I watched the fireball file test videos. I work with Rc40 material, He showed that I would do less damage, than what I would have thought on soft steel. If I just want to remove metal, I would use a grinder, files that are extra sharp give an extra level of control. I do not want to learn a different method just for soft steel. fireball showed that you can do this without dying & that is good, I was afraid, the ghosts of files past might have attacked before He was done. I lift hacksaws, on the backstroke, and find it makes the blades last longer. Most power hacksaws lift before the backstroke. Sawzalls expend a lot of blades on cutting hard or thick steel. I purchased a more expensive saber-saw, that retracts on the outward stroke, It works better. Die filers would file better with a relieve function, but it would make it harder to position. My keyseater (oversized power file) has a lever to relive the cut on the backstroke. I started filing with junk files, and treated them as such, I filed backwards often to make it easy to position. When I finally got some new files, I found the value in doing it the way my elders had stated, because I quickly ruined my new files. I have seen and felt the benefits of this “old machinist's tale” So I do not run cutting tools backward, unless other advantages out way the harm. I break the “old machinist rule” of keeping files isolated with soft material, in my lesser value file drawer, I obey this rule in the drawer of newer files.
I have used the Davis keyseater, true enough, you don't just pour the coal to the handle, you have to relieve on the up stroke. For one thing on long bores that exceed the stroke, you have to clear the chips anyway.
Dad taught me to never touch the cutting surface of files with my bare hands, because the acids in our sweat can run their cutting edge and always use the proper size handle on the tang end both for control and safety. He also taught when using a file on any type of metal to spray a light coating of Marvel's Mystery Oil before cutting, so that the light oil would prevent most of the filings from sticking in-between the teeth, thus helping to keep it clean. That step wasn't needed nor a good thing for filing wood. Lastly, either way to get into the habit a carding brush immediately after use to keep them clean and ready to go for the next job. Storing them in a cool, dry place. I have most of my files (mainly Nicholsons and Narex brands, stored in oil canvas pouches that roll up. Dad knew what he was doing, many of my files are at least 40 years old, with some he and my Grandfather passed down to me, and someday to my Son, being 75 to 100 years old and still working fine.
I worked shortly with a man when I was just starting out in the trade. He tells us the story of a company flying him into a mining operation to hand cut 4 inch pipe thread out in the field with nothing but a bag full of files, layout gauges and dye blue. Time is money. If you have hand and eye skills you can make Big money!
First job as an apprentice file a piece of tool steel square and straight. It took me a while to get it straight only to learn it wasn’t square and then it wasn’t square in two directions.
When I was serving my apprenticeship 60 years ago good files were very expensive and my journeyman was very particular in storing his files in his toolbox. He wrapped his files individually in rags so they wouldn’t rub against each other, he would never store them in the drawer loose. He also had files that were solely used for steel, brass and aluminum. When he would file copper he would rub chalk onto the file before using it so the teeth wouldn’t clog.
I kept a few mill files, just for shoulder work. Handles, had pros and cons. I usually spend more time on mills, than lathes. If I could only have one or the other, I would have trouble, deciding. I've held off on getting a lathe, because I always want bigger. Mills, don't have to be a Bridgeport, prefer spindle and X-axis drive, and DRO. With a big motor, variable speed. Then collect a boring head, dividing head, rotary table, CNC style mill vise, spin jig, etc... The question is, which, will make the most money, the fastest. I use file cards, and powdered chalk. Ugly files, are for knife making. I have an old Craftsman belt and disc sander. Old Craftsman tools, and a couple cast table saws. Brake die, files, or making folded metal knives. I used to be a Wastewater Operator, and had a lot of ferric chloride, to dip in. I guess it was pretty safe. One tank, sprung a leak, and I climbed into the containment, and found the shut-off valve. Barely stained my legs. Working on a hardened stainless 10" blade, that I call the "Disemboweler".
Ok, so I’ve seen tests done on files with automated testing equipment. They show that the old wives tales of dulling a file in the backwards stroke was incorrect. In fact, some of the tests showed the files were sharper after dragging backwards hundreds of times than files that were lifted. Of course, they weren’t using the same amount of pressure on the back stroke. I know this is a big point of contention and that’s why the tests were done. Sometimes what we think are true, aren’t, and that goes for experienced people as well.
It's the most ridiculous nonsense... Filing machines exist. Filing machines work. Filing machines don't somehow magically take the file off the work for the back stroke. The actual origin of this nonsense is shop teachers. If you give a kid a file they'll lean on the work as hard as they can and drag the file back and forth as fast as they can. This both doesn't work well and makes a god awful noise. So the shop teacher yells at them and says they're ruining the file. It's all a lie. Source: my dad was a shop teacher many, many years ago.
If it has teeth, it cuts. If it cuts, it has an intended direction. Not saying that Fireballs test was incorrect, not saying it was correct. Talk to a file manufacturer and get the word directly from the source. I was taught to raise my file after each stroke, that the teeth cut in one direction. Does dragging the file cause damage? absolutely, but to what degree is the damage. This lift vs drag debate has been going on for longer than most of us are alive. The best point ever made was by a shop owner who was telling his tool and die maker to stop dragging backwards, the die maker made the typical argument about dragging, the shop owner took him to a Bridgeport with a brand new endmill turned the mill on running in reverse and tried to take a cut. Pretty easy to know what happened there, the onwer took the endmill out handed it to the die maker and asked if there were any questions. Then he told the guy to go sharpen the endmill. The moral of the story, tools CAN be used anyway you want, but tools have an intended use that SHOULD be followed. If you are using your tools do as you wish, but if you are using my tools you will use them correctly or you won't use them at all. For the OP, sometimes we think that there is a correlation between when we see being demonstrated and what is actually being shown. It is easy to grab onto a hot RUclips video and give it credit, or an argument looking at one side and give it credit that doesn't always mean what you think.
Hi, Machinist in College here Files come in 6 different levels of coarseness according to our workbooks But, unless you go to a business supplier most just use the common names of Fine or medium etc etc. From Coarsest to smoothest: Rough (heavy rasps), Coarse, Bastard, Second Cut, Smooth, Dead Smooth Love the content! Learning lots while I'm not in class
Real world coarseness is relative to the training manual, or resource you are looking at & the manufacturer's discretion. I spent much time past getting the wrong file because I believed a single standard of terms existed in regard to files. You need to get a definite specification (from the supplier) on exactly how far apart the teeth are for a given file, otherwise, you may get sold the wrong file. Your list is pretty much what I learned in school, some of the modification starts with the "second cut", as it gets confused with "double cut", many newer references also list Bastard, as the coarsest file, as they consider very coarse files to be not files at all, but rather rasps, they use a shortened list twice, and have you specify if you want a file or a rasp, to select a range or coarseness.
@@HOWEES that's really interesting to hear from someone in the field. Since you mentioned it, I do often see other terms for coarseness and types of files. I'll for sure keep it in mind when ordering and looking for new files! I'm always trying to learn more so I can be the best I can be! Thanks for the reply!
Hints for files: 1) If mainland China or India know how to make good files, they are keeping it a secret. 2) Once you've gone to all the trouble to get all the metal picked out of the file teeth, get some cue stick chalk to rub into the file before use. It makes cleaning the file with a file card a breeze. 3) For Aluminum get a file marked "For Aluminum" and never use it for anything else. The file will cut without loading up instantly like a standard file. 4) A good dodge for file handles is to use old golf balls. Just don't drill into a ball with a liquid center. Ask me how I know this. Drill the ball slightly smaller than the width of the file tang. Pop it on with your hand and it will stay. Using golf ball handles make it easy to hang your files on the wall using a pair of finishing nails. Saves digging through a drawer piled with files looking for the one you need. 5) Have at least one good quality file. It will remind you to cull out all those worn-out files you think are ok and that it is the material you are trying to file that is the problem.
Good tips , but don't cull files , sulphuric acid sharpens files , I've seen the old school vids on you tube , and I've done it , results are very good , it's a must try
@@jamiecartwright5093 Draw a large cross section of a worn file. Now imagine how acid will restore the cutting edges of the file teeth. I can't see it. It would be like immersing a drill or end mill in acid and having the plot come out sharp. For the effort to clean a file and then immerse it in high strength acid, I 'd just get a new file and take good care of it. Cheers.
@@aceroadholder2185, I don't know how it works , all I can say is , it works , caveat is , I'm using the files to deburr and farm related work , not precision machine shop work , , so agree that the file is not to original spec , ! Cheers
Jason at Fireball Tool built a machine to test the “don’t drag on backstroke” advice. He determined it is a myth. Might be worth testing out. That said, I taught myself not to drag, so I don’t.
Love watching your channel Howie. I've been a machinist for over 30 years and just learned about chalking files. Before working with one, rub it on a stick of chalk. The pins fall right out. I've only tried it once using chalk from a chalk line but working great. A guy in town just retired from teaching machining at a local college and only learned it in his last month of teaching 😆
I was hoping I would learn something new here. Turns out I know a whole lot about files already. A good file is worth it’s weight in gold. I’ve made buckets off of all my various files. One thing I have learned for making a safe edge for a file is in my experience it goes smoother using a belt sander instead of a grinder, and also having that safe edge be straight and square improves your results when you need the safe edge.
That's why I like files, sure makes doing the job of changing bearings a whole lot easier ~ Thanks for sharing this important information. It was a great video to learn about stuff I never knew.
Use sheet lead or copper in the vise when filing files in a vise. Also, another tip; use a long angle lathe file for filing turning work on a lathe. No longer made by Nicholson but made by other companies.
Single-cut files leave a smoother finish than double-cuts because the second cutting process across the first cut raises little 'teeth' (it distorts the metal) that protrude above the plane of the first cut. A really good way to get a super-smooth finish is an old gunsmith's technique of rubbing a single-cut file with blackboard chalk prior to use and frequently while using it. The chalk allows the filings to fall out of the file and not remain on the next stroke to score the surface.
We used to call the single cut curved tooth file a “Vixen File”. Correctly or not. Works well for aluminum. We used to dress airplane propellers. I enjoy your content. Learned all this stuff in the 70s it has changed.
i have a lot of interesting stories about files and filing. the one of the best was an retired diesel fitter that told me how thy filed in bearing journal on diesel engines on boats, as emergency repair. but the process sounds like it will work. apparent had special files for that. to me a good file is one that is flat down the length, not hollow like a gutter. worst thing is if you take one stroke with a file and it leaves to marks on the edges .
Inherited a few square thread files 50 years ago.Got me out of a jam several times where a thread got smashed and was unable to use a hex threading die nut on. When I started a job in a 65 man well equipped maintenance shop they told me to ask tool room person for drill bits & files. Gave me over 20 files from 4 to 10" .Funny thing they never stocked round files until I asked for one.
Mechanic / tig welder here, draw filing using a fine mill file and Jewelers files will polish the metal to a mirror finish. Instead of pushing back and forth you gently guide the file along the part while including a slight arc. Sadly few know this technique.
As a weldor fabricator I always had files in my toolbox. Mostly for deburring and smoothing raw or cut edges and blending in a weld especially on something decorative. AL B.
Thanks John, I learned a few things. Glucosamine does wonders restoring the cartilage in joints. My BIL told me about it, now I use it daily. No more joint pains.
As a apprentice many years ago we had to file and scrape a hexagon and fit it into round stock, also filed and scraped internally and to pass there was no light to pass through when they were fitted (not that easy especially if your apprentice master who inspected it had a hangover and was cranky made you do it again, and it took days !), had to make our own torque wrenches etc before we were let loose out into the workshops, i think we are missing a lot of basic skills now with our apprentices.
The old joke of the new apprentise being sent to get a barstard from the store, the storeman would go off when the new apprentice asked for a barstard. Made first square with a file.
I am aware of two types of rectangular cross section files, mill files such as Nicholson, and hand files, such as Swiss Grobet. The difference is the mill files taper in width along the length but are of uniform thickness along the entire length. Hand files are of constant width but the thickness between the two faces varies. Each face is very slightly convex which facilitates the filing flat of a large flat surface. I can't speak to early Nicholson mill files but everything for at least the last 20 years or so is not flat. I purchase them by the box of either 6 or 12 files and it seems like when I got into this trade I could sight down the file to see which was the concave face for when it mattered. In more recent times I have discovered the files don't have one concave face and one convex face, they appear to be wavy along their length. A new, high quality file, is an absolute pleasure to use and I reserve the finest for non-ferrous metals only. As they start to wear they will be used on steel and a well worn file will be used for knocking off burrs or just thrown away. If I want to file a truly flat surface I will use a new, or like new, hand file. I'm partial to Swiss Grobet or Valtitan, which is made by Glardon Vallorbe, for my finest files and use Nicholson in the machine shop. In my opinion don't bother purchasing anything else, it left the factory dull.
Awesome information, EXCEPT... dragging files backwards does not dull them, at least not significantly on a quality file in most materials. Fireball Tools did an excellent video experimenting and illustrating there is little to no effect doing so.
I've had bosses that explain once, and you better remember everything. I carried a notepad, for notes and drawings. A supervisor, is often like the game called telephone. He told me, I tell them, they say that wasn't what I told them. Some bosses are not understanding, or forgiving. I assumed that if a print shows a rectangular part on a shaft, they would leave enough metal for me to mill off after turning. But I was wrong. A lot of the people, lacked critical math skills, and the ability to read some prints. The easy going bosses, may not be in business long, but they stress the workers less.
i used chainsaw files to file a groove in an 8 inch gate valve shaft because we needed a tamper alarm on our sprinkler risers and the alarm had a rod that needed to fit into a groove on the shaft. did 8 of them. took about 10 minutes a piece.
I'd always heard of those 4 side files called a "shoe file". I'd never made the connection it'd be what a Farrirer would use. Btw. I have my good files. Then I have my "drawer" files. Also, I'll never use a good file on rust. That'll ruin a file real quick.
one thing missed is is the fact that files are given their names 1st cut second cut bastard course etc but that is dependent on the length of file so a bastard 12" file is more course than a bastard 4" file, so it's teeth per inch per inch of file.
Howie, don't get me started on files. The best files are Valtitan high chrome alloy files hardened to Rc 63 made by Grobet Vallorbe in Switzerland. Nicholson s are made in Mexico and Brazil, are warped and will not file a steel surface flat.
Does Valtitan make any that are 16" , or larger would even be better, I haven't seen a good 24" file for sae, in over 40 years. quick search, largest I found, from Valtitan was 8", if you know of any larger ones, who is your supplier?
@@HOWEESHowee, Valtitan is a treatment patented by Grobet-Vallorbe. Basically, it is a vapor deposition process for applying Chrome into the cutting surfaces of precision files. I use these to file 440C Stainless Steel and Inconel alloys. The proper file can do very precise work. I worked for John V. Martz the Luger Carbine maker when I was younger and made very precise extrusion dies for his .45 caliber Luger magazines using mostly files and rifflers made by the Grobet-Vallorbe Company of Switzerland and personal skills. Give the Grobet Valtitan files a try; I became a permanent customer. As for size, I purchased a 10" about 5 years ago when the company did a special run of cut 000 very coarse files and I occasionally use it for large projects. The company has told me that if I order a quantity of a thousand of a certain shape of file with the Valtitan process coated on the files; they will quote it to be done. I would like to do checkering files this process; it would be great. I could checker the frames of Smith & Wesson .500 Magnum revolvers and other hardened firearms parts.
Guy Lautard mentioned several times about old machinists doing amazing things by filing, I still don't know what he meant. Is it how like you say here, a file can do the job of a milling machine for extra light work? or get a part started for being scraped? I figure in the ancient world that files and chisels were the mainstay of "cold working" metal.
I still see chuck keys left in chucks as in this video,that can be a sackable offence in my past machine shops,a few ppl I knew in past were seriously injured by that practise,NOT GOOD
Imagine if that machine was left in gear,operator walks up ,starts machine and chuck flying out hitting him or anyone in its path,,NEVER leave a chuck key in chuck
Yep, the rule was if the key was in the chuck, your hand had better be on it. Many years ago, as an apprentice I saw a lathe chuck flung across the shop and through a window. No fooling, you could kill someone with that bad habit.
About chuck keys left in chucks,yes I read your reply,but one was clearly left in chuck in machine behind you,whilst making one of your videos on different file uses 😇😇😇
I watched the fireball file test videos. I work with Rc40 material, He showed that I would do less damage, than what I would have thought on soft steel. If I just want to remove metal, I would use a grinder, files that are extra sharp give an extra level of control. I do not want to learn a different method just for soft steel. fireball showed that you can do this without dying & that is good, I was afraid, the ghosts of files past might have attacked before He was done. I lift hacksaws, on the backstroke, and find it makes the blades last longer. Most power hacksaws lift before the backstroke. Sawzalls expend a lot of blades on cutting hard or thick steel. I purchased a more expensive saber-saw, that retracts on the outward stroke, It works better. Die filers would file better with a relieve function, but it would make it harder to position. My keyseater (oversized power file) has a lever to relive the cut on the backstroke. I started filing with junk files, and treated them as such, I filed backwards often to make it easy to position. When I finally got some new files, I found the value in doing it the way my elders had stated, because I quickly ruined my new files. I have seen and felt the benefits of this “old machinist's tale” So I do not run cutting tools backward, unless other advantages out way the harm. I break the “old machinist rule” of keeping files isolated with soft material, in my lesser value file drawer, I obey this rule in the drawer of newer files.
I would like to make one correction with regards to your comment on Nickolson File Company... the actual parent company and main manufacturing facility was in Port Hope Ontario Canada i know this for 3 reasons one Canada always used to have biggest steel production especially in Port of Hope...two i grew up in said town and finally three my step aunt worked in the offices as order and logistics officer on wich of several occasions of school go to work with a family member day i went with her and saw first hand every aspect of file making there.
Check out the video that Fireball tools made about back dragging files. It will change your opinion on back dragging a file. Thanks for these videos and God bless you all!
A good set of files is mandatory if you are cutting internal keyways. I have many files, square, triangular, half round, round and all of them have a purpose. You get what you pay for.
double cut file is actually a bunch of pyramids so the finish will have alot of lines vs single cut which is more like a bunch of chisels one after another.
What about demonstrating the changes that pressure on the back of a file makes? I could change the bias of a cut considerably by just moving my index finger on the back of the file.
I saw a video of someone trying to claim that backstroking on a file isn't bad, he set up a bunch of nicer double hatch bastard file and was saying "SEE IT'S FINE! THE OLD GUYS ARE WRONG!" my question is: Would a single hatch be easily ruined from backstroking? I am certain there are a handful of file types that backstroking on would ruin them
People trow away perfectly good files to metal scrap because they think that filing is past. I build what ever and files are must. Single cut is my favour.
Easy way is the use of reamers,many kinds are made, straight, tapered, even adjustable. The other way is to use a hone or brass adjustable laps with lapping compound, if it's a hard material like a bearing race the hone or lap is only good choice, they do make carbide reamers which will cut some hard steel but the hone or laps are cheaper and more precise
Didnt fireball toll kinda bust the file dragging, well anyway dragging the fill will give a horrendous finnish because stuff will get lodged between the chiesels. I only take a couple of strokes and then tap the end on the material to "clean" it out
moderndaytinker here, You can file hard steel, up to the hardness of the file,if you degrease the file,and the part, with like acetone. (and NEVER touch the work with your GRIMEY mitts)😊
I watched the fireball file test videos. I work with Rc40 material, He showed that I would do less damage, than what I would have thought on soft steel. If I just want to remove metal, I would use a grinder, files that are extra sharp give an extra level of control. I do not want to learn a different method just for soft steel. fireball showed that you can do this without dying & that is good, I was afraid, the ghosts of files past might have attacked before He was done.
I lift hacksaws, on the backstroke, and find it makes the blades last longer. Most power hacksaws lift before the backstroke. Sawzalls expend a lot of blades on cutting hard or thick steel. I purchased a more expensive saber-saw, that retracts on the outward stroke, It works better. Die filers would file better with a relieve function, but it would make it harder to position. My keyseater (oversized power file) has a lever to relive the cut on the backstroke.
I started filing with junk files, and treated them as such, I filed backwards often to make it easy to position. When I finally got some new files, I found the value in doing it the way my elders had stated, because I quickly ruined my new files. I have seen and felt the benefits of this “old machinist's tale” So I do not run cutting tools backward, unless other advantages out way the harm.
I break the “old machinist rule” of keeping files isolated with soft material, in my lesser value file drawer, I obey this rule in the drawer of newer files.
I have used the Davis keyseater, true enough, you don't just pour the coal to the handle, you have to relieve on the up stroke. For one thing on long bores that exceed the stroke, you have to clear the chips anyway.
Thank you very much for your insight. This kind of knowledge is disappearing fast I look forward to learning more.
Dad taught me to never touch the cutting surface of files with my bare hands, because the acids in our sweat can run their cutting edge and always use the proper size handle on the tang end both for control and safety.
He also taught when using a file on any type of metal to spray a light coating of Marvel's Mystery Oil before cutting, so that the light oil would prevent most of the filings from sticking in-between the teeth, thus helping to keep it clean. That step wasn't needed nor a good thing for filing wood.
Lastly, either way to get into the habit a carding brush immediately after use to keep them clean and ready to go for the next job. Storing them in a cool, dry place. I have most of my files (mainly Nicholsons and Narex brands, stored in oil canvas pouches that roll up.
Dad knew what he was doing, many of my files are at least 40 years old, with some he and my Grandfather passed down to me, and someday to my Son, being 75 to 100 years old and still working fine.
I haven't touched a proper machining tool since high school shop. This guy's just a great presenter
The world needs more “old time” machinist that are true craftsmen, like you
Thank You
Thats funny, i was told that acid can bring a dull file back.
The thing about having used a hack saw to cut steel is you often have more appreciation for the port-a-band.
We had Marvel power hack saws, with the automatic return, they were faster than a band saw.
I worked shortly with a man when I was just starting out in the trade. He tells us the story of a company flying him into a mining operation to hand cut 4 inch pipe thread out in the field with nothing but a bag full of files, layout gauges and dye blue.
Time is money. If you have hand and eye skills you can make Big money!
I'm sure you have episodes of temper, but I think the guys who work for you are blessed. You seem to have a very pleasant demeanor.
Yes, it's nice for things to be explained, and not just having a one sided conversation.
First job as an apprentice file a piece of tool steel square and straight. It took me a while to get it straight only to learn it wasn’t square and then it wasn’t square in two directions.
When I was serving my apprenticeship 60 years ago good files were very expensive and my journeyman was very particular in storing his files in his toolbox. He wrapped his files individually in rags so they wouldn’t rub against each other, he would never store them in the drawer loose. He also had files that were solely used for steel, brass and aluminum. When he would file copper he would rub chalk onto the file before using it so the teeth wouldn’t clog.
I like that chalk trick, have to try that at work we use a lot of aluminum and its gummy.
This takes me back to my apprentice days. Chalk on the file to prevent clogging, completely forgot about this trick. Thanks for reminding me.
I kept a few mill files, just for shoulder work. Handles, had pros and cons. I usually spend more time on mills, than lathes. If I could only have one or the other, I would have trouble, deciding. I've held off on getting a lathe, because I always want bigger. Mills, don't have to be a Bridgeport, prefer spindle and X-axis drive, and DRO. With a big motor, variable speed. Then collect a boring head, dividing head, rotary table, CNC style mill vise, spin jig, etc... The question is, which, will make the most money, the fastest. I use file cards, and powdered chalk. Ugly files, are for knife making. I have an old Craftsman belt and disc sander. Old Craftsman tools, and a couple cast table saws. Brake die, files, or making folded metal knives. I used to be a Wastewater Operator, and had a lot of ferric chloride, to dip in. I guess it was pretty safe. One tank, sprung a leak, and I climbed into the containment, and found the shut-off valve. Barely stained my legs. Working on a hardened stainless 10" blade, that I call the "Disemboweler".
Ok, so I’ve seen tests done on files with automated testing equipment. They show that the old wives tales of dulling a file in the backwards stroke was incorrect. In fact, some of the tests showed the files were sharper after dragging backwards hundreds of times than files that were lifted. Of course, they weren’t using the same amount of pressure on the back stroke. I know this is a big point of contention and that’s why the tests were done. Sometimes what we think are true, aren’t, and that goes for experienced people as well.
Yeah Fireball Tool's test was pretty definitive and convincing. Dragging a file doesn't affect it at all.
I always called the shank of a file the "tang"
@@stephensarkany3577 Tang, that's what we were taught in college... 40 years ago...
It's the most ridiculous nonsense... Filing machines exist. Filing machines work. Filing machines don't somehow magically take the file off the work for the back stroke.
The actual origin of this nonsense is shop teachers. If you give a kid a file they'll lean on the work as hard as they can and drag the file back and forth as fast as they can. This both doesn't work well and makes a god awful noise. So the shop teacher yells at them and says they're ruining the file. It's all a lie. Source: my dad was a shop teacher many, many years ago.
If it has teeth, it cuts. If it cuts, it has an intended direction. Not saying that Fireballs test was incorrect, not saying it was correct. Talk to a file manufacturer and get the word directly from the source. I was taught to raise my file after each stroke, that the teeth cut in one direction. Does dragging the file cause damage? absolutely, but to what degree is the damage.
This lift vs drag debate has been going on for longer than most of us are alive. The best point ever made was by a shop owner who was telling his tool and die maker to stop dragging backwards, the die maker made the typical argument about dragging, the shop owner took him to a Bridgeport with a brand new endmill turned the mill on running in reverse and tried to take a cut. Pretty easy to know what happened there, the onwer took the endmill out handed it to the die maker and asked if there were any questions. Then he told the guy to go sharpen the endmill.
The moral of the story, tools CAN be used anyway you want, but tools have an intended use that SHOULD be followed. If you are using your tools do as you wish, but if you are using my tools you will use them correctly or you won't use them at all.
For the OP, sometimes we think that there is a correlation between when we see being demonstrated and what is actually being shown. It is easy to grab onto a hot RUclips video and give it credit, or an argument looking at one side and give it credit that doesn't always mean what you think.
Hi, Machinist in College here
Files come in 6 different levels of coarseness according to our workbooks
But, unless you go to a business supplier most just use the common names of Fine or medium etc etc.
From Coarsest to smoothest:
Rough (heavy rasps),
Coarse,
Bastard,
Second Cut,
Smooth,
Dead Smooth
Love the content! Learning lots while I'm not in class
Real world coarseness is relative to the training manual, or resource you are looking at & the manufacturer's discretion. I spent much time past getting the wrong file because I believed a single standard of terms existed in regard to files. You need to get a definite specification (from the supplier) on exactly how far apart the teeth are for a given file, otherwise, you may get sold the wrong file. Your list is pretty much what I learned in school, some of the modification starts with the "second cut", as it gets confused with "double cut", many newer references also list Bastard, as the coarsest file, as they consider very coarse files to be not files at all, but rather rasps, they use a shortened list twice, and have you specify if you want a file or a rasp, to select a range or coarseness.
@@HOWEES that's really interesting to hear from someone in the field. Since you mentioned it, I do often see other terms for coarseness and types of files. I'll for sure keep it in mind when ordering and looking for new files! I'm always trying to learn more so I can be the best I can be!
Thanks for the reply!
Hints for files:
1) If mainland China or India know how to make good files, they are keeping it a secret.
2) Once you've gone to all the trouble to get all the metal picked out of the file teeth, get some cue stick chalk to rub into the file before use. It makes cleaning the file with a file card a breeze.
3) For Aluminum get a file marked "For Aluminum" and never use it for anything else. The file will cut without loading up instantly like a standard file.
4) A good dodge for file handles is to use old golf balls. Just don't drill into a ball with a liquid center. Ask me how I know this. Drill the ball slightly smaller than the width of the file tang. Pop it on with your hand and it will stay. Using golf ball handles make it easy to hang your files on the wall using a pair of finishing nails. Saves digging through a drawer piled with files looking for the one you need.
5) Have at least one good quality file. It will remind you to cull out all those worn-out files you think are ok and that it is the material you are trying to file that is the problem.
Good tips , but don't cull files , sulphuric acid sharpens files , I've seen the old school vids on you tube , and I've done it , results are very good , it's a must try
@@jamiecartwright5093 Draw a large cross section of a worn file. Now imagine how acid will restore the cutting edges of the file teeth. I can't see it. It would be like immersing a drill or end mill in acid and having the plot come out sharp. For the effort to clean a file and then immerse it in high strength acid, I 'd just get a new file and take good care of it. Cheers.
@@aceroadholder2185, I don't know how it works , all I can say is , it works , caveat is , I'm using the files to deburr and farm related work , not precision machine shop work , , so agree that the file is not to original spec , ! Cheers
To be 21 and have all his machining and experience knowledge.
howie doesn't look a day over 20😜
@@tilliesinabottle The coveralls are so forgiving. Bless His Heart!
🤣
One of my favorite jokes in the shop is i'll ask someone if they want to see my resume and ill hand them a mill bastard file 😆
If it sound bad when some newbie is filing, tell him to ask the boss for file grease.
Jason at Fireball Tool built a machine to test the “don’t drag on backstroke” advice. He determined it is a myth. Might be worth testing out. That said, I taught myself not to drag, so I don’t.
The first and most important thing I learned when using files is “a file only works one direction”
My Dad told me that the bastard file was always the thickest folder in the cabinet.
Love watching your channel Howie. I've been a machinist for over 30 years and just learned about chalking files. Before working with one, rub it on a stick of chalk. The pins fall right out. I've only tried it once using chalk from a chalk line but working great. A guy in town just retired from teaching machining at a local college and only learned it in his last month of teaching 😆
seems like a waste of hagomoro
Cue stick chalk works a treat and you can leave the chalk with your files so it is handy.
I was taught to "chalk" files to prevent pinning when I was an 11 year old in school metalwork classes in 1956. (England)
I was hoping I would learn something new here. Turns out I know a whole lot about files already. A good file is worth it’s weight in gold. I’ve made buckets off of all my various files. One thing I have learned for making a safe edge for a file is in my experience it goes smoother using a belt sander instead of a grinder, and also having that safe edge be straight and square improves your results when you need the safe edge.
That's why I like files, sure makes doing the job of changing bearings a whole lot easier ~ Thanks for sharing this important information. It was a great video to learn about stuff I never knew.
Use sheet lead or copper in the vise when filing files in a vise. Also, another tip; use a long angle lathe file for filing turning work on a lathe. No longer made by Nicholson but made by other companies.
I have a few long angle files, and lathes, but find I would rather use regular files, seem to work better for me.
Single-cut files leave a smoother finish than double-cuts because the second cutting process across the first cut raises little 'teeth' (it distorts the metal) that protrude above the plane of the first cut. A really good way to get a super-smooth finish is an old gunsmith's technique of rubbing a single-cut file with blackboard chalk prior to use and frequently while using it. The chalk allows the filings to fall out of the file and not remain on the next stroke to score the surface.
We used to call the single cut curved tooth file a “Vixen File”. Correctly or not. Works well for aluminum. We used to dress airplane propellers. I enjoy your content. Learned all this stuff in the 70s it has changed.
i have a lot of interesting stories about files and filing. the one of the best was an retired diesel fitter that told me how thy filed in bearing journal on diesel engines on boats, as emergency repair. but the process sounds like it will work. apparent had special files for that. to me a good file is one that is flat down the length, not hollow like a gutter. worst thing is if you take one stroke with a file and it leaves to marks on the edges .
Not many people know but in a pinch you can clean your file with a piece of brass. By running the brass parallel with the teeth.
Yes I use a piece of 3/8th copper tubing flattened out on the end and ground square to clean out stuck pins from my files.
Inherited a few square thread files 50 years ago.Got me out of a jam several times where a thread got smashed and was unable to use a hex threading die nut on. When I started a job in a 65 man well equipped maintenance shop they told me to ask tool room person for drill bits & files. Gave me over 20 files from 4 to 10" .Funny thing they never stocked round files until I asked for one.
When a file is worn / damaged then the teeth can be removed by surface grinding, then the file can be converted to a hand scraper.
Stefano (UK).
We use long angle lathe file a lot, on fairly large work. Get it at the correct angle, and they'll clear chips and cut like a dream.
All your years of knowledge and skill and somehow you still manage to put all your files in a big drawer so they Bang together.
Mechanic / tig welder here, draw filing using a fine mill file and Jewelers files will polish the metal to a mirror finish. Instead of pushing back and forth you gently guide the file along the part while including a slight arc. Sadly few know this technique.
for super smooth use a burnishing files, smooth hardened steel at one end and a very fine fine file at the other end, used by clock and watch makers.
two things that come to mind are draw filing and the difference between swiss and other (american?) pattern files.
needle files, rat tail files, points file
riffler files, file bands for the band saw, the use of chalk as a filing lubricant- compound@@deathcake9000
As a weldor fabricator I always had files in my toolbox. Mostly for deburring and smoothing raw or cut edges and blending in a weld especially on something decorative. AL B.
I've worked with all these tools for the past 50 years. Watching these videos I feel like I am on a museum tour 😂.
Thanks John, I learned a few things. Glucosamine does wonders restoring the cartilage in joints. My BIL told me about it, now I use it daily. No more joint pains.
As a apprentice many years ago we had to file and scrape a hexagon and fit it into round stock, also filed and scraped internally and to pass there was no light to pass through when they were fitted (not that easy especially if your apprentice master who inspected it had a hangover and was cranky made you do it again, and it took days !), had to make our own torque wrenches etc before we were let loose out into the workshops, i think we are missing a lot of basic skills now with our apprentices.
The old joke of the new apprentise being sent to get a barstard from the store, the storeman would go off when the new apprentice asked for a barstard.
Made first square with a file.
I am aware of two types of rectangular cross section files, mill files such as Nicholson, and hand files, such as Swiss Grobet. The difference is the mill files taper in width along the length but are of uniform thickness along the entire length. Hand files are of constant width but the thickness between the two faces varies. Each face is very slightly convex which facilitates the filing flat of a large flat surface. I can't speak to early Nicholson mill files but everything for at least the last 20 years or so is not flat. I purchase them by the box of either 6 or 12 files and it seems like when I got into this trade I could sight down the file to see which was the concave face for when it mattered. In more recent times I have discovered the files don't have one concave face and one convex face, they appear to be wavy along their length. A new, high quality file, is an absolute pleasure to use and I reserve the finest for non-ferrous metals only. As they start to wear they will be used on steel and a well worn file will be used for knocking off burrs or just thrown away. If I want to file a truly flat surface I will use a new, or like new, hand file. I'm partial to Swiss Grobet or Valtitan, which is made by Glardon Vallorbe, for my finest files and use Nicholson in the machine shop. In my opinion don't bother purchasing anything else, it left the factory dull.
I have found that files made in Portugal to be of better quality than the Nicholson files.
Awesome information, EXCEPT... dragging files backwards does not dull them, at least not significantly on a quality file in most materials. Fireball Tools did an excellent video experimenting and illustrating there is little to no effect doing so.
thanks for this little dose of knowledge
All I can remember learning about files is: a flat file is called a flat bastard. A half round file is called a fat bastard! 😁
I've had bosses that explain once, and you better remember everything. I carried a notepad, for notes and drawings. A supervisor, is often like the game called telephone. He told me, I tell them, they say that wasn't what I told them. Some bosses are not understanding, or forgiving. I assumed that if a print shows a rectangular part on a shaft, they would leave enough metal for me to mill off after turning. But I was wrong. A lot of the people, lacked critical math skills, and the ability to read some prints. The easy going bosses, may not be in business long, but they stress the workers less.
Nice job on ---{//////////////] can't wait to see what next!!
i used chainsaw files to file a groove in an 8 inch gate valve shaft because we needed a tamper alarm on our sprinkler risers and the alarm had a rod that needed to fit into a groove on the shaft. did 8 of them. took about 10 minutes a piece.
I'd always heard of those 4 side files called a "shoe file". I'd never made the connection it'd be what a Farrirer would use.
Btw.
I have my good files. Then I have my "drawer" files.
Also, I'll never use a good file on rust. That'll ruin a file real quick.
Must be a secretary because he's great at filing.
Great skills we are throwing out
Great work on shorts. Good talks.
5:00 Dads are always like that, they send you to go bring'em a tool and by the time you have come back they've done it in some other way. :D
Good presentation!
one thing missed is is the fact that files are given their names 1st cut second cut bastard course etc but that is dependent on the length of file so a bastard 12" file is more course than a bastard 4" file, so it's teeth per inch per inch of file.
There's something soulfully satisfying about filing. The stroke is just, I don't know, familar.
Pferd makes good files. They are german but have a manufacturing plant in Wisconsin.
Howie, don't get me started on files. The best files are Valtitan high chrome alloy files hardened to Rc 63 made by Grobet Vallorbe in Switzerland. Nicholson s are made in Mexico and Brazil, are warped and will not file a steel
surface flat.
Does Valtitan make any that are 16" , or larger would even be better, I haven't seen a good 24" file for sae, in over 40 years. quick search, largest I found, from Valtitan was 8", if you know of any larger ones, who is your supplier?
@@HOWEESHowee, Valtitan is a treatment patented by Grobet-Vallorbe. Basically, it is a vapor deposition process for applying Chrome into the cutting surfaces of precision files. I use these to file 440C Stainless Steel and Inconel alloys. The proper file can do very precise work. I worked for John V. Martz the Luger Carbine maker when I was younger and made very precise extrusion dies for his .45 caliber Luger magazines using mostly files and rifflers made by the Grobet-Vallorbe Company of Switzerland and personal skills.
Give the Grobet Valtitan files a try; I became a permanent customer.
As for size, I purchased a 10" about 5 years ago when the company did a special run of cut 000 very coarse files and I occasionally use it for large projects. The company has told me that if I order a quantity of a thousand of a certain shape of file with the Valtitan process coated on the files; they will quote it to be done. I would like to do checkering files this process; it would be great. I could checker the frames of Smith & Wesson .500 Magnum revolvers and other hardened firearms parts.
Guy Lautard mentioned several times about old machinists doing amazing things by filing, I still don't know what he meant. Is it how like you say here, a file can do the job of a milling machine for extra light work? or get a part started for being scraped? I figure in the ancient world that files and chisels were the mainstay of "cold working" metal.
great video Bubbles
I still see chuck keys left in chucks as in this video,that can be a sackable offence in my past machine shops,a few ppl I knew in past were seriously injured by that practise,NOT GOOD
Imagine if that machine was left in gear,operator walks up ,starts machine and chuck flying out hitting him or anyone in its path,,NEVER leave a chuck key in chuck
Yep, the rule was if the key was in the chuck, your hand had better be on it. Many years ago, as an apprentice I saw a lathe chuck flung across the shop and through a window. No fooling, you could kill someone with that bad habit.
The tappered round file we called rat tail files and like their cousin flat files they come in different grades. I used the rough rat bastard.
"rough rat bastard" LOL.
Was on a youth trail/fire crew in the 1970's. I can hear the shouts up and down the line; who's got the B-A-S-TA-R-D!!! file?
About chuck keys left in chucks,yes I read your reply,but one was clearly left in chuck in machine behind you,whilst making one of your videos on different file uses 😇😇😇
If you had to pick only 2 files to have in your shop which would they be? Love you videos.
A Bastard and a fine. imo
It would be cool to hear your opinion on Fireball Tools test vidoe claiming dragging a file backwards sharpens it.
I watched the fireball file test videos. I work with Rc40 material, He showed that I would do less damage, than what I would have thought on soft steel. If I just want to remove metal, I would use a grinder, files that are extra sharp give an extra level of control. I do not want to learn a different method just for soft steel. fireball showed that you can do this without dying & that is good, I was afraid, the ghosts of files past might have attacked before He was done.
I lift hacksaws, on the backstroke, and find it makes the blades last longer. Most power hacksaws lift before the backstroke. Sawzalls expend a lot of blades on cutting hard or thick steel. I purchased a more expensive saber-saw, that retracts on the outward stroke, It works better. Die filers would file better with a relieve function, but it would make it harder to position. My keyseater (oversized power file) has a lever to relive the cut on the backstroke.
I started filing with junk files, and treated them as such, I filed backwards often to make it easy to position. When I finally got some new files, I found the value in doing it the way my elders had stated, because I quickly ruined my new files. I have seen and felt the benefits of this “old machinist's tale” So I do not run cutting tools backward, unless other advantages out way the harm.
I break the “old machinist rule” of keeping files isolated with soft material, in my lesser value file drawer, I obey this rule in the drawer of newer files.
The chuck key in the chuck gave me a flashback from trade school 😰😰.
I would like to make one correction with regards to your comment on Nickolson File Company... the actual parent company and main manufacturing facility was in Port Hope Ontario Canada i know this for 3 reasons one Canada always used to have biggest steel production especially in Port of Hope...two i grew up in said town and finally three my step aunt worked in the offices as order and logistics officer on wich of several occasions of school go to work with a family member day i went with her and saw first hand every aspect of file making there.
Your shop is amazing
Thank You, it is what My 12 year old self wanted to have by the time I was 18, took a few extra decades though to get here.
I did not know that files were even used in professional Lathe work.
"This is true, if you have no skill." From the Book of Howee, chapter 2, verse 5. Amen.
Check out the video that Fireball tools made about back dragging files.
It will change your opinion on back dragging a file.
Thanks for these videos and God bless you all!
A good set of files is mandatory if you are cutting internal keyways. I have many files, square, triangular, half round, round and all of them have a purpose. You get what you pay for.
Doesn’t it dull files to to store them piled up?
double cut file is actually a bunch of pyramids so the finish will have alot of lines vs single cut which is more like a bunch of chisels one after another.
One thing I'd suggest I may have overlooked is that files are consumables, they get blunt and wear out .....
Giys you have working for you are so lucky, wosh i had a mentor like you when i was coming up
So TL;DW: is use a grinder or a power file because they're more convenient to replace than your elbow.
What about demonstrating the changes that pressure on the back of a file makes? I could change the bias of a cut considerably by just moving my index finger on the back of the file.
I saw a video of someone trying to claim that backstroking on a file isn't bad, he set up a bunch of nicer double hatch bastard file and was saying "SEE IT'S FINE! THE OLD GUYS ARE WRONG!" my question is: Would a single hatch be easily ruined from backstroking? I am certain there are a handful of file types that backstroking on would ruin them
"I Filed Backwards 2500 Times, And This Happened"
This video you mean?
Fireball tools
My thing is if you keep your files piled in a drawer is harder on them then drawing the file back with no pressure on them?
Often with sofer materials I'll backdrag as it helps clear the teeth.
Backdrag in this case is of course without added downward pressure.
A hack saw blade is a good thread file some times.
Any examples of the $300 carbide files? I'm only finding cheap ones online
Thanks for this video, I really needed that! ^____^
Bastard, roughing and finishing, are the terms I remember being tought formally, but it seems the defenitions tend to be quite loose.
Good stuff Maynard
Not been super happy with the newer Nicholsons...
I find it quicker on most occasions to grab a file,rather than the grinder👍
Thoughts on files cutting both ways..
you file just as hard on the back pull..
People trow away perfectly good files to metal scrap because they think that filing is past. I build what ever and files are must. Single cut is my favour.
Could the smoother finish from the single cut file be something similar to how a hand cut rasp cuts smoother than a machined one?
9:40 tried to pull a "Hunt Brothers" on the file market. lol
What sort of file do you use to open up a hole?
Easy way is the use of reamers,many kinds are made, straight, tapered, even adjustable. The other way is to use a hone or brass adjustable laps with lapping compound, if it's a hard material like a bearing race the hone or lap is only good choice, they do make carbide reamers which will cut some hard steel but the hone or laps are cheaper and more precise
@GS-zv3qn you use a pedo file to open up a hole lol
@@GS-zv3qn I was going to say ped ofile
What really grinds my gears is when people say maysure instead of measure😢
workpiece is much too low positioned for your hight to do any adequate filing, armes lever movement is the key
I bought a new lathe file for the first time ever. Now i want all new files.....ha
I have the big rasp version of your expensive knob file. Looks brand new. Cost me 4-5.00
Can I come and tour your facility? I live in Fairbanks
Draw filing?
Didnt fireball toll kinda bust the file dragging, well anyway dragging the fill will give a horrendous finnish because stuff will get lodged between the chiesels. I only take a couple of strokes and then tap the end on the material to "clean" it out
moderndaytinker here,
You can file hard steel, up to the hardness of the file,if you degrease the file,and the part, with like acetone. (and NEVER touch the work with your GRIMEY mitts)😊
Also, tap the tip of the file in something hard.
Also on some work,a tiny blow tube can be very helpful.😊
Wish he was my dad.
👍🏻
I thought bastard was just file with a flat and round side
👍💪🇺🇸
Never ever hang your arm over the chuck while filing, learn to change hands!!
The one place where being left-handed is a real plus.
Yes, i am.@@aceroadholder2185