Koine (NT) Greek Is Only Difficult Because Of The Way It's Taught (+ How To Fix It)
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
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In this episode, I share more about my current approach to learning Koine (New Testament) Greek. I offer suggestions for how seminaries and colleges can improve on teaching it.
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What's beautiful about Koine Greek is that not only is it mutually intelligible to modern Greeks....but the dialect used in The Gospels reflects the common speech of Greek speakers all over the Mediterranean, especially Judeans and such. So it's not so much a literary language, like The Attic authors or Homer, as it is an actual spoken language, with some formality, put to paper. The Apostles wrote The Gospels in a language that their dispersed Israelite audience could comprehend.
A point worth making; the Greek Orthodox Church who read the New Testament in the Koine version, use the modern Greek pronunciation. As long ago as 1852, Prof J S Blackie of Edinburgh University's New College argued in his lecture, 'The Living Language of the Greeks And its Utility To The Classical Scholar' that we should be using Greek, not Erasmian pronunciation of Koine. I have found this makes the text flow - and note, the accent marks are there to show where to stress the words! (As opposed to what I was taught, to ignore the accents marks!)
Accents are painful! But necessary. I guess I am stuck speaking like a robot.
I'm Greek. My Ancient Greek teacher always tells me and the other students to pay significant attention to the accent marks.
My Koine Greek professor (at Alaska Bible College, Palmer, AK) grew up in a Greek-American home, spent 8 years in ministry in Greece, then came to Alaska and began teaching Koine at ABC. Recently he went back to Greece and his friends there told him he spoke better Greek now than the eight years he spent there as a missionary. He always stresses speaking the language aloud, and familiarizing oneself with common phrases and chunks. I've been learning that that isn't what most professors stress and I count myself very lucky.
I didn't know it was taught in Alaska. Palmer, is "close" but not close enough lol
Please do not say, It's a dead language. It isn't. Greek has been spoken non stop for at least 40 centuries, and ancient Greek is very much alive within modern Greek. We may not speak it exactly as our ancestors did back then, but its largely the same vocabulary and the grammar has the same logic and reasoning behind it. Koine is easy to read and understand by any modern Greek who s been to school. Koine words and phrases exist and are used by Greeks today all the time. It's one and the same language in different stages of development. And yes, I hope they drop this unacceptable Erasmian pronunciation, which only distorts the language. I am Greek and I teach Koine and it's my greatest joy and pleasure.
@5SolasApologist I strongly recommend learning the modern Greek pronunciation for Koini and and nothing else. That will help you also learn modern Greek if you choose to go that way
I'm an American that attends a Greek Orthodox Church that does all the services in Greek and singing some of the chants has really embedded the structuring of phrases and made them more familiar to me.
I love everything you say in this video (except regarding pronunciation; modern pronunciation is preferable). I'm learning the language in this way myself - at a glacial pace - by worshiping at a Greek Orthodox parish and incorporating the language into my prayers. For those interested, you might like _The Synekdemos (English and Greek Edition), N. Michael Vaporis._ It's a small Orthodox prayer book with Greek and English text on facing pages 🤓
thankyou so so much, incredibly helpful. Although I feel much more natural saying forks and knives and not knives and forks as you suggest. Thelogy students always have to find an issue with something !
I agree 100% with you on the forks and knives, knives and forks doesn't sound right.
Must be British vs American cause I agree forks and knives, but I'm American
FYI, Randall Buth (Biblical Language Center), Christophe Rico (Polis Institute), Paul Nitz, Ben Kantor (koinegreek.com), Seamus Macdonald (thepatrologist.com), and others are using communicative approaches to teach Koine Greek.
Read up on Dr. Stephen Krashen's techniques for ESL/EFL (English as a Second Language/English as a Foreign Language). They can be applied to learning any language. I picked up my minimal-yet-growing Koine without those turn-off grammar rules.
Forgive me, but terms like 'optative mood' aren't the reason people are failing Greek. The thing is, Koine is taught by Western professors with thick American/English accents, plus the bizarre 'academic' pronunciation. We've tried the weird way for decades, and it hasn't worked, so why not try the simple way: hire native speakers of Modern Greek to teach the students, drop the Erasmus nonsense, and watch people's capabilities in Greek magically skyrocket. The recording you've played in the video has been done by a native Greek speaker - no wonder the language springs to life within seconds.
You are right my friend.As a native Greek reading NT koine is the same with modern Greek.But when someone is reading to me in Erasmus pronance i dont understand nothing.Its like a different language.We call it greekglish.
The recording is from a Greek priest from a monastery of Mt.Athos.
I think it's too much of a simplification to blame it all on pronunciation failures. That might be a small part of it but it's much more than that.
it is a written language....I have used Spanish, and to a certain extent French and German....tried Arabic, but too many dialects....but at least there is a way to practice....get out there and do something...this is not possible with Koine Greek...
the modern greeks have dropped too many vowel sounds for it to be useful when you are studying and trying to learn words that are only separated by slightly different vowel sounds and spellings. While a native speaker may be able to tell the difference between the words by context, someone learning to read ancient greek will not be helped at all if so many words sound identical.
I agree about code breaking. Ive said for years that learning Koine in Bible college was set up completely wrong. It was never about learning the language, it was about breaking the grammatical code. Thats a terrible way to learn a language. and it explains why no one in class had a clue how to actually THINK in Greek. Good video.
There is a Latin series called Latin by the Natural method (Fr William G Most), this sounds like that but in Koine.
kosys/neoos is something used for repetitious hearing by native speakers without loud sound. it's hearing via frequency via the skin and then the way you are hearing your own voice, so bones and that aspect of the ear.
so it's not bothering anyone. it's maybe a bit expensive to get the device but for some it is worth it.
what is the device exactly? And where would I purchase it?
Chunking. Interesting idea. It's like learning music. Learn the common chords in a key and repeat then incessantly. After the student gets to the point where they're no longer dealing with the common, then theory is introduced. Rather than becoming a burden and a chore, if taught properly, theory becomes a framework that you can use to logically dissect a piece, or, after writing a piece intuitively, be able to dissect and explain why the tones fit, are dissonant, or are a catastrophe, which can be a matter of opinion in the case of music.
Agreed. In my first years of studying Koine Greek and I have the same problems you do although I seem to be do much better than most of my classmates. We are using Bill Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek. What I think has spared somewhat is I have a decent knowledge of German, played around with translation in the past (1 Corinthians 13 is my go to), and also I found a copy of Bruce Metzger's Lexical Aids. Here are my complaints:
1) More emphasis on pronunciation especially since the last ten years there has been a better understanding of how Koine was spoken. It is greatly discouraging when people speak with a flat North American Accent and even hear a Southern US accents come through in how some people speak it,
2) More vocabulary please. This would be encouraging to students especially considering how many roots and affixes there are in English. That said nouns and verbs are easy to learn and can easily be looked up when having difficulty.. But smaller words like conjunctions are ignored. I was hoping to learn these words to avoid having to look them up and was expecting them to be a greater part of the course. Also Mounce's vocabulary at the end of the chapters seem to me to be haphazardly distributed. Metzger has context without having to dissect an entire passage.
3) You don't have to be a mechanic to drive a car. This wpuld be a reiteration of your videos
More specifically with respect to Mounce I feel since he has struggle with Greek himself why not at least partner with others who get languages. I find BBG somewhat like greek for dummies and Mounces ideas are sort of one dimensional. If he could expleain things a couple of different ways that would be better.
I get your point; however, I don't understand how you can claim that one can learn a new language without learning some amount of the language's grammar rules- formally or informally. I'm not suggesting that you have to break out a grammar book; but you will learn some grammar by careful observation (i.e., seeing the patterns) and/or trial and error.
Agreed. There are many routes to grammar, some of them richer than others, depending on the learner. My personal experience is that classroom instruction comes to life when you listen and read the language at home or on the bus, and really, fall in love with it.
That way, when working on grammar in class, you have "Aha! - so that's what that means" moments; having already been exposed to the structure enough to be ready to learn it in class.
You learn grammar as you learn to speak, just like a child learn any language.
How about reading a foreign language. I am starting to learn Koine, and most of it is reading comprehension, grammatical rules count, as it puts the word in the context, it was meant to be understood. I agree with the native speakers, which helps me tremendously.
I don't know if it's where I'm from, but knives and forks sounds backward to me
Excellent introduction to learning Greek
Don't most people say forks and knives?
Do you have any tips on how to find out which verbs have which stems? Also, how do you remember which words have which accent marks?
I needed this ...τέλια
Excellent excellent advice.
With respect, sir: I recommend perfecting your pronunciation and accent in Greek. You can use one of two pronunciations: A modern pronunciation, like the gentleman in that recording, or a reconstructed Roman Era 1st-2nd century A.D. pronunciation. I understand you made this video the years ago and your pronunciation and accent have probably improved since then.
This is so true. I'm curious as well whether he's changed his pronunciation in the last few years. Also, what noise annoys an oyster? A _noisey_ noise annoys an oyster. (This is an Erasmian pronunciation joke I'm trying out. Somebody tell me if it's funny.) 😅
@@joachim847 Good one! Yes, the only reason the Erasmian pronunciation is horrible is because it's unhistorical (doesn't reflect any spoken Greek from any century) and is typically accompanied by an awful English or American accent.
@@iberius9937 hearing Greek spoken in a posh RP accent, with no attempt at using the accent marks makes me want to punch the speaker in the mouth to stop the horror. There was a British comedy in the 80s called "Allo "Allo.It was about the French Resistance in WW2.There were two crashed British Airmen who were disguised as French civilians who the main character, Rene, had to help. He was assured by Resistance woman "Don't worry, they speak French perfectly, they will blend right in". The joke was , their accents were atrocious. That is what hearing "Greek Experts" speaking using Erasmian pronunciation sounds like to native Greek speakers.
High thoughts demand high language. By learning Greek, the brain creates synapses that will allow a more complete and genuine understanding of allmost all science, art and philosophy, including theology which is the subject here.
What online class/ course would you recommend for Koine Greek? I want to get into deeper study in the Bible. I've looked at BibleMesh but am unsure of what is best.
I recommend Biblical Language Center. I also have some more advanced audio video materials for fluency in Koine Greek at KoineGreek.com
I like Master NT Greek by Darryl Burling.
great commentary, I was thinking the same thing for some time
have you had the chance to look athe the greek course from The Teching Company? Any thoughts on that?
You out to try that ancient language called Lithuanian.
Italki doesn't have "koine" but it does have "Ancient Greek" does anyone know if they are referring to the exact same thing? aka Biblical Greek?
Koine is technically Ancient Greek but often marketed as Biblical Greek. Biblical Greek is simpler than Classical Athenian Greek which is often marketed as Ancient Greek.
The Greek of Homer is older than either but a slightly different beast again.
Great tips for those into languages and drop out easily. I´m learning ancient greek or attic. The recording you shared was read by whom, i mean what nationality, sounded like a spanish speaker.
He is a Greek priest.
@Arch Stanton Yes, absolutely Greek.
Greek and Spanish sound quite similar, especially if you have little knowledge of either language.
Can you answer the questions of Predestination in Romans 8 and revelations 13:8? I have a feeling that we poorly translated the text into seeming like we were predestined because our lack of understanding verbs in Koine Greek. I just started learning to read Greek today(because it’s familiar to the Russian/Ukrainian alphabet) I realize there’s some things I don’t understand, and probably won’t understand. But I want your take on it.
the problem with those texts is not that they are poorly translated, but that they were written in pretty bad greek to begin with.
@Particular Psalmody predestination is a condemned heresy.
Check out the documentary on youtube: Going back to the greek steven anderson
Did you like the switching to modern pronunciation?
@@BiblicalStudiesandReviews modern pronunciation is the way to do it.
A big part of becoming fluent in any language is to speak it with people. If you dont learn the modern pronunciation then you cant speak with people. And if you cant speak with people then how are you going to be fluent in greek.
Also, If you learn modern pronunciation then you can speak to people and give them the gospel.
I just don't understand the point in learning a language and speaking it in a way that nobody understands. To me thats really silly. Why not be able to speak to people and read the NT. Two birds with one stone
:)
@@tigerbk I’m in the process of switching to modern pronunciation from Erasmian. I think it’s the future for students of NT Greek.
@@BiblicalStudiesandReviews awesome! I agree with you.
Πόσο καιρό μαθαίνεις ελληνικά;
Are you still learning Greek Braedon? The going back to the Greek documentary has inspired me to learn Greek and I am to the point now to where I can preach the gospel in Greek. I've been learning for about one year.
I also say "forks and knives" Never heard "knives and forks" until I watched this video.
"Knives and forks" is by far the more common.
@@thursoberwick1948 Perhaps where you live. Three hundred million people in the US say forks and knives. So I could say “forks and knives” is by far the most common; but again, it depends on where you live.
@@giannirussso I've been in various English speaking countries and not heard it that way round. There is no reason for either combination of course... maybe rhythm, but the same thing exists with salt and pepper, table and chairs, pen and paper etc. Somewhere they probably do reverse them, but I'm used to hearing them that way round.
"Cats and dogs" and "dogs and cats" are about the same. (Cats and dogs maybe ahead by a small margin.)
@@giannirussso I'm in the US and say knives and forks. that's also how I have my silverware drawer set up. knives, forks and spoons.
💛
If learning the grammar is major for the theological principles, unavoidable and necessary, then why not learn the grammar first, get it out the way then when you read, you can pick up on the grammar and apply it as you read fluently?
That's not how you learn a language. By starting with the grammar, you will slow down your progress enormously.
I would say "forks and knives" that might be just an Americanism
It's almost never used here. I think it's because "knife and fork" has become a fixed phrase like "table and chairs" rather than "chairs and tables".
Just modern pronunciation, please! We don't want the so called Koine pronunciation
Listening to your first 3 minutes of bla bla bla are enough to make people go to another video.
See ya.
I listen to the greek audio new testament and I use an interlinear bible. Repeat repeat repeat.