There are many layers to scripture and all can be true. You’ve given me things to think on. Jonah has become one of my favorite books for Foreshadowing. Jonah’s Deep Dive is a video I made about a year ago. The Gospel is all through Jonah.
@@Thesmokymountainman Yes. I could have gone to the Jonah story of Jesus crossing the lake to go to a gentile region. Big storm. Disciples panicked. Jesus was asleep in the boat. He gets up to speak and the wind and waves obey his voice.
@@timmartin4216 Great points of comparison between Jonah and Jesus, Brother Tim. I recently came to the realization of Psalm 89:9 and how it was fulfilled by Jesus in passages like Matthew 8:26 and 27 and how the disciples were amazed that He could calm a storm as only God can do that. Conclusion: Jesus is God!
Very interesting conversation. Thank you, Brother Tim and Brother Randy. When you mentioned that the name Jonah means dove and how it symbolizes a new creation or a new beginning, I also thought of Noah sending out a dove after the flood to start anew as it were (Genesis 8:8). A small correction, if I may. At the one hour and two minute mark of the video, the slide shows 2 Cr. 13:14, and it should be 2 Cr. 33:14 instead. Also, I wonder if in Jonah 2:7 when Jonah said: "When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord" if that "remembered" has a covenantal connotation of him getting back into covenant with God. Lastly, since I'm fairly new to the Covenant Creation hermeneutic (but not so new to Full Preterism), I find it difficult to know when to take something literally and when not to with regards to the Genesis account(s). In the end, I still don't know whether Jonah was swallowed by a literal fish or not, for example. I ask this honestly. Blessings.
Thank you for your correction! One of the purposes of the video was to show that Jonah was not literally swallowed by a “great fish”. When tracing through the narrative and nailing down the circumstances, the most logical conclusion was that Jonah was intercepted by another ship and taken back to Israel. Also, God sending Jonah to Nineveh is considered preparing a “great fish” since Israel would be swallowed-up by the Assyrian Captivity 28 years later. In that respect the great fish narrative can be considered prophetic writing motif. To teach Jonah was literally swallowed by a fish and spent three days inside the fish is to teach confusion. It’s unhealthy for Christianity to do that.
I felt the same way when I first came upon Pastor Steve platform about the second coming. I had no problem in believing it because it made perfect sense. Then anything I had heard preach
@@timmartin4216added to my list. But that's too bad. We really need some new translations that work with both the LXX and MT and try to harmonize some things. It would be so good for NT understanding....and for people to see the truth of preterism.
Here are the Books I talked about in order: 1. “The Creation Battle, Win Lose or Draw” by Daniel Eaton 2. “The Sumerians” by Samuel Noah Kramer 3. “Historical Genesis: From Adam to Abraham” by Richard James Fischer 4. “Beyond Creation Science” by Tim Martin and Jeff Vaughn 5. “The Chronological Guide to the Bible” by Thomas Nelson publishers 6. “The Essential Bible Companion” by John H Walton, Mark L Strauss, amd Ted Cooper Jr. 7. “Bible Map Guide” by Common English Bible publishers.
At the risk of sounding dumb or like a big weirdo - could the groups of animals in the ark story have been representative of different people groups? I’ve wondered about that since hearing Mark (forgot his last name)’s presentation on the book of Enoch and symbolism at one of the old Covenant Creation conferences (he was the one who used to work for Disney, and Answers in Genesis).
@@heartsandmindsathome "Representative of different people groups" is the general conclusion for those who hold to covenant creation, yes. The question that usually follows is if these were people, in fact, rather than animals. I don't believe the story was designed to answer such questions. Augustine and many other theologians have seen in this story the foreshadowing of the salvation of Israel and the nations with the coming of Jesus, a new Noah. Recall that the Great Tribulation is explicitly paralleled to the flood story all across the New Testament including the Olivet Discourse. Here is a deep dive related to your question, and how the symbolism works across the Bible: ruclips.net/video/sDdIhnEPZj0/видео.htmlsi=oj9LyHseT9Hi5MHh
Hades or Sheol are only metaphors for a spiritual state of a person or people who are outside of God's presence and will. God's kingdom is spiritually omnipresent, and all souls enter this glorious dimension, at the latest at the end of their life on earth. Blessing
Yes a person who was unclean would be considered dead or cut off while they were still living, yet have the opportunity to become clean again meaning alive or blessed. But upon the death of a person, the soul had yet to be redeemed until Jesus, so yes the soul was in a specific place, Sheol or Hades, until resurrection(Judgement on the soul) occurred. So no it wasn’t a metaphor, but there is a two fold concept to this. A righteous person, until Jesus, still experienced Sheol until the souls redemption and judgment occurred. Some were raised to life and some to condemnation. Yes being cast out of the land is a death because of being unclean and curse upon the land and people, but restoration Is not resurrection, but just that, a restoring to the land, being made clean, and under the blessing until a time of rebellion would occur again.
@@markusmustermann1265 The idea presented in Revelation is that New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth, so that God lives with and in his people now. It's not presented the way you suggest of "going to heaven" after death. That is more of a Greek notion along the lines of Platonic philosophy.
@@timmartin4216 I don’t think so, because if we say going from clean to unclean is resurrection, or a conversion let’s say like Paul, he would have said it was a type of resurrection in Phillipians 3:10-14 instead of saying specifically that he had not attained to a resurrection like Christs meaning His soul had yet to experience a not guilty verdict, and having the ability to approach God without mediation, whether animal atonement or covering, or the specific mediation of Jesus through the Spirit until the time He judged the souls of men allowing them into the direct presence. I think this is where Hebrews 9:8 is so important. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing Also 2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. That I think is where we conflate resurrection with conversion or restoration in many circles. Also another reason why Paul is so mad at Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2nd Timothy, because he knows conversion is not resurrection and no man has the ability yet to enter directly into Gods presence without mediation because judgment of the soul had yet to take place in the history of mankind, until Jesus competes that act, separating the wheat from the chaff as a finality, and handing a purified bride/soul to God.
@@timmartin4216I don’t believe restoration or conversion is a type of resurrection since the main concept of resurrection in the NT deals with the souls verdict of guilty or not guilty, allowing them into the presence of God without mediation of any kind in the eternal state. I say this because Paul, one of the greatest converts obviously, specifically says he had not partaken in a resurrection like Christs in Phill 3:10-14. Only a likeness of His death, meaning he still needed Jesus’s and the Spirits mediation to honor God, but no longer under the curse of the flesh and its clean and unclean ordinances. He would have said it was a type, but not a fulfillment instead of a specific statement of not haven partaking of it yet. What was Jesus’s resurrection. The first human soul to enter Gods presences( without mediation whatsoever) upon a not guilty verdict/inheritance, giving Him the ability to judge men’s souls upon His return to separate the wheat and the chaff with finality, and handing God a pure bride, while the 2nd death upon the guilty lead to their final verdict, whether that’s annihilation or torment in the eternal state, which people debate and I don’t know for sure lol Hebrews 9:8 is so important. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing And this verse is also why I believe Paul was so mad at Hymenaeus and Philetus, because he knew that judgement on the soul had yet to occur. He would not have condemned them so harshly if it would have been just a confusion on their part thinking they had partaken in a type of resurrection until the fullness had come. He knew what that language meant and the ramifications of that thought process and teaching..
Excellent! Excellent! Excellent!
There are many layers to scripture and all can be true. You’ve given me things to think on.
Jonah has become one of my favorite books for Foreshadowing. Jonah’s Deep Dive is a video I made about a year ago.
The Gospel is all through Jonah.
@@Thesmokymountainman
Yes. I could have gone to the Jonah story of Jesus crossing the lake to go to a gentile region.
Big storm. Disciples panicked. Jesus was asleep in the boat.
He gets up to speak and the wind and waves obey his voice.
@ Parallels also to Noah, Moses and The New Jerusalem are in my video. We have slow down when we read. Blessings brother
@@timmartin4216 Great points of comparison between Jonah and Jesus, Brother Tim. I recently came to the realization of Psalm 89:9 and how it was fulfilled by Jesus in passages like Matthew 8:26 and 27 and how the disciples were amazed that He could calm a storm as only God can do that. Conclusion: Jesus is God!
What a great discussion together. Thank You
How fun! I remember this gentleman from my old facebook days, perusing preterist groups :) Looking forward to the conversation!
Very interesting conversation. Thank you, Brother Tim and Brother Randy. When you mentioned that the name Jonah means dove and how it symbolizes a new creation or a new beginning, I also thought of Noah sending out a dove after the flood to start anew as it were (Genesis 8:8). A small correction, if I may. At the one hour and two minute mark of the video, the slide shows 2 Cr. 13:14, and it should be 2 Cr. 33:14 instead. Also, I wonder if in Jonah 2:7 when Jonah said: "When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord" if that "remembered" has a covenantal connotation of him getting back into covenant with God. Lastly, since I'm fairly new to the Covenant Creation hermeneutic (but not so new to Full Preterism), I find it difficult to know when to take something literally and when not to with regards to the Genesis account(s). In the end, I still don't know whether Jonah was swallowed by a literal fish or not, for example. I ask this honestly. Blessings.
Thank you for your correction! One of the purposes of the video was to show that Jonah was not literally swallowed by a “great fish”. When tracing through the narrative and nailing down the circumstances, the most logical conclusion was that Jonah was intercepted by another ship and taken back to Israel. Also, God sending Jonah to Nineveh is considered preparing a “great fish” since Israel would be swallowed-up by the Assyrian Captivity 28 years later. In that respect the great fish narrative can be considered prophetic writing motif. To teach Jonah was literally swallowed by a fish and spent three days inside the fish is to teach confusion. It’s unhealthy for Christianity to do that.
@@randalnuss8371 Ok, Brother Randy. Many thanks for the kind answer.
I felt the same way when I first came upon Pastor Steve platform about the second coming. I had no problem in believing it because it made perfect sense. Then anything I had heard preach
Great books thank for sharing
Do these different words for man come through in the Koine Greek in the Septuagint?
@@JR-rs5qs
No.
I did a video on the subject:
m.ruclips.net/video/2jMsL7dyo20/видео.html&pp=ygUfQ292ZW5hbnQgcG9wdWxhdGlvbiBhbmQgbWFua2luZA%3D%3D
@@timmartin4216added to my list. But that's too bad. We really need some new translations that work with both the LXX and MT and try to harmonize some things. It would be so good for NT understanding....and for people to see the truth of preterism.
@ Modern Bible translation is a basket case.
@timmartin4216 seems like we all just need to learn Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew
@
I think if a true covenant theology grows, things might get better naturally on this front.
Of course, eschatology is the key to transformation.
Hope you put this out in writing
@@monicashuart-ls1hw
I linked to some of Randy's presentations from 2022 in the show notes.
They are very good.
Can you list the name Are the books in the comment, please?
Here are the Books I talked about in order:
1. “The Creation Battle, Win Lose or Draw” by Daniel Eaton
2. “The Sumerians” by Samuel Noah Kramer
3. “Historical Genesis: From Adam to Abraham” by Richard James Fischer
4. “Beyond Creation Science” by Tim Martin and Jeff Vaughn
5. “The Chronological Guide to the Bible” by Thomas Nelson publishers
6. “The Essential Bible Companion” by John H Walton, Mark L Strauss, amd Ted Cooper Jr.
7. “Bible Map Guide” by Common English Bible publishers.
@ thank
At the risk of sounding dumb or like a big weirdo - could the groups of animals in the ark story have been representative of different people groups? I’ve wondered about that since hearing Mark (forgot his last name)’s presentation on the book of Enoch and symbolism at one of the old Covenant Creation conferences (he was the one who used to work for Disney, and Answers in Genesis).
@@heartsandmindsathome
"Representative of different people groups" is the general conclusion for those who hold to covenant creation, yes.
The question that usually follows is if these were people, in fact, rather than animals. I don't believe the story was designed to answer such questions.
Augustine and many other theologians have seen in this story the foreshadowing of the salvation of Israel and the nations with the coming of Jesus, a new Noah. Recall that the Great Tribulation is explicitly paralleled to the flood story all across the New Testament including the Olivet Discourse.
Here is a deep dive related to your question, and how the symbolism works across the Bible:
ruclips.net/video/sDdIhnEPZj0/видео.htmlsi=oj9LyHseT9Hi5MHh
I’ll check it out, thank you!
@heartsandmindsathome
That is part of a series, but it will be very informative.
Somebody read my book! I was wondering who that was! 😉
Lol
Please lol
Hades or Sheol are only metaphors for a spiritual state of a person or people who are outside of God's presence and will. God's kingdom is spiritually omnipresent, and all souls enter this glorious dimension, at the latest at the end of their life on earth. Blessing
Yes a person who was unclean would be considered dead or cut off while they were still living, yet have the opportunity to become clean again meaning alive or blessed.
But upon the death of a person, the soul had yet to be redeemed until Jesus, so yes the soul was in a specific place, Sheol or Hades, until resurrection(Judgement on the soul) occurred.
So no it wasn’t a metaphor, but there is a two fold concept to this.
A righteous person, until Jesus, still experienced Sheol until the souls redemption and judgment occurred. Some were raised to life and some to condemnation.
Yes being cast out of the land is a death because of being unclean and curse upon the land and people, but restoration
Is not resurrection, but just that, a restoring to the land, being made clean, and under the blessing until a time of rebellion would occur again.
@duaneking273
Ok. Restoration as a typological resurrection? Does that work?
@@markusmustermann1265
The idea presented in Revelation is that New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth, so that God lives with and in his people now.
It's not presented the way you suggest of "going to heaven" after death. That is more of a Greek notion along the lines of Platonic philosophy.
@@timmartin4216 I don’t think so, because if we say going from clean to unclean is resurrection, or a conversion let’s say like Paul, he would have said it was a type of resurrection in Phillipians 3:10-14 instead of saying specifically that he had not attained to a resurrection like Christs meaning His soul had yet to experience a not guilty verdict, and having the ability to approach God without mediation, whether animal atonement or covering, or the specific mediation of Jesus through the Spirit until the time He judged the souls of men allowing them into the direct presence.
I think this is where Hebrews 9:8 is so important.
By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Also 2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
That I think is where we conflate resurrection with conversion or restoration in many circles.
Also another reason why Paul is so mad at Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2nd Timothy, because he knows conversion is not resurrection and no man has the ability yet to enter directly into Gods presence without mediation because judgment of the soul had yet to take place in the history of mankind, until Jesus competes that act, separating the wheat from the chaff as a finality, and handing a purified bride/soul to God.
@@timmartin4216I don’t believe restoration or conversion is a type of resurrection since the main concept of resurrection in the NT deals with the souls verdict of guilty or not guilty, allowing them into the presence of God without mediation of any kind in the eternal state.
I say this because Paul, one of the greatest converts obviously, specifically says he had not partaken in a resurrection like Christs in Phill 3:10-14. Only a likeness of His death, meaning he still needed Jesus’s and the Spirits mediation to honor God, but no longer under the curse of the flesh and its clean and unclean ordinances. He would have said it was a type, but not a fulfillment instead of a specific statement of not haven partaking of it yet.
What was Jesus’s resurrection. The first human soul to enter Gods presences( without mediation whatsoever) upon a not guilty verdict/inheritance, giving Him the ability to judge men’s souls upon His return to separate the wheat and the chaff with finality, and handing God a pure bride, while the 2nd death upon the guilty lead to their final verdict, whether that’s annihilation or torment in the eternal state, which people debate and I don’t know for sure lol
Hebrews 9:8 is so important. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
And this verse is also why I believe Paul was so mad at Hymenaeus and Philetus, because he knew that judgement on the soul had yet to occur. He would not have condemned them so harshly if it would have been just a confusion on their part thinking they had partaken in a type of resurrection until the fullness had come. He knew what that language meant and the ramifications of that thought process and teaching..