It's amazing how keen some people are on International Law only when it coincides with their beliefs. Lord Elgin bought and paid for the Parthenon Friezes and followed the law as it stood at the time. 200 years later, some people want to ignore this and claim them back for other reasons (growing national or cultural awareness?). If this is a valid argument then presumably people who own property must be prepared to return their properties to the great grand children of previous owners. "My ancestor owned this house, it has great meaning to me, please hand it over, it is my right to demand it". Incidentally, those cultural treasures of ancient Mesopotamia, left in situ, have not fared so well.
If your ancestors bought that house at auction in 1944 in Munich after the family that owned the house was exterminated at Auschwitz then I would say yes. You would probably say that under German law that was perfectly acceptable at the time.
@georgesotiriou7051 I make no value judgements - only judgements on YOUR consistency. I disregard unjust laws on the same basis - inconsistency. You think the home should be returned - but not the Elgin Marbles, the Benin Bronzes or the Kohinoor. I think they ALL should.
@georgesotiriou7051 OK. Then we are in agreement. As long as the receiving government is truely representative of their people & intends to act as their custodian - not simply selling to the highest bidder.
The British Museum, like the Met in New York, is one of the great educational institutions of Western civilisation. The Elgin Marbles are in the right place.
Brilliant debunking of the egotistical nationalist narrative that attempts to dictate the cultural relevance of historical artefacts in a narrow self serving light. Also, as one would expect from Sumption, a wonderfully concise and coherent summary of the historical reality of the time Elgin legitimately acquired the statues, and not as the returners would have it that the law must now be reimagined as they wish it ought to have been simply in order to buttress their prejudices and ideology.
@@ianryder7249 Because theft was legal at the time? Wasn't theft from Jews legal during the Third Reich? Should those laws be upheld too? It seems that art theft is particular heinous - whilst small things like years of slave labour go without comment.
Excellent talk powerfully argued. I can see why he was a much feared barrister! I think he’s right, but it’s a shame he didn’t touch on the conservation work done on the marbles years ago at the BM which many now consider ill-judged.
I can tell you that as a Licenced London "black cab " driver l have taken people from all over the world to the British Musieum for more than 40 years and been proud to do so .l have visited the musieum many times and know the story of the marbles very well ,your lecture couldnt have put it better .Starmer and Osbourne will be forever shamed if this goes ahead
At last, common sense. As someone who read Ancient History at university years ago, all I can say is that's there are far too many reasons not to return the sculptures. Thank God for the views expressed here.
Absolutely brilliant summing up of the case. Art belongs to the world for the world to see. If the Elgin Marbles are returned a precedent is set that you can demand the return of items sold or given by virtue of the country of origin ergo the UK can demand the return of The Blue Boy etc.
Greece's claim is politically motivated. If they had a real case, the Marbles would've been returned 35 yrs ago. Admittedly, the issue has been inter-twined with national pride. Sadly while overlooking more immediate cultural vandalism.
Not like there is any gratitude from the Greeks that the UK was instrumental in creating Greece and handing over a bunch of islands owned by the UK to Greece. Guess what, Greeks supported the handover of Chagos to Mauritius …
@@P0thila Look how Lord Byron the great poet went to help the Greeks win independence from the Turks but died of a fever at Missolonghi and then Lord Collingwood the admiral beating the Turkish navy at the battle of Navarino I think!
Following the political line of succession, London (or, Londinium as it was known) can claim to be the proper custodian of the Marbles, as the successor state to Athens was Rome, and London is just as much the heir of the Roman Empire as Greece.
In 1812, the Ottoman Empire gave permission for the marbles to go to Britain. There were actually no 'Greeks' or 'Hellenes', either. The nation of 'New Greece' is an antificial country with an artificial nationality made in Bavaria. The Christian population called itself 'Rhomaîoi' (Romans), because they were and are the descendants of the late Roman Empire. The Rhomaîoi are not the descendants of the ancient Hellenes who are entirely extinct.
Britain has been a great custodian, its also a great sales pitch for tourism of Greece...I loved the Greeks but the truth needs to be known, they were removed to protect them not for political gain. 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷
They were removed because Elgin wanted to decorate his house in Scotland. Then sold them to the British museum when he had to come up with money for his marital problems. A true British noble man
I had the fortune in the early 1970s of visiting the Parthenon and next day flying to London and visiting the Marbles. In those days I thought the Marbles should be returned to Greece. I now think that as long as the British Museum makes them publicly available it should stay their. More people will see them an they will be better conserved.
Personally I find the eroded lumps of stone now labelled “The Elgin Marbles” to be hugely underwhelming and perhaps be put on permanent loan to be displayed with the rest of freeze objects. The advantage to the British Museum is that it releases the room for more interesting objects. The single issue is of course that every tinpot dictatorship will demand historical objects originally found on the territory they currently occupy to be returned.
If you buy a stolen car (knowingly or otherwise) the police will remove it from your possession and return it to the owner. Why should the marbles be any different?
Go to the cast room at the British muesuem . Studying reproductions has always been valid . Use 3d scanning and printing to make replicas and re loan the marbles back to Greece as a educational act of kindness
The argument to return the Elgin Marbles, if accepted legally, would set a precedent for all Stradivari violins to be taken away from great living artists and repatriated to Italy, all Renaissance paintings and manuscripts from the Netherlands to be taken from all accessible places of study worldwide and shipped off to Holland, etc. For what ultimate purpose? As Matisse created paintings for a patron in Philadelphia, would that demand “returning” them to France, where they have never been?
Venice would have to give back a lot of stuff looted from Constantinople (Istanbul) during the Fourth Crusade and this would include the spectacular bronze horses that are one of the city's icons, The ones you now see in front of St Mark's are actually replicas -the real ones are in safe storage to prevent decay. But there are lots of other valuable objects as well. Same with Rome and the Vatican museums -choc a bloc with statues and other stuff originally Greek or Roman copies.
@@robinstevenson6690 Ridiculous? Absolutely. FYI, border officials have confiscated instruments as “national treasures,” requiring musicians to initiate legal proceedings to recover them. Isidor Cohen’s Strad suffered damage at the hands of a disgruntled customs official, when returning to the United States from a European concert tour. Without documentation specifically proving that any ivory, pernambuco-or, shortly, ebony-on the instrument is pre-embargo, the musician’s private property can and regularly does, get impounded. That’s not counting the problems traveling by aircraft.
It amazes me that people can't see that all law Nasional or International is based on a man's opinion. This is a good example Lord Sumpton has his opinion the Lawyer in Greece will have his. Some people come away with the expression all the time BUT ITS THE LAW as if it was handed to Lawyers by God himself.
The principle appears to be; if one country possesses artifacts of historical antiquity of another, then if that country requests it, they should be returned. If on return, those artefacts are neglected, sold or degraded in any way, that must be acceptable, although concerns may be raised. It is, when all is said and done, that country's property. There is no occasion to call the process theft. It is legitimately stewardship in many cases and this should be gratefully acknowledged. The argument that every country houses museums with artefacts from somewhere else is valid. And if requested, those items should be returned. It is simplistic to fall back into arguments of decolonization and anglophobia. These are emotive indignations and neither useful nor accurate.
@@ds6914 I humbly disagree with your self-diagnosis. The rosetta stone has nothing to do with the modern Egyptian republic, just as these marbles have nothing to do with the modern nation of Greece. The incidents of history that led these objects to be in the museum of one modern nation state as opposed to another modern nation state can be quite arbitrary. If every object in the world could be asked to be returned to its location of origin by whatever government so happens to exist at that location at the present time then that would be complete chaos, and a sane person would easily realise this
Not a very persuasive line of reasoning for an once academic historian, extremely well-paid law practitioner, and then on UK supreme court judge. In short we are told, what was once taken was taken, we are now are where we are, if (!) we really give back to Greece the Elgin marbles what will then become of the BM (B Museum) which is *full* of cultural artifacts and heritage of other countries and people's. By the way, those Greeks wanting their artifacts back engage in cultural nationalism but his lordship (L. Sumption) worrying what will become of another country's institution, *his* own country's BM, that is OK and naturally of a better, stronger and loftier moral imperative than the Greek artifacts' return to their original and natural locus. But why should the Egyptians or Iraqis care what would happen to Britain's BM, if artifacts from such places returned to their original and natural setting? Ultimately, what is so holy and sacrosanct about a single country's, Britain's, museum institution? So long as a country can house and look after such world cultural heritage objects, then Britain's BM has no superior or loftier claim than the claim made by the places whence the artifacts originate. There are practically millions who visit Greece in a year, for endless years now and years to come, to see the country's millenia-old superlative heritage. Never mind Britain's BM, a three-century old infant institution.
These are non arguments. The Parthenon marbles are obviously of great cultural importance to the Greek people and we don't need them. Keeping them is a never-ending and pointless cause of friction between Britain and Greece, and whilst Britain has been a good steward of the marbles to date, we can now give them back to their rightful owners. We wouldn't be happy if another country took away Stone Henge or other ancient artifacts.
If the government sold Stonehenge then that's the government's fault not the buyer's. We wouldn't demand that contract law be overturned because the government was shit.
My ancestors house (Rotherwas Court) was demolished in 1926. Inside was a fabulous Jacobean panelled room that was sold by the demolition people to an American businessman and it is now housed in the Mead Art Museum in Amherst USA. It has my families coat of arms on it….but someone sold it for cash (it is a sad story) I’d feel like an idiot trying to ask to have it returned to the uk.
Another thing I like to add where was the birth place of democracy Greece who built the parthenon Greece Greece was occupied nation at the time turkey didn't own Greece so no more excuses
Sorry lord Sumption London has a moral duty to return the marbles back to Greece there is no legal argument for the refusal to return the marbles they were stolen lord Elgin admitted this in a letter to the prime minister in 1811 also they should be returned close to the parthenon temple so visitors and tourists can see them together in the country where they belong and not spit in 2 countries it's common sense.
We have week leadership and this is the result. No respect and bost loads of migrants feel its easy enough to exploit. Same with foreign governments wanna have a go
@@johnsimpson8893 Yes we can give them back ! The ottomans were illegitimate foreign foreign rulers of Greece and the marbles were not theirs to give away.
@@johnsimpson8893 I don't really care one way or another, but OK put them back where they were found if it would foster good will. I'm not someone who carelessly condemns Britain's imperial past, but things like this do leave a tinge of plunder and exploitation and I think the Elgin Marbles are well down the list of most people's priorities. Just saying . . .
It's amazing how keen some people are on International Law only when it coincides with their beliefs. Lord Elgin bought and paid for the Parthenon Friezes and followed the law as it stood at the time. 200 years later, some people want to ignore this and claim them back for other reasons (growing national or cultural awareness?). If this is a valid argument then presumably people who own property must be prepared to return their properties to the great grand children of previous owners. "My ancestor owned this house, it has great meaning to me, please hand it over, it is my right to demand it". Incidentally, those cultural treasures of ancient Mesopotamia, left in situ, have not fared so well.
Only the thieves.
If your ancestors bought that house at auction in 1944 in Munich after the family that owned the house was exterminated at Auschwitz then I would say yes. You would probably say that under German law that was perfectly acceptable at the time.
@georgesotiriou7051 I make no value judgements - only judgements on YOUR consistency. I disregard unjust laws on the same basis - inconsistency.
You think the home should be returned - but not the Elgin Marbles, the Benin Bronzes or the Kohinoor. I think they ALL should.
@@imankhandaker6103 I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I also think the sculptures should be returned.
@georgesotiriou7051 OK. Then we are in agreement. As long as the receiving government is truely representative of their people & intends to act as their custodian - not simply selling to the highest bidder.
The British Museum is probably the greatest museum in human history. That is why it is a target.
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply, but obviously if it has more artefacts from more places then more people will want them back?
Anything of value is always attacked by fools.
the greeks just want to play marbles and we should let them, imo
Any repository of stolen goods becomes a "target."
But this is England -- don't expect an honest response.
@@kerryburns-k8i Except of course the Elgin Marbles weren't stolen, but don't let the facts get in the way of your hatred.
The British Museum, like the Met in New York, is one of the great educational institutions of Western civilisation. The Elgin Marbles are in the right place.
What a moronic and sophomoric statement. Clown talk!
Yeah every time I visit I see buckets as the roof is leaking and fans as there is no air-con at the Parthenon gallery.
Brilliant debunking of the egotistical nationalist narrative that attempts to dictate the cultural relevance of historical artefacts in a narrow self serving light. Also, as one would expect from Sumption, a wonderfully concise and coherent summary of the historical reality of the time Elgin legitimately acquired the statues, and not as the returners would have it that the law must now be reimagined as they wish it ought to have been simply in order to buttress their prejudices and ideology.
Excellent comment.
@@ianryder7249 Because theft was legal at the time? Wasn't theft from Jews legal during the Third Reich? Should those laws be upheld too? It seems that art theft is particular heinous - whilst small things like years of slave labour go without comment.
Excellent talk powerfully argued. I can see why he was a much feared barrister!
I think he’s right, but it’s a shame he didn’t touch on the conservation work done on the marbles years ago at the BM which many now consider ill-judged.
Had not Lord Elgin bought and removed the marbles they would have been destroyed.
And?
Sure as we all know there is nothing left in Athens today. Oh wait
rubbish half of them survived if lord Elgin didn't take they would have still be on the parthenon it was 20 years later Greece was liberated
I can tell you that as a Licenced London "black cab " driver l have taken people from all over the world to the British Musieum for more than 40 years and been proud to do so .l have visited the musieum many times and know the story of the marbles very well ,your lecture couldnt have put it better .Starmer and Osbourne will be forever shamed if this goes ahead
As a black cab driver you are more than qualified to voice an opinion about Greek antiquities
At last, common sense. As someone who read Ancient History at university years ago, all I can say is that's there are far too many reasons not to return the sculptures. Thank God for the views expressed here.
Absolutely brilliant summing up of the case. Art belongs to the world for the world to see. If the Elgin Marbles are returned a precedent is set that you can demand the return of items sold or given by virtue of the country of origin ergo the UK can demand the return of The Blue Boy etc.
Or Nazi art collections returned to the original owners? What an outrage!
If Stamer gives back the Elgin Marbles does that mean he will have lost his Marbles ?
If Greece wants the marbles they can buy them at the current market price.
what a pompous thing to say!
@@robinstevenson6690 I might have said it was crass myself.
I could not have said it better myself.
Obviously
Greece's claim is politically motivated. If they had a real case, the Marbles would've been returned 35 yrs ago. Admittedly, the issue has been inter-twined with national pride. Sadly while overlooking more immediate cultural vandalism.
It is as much politically motivated on this end too, the Tories use keeping it here as a great publicity win, which is just gross really
@@kingeddiam2543 You have just outed yourself there.
Not like there is any gratitude from the Greeks that the UK was instrumental in creating Greece and handing over a bunch of islands owned by the UK to Greece. Guess what, Greeks supported the handover of Chagos to Mauritius …
@@P0thila there is a square in Athens named after George Canning, seems like they are grateful to the man who helped them most
@@P0thila Look how Lord Byron the great poet went to help the Greeks win independence from the Turks but died of a fever at Missolonghi and then Lord Collingwood the admiral beating the Turkish navy at the battle of Navarino I think!
Following the political line of succession, London (or, Londinium as it was known) can claim to be the proper custodian of the Marbles, as the successor state to Athens was Rome, and London is just as much the heir of the Roman Empire as Greece.
It was a bleedin' robbery, and it's foolish to pretend that it was anything but a robbery. Send the damn stones back to Greece for Gawd's sake!
Wow! This gentleman’s words are golden.
In 1812, the Ottoman Empire gave permission for the marbles to go to Britain. There were actually no 'Greeks' or 'Hellenes', either. The nation of 'New Greece' is an antificial country with an artificial nationality made in Bavaria. The Christian population called itself 'Rhomaîoi' (Romans), because they were and are the descendants of the late Roman Empire. The Rhomaîoi are not the descendants of the ancient Hellenes who are entirely extinct.
meh, the very old greeks made them, the ottomans let the a bit old britains have them, the current greeks want them back... let them have them..
sorry there was no permission to take the marbles from the temple walls lord Elgin admitted this in a letter he stole them outright
Then again give greece the marbles back when they stop bullying macedonia about alexander the great.
Why can’t they play with their own marbles.
@harrying882 lord Elgin lost them
Please educate us on how Alexander the Great was not born in the Macedonia territory which is in Greece.. Uneducated people in here
Britain has been a great custodian, its also a great sales pitch for tourism of Greece...I loved the Greeks but the truth needs to be known, they were removed to protect them not for political gain. 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷
They were removed because Elgin wanted to decorate his house in Scotland. Then sold them to the British museum when he had to come up with money for his marital problems. A true British noble man
Totally agree with you. If America gives back Manhattan Island to the native Americans, come and talk to me.
I had the fortune in the early 1970s of visiting the Parthenon and next day flying to London and visiting the Marbles. In those days I thought the Marbles should be returned to Greece. I now think that as long as the British Museum makes them publicly available it should stay their. More people will see them an they will be better conserved.
Pure ignorance.
Personally I find the eroded lumps of stone now labelled “The Elgin Marbles” to be hugely underwhelming and perhaps be put on permanent loan to be displayed with the rest of freeze objects. The advantage to the British Museum is that it releases the room for more interesting objects. The single issue is of course that every tinpot dictatorship will demand historical objects originally found on the territory they currently occupy to be returned.
Interesting article 👍 👏 👌
A good example of why our judicial appointment system needs complete overhaul.
If you buy a stolen car (knowingly or otherwise) the police will remove it from your possession and return it to the owner. Why should the marbles be any different?
BASED
BASED? What do you intend this word to mean?
I agree there'd be no end to it, but I'd like them go back to Greece, it was their great monument in their capital city, good point made though
Go to the cast room at the British muesuem . Studying reproductions has always been valid . Use 3d scanning and printing to make replicas and re loan the marbles back to Greece as a educational act of kindness
The argument to return the Elgin Marbles, if accepted legally, would set a precedent for all Stradivari violins to be taken away from great living artists and repatriated to Italy, all Renaissance paintings and manuscripts from the Netherlands to be taken from all accessible places of study worldwide and shipped off to Holland, etc. For what ultimate purpose? As Matisse created paintings for a patron in Philadelphia, would that demand “returning” them to France, where they have never been?
Venice would have to give back a lot of stuff looted from Constantinople (Istanbul) during the Fourth Crusade and this would include the spectacular bronze horses that are one of the city's icons, The ones you now see in front of St Mark's are actually replicas -the real ones are in safe storage to prevent decay. But there are lots of other valuable objects as well. Same with Rome and the Vatican museums -choc a bloc with statues and other stuff originally Greek or Roman copies.
Well, no. Stradivari made and sold stringed instruments to buyers who could then do what they wished with their property. Your comparison is invalid.
That is the most ridiculous argument I've heard in quite some time!
@@robinstevenson6690 Ridiculous? Absolutely. FYI, border officials have confiscated instruments as “national treasures,” requiring musicians to initiate legal proceedings to recover them. Isidor Cohen’s Strad suffered damage at the hands of a disgruntled customs official, when returning to the United States from a European concert tour. Without documentation specifically proving that any ivory, pernambuco-or, shortly, ebony-on the instrument is pre-embargo, the musician’s private property can and regularly does, get impounded. That’s not counting the problems traveling by aircraft.
Ridiculous or not, there have been confiscations, impoundments and damage inflicted by customs officials on great old instruments.
No morals, no moral case, obviously. 😂
Another great thing the British did they'll get no credit for. SMH
It amazes me that people can't see that all law Nasional or International is based on a man's opinion. This is a good example Lord Sumpton has his opinion the Lawyer in Greece will have his. Some people come away with the expression all the time BUT ITS THE LAW as if it was handed to Lawyers by God himself.
The principle appears to be; if one country possesses artifacts of historical antiquity of another, then if that country requests it, they should be returned. If on return, those artefacts are neglected, sold or degraded in any way, that must be acceptable, although concerns may be raised. It is, when all is said and done, that country's property. There is no occasion to call the process theft. It is legitimately stewardship in many cases and this should be gratefully acknowledged. The argument that every country houses museums with artefacts from somewhere else is valid. And if requested, those items should be returned. It is simplistic to fall back into arguments of decolonization and anglophobia. These are emotive indignations and neither useful nor accurate.
The nation of Greece didn’t exist at the taking of the marbles nor at their creation
@@dragons123ism genuinely don't see the relevance... they were made by the greeks, if the greeks want them back let them have them
@@ds6914 Because it would be like Egypt asking for the Rosetta Stone back. Are you insane? The whole notion is ridiculous
@@dragons123ism I think I'm fairly sane. If the rosette stone's egyption and eygypt want it back... let them have it
@@ds6914 I humbly disagree with your self-diagnosis. The rosetta stone has nothing to do with the modern Egyptian republic, just as these marbles have nothing to do with the modern nation of Greece. The incidents of history that led these objects to be in the museum of one modern nation state as opposed to another modern nation state can be quite arbitrary. If every object in the world could be asked to be returned to its location of origin by whatever government so happens to exist at that location at the present time then that would be complete chaos, and a sane person would easily realise this
any one else think they were actually marbles?
No
Nah?
Can we play marbles with them?
Not a very persuasive line of reasoning for an once academic historian, extremely well-paid law practitioner, and then on UK supreme court judge. In short we are told, what was once taken was taken, we are now are where we are, if (!) we really give back to Greece the Elgin marbles what will then become of the BM (B Museum) which is *full* of cultural artifacts and heritage of other countries and people's. By the way, those Greeks wanting their artifacts back engage in cultural nationalism but his lordship (L. Sumption) worrying what will become of another country's institution, *his* own country's BM, that is OK and naturally of a better, stronger and loftier moral imperative than the Greek artifacts' return to their original and natural locus. But why should the Egyptians or Iraqis care what would happen to Britain's BM, if artifacts from such places returned to their original and natural setting? Ultimately, what is so holy and sacrosanct about a single country's, Britain's, museum institution? So long as a country can house and look after such world cultural heritage objects, then Britain's BM has no superior or loftier claim than the claim made by the places whence the artifacts originate. There are practically millions who visit Greece in a year, for endless years now and years to come, to see the country's millenia-old superlative heritage. Never mind Britain's BM, a three-century old infant institution.
I'll have to look up his address!
Correct!
Lovely Barnet!!!!
These are non arguments. The Parthenon marbles are obviously of great cultural importance to the Greek people and we don't need them. Keeping them is a never-ending and pointless cause of friction between Britain and Greece, and whilst Britain has been a good steward of the marbles to date, we can now give them back to their rightful owners. We wouldn't be happy if another country took away Stone Henge or other ancient artifacts.
So what? Let the little dog (Greece) bark, it changes nothing. These were bought and paid for by Britain. End of story.
If the government sold Stonehenge then that's the government's fault not the buyer's. We wouldn't demand that contract law be overturned because the government was shit.
My ancestors house (Rotherwas Court) was demolished in 1926. Inside was a fabulous Jacobean panelled room that was sold by the demolition people to an American businessman and it is now housed in the Mead Art Museum in Amherst USA.
It has my families coat of arms on it….but someone sold it for cash (it is a sad story)
I’d feel like an idiot trying to ask to have it returned to the uk.
All contracts should be rescinded based on the desires of distant relatives. Okay grandad it's time for your medicine.
@@algardaus what do you mean? Interested to hear your point of view
What a brilliant thoughtful speech. Keep them for the world in London
Sanity
Another thing I like to add where was the birth place of democracy Greece who built the parthenon Greece Greece was occupied nation at the time turkey didn't own Greece so no more excuses
Sorry lord Sumption London has a moral duty to return the marbles back to Greece there is no legal argument for the refusal to return the marbles they were stolen lord Elgin admitted this in a letter to the prime minister in 1811 also they should be returned close to the parthenon temple so visitors and tourists can see them together in the country where they belong and not spit in 2 countries it's common sense.
Shameful speech.
We have week leadership and this is the result. No respect and bost loads of migrants feel its easy enough to exploit. Same with foreign governments wanna have a go
Sounds like a cranky argument to me.
Oh C’mon M’Lord the marbles did n’t come from here. Any way you look at it or have you lost your marbles? Give em back
now….
No.
🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
just give it back if they want it.
How to say you didn’t listen without saying you didn’t listen 🤦♂️
Nope
And everything else in all our Museums and Galleries?
I’d like your home and possessions. Is that, ok?
amen!
Just give them back and stop making a fuss. Who actually cares, even a little bit*?
A lot of people.
We did not take them from the Greeks, we have them by arrangement with the Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire no longer exists, so we cannot give them back.
@@MrElliotc02 Millions of Greek people care a lot more.
@@johnsimpson8893 Yes we can give them back ! The ottomans were illegitimate foreign foreign rulers of Greece and the marbles were not theirs to give away.
@@johnsimpson8893 I don't really care one way or another, but OK put them back where they were found if it would foster good will. I'm not someone who carelessly condemns Britain's imperial past, but things like this do leave a tinge of plunder and exploitation and I think the Elgin Marbles are well down the list of most people's priorities. Just saying . . .
👍
The famous ‘Ass’ Sumption.
What a dud set of arguments that also misunderstands and smears the actual case for restitution.
How so?
@@Gcizzlito Listen to what he says and then conclude the opposite. I'm busy.
Why should I conclude the opposite? You’ve offered nothing, and he offered a reasoned argument with facts.
@@Gcizzlito Did he now....what were the ones that most impressed you?
Sorry you find the law so boring, but it is of value to the continuation of civilisation.