Thanks a bunch for the coverage! We're making progress, but more complaints files and petitions signed keeps helping! Unfortunately options are limited for people in the USA, but we just have to work with where the openings are. We're going to get half a dozen governments to own a clear answer on this one way or another, preferably ending it!
It has been 48 hours since they pulled the plug on littlebigplanet's online servers; 10 million levels just wiped off the face of the internet if that isn't a great example of a game "killed" then I don't know what is [Okay still technically playable but they took 10 million creations offline with no warning]
@@TriforceWisdom64 There was a apparently a mod on the LBP servers that caused some serious issue for LBP players. Sony took the servers down in January to try and sort it out but then this weekend announced that the servers would remain 'offline indefinitely' which is seen as code for 'shutdown' permanently'. The games is 10 years old at this point so it is likely that given its age and probably limited remaining playerbase that you are correct that Sony didn't want to foot the bill to fix what they see as redundant software.
As someone who spent a bunch of time in the game, it's nuts that someone who knows how to hack into a server can just take it all away & the publisher can just keep it offline because they don't think it's profitable anymore. This is why legislation about video game preservation needs to be a thing.
Ross Scott is the perfect blend of creative, passionate and slightly insane that you need in somebody who'll take advantage of their platform to actually organise something like this. We're very lucky to have him.
He is legit a godsend. A man that could've taken his Mind of Freeman series and run it into the ground, instead choosing to wait and - at the expense of his own career - to prioritize artistic timing for the delivery and not compromising on the quality of the writing and production. Then, when he opens up to funding from the public after his fans had been begging him to for years, the guy asks for less than $2,000/mo *as his moonshot* which would just cover his living costs so he can focus on his content full-time. Then, after his audience turned up to support him, the guy adheres to every promise made as part of the campaign *TO THIS DAY*. The man is the living embodiment of ethics in gaming and games journalism. He is unbelievably humble, profoundly honest, and one of the best content creators on the platform that legitimately cares about games and their preservation for future generations. There are few people on the internet I will say "deserve" your support. Ross is part of that very, very small group of people.
Absolutely. Most people, me included, would just say "well, nothing will be done so why bother", but just look at how much attention he's been able to direct towards this issue.
Need an example of this in the US? Ticket to Ride: a board game that came to Steam years ago and sold itself exactly as a board game would, issuing expansions and building a loyal and cheerful online community. Last year in 2023, they announced that they would just turn off the servers. Reason: bought out by Embracer Group, who decided it would be much more profitable to kill off the Steam version and open a new version of the game through Marmalade Studios (a place where EA and Hasbro publish their IPs). Interior quality? To hear those who made the jump, yes. That didn't stop Marmalade from charging full price to buy the game again along with full price for any expansion they might decide to offer. The death of ownership. Thank Gods someone is fighting back.
As someone who actively restores old MMO servers and RTS games to playability via disassembling the code and writing private custom servers, I fully and wholeheartedly support stopkillinggames as a movement. It's something we've needed for a very long time now. We've been seeing the impact of old servers and services being shut down, but it's only now becoming real to many people due to how large gaming has become worldwide over the last twenty years.
@@jonathanmette8348 dunno about Shadowbane, but yes for CoH. the biiig fan server for that, Homecoming, landed a licensing agreement with NCSoft a few months ago. though it has been operating for years before that, now that it's unlikely to get hit with the C&D hammer, so folks've been flooding back to it since the agreement became public knowledge.
You guys are the real MvPs. Companies argue we CAN'T maintain so much because of costs yet small passionate communities can and do! And without any support at all from the company that has all the tools to make the process easier.
"This is a rental!" "How long have I rented it for 59.99?" "Some period of time." "A year? Two years? Six months?" "I dunno." Is this acceptable in any other industry?
EULAs are even worse. Imagine buying a car and they give you a document to sign that states: "THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED TO YOU, NOT SOLD. Upon termination of the license for any reason, you must immediately destroy the Product in your possession." Oh, this text is copied from The Crew: Motorfest's EULA, I just removed the words related to "uninstall" and "copies", all the rest is actually there.
The first time I really felt this issue was when Lego Universe shut down. I was playing that game with all my free time for 9 months, and I didn't realize what the shutdown meant till the week it happened. The mods handing out jetpacks, horses, and partying with everyone out of bounds should have tipped me off but I'd never seen this happen before. I still mourn that game however many years later, and seeing Darkflame Lego Universe - a fan project to build a custom server - get shut down recently only added insult to injury.
this is what really twists the knife. Not only can games be shut down remotely, but if you take steps to protect your purchase you'll be potentially sued. It's crazy. "We don't want to run the game, and we don't want anyone else running the game" is an insane policy but super common
Huh? Darkflame Universe hasn't been "shut down", you can download their server software right now. My friends and I have been running the game every week for months. They _were_ planning on hosting public servers only for that to be a no-go, but you can still do just about everything in the game, just not on a global scale. That sucks, but the game's out there now, it's been backed-up, it's not going away again.
Oh no, had no idea darkflame got shut down, that's insanely frustrating. Edit: So apparently they stopped working on it, but they released the code so anyone can run the game with friends, so the game is functional again for people who want it. And amusingly, Ross Scott was mentioned in the comments of the article I found.
Reasons why I look at my New 2DS and physical DS and 3DS cartridges the same way a lunatic survivalist looks at cans of baked beans. Too bad physical will break down some day, but cans of beans also have a shelf life.
Yep, in music and film most notably. There is nothing preventing itunes or prime video from doing the exact same thing, and Sony (Playstation) already did it a couple months ago.
@4nto418 It isn't music. It is software period. Louis Rossman talks about it with respect to editing apps. Licensing is a potential issue with vehicles. Your music example is about the underlying software. Licensing software instead of owning it can affect literally everything that involves software, even doorbells.
Not just games. Too many physical goods have online connectivity for no good (for the user) reason. And they will stop working once you won’t be able to connect to company’s servers. From tractors and cars to NAS boxes that affects more products every year.
Super glad that he had become the face of game preservation! Can't remember which channels (Yongyea or SomeOrdinaryGamers?) but they also used his face as the example of game overship and now this channel!
I commented on one of his videos about looking into Second Wind to get his message further. Dunno if it made any impact in this result but I like to think it did.
The biggest issue here isn’t the server shutdown its the removal of licenses. They didn’t just shutdown the Crew’s servers they also removed the ability for users who had purchased the game to set up their own servers and stripped the game from the libraries of players that had already bought it. Stripping a software license like that, without cause, is unprecedented and undermines far more than just game preservation. If that is ruled as legal it undermines nearly all types of software purchases. It makes using most software more risky for businesses that aren’t tech firms because now if the provider of that software wants to it can pull the plug at any time at will. This move by Ubisoft attacks fundamental architecture of the internet, and I don’t think even they fully realize that.
As Ross explained in his videos, if the EULA states that you are granted a temporary licenses which may be revoked at any time, you are SOL in the US. Legally, that rug-pull has been upheld in court (ProCD Inc v Zeidenberg), so, good luck!
@@MazeFrame That’s not entirely correct. In Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology, which I would argue is closer to what Ubisoft did with the Crew, the EULA was ruled by the Third Circuit to be unenforceable. The case you’re citing is from the Seventh Circuit and the facts of that case are a bit different from this one. Additionally EULAs have to conform to the UCC, something which is in ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, and I’m not convinced that this does, since revoking a contract like this is not typically considered legal. If terms in an EULA do not conform to the UCC that EULA is unenforceable. But I want to reiterate that a specific instance like this is unprecedented. No one has tested this specific type of EULA application in court. I just seriously doubt that it is legal even in the US.
@@MazeFrame I realized my previous comment was a bit vague. In ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg EULAs were held to be enforceable contracts BUT that case did not say that software licenses could be revoked at any time for any reason, and it did say that EULAs are subject to the UCC. The UCC generally does not permit that kind of activity. Additionally in Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology it was ruled that changes to an EULA after the initial signing of the contract were not legally binding, and suddenly revoking a license seems a lot closer to the second case. No one has tested that yet though.
@@nicholasavasthi9879 You should inform Ross of that though, because he needed to do a big research to even find that ProCD case, and it's why his lawyer said that the USA is a lost cause.
@@nicholasavasthi9879 A bit off topic but from the description, it makes me think we need another case showing that forcing signing of a new license by denying access should also be illegal. Things like the recent examples of Roku or Blizzard locking your out of your account/hardware until you agree should absolutely not be legal.
Btw, Ross said he planned to quote “spam myself across the internet”. It would be awesome to see you guys feature him on windbreaker! Admittedly, I am partially saying that because I want to see Ross and Yatz on the same podcast…
The same guy who is essentially the voice of Gordon Freeman due to his excellent series; Freeman's mind, is now the voice of the consumers in this matter, I can't say who better to lead the charge in the battle for the preservation of Video Games. If you're able to subscribe to his channel: Accursed Farms as he posts updates for stop killing games on his community posts.
The phrase "if you don’t own your games, then piracy isn’t stealing" isn't helpful because online-only are almost impossible to pirate. In fact, in this issue, all that phrase does is justify companies making their games online-only because it makes it seem like they NEED to do that to prevent piracy.
Thank you so much for Signal Boosting Ross Scott! I watched a random video on Digital Preservation earlier in the week that led me to him. Hopefully this video will lead more to do the same. This is our chance to make a difference, Don't squander it.
I just don't support triple A companies anymore. They're the ones that are always spitting us in the eye by either releasing games in a sh*t state with day one dlcs at 80 bucks to have statements like this and everything is fine. Not for me. These companies won't see another dyme from me!
The unfortunate thing about that is the people who poured their blood sweat and tears into actually making the game definitely deserve your money. They just happen to be working for a shitty company like Ubisoft or EA who won't let them actually make quality products. Boycotting doesn't really accomplish anything unless EVERYONE stops buying enough to actually impact their bottom lines. For the most part, it's the whales that spend thousands on MTX that sustain these types of behaviors.
If you haven’t subscribed to Ross, DO IT NOW. He is one of the best (and arguably most important) video game RUclipsrs on the platform. Accursed Farms is his channel name
My response to people who say "But you're not buying these games, you're only renting them!" is to ask them _"Then why are they TELLING me that I'm BUYING them, then?"_ It's blatant false advertising, that's what it is. I don't care what bullshit you put in your EULA. If you're charging me US$60 for a game (or let's be real, more than that), how can you call that a "rental price"? If you're only renting the game to me and are going to take it back whenever you feel like, where the FUCK do you get off demanding $70 or more for the privilege?
I came here being a long Ross Scott fan and never have seen a video by yourself, but I love your take. How quickly you go to the deep rooted issues and reasons for things. Immediately subscribed. Ross and the people behind the initiative do know this, but they don't talk about it that much because it's a very complicated philosophical discussion, and they instead focus on the more immediate practical issues. Other commenters stay on the very surface. You instead go far deeper than the people pushing the initiative even go. Hats off to you.
The issue with something being unprecedented is that no one is prepared to deal with it. No company had done it until recently and no laws were set in place for such an event. It’s the Wild West of legality
It's not the first time a game's online functionality was shut off, the difference is this time the entire game required the online functionality so the entire game is now unplayable. Legally speaking that is their right, and this is why people fought against always online DRM systems, the people discussing physical media on this topic are truly tilting because this is not that fight.
@@SherrifOfNottingham Yep, this is why the crew was the perfect game for it, it's not even his favorite game, he just drives around not doing races, it's a unique situation where the game acted like a MMO but was sold as a product instead of a service like WoW or XIV, also people found offline flags in the files but can't enable it thanks to the DRM.
I know the modern take of "if you own it, they couldn't take it away" from the old days, but i don't think thst was due to the physicality of the medium, but rather the technical isolation of the time. Even if you have a physical copy of a single-player game nowadays, I'd wager they could still reduce that game to an inert coaster with a single patch
@Gulyus until game "require a network update to run the program", which I have gotten for some applications and functions outside of games. Just requires a rule in new games to require the equipment is up-to-date to run the game 😓
@@Gulyus Depends on the age of the game - so many games now the physical media they have sold you it seems is nothing but an access key - the game itself must still be downloaded before first run. But the older stuff when the game was actually shipped on the media at whatever state it was in when the media was created should be fine, though it better be really damn old for the game to actually be playable (zero day patches that actually make it work acceptably also have been a normal for a while in many places).
It's because a physical copy is no different from a digital one, you're still just purchasing a license to play the game. The difference is the license you get with physical media is predicated on the physical media not breaking, where the license you get with digital media is that as long as the distribution platform still exists you still have access to the game. I don't buy games from Nintendo because they not only brick their digital storefronts to move people on to their next console, they'll brick the console itself to make it not read cartridges that are too old. So with Nintendo you have both limitations, if the cartridge breaks you have to buy a new one, and if the storefront goes down then you're SOL. People try to champion the Crew going down as a reason for Physical Media to make a comeback, but there's no logic to that, since the game stopped working, physical media or not.
I like how Ross' video is mostly him talking over himself driving in the Crew and Second Wind is also mostly talking over gameplay of driving in the crew - poetry, it rhymes ;)
Australian petition is open. (a type of petition where legally the parliament has to discuss it) Go check out the video its pretty good, and then sign it takes like 5 minutes. Lets fight for our rights people!
"You know kid, for a figment of my imagination, you lack imagination." Best one-liner I've seen in a while that directly addresses the Socratic dialogue. Love it!
So here's another thing about Ross Scott's bit about server shut down. The Crew is the latest in a long line of games that Ross has discussed going black due to server shut down. Most of the other games have been either too small a scope or made under US laws.
Eloquently explained, as always. I've seen a few RUclipsrs and far too many commenters not fully grasping the how's and why's this campaign, and that it's not actually about Ubisoft or The Crew.
The worst part is, it took this long for this issue to reach this level of notoriety. There's been countless games lost forever to people who paid for them, or spent money on them in some way or form, with no way for fans to go back and play them now. Some of course have been kept alive through fan made servers and such, but the majority are gone for good. Obviously this is a bigger issue for the mobile gaming market, but quite a few console and PC games have been lost as well. Particularly if we consider older versions of games that were entirely removed from markets, (such as Overwatch being removed in the change to "Overwatch 2"), or having storefronts shut down entirely, such as with Nintendo closing off their online shop for the 3DS. While it's highly unlikely to happen, just for a moment consider what you'd actually own if Steam, PSN, or Xbox's storefronts shut down entirely and you could no longer download all the games you've purchased over the years.
"for a figment of my imagination, you sure lack imagination" your writing is amazing idk if there is a team or you write you own script but kudos. keep up the amazing work!
Scott making his video into a short along with the long video is such a good idea. I watched the long form video, but the short will be easier to send to people.
I've been a fan of Ross Scott's for over a decade, so I got the memo right from the source. Let me tell you, every couple of days I see some other RUclipsr I follow like RayCevick, MandaloreGaming, Civvie11 (and that's just the ones I can name off the top of my head) spread awareness of Ross's campaign and every time I howl in delight and surprise! Yes, surprise, because no matter how many times it happens I'm still surprised somehow Lmao
Ross has himself said that the US is basically a "lost cause" for this effort, since it has been ruled that EULAs are always legally binding. What a country.
EULAs can be thrown out in court, the problem is in order to take it to court you need a lot of money, all these big companies can just sit there and keep stalling away with endless amounts of money, it's the main reason none of these anti-consumer tactics can ever be challenged in the US
@@SherrifOfNottingham They are unless proven otherwise in court, which often can't be done because of forced arbitration clauses, look it up, it's a doozy. Welcome to common law, you'll own nothing and be happy.
That is absolutely not true. An EULA with legal content is binding, and an EULA with illegal content is non-binding. Just like any other country. There is a perceived higher difficulty (in terms of winning a lawsuit and being able to fund that lawsuit) to prove that a particular EULA should be non-binding in the US vs the EU/UK/etc, but part of that is also due to the EU having stronger consumer-protection laws on the books, so companies are less willing to try sketchy stuff in those countries vs the US.
I'll be honest, I loved what the warhammer mmo and rising thunder did when their games "died". They created a community edition of their games and open sourced it.
Thanks for boosting Ross's campaign. It needs all the help it can get, and seeing second wind take part in this is really awesome! I do find it ironic though, that the sponsor for this video is a game that WILL, without a shadow of a doubt, suffer the very fate this campaign is fighting against. XD
When game companies complain that game prices haven't risen over the years from $60 (aside from 'deluxe editions', DLCs and microtransactions) - well back then you actually bought a game and now they are just selling a 'licence' or 'rental'. They can't have it both ways.
I had my doubts as to whether this fight would take off. But with how hard Ross has been working to make things as easy as possible, and now this. I think we're about to hit turbo speed on this
This is a great use of your platform, man! Those navel-gazing questions you asked yourself in the past few vids, I think this is a really good answer. You have your finger on the pulse, but feel helpless in the face of all this bad news, so when new projects like campaign this come along, you've got everything you need to signal boost it.
As a longtime gamer and Ross Scott fan, it warms my heart so much to see one of my favorite channels bringing this up. It gives me hope that this is going to work.
I really love these videos, they are so concise and describe the issue clearly. The writing is so good and I keep wanting more. There is always one or two sentences that stick with me. Thanks frost for these videos and please keep being awesome.
This is why I avoided Steam for years when it was first becoming popular. I'd bought a physical copy of Skyrim, only to learn after purchase that it still required Steam to play. I was incensed to the point I refused to play it and sold it instead to a friend, to prevent another sale. I've since caved in to Steam reluctantly, but I buy games on GoG instead whenever possible. And I hope we break this DRM deathgrip on games sooner rather than later.
Good. By the way, there are some games on Steam & GOG that are also sold on itch io. Much like the latter you get direct access to game files without needing a launcher or 3rd party, but in addition devs on itch choose how much they take from their sales. (if I type the period between itch & io it counts as a link)
Steam at least claims that they have an end of life plan, which would disable all of Steam's DRM, and allow you to play all the games in your library in offline mode. That's really what we're asking for. For every individual game to have this kind of end of life plan. And of course for them to actually follow through with it.
I really hope this whole campaign goes well, because there's still so much more ground to cover. I recently ran into an issue when a friend decided to boot up Project Cars 2, a racing sim from 2018. I joined in and we had some good fun, but our third friend was unable to. Why? Well because last year, Project cars 1 and 2 were delisted from all storefronts due to licenses expiring. Legally speaking, the publisher can no longer sell the game because they dont have the right to the contents within it. Shortly after the series was considered canceled, and the studio all but dissolved. Theres tons of other games in the same exact spot too. Publishers negotiated licenses with expiration dates, and now they can't even legally sell the game anymore. Its no longer profitable for the companies to renew the licenses, so we the consumer are left with the metaphorical bill. Games are art, and we as a society are letting greedy companies put an expiration date on experiencing it in order to maximize their wallets. To me, its just profoundly anti-human, robbing untold lives of experiences they never knew they could have. Ensuring we keep the games we buy is only the first step for preservation, and I hope this movement can really accomplish something.
I think it's bizarre that the devs could literally just push a patch that disconnects the mandatory server connection, and adds a way to setup a private server or play privately online by having 1 persons console (or PC) act as the host
I appreciate you guys at Second Wind helping bring attention to this! Ross has been working hard on this for a long time, and this opportunity to make gaming better for all of us is important. So again, thank you.
It's not turbocapitalism that made America a world power. It's being a huge, resource rich nation on its own continent, sufficiently separated from where the major destruction of WW1 & 2 was happening that made America come out on top while previous powers were turned into rubble. So, yeah, America can still be a superpower even if it turns it down a notch or two. What keeps things the way they are is that the watchers and rulemakers are basically on the payroll of those they are supposed to watch and rule about.
Capitalism doesn't make the economy. It doesn't create growth. It doesn't build homes or roads or offices or factories. It doesn't create goods and provide services. It isn't the work and it isn't the business. Capitalism is just the part where a bunch of rich people skim money off the top for no benefit to society. Capitalism is the stock market inventing wealth and then demolishing the entire economy because somebody was silly. Capitalism is gatekeeping business so that 90% of people who _want_ to start one themselves can't afford to or fail. Capitalism is taking medicine the government paid to invent and then privatizing it and killing people to buy yachts. Capitalism is wasting food while people go hungry just to maintain its "market value" as high as possible. Capitalism is taking zero responsibility while claiming all the credit.
Capitalism is the free exchange of goods and services. That's why it doesn't live very long. Because the biggest player immediately leverages government to burn the ladder behind them. Capitalism died in the US around 1795. After that it was a governmental crony system.
It was so weird seeing Ross on here. I feel like he lives in his own reality outside of the RUclips sphere, so seeing him acknowledged on another big RUclips channel feels like I'm jumping universes.
imagine you bought a book - took it home, loved it cherished it, planned to share it with your kids when they're old enough - one day someone just walks in to your house, picks the book up and leaves the dust cover. when you confront the person, they say 'Sorry we're discontinuing this book, but you can keep the dust cover. That's essentially what game boxes, and downloaded games sat on people hard drives will become, just the remnants of something you loved. and at the end of the day it just encourages piracy - "this game doesnt work on THE OFFICAL servers...."
And then, bizarrely, the company will take down the unofficial servers. I know it could technically be a violation of copyright law, but if they aren't offering the product, then what are they losing? At that point it's just petty
I bring this up every time because Ross has to bring it up every time, physical copies of games can not save you, the crew is a game you can buy a physical copy of right now, same with say Darkspore. Right now both of those games are completely DEAD, those physical copies are utterly useless. Physical copies of games cannot save you from games being shut down.
Self-hosting tools should be legally required for any game that takes your money, or at the very least they should be required to be available in the event that the servers shut down.
I am so glad you're covering this. It's been tough trying to get awareness. Some people even started arguing that this movement will hurt indies... like... how many indies have Live Service games that they have killed tho..
It's not really about having to have other governments do this. Just like how Australia got a steam refunds despite that never being mandated in America. So if a company wants to sell a game in France, they'll have to have an end-of-life plan So that way even non-french people can benefit from it
Yeah, that's the goal, basically- getting at least one large market to rule on the side of gamers, so that publishers will either have to do the same for everyone else, or go to the expense of two entirely different versions. (It's highly unlikely they'd just restrict sales for that market, since they love high sales numbers.)
To my mind, the solution seems pretty simple. It only takes one law: If you shut down a game's servers so that a portion of the game is no longer available, you must make a self-hostable server implementation available for free to the community.
Then comes the hard part: Getting a government to implement that law, when game publishers have way more money (and therefore more influence) than we do.
Functionally unenforceable, unfortunately; creating an implementation for the public to use is actually no small feat (even before you consider the potential use of licensed or proprietary tools in the server operation that you legally can't distribute this way), so if someone violates this law there isn't necessarily a legal remedy that exists, let alone the difficulty of proving that a company was intentionally stalling or pretending it was impossible vs it actually just being very difficult. What you could do, though, is say that for any purchase of this type, you are legally obligated to refund everyone if you close quickly. Suppose that the refund amount shrinks by 1-3% each month, so that it's financially plausible to actually shutter support for things after a few years...with the crucial caveat that the time tracking is per transaction. You shutter something like WoW? People's subscriptions from 10 years ago don't need to be refunded, but their ones from this year sure do...as do all their recent microtransactions. Give an exception to this for anything that has permanence, such as the availability of third party servers, and suddenly it's financially helpful to build a retirement plan for the game into the design from the ground up. You'd have to be very careful about how you define "permanent" (memories and experiences don't count, subscriptions don't get exempted just because they come with lasting rewards, etc), but I think it's a much more plausible direction that's in line with existing legal structures. Probably also need to legislate that "if you've abandoned it, you can't sue other people for refurbishing it" too, though. But we should do that anyway, hoarding unused licenses is a plague.
@@SparkSovereign The GDPR (EU) mandates data be provided in a form readable to the person it belongs to. No reason not to enforce the same for software. Why do single player games even need server parts to begin with? Not the customers fault the seller made dumb decisions! In the not too distant past (Minecraft, 2011), there was just your computer, and if you wanted to play with someone else, they had their computer, you clicked a button and your computer served the multiplayer to the second guy! "Server" does not mean "Magic complicated sci-fi device", it means "another computer"
@@MazeFrame I have done a lot of CS, I am well aware that servers are not magic. I'm also aware that while you can make simple, portable server hosting programs, you can also end up with labyrinthine stuff that's tightly coupled to the specific hardware it's running on, relies on databases filled with confidential information, etc. Giant AAA games are more likely to fall into the latter category, unless they're very strongly encouraged to avoid such entanglements in the design phase. (That said there's plenty of stuff that would be trivial to release, but don't expect that to be feasible for something like Destiny.)
the legal dilemma from legislating this also includes the fact that online games require active upkeep. it costs money to keep servers active, a cost that increases with inflation, but with a fixed initial profit, making it more unprofitable in the long run. Common Law systems are extremely hesitant to enforce unprofitable actions or even just any actions. It's why you don't see many positive injunctions forcing people to do something, because that borders on legal slavery.
Thank you for accurately portraying the campaign and what Ross Scott tries to accomplish. In his effort to spread the word and get more eyes on it, he's unfortunately gotten 'help' from people who completely misrepresent the whole thing and add their own messages to it, that just hurt more than help, really. Like the "piracy isn't stealing" mentality or "vote with your wallet" crap. Neither of which will actually work for AAA game preservation.
Consumers are not free from guilt here either. Despite getting burned multiple times, I still see so many preordering games that nobody has played yet, only to predictably find a substandard experience.
Here's a good question, are the people who preorder the same as the people who complain? There's another really good Cold Take video on the Escapist about why voting with your wallet can feel like a losing battle
Unfortunately, that's the sad truth.DTheTheThisThis These practices exist because there are enough people who support them. There are enough people who complain every time and then buy anyway and there are people who simply don't care.
The US often looks at what works in other countries, declares it to be communism or socialism and doubles down on the bullshit they're already doing, especially with consumer and employee protection laws. Sincerely Someone who has worked in the US for two years.
"A free market is not a lawless market, and a lawless market is not a free market." - Adam Smith, inventor of Economics and generally considered the father of Capitalism. Just like how a lawless society is a dictatorship for whoever is strongest at that particular moment, a lawless market is a dictatorship for whichever entity is richest at that moment. American "Capitalism" is so eroded from what the original design was, mostly because people hear "free market" and think "lawless market", "I can do whatever I want without restriction", etc. Freedom can only be upheld by laws though. Also, side note, for a nation that claims to be all about free markets and Capitalism, they sure do have some weird heavily socialistic markets.
Ehh, Disagree. Right now our society has a bunch of powerful warlords that say and do whatever they want and there's not much we can do about it. In an anarchic society, you could at least tell the warlords to fuck off and fight back as a community.
Thank you for covering this! There have been a lot of bad actors crying 'but no-one plays The Crew anymore anyway' and more innocent souls shrugging their shoulders saying 'well if it's a live service game I can see how sad it is to lose that community'. Sure there are people for whom it's a community, but that's not the problem at hand. The problem is rendering a game unplayable with the excuse of live service. That the game could work perfectly well without a server if it wasn't required to activate the game, if that sounds familiar it's because it's internet connection DRM renamed and it's being revoked not becauseyou don't own the game but because you bought the game and Ubisoft reckon you should just buy another game, an inferior newer game, that costs more. Well I still want to drive across the map I paid, less than 2 years ago, to drive across. The extent of the 'live service' was occasionally a blip would appear on your map and it was another player passing by, or even more rarely, a player that has nothing better to do that stalk you for half an hour. It's not needed. It was never needed.
The best part of this is, as Ross has explained, it won't even be difficult for companies to offer the server software when the game shuts down or patch always online games to be playable, as long as they plan to do it from the start. All we have to do is give them incentive.
When I saw Ross Scott's video, I immediately thought of Frost. I'm so happy that you've taken up the call and brought attention to it. I wish there was more I could do, but alas, I live in America and there's not a lot we can do about it. Here's hoping the French and Aussies can carry us.
Stop Killing Games is a important campaign for sure. Also I can speak for the sponsor, owned it since launch great game especially if you're an old school Tactical shooter fan.
I like the B-roll footage of you driving sensibly and mildly fast in a Dodge Viper. I have The Crew 2, and i spend most of my time avoiding all the 'hip, street talking' people telling me to "trick my whip" and do all sorts of racing, and just use it as a cross-country American road trip simulator 😀
I'm rooting for Ross and all this so hard. There's not much I can realistically do myself (got no money, and I never bought The Crew), but I am cheering.
WoW was the one that got me interested in this whole issue 14 years ago with the release of cataclysm. Every expansion up to that point had been offered with a "buy it if you want it, don't buy it don't interact with the new stuff" approach. Fine the choice was still on the consumer. Then cataclysm came out and the three games I had purchased up to that point were effectively deleted against my will. Sure as a consumer I had the right to just walk away. I didn't have to buy the expansion and I didn't have to keep paying the monthly subscription (which I didn't). Still the three $60 games and 6 years of monthly subscriptions (over a grand of money) were basically gone. Sure my characters and a lot of my gear were still there but they fundamentally overhauled so many systems in the game it was practically like a new game. Even worse for some of my friends that played the update increased the minimum system requirements so they couldn't even install the new game to replace the old one, the game they were playing was just 100% gone. In the end the games I had purchased had been taken back and replaced with a new game I didn't want, and I didn't have a say in the matter. Can you imagine if the car dealership, 6 years after you bought your car, just showed up to your house one night and replaced your truck with a car without your consent? Even if the car was 'of equal market value' would that be acceptable?
I would like to add that while precedent in laws is good and makes it easier for others to pass similar laws in a "first one in the pool" type of way, it's also great because others can look at how it was implemented and tweak their own laws to better suit the desired outcome or close any loopholes.
So happy to see Ross' campaign start to make waves. Everyone in this multi-billion dollar industry wants the same thing: an answer. We don't know right now if "updating" software into unplayable states without end users' consent is allowed under most countries' laws. Most people are hoping someone with a gavel will conclude that it isn't. But at the very least we ALL want to know for sure.
Civil Law means every single judge gets to unilaterally rule on a matter as they all see fit. If a judge doesn't think much of self defense and always overestimates how easily you can flee, you will lose pretty much every self-defense case before that judge. If you get a sympathetic judge, you can take self defense to some silly extremes and still get off. Meanwhile in Common Law, it's all built upon the idea that all courts should rule the same cases the same way. The limits of what is and is not self defense is less what a judge thinks it should be, it's based on how well you can argue your case resembles past cases.
Thanks a bunch for the coverage! We're making progress, but more complaints files and petitions signed keeps helping! Unfortunately options are limited for people in the USA, but we just have to work with where the openings are. We're going to get half a dozen governments to own a clear answer on this one way or another, preferably ending it!
Pin this comment Second Wind.
It has been 48 hours since they pulled the plug on littlebigplanet's online servers; 10 million levels just wiped off the face of the internet
if that isn't a great example of a game "killed" then I don't know what is
[Okay still technically playable but they took 10 million creations offline with no warning]
I could be mistaken, but I read that hackers shut down the servers and Sony just didn't foot the bill to fix them.
No. It's only your purchase being invalidated. This does not happen in any other industry.
My biggest fear in this life is that happening to Apex Legends and losing all of my stuff and it sucks because it's really an inevitability.
@@TriforceWisdom64 There was a apparently a mod on the LBP servers that caused some serious issue for LBP players. Sony took the servers down in January to try and sort it out but then this weekend announced that the servers would remain 'offline indefinitely' which is seen as code for 'shutdown' permanently'.
The games is 10 years old at this point so it is likely that given its age and probably limited remaining playerbase that you are correct that Sony didn't want to foot the bill to fix what they see as redundant software.
As someone who spent a bunch of time in the game, it's nuts that someone who knows how to hack into a server can just take it all away & the publisher can just keep it offline because they don't think it's profitable anymore. This is why legislation about video game preservation needs to be a thing.
Ross Scott is the perfect blend of creative, passionate and slightly insane that you need in somebody who'll take advantage of their platform to actually organise something like this. We're very lucky to have him.
He is legit a godsend. A man that could've taken his Mind of Freeman series and run it into the ground, instead choosing to wait and - at the expense of his own career - to prioritize artistic timing for the delivery and not compromising on the quality of the writing and production. Then, when he opens up to funding from the public after his fans had been begging him to for years, the guy asks for less than $2,000/mo *as his moonshot* which would just cover his living costs so he can focus on his content full-time. Then, after his audience turned up to support him, the guy adheres to every promise made as part of the campaign *TO THIS DAY*. The man is the living embodiment of ethics in gaming and games journalism.
He is unbelievably humble, profoundly honest, and one of the best content creators on the platform that legitimately cares about games and their preservation for future generations. There are few people on the internet I will say "deserve" your support. Ross is part of that very, very small group of people.
Absolutely. Most people, me included, would just say "well, nothing will be done so why bother", but just look at how much attention he's been able to direct towards this issue.
Need an example of this in the US? Ticket to Ride: a board game that came to Steam years ago and sold itself exactly as a board game would, issuing expansions and building a loyal and cheerful online community.
Last year in 2023, they announced that they would just turn off the servers. Reason: bought out by Embracer Group, who decided it would be much more profitable to kill off the Steam version and open a new version of the game through Marmalade Studios (a place where EA and Hasbro publish their IPs). Interior quality? To hear those who made the jump, yes. That didn't stop Marmalade from charging full price to buy the game again along with full price for any expansion they might decide to offer.
The death of ownership. Thank Gods someone is fighting back.
As someone who actively restores old MMO servers and RTS games to playability via disassembling the code and writing private custom servers, I fully and wholeheartedly support stopkillinggames as a movement. It's something we've needed for a very long time now. We've been seeing the impact of old servers and services being shut down, but it's only now becoming real to many people due to how large gaming has become worldwide over the last twenty years.
Do you know if there are servers for City of Heroes or Shadowbane?
@@jonathanmette8348 dunno about Shadowbane, but yes for CoH. the biiig fan server for that, Homecoming, landed a licensing agreement with NCSoft a few months ago. though it has been operating for years before that, now that it's unlikely to get hit with the C&D hammer, so folks've been flooding back to it since the agreement became public knowledge.
You guys are the real MvPs. Companies argue we CAN'T maintain so much because of costs yet small passionate communities can and do! And without any support at all from the company that has all the tools to make the process easier.
@@jonathanmette8348 for COH there are several servers. Look up rebirth and homecoming servers
@@jonathanmette8348I do know there's a City of Heroes server, it's called Homecoming
"This is a rental!"
"How long have I rented it for 59.99?"
"Some period of time."
"A year? Two years? Six months?"
"I dunno."
Is this acceptable in any other industry?
Insane practices from the software world would INSTANTLY lead to riots and burning headquarters if applied to hardware, yet here we are!
EULAs are even worse. Imagine buying a car and they give you a document to sign that states:
"THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED TO YOU, NOT SOLD. Upon termination of the license for any reason, you must immediately destroy the Product in your possession."
Oh, this text is copied from The Crew: Motorfest's EULA, I just removed the words related to "uninstall" and "copies", all the rest is actually there.
I can name one, Rental properties
@@brycejohansen7114 rental properties have specific contracts for specific time frames agreed on beforehand any money changes hands.
It's only allowed because in the mind of the average consumer, EULAs establish some rule of law. When in reality, they're meaningless.
I love how this single campaign for games preservation has united practically all of RUclips under it. Cheers for signal boosting this, mate.
@@Chuckus words are hard :
REVOLUTION!
@@Chuckusa synonym to spreading news
The first time I really felt this issue was when Lego Universe shut down. I was playing that game with all my free time for 9 months, and I didn't realize what the shutdown meant till the week it happened.
The mods handing out jetpacks, horses, and partying with everyone out of bounds should have tipped me off but I'd never seen this happen before.
I still mourn that game however many years later, and seeing Darkflame Lego Universe - a fan project to build a custom server - get shut down recently only added insult to injury.
this is what really twists the knife. Not only can games be shut down remotely, but if you take steps to protect your purchase you'll be potentially sued. It's crazy. "We don't want to run the game, and we don't want anyone else running the game" is an insane policy but super common
@@squeemlives well of course, if you could play old good game you might not want to buy new, mediocre exploitative game!
Dude I remembered Lego universe too, I beta tested it and made suggestions on their forums when it was in development. Perfect example.
Huh? Darkflame Universe hasn't been "shut down", you can download their server software right now. My friends and I have been running the game every week for months.
They _were_ planning on hosting public servers only for that to be a no-go, but you can still do just about everything in the game, just not on a global scale. That sucks, but the game's out there now, it's been backed-up, it's not going away again.
Oh no, had no idea darkflame got shut down, that's insanely frustrating.
Edit: So apparently they stopped working on it, but they released the code so anyone can run the game with friends, so the game is functional again for people who want it. And amusingly, Ross Scott was mentioned in the comments of the article I found.
Reasons why I look at my New 2DS and physical DS and 3DS cartridges the same way a lunatic survivalist looks at cans of baked beans. Too bad physical will break down some day, but cans of beans also have a shelf life.
Meanwhile Nintendo games still sell for 90% of their original price, if not more than the original price.
Yo ho ho
Thank god for hshop for archiving the ROMs
Yeah, my 3DS is, for all intents and purposes, bricked, on account of my not having physical copies of most of the games I played on that system.
@@tonysladky8925 mod it to play roms.
Rather a game stop working from the passage of time than from a corporation's greed.
"For a figment of my imagination you sure lack imagination" - I'm just gonna steal that to use in D&D next time I save against charm or illusion
Yup that line was smooth 👍
Exactly, going to use it as a line in one my games.
While Ross is laser-focused on games, the important thing is that this directive would set precedent in other categories.
Yep, in music and film most notably. There is nothing preventing itunes or prime video from doing the exact same thing, and Sony (Playstation) already did it a couple months ago.
You say that as though games aren't important. They are an industry larger than books, movies, and music COMBINED.
@4nto418 It isn't music. It is software period. Louis Rossman talks about it with respect to editing apps. Licensing is a potential issue with vehicles. Your music example is about the underlying software. Licensing software instead of owning it can affect literally everything that involves software, even doorbells.
I hope this makes waves like that.
Not just games. Too many physical goods have online connectivity for no good (for the user) reason. And they will stop working once you won’t be able to connect to company’s servers. From tractors and cars to NAS boxes that affects more products every year.
Let's go Ross Scott!
I'm so glad that people are FINALLY listening to him!
He's far and away my favorite content creator online!
ROSS ROSS ROSS ROSS ROSS ROSS ROSS ROSS
Super glad that he had become the face of game preservation! Can't remember which channels (Yongyea or SomeOrdinaryGamers?) but they also used his face as the example of game overship and now this channel!
I commented on one of his videos about looking into Second Wind to get his message further. Dunno if it made any impact in this result but I like to think it did.
The One Free Man!
The biggest issue here isn’t the server shutdown its the removal of licenses. They didn’t just shutdown the Crew’s servers they also removed the ability for users who had purchased the game to set up their own servers and stripped the game from the libraries of players that had already bought it. Stripping a software license like that, without cause, is unprecedented and undermines far more than just game preservation. If that is ruled as legal it undermines nearly all types of software purchases. It makes using most software more risky for businesses that aren’t tech firms because now if the provider of that software wants to it can pull the plug at any time at will. This move by Ubisoft attacks fundamental architecture of the internet, and I don’t think even they fully realize that.
As Ross explained in his videos, if the EULA states that you are granted a temporary licenses which may be revoked at any time, you are SOL in the US. Legally, that rug-pull has been upheld in court (ProCD Inc v Zeidenberg), so, good luck!
@@MazeFrame That’s not entirely correct. In Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology, which I would argue is closer to what Ubisoft did with the Crew, the EULA was ruled by the Third Circuit to be unenforceable. The case you’re citing is from the Seventh Circuit and the facts of that case are a bit different from this one. Additionally EULAs have to conform to the UCC, something which is in ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, and I’m not convinced that this does, since revoking a contract like this is not typically considered legal. If terms in an EULA do not conform to the UCC that EULA is unenforceable. But I want to reiterate that a specific instance like this is unprecedented. No one has tested this specific type of EULA application in court. I just seriously doubt that it is legal even in the US.
@@MazeFrame I realized my previous comment was a bit vague. In ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg EULAs were held to be enforceable contracts BUT that case did not say that software licenses could be revoked at any time for any reason, and it did say that EULAs are subject to the UCC. The UCC generally does not permit that kind of activity. Additionally in Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology it was ruled that changes to an EULA after the initial signing of the contract were not legally binding, and suddenly revoking a license seems a lot closer to the second case. No one has tested that yet though.
@@nicholasavasthi9879 You should inform Ross of that though, because he needed to do a big research to even find that ProCD case, and it's why his lawyer said that the USA is a lost cause.
@@nicholasavasthi9879 A bit off topic but from the description, it makes me think we need another case showing that forcing signing of a new license by denying access should also be illegal. Things like the recent examples of Roku or Blizzard locking your out of your account/hardware until you agree should absolutely not be legal.
Btw, Ross said he planned to quote “spam myself across the internet”. It would be awesome to see you guys feature him on windbreaker!
Admittedly, I am partially saying that because I want to see Ross and Yatz on the same podcast…
Yes
Imagine thebunironical galaxy brain takes on that podcast
No link in description to Ross or stop killing games
Fixed!
The same guy who is essentially the voice of Gordon Freeman due to his excellent series; Freeman's mind, is now the voice of the consumers in this matter, I can't say who better to lead the charge in the battle for the preservation of Video Games. If you're able to subscribe to his channel: Accursed Farms as he posts updates for stop killing games on his community posts.
Freemans mind will always be goated
@@ReynardCalcifiusit is sad that his other content isn’t as popular as freeman’s mind though.
"The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world"
His voice reminds me of Keith David
The phrase "if you don’t own your games, then piracy isn’t stealing" isn't helpful because online-only are almost impossible to pirate.
In fact, in this issue, all that phrase does is justify companies making their games online-only because it makes it seem like they NEED to do that to prevent piracy.
Ross even touches on this in his video
Calls it both shortsighted and missing the point of discussion if my memory serves
Thank you so much for Signal Boosting Ross Scott!
I watched a random video on Digital Preservation earlier in the week that led me to him.
Hopefully this video will lead more to do the same.
This is our chance to make a difference, Don't squander it.
I just don't support triple A companies anymore. They're the ones that are always spitting us in the eye by either releasing games in a sh*t state with day one dlcs at 80 bucks to have statements like this and everything is fine. Not for me. These companies won't see another dyme from me!
Great! More should think like you!
The unfortunate thing about that is the people who poured their blood sweat and tears into actually making the game definitely deserve your money. They just happen to be working for a shitty company like Ubisoft or EA who won't let them actually make quality products.
Boycotting doesn't really accomplish anything unless EVERYONE stops buying enough to actually impact their bottom lines. For the most part, it's the whales that spend thousands on MTX that sustain these types of behaviors.
If you haven’t subscribed to Ross, DO IT NOW. He is one of the best (and arguably most important) video game RUclipsrs on the platform.
Accursed Farms is his channel name
Thank god for Ross. I cant help but remember Totalbiscuit at a time like this and feel sad as you know he would have jumped on this
I love that a good chunk of this video is explaining to Americans that, yes, there are indeed other countries in the world than America.
My response to people who say "But you're not buying these games, you're only renting them!" is to ask them _"Then why are they TELLING me that I'm BUYING them, then?"_ It's blatant false advertising, that's what it is. I don't care what bullshit you put in your EULA. If you're charging me US$60 for a game (or let's be real, more than that), how can you call that a "rental price"? If you're only renting the game to me and are going to take it back whenever you feel like, where the FUCK do you get off demanding $70 or more for the privilege?
I came here being a long Ross Scott fan and never have seen a video by yourself, but I love your take. How quickly you go to the deep rooted issues and reasons for things. Immediately subscribed. Ross and the people behind the initiative do know this, but they don't talk about it that much because it's a very complicated philosophical discussion, and they instead focus on the more immediate practical issues. Other commenters stay on the very surface. You instead go far deeper than the people pushing the initiative even go. Hats off to you.
You guys forgot the link.
For those looking the channel is called "Accursed Farms."
You will find all you need there.
www.youtube.com/@Accursed_Farms
The issue with something being unprecedented is that no one is prepared to deal with it. No company had done it until recently and no laws were set in place for such an event. It’s the Wild West of legality
It's not the first time a game's online functionality was shut off, the difference is this time the entire game required the online functionality so the entire game is now unplayable.
Legally speaking that is their right, and this is why people fought against always online DRM systems, the people discussing physical media on this topic are truly tilting because this is not that fight.
@@SherrifOfNottingham they essentially deleted the game
@@SherrifOfNottingham Yep, this is why the crew was the perfect game for it, it's not even his favorite game, he just drives around not doing races, it's a unique situation where the game acted like a MMO but was sold as a product instead of a service like WoW or XIV, also people found offline flags in the files but can't enable it thanks to the DRM.
6:22 use your blinker you maniac!
I know the modern take of "if you own it, they couldn't take it away" from the old days, but i don't think thst was due to the physicality of the medium, but rather the technical isolation of the time. Even if you have a physical copy of a single-player game nowadays, I'd wager they could still reduce that game to an inert coaster with a single patch
If you uninstall it and put the disc in while on offline mode it should, theoretically, work.
i'm surprised nintendo haven't done that yet
@Gulyus until game "require a network update to run the program", which I have gotten for some applications and functions outside of games. Just requires a rule in new games to require the equipment is up-to-date to run the game 😓
@@Gulyus Depends on the age of the game - so many games now the physical media they have sold you it seems is nothing but an access key - the game itself must still be downloaded before first run. But the older stuff when the game was actually shipped on the media at whatever state it was in when the media was created should be fine, though it better be really damn old for the game to actually be playable (zero day patches that actually make it work acceptably also have been a normal for a while in many places).
It's because a physical copy is no different from a digital one, you're still just purchasing a license to play the game. The difference is the license you get with physical media is predicated on the physical media not breaking, where the license you get with digital media is that as long as the distribution platform still exists you still have access to the game.
I don't buy games from Nintendo because they not only brick their digital storefronts to move people on to their next console, they'll brick the console itself to make it not read cartridges that are too old. So with Nintendo you have both limitations, if the cartridge breaks you have to buy a new one, and if the storefront goes down then you're SOL.
People try to champion the Crew going down as a reason for Physical Media to make a comeback, but there's no logic to that, since the game stopped working, physical media or not.
I like how Ross' video is mostly him talking over himself driving in the Crew and Second Wind is also mostly talking over gameplay of driving in the crew - poetry, it rhymes ;)
Australian petition is open. (a type of petition where legally the parliament has to discuss it) Go check out the video its pretty good, and then sign it takes like 5 minutes. Lets fight for our rights people!
Thanks mate. Didn't realise we had one up yet!
Signed
"You know kid, for a figment of my imagination, you lack imagination."
Best one-liner I've seen in a while that directly addresses the Socratic dialogue. Love it!
So here's another thing about Ross Scott's bit about server shut down. The Crew is the latest in a long line of games that Ross has discussed going black due to server shut down. Most of the other games have been either too small a scope or made under US laws.
Eloquently explained, as always. I've seen a few RUclipsrs and far too many commenters not fully grasping the how's and why's this campaign, and that it's not actually about Ubisoft or The Crew.
The worst part is, it took this long for this issue to reach this level of notoriety. There's been countless games lost forever to people who paid for them, or spent money on them in some way or form, with no way for fans to go back and play them now. Some of course have been kept alive through fan made servers and such, but the majority are gone for good.
Obviously this is a bigger issue for the mobile gaming market, but quite a few console and PC games have been lost as well. Particularly if we consider older versions of games that were entirely removed from markets, (such as Overwatch being removed in the change to "Overwatch 2"), or having storefronts shut down entirely, such as with Nintendo closing off their online shop for the 3DS.
While it's highly unlikely to happen, just for a moment consider what you'd actually own if Steam, PSN, or Xbox's storefronts shut down entirely and you could no longer download all the games you've purchased over the years.
It warms my heart to see multiple channels I subscribe to all pitch in and help give this traction. This is beautiful solidarity.
Somehow your best video? I just feel so uplifted
"for a figment of my imagination, you sure lack imagination"
your writing is amazing idk if there is a team or you write you own script but kudos.
keep up the amazing work!
Scott making his video into a short along with the long video is such a good idea. I watched the long form video, but the short will be easier to send to people.
Im so happy to see so many uplifting ross' voice. I have been watching him for years
I've been a fan of Ross Scott's for over a decade, so I got the memo right from the source. Let me tell you, every couple of days I see some other RUclipsr I follow like RayCevick, MandaloreGaming, Civvie11 (and that's just the ones I can name off the top of my head) spread awareness of Ross's campaign and every time I howl in delight and surprise! Yes, surprise, because no matter how many times it happens I'm still surprised somehow Lmao
I'm glad you guys picked up this story. I hope other channels will signal boost Ross's campaign.
Ross has himself said that the US is basically a "lost cause" for this effort, since it has been ruled that EULAs are always legally binding. What a country.
EULA are not legally binding though?
But if you make the laws that eulas also have tr include thennit will work going forward, just not in any existing games.
EULAs can be thrown out in court, the problem is in order to take it to court you need a lot of money, all these big companies can just sit there and keep stalling away with endless amounts of money, it's the main reason none of these anti-consumer tactics can ever be challenged in the US
@@SherrifOfNottingham They are unless proven otherwise in court, which often can't be done because of forced arbitration clauses, look it up, it's a doozy. Welcome to common law, you'll own nothing and be happy.
That is absolutely not true. An EULA with legal content is binding, and an EULA with illegal content is non-binding. Just like any other country. There is a perceived higher difficulty (in terms of winning a lawsuit and being able to fund that lawsuit) to prove that a particular EULA should be non-binding in the US vs the EU/UK/etc, but part of that is also due to the EU having stronger consumer-protection laws on the books, so companies are less willing to try sketchy stuff in those countries vs the US.
We’re gaining speed boys!!!! Thank you second wind! Long live Ross Scott!
I'll be honest, I loved what the warhammer mmo and rising thunder did when their games "died". They created a community edition of their games and open sourced it.
Thanks for boosting Ross's campaign. It needs all the help it can get, and seeing second wind take part in this is really awesome!
I do find it ironic though, that the sponsor for this video is a game that WILL, without a shadow of a doubt, suffer the very fate this campaign is fighting against. XD
When game companies complain that game prices haven't risen over the years from $60 (aside from 'deluxe editions', DLCs and microtransactions) - well back then you actually bought a game and now they are just selling a 'licence' or 'rental'. They can't have it both ways.
I had my doubts as to whether this fight would take off. But with how hard Ross has been working to make things as easy as possible, and now this. I think we're about to hit turbo speed on this
This is a great use of your platform, man! Those navel-gazing questions you asked yourself in the past few vids, I think this is a really good answer. You have your finger on the pulse, but feel helpless in the face of all this bad news, so when new projects like campaign this come along, you've got everything you need to signal boost it.
Years ago when I first started watching Ross' game death segments I never would've imagined how big this would get.
As a longtime gamer and Ross Scott fan, it warms my heart so much to see one of my favorite channels bringing this up. It gives me hope that this is going to work.
It's nice to see Ross's campaign gaining speed.
I really love these videos, they are so concise and describe the issue clearly. The writing is so good and I keep wanting more. There is always one or two sentences that stick with me. Thanks frost for these videos and please keep being awesome.
The noir theme is particularly fitting this time
This is why I avoided Steam for years when it was first becoming popular.
I'd bought a physical copy of Skyrim, only to learn after purchase that it still required Steam to play. I was incensed to the point I refused to play it and sold it instead to a friend, to prevent another sale.
I've since caved in to Steam reluctantly, but I buy games on GoG instead whenever possible. And I hope we break this DRM deathgrip on games sooner rather than later.
Good. By the way, there are some games on Steam & GOG that are also sold on itch io. Much like the latter you get direct access to game files without needing a launcher or 3rd party, but in addition devs on itch choose how much they take from their sales.
(if I type the period between itch & io it counts as a link)
Steam at least claims that they have an end of life plan, which would disable all of Steam's DRM, and allow you to play all the games in your library in offline mode.
That's really what we're asking for. For every individual game to have this kind of end of life plan. And of course for them to actually follow through with it.
RUclips doesn't like it when I mention Itch (ends in .io) apparently. Stupid filters
Everyone, follow Freeman!
Great video putting a spotlight on issues in the industry and the man (Ross Scott) pushing for change.
I really hope this whole campaign goes well, because there's still so much more ground to cover.
I recently ran into an issue when a friend decided to boot up Project Cars 2, a racing sim from 2018. I joined in and we had some good fun, but our third friend was unable to. Why?
Well because last year, Project cars 1 and 2 were delisted from all storefronts due to licenses expiring. Legally speaking, the publisher can no longer sell the game because they dont have the right to the contents within it. Shortly after the series was considered canceled, and the studio all but dissolved.
Theres tons of other games in the same exact spot too. Publishers negotiated licenses with expiration dates, and now they can't even legally sell the game anymore.
Its no longer profitable for the companies to renew the licenses, so we the consumer are left with the metaphorical bill.
Games are art, and we as a society are letting greedy companies put an expiration date on experiencing it in order to maximize their wallets.
To me, its just profoundly anti-human, robbing untold lives of experiences they never knew they could have.
Ensuring we keep the games we buy is only the first step for preservation, and I hope this movement can really accomplish something.
I think it's bizarre that the devs could literally just push a patch that disconnects the mandatory server connection, and adds a way to setup a private server or play privately online by having 1 persons console (or PC) act as the host
Ohhhh, so THATS why he chose The Crew of all things; it’s like a legal judo move.
He also called the closure in a video of his years prior.
I appreciate you guys at Second Wind helping bring attention to this! Ross has been working hard on this for a long time, and this opportunity to make gaming better for all of us is important. So again, thank you.
Ross will be proud of this
I never played Little Big Planet but the amount of creativity that just had the kill-switch flipped on it is depressing. RIP
I'm glad this kind of thing is being talked about more. It's a deep concern.
Anyway, I'm just sacrificing a comment to the algorithm gods
Definitely glad to see this gaining more traction within the community!
Oh yeah! Followed Ross for 5 years now, its so good to see other people from the industry back him up
It's not turbocapitalism that made America a world power. It's being a huge, resource rich nation on its own continent, sufficiently separated from where the major destruction of WW1 & 2 was happening that made America come out on top while previous powers were turned into rubble.
So, yeah, America can still be a superpower even if it turns it down a notch or two. What keeps things the way they are is that the watchers and rulemakers are basically on the payroll of those they are supposed to watch and rule about.
Exactly.
Capitalism doesn't make the economy. It doesn't create growth. It doesn't build homes or roads or offices or factories. It doesn't create goods and provide services. It isn't the work and it isn't the business.
Capitalism is just the part where a bunch of rich people skim money off the top for no benefit to society.
Capitalism is the stock market inventing wealth and then demolishing the entire economy because somebody was silly.
Capitalism is gatekeeping business so that 90% of people who _want_ to start one themselves can't afford to or fail.
Capitalism is taking medicine the government paid to invent and then privatizing it and killing people to buy yachts.
Capitalism is wasting food while people go hungry just to maintain its "market value" as high as possible.
Capitalism is taking zero responsibility while claiming all the credit.
@@shingshongshamalama Absolutely right, got nothing to add other than a like.
Capitalism is the free exchange of goods and services. That's why it doesn't live very long. Because the biggest player immediately leverages government to burn the ladder behind them. Capitalism died in the US around 1795. After that it was a governmental crony system.
I love how Ross was saying this for 5 years and no one cared until their libraries started disappearing.
My brain glitched in the beginning with Gordon Freeman talking in Frost's voice
It was so weird seeing Ross on here. I feel like he lives in his own reality outside of the RUclips sphere, so seeing him acknowledged on another big RUclips channel feels like I'm jumping universes.
imagine you bought a book - took it home, loved it cherished it, planned to share it with your kids when they're old enough - one day someone just walks in to your house, picks the book up and leaves the dust cover. when you confront the person, they say 'Sorry we're discontinuing this book, but you can keep the dust cover.
That's essentially what game boxes, and downloaded games sat on people hard drives will become, just the remnants of something you loved.
and at the end of the day it just encourages piracy - "this game doesnt work on THE OFFICAL servers...."
And then, bizarrely, the company will take down the unofficial servers. I know it could technically be a violation of copyright law, but if they aren't offering the product, then what are they losing? At that point it's just petty
I bring this up every time because Ross has to bring it up every time, physical copies of games can not save you, the crew is a game you can buy a physical copy of right now, same with say Darkspore. Right now both of those games are completely DEAD, those physical copies are utterly useless. Physical copies of games cannot save you from games being shut down.
THIS!
Self-hosting tools should be legally required for any game that takes your money, or at the very least they should be required to be available in the event that the servers shut down.
Thanks for further illustrating this, Frost.
I am so glad you're covering this. It's been tough trying to get awareness. Some people even started arguing that this movement will hurt indies... like... how many indies have Live Service games that they have killed tho..
Wonderful crossover. Ross is the man, and he's doing the Lord's work.
It's not really about having to have other governments do this. Just like how Australia got a steam refunds despite that never being mandated in America. So if a company wants to sell a game in France, they'll have to have an end-of-life plan So that way even non-french people can benefit from it
Yeah, that's the goal, basically- getting at least one large market to rule on the side of gamers, so that publishers will either have to do the same for everyone else, or go to the expense of two entirely different versions. (It's highly unlikely they'd just restrict sales for that market, since they love high sales numbers.)
To my mind, the solution seems pretty simple. It only takes one law:
If you shut down a game's servers so that a portion of the game is no longer available, you must make a self-hostable server implementation available for free to the community.
Then comes the hard part: Getting a government to implement that law, when game publishers have way more money (and therefore more influence) than we do.
@@TheRogueWolf I didn't say it would be easy to make happen. The solution is simple, the political will to enact the solution is not.
Functionally unenforceable, unfortunately; creating an implementation for the public to use is actually no small feat (even before you consider the potential use of licensed or proprietary tools in the server operation that you legally can't distribute this way), so if someone violates this law there isn't necessarily a legal remedy that exists, let alone the difficulty of proving that a company was intentionally stalling or pretending it was impossible vs it actually just being very difficult.
What you could do, though, is say that for any purchase of this type, you are legally obligated to refund everyone if you close quickly. Suppose that the refund amount shrinks by 1-3% each month, so that it's financially plausible to actually shutter support for things after a few years...with the crucial caveat that the time tracking is per transaction. You shutter something like WoW? People's subscriptions from 10 years ago don't need to be refunded, but their ones from this year sure do...as do all their recent microtransactions.
Give an exception to this for anything that has permanence, such as the availability of third party servers, and suddenly it's financially helpful to build a retirement plan for the game into the design from the ground up. You'd have to be very careful about how you define "permanent" (memories and experiences don't count, subscriptions don't get exempted just because they come with lasting rewards, etc), but I think it's a much more plausible direction that's in line with existing legal structures.
Probably also need to legislate that "if you've abandoned it, you can't sue other people for refurbishing it" too, though. But we should do that anyway, hoarding unused licenses is a plague.
@@SparkSovereign The GDPR (EU) mandates data be provided in a form readable to the person it belongs to. No reason not to enforce the same for software.
Why do single player games even need server parts to begin with? Not the customers fault the seller made dumb decisions!
In the not too distant past (Minecraft, 2011), there was just your computer, and if you wanted to play with someone else, they had their computer, you clicked a button and your computer served the multiplayer to the second guy!
"Server" does not mean "Magic complicated sci-fi device", it means "another computer"
@@MazeFrame I have done a lot of CS, I am well aware that servers are not magic. I'm also aware that while you can make simple, portable server hosting programs, you can also end up with labyrinthine stuff that's tightly coupled to the specific hardware it's running on, relies on databases filled with confidential information, etc. Giant AAA games are more likely to fall into the latter category, unless they're very strongly encouraged to avoid such entanglements in the design phase. (That said there's plenty of stuff that would be trivial to release, but don't expect that to be feasible for something like Destiny.)
A campaign I can get behind.
I've been following Ross for a while... he's one sharp dude. Utterly dedicated, and incredibly informed.
the legal dilemma from legislating this also includes the fact that online games require active upkeep. it costs money to keep servers active, a cost that increases with inflation, but with a fixed initial profit, making it more unprofitable in the long run. Common Law systems are extremely hesitant to enforce unprofitable actions or even just any actions. It's why you don't see many positive injunctions forcing people to do something, because that borders on legal slavery.
Thank you for accurately portraying the campaign and what Ross Scott tries to accomplish. In his effort to spread the word and get more eyes on it, he's unfortunately gotten 'help' from people who completely misrepresent the whole thing and add their own messages to it, that just hurt more than help, really. Like the "piracy isn't stealing" mentality or "vote with your wallet" crap. Neither of which will actually work for AAA game preservation.
Consumers are not free from guilt here either. Despite getting burned multiple times, I still see so many preordering games that nobody has played yet, only to predictably find a substandard experience.
Here's a good question, are the people who preorder the same as the people who complain? There's another really good Cold Take video on the Escapist about why voting with your wallet can feel like a losing battle
Unfortunately, that's the sad truth.DTheTheThisThis These practices exist because there are enough people who support them. There are enough people who complain every time and then buy anyway and there are people who simply don't care.
"...all of this can incite change through American capitalism as well."
Haha, I like it when you add comedy to these serious subjects.
The US often looks at what works in other countries, declares it to be communism or socialism and doubles down on the bullshit they're already doing, especially with consumer and employee protection laws.
Sincerely Someone who has worked in the US for two years.
I have never heard someone go “wow I wish they removed backwards comparability”
Lol
"A free market is not a lawless market, and a lawless market is not a free market." - Adam Smith, inventor of Economics and generally considered the father of Capitalism.
Just like how a lawless society is a dictatorship for whoever is strongest at that particular moment, a lawless market is a dictatorship for whichever entity is richest at that moment. American "Capitalism" is so eroded from what the original design was, mostly because people hear "free market" and think "lawless market", "I can do whatever I want without restriction", etc. Freedom can only be upheld by laws though.
Also, side note, for a nation that claims to be all about free markets and Capitalism, they sure do have some weird heavily socialistic markets.
Ehh, Disagree. Right now our society has a bunch of powerful warlords that say and do whatever they want and there's not much we can do about it. In an anarchic society, you could at least tell the warlords to fuck off and fight back as a community.
Thank you for covering this! There have been a lot of bad actors crying 'but no-one plays The Crew anymore anyway' and more innocent souls shrugging their shoulders saying 'well if it's a live service game I can see how sad it is to lose that community'. Sure there are people for whom it's a community, but that's not the problem at hand. The problem is rendering a game unplayable with the excuse of live service. That the game could work perfectly well without a server if it wasn't required to activate the game, if that sounds familiar it's because it's internet connection DRM renamed and it's being revoked not becauseyou don't own the game but because you bought the game and Ubisoft reckon you should just buy another game, an inferior newer game, that costs more. Well I still want to drive across the map I paid, less than 2 years ago, to drive across. The extent of the 'live service' was occasionally a blip would appear on your map and it was another player passing by, or even more rarely, a player that has nothing better to do that stalk you for half an hour. It's not needed. It was never needed.
Thanks for the coverage chief
The best part of this is, as Ross has explained, it won't even be difficult for companies to offer the server software when the game shuts down or patch always online games to be playable, as long as they plan to do it from the start. All we have to do is give them incentive.
So well done, thank you for spreading the word. I hope we together can do the nessery change in the system.
When I saw Ross Scott's video, I immediately thought of Frost. I'm so happy that you've taken up the call and brought attention to it. I wish there was more I could do, but alas, I live in America and there's not a lot we can do about it. Here's hoping the French and Aussies can carry us.
Glad more people are spreading the message!
Stop Killing Games is a important campaign for sure. Also I can speak for the sponsor, owned it since launch great game especially if you're an old school Tactical shooter fan.
No kidding, Cold take has become one of my favorite shows on this channel
I like the B-roll footage of you driving sensibly and mildly fast in a Dodge Viper. I have The Crew 2, and i spend most of my time avoiding all the 'hip, street talking' people telling me to "trick my whip" and do all sorts of racing, and just use it as a cross-country American road trip simulator 😀
I'm doing my part :)
STOP KILLING GAMES
I'm rooting for Ross and all this so hard. There's not much I can realistically do myself (got no money, and I never bought The Crew), but I am cheering.
WoW was the one that got me interested in this whole issue 14 years ago with the release of cataclysm. Every expansion up to that point had been offered with a "buy it if you want it, don't buy it don't interact with the new stuff" approach. Fine the choice was still on the consumer. Then cataclysm came out and the three games I had purchased up to that point were effectively deleted against my will.
Sure as a consumer I had the right to just walk away. I didn't have to buy the expansion and I didn't have to keep paying the monthly subscription (which I didn't). Still the three $60 games and 6 years of monthly subscriptions (over a grand of money) were basically gone. Sure my characters and a lot of my gear were still there but they fundamentally overhauled so many systems in the game it was practically like a new game.
Even worse for some of my friends that played the update increased the minimum system requirements so they couldn't even install the new game to replace the old one, the game they were playing was just 100% gone.
In the end the games I had purchased had been taken back and replaced with a new game I didn't want, and I didn't have a say in the matter. Can you imagine if the car dealership, 6 years after you bought your car, just showed up to your house one night and replaced your truck with a car without your consent? Even if the car was 'of equal market value' would that be acceptable?
I would like to add that while precedent in laws is good and makes it easier for others to pass similar laws in a "first one in the pool" type of way, it's also great because others can look at how it was implemented and tweak their own laws to better suit the desired outcome or close any loopholes.
So happy to see Ross' campaign start to make waves. Everyone in this multi-billion dollar industry wants the same thing: an answer. We don't know right now if "updating" software into unplayable states without end users' consent is allowed under most countries' laws. Most people are hoping someone with a gavel will conclude that it isn't. But at the very least we ALL want to know for sure.
Love Ross Scott's campaign. Thanks for making this video!
Civil Law means every single judge gets to unilaterally rule on a matter as they all see fit. If a judge doesn't think much of self defense and always overestimates how easily you can flee, you will lose pretty much every self-defense case before that judge. If you get a sympathetic judge, you can take self defense to some silly extremes and still get off.
Meanwhile in Common Law, it's all built upon the idea that all courts should rule the same cases the same way. The limits of what is and is not self defense is less what a judge thinks it should be, it's based on how well you can argue your case resembles past cases.