🔴 Meeting George (Negative Feedback) + Leica M10M Monochrom
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- Опубликовано: 9 окт 2022
- Leica M10M Monochrom review / first impressions (Discussing vs M240, M10R and Leica SL)
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Hi Matt, just check your LR presets can they be applied on LR mobile or just for computer version? Thanks
@@iwkdlcloud Hi Ken, they are for desktop but if you don’t own a laptop I can make you mobile version. Just email me.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom thanks Matt I do have laptop and computer just picked up a Q and wish to try out Q presets. I found myself using mobile version more so would like to have them on both laptop and mobile. What’s your email address? pls make both for me to purchase. Many thanks.
If you’re still in contact with him (or if he’s reading this comment), you should let him know to maybe post one final video letting everyone know he’s retired. Of course he’s not obligated to, but he has a lot of fans that care about him and it would at least give them a sense of closure!
Anyway hope all is well mate
He did say he’s not on social media so I can’t contact him but yes he might see this if it gets enough views.
Maybe he was getting too much Negative Feedback and just had to step away.
@@Being_Joe haha nice 😂
I never thought I'll bye a M monochrome one day. And yet, I did it (a second hand M10M) 2 days ago.
3 main reasons why : 1- I appreciate more and more shooting B&W. It comes next to using more and more a single 50mm lens. 2- I'm not as clever as you are in post-prod to find the best rendering. 3- M10M's sensor is unbeatable in very low light : you can shoot with just a candle light and get a very decent image, even at 100.000 ISO.
I keep my M262 of course, but the monochrome will probably be my first choice henceforth.
Congrats Marc! I hear you. I never thought I'd have a Leica.. and years later I saw the SL and said to myself, no chance! :)
I purchased a used Monochrom Typ 246 from a local shop here in Montreal for roughly £2850 (with 1 year warranty), and am very happy with it. Like you say, Monochrom is a niche product, but I could not resist picking one up as a sidekick to my M10-R.
Nice Daniel! I saw that camera for a similar cost here when checking prices for the video.
Ah, I tick that box. I like Leica, I love shooting in the dark and I really like monochrome! I've owned the M10M for nearly two years now. It's a committing camera, but from my point of view it's been just brilliant.
Thanks Mark! Yes you have the best tool for night shooting!
Matt, your channel is in a niche market so the quality of your topics covered, is more important than the quantity of followers.
Next to your channel I follow other more or less Leica related channels like Thorsten Overgaards and Mathphotographer but also Robin (the real sir Robin) and they all have
around 38K followers.
So you are doing great compared to the competition !
And being specialised keeps the noobs away too.
You are doing great man, just keep it up.
Thanks RS, appreciated
Next time I am in London during the day I might try and visit aperture
Yes do! Great guys, say you saw them on RUclips :)
The prices of the M10M are going down because more people are getting their hands on the M11M. So I got one. It's a modernized version of the M10 with touch screen, electronic level and a different design under the bottom plate.
Great! Yes the same is happening with the Q2 now people are jumping on the Q3.
Hi Matt
Excellent
I just picked up a used M10m from the Leica San Francisco store. Been using my 50 summilux on it- wide open. Definitely a difference working to “not blowout the highlights “. Having a ball though. Thank you for all your great videos.
Thanks John, congrats! (Yes sorry I should have mentioned that, it’s the same with Q2M).
I had wondered what happened! I'm glad to hear he's doing ok.
I expect my next camera will be a monochrome converted Nikon by maxmax:) Great info - thanks!
Thanks Jeremy + nice!
I used to do a lot of deep space astro imaging, and the best Cooled CCDs for photographing very faint distant objects were Monochrome CCDs. It may surprise people to know that digital sensors are all mono at the first stage of manufacture and the Bayer Matrix filter array, IR/UV block filter and the Low pass are all added later. All those filters make a ' colour ' sensor much less sesnitive than a true monochrome sensor. So I am not surprised that the Leica M10 M is so good at low light, at a price of course.
On top of that it takes 9 sensels to calculate what color the pixel should display. Effectively making the mono pixel count three times that of color. So a 40 megapixel mono is effectively a 120 megapixel color equivalent.
@@williaminbody205 I’ve read that while in theory that may be true, modern demosaicing technology has gotten so good that it’s really only about a 2/3rds improvement. So a 40 megapixel M10M photo might be something like 66ish megapixels comparatively speaking. Still a big improvement and the improvements in high ISO performance cannot be ignored.
Thanks. Yes the lack of Bauer filter helps for sure.
@@williaminbody205 thanks William!
@@hellatightdude They have improved the algorithms to ' guess ' what is missing due to the Bayer filter and the gaps between the photosites. Microlensing tries to concentrate the light onto the photosites and it does a credible job of upping the sensitivity for an RGB sensor. A lot of the so called ' raw ' files of these new digital cameras are not actually raw. The analogue output of the sensors are massaged to clean them up, that is why the more powerful the micro computers within the camera become, so do the claims of ' clean ' images at A crazy ' iso', in effect they sort of reconstruct the pixels. Monochrome sensor is still the best bet for low light sensitivity and outright resolution for a digital camera. you can actually have brilliant colour with a Monochrome sensor, for static objects that is. All you need is a set of high quality Broadband R,G,B filters. You'd photograph the scene through each filter and you can use either Photoshop or an Astrophotography software to combine the images in post. This is exactly the technique that we used to image full spectrum emission objects ( Galaxies more often than others ). For Nebulea you'd need Narrowband Ha, OIII, Sii and Nii filters , and some very deep pockets.
Great stuff. Never been so early. Shame about Negative Feedback. I liked his channel and delivery style.
Thanks Derren! Yes he might be back one day, we’ll see
Hello Matt, I understand this was a quick encounter with the M10 monochrome and as a result your video ends up being a fast survey too. So, if I may, I will provide a few more info (I have been using an M10 mono for over 2 years now. Prior to this I used an M6, then M240 which I found a little bulky as far thicker than my M6-I just skipped the M8 and M9 as they did not meet my needs and my standards for a Leica camera-, then an M10P which is an improved M10).
As you pointed out the M10 mono is a distinctively niche camera with minuses (no color) and, as a consequence of the minus, plusses: the first one is the fact that the CMOS sensor has no Bayer array filter in front of it. As a result, there is no interpolation involved in the recording of images (the way the processor guesses and restitutes colors, which is pure A.I. and very little real world experience): imagine a big blue ball on a red carpet and know that only half of the pixels of the sensor will actually render it, the green ones (50% of the sensor) not "seeing" it. The image is then the result of the calculations of the processor ("Interpolation"). The consequence of this is that the M10 mono images show far more resolution (precise details) for a 40 Mp sensor than its color version, the M10 R. Now as far of prices, let us compare apples to apples, M10R and M10 mono are roughly the same. So in terms of current "Leica prices" no difference, nothing to write about.The second consequence, as Matt points out, is the (unseen until now) behavior of the sensor/camera in low light/very high ISO situations (unbeaten so far).
The issue with a no-color filter in front of sensor and only one channel to render images (no RGB just G(ray scale)) is that there is no way to get any lee-way in the highlights using information in a specific channel )often blue) over the two others. As anyone can notice in Matt's examples, the highlights are often blown out. One cannot use a monochrome camera as a color one and has definitely to expose for the highlights. On the other hand, the amount of information one can get out of the shadows is rather amazing, showing the qualities of the dynamic range of the sensor. Practically, when I do not use the electronic viewfinder (making it easy to check for over-exposures in the highlights), I systematically underexpose by 1 or 2 stops depending on the situations.
Finally in terms of differences between the M240 and the M10/11 generations (chronologically M10, M10 P, M10 mono, M10 R) there are a lot. As mentioned above the M240 was noticeably thicker than the last analog Ms (M6, M7). This sincerely felt awkward as I was concerned-I had used an M6 since 1989, so habits tend to impose themselves. With the M10 generations Leica rectified this issue, one with which many Leica users were, as I was, uncomfortable, and scaled back the size of the M240 to that of the M6/M7 (which involved reducing the size and somewhat capacity of the battery, its weight too-the solution is just to leave the house with more than a single battery; it is that simple and a little price to pay for the comfort and gain in size and weight). There was also a big leap in terms of ISO sensitivity from the M240 to the M10: I had always cringed when having to choose any ISO above 800 on my M240, that was gone with the M10 generation. The speed of writing images on the SD card and the noise made by the shutter were also both improved (reduced) on the M10 compared to the 240 (more, the M10 P got twice the buffer size of the M10 and an even more silent shutter).
These are my two grains of salt. Keep on doing the good work Matt. I always enjoy your videos and their tone. Best,
Thanks Bruno, yes sorry if I skipped over many of the M10 features. (I knew i'd done the M10 video in the past so didn't want to duplicate too much). Thanks for the extra M10M info, and yes I should have mentioned shoot for the highlights the same as the Q2M. I shot as normal and you see the results. :)
My first Leica was the M10M. I fell in LOVE with it and it is my always carry with me camera.
Matt: I'm actually surprised that you don't hop on one as that from your videos you seem to shoot B&W primarily....I would think this would be your main tool?
You have cameras to cover color...save up and get one of these for your B&W digital needs.
I cannot recommend the M10M enough, it changed the way I look at and shoot the world....for the better!!
:)
Have a great day!
CC
Thanks CC! I know on paper it makes sense for me to get this but in reality I much prefer editing RGB files to B&W (I feel I miss out on a lot of potential with the Q2M and M10M files as I can't get then look I like in post with my presets.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom I can see your point.
Currently, I'm working in Capture One and while the M10M files give HUGE amounts of leeway to manipulate gradations of luminance in post (unless you truly blow out the highlights), I too miss a bit of the color manipulations you can do under the covers with RGB to B&W.
That being said, I pretty much keep a yellow filter on every lens on my M10M...and switch to Orange at times (rarely Red, but I can)....and honestly, that tends to give me the *pop* I might miss doing the color to B&W.
Anyway, I would encourage you to play a bit more with the monochrome cameras and maybe spend a day or two with one and throw filters on them.
Anyway...thanks for reply, looking forward to your next video adventure and have a GREAT day!!
CC
Indeed, those slim BP-SCL5 batteries, which I use in my M10, do drain quickly, in the M10, compared to the BP-SCL2, which I use in my M Type 246 Monochrom. Thanks for your thoughts/findings on the SL versus the M10 Monochrom.
The LCD or EVF will kill the battery life
Thanks Rex!
@@carlosmcse yes it speeds up the usage for sure
Great video! What is your expert opinion on whether digital b&w can compare to the rich tones, contrast, dynamic range to an analogue camera?
Thanks Lucy, Analogue always wins for me, digital is to test, film for proper photos when I shoot models. (I also prefer converting colour to B&W and get better results).
Thanks Matt!
For your portrait tutorial, would you prefer a Q2M or a M10M/28 mm Summicron ASPH (most recent version)?
Q2M if limited to 28 Cron v2 on M10M
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Good answer, Matt. I always choose to carry my Q2M unless I have a good reason to use my other M lenses on the M10M.
I keep toying with the idea of buying a Monochrom version of one of Leica's M or Q cameras, but I do like the versatility that shooting in colour gives. The subsequent black and white conversions are good enough to my eye, but I've never seen a large image taken with a monochrome camera. I might change my mind if I did. I don't print my photographs, so I think any resolution advantage a monochrome only camera would bestow would be lost. Incidentally, the SL2-S is no slouch in low light, and coupled with something like Topaz Labs DeNoise AI gives pretty decent results at high ISO.
Thanks Brian, yes i'm the same, i've not been tempted by Mono bodies. I can get better images for my taste starting with RGB RAWs.
Let us be fair, in order to compare and declare one is better than the other, one must use the two objects of the comparison in the same way, under the same circumstances. One has also got to state what one's goals are. Now unless you print at least 50 cm x 75 cm (20"x30") the difference in details/resolution between a 40 Mp monochrome and a 40 Mp Bayer-filter RGB camera will be hardly noticeable. Brian, if you are precise with your framing and composition and do not need to crop, and unless you are deep in BW photography, you may not need a monochrome camera.
@@BrunoChalifour Thank you Bruno. I think that's good advice.
Cool camera. I wonder how it stacks up against a M11 though, which is not that much more expensive but seems to have more advanced tech. I do like the idea of the monochrom though :)
It’s all about the monochrome sensor. At some point they’ll have the M11 monochrome and they’ll compare I’m sure.
For me the M11 is the M to make rangefinders an easier pill to swallow for mirrorless users.
The M10 mono is still better in low light/high ISO conditions due to its lack of color filter and lower resolution than the M11.
@@carlosmcse I am not sure that a 60 Mp (who needs them) sensor with no stabilization is such a good idea. An M10 R or even M10 P might be better choices for most (and not even mentioning the financial side here).
@@BrunoChalifour Yea. I wasn’t too impressed with the M11 so I just went for the M10R. I don’t want things TOO easy. 😀
Thanks Thomas, yes good thought.
I’d dare to suggest that a Q2M would be a rival due to having stabilisation.
Thanks Calvin, yes great point on Q2M!
Let's put it this way: with your Panasonic S5 (or any other S) you get at least 4 stops by IS, so instead of shooting 12500 ISO you can stay under 3200 or even less. Same with the S1r or Sl2, and the you get probably a similar percoeved resolution as with the M10M
Thanks Steve! IS is only useful for static subjects so I rarely use it. High ISO is better for moving breathing subjects. (And RF cameras can be shot at very slow SS too without IS).
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom if I may ask what is the slowest shutterspeed you use for your portraits work?
@@webersteve1547 1/50 but if I have to occasionally 1/30 or 1/15 with film in emergencies (I try not too as normally some softness when zoom in)
@@webersteve1547 1/50 but if I have to occasionally 1/30 or 1/15 with film in emergencies (I try not too as normally some softness when zoom in)
Thank you for another good video. You seem to favor wide open apertures. Why?
He’s a BokeBro!
Thanks Zoltan, normally as I shoot portraits. For premium Leica lenses you don’t buy a 1.4 to shoot at f2 as you pay the extra for it to be great at f1.4. (Older lenses yes sometimes I have to shoot at f2 say).
@@carlosmcse I like anything that looks better than reality!
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Understood
@@zoltankaparthy9095 only my opinion but yes new Leica lenses are designed to be good wide open (like the Q. Great at 1.7).
Speaking of niche, it would be great fun to have a m10-MD or -RD, without the screen 🤓 Alas, one can dream…
Just tape the back of any other Leica...
M10-D has no screen
@@ofeykalakar1 Yes I know that is why I wrote if you cover the screen of any other model you get a D model ;o)
Haha yes, or just put camera in half case.
@@BrunoChalifour and it also has a brilliant thumb rest modelled on an advance lever.
Cheers Matt - plenty of informative thoughts. I'm happy with digital for colour work, but for mono I'm more than happy to stick to my supplies of film. Much more fun!
Thanks Ray, I prefer the process of colour + BW preset vs Mono. (and film ofc!)
To anyone reading this and contemplating about buying the Monochrom I would say STOP and don't make my mistake. I bought the original Monochrom and apart from the appalling sensor corrosion it was a waste of money. The B&W from (a) My Leica M8 is just as good if not better - don't underestimate this superb B&W camera (b) Any of my Fuji cameras but especially the X-Pro1 is just as good and has more "feel" and film like look to the "chocolate box" Monochrom output. (c) The Leica SL is also superb for B&W especially with R lenses that for some reason are actually better on this camera than M lenses with the correct Leica M to L adapter. Don't waste your money on the overpriced Monochrom - don't be taken in by the hype. Yes the high ISO performance is very good but so what I don't want or need a camera to shoot at ISO 10,000. In film days ISO 400 was and still is perfectly adequate. Nothing at all wrong with lusting after nice gear BUT remember the image from the Monochrom is NOT unique. Instead spend your money an a proper B&W conversion program like Silver FX Pro. Remember that Leica actually shipped the original Monochrom with Silver FX Pro because the files out of the camera are deliberately flat and this, absolutely correctly, is to allow them to be manipulated in post processing - a flat image is far better to PP. Therefore do not expect the files straight out of a Monochrom to be "finished" they deliberately look terrible to allow them to be tweaked in PP to make really nice images. This though is the thing if in order to get a decent looking image from the camera, the files have to be adjusted in PP, then so can a file from any other camera to achieve a virtually identical result. Also remember that FUJI images shot as JPG's can have a film profile added at the taking stage ie FUJI Acros B&W film simulation which sorry to say is MUCH better than anything SOC from the Monochrom. Yes I know that the Monochrom is VERY good at high ISO but at at normal ISO's any other modern digital camera is just as good. Admittedly just my thoughts and opinion but I wish that someone had told me this when I fell for the Monochrom myth and wasted a wad of money on one. PS: I worked as a press photographer for 25 years so with respect I do actually know what I am talking about and own every Leica from a 111A to a MP with all the digital cameras in between. I love Leica cameras but the Monochrom is a fad that to me at least just isn't worth it! Sorry I hate to say this but it's how I find using the Monochrom along with all the Leica digital M cameras and SL plus Nikon and Fuji - ALL are capable of making superb images but that's it they ALL are and the Monochrom is absolutely not so good as to outshine the others and justify it's high price!
Thanks Francis!
I have no idea who he is. But I know you!
To be honest, I like the noise at 12800 from the SL. Edited you can really make that noise into something very creative.
I guess it’s not good or bad just depends what you’re going for.
The B&W raw from the monochrome isn’t as flexible as the color raw file. You have access to more with the color raw when you convert to B&W.
Can’t ignore the tonality from the monochrome sensor of course, but for me the color RAW is a more flexible file and you can make beautiful B&W with it.
The real decision for me is just the high ISO noise. If you want clean files at ISO50,000 then okay. Monochrome for you.
Agreed, there is more versatility with an RGB file converted to BW but you get an after-the-fact BW image whose rendition has more to do with your work on a computer than the actual scene. However the BW images of a monochrome camera are unique in their look. They are also far more detailed than their color cousins taken with a sensor of similar resolution (photosites per square inch), and better behavior in low light.
PS 1: as with film you can also use color filters on the lens with a monochrome camera.
PS 2: I do not think that noise/grain makes anything more creative (some say "artistic" which I loathe and think is also a mistake). The creative one should be the person behind the camera, the rest has to do with the way they use whatever camera they use to express their creativity. A tool has never been creative, its user can be.
@@BrunoChalifour The grain by itself doesn’t make anything more artistic, it just gives you more choices. Like imperfect lenses.
Personally I don’t want things clean and perfect all the time. The less perfect something is the more choices I have to express myself.
A file that’s perfectly clean all the time or a lens that’s perfectly sharp and contrasty all the time at every aperture, those things are inflexible to me. Imperfections make things more flexible.
@@carlosmcse It is easy to make a "clean and perfect" thing look "ugly and imperfect" far harder to make an "ugly and imperfect" thing look "clean and perfect". In other words I have far more choices with a good quality image than with a bad quality image, with a good lens than with an imperfect lens as I can make a photograph taken with a Leica M10 R and a Summilux look as if it were taken with a Holga (plastic camera with a plastic lens) but I do not see how I could make a photograph taken with a Holga look as if it had been taken by a LeicaM10 R and a Summilux ! I can easily add grain/noise to a photograph that does not show any and make it look as if it had some from the start (Salgado did that for his "Genesis" exhibition), but suppressing grain/noise of a grainy/noisy image will never make it look as if it had been taken without any. So by starting with a good (if not "clean and perfect") image I give myself far more choices and chances to be "creative"; starting with an image with flaws I necessarily limit my possibilities (banning a "clean and perfect" image forever). For me the choice is simple... ;o) Bad tools limit what you can do with them to... their limitations. Good tools have got far fewer limitations.
@@BrunoChalifour I never said bad, I said imperfect. This is the problem now. Everyone thinks imperfections are bad.
I didn’t read the rest. Too long.
Just let your pictures speak for themselves. If a picture is worth 1,000 words then brevity my friend. Brevity brevity brevity.
Agree Carlos, I much prefer editing colour RAW 110% and yes the SL dud better than I perhaps expected in low light. 1000x better than my M240!
George? Here? That was unexpected.
Yes I was surprised to see him!
To me - and of course this is only my opinion. I have the original Monochrom - M9 version and to be honest it's the only camera I regret buying. The images are just too clean and to me look false and "chocolate boxy". I only shoot B&W and along with the majority film images with Fomapan 100 and 400 I shoot both M9 M240 pictures that I convert to B&W in Silver FX Pro (I shoot colour and then convert as you can then use colour filter effects) and I have to be honest here the M9 gives the BEST B&W with the M240 giving indistinguishable images to the Monochrom. My original M8 though beats them ALL and is without doubt the best digital Leica for B&W - so to me at least the Monochrom cameras are over hyped and unless you want grain free images (which I don't) an old M8/M9 is the much better and far cheaper way to go with images that are actually better!
Thanks Francis, YES I should have mentioned theM8 as a killer Mono shooter! Totally agree and agree that I also get better B&W images from RGB cameras like the SL and M240 vs Mono bodies. (for my taste).
"Images that are actually better" with an old M8 or M9 is a very personal definition of "better", I am sure you realize it. The M8 was not full frame and 10.3 Mp, the M9 was only 18 Mp. Leica had so many problems with these two Kodak CCD sensors that they stopped working with Kodak for the M240 (CMOS and 24 Mp), in my opinion and experience the first digital Leica worth owning and keeping for the above mentioned reasons (but it is just my opinion). Now the M10 Mono is a 41 Mp CMOS sensor with 2019 technology, if, just according to specs, history and the fact that it is also produced by Leica for whom quality is important in order to command their prices, it is not a reasonably "better" camera I wonder what is. Subjectively, it is another matter, agreed, but it is just your subjectivity.
@@MattOsborne-MrLeicaCom Remember Matt that using a monochrome camera, and in this case the M10 mono, is totally different from using a regular Bayer-filter-equipped camera. It is different in terms of what subjects to photograph, how to photograph them (exposure included) and then how to process and print the files generated by the camera. So it may take so time to "tame the beast" (my experience) and be able to make any comparison (although I wonder whether a comparison is that useful. Better say I enjoy the versatility of an RGB sensor and my photography does not need me to invest in an M10 mono , or I enjoy the challenge of a monochromatic sensor and the special (at least different) images it generates. Measure for measure as Bill used to say.
Hmmmmm, doesn't represent the camera in my view, at all.... And yes, I use it.
I would somewhat agree (see my comment).
Hi Eric, thanks. Yes sorry it wasn’t a deep dive on the M10M. I prefer the RGB sensors for editing so I was as interested in the M10 chassis.