04:30 "Commit a genocide against the Canaanites" is a very poor framing of Joshua's conquest. It is subtly assuming that God commanded Israel to commit a crime (see the word "commit"), thereby subtly suggesting that God gave an evil command. Even though that's not the subject of this episode, it is interesting how easily that rolled off of Preston's tongue. Framing it as a genocide is also exactly how atheists and skeptics use those passages to attack God's goodness. I think an important part of Biblical literacy is to frame all questions and issues in the way the Bible frames them, not in the way God's enemies frame them.
I have longed for a formal program where laypeople could learn this way and improve their Bible literacy. IMO, this is not happening in the local church-nor should it. That's not necessarily the role of the Pastor, and most churches aren't gifted with enough teachers with the credentials/background to instruct in this manner. So let's create this! Who's in. Let's start an evening school where people can attend and get this type of education. Not to have a degree or to go into ministry (necessarily) but simply because they yearn to know more about God. Jen said to have a big vision. Well, there you go. What you say Preston? Lets build this thing.
I long for this, too! And I agree the Bible Project and Jen’s studies are both so great and fill a huge need. I wish something like this existed more in the local church, or even that the local church would BE this.
The Bible Project stuff is good-and free-but it's not what I'm searching for. It's a platform for self-learning, no different from podcasts, books, or a ton of other online resources. That's all good - but I am searching for a true interactive classroom-style education where students and teachers can engage, discuss, and study together. I don't learn well from a talking head - not my style - I need the interaction in a class room with group participation, etc.
This conversation exactly highlights my issues with the local church. I’ve prayed for years about whether my current church is where I should be and have finally started looking for a new church. But I’m realizing that the issue (for me) is how the modern church is structured. We put too much emphasis on Sunday morning preaching that is mostly application and not enough emphasis on discipleship and actually knowing the Bible. I long to find a church family that lives out intellectual study alongside application, and discipleship alongside community. Also, if you’re not familiar with Jen, just know she’s got a dry sense of humor, so there may be times that she sounds arrogant but she’s actually being sarcastic or joking. 😉
Appreciate the conversation, but I don't agree with the sentiment "our feelings are real but they are not reliable". I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of emotions. I prefer Dr. David Eckman's phrase, "Emotions don't tell me what is true, but what I believe to be true". I recommend his book, Theology of Emotions. Those who pit the intellect against the emotions (or vice versa) wil tend toward astonished annoyance with the limited purchase their arguments find in the populace since they are operating on a skewed anthropology.
I agree we can’t separate intelligence and emotions! I don’t think that’s what Jen means. Just curious--are you a man or woman, and if a woman what has your history in women’s ministry been like? If you’re a man, than you may not have the experience many women do of what she’s describing. I’m a woman and have loved Jen’s emphasis on using our brains and not just emotions as women. I have consistently disliked most women’s studies and gatherings over the years because of exactly what she describes. I want to be taught about the Bible and access the text intellectually, not only emotionally or application focused.
37:20 No, Jen, that discipleship function belongs in the FAMILY! The local church should be making it very clear to the adults in the room that fathers and mothers are responsible for teaching their children the Bible and Christian doctrine. The local church should be a supplement to the discipleship that is regularly going on in the HOME. The failure of the local church has been a failure to teach parents that they are responsible before God for the discipleship of their children, and to teach them how to do that.
This is a bit of a privileged point of view. You seem to assume that all parents know how to disciple their children. Jen is saying parents need adequate training FROM the church so they can disciple at home. And what about adults without families or spouses? They should be discipled by the church.
@@laurenh19 The context is that many Christian college students don't know even the most basic Bible facts and stories. These are presumably young adults aged 18-25. Jen did not elaborate that parents need training from the church for discipling their children. She didn't mention parents at all. She said that discipleship for those young adult Christian college students belongs in the local church. Am I to assume what she really meant to say was that parents should be helped by the church to disciple their children? Given my church experience, where parents are neither taught to disciple their children nor taught how to do it, I can't make that assumption. Neither do I assume that all parents know how to disciple their children. My first comment said that the local church should expect parents to disciple their children *and* teach them how to do that.
Its actually pretty hilarious to just assume everyone who doesnt agree with your own personal interpretation of the bible is "biblically illiterate" hahaha 😅 especially when diverging from the plain, clear understanding of texts in favor of a progressive interpretation that is easier to digest in secular society 😏
You may be missed the point if that’s what you got from this! She highlighted some pretty foundational issues of the Christian faith (aka Jesus being fully God and fully man) that 40ish% of identifying Christians don’t believe. That’s not an interpretation difference-that’s a gospel difference.
@@laurenh19 no, that's the difference between somebody saying "I am a Christian" and somebody actually being a saved, redeemed, child of God 🤷🏻♂️ I wish more people would consider the sad truth, that Jesus said NARROW IS THE WAY (Matthew 7) and MANY will say "Lord, Lord" and He will say "I never knew you" that's one of the most sobering verses in the NT. With all that said, you can't say "the church is illiterate" because anybody denying the deity of Christ is just infact Not the church 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
@@FierBarca1899 not totally sure- found her through a pastor with a Ph.D in systematic theology. She operates under Matt Chandler’s church who trust her implicitly. And she shows her work as she teaches, so you don’t have to just take her word for it, you can test it yourself and with other resources.
I'm always concerned with surveys..As in how many were surveyed and who and where. Most of us thought we were protestant except.. Ok we are in the Gospel. I am praying to learn truth and it took time. I had to listen 4 x plus reread ? One..I got all the others right. I was brought up in the and am still not totally literature and need to be jn scripture. So I hope your survey on the 4 ? Was misread or something. Those are basic.
Prior to listening I was unfamiliar with Jen. I have subsequently read her doctrial statement and looked for info regarding theological training. In summary: seems her theological world view is "classically reformed" and is self-taught. Her highly developed rhetorical skills with seemingly little self-awareness and lack of epistemic humility are red flags for me. Preston clearly sees the shallowness of her theology but fails to "press" her. Not sure why. The brief converstation about deconstruction is an example...Jen's failure to see the difference between deconstruction, deconversion and reconstruction is telling. Overall - unhelpful conversation.
I can see how not being familiar with her and her work could make this conversation different for someone. She’s got a dry, sarcastic humor which I personally love and relate to, but I can see how that comes off as arrogant when you don’t know that. After doing many of her studies and knowing people who know her on a more personal level, I actually do think she’s humble and self-aware. This conversation alone isn’t a great representation of her and her work if this is all you know about her.
33:58 "A big symptom of the bible literacy crisis is the theological literacy crisis. You could argue that they inform each other." She seems blind to the arrogance in her statement. Her basic litmus test for biblical literacy becomes, if you agree with these doctrines then you know the bible. Shouldn't the argument for biblical literacy relating to these doctrines be: list verses and passages for and against these doctrines? Does this proposal have any space for biblically sound arguments that prevail against established doctrines? Semper Reformanda anyone? Or is your theology pronounced by sinful people always right? Worst case scenario is her doctrines are her hermeneutic for reading the scripture and she is actively suppressing the scripture where it says otherwise from her already made up opinions of what it should say. That's biblical illiteracy.
37:50 Yeah again. This is what you get when doctrine has more importance than scripture. Quoting NT Wright, "Now I discover that some from what I had thought were Protestant quarters are accusing me of something called ‘biblicism’. I’m not sure what that is, exactly. What I am sure of is what I learned forty years ago from Luther and Calvin: that the primary task of a teacher of the church is to search Scripture ever more deeply and to critique all human traditions in the light of that, not to assemble a magisterium on a platform and tell the worried faithful what the tradition says and hence how they are to understand Scripture. To find people in avowedly Protestant colleges taking what is basically a *Catholic* position would be funny if it was not so serious. To find them then accusing me of crypto-Catholicism is worse. To find them using against me the rhetoric that the official church in the 1520s used against Luther- ‘How dare you say something different from what we’ve believed all these centuries’ -again suggests that they have not only no sense of irony, but no sense of history. I want to reply, how dare you propose a different theological method from that of Luther and Calvin, a method of using human tradition to tell you what Scripture said? On this underlying question, I am standing firm with the great Reformers against those who, however Baptist their official theology, are in fact *neo-Catholics* . (Wright, N.T., 2013. Pauline Perspectives: Essays on Paul, 1978-2013, Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press.)
04:30 "Commit a genocide against the Canaanites" is a very poor framing of Joshua's conquest. It is subtly assuming that God commanded Israel to commit a crime (see the word "commit"), thereby subtly suggesting that God gave an evil command. Even though that's not the subject of this episode, it is interesting how easily that rolled off of Preston's tongue. Framing it as a genocide is also exactly how atheists and skeptics use those passages to attack God's goodness. I think an important part of Biblical literacy is to frame all questions and issues in the way the Bible frames them, not in the way God's enemies frame them.
I have longed for a formal program where laypeople could learn this way and improve their Bible literacy. IMO, this is not happening in the local church-nor should it. That's not necessarily the role of the Pastor, and most churches aren't gifted with enough teachers with the credentials/background to instruct in this manner.
So let's create this! Who's in. Let's start an evening school where people can attend and get this type of education. Not to have a degree or to go into ministry (necessarily) but simply because they yearn to know more about God. Jen said to have a big vision. Well, there you go. What you say Preston? Lets build this thing.
It's called Bible Project and its available now for free on their website.
I long for this, too! And I agree the Bible Project and Jen’s studies are both so great and fill a huge need. I wish something like this existed more in the local church, or even that the local church would BE this.
The Bible Project stuff is good-and free-but it's not what I'm searching for. It's a platform for self-learning, no different from podcasts, books, or a ton of other online resources. That's all good - but I am searching for a true interactive classroom-style education where students and teachers can engage, discuss, and study together. I don't learn well from a talking head - not my style - I need the interaction in a class room with group participation, etc.
Excellent and necessary and urgent listening
This was a super helpful and informative conversation. Grateful for you both and the insights you share. Thank you!
This conversation exactly highlights my issues with the local church. I’ve prayed for years about whether my current church is where I should be and have finally started looking for a new church. But I’m realizing that the issue (for me) is how the modern church is structured. We put too much emphasis on Sunday morning preaching that is mostly application and not enough emphasis on discipleship and actually knowing the Bible. I long to find a church family that lives out intellectual study alongside application, and discipleship alongside community.
Also, if you’re not familiar with Jen, just know she’s got a dry sense of humor, so there may be times that she sounds arrogant but she’s actually being sarcastic or joking. 😉
Loved this dialogue! Great interview, Preston!
In addition to a very insightful interview, you alluded to a number of really good resources for further learning. Thanks!
Appreciate the conversation, but I don't agree with the sentiment "our feelings are real but they are not reliable". I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of emotions. I prefer Dr. David Eckman's phrase, "Emotions don't tell me what is true, but what I believe to be true". I recommend his book, Theology of Emotions. Those who pit the intellect against the emotions (or vice versa) wil tend toward astonished annoyance with the limited purchase their arguments find in the populace since they are operating on a skewed anthropology.
I agree we can’t separate intelligence and emotions! I don’t think that’s what Jen means. Just curious--are you a man or woman, and if a woman what has your history in women’s ministry been like? If you’re a man, than you may not have the experience many women do of what she’s describing.
I’m a woman and have loved Jen’s emphasis on using our brains and not just emotions as women. I have consistently disliked most women’s studies and gatherings over the years because of exactly what she describes. I want to be taught about the Bible and access the text intellectually, not only emotionally or application focused.
I wish she would get her statistics from Barna and not a calvinist organization. Augustinian original sin isn't biblical at all.
The irony of Wilkin speaking about Biblical illiteracy…
Context?
37:20 No, Jen, that discipleship function belongs in the FAMILY! The local church should be making it very clear to the adults in the room that fathers and mothers are responsible for teaching their children the Bible and Christian doctrine. The local church should be a supplement to the discipleship that is regularly going on in the HOME. The failure of the local church has been a failure to teach parents that they are responsible before God for the discipleship of their children, and to teach them how to do that.
Well said.
This is a bit of a privileged point of view. You seem to assume that all parents know how to disciple their children. Jen is saying parents need adequate training FROM the church so they can disciple at home. And what about adults without families or spouses? They should be discipled by the church.
@@laurenh19 The context is that many Christian college students don't know even the most basic Bible facts and stories. These are presumably young adults aged 18-25. Jen did not elaborate that parents need training from the church for discipling their children. She didn't mention parents at all. She said that discipleship for those young adult Christian college students belongs in the local church. Am I to assume what she really meant to say was that parents should be helped by the church to disciple their children? Given my church experience, where parents are neither taught to disciple their children nor taught how to do it, I can't make that assumption. Neither do I assume that all parents know how to disciple their children. My first comment said that the local church should expect parents to disciple their children *and* teach them how to do that.
Its actually pretty hilarious to just assume everyone who doesnt agree with your own personal interpretation of the bible is "biblically illiterate" hahaha 😅 especially when diverging from the plain, clear understanding of texts in favor of a progressive interpretation that is easier to digest in secular society 😏
You may be missed the point if that’s what you got from this! She highlighted some pretty foundational issues of the Christian faith (aka Jesus being fully God and fully man) that 40ish% of identifying Christians don’t believe. That’s not an interpretation difference-that’s a gospel difference.
@@laurenh19 no, that's the difference between somebody saying "I am a Christian" and somebody actually being a saved, redeemed, child of God 🤷🏻♂️
I wish more people would consider the sad truth, that Jesus said NARROW IS THE WAY (Matthew 7) and MANY will say "Lord, Lord" and He will say "I never knew you" that's one of the most sobering verses in the NT.
With all that said, you can't say "the church is illiterate" because anybody denying the deity of Christ is just infact Not the church 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Jen is a great teacher and this is a fantastic episode!
What are her credentials?
@@FierBarca1899 not totally sure- found her through a pastor with a Ph.D in systematic theology. She operates under Matt Chandler’s church who trust her implicitly. And she shows her work as she teaches, so you don’t have to just take her word for it, you can test it yourself and with other resources.
Her credentials are being a she-man under the tutelage of race-baiter in chief Matt Slanderer.
I'm always concerned with surveys..As in how many were surveyed and who and where. Most of us thought we were protestant except.. Ok we are in the Gospel. I am praying to learn truth and it took time. I had to listen 4 x plus reread ? One..I got all the others right. I was brought up in the and am still not totally literature and need to be jn scripture. So I hope your survey on the 4 ? Was misread or something. Those are basic.
Prior to listening I was unfamiliar with Jen. I have subsequently read her doctrial statement and looked for info regarding theological training. In summary: seems her theological world view is "classically reformed" and is self-taught. Her highly developed rhetorical skills with seemingly little self-awareness and lack of epistemic humility are red flags for me. Preston clearly sees the shallowness of her theology but fails to "press" her. Not sure why. The brief converstation about deconstruction is an example...Jen's failure to see the difference between deconstruction, deconversion and reconstruction is telling. Overall - unhelpful conversation.
I can see how not being familiar with her and her work could make this conversation different for someone. She’s got a dry, sarcastic humor which I personally love and relate to, but I can see how that comes off as arrogant when you don’t know that. After doing many of her studies and knowing people who know her on a more personal level, I actually do think she’s humble and self-aware. This conversation alone isn’t a great representation of her and her work if this is all you know about her.
33:58 "A big symptom of the bible literacy crisis is the theological literacy crisis. You could argue that they inform each other." She seems blind to the arrogance in her statement. Her basic litmus test for biblical literacy becomes, if you agree with these doctrines then you know the bible. Shouldn't the argument for biblical literacy relating to these doctrines be: list verses and passages for and against these doctrines? Does this proposal have any space for biblically sound arguments that prevail against established doctrines? Semper Reformanda anyone? Or is your theology pronounced by sinful people always right? Worst case scenario is her doctrines are her hermeneutic for reading the scripture and she is actively suppressing the scripture where it says otherwise from her already made up opinions of what it should say. That's biblical illiteracy.
37:50 Yeah again. This is what you get when doctrine has more importance than scripture. Quoting NT Wright, "Now I discover that some from what I had thought were Protestant quarters are accusing me of something called ‘biblicism’. I’m not sure what that is, exactly. What I am sure of is what I learned forty years ago from Luther and Calvin: that the primary task of a teacher of the church is to search Scripture ever more deeply and to critique all human traditions in the light of that, not to assemble a magisterium on a platform and tell the worried faithful what the tradition says and hence how they are to understand Scripture.
To find people in avowedly Protestant colleges taking what is basically a *Catholic* position would be funny if it was not so serious. To find them then accusing me of crypto-Catholicism is worse. To find them using against me the rhetoric that the official church in the 1520s used against Luther- ‘How dare you say something different from what we’ve believed all these centuries’ -again suggests that they have not only no sense of irony, but no sense of history.
I want to reply, how dare you propose a different theological method from that of Luther and Calvin, a method of using human tradition to tell you what Scripture said?
On this underlying question, I am standing firm with the great Reformers against those who, however Baptist their official theology, are in fact *neo-Catholics* . (Wright, N.T., 2013. Pauline Perspectives: Essays on Paul, 1978-2013, Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press.)