I have been making chips for 40+ years. There is a time and place for everything, EVERYTHING. One thing he mentions is true, companies/engineers that over complicate parts to justify a much higher price is common place and it has been so for a long time yet it is so wrong. Long live the Axleson lathes and Bridgeport mills.
Writing simple programs is dead easy and fast with most conversational CNCs. I think that it is very rare for a fully manual machine to be the best method. I learned on manual machines and ran them for a while. I think everyone should start manual because it teaches a lot of basics but CNC capability almost always compliments a machinist's skill
you get a totally different feeling and respect for the material and the machine if you start of with a manual machine, and lets not forget the sound. its really important to learn how different material work and the best way to learn that is manual in my opinion.
My grandpa was a machinist for Ball can. His job was manufacturing replacement parts for the assembly line and later for the fully automated can press that replaced the assembly line. When they got a CNC mill, he kept his job by showing that he could make 10 parts in the time it took to program the CNC. Once they had all the parts coded and saved to 5.25" floppy disks. His job became making parts to fix the CNC mill.
I worked in Muncie, Indiana. Ball was a big employer, back a few years ago. I worked at Henman Engineering & Machine. Borg, sent our jobs to Mexico. Delco Batteries went too. Westinghouse left, New Venture, most of the machinist's and operator jobs, left the country. Don't know what kind of jobs are left.
its a long shot, but yer gandpappy didn't by chance move north to Warshington and start his own shop did he? if so I have have worked with him for about a decade.
A good machinist is a "practical" engineer. This kinda stuff is why America isnt "great" anymore. We were able to rival the Germans at one point, the wehrmacht and the red army loved their Ford 2 ton trucks. Check out the photos 😂
Knowing how to do it manually, makes you a better CNC programmer and machinist in general. When I need to make a replacement part for one of our other machine tools, i program it as if i were making a thousand of them. I want to have the majority of the work done in one clamping, to minimize errors. Of course, if it was designed / programmed wrong in the first place, then the problem is me, not my machines. I pretty much grew up in the machine shop. We had Strippit punch presses, Wysong shear, lots of welders, a basic Bridgeport mill . My first cnc was a Weideman punch press in 1985. Later i got a Fadal machining center then the Mori Seiki turning center. You pick the process that makes sense for the part and quantity.
I was taught by old machinists from way way way back in time. I wasn't allowed to use digital readouts. I learned more about the work itself that way and I had a deeper appreciation for it.
Well sure, CNCs are but tools, no? Proper place and situation in utilizing them. I think anyone who views manual vs CNC as opposition and one being better than another, is in foolish thinking. I enjoy using both, utilize them in thier proper situations, and don't understand the vs. mentality. *shrugs*. Great video as always!
some of us are just tired of people saying that they can make everything faster on a manual machine than a CNC, manual machines still have their place, but with modern CAD/CAM software and machines, the the benefits of manual machines are few and far between...
I would have both in a shop if I could afford it. In a home shop- niche market scenario, a manual machine would be quicker to procure and quicker to become profitable, and easier to keep running.
Horses for courses. First thing is to give your manual machinist equipment that produces round, parallel and square parts. Lathe or mill. Give them dro's, suitable chucks, vices, clamps and tooling. Good lighting and work space but of number one consideration should be drawings with a layout that matches up with how something is made. Dimension from outer portion if it sticks out of a lathe chuch etc. So sure, have a part finished drawing but give them a " construction drawing" toleranced, surface finish requirements, straightness and concentricity details. Let them get on and make it instead of spending time making drawings.
When asked about this I respond with something along these lines - manual machines are great when you make a wide variety of parts but not a whole lot of each at a time, CNC takes over when you have a lot of one part to make, not enough people to make the parts, or the engineer designed something they can fap to instead of a practical part.
We had a old Milwaukee #7, dragged out of a retired carrier, from WW II. We keyed 30' heavy shafts on it. It was a beast. Tight all over, could probably cut straight, during an Earthquake. Bored out engines on it. If you worried about vibrations, that was the mill.
Oh lord.. there he goes again, spouting off with all that common sense stuff … 🙄 ugh… 🤣😂 (I’m kidding) “But CNC is the future” they say. Just like he enjoys cars and driving, I enjoy my manual machines. Just like he lacks any desire to run out and buy new CNC machines, we lack that same desire to purchase electric self driving cars.. the “future” is part of a agenda and that agenda is to ship all those jobs overseas to be more profitable, and to achieve more control.
I've pretty much spent my career half on manual and half on CNC, on large Horizontal borers and vertical borers On the big machines I'd much rather run a CNC. There's no replacement for learning all the how to and why to's on a manual Though. Most of the lads I've worked with that only ever done CNC usually end up lacking alot of the foundational stuff you just learn organically on a manual
Look, there are many fair points here. When you have a hammer, everything is a nail. But dismissing the capabilities of CAM design and CNC fabrication is shortsighted. I'm 100% on board for simplicity, repairability, and integrating the design+build cycle. Designers should understand how things are made. But it is absurd to ignore the true capabilities and efficiency of CAM+CNC. There are indeed new components, assemblies, and systems that truly could not be fabricated without CAM+CNC, and that solve real problems that analog fabrication cannot. I have a background in architecture, a masters degree in architecture, and currently run a university fabrication lab with CNC routers, plasma cutters, laser cutters, and 3D printers, AND analog woodworking, metal working, and composit fabrication machining processes. Often I'll make a component by hand, because it's faster and easier. Often I will design a part using 3D modeling software, build a toolpath, and make a part with a CNC machine, because it is appropriate. It's all about the right tool for the right job. Both analog and digital tools have their place. But dismissing the truly new capabilities of CAM+CNC fabrication is self-limiting. Plus, a lot has changed since 1976. You can't solve problems using the same mindset that created them in the first place. And it's also about how you are participating in the world. If repair, maintenance, and day-to-day fabrication is your bread and butter, CAM+CNC may not make sense. If prototyping, experimentation, cutting-edge research, and problem-seeking is your focus, CAM+CNC is another essential tool in the toolbox.
Sure, until you have other jobs to run on other machines. Maybe this is true in R&D and job shops you have low volume. Parallel vs series argument. I don't wait for my laundry to be done before I do the dishes.
CNC is the better option because 1 person can run multiple machines. There is a serious shortage of qualified people in the industry. Automation is where it's at in 2023 and in the future
At Eskridge, in Kansas City, we had what was called cells. Had four CNC's with different jobs, sometimes, two different jobs, on a double table. A drill press, and a large horizontal broach. So you also had to do, First Articles, and keep SPC records. So you ran them, according to their cycle time. Busy, busy, busy.
Edit: I should say first that I'm not a machinist. I'm a millwright, and we delight in mucking around in everyone else's trade, so of course I do machining. I've only watched about 4 minutes of the video so far, and I totally get what you're saying about the programming time, but I will say (and I expect you would say the same) that there are circumstances when CNC is waaaaaay faster. At work I have one machine tool (other than a small saw and hardware-store drill press) and that is an ancient Mori-Seiki SL-15 CNC lathe. On that lathe I occasionally produce tiny parts for our machinery by the thousands. Once every 6 months or a year I have to power the thing up and try to remember how to use the antiquated Fanuc 10A controller on it, and cajole it into making 7 or 10 or 15 thousand parts for me using a bar puller. We don't have a bar feeder, mind you... I have the aluminum rod cut to 4' lengths so that it won't propeller in the machine, but I can get fifty good parts out of every rod, and over the course of a day (24 hour production) we can make about 1800 of them. There is no feasible way that I could make that happen without CNC. The guys operating it at night are temp workers... they're not trained machinists. They take a part to QC to have it checked for size, and other than that they just put in a new stick of material and push the green button. Having these parts made would cost $3 per (I've had it quoted) and I can make them for about 12 cents a piece on this lathe that cost us $5K and still holds tenths (if you keep the temperature consistent... I get smaller parts at night than I do during the day). Still, you can't argue with a situation like that. I spend two or three hours writing a program and testing it, and from then on it's a few minutes to get the lathe going (clear out the coolant channels and refill the way oil) and it's off to the races. On even a thousand parts the time spent programming it dwindles to near nothing. The last run was 7000 parts, so the programming time *per*part* was about one second, and the next time I run them it will be zero seconds, because the programming is already done. Also, this machine thrives on neglect. I like that in a tool. :)
werd to the wise... power that beasty up every couple of weeks, keep the internal battery charged up, its a fecking nightmare when they go dead... them old Mori's are bomb proof otherwise
It’s nice to have robust tools. I have old CNCs too but mine are delicate. They need to be cleaned, caressed and talked to very softly. Or else they will throw an error or just quit in the middle of a hot job.
Exactly right, manual machinists need to get with the times. I started as a manual machinist for a long time and I thought the same, but now big been strictly cnc for years . They have came a long ways, for simple parts I can program easily in under 30 minutes and have tools tooled up. Conversational machines are even faster, not to mention the rigidity and fast you can cut, and, you have that program done for next time :)
I love working on the manual lathes and mills, and use them fairly often. I totally agree that in some cases, the manuals can actually be faster than the CNC. Especially single features involving one tool. Eg; counterbores in a number of parts. There is a certain kind of zen feeling I get working on the manuals. They also make the work day fly by. However, there are parts we make (robotics industry), that absolutely have to be made on a CNC. It's not that you couldn't do it on a manual. It's just that given the quantities, and features that involve interpolating holes or surface milling, etc...they just have to be done on a CNC to expect any kind of productivity. On the flip side, if your shop is mostly repairing large shafts for the mining industry, that sort of thing? I could totally see a large manual machine being the way to go. It really just depends on the kind of work you're getting, I think. I really don't think it's an either/or scenario. They're both great, and they both have the purpose.
As an engineering student i completly agree with you. There are so many parts and things today that are overcomplicated for no reason at all. It's some thing that really isn't beaing tought that to be a good mechanical engineer at any point of production is the try to make things as simple as possible. Most things made today are complex just for the sake of beaing able to say they are doing somthing new, but i think most people don't realise that we have been using processes made and thought of 50 year or more ago.
I Love my manual machines... its where I started and prided myself with the quality of work I could produce. Fast FWD 20+ yrs... I run CNC machines at Work and in my buddies shop... I have manual machines in my garage... being a Tool and Die guy... we do a lot of one off parts with relatively decent tolerances... .0002" - .001", some of the butter jobs are called out to a .003" - .005" tolerance... 😂 Anyway, My manual mindset runs strong so I run the CNC mills like a manual machine. Most of the time I have programs i.have wrote that i keep in the log where i can pull up and change a few things... example: bolt holes... all i have to do is use the probe, let it find center, open my program change the tool, Z depth, my 'I' and 'L' hit go/green. Lol If i were still in the Navy at the base shop, I'd be using a Bridgeport with a DRO, and it would easily take twice as long to do a simple part as such. There are parts that I do that need to be done on a manual machine... typically those jobs are relatively large and are too big for pur CNCs. If i had to choose between having a cnc mill or a manual mill in my garage... for argument sake a HAAS VF2 or a Bridgeport with a 52" table with auto feed on The x, y and z... I'd choose the VF2. Cost savings the manual machine wins hands down... long term money made the cnc will handly win against the manual machine.... the cnc has more to offer for jobs, faster turn around times, and trust me when i say, I dislike saying that because I'm still a manual guy at heart. The cnc eliminates a lot of the costly tooling required to make manual operations effectively efficient. The biggest issue i see, are these kids from college that have an engineering and design degree, they come into the shop and start designing stuff that is impractical and in some cases impossible because they dont understand machining practices and the shops capabilities... they have theory but lack practice.
I am a retired mechanic and in my home shop I have a very old Logan turret lathe, from 1941. I have worked in the machine shop as an apprentice using the newer machines, including the CNC and I can say honestly that I prefer the old machines. It's a slower pace of life and is more enjoyable than the ultra fast paced get it done now pace. I should point out that I just turned 50 years old, so I am old enough to know what the fast pace is and never really knew the slow pace from years prior. We are missing a lot because things are going so fast and everything is in such a rush.
same old BS cnc vs manual bashing. I own 2 shops, since 1963. bought 1st cnc mill & lathe in 1999. we use both. manual & cnc. CNC makes us more $$ because 1 man/hour can tend 3 cnc machines making many more parts than 1 man/hour making 1 part on a manual machine. Even with a qty of 1, it is usually faster to program with today's CAD/CAM, and let the cnc make the part unattended, at night while we're closed (aka running lights out). whether cnc or manual, making 1 part takes time - with manual a skilled machinist has to stand on a hard floor in a noisy, cold /hot sometimes dirty shop, close to a dangerous machine spitting hot & sharp shaving or spraying coolant versus a skilled cnc machinist sitting in a clean quiet climate controlled programming the part then loading the mat"l a letting the cnc make the part while he goes to lunch or programs another job... both take about the same time, with cnc churning out a higher quality part 9 out of 10 times. most of my years in the biz were spent on manual machines; we used turrets, indexers, gang drills, special form tools to boost productivity - each is just a progression toward automation, no different than progressing for pen to manual typewriter to electric typewriter to word processor. folks who wish to bash cnc should drag out a manual typewriter, then mail in their complaint, instead of simply sending it via their smart phone. 😂 my company makes high performance cylinder heads for Harley Davidsons. I can manually port & work up a set of heads in about 6 hours. with 1 five axis cnc, including programming, I can produce 5 sets of heads, at a much more affordable price to my customers. cnc vs manual argument has been around since the first NC tape machines were developed for the air-force... it's like arguing about a horse & buggy vs a car. both have their 'place', but there's a reason more people drive cars than buggies...
Sorry that came across wrong, I am not bashing CNC. I just want to help people realize, it's not the only, always best way. I am also glad that You have a good product, that takes full advantage of the CNC machines that You have. Most people will probably not appreciate all the time you have also put into research, with flow benches, dynos, or maybe track experience to get to where you are. You must also have had good business practices & advertising. I fully support having good lighting in all machine shops, why would a manual tooled shop not want good lights?
That's a good point. We have a shop that makes BIG tooling for us on big-ass five-axis roller machines and they will set it up all day then let it chew on the part all night. We're talking thousands of profiled holes on the surface of a cylinder. And pretty big. The biggest (so far) was 42" OD by almost 11' long, with over 15,000 profiled blind holes in it, and it was all done in ONE setup. Big-ass machine. The crazy setup they have today with all of the touch-screen stuff is fit to make you weep when you're used to an ancient controller that doesn't even have a full alphabetic keyboard (hit 'shift' for 'T').
@@HOWEES you're 💯 % right about lights in a shop. 6 yrs ago we moved to a bigger building- first task was installing 135 Bright LED lights... 🌞 and you're right on about the hours spent at the flow bench when developing a port. I really enjoy your videos and appreciate your effort/time. Even with 60 yrs experience, I still like to learn from other machinist, such as yourself. thanks for sharing 👍 I enjoy your
programing is way faster than it has ever been and yes a good cam software is faster from scratch than a manual machinist with everything laid out ahead of time.
What he's missing is making one off parts or hard tooling on a CNC you now have all the data to reproduce it in even less time than the first time. The last 15 years of 44 I worked as a manufacturing engineer designing work holding fixtures for aircraft castings and forgings used in the rotor systems on Bell military choppers. The CNC's used in tooling were vertical with a large Bridgeport type head. 24 x 60 table and 36 in z travel. The canned cycles for just about any part feature you could ever need. They could knock out a ready to use fixture in the time it took to square the material on a normal Bridgeport. These were some complex fixtures not simple drill guide fixtures or that type stuff. There's no comparison.
I do almost exclusively one of parts (Tool and Die department), we have thrown out all but one manual lathe and a mill that gets used maybe 2 hours in a week, all other machines are CNC. IF you have your cnc speced and setup for one of parts then it is hard to find a job that would be quicker on a manual. To take the flange part as an example once that is clamped into the machine it would take less then 30s to probe the center of it then i would go to my computer next to the machine and open the cad/cam and click make hole circle, select 8 holes and a diameter. Then select the thread size from my macro list and click on one of the holes, change how deep i want to drill and tap hit calculate and send program. This is less then 2 minutes for a ready program and now i am drilling with a high hp spindle, through coolant carbide drills etc so those holes would be drilled, tapped and chamfered in no time. All this requires that you are setup for one of parts with both the right machine and cad/cam software. I have 60 common tools ready in the machine and prob 30 "less common" outside the machine that i can insert manually in the spindle. All of those tools are also in my tool list in the cam program with cutting data etc ready and in my cam macros. The Jobs were a manual would be preferred are stuff like repair/modifications on certain old parts with no drawings available (especially irregular shaped castings) and where you have to take of some material by eye and maybe shim the part into a weird angle. The last job i sat up in the manual mill was ironically a rather large batch with stamped parts. A single hole needed to be countersink and after machining the fixture in the CNC i moved it over to the manual.
I have a small manual machine shop that can make about 30 p/n's of the product that a major client once made. The volume is low- 6-20 pcs per run generally. It's not a very juicy job for a job shop, and the logistics of getting me the parts is an outsize cost at that volume. Gotta write a PO, pay for delivery or go there to pick up, etc. Might even have to negotiate or clarify the job to the machinist. Or I can order 6 feet of material from McMaster-Carr, and consume it making a p/n. Under this scenario, I won't be tempted by CNC until I want to make their more sophisticated p/n's. But that can wait. Currently installing DRO's and good places to keep everything at hand to minimize excess movement during an operation. I am sure that the DRO will close the gap to the CNC throughput significantly.
The right tool for the right job. The people who won't give you one off work because you dont have CNC's are probably looking for some place that can also pump out larger runs.
I'd guess it is the Starbucks-effect, which I just made up; but you can also quote me on that..... when in the balcans you' d amass tourists infront of a Starbucks when they think of coffee whereas you could easily find the best in some old Kavana, Buffet or so in a small town with tractors infront of it. Or in an Bosnian household served around 2pm called Zaćekuša.
I only run manual equpiment at home (for a hobby) and my work is nothing to do with machining at all (though I have done a little CNC a long time ago). His last statements say it all (taliking about self driving cars) - he says he doesn't want a computer driving for him and also that "it's no fun". But self-driving cars are vastly superior to human drivers. They still occasionally crash and they're not perfect, but you're more likely to have a crash if you're in control manually. So even when something is demonstrably better, the 'old ways' are still preferred. This mindset is why he doesn't want to consider CNC - and they've come a long way from the film he talks about. Making a 3D drawing in CAD is a lot easier and faster than it used to be and depending on the designer your 'drawings' may even come as a 3D file ready for the CAM software. Good CAM software is also quick and easy to use. For the CNC run it doesn't matter that there is a (possibly) unwarranted complex curve - the CNC will produce the part to the original spec just as well and just as fast whether it has a complex curve or a simple step so why not create more aesthetic pieces? Finally, regarding how many pieces before CNC is better - I'd much prefer to pay labourer rates to keep stock up and replace/sharpen tooling to CNC equipment that is cranking out product while my machinist does initial setup/CAD/CAM for other work, than paying machinist rates for manual repetition that a mindless machine could do faster. It's just good business (alhtough a bit sad for machinists admittedly).
I’m really good at programming manually. I’ve done it for 20 years. That said we do keep a deckel around and a manual b-port, but generally I can do one offs faster on the Mazak or the old V2xt. But, I do a lot of other crap other than making parts while my little Mazak is running.
Our Mazak turning centers, were lightning fast, handed you the parts safely, and quite efficient. All you did was feed and stack, and change inserts. Made sintered metal coil housings, for clutches. Sintered and investment castings, saved time and money, over the other methods.
this guy needs to experience the joys of a mazak sqt 15 with live tools and the old conversational control. programming is so easy once you get used to the language
The first NC mill, I ever had to work with, was bigger than my bedroom, about fourteen feet high, with a table, about the same as a Bridgeport. Tape ran, had to climb a few steps, to operate it. I couldn't see how it could pay for itself, in my lifetime. Ran a tracer mill, too. Modern CNCs, are made for production, some, have gantries and robots, that seem to have disdain for humans. Kinda like what some women, think of men. As I was running a Kitamura, twenty second cycles, and three tools. Face and plunge with an endmill, drill through, and ream. I designed a machine, to cycle them through, in half the time. All I needed to do was sand off the flash, and feed them into the tube. Now that was for the four different cams in the Ford transfer cases. Not all cycles are twenty seconds. The 5th & 6th, and reverse forks, for Borg and Tremec, had three ops, and over three minutes of cycle time. Most of the in-between time, was getting the forks parallel. The coolant was aimed so as to allow fixture changes, while running, so it wouldn't stop. Because there was always a truck, waiting to go to Mexico.
Singles or small batch vs production? No comparison. I'm still using programs on production parts that are 15yrs old. (I have an old cnc and loyal customers.) Also, I have basic programs that I can change a few measurements for basic shapes.
I have no cnc machines in my workshop. I don’t tend to make ultra complicated parts but what do make I enjoy the machining process. But like Ford vs Ferrari. Both have a place in their market. One is mass production nice products the other is bespoke hand made. One sells 100 million the other sells 100 thousand. End of the day both sets of customers are happy and staff at both enjoy their jobs. No matter cnc or manual machining just enjoy what you make.
10,000 TOOLS ? You need a computerizied inventory system to find the correct tool for the assigned job (unless your Howee after a couple cups of coffee) ! 😅
Full disclaimer: I'm still working on my degree and have very little experience in the machine shop, but I like to have opinions on everything! As far as why the constant bias towards CNC/3d printing, I think its because thats what more accessible in terms of cost and space. I mean, even up at the university, most of the guys I know spend all their time in solidworks, then 3d print it becasue its so much easier to set one up in a dorm room. If thats all you end up working with, it just becomes what you know, so it becomes the hammer and nail problem. The other thing is that learning how to work with G-Code on a 3d printer has a lot of cross over with CNC Mill or Lathe programing (so I'm told), so its an easy way to start getting familiar with it without having to invest the money and space into a full machine shop setup. Furthermore, the CAD programs we are taught typically contain a tool path generation function, often with a companion simulation function to run that tool path on the computer before it gets run through a machine. This makes visualizing the entire processs easier, along with giving a very flashy animation to show off to everyone who needs to see it. Again, when thats the perspective that you visualize the entire process through, it makes every part look like a CNC'ed part. It also doesn't help that companies like to advertise "machined from a single block of aluminum". Sure sounds flashy, but that does sound like a lot of wasted material! I wish we had more classes with a hands on learning without using computers all the time. Not even as the whole class, but just one or two more hands on labs per class. The only reason I kept going with an ME degreee path was because of the machine shop lab for Industrial Processes! Its staggering how much you learn about production when you actually have to build the thing yourself, and it just makes you appreciate the time and effort of going though each class that lead up to that moment.
We’ve had jobs come in that, in the past would have cast in features, that they want fully cnc’ing from standard stock (flame cut plate and whatnot) not realising how long that kind thing can take. For the sake of saving money on the castings. Saying that our shop has several millions on cnc machine tools, but we still have a load of manual machines and in my humble opinion manual machines are irreplaceable
My shop has both because we can run the simple stuff on the manuals while the CNCs do the more complex or involved jobs and not need to keep track of that many extra programs. I don't get the rivalry, I think it's important to know both so you have that many more tricks for when you can't do it the way you would have preferred.
been operating a lathe and shaper for around 6 years now , one off jobs , repairs , and modification jobs are just alot better suited to manual machinign as well as jobs with poor material quality (like porosity hard spots and welding)
of course cnc and manual will always have their pros and cons, i cant help but think about somthing like a swiss machine when it came to your pin example, even a cam driven swiss machine i feel would be able to do 10k parts more efficiantly then a drill press. of course the specs of the part do matter and not everyone is going to have access to a swiss machine or the expertise to run a cam driven one (i certainly dont).
Sort of the part you speak of if you were serious you would have a fixture for that holds 2 or 4 or more on a tombstone that holds multiple fixtures and have a pallet system on the machine to swap out toomstones and each of thoes flanges on a machine with adequate power and a good cam programer should be down to less than 30 seconds on somthing that simple and it should be compleatly finnished and de burred
the most annoying things I watched freshmen 3d print when I ran the college 3d printing lab were - flat plates with holes in them - gears - spheres or hemispheres - sticks would have loved an actual machine shop class honestly, took me until doing a student racecar club to realize how to actually design things practically
0:55 That would have been a lot more interesting if they gave a CNC programmer and journeyman machinist the plans at the same time and had them make a few copies of the part. Regardless of who finishes first, you'll be able to see the difference in preparation time and time per part once you're up and running.
I converted my manual lathe and mill to CNC. I use manual data input for most of my work, in other words, I just use the CNC to turn the handles. But there are times I use conversational CNC/wizards to do the donkey work such as taking a lot of material out of a bore or reducing a diameter by a large amount. Occasionally I sit at the computer and produce a finished profile that is a bit more than just facing and turning a part. I still manually change the tools and set the correct diameters and face position. I have just finished making 4 retaining rings for someone. After the lathe these were put on the mill for drilling and tapping six holes on a pitch circle diameter around the centre bore. I used a probe and the CNC to locate the centre, fit the spotting drill, pilot drill and tapping drill (set zero for each one by eye) and used conversational CNC to make the holes. I tapped manually afterwards rather than mess about tapping using the mill since I would have had to use thread milling and with what I have that is only worth doing when there are blind holes. For me this is the best mix of manual and CNC since I am only doing this as a hobby for a few beers.
Thing the CNC sufficants forget, to write a good program for even a relatively simple program your looking at an hour or more just to write the code, another hour or so to set up, but you save 2 minutes in cycle time... For short run stuff or simple second operations can't beat a manual with a competent machinist. (I've worked with plenty of "programmers" that couldn't write even a simple program in less then 8 hours...) A lot of the programmers I've worked with, were simply good at bull shitting the owners, cause they could navigate microsoft windows or MS-Dos... didn't know a damned thing about machining but they could prattle on about Ram and gigibytes
And yes at one time I could write simple drill cycle, facing, or even basic profiling (with corner rounding) long hand faster then it took to walk to the office and chew out the "programmer" but, thats not exactly a common ability in the shops I worked at (its also a reason I got fired more often then not... cause the "programmers" were often the "leads")
@@friedpixel7517 not exactly "after you design the part", if you dont make lots and lots of similar parts, you most likely dont have macros set up in the CAM, but even a really complex parts can be programmed within a couple hours, simpler parts that are suited for manual machines can pre programmed in about 20minutes, including coffee break, setup time in machine depends mostly on the type of part and what specific tools you need for that part, quite a lot of parts can be made with only a couple standard tools, sacrificing seconds off of run time for ease of setup, letting interpolation doing all the hard work...
@@friedpixel7517 The Cam software does not make good programs all by itself, despite what seems to be common practice these days, its still dependent on a programmer having a clue to what machining processes can and should be done, clicking the solid file and saying DO IT does not make you a programmer, or a machinist
@@PGspeed88 yer absolutely correct, however, not a whole lot of "programmers" out there that CAN write a simple program, THAT WORKS in a few minutes, Hel most of the ones I've worked with would take 4-5 hours to make a simple hole pattern, let alone any sort of profile or roughing work. Any moron can click on a solid file and have the CAM software "decide" the "best" method, a real machinist and programmer is what makes it work well, every time, same goes for manual machines, takes more then the ability to turn some handles and tighten a chuck/vice to make a machinist, current industry (at least around here) proves that daily
I’m seeing too many it’s either this or that here. Whether to CNC or not is a more comp,ex question=ion. It’s not just the comp,entity of the part, though sometimes it is, or the number of parts, though sometimes it is, but rather the entirety of the operation. For a small shop, such as Howie’s, or something similar, it may be that they will simply not do certain jobs. But large shops it may be a different story. Of course, Howie is talking here of simple CNC. Many modern machines are five or even more axis’s and that work is almost impossible to do manually, even with dividing heads, hydraulic or otherwise, combine that with large numbers of parts and CNC is mandatory. Modern CNC also tends to be more accurate. Programming time can take several days for some highly complex high accuracy parts. But once it’s worked out the results are worth it, again particularly if there is a fair number needed. But all that’s in favor of CNC. There are many reasons why it’s not the best solution, or at least, a necessary one.
Yea and the buggy whip manufacturers were real mad at Henry Ford. I ran some of the first NC machines in 1978 and they were clearly a game changer. I also ran tracer machines. Wire EDM machines were also a huge improvement.
To me this boils down to: how long does it take one person to to set up end produce X number of part( s) versus all the the time to write the program set up the CNC, prepare the raw material for the CNC and run X number of parts. Some times an assembly line set up of different machines is faster than one CNC. If all depends on what the part is ( complexity) and efficiency.
I completely agree with everything you say in this video. Especially about poor engineering. I guess I'd say im 50/50 you want CNC or Manual get a prototrak. We sold our 2 bridgeports for 2 traks and they are awesome. Go I to DRO mode if you want to go old school, but you have the option of CNC for curves without a table.
CNC is good for mass production when you don't have to change the program for various different parts. The only thing is regular maintenance is still required. A manually made part is better for many different parts that require precision machining
3d is important for foundry production tools. The tooling that makes castings cab be very complex, and they used to do it on a bench with wood. Now it’s done on a cnc, and it’s super fast compared to the old school. Bench guys are very valuable still, probably paid more than cnc guys. The bench guys are masters of the manual trade in pattern work
Times have changed with designing parts in the 70's-80's. Parts aren't just flat, square or rectangles. Most parts do multiple things. less assembly and hardware needed. They can be made (fancy as you say) to reduce weight. So, machining on a cnc makes more sense. Been machining since 1983, So I did a lot of manual machining. Now own a shop with cnc mills & cnc lathes. Manual yes, I have still. Bridgeport is the best drill press in the shop. Manual lathe mostly for polishing and occasional government job.
The way I see it. CNC is more for product production, not one offs . Or possibly complex jobs. Where multiple processes are required. It's like using a micro controller to flash a light, a simple flasher will do the job!
As a machinist and Ingenieur (as its spelled in german) i learned " form follows function", today its "proprietary form for functioning a certain time span". I hate that. But a company selling long lasting easy repairable items will bankrupt itself after selling the item to everyone that needs it...and i agree, the designing process was never easier than today as you dont have to worry how to machine that part, cnc will be able to, or wire edm, or whatever. Poor design became popular, no need to pay for good design when you can machine a poor designed part cheap.
personally, i don't see the evidence that making built to last easy to repair products would actually lead to bankruptcy, or even less profit long term. problem is, the bean counters only think short term. worst case should be an eventual flattening when dying equipment starts to match production of new equipment. though there will always be some development where new tech or ideas leads to improvements worth buying new equipment for some people, but even if that's not the case plenty of people will want to expand their equipment pool.
@ARockRaider true, a company selling long lasting items will bankrupt itself more likely because of no innovation or too less innovation - there is always a thin line of evolving a project into an innovative one or just updating a very good product. Many companies in Germany no longer build machines or went out of business because their product or machine was superior and almost everlasting, but alsoI because of lack of innovation - selling a superior but outdated product. Companies only trying to sell short time products often also just throw out new inventions, worth it or not. I guess it is complicated but the bean counters definitly made it worse. And yes, today very seldom things are built long term - but because money is wanted in short term, design and selling needs to be also. Still dont like it 🤣
If cars were built to last, you would only have to buy one, your whole life. Imagine, everyone has a Model T. I would say that, 99 out of a 100 kids, couldn't start one, or know what the reverse pedal does. And I would guess that Howie and I, would have to be taught, how a Tesla, drives itself.
Even with multiple drills on a manual machine, it would be a close race with stupid fast CNCs like Fanuc Robodrill or Brother Speedio, running modern carbide drills with 70bar TSC. Those holes look pretty close to 16mm (5/8"), that would give you around 4-4.5k rpm at around 2800rpm at 1750mm/min feed, holes are about 10-12mm deep, that gives you 0.5 second to drill a single hole, so 4 seconds to drill all 8 holes, plus some rapids, on robodrill it would take 2-3 more seconds... Also, the spindle load would peak at around 17-18kw, how much power do those old machines have? Dont get me wrong, manual machines still have their placr in a machine shop, but high volume production has moved on years ago.
Uh, have you ever seen a multi head drill, in a manual machine? The trick is to offset the drills, so they don't all start together. And you don't overload the old motor, that probably, has twice the service factor, than listed. We used to make aluminum racing hubs, and drilled the spoke holes, at one time.
@@everettplummer9725 starting a drill vs. keeping the drill engaged does not change the spindle load that much, all i was trying to say, when it comes to sheer speed, in this case the CNC wins, also, going from one hole pattern to another would be faster, just around 5-6 button presses, if it was programmed in the controls and not in cam. I am not saying that manual machines have no use in a machine shop, just that when it comes to higher volume production there is no competing with automation
Oh for the days when motoring was fun, in Britain there are a disproportionate number of traffic enforcement cameras and disproportionately slow speed limits that motoring is no longer fun but a chore.😭😭😭😭
If you ever make it across the pond there are a few very empty highways with no traffic enforcement cameras and lots of permafrost induced dips and bobs to scoot over in Alaska. -Cameraman
@@HOWEES would love to but at my age the all year round mild climate of old London Town suits me just fine. Perhaps in another life, but by then you will probably over run with those pesky cameras too.😉
The rapid release of internal stress in the material will always be the cnc machines down fall, plus a computer can not compensate for unforeseen conditions. I was building a mold for a simple sink plug and they had a call-out for +/- .0001" on a corner radius. Their tolerance was higher than the expected shrinkage of the material after the molding process and it was completely pointless, that radius could have been +/- .030" but the technology is there so let's take advantage of it. Cut the tolerance in half and you double the production time, so keep that in mind.
One of the things I like to do with manual support machines for my VMC is stock prep. I'll cut my stock and then mill one edge of it to establish a true surface and then that edge gets butted up against a stop in the vise of the VMC. Sometimes simplifies things when I have a part that just needs brought to size from stock and some features machined into it. The alternative is putting in soft jaws and doing both ends in the CNC and sometimes it's faster to prep the one edge on the manual and then use parallels and regular hard jaws in the VMC.
I have an almost brand new Cnc mill with the probe and tool changer. I have a new Prototrak bed mill as well. I do prototyping for aerospace. The Prototrak is the best of both worlds. If it had an automatic tool changer it would be perfect. You can use it manually or as a cnc and programming is easy thru the conversational control. I like that it’s open and you can get right up on the part with a loupe if you need to to really dial something in. That being said, these are $140,000 worth of machines. And the software is $3000 a year.
I will agree that the Prototrak is absolutely the best fusion of CNC and manual. All of the perks of a manual machine with the extra capabilities of a CNC.
I did a research project on the history of CNC machining when I went to trade school ( industrial technology- sort of engineer-y, but also sort of trades-y ) and the biggest advantage that was touted by the people that created this technology, was the repeatability factor. They were just trying to engineer the “human” out of “ human error “. I have to agree with you, there are reasons for CNC, and there are reasons for manual machining. I think it comes down to the engineering, and the lack of production sense that asks the question “ Just because we can, SHOULD we?”. Keep up the good work 👍.
I have a theory about all of this perfectly calibrated robotic manufacturing that that takes human error out of the equation. At some point nearly everything is going to be made perfectly, and because of that, we will then get bored with perfection and to some degree begin to desire human error with some things. Where each item made is unique. I can’t remember a specific example, but there are even some items that are specifically manufactured with a flaw to appear handmade. And then some people desire handmade items over machine made, even if it’s a slightly inferior product. Just look at how Japan has precision manufacturing, but their culture also values expertly crafted handmade items.
Well I would 100% agree with you because as a cnc machinist I ONLY have cnc at my disposal I would love a mill over here for quick operations. That being said I cut features on the daily that are smaller than 1mm we use 1mm cutters and 3/32 cutters daily and there's no way youre gonna make any features with that size cutters on a manual mill.
Sounds like the old saying. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I am a mechanical engineer. I prefer to deal with what I call " hybrid " shops. That have both CNC and "manual" machines. Usually better machinists, and more flexible outcomes.
I’m not a machinist by trade, I’m an electronics engineer. But if I need less than a handful of simple mechanical parts I’ll just machine it on a manual mill and lathe and I design mechanical things so I can manually machine it easily. If I need more than maybe five or ten parts, I’ll send it out to a shop and let them decide if they want to do it manually or on a CNC.
A dividing plate and a tracer versus CNC! Muahahaha! I own a large machine shop. I have one building full of large and small manual machines as well as a full grind room. The other building is full of older and modern CNC machines. Manual rarely outperforms CNC. Manual is so reliant on the tool maker or machinist running the machine correctly with regards to DOC, sfm, ipr, etc that it's difficult to quote the jobs correctly and win unless the quoting is based on the machinist. I had the same job ran on manual, and then CNC the next time, and reviewed the profit, the job performance as well as the surface finishes, and CNC almost always wins.
45yrs in the trade, ran many manual machines back in the day. The parts are far too complex to machine without CNC today. We have been programing at the machine w/computer and powermill software since 1997 and never looked back. Programing is simple and once the machine is running you are programming the next operation. Wouldn't have it any other way. Yes there is still room for a manual lathe and small mill for repairs, other than that, no.
Both manual machining and CNC machining have their place. I used to work at a CNC production shop. We ran the same parts all the time and in my work center the only time we had to write a new program was when we had to make a spacer body with an overall length that was different than what we already had programs for, or when management decided to off load some work onto us from a work center that was behind when my work center was slow. My current job as a maintenance technician in a completely different industry we have an engine lathe and a vertical knee mill in the maintenance shop. When I was working in a production machine shop I enjoyed having the CNC machines. However as a maintenance tech that mainly has to make one off parts or make repairs on existing parts I much prefer the manual machines. Sure it might take me longer to physically machine something than the cycle time of a CNC machine, but by the time you factor in writing the program and setting up the CNC machine it might be faster to make the one off using manual machines.
It's as if engineers get paid by the complexity of the part versus the function. They also adjust their speech. For example: The plural for axis is axes. Engineers say: axessees The plural for process is processes. Engineers say processees. I can go on but you get it.
This guy is completely out of touch with reality and thinks demonstration "hype" videos on RUclips represent CNC's and 3D printing's usefulness... We're not using punchcards anymore, that "bias" is the norm. Curves? Flow and thermal dynamics, FEA, vibration, compliance, ergonomics, clearance, and, yes, aesthetic and packaging matters. Like, sorry, a bone plate actually needs to conform to the bone's shape. You can have 100+ tool magazines, pallet pools, robots, bar pushers, etc. absolutely eat manual machining alive. You pretty much need to CAD anyways, CAM is not that much more effort. And those beds will absolutely clamp down a crusty brake caliper to cut out a siezed guide pin. The only place left for manual is "big iron." Because it just costs too much to make new giant machines versus just reconditioning old ones. And even those will get some automation. I love manual. I think it's an important part of continued education for a machinist. But I don't even recommend learning it in the beginning, because your CNC skills determine whether or not you can put food on the table. The most you should ever learn in the old ways at the begining is how to use a sine bar, surface plates, and various indicators/measuring tools, including gauge blocks. Don't listen to the dinosaurs. Everything, from material removal rate, tool life, surface finishes, thermal compensation, accuracy, repeatability, chip and coolant management, and the ability to quickly hit fourth and fifth axes, is better with CNC. And automation features only make it even faster, meaning a one-man business can develop and manufacture more and better products like never before.
Meanwhile my cnc machine with a pallet changer and 71 tool pockets is running a bunch one off parts all night while I'm at home asleep. We've figured out how to do high mix low volume work on cnc machines in the 90s. Manual machines are only really profitable when machining very large parts now days imo.
I love repairing antique motorcycles, designing "reliability improvement parts" or just all around piecing them together. Its hard to beat a well built manual machine with good tooling/work holding for what I do. Saving my pennies for the digital threading upgrade for the lathe though. I could do without messing with those gears 😂
A foundry guy came in with a job of making two pipe flanges. Inch thick, Procut hotroll, for a two foot pipe. I made the first one, two key slots, four holes. Had a DRO, without the bolt circle calculator, so I used my calculator, clamped it once, drilled and machined it once. The lathe guy is making the second one, the mill doesn't have enough travel to just drll the holes N,S,E, and W. So being a lathe guy, math is taboo, he dialed it in three times, and clamped it down, three times, to drill four holes and two notches. Math can mean the difference between profit and loss.
CNC machines can produce a lot of good products, or a operator can create a lot of scrape. We had a whole shift of over bored shifting forks, because the guy, didn't try both ends with the No Go. I checked the Go, all the way through, and both ends, on every single cam, I machined, like a habit. CNC machines are fast, and that can be a bad thing. I noticed slop in the table, when cleaning out the chips. The thrust bearings had worn out. I guess the coordinate machine, was showing it for awhile, and the quality control guy, would come out, and make small adjustments, over time, and not addressing the real issue. When I could push the table, back and forth, 3/8ths of an inch, it was time to order bearings. CNC machines, need maintenance too. Not micro adjustments. Communication is key.
Manual machining is no match for CNC. Manual machining is more costly, less accurate, and slower with a steep learning curve. A single CNC machine performs most operations of a mill and lathe. It also doesn't require as much tooling and fixtures as manual machines do. Equipped with just an end mill, for instance, a CNC can perform a lot of operations that would otherwise require several tools, fixtures, and complex setups on a manual machine, resulting in significant cost saving and faster production. Manual machines have a very steep learning curve. To master the use manual machines, you must be a trained machinist which requires a broad set of skills in a wide range of disciplines. It takes years of training and experience to become one. A CNC has a much shorter learning curve to operate one. Contrary to what was stated in the video, programming CNCs are no longer an issue. Today's CAM software is far easier to use and more productive than the old days when they were programmed using G-Code exclusively. Someone with zero experience can become a competent CNC operator in a matter of a weeks or months.
Prototyping will always be faster on a manual machine. For making one part CNC doesn't make sense. Production work, CNC is undoubtedly faster even when you account for programming time.
2:50 and ill bet the CNC program was on punch tape and took 3 4 hours to write the program and set up the mill. Honestly back then the journey set a better time for a one off part. Now in 2023 its done with cad The blueprints in cad the computer takes the drawing you pick the part your making and the parameters are done by the computer not someone writing code for 8 hours a day. He's just pulling parts to make off the drawing. Now its 5 axis not 3. The manual machinist almost can't do that type of work. Well not in a production time. The parts too complex and he would be making jigs all day to do operations you can't normally do. The computers today are a lot more advanced and a lot smaller. Your machinist is still 5' 10" 210 lbs and hasn't changed much ecpt for his smart phone.
In today's work force the technicians are probably less intelligent 🤓 as you are . And CNC is slowly taking over. I am a welder fabricator for the last 2 and a half decades. And most all shops I have worked in have had a CNC burn table.
SOOOO much copium in this video. There is a time and place for each tool. His rant about engineering is hilarious. So the engineering team at Porsche that designed light weight internally cooled 3d printed pistons for its racing team was just lazy? No. That's not the case at all. They took advantage of the new technology to pioneer a design that wouldn't be feasible by any other method. Honestly this video is cringe inducing. It's pretty clear that he hasn't spent time working in a modern shop. With things like thread mills you can use one tool to make a multitude of thread pitches. On a CNC machine I can make any size hole I need with one end mill and some helical interpolation. I don't have to spot/drill/ream to get to a specific hole size. I can cutter comp the tool, aim small, and comp it out until i get exact size needed. With a probe in the machine I can find center on the part before he even has in indicator in his manual machine.
Manual can be just as fast as cnc. Warner and swazey turret lathes were just as fast as a cnc. The problem is you need a body in front of it all the time.
Isn't that the way they always sell people on new stuff. Deceiving you from the start. I was taught years ago, if it was that great I would be knocking on there door to buy it. They wouldn't be knocking on my door to sell it.
I'm of the opinion that the CNC machines are prefered by the corporations mainly because they eliminate the need to properly train and pay machinists. We see the same thing happening in the millwork shops. Eliminating the need to train people also eliminates a lot of their competition.
I have been making chips for 40+ years.
There is a time and place for everything, EVERYTHING.
One thing he mentions is true, companies/engineers that over complicate parts to justify a much higher price is common place and it has been so for a long time yet it is so wrong.
Long live the Axleson lathes and Bridgeport mills.
Writing simple programs is dead easy and fast with most conversational CNCs. I think that it is very rare for a fully manual machine to be the best method.
I learned on manual machines and ran them for a while. I think everyone should start manual because it teaches a lot of basics but CNC capability almost always compliments a machinist's skill
you get a totally different feeling and respect for the material and the machine if you start of with a manual machine, and lets not forget the sound. its really important to learn how different material work and the best way to learn that is manual in my opinion.
My grandpa was a machinist for Ball can. His job was manufacturing replacement parts for the assembly line and later for the fully automated can press that replaced the assembly line.
When they got a CNC mill, he kept his job by showing that he could make 10 parts in the time it took to program the CNC.
Once they had all the parts coded and saved to 5.25" floppy disks. His job became making parts to fix the CNC mill.
I worked in Muncie, Indiana. Ball was a big employer, back a few years ago. I worked at Henman Engineering & Machine. Borg, sent our jobs to Mexico. Delco Batteries went too. Westinghouse left, New Venture, most of the machinist's and operator jobs, left the country. Don't know what kind of jobs are left.
its a long shot, but yer gandpappy didn't by chance move north to Warshington and start his own shop did he? if so I have have worked with him for about a decade.
When a level headed machinist absolutely calmly dunks from the 3 point line on engineers. 🎉 🎉
It's not just machinists. The feeling is universal amongst anyone that actually touches things.
Okay @@grantmcinnes1176
A good machinist is a "practical" engineer. This kinda stuff is why America isnt "great" anymore. We were able to rival the Germans at one point, the wehrmacht and the red army loved their Ford 2 ton trucks. Check out the photos 😂
Knowing how to do it manually, makes you a better CNC programmer and machinist in general.
When I need to make a replacement part for one of our other machine tools, i program it as if i were making a thousand of them. I want to have the majority of the work done in one clamping, to minimize errors.
Of course, if it was designed / programmed wrong in the first place, then the problem is me, not my machines.
I pretty much grew up in the machine shop. We had Strippit punch presses, Wysong shear, lots of welders, a basic Bridgeport mill . My first cnc was a Weideman punch press in 1985. Later i got a Fadal machining center then the Mori Seiki turning center. You pick the process that makes sense for the part and quantity.
Thats what im sayin. They both make sense depending on the application. Manual teaches you to listen to the cutter and pay attention to details.
I was taught by old machinists from way way way back in time. I wasn't allowed to use digital readouts. I learned more about the work itself that way and I had a deeper appreciation for it.
Well sure, CNCs are but tools, no? Proper place and situation in utilizing them. I think anyone who views manual vs CNC as opposition and one being better than another, is in foolish thinking. I enjoy using both, utilize them in thier proper situations, and don't understand the vs. mentality. *shrugs*. Great video as always!
some of us are just tired of people saying that they can make everything faster on a manual machine than a CNC, manual machines still have their place, but with modern CAD/CAM software and machines, the the benefits of manual machines are few and far between...
I would have both in a shop if I could afford it. In a home shop- niche market scenario, a manual machine would be quicker to procure and quicker to become profitable, and easier to keep running.
Horses for courses. First thing is to give your manual machinist equipment that produces round, parallel and square parts. Lathe or mill. Give them dro's, suitable chucks, vices, clamps and tooling. Good lighting and work space but of number one consideration should be drawings with a layout that matches up with how something is made. Dimension from outer portion if it sticks out of a lathe chuch etc. So sure, have a part finished drawing but give them a " construction drawing" toleranced, surface finish requirements, straightness and concentricity details. Let them get on and make it instead of spending time making drawings.
When asked about this I respond with something along these lines - manual machines are great when you make a wide variety of parts but not a whole lot of each at a time, CNC takes over when you have a lot of one part to make, not enough people to make the parts, or the engineer designed something they can fap to instead of a practical part.
We had a old Milwaukee #7, dragged out of a retired carrier, from WW II. We keyed 30' heavy shafts on it. It was a beast. Tight all over, could probably cut straight, during an Earthquake. Bored out engines on it. If you worried about vibrations, that was the mill.
Oh lord.. there he goes again, spouting off with all that common sense stuff … 🙄 ugh…
🤣😂
(I’m kidding)
“But CNC is the future” they say.
Just like he enjoys cars and driving, I enjoy my manual machines. Just like he lacks any desire to run out and buy new CNC machines, we lack that same desire to purchase electric self driving cars.. the “future” is part of a agenda and that agenda is to ship all those jobs overseas to be more profitable, and to achieve more control.
ProtoTrak has been a lifesaver for me and 1,000's of small job shops. A happy medium between full on cnc and full manual.
Acurite is much better, more modern with constant updates. Prototrak is clumsy, and outdated.
I've pretty much spent my career half on manual and half on CNC, on large Horizontal borers and vertical borers
On the big machines I'd much rather run a CNC. There's no replacement for learning all the how to and why to's on a manual Though.
Most of the lads I've worked with that only ever done CNC usually end up lacking alot of the foundational stuff you just learn organically on a manual
Look, there are many fair points here. When you have a hammer, everything is a nail. But dismissing the capabilities of CAM design and CNC fabrication is shortsighted.
I'm 100% on board for simplicity, repairability, and integrating the design+build cycle. Designers should understand how things are made. But it is absurd to ignore the true capabilities and efficiency of CAM+CNC. There are indeed new components, assemblies, and systems that truly could not be fabricated without CAM+CNC, and that solve real problems that analog fabrication cannot.
I have a background in architecture, a masters degree in architecture, and currently run a university fabrication lab with CNC routers, plasma cutters, laser cutters, and 3D printers, AND analog woodworking, metal working, and composit fabrication machining processes.
Often I'll make a component by hand, because it's faster and easier. Often I will design a part using 3D modeling software, build a toolpath, and make a part with a CNC machine, because it is appropriate.
It's all about the right tool for the right job. Both analog and digital tools have their place.
But dismissing the truly new capabilities of CAM+CNC fabrication is self-limiting. Plus, a lot has changed since 1976. You can't solve problems using the same mindset that created them in the first place.
And it's also about how you are participating in the world. If repair, maintenance, and day-to-day fabrication is your bread and butter, CAM+CNC may not make sense. If prototyping, experimentation, cutting-edge research, and problem-seeking is your focus, CAM+CNC is another essential tool in the toolbox.
Sure, until you have other jobs to run on other machines. Maybe this is true in R&D and job shops you have low volume. Parallel vs series argument. I don't wait for my laundry to be done before I do the dishes.
The difference between a machinist and a machine operator, is that the machinist can still do accurate work on an old, worn, manual machine.
CNC is the better option because 1 person can run multiple machines. There is a serious shortage of qualified people in the industry. Automation is where it's at in 2023 and in the future
At Eskridge, in Kansas City, we had what was called cells. Had four CNC's with different jobs, sometimes, two different jobs, on a double table. A drill press, and a large horizontal broach. So you also had to do, First Articles, and keep SPC records. So you ran them, according to their cycle time. Busy, busy, busy.
Edit: I should say first that I'm not a machinist. I'm a millwright, and we delight in mucking around in everyone else's trade, so of course I do machining.
I've only watched about 4 minutes of the video so far, and I totally get what you're saying about the programming time, but I will say (and I expect you would say the same) that there are circumstances when CNC is waaaaaay faster. At work I have one machine tool (other than a small saw and hardware-store drill press) and that is an ancient Mori-Seiki SL-15 CNC lathe. On that lathe I occasionally produce tiny parts for our machinery by the thousands. Once every 6 months or a year I have to power the thing up and try to remember how to use the antiquated Fanuc 10A controller on it, and cajole it into making 7 or 10 or 15 thousand parts for me using a bar puller. We don't have a bar feeder, mind you... I have the aluminum rod cut to 4' lengths so that it won't propeller in the machine, but I can get fifty good parts out of every rod, and over the course of a day (24 hour production) we can make about 1800 of them. There is no feasible way that I could make that happen without CNC. The guys operating it at night are temp workers... they're not trained machinists. They take a part to QC to have it checked for size, and other than that they just put in a new stick of material and push the green button. Having these parts made would cost $3 per (I've had it quoted) and I can make them for about 12 cents a piece on this lathe that cost us $5K and still holds tenths (if you keep the temperature consistent... I get smaller parts at night than I do during the day). Still, you can't argue with a situation like that. I spend two or three hours writing a program and testing it, and from then on it's a few minutes to get the lathe going (clear out the coolant channels and refill the way oil) and it's off to the races. On even a thousand parts the time spent programming it dwindles to near nothing. The last run was 7000 parts, so the programming time *per*part* was about one second, and the next time I run them it will be zero seconds, because the programming is already done. Also, this machine thrives on neglect. I like that in a tool. :)
werd to the wise... power that beasty up every couple of weeks, keep the internal battery charged up, its a fecking nightmare when they go dead... them old Mori's are bomb proof otherwise
@@northmanlogging2769agree, it cost me about $10,000 after everything was said and done, when the batteries died in my Mori Seiki SL25B500.
@@northmanlogging2769 And replace the battery yearly while it's powered on.
It’s nice to have robust tools. I have old CNCs too but mine are delicate. They need to be cleaned, caressed and talked to very softly. Or else they will throw an error or just quit in the middle of a hot job.
Exactly right, manual machinists need to get with the times. I started as a manual machinist for a long time and I thought the same, but now big been strictly cnc for years . They have came a long ways, for simple parts I can program easily in under 30 minutes and have tools tooled up. Conversational machines are even faster, not to mention the rigidity and fast you can cut, and, you have that program done for next time :)
I love working on the manual lathes and mills, and use them fairly often. I totally agree that in some cases, the manuals can actually be faster than the CNC. Especially single features involving one tool. Eg; counterbores in a number of parts.
There is a certain kind of zen feeling I get working on the manuals. They also make the work day fly by.
However, there are parts we make (robotics industry), that absolutely have to be made on a CNC. It's not that you couldn't do it on a manual. It's just that given the quantities, and features that involve interpolating holes or surface milling, etc...they just have to be done on a CNC to expect any kind of productivity.
On the flip side, if your shop is mostly repairing large shafts for the mining industry, that sort of thing? I could totally see a large manual machine being the way to go. It really just depends on the kind of work you're getting, I think.
I really don't think it's an either/or scenario. They're both great, and they both have the purpose.
As an engineering student i completly agree with you. There are so many parts and things today that are overcomplicated for no reason at all. It's some thing that really isn't beaing tought that to be a good mechanical engineer at any point of production is the try to make things as simple as possible. Most things made today are complex just for the sake of beaing able to say they are doing somthing new, but i think most people don't realise that we have been using processes made and thought of 50 year or more ago.
CNC’s are great for parts with precision curves.
I Love my manual machines... its where I started and prided myself with the quality of work I could produce. Fast FWD 20+ yrs... I run CNC machines at Work and in my buddies shop... I have manual machines in my garage... being a Tool and Die guy... we do a lot of one off parts with relatively decent tolerances... .0002" - .001", some of the butter jobs are called out to a .003" - .005" tolerance... 😂
Anyway, My manual mindset runs strong so I run the CNC mills like a manual machine. Most of the time I have programs i.have wrote that i keep in the log where i can pull up and change a few things... example: bolt holes... all i have to do is use the probe, let it find center, open my program change the tool, Z depth, my 'I' and 'L' hit go/green. Lol
If i were still in the Navy at the base shop, I'd be using a Bridgeport with a DRO, and it would easily take twice as long to do a simple part as such.
There are parts that I do that need to be done on a manual machine... typically those jobs are relatively large and are too big for pur CNCs.
If i had to choose between having a cnc mill or a manual mill in my garage... for argument sake a HAAS VF2 or a Bridgeport with a 52" table with auto feed on The x, y and z... I'd choose the VF2.
Cost savings the manual machine wins hands down... long term money made the cnc will handly win against the manual machine.... the cnc has more to offer for jobs, faster turn around times, and trust me when i say, I dislike saying that because I'm still a manual guy at heart. The cnc eliminates a lot of the costly tooling required to make manual operations effectively efficient.
The biggest issue i see, are these kids from college that have an engineering and design degree, they come into the shop and start designing stuff that is impractical and in some cases impossible because they dont understand machining practices and the shops capabilities... they have theory but lack practice.
I am a retired mechanic and in my home shop I have a very old Logan turret lathe, from 1941. I have worked in the machine shop as an apprentice using the newer machines, including the CNC and I can say honestly that I prefer the old machines. It's a slower pace of life and is more enjoyable than the ultra fast paced get it done now pace. I should point out that I just turned 50 years old, so I am old enough to know what the fast pace is and never really knew the slow pace from years prior. We are missing a lot because things are going so fast and everything is in such a rush.
Amen
same old BS cnc vs manual bashing. I own 2 shops, since 1963. bought 1st cnc mill & lathe in 1999. we use both. manual & cnc. CNC makes us more $$
because 1 man/hour can tend 3 cnc machines making many more parts than 1 man/hour making 1 part on a manual machine. Even with a qty of 1, it is usually faster to program with today's CAD/CAM, and let the cnc make the part unattended, at night while we're closed (aka running lights out).
whether cnc or manual, making 1 part takes time - with manual a skilled machinist has to stand on a hard floor in a noisy, cold /hot sometimes dirty shop, close to a dangerous machine spitting hot & sharp shaving or spraying coolant versus a skilled cnc machinist sitting in a clean quiet climate controlled programming the part then loading the mat"l a letting the cnc make the part while he goes to lunch or programs another job... both take about the same time, with cnc churning out a higher quality part 9 out of 10 times.
most of my years in the biz were spent on manual machines; we used turrets, indexers, gang drills, special form tools to boost productivity - each is just a progression toward automation, no different than progressing for pen to manual typewriter to electric typewriter to word processor.
folks who wish to bash cnc should drag out a manual typewriter, then mail in their complaint, instead of simply sending it via their smart phone. 😂
my company makes high performance cylinder heads for Harley Davidsons. I can manually port & work up a set of heads in about 6 hours. with 1 five axis cnc, including programming, I can produce 5 sets of heads, at a much more affordable price to my customers.
cnc vs manual argument has been around since the first NC tape machines were developed for the air-force... it's like arguing about a horse & buggy vs a car. both have their 'place', but there's a reason more people drive cars than buggies...
Sorry that came across wrong, I am not bashing CNC. I just want to help people realize, it's not the only, always best way. I am also glad that You have a good product, that takes full advantage of the CNC machines that You have. Most people will probably not appreciate all the time you have also put into research, with flow benches, dynos, or maybe track experience to get to where you are. You must also have had good business practices & advertising. I fully support having good lighting in all machine shops, why would a manual tooled shop not want good lights?
That's a good point. We have a shop that makes BIG tooling for us on big-ass five-axis roller machines and they will set it up all day then let it chew on the part all night. We're talking thousands of profiled holes on the surface of a cylinder. And pretty big. The biggest (so far) was 42" OD by almost 11' long, with over 15,000 profiled blind holes in it, and it was all done in ONE setup. Big-ass machine. The crazy setup they have today with all of the touch-screen stuff is fit to make you weep when you're used to an ancient controller that doesn't even have a full alphabetic keyboard (hit 'shift' for 'T').
@@HOWEES you're 💯 % right about lights in a shop. 6 yrs ago we moved to a bigger building- first task was installing 135 Bright LED lights... 🌞
and you're right on about the hours spent at the flow bench when developing a port.
I really enjoy your videos and appreciate your effort/time. Even with 60 yrs experience, I still like to learn from other machinist, such as yourself. thanks for sharing 👍
I enjoy your
programing is way faster than it has ever been and yes a good cam software is faster from scratch than a manual machinist with everything laid out ahead of time.
What he's missing is making one off parts or hard tooling on a CNC you now have all the data to reproduce it in even less time than the first time. The last 15 years of 44 I worked as a manufacturing engineer designing work holding fixtures for aircraft castings and forgings used in the rotor systems on Bell military choppers. The CNC's used in tooling were vertical with a large Bridgeport type head. 24 x 60 table and 36 in z travel. The canned cycles for just about any part feature you could ever need. They could knock out a ready to use fixture in the time it took to square the material on a normal Bridgeport. These were some complex fixtures not simple drill guide fixtures or that type stuff. There's no comparison.
I do almost exclusively one of parts (Tool and Die department), we have thrown out all but one manual lathe and a mill that gets used maybe 2 hours in a week, all other machines are CNC. IF you have your cnc speced and setup for one of parts then it is hard to find a job that would be quicker on a manual.
To take the flange part as an example once that is clamped into the machine it would take less then 30s to probe the center of it then i would go to my computer next to the machine and open the cad/cam and click make hole circle, select 8 holes and a diameter. Then select the thread size from my macro list and click on one of the holes, change how deep i want to drill and tap hit calculate and send program. This is less then 2 minutes for a ready program and now i am drilling with a high hp spindle, through coolant carbide drills etc so those holes would be drilled, tapped and chamfered in no time.
All this requires that you are setup for one of parts with both the right machine and cad/cam software.
I have 60 common tools ready in the machine and prob 30 "less common" outside the machine that i can insert manually in the spindle. All of those tools are also in my tool list in the cam program with cutting data etc ready and in my cam macros.
The Jobs were a manual would be preferred are stuff like repair/modifications on certain old parts with no drawings available (especially irregular shaped castings) and where you have to take of some material by eye and maybe shim the part into a weird angle. The last job i sat up in the manual mill was ironically a rather large batch with stamped parts.
A single hole needed to be countersink and after machining the fixture in the CNC i moved it over to the manual.
Is this Scotty Kilmer's brother?
I have a small manual machine shop that can make about 30 p/n's of the product that a major client once made. The volume is low- 6-20 pcs per run generally. It's not a very juicy job for a job shop, and the logistics of getting me the parts is an outsize cost at that volume. Gotta write a PO, pay for delivery or go there to pick up, etc. Might even have to negotiate or clarify the job to the machinist. Or I can order 6 feet of material from McMaster-Carr, and consume it making a p/n.
Under this scenario, I won't be tempted by CNC until I want to make their more sophisticated p/n's. But that can wait. Currently installing DRO's and good places to keep everything at hand to minimize excess movement during an operation. I am sure that the DRO will close the gap to the CNC throughput significantly.
The right tool for the right job. The people who won't give you one off work because you dont have CNC's are probably looking for some place that can also pump out larger runs.
I'd guess it is the Starbucks-effect, which I just made up; but you can also quote me on that..... when in the balcans you' d amass tourists infront of a Starbucks when they think of coffee whereas you could easily find the best in some old Kavana, Buffet or so in a small town with tractors infront of it. Or in an Bosnian household served around 2pm called Zaćekuša.
I only run manual equpiment at home (for a hobby) and my work is nothing to do with machining at all (though I have done a little CNC a long time ago).
His last statements say it all (taliking about self driving cars) - he says he doesn't want a computer driving for him and also that "it's no fun". But self-driving cars are vastly superior to human drivers. They still occasionally crash and they're not perfect, but you're more likely to have a crash if you're in control manually. So even when something is demonstrably better, the 'old ways' are still preferred.
This mindset is why he doesn't want to consider CNC - and they've come a long way from the film he talks about. Making a 3D drawing in CAD is a lot easier and faster than it used to be and depending on the designer your 'drawings' may even come as a 3D file ready for the CAM software. Good CAM software is also quick and easy to use. For the CNC run it doesn't matter that there is a (possibly) unwarranted complex curve - the CNC will produce the part to the original spec just as well and just as fast whether it has a complex curve or a simple step so why not create more aesthetic pieces?
Finally, regarding how many pieces before CNC is better - I'd much prefer to pay labourer rates to keep stock up and replace/sharpen tooling to CNC equipment that is cranking out product while my machinist does initial setup/CAD/CAM for other work, than paying machinist rates for manual repetition that a mindless machine could do faster. It's just good business (alhtough a bit sad for machinists admittedly).
I’m really good at programming manually. I’ve done it for 20 years. That said we do keep a deckel around and a manual b-port, but generally I can do one offs faster on the Mazak or the old V2xt. But, I do a lot of other crap other than making parts while my little Mazak is running.
Most of the crap I make is faster for me to gcode it than it is to do it in Cam. Drives the younger engineers crazy.
I've been manually programming for a few years and this is definitely my experience too.
Our Mazak turning centers, were lightning fast, handed you the parts safely, and quite efficient. All you did was feed and stack, and change inserts. Made sintered metal coil housings, for clutches. Sintered and investment castings, saved time and money, over the other methods.
this guy needs to experience the joys of a mazak sqt 15 with live tools and the old conversational control. programming is so easy once you get used to the language
The first NC mill, I ever had to work with, was bigger than my bedroom, about fourteen feet high, with a table, about the same as a Bridgeport. Tape ran, had to climb a few steps, to operate it. I couldn't see how it could pay for itself, in my lifetime. Ran a tracer mill, too. Modern CNCs, are made for production, some, have gantries and robots, that seem to have disdain for humans. Kinda like what some women, think of men. As I was running a Kitamura, twenty second cycles, and three tools. Face and plunge with an endmill, drill through, and ream. I designed a machine, to cycle them through, in half the time. All I needed to do was sand off the flash, and feed them into the tube. Now that was for the four different cams in the Ford transfer cases. Not all cycles are twenty seconds. The 5th & 6th, and reverse forks, for Borg and Tremec, had three ops, and over three minutes of cycle time. Most of the in-between time, was getting the forks parallel. The coolant was aimed so as to allow fixture changes, while running, so it wouldn't stop. Because there was always a truck, waiting to go to Mexico.
Singles or small batch vs production? No comparison. I'm still using programs on production parts that are 15yrs old. (I have an old cnc and loyal customers.) Also, I have basic programs that I can change a few measurements for basic shapes.
I have no cnc machines in my workshop. I don’t tend to make ultra complicated parts but what do make I enjoy the machining process. But like Ford vs Ferrari. Both have a place in their market. One is mass production nice products the other is bespoke hand made. One sells 100 million the other sells 100 thousand. End of the day both sets of customers are happy and staff at both enjoy their jobs. No matter cnc or manual machining just enjoy what you make.
10,000 TOOLS ? You need a computerizied inventory system to find the correct tool for the assigned job (unless your Howee after a couple cups of coffee) ! 😅
Full disclaimer: I'm still working on my degree and have very little experience in the machine shop, but I like to have opinions on everything!
As far as why the constant bias towards CNC/3d printing, I think its because thats what more accessible in terms of cost and space. I mean, even up at the university, most of the guys I know spend all their time in solidworks, then 3d print it becasue its so much easier to set one up in a dorm room. If thats all you end up working with, it just becomes what you know, so it becomes the hammer and nail problem.
The other thing is that learning how to work with G-Code on a 3d printer has a lot of cross over with CNC Mill or Lathe programing (so I'm told), so its an easy way to start getting familiar with it without having to invest the money and space into a full machine shop setup. Furthermore, the CAD programs we are taught typically contain a tool path generation function, often with a companion simulation function to run that tool path on the computer before it gets run through a machine. This makes visualizing the entire processs easier, along with giving a very flashy animation to show off to everyone who needs to see it. Again, when thats the perspective that you visualize the entire process through, it makes every part look like a CNC'ed part. It also doesn't help that companies like to advertise "machined from a single block of aluminum". Sure sounds flashy, but that does sound like a lot of wasted material!
I wish we had more classes with a hands on learning without using computers all the time. Not even as the whole class, but just one or two more hands on labs per class. The only reason I kept going with an ME degreee path was because of the machine shop lab for Industrial Processes! Its staggering how much you learn about production when you actually have to build the thing yourself, and it just makes you appreciate the time and effort of going though each class that lead up to that moment.
Most DROs will have a function for walking off a bolt hole pattern. Dividing head is too much work for a simple bolt hole circle
We’ve had jobs come in that, in the past would have cast in features, that they want fully cnc’ing from standard stock (flame cut plate and whatnot) not realising how long that kind thing can take. For the sake of saving money on the castings.
Saying that our shop has several millions on cnc machine tools, but we still have a load of manual machines and in my humble opinion manual machines are irreplaceable
My shop has both because we can run the simple stuff on the manuals while the CNCs do the more complex or involved jobs and not need to keep track of that many extra programs. I don't get the rivalry, I think it's important to know both so you have that many more tricks for when you can't do it the way you would have preferred.
Agreed. I don't get the rivalry either.
been operating a lathe and shaper for around 6 years now , one off jobs , repairs , and modification jobs are just alot better suited to manual machinign as well as jobs with poor material quality (like porosity hard spots and welding)
of course cnc and manual will always have their pros and cons, i cant help but think about somthing like a swiss machine when it came to your pin example, even a cam driven swiss machine i feel would be able to do 10k parts more efficiantly then a drill press. of course the specs of the part do matter and not everyone is going to have access to a swiss machine or the expertise to run a cam driven one (i certainly dont).
Sort of the part you speak of if you were serious you would have a fixture for that holds 2 or 4 or more on a tombstone that holds multiple fixtures and have a pallet system on the machine to swap out toomstones and each of thoes flanges on a machine with adequate power and a good cam programer should be down to less than 30 seconds on somthing that simple and it should be compleatly finnished and de burred
the most annoying things I watched freshmen 3d print when I ran the college 3d printing lab were
- flat plates with holes in them
- gears
- spheres or hemispheres
- sticks
would have loved an actual machine shop class honestly, took me until doing a student racecar club to realize how to actually design things practically
0:55 That would have been a lot more interesting if they gave a CNC programmer and journeyman machinist the plans at the same time and had them make a few copies of the part. Regardless of who finishes first, you'll be able to see the difference in preparation time and time per part once you're up and running.
I converted my manual lathe and mill to CNC. I use manual data input for most of my work, in other words, I just use the CNC to turn the handles. But there are times I use conversational CNC/wizards to do the donkey work such as taking a lot of material out of a bore or reducing a diameter by a large amount. Occasionally I sit at the computer and produce a finished profile that is a bit more than just facing and turning a part. I still manually change the tools and set the correct diameters and face position. I have just finished making 4 retaining rings for someone. After the lathe these were put on the mill for drilling and tapping six holes on a pitch circle diameter around the centre bore. I used a probe and the CNC to locate the centre, fit the spotting drill, pilot drill and tapping drill (set zero for each one by eye) and used conversational CNC to make the holes. I tapped manually afterwards rather than mess about tapping using the mill since I would have had to use thread milling and with what I have that is only worth doing when there are blind holes. For me this is the best mix of manual and CNC since I am only doing this as a hobby for a few beers.
yeah its complexity and and quantity that could determine which would be better.
Thing the CNC sufficants forget, to write a good program for even a relatively simple program your looking at an hour or more just to write the code, another hour or so to set up, but you save 2 minutes in cycle time... For short run stuff or simple second operations can't beat a manual with a competent machinist. (I've worked with plenty of "programmers" that couldn't write even a simple program in less then 8 hours...)
A lot of the programmers I've worked with, were simply good at bull shitting the owners, cause they could navigate microsoft windows or MS-Dos... didn't know a damned thing about machining but they could prattle on about Ram and gigibytes
And yes at one time I could write simple drill cycle, facing, or even basic profiling (with corner rounding) long hand faster then it took to walk to the office and chew out the "programmer" but, thats not exactly a common ability in the shops I worked at (its also a reason I got fired more often then not... cause the "programmers" were often the "leads")
The code writing point becomes null and void when you consider that CAM softwares exist that write the code for you after you design the part
@@friedpixel7517 not exactly "after you design the part", if you dont make lots and lots of similar parts, you most likely dont have macros set up in the CAM, but even a really complex parts can be programmed within a couple hours, simpler parts that are suited for manual machines can pre programmed in about 20minutes, including coffee break, setup time in machine depends mostly on the type of part and what specific tools you need for that part, quite a lot of parts can be made with only a couple standard tools, sacrificing seconds off of run time for ease of setup, letting interpolation doing all the hard work...
@@friedpixel7517 The Cam software does not make good programs all by itself, despite what seems to be common practice these days, its still dependent on a programmer having a clue to what machining processes can and should be done, clicking the solid file and saying DO IT does not make you a programmer, or a machinist
@@PGspeed88 yer absolutely correct, however, not a whole lot of "programmers" out there that CAN write a simple program, THAT WORKS in a few minutes, Hel most of the ones I've worked with would take 4-5 hours to make a simple hole pattern, let alone any sort of profile or roughing work. Any moron can click on a solid file and have the CAM software "decide" the "best" method, a real machinist and programmer is what makes it work well, every time, same goes for manual machines, takes more then the ability to turn some handles and tighten a chuck/vice to make a machinist, current industry (at least around here) proves that daily
I’m seeing too many it’s either this or that here. Whether to CNC or not is a more comp,ex question=ion. It’s not just the comp,entity of the part, though sometimes it is, or the number of parts, though sometimes it is, but rather the entirety of the operation. For a small shop, such as Howie’s, or something similar, it may be that they will simply not do certain jobs. But large shops it may be a different story.
Of course, Howie is talking here of simple CNC. Many modern machines are five or even more axis’s and that work is almost impossible to do manually, even with dividing heads, hydraulic or otherwise, combine that with large numbers of parts and CNC is mandatory. Modern CNC also tends to be more accurate.
Programming time can take several days for some highly complex high accuracy parts. But once it’s worked out the results are worth it, again particularly if there is a fair number needed.
But all that’s in favor of CNC. There are many reasons why it’s not the best solution, or at least, a necessary one.
Yea and the buggy whip manufacturers were real mad at Henry Ford. I ran some of the first NC machines in 1978 and they were clearly a game changer. I also ran tracer machines.
Wire EDM machines were also a huge improvement.
To me this boils down to: how long does it take one person to to set up end produce X number of part( s) versus all the the time to write the program set up the CNC, prepare the raw material for the CNC and run X number of parts. Some times an assembly line set up of different machines is faster than one CNC. If all depends on what the part is ( complexity) and efficiency.
Nice chat. Engineering obsolescence has taken over the world.
Explorer drill head or Commander drill head ? --Doozer
I completely agree with everything you say in this video. Especially about poor engineering. I guess I'd say im 50/50 you want CNC or Manual get a prototrak. We sold our 2 bridgeports for 2 traks and they are awesome. Go I to DRO mode if you want to go old school, but you have the option of CNC for curves without a table.
CNC is good for mass production when you don't have to change the program for various different parts. The only thing is regular maintenance is still required.
A manually made part is better for many different parts that require precision machining
3d is important for foundry production tools. The tooling that makes castings cab be very complex, and they used to do it on a bench with wood. Now it’s done on a cnc, and it’s super fast compared to the old school. Bench guys are very valuable still, probably paid more than cnc guys. The bench guys are masters of the manual trade in pattern work
We have a Makino A71 with a 500 tool magazine.
Times have changed with designing parts in the 70's-80's. Parts aren't just flat, square or rectangles. Most parts do multiple things. less assembly and hardware needed. They can be made (fancy as you say) to reduce weight. So, machining on a cnc makes more sense. Been machining since 1983, So I did a lot of manual machining. Now own a shop with cnc mills & cnc lathes. Manual yes, I have still. Bridgeport is the best drill press in the shop. Manual lathe mostly for polishing and occasional government job.
I really like your videos I met you in fairbanks last year you always have really good advice
I admire your philosophy. You are a true inspiration. If you're ever in Northwest Ohio you'd fit right in at our place
With modern controls, especially conversational with a probe and tool setter i think you could program and run a part quicker than a manual machine
Absolutely.
The way I see it. CNC is more for product production, not one offs . Or possibly complex jobs. Where multiple processes are required. It's like using a micro controller to flash a light, a simple flasher will do the job!
As a machinist and Ingenieur (as its spelled in german) i learned " form follows function", today its "proprietary form for functioning a certain time span". I hate that. But a company selling long lasting easy repairable items will bankrupt itself after selling the item to everyone that needs it...and i agree, the designing process was never easier than today as you dont have to worry how to machine that part, cnc will be able to, or wire edm, or whatever. Poor design became popular, no need to pay for good design when you can machine a poor designed part cheap.
personally, i don't see the evidence that making built to last easy to repair products would actually lead to bankruptcy, or even less profit long term.
problem is, the bean counters only think short term.
worst case should be an eventual flattening when dying equipment starts to match production of new equipment.
though there will always be some development where new tech or ideas leads to improvements worth buying new equipment for some people, but even if that's not the case plenty of people will want to expand their equipment pool.
@ARockRaider true, a company selling long lasting items will bankrupt itself more likely because of no innovation or too less innovation - there is always a thin line of evolving a project into an innovative one or just updating a very good product. Many companies in Germany no longer build machines or went out of business because their product or machine was superior and almost everlasting, but alsoI because of lack of innovation - selling a superior but outdated product.
Companies only trying to sell short time products often also just throw out new inventions, worth it or not. I guess it is complicated but the bean counters definitly made it worse.
And yes, today very seldom things are built long term - but because money is wanted in short term, design and selling needs to be also.
Still dont like it 🤣
If cars were built to last, you would only have to buy one, your whole life. Imagine, everyone has a Model T. I would say that, 99 out of a 100 kids, couldn't start one, or know what the reverse pedal does. And I would guess that Howie and I, would have to be taught, how a Tesla, drives itself.
Anyone run a machine shop in florida?
Even with multiple drills on a manual machine, it would be a close race with stupid fast CNCs like Fanuc Robodrill or Brother Speedio, running modern carbide drills with 70bar TSC. Those holes look pretty close to 16mm (5/8"), that would give you around 4-4.5k rpm at around 2800rpm at 1750mm/min feed, holes are about 10-12mm deep, that gives you 0.5 second to drill a single hole, so 4 seconds to drill all 8 holes, plus some rapids, on robodrill it would take 2-3 more seconds... Also, the spindle load would peak at around 17-18kw, how much power do those old machines have?
Dont get me wrong, manual machines still have their placr in a machine shop, but high volume production has moved on years ago.
Uh, have you ever seen a multi head drill, in a manual machine? The trick is to offset the drills, so they don't all start together. And you don't overload the old motor, that probably, has twice the service factor, than listed. We used to make aluminum racing hubs, and drilled the spoke holes, at one time.
@@everettplummer9725 starting a drill vs. keeping the drill engaged does not change the spindle load that much, all i was trying to say, when it comes to sheer speed, in this case the CNC wins, also, going from one hole pattern to another would be faster, just around 5-6 button presses, if it was programmed in the controls and not in cam. I am not saying that manual machines have no use in a machine shop, just that when it comes to higher volume production there is no competing with automation
Oh for the days when motoring was fun, in Britain there are a disproportionate number of traffic enforcement cameras and disproportionately slow speed limits that motoring is no longer fun but a chore.😭😭😭😭
If you ever make it across the pond there are a few very empty highways with no traffic enforcement cameras and lots of permafrost induced dips and bobs to scoot over in Alaska.
-Cameraman
@@HOWEES would love to but at my age the all year round mild climate of old London Town suits me just fine. Perhaps in another life, but by then you will probably over run with those pesky cameras too.😉
The rapid release of internal stress in the material will always be the cnc machines down fall, plus a computer can not compensate for unforeseen conditions. I was building a mold for a simple sink plug and they had a call-out for +/- .0001" on a corner radius. Their tolerance was higher than the expected shrinkage of the material after the molding process and it was completely pointless, that radius could have been +/- .030" but the technology is there so let's take advantage of it. Cut the tolerance in half and you double the production time, so keep that in mind.
One of the things I like to do with manual support machines for my VMC is stock prep. I'll cut my stock and then mill one edge of it to establish a true surface and then that edge gets butted up against a stop in the vise of the VMC. Sometimes simplifies things when I have a part that just needs brought to size from stock and some features machined into it. The alternative is putting in soft jaws and doing both ends in the CNC and sometimes it's faster to prep the one edge on the manual and then use parallels and regular hard jaws in the VMC.
Amen, John.
Howee fears no engineer. Great stuff
The game changer with CNC is repartition of item...also it reduces subsequent setups because of ability to store the parameters.
please do a video on lathe tracers
I have an almost brand new Cnc mill with the probe and tool changer. I have a new Prototrak bed mill as well. I do prototyping for aerospace. The Prototrak is the best of both worlds. If it had an automatic tool changer it would be perfect. You can use it manually or as a cnc and programming is easy thru the conversational control. I like that it’s open and you can get right up on the part with a loupe if you need to to really dial something in. That being said, these are $140,000 worth of machines. And the software is $3000 a year.
I will agree that the Prototrak is absolutely the best fusion of CNC and manual. All of the perks of a manual machine with the extra capabilities of a CNC.
I did a research project on the history of CNC machining when I went to trade school ( industrial technology- sort of engineer-y, but also sort of trades-y ) and the biggest advantage that was touted by the people that created this technology, was the repeatability factor. They were just trying to engineer the “human” out of “ human error “. I have to agree with you, there are reasons for CNC, and there are reasons for manual machining. I think it comes down to the engineering, and the lack of production sense that asks the question “ Just because we can, SHOULD we?”. Keep up the good work 👍.
I have a theory about all of this perfectly calibrated robotic manufacturing that that takes human error out of the equation.
At some point nearly everything is going to be made perfectly, and because of that, we will then get bored with perfection and to some degree begin to desire human error with some things. Where each item made is unique.
I can’t remember a specific example, but there are even some items that are specifically manufactured with a flaw to appear handmade.
And then some people desire handmade items over machine made, even if it’s a slightly inferior product. Just look at how Japan has precision manufacturing, but their culture also values expertly crafted handmade items.
Well I would 100% agree with you because as a cnc machinist I ONLY have cnc at my disposal I would love a mill over here for quick operations. That being said I cut features on the daily that are smaller than 1mm we use 1mm cutters and 3/32 cutters daily and there's no way youre gonna make any features with that size cutters on a manual mill.
Well my friend, I guess you have never met Mark.
Sounds like the old saying. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I am a mechanical engineer. I prefer to deal with what I call " hybrid " shops. That have both CNC and "manual" machines. Usually better machinists, and more flexible outcomes.
I’m not a machinist by trade, I’m an electronics engineer. But if I need less than a handful of simple mechanical parts I’ll just machine it on a manual mill and lathe and I design mechanical things so I can manually machine it easily. If I need more than maybe five or ten parts, I’ll send it out to a shop and let them decide if they want to do it manually or on a CNC.
A dividing plate and a tracer versus CNC! Muahahaha! I own a large machine shop. I have one building full of large and small manual machines as well as a full grind room. The other building is full of older and modern CNC machines. Manual rarely outperforms CNC. Manual is so reliant on the tool maker or machinist running the machine correctly with regards to DOC, sfm, ipr, etc that it's difficult to quote the jobs correctly and win unless the quoting is based on the machinist. I had the same job ran on manual, and then CNC the next time, and reviewed the profit, the job performance as well as the surface finishes, and CNC almost always wins.
45yrs in the trade, ran many manual machines back in the day. The parts are far too complex to machine without CNC today. We have been programing at the machine w/computer and powermill software since 1997 and never looked back. Programing is simple and once the machine is running you are programming the next operation. Wouldn't have it any other way. Yes there is still room for a manual lathe and small mill for repairs, other than that, no.
This was a great story … we were just having a manual , CNC discussion today …
Love old school. CNC has it's place, but old school still rocks.
Both manual machining and CNC machining have their place. I used to work at a CNC production shop. We ran the same parts all the time and in my work center the only time we had to write a new program was when we had to make a spacer body with an overall length that was different than what we already had programs for, or when management decided to off load some work onto us from a work center that was behind when my work center was slow. My current job as a maintenance technician in a completely different industry we have an engine lathe and a vertical knee mill in the maintenance shop. When I was working in a production machine shop I enjoyed having the CNC machines. However as a maintenance tech that mainly has to make one off parts or make repairs on existing parts I much prefer the manual machines. Sure it might take me longer to physically machine something than the cycle time of a CNC machine, but by the time you factor in writing the program and setting up the CNC machine it might be faster to make the one off using manual machines.
It's as if engineers get paid by the complexity of the part versus the function.
They also adjust their speech. For example:
The plural for axis is axes.
Engineers say: axessees
The plural for process is processes.
Engineers say processees.
I can go on but you get it.
This guy is completely out of touch with reality and thinks demonstration "hype" videos on RUclips represent CNC's and 3D printing's usefulness... We're not using punchcards anymore, that "bias" is the norm.
Curves? Flow and thermal dynamics, FEA, vibration, compliance, ergonomics, clearance, and, yes, aesthetic and packaging matters. Like, sorry, a bone plate actually needs to conform to the bone's shape.
You can have 100+ tool magazines, pallet pools, robots, bar pushers, etc. absolutely eat manual machining alive. You pretty much need to CAD anyways, CAM is not that much more effort. And those beds will absolutely clamp down a crusty brake caliper to cut out a siezed guide pin.
The only place left for manual is "big iron." Because it just costs too much to make new giant machines versus just reconditioning old ones. And even those will get some automation.
I love manual. I think it's an important part of continued education for a machinist. But I don't even recommend learning it in the beginning, because your CNC skills determine whether or not you can put food on the table. The most you should ever learn in the old ways at the begining is how to use a sine bar, surface plates, and various indicators/measuring tools, including gauge blocks.
Don't listen to the dinosaurs. Everything, from material removal rate, tool life, surface finishes, thermal compensation, accuracy, repeatability, chip and coolant management, and the ability to quickly hit fourth and fifth axes, is better with CNC. And automation features only make it even faster, meaning a one-man business can develop and manufacture more and better products like never before.
Meanwhile my cnc machine with a pallet changer and 71 tool pockets is running a bunch one off parts all night while I'm at home asleep. We've figured out how to do high mix low volume work on cnc machines in the 90s. Manual machines are only really profitable when machining very large parts now days imo.
I love repairing antique motorcycles, designing "reliability improvement parts" or just all around piecing them together. Its hard to beat a well built manual machine with good tooling/work holding for what I do. Saving my pennies for the digital threading upgrade for the lathe though. I could do without messing with those gears 😂
A foundry guy came in with a job of making two pipe flanges. Inch thick, Procut hotroll, for a two foot pipe. I made the first one, two key slots, four holes. Had a DRO, without the bolt circle calculator, so I used my calculator, clamped it once, drilled and machined it once. The lathe guy is making the second one, the mill doesn't have enough travel to just drll the holes N,S,E, and W. So being a lathe guy, math is taboo, he dialed it in three times, and clamped it down, three times, to drill four holes and two notches. Math can mean the difference between profit and loss.
CNC machines can produce a lot of good products, or a operator can create a lot of scrape. We had a whole shift of over bored shifting forks, because the guy, didn't try both ends with the No Go. I checked the Go, all the way through, and both ends, on every single cam, I machined, like a habit. CNC machines are fast, and that can be a bad thing. I noticed slop in the table, when cleaning out the chips. The thrust bearings had worn out. I guess the coordinate machine, was showing it for awhile, and the quality control guy, would come out, and make small adjustments, over time, and not addressing the real issue. When I could push the table, back and forth, 3/8ths of an inch, it was time to order bearings. CNC machines, need maintenance too. Not micro adjustments. Communication is key.
Manual machining is no match for CNC. Manual machining is more costly, less accurate, and slower with a steep learning curve. A single CNC machine performs most operations of a mill and lathe. It also doesn't require as much tooling and fixtures as manual machines do. Equipped with just an end mill, for instance, a CNC can perform a lot of operations that would otherwise require several tools, fixtures, and complex setups on a manual machine, resulting in significant cost saving and faster production.
Manual machines have a very steep learning curve. To master the use manual machines, you must be a trained machinist which requires a broad set of skills in a wide range of disciplines. It takes years of training and experience to become one. A CNC has a much shorter learning curve to operate one. Contrary to what was stated in the video, programming CNCs are no longer an issue. Today's CAM software is far easier to use and more productive than the old days when they were programmed using G-Code exclusively. Someone with zero experience can become a competent CNC operator in a matter of a weeks or months.
Prototyping will always be faster on a manual machine. For making one part CNC doesn't make sense. Production work, CNC is undoubtedly faster even when you account for programming time.
2:50 and ill bet the CNC program was on punch tape and took 3 4 hours to write the program and set up the mill.
Honestly back then the journey set a better time for a one off part.
Now in 2023 its done with cad
The blueprints in cad the computer takes the drawing you pick the part your making and the parameters are done by the computer not someone writing code for 8 hours a day. He's just pulling parts to make off the drawing.
Now its 5 axis not 3. The manual machinist almost can't do that type of work. Well not in a production time. The parts too complex and he would be making jigs all day to do operations you can't normally do.
The computers today are a lot more advanced and a lot smaller.
Your machinist is still 5' 10" 210 lbs and hasn't changed much ecpt for his smart phone.
I’ll say it again and again. You choose your machine, I’ll choose mine. Bet I’m quicker, and my choice will be CNC.
In today's work force the technicians are probably less intelligent 🤓 as you are . And CNC is slowly taking over. I am a welder fabricator for the last 2 and a half decades. And most all shops I have worked in have had a CNC burn table.
SOOOO much copium in this video. There is a time and place for each tool.
His rant about engineering is hilarious. So the engineering team at Porsche that designed light weight internally cooled 3d printed pistons for its racing team was just lazy? No. That's not the case at all. They took advantage of the new technology to pioneer a design that wouldn't be feasible by any other method.
Honestly this video is cringe inducing. It's pretty clear that he hasn't spent time working in a modern shop. With things like thread mills you can use one tool to make a multitude of thread pitches. On a CNC machine I can make any size hole I need with one end mill and some helical interpolation. I don't have to spot/drill/ream to get to a specific hole size. I can cutter comp the tool, aim small, and comp it out until i get exact size needed. With a probe in the machine I can find center on the part before he even has in indicator in his manual machine.
Manual can be just as fast as cnc. Warner and swazey turret lathes were just as fast as a cnc. The problem is you need a body in front of it all the time.
Isn't that the way they always sell people on new stuff. Deceiving you from the start. I was taught years ago, if it was that great I would be knocking on there door to buy it. They wouldn't be knocking on my door to sell it.
I'm of the opinion that the CNC machines are prefered by the corporations mainly because they eliminate the need to properly train and pay machinists. We see the same thing happening in the millwork shops. Eliminating the need to train people also eliminates a lot of their competition.
Woah, careful with talking about legislation... Someone might get some ideas.
All I hear is excuses from someone that can’t program. Cnc beats manual, faster, more accurate and better on tools. assuming you are a good programmer
I will add that I sometimes wish that I had some manual machines, because using the CNC lathe that we have as a manual lathe is really horrible.
He looks just like my old chemistry professor ... Dr Doug McIntosh