel was actually masking an underlying issue with it. Alternatively it has slipped a tooth somehow, In either case you know you'll eventually have to open it up. Take it easy, deep breaths, stay calm and follow the data.
Ray, hate to say it, but you're gonna need camshafts. I say this because the camshaft magnets were picking up the metal in the oil like a differential magnet or a transmission pan magnet. And guess what Dave did? Wiped off the magnet, which means an erratic magnetic Hall Effect signal.
What you could do is get the cams out, and spray the reluctor wheel with brake clean and see if one magnet is still dirtier than the others. However, I concur about the magnetic aspects of your flashlights possibly causing a demagnetizing issue.
That said, more than likely, you're gonna have to get new cams to remedy the situation, given that the van idles fine, but no power above 1000 rpm. That tells me, along with that -38° timing, that the cam phasers are both worn to the same degree, and are not functioning properly, despite no oiling issues.
Good luck.
What if Ray doesn't have any brake clean? You didn't think about that, did you?
@@terrypold 😅😅🤣🤣😂😂
@@terrypold Ray might not have any BREAK clean, but he's got gallons of BRAKE clean.
@@beezul what are you talking about.
If you've got a 'scope, can you look at the signals? I know you swapped the sensors and no change, so you know both sensors are good. So, if you compare the output signals from both sensors, you should be able to tell if it's the 'reluctor' on the camshaft itself.
How about putting a scope on the sensor sense wire to see if your getting the correct signal from the tone ring.
also there might be a cam/crank relearn process that might be worth trying before you disassemble again.
he wasted his $ on Banks Air Scoop, instead of More $ in the bank scope.
That's why its an intermittent code problem good luck my friend
Did Pine hollow find low oil pressure on one of the banks? Missing the bolt on the oil channel for the phaser.
sorry to hear it but that is why i like the older cars. the way they make the newer cars they make them to go bad soo quick and you always need to get pricy new parts to fix them years ago you could just clean up or out some of the parts and rebuild them not any more. and the vid sounded better. i do feel your pain but it is what it is. best of luck
I had sane issues. I cleaned the metal off cam reluctor which in turn scratched it...
Mic sounds really great now with the noise suppression turned on.
I think it's out of time. Ivan from Pine Hollow Auto had an issue like this and I'm pretty sure that's what the issue was.
Yes. The cam may not be out of time but the trigger wheel may out of time or damaged.
Had the same problem Ray of the magnetic pickup and coating was damaged. Couldn’t see it and just replaced with new and all good. Hope this helps. Great diag by the way. 🇺🇸✌️
C4 will take care of this
One of the factory tools Chrysler sells for working on these is a pack of C4 with a remote detonator. LOL
Haha a match would do less environmental damage haha less is more i say 😂
As I am not in the trade anymore but watch YT mechanical channels to keep up to date I like many suggest you get someone in your area who is expert with a PICO scope that will give you a non physical look at the cams data & that will tell you where to go next ,as others have said PHAD have had vehicles with the same problem That in my opinion will be your fastest & most precise way of determining what is faulty Cheers if you read this & I hope it is of use.
It's important to distinguish between a "reluctance sensor" and a "hall effect sensor".
The former operates with a moving element (a toothed wheel) which is made of ferromagnetic material (eg. mild steel) but which is not magnetised; the wheel interacts with a magnetic field produced by the sensor itself, and the sensor detects that interaction. Unless you physically damage the wheel, just about the only way to stop this working properly is to induce a permanent magnetisation in the wheel, which in principle you should be able to remove by, for example, degaussing it.
The latter operates with a moving element which is a multipole permanent magnet; the sensor directly senses the magnetic field which it produces. It is a very common part of a brushless DC motor, since a strong permanent magnet is an inherent part of the rotor. From what others are saying in the comments, the camshafts on this engine are fitted with magnets for this type of sensor, but they are a relatively delicate type of magnet rather than the powerful and robust type you'd use in a motor.
The other thing I would try to check is the wiring harness from the ECU to that sensor. That's what the checklist is trying to tell you when it refers to shorts and opens. Getting a "good +5V" on a wire means nothing if it might be getting that +5V from a nearby wire that is also +5V. So disconnect the cable at BOTH ends, and check continuity and isolation that way - the way South Main does.
There is probably different names for the 2 types of hall effect sensors that come to mind. The one that you stated above, in the auto world, I would not consider a hall effect, though by definition it really is. A typical hall effect sensor, will have also have a stationary field or optic that is interrupted by a rotating element. The take Chrysler used here combined the rotating element and stationary field, producing the hall effect, but looks more like a reluctance sensor with a tone wheel. I haven't been in the auto field in years and not sure how common this rotating magnet type is. Since you did a good job at breaking down the sensors, are there different technical names for a rotating magnet type, vs the stationary magnet type with interruptions? By theory they are doing the exact same thing.
@@pud469 A "hall effect sensor" is a very specific type of magnetic sensor which relies on, as the name suggests, the Hall Effect. This is the fundamental electromagnetic phenomenon of a potential difference resulting from a current perpendicular to a magnetic field, which tends to push that current to one side of the conductor. The standout feature of a hall-effect sensor is that it can detect static magnetic fields, not only changing ones. In a position-sensing application, it directly senses the poles of a magnet attached to the moving object. The magnet and the sensor are attached to *DIFFERENT* parts of the system - one (usually the magnet) on the rotor, the other (usually the sensor) on the stator.
I would not expect a reluctance sensor to rely on a hall-effect sensor. Instead, I would expect it to do something like measure changes in the resonance frequency of a tuned electromagnetic circuit placed in the immediate vicinity of the toothed wheel, such that the teeth and only the teeth pass through the concentrated part of the magnetic field. Here, the magnet and the sensor are attached to *THE SAME* part of the system - in this case the stator - and the rotor component (the toothed wheel) is a passive device. Similar use of a moving ferromagnetic core to change an electromagnetic resonance frequency was the old-fashioned way to tune a radio.
Check the power and ground to the sensors and make sure it is giving proper voltage and ground. Be sure the cams all went back in their original locations. I think the bank 1 and bank 2 cams are different, but I don't remember if it was just exhaust cams that were different or what. Also, the magnetic ring at the back of the cams can become loose if you knock them around too much and might need "adjusting" but that is a job for Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics... The rings can slip forward or backwards. All in all, brand new cams will fix it as long as they are the correct ones and go in the correct places.
It's a Pentastar, C-4 is the best fix for those.
i mean these seem reapirable unlike the older 1.5 liter 3 cylinder turbo with the cooling slit on top of the heads
The 3.6 is a junk motor. It will break again, soon.
@@user-tb7rn1il3q it has 180k miles on it thats pretty good for a car. ill be lucky to get 100k out of my 23 bronco sport even tho i will never hit them kinda miles 50k in 10 years probly all i will put on it
I’ve actually dealt with this before. Had a handful of camshafts come in from Dodge that the magnetic tone wheel on the back of the camshaft had been damaged in some way. I had one more recently that got a timing job, no cam replacement. Afterwards the exact codes you’re displaying kept popping up. I got myself a strap wrench and physically moved the magnetic tone ring on the camshaft and that brought the actual angle to match the desired angle. Temporary fix for sure because Dodge wants you to replace the camshaft but this is how I was able to get several 3.6s back on the road.
crappy design?
Id call SMA because he knows everything.
He actually had a tone ring issue a couple of months ago... can't remember what car it was but he removed the sensor and you could see the "teeth" on the tone ring, including one that was missing.
🤦🏻
You’ve got this Ray! Everything is a learning experience.
Ray this is a prime candidate for the one thing I have never seen you do...Oscilloscope, 4 channels , crank, cam,cam,injector1 you should be able to see the timing and a dirty pickup signal. My gut reaction is pull the cover and fully check the basic timing, Start with the basics and prove its not that.
Hi Ray!Same thing happened on my brother's 2014 Ram 1500 with the 3.6. It turns out the one camshaft sensor connector had to be replaced. According to the wiring diagram for the Ram, the sensors share a ground. What we found was, the wires right at the connector had the insualation flaking off causing exposed wires on the signal and ground. They would intermittently touch setting the codes. On the truck, the bare wires were underneathe plastic wire loom just as the wires meet the connector. We ended up having to replace connector and both sensors. Apparently when the wires were touching, it took out the sensors. I did the same tests and it tested fine. The only thing I could come up with is the wires weren't touching during testing.
I had a 2013 grand Cherokee with the 3.6. That was the worst vehicle I’ve ever had. Good luck Ray!
This when you need to be like Eric O and pull out the scope. Good luck on this fix
Audio is good!
I really enjoy the audio quality with new microphone 🎤
Classic Case of Blinker Fluid.
Hey Ray. I would check the camshaft phasers. They might be bad throwing out the timing
I would want to look at the sensors with a scope. You would see if the sensors are dropping out or have a weak signal. You should also be able to tell if the cams were timed correctly.
Yes. A multichannel scope so you can compare the bad side with the good side. A scope is no longer a luxury when diagnosing newer cars.
he needs to spend Memorial day to learn how to use it.
83rd! Happy Saturday morning Ray,Lauren,and your loyal mechanic Dave. Sounds much better. Engine rebuilding work is left for the professionals. I understand it, but would never attempt it myself. There are too many things that if it isn’t done correctly, could be catastrophic for the engine. Roger in Pierre South Dakota
Happy Saturday morning to you. Enjoy your long weekend from Hawaii.
Before you get into the mechanical side, make sure you have the correct 5 volts on 3 of the 4 pins of the cam sensor pig tail. Check both of them. And play with the wires to make sure there isn’t a problem. Yes, I see that you did, but did you pull on the wires? Also, it has been known to happen on these engines, that bank one sensor can be bad and show bank 2 also. Nothing is impossible with electrical components.
I recommend using the Magnetic Field Viewer Viewing Film to check and compare the image of the magnetic wheels.
Scope your 12v and 5v buses and see if an ignition coil is bleeding to either.
You'll see a little bump each time that coil fires , the ECU will mistake that for a cam signal and think the cam sensors are failing.
Sometimes you can hear the failing coil when you turn on the AM radio.
Mic working perfectly 👌
4° difference between cams is 1/90th of 360° does any of the timing gears have 90 teeth...if so that gear may be one tooth out? 🤔
I definitely hook up a Oscilloscope to the system. You got good know car with you and will be easy to figure out. Look for weak, jumpy, cut out and etc signals.