Titan Sub: Why OceanGate Waits 8 Hrs Call Coast Guard, Q & A
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- Jeff Ostroff answers several viewer questions about the wreckage of the OceanGate Titan Sub that imploded at the wreck site of the Titanic, and also why OceanGate waited 8 hours before calling in the Coast Guard. From here the manufacturing videos of the Titan submarine shed clues into how the submarine explosion disaster may have occurred. Also, was OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush a narcissist? We hope you learned a lot from this study and analysis of the Titan submarine tour implosion.
Хобби
If there was an incident where they were stuck for 24 hours in that sub, I’d have to argue that there was at least one incident where something went wrong. I feel that the hesitation to call the CG is they were scared of Rush’s reaction if he did resurface. He’d have been livid if they had brought any negative attention to his money maker, also bruising his ego.
After all we know about Rush now, I would say he left a standing order to his team on the polar prince to not sound the alarm, as he'll fix whatever the problem is as before.
it never happened, it is total bullshit.......the whole story....total bullshit, like how the salvage team took all the bolts out of the 'recovered' front end...
Exactly. The look of constant surprise at being able to get away with the entire scheme is the look I see in every picture of Stockton Rush, to the point it would be comical were it not so tragic. If they called the Coast Guard every time something happened, they'd have been shut down before the implosion
Sadly, I fear you are right. Maybe also there was a "bullying" culture whereby all employees had to do what he said, or else they got fired?
@@cmartin_ok100%
They even took to court the engineer who was worried about safety! Can’t imagine what others went through
@@cmartin_ok Fired and Sued perhaps.
A textbook example of “normalization of deviance”. The perception of risk is lower each time corners are cut and a disaster doesn’t happen. In reality, the risk of using this sub increased with each mission because of stress on the materials.
Or normalization of deviants!
"Eh, we did it slightly wrong, but it held up fine, right? Right? Don't worry about it buddy everything's gonna be o-"
@@sparky6086 Yeah, you know, like Pride Month...
Idc who you 💥 but I do care about Dylan acting like a 💩🤡 and calling it female Ness 🤮
@luciodipace7891 that makes no sense.
This is the first time I've heard about the previous dive where the batteries failed, couldn't drop ballast, and Rush asked the rest of the crew if they were cool with sleeping on the sea floor for 16-24 hours while they wait for the chemical ballast release to dissolve. like bruh wtf. apparently two crew members objected so the company men kept trying and did eventually figure out a way to drop ballast. Were they just going to stop trying and go to bed? what an insane situation
Just wow
allegedly.. i never saw it reported, potentially fake news.
@@hqcart1 No, not fake. One of the guys on the crew gave an interview about it on here.
IIRC by the time they broke surface it was dark and difficult to get the sub back on board. They ended up sealed in that thing for over 20 hours.
sounds like those guys dodged a bullet.... a full 20 hrs under that pressure, would have likely sealed their fate.
If the Polar Prince waiting 8 hours doesn’t highlight the complete lack of protocol and safety within this company, then the numerous statements by Stockton Rush certainly does.
I found it really disturbing how much safety had been abandoned at practically every level of this company, even when the absolute worst case scenario happened, it was treated like nothing happened because losing communication was normalized.
Everything unsafe was normalized at Ocean Gate, that’s really Stockton Rush’s legacy.
Conspiracy. Have you seen the sullyman mum Interview. She's dont give a shxt
They probably waited to buy time for their legal team
"they" knew instantly the Disaster
Shock stiff
And now Rush's name forever will be linked to arrogance, narcissistic megalomania that lead to unnecessary loss of life.
@@sa4555 it is a Symbol for American Play Mobile "Eng ineering"
who buys anything American anymore...
Apple products are manufactured in CHINA
who will buy this....
Self Titanic
I think Oceangate knew what happened when it happened. The extra time was time spent contacting their legal team on how to handle the situation. Hence, the 96 hour time window for the oxygen. Which is also when they found the wreckage.... Right where you would think it would be despite the fact they had this grandiose search operation. Search and rescue theatre is what that was.
it does seem intentional not saying they heard a loud underwater boom. They had this data and withheld it. Someone should have called the news and told them we know what happened. They went into that Knocking BS and stuff. Just media hype for viewership very cringe
You and I think alike. I suggested this from day 1 and confirmed my suspicions that Thursday when the air was supposedly up and they found the remains.
Nailed it! That’s exactly what happened!
Oh, you mean "Bastardpiece Theater"
I'm fairly certain the reason for it playing out like that is a priority difference between rescue and recovery. As long as there was even a 0.1% chance of rescue, it would have been a waste of resources/time to search the ocean floor below where it lost contact. During that 96 hours all efforts were better spent on searching areas they could be at if still alive even if only a tiny % chance. Then once the 96 hour time was reached, they knew rescue wasn't an option and immediately dove straight down from where the sub was at when contact was lost, which is where they suspected it would be if it imploded.
I also think they didn't initially have the capability to dive to the ocean floor. I thought I'd read that they were waiting on some other ship (with a submersible that could reach that depth) to arrive before that was even an option.
Given what we know of Stockton Rush, there was probably lots of red warning lights in the submersible but he was like "Nah it'll be fine" before it imploded.
Wasn’t there a text where Stockton said that he was hearing those pesky crackling sounds again?
Reminds me of a buddy of mine whose wife was about to divorce him. I was like, bro all four horsemen of the apocalypse are here, you are going to lose it. "Nah, it'll be fine". Well, it wasn't fine.
There is unconfirmed audio transcript to this effect, the issue being the sensors were all going off yet they couldn't power up the thrusters and the release of balast and skids had not increased the speed of ascent.
The more we learn about OceanGate the less surprised we should be regarding the final act. A healthy fear of death keeps us in check, so we can continue to go home to our families. This dude got exactly what he was looking for, going out with a bang, forever remembered for his foolishness and how not to do things.
He got crushed by his hubris. Too bad he had to take four other people with him.
@@retstak very true indeed.
@@retstakquite literally crushed
remembered as the guy who broke the rules and the laws of nature
@@galaxia4709He fought nature and nature won. Tale as old as time.
His major concern was cost. Deep Sea submersibles cost a lot of money to design, build and test. So he developed a narrative of denial about safety concerns to cover this inability to fund the project adequately. It was a defensive mechanism that took on a life of its own. If anyone suggested he needed to certify the vessel he took it as an insult because he couldn't afford to undertake such a process. But there was an element of aberrant psychology, as a normal person would not take risks of that magnitude.
Would Stockton Rush have stuck his screwdriver into an electric receptacle denying the principles of electricity?
Why wasn't the submersible tethered to the main ship?
it never happened, it is total bullshit.......the whole story....total bullshit, like how the salvage team took all the bolts out of the 'recovered' front end...
@@larrybe2900 There is a risk and there is a hope, if it's 90% risk with 10% hope to survive I believe he wouldn't have done that, but if in "your mind" you guess it's 60% 40%, and you have that type of personality to risk for a great reward(Especially if you have nothing to lose which I can't confirm this about him) you may get bl;ind enough to do the job.
Me, an actual engineer with a license...would have said no before I even took a freshman level matsci class. Fuckin insane. What a conman.
Agreed. He had a business plan and the engineering was compromised to fit that plan.
I suspect towards the end the company was already in trouble and losing money but he was desperate to make it work.
It's crazy to me that they didn't really consider the amount the entire vessel compresses. James Cameron's Deep Sea Challenger would compress over 2 inches from all sides and is why the life support portion of the vessel was actually not hard connected to the rest of the vessel, it is suspended to count for the compression. Stockton really was just waaay too confident in the integrity of his submersible. They make them spheres because that's pretty much the best and only option.
Wow that's crazy it would compress 2 inches... I get it, but it's cool to think about.. The other one, Limited Faction or something, is another cool sub that has gone down 11,000 meters too.. Unreal
Rush said he couldn't get enough people into a sphere, so he'd never make money. Duh.
Hi Jeff. Re-read the transcript of the sub's comms carefully - the implosion was not the root cause. One interpretation of it is the sub purposefully had a high sink rate of -43m/min which, when they were getting closer to the bottom and dropped their planned weights to slow the sub down, they were surprised and puzzled by what didn't happen. Expecting the sub to dramatically slow down, they actually remarked "It's increasing". At this point they must have dropped the whole frame only to find that the sub went up "1/4 of what [they were] expecting". The sub had lost buoyancy, and it would have taken them about 10 hours to slowly rise to the surface like that (if they weren't using the thrusters to maintain the +6m/minute ascent). **That insidiously slow and progressive failure on the way down was the root cause, and potentially survivable if they could have kept ascending**. The sudden and catastrophic implosion on the slow ascent was not the main cause but was inevitable at some point when Nature had found the sub's extremely weakened system...
he shaped the company oceangate to his purposes, he drove out anyone with any experience and a safety mind set and hired kids out of school to get work done on the cheap and they would not challenge him in anyway so he had complete control over oceangate and therefore the sub too, he could do what ever he wanted and not be challenge from within, as he had driven anyone that could challenge him out already !!!
I wasn't aware this submersible even existed until the news about it being overdue. I did a quick search and as soon as I heard the hull was made of Carbon Fiber I knew it had imploded. Carbon fiber is strong under tension but under compression it is the epoxy bond taking all the strain. Carbon Fiber is just not the right material for this application.
100% agree. If you could put that same deep sea pressure on the inside of that CF and it'd be fine.
Exactly, carbon fiber is just what the name implies, fiber. Like a shoelace, it is great when you pull on the ends, putting it in tension, and is useless when you push on the ends, placing it in compression.
@@nunya3163 So why do these videos drone on about how if the carbon fiber layers were wound diagonally, it wouldn't have delaminated? The epoxy substrate would still have been doing the heavy lifting regardless of how the carbon fiber layers were wound.
@@schmingusss When it is applied in an interlocking weave, the fibers themselves are mechanically capturing other layers of the weave, making delamination more difficult. It would still suck at compression, but would have at least aided the epoxy a little bit.
Yes. Ironically, a pure epoxy hull might have stood more of a chance, as it would have had a better chance of curing without tiny little imperfections everywhere. Although at that thickness even that would have been hard to pull off.
I am enjoying hearing your perspective on this.
One thing that was so staggering to me with the (alleged) transcript that falls in line with your talking about herd mentality is
The topside basically hinted that rush should adjust velocity. But they knew "better" than to directly state it or push back on his refusal to slow down.
Because they knew Rush wouldnt listen.
And that was just the nail in the (imploded) sardine can - i mean coffin.
Yes, I think so also
@@jeffostroffwouldn’t the delayed ascent be of any significance? They had climbed only ten feet after three minutes.
Also, they had a secondary motor after the first had failed but there were crackling sounds supposedly from the aft.
Could the engine bay have been compromised with water which would have weighted and delayed the ascent?
@@Hilighted The entire body was likely saturated with water inside the carbon fibre. It was descending quickly because it had already failed in previous dives and was over ballast weight, it is possible he had engine failures too, which would have also reduced their ability to ascend.
It's completely crazy that they didn't abort immediately when the sink rate was too high.
@@littlekong7685I believe you are correct that the hull had been absorbing water in the non-catastrophic depths, but these fools didn't know it because they weren't interested in finding problems. They wore out their batteries and motors trying to lift a negatively buoyant vessel.
It wasn’t that they thought there were enough lifeboats for everyone, they just wanted to follow the minimum standard required at the time and like you also said, they really thought the Titanic WAS a lifeboat itself. They never imagined a scenario where more than 4 compartments would be compromised at the same time.
History taught them a powerful lesson, as 2 of the 3 ships in this class sank, with catastrophic loss of life.
An irony was the legally required evacuation drill was scheduled for that day but was delayed by the Captain as it was raining and didn’t want First Class complaining.
If they’d done the drill they’d have been shown the lifeboats were double benched to sit back to back and had plenty room for all onboard..
They didn't even do the minimum they did better - had 4 lifeboats more than required by law.
@@stevepirie8130wow, the captain had some issues eh? Didn’t do the drill, didn’t want to slow down in the iceberg field…good thing he went down with the ship…
They followed the standard and exceeded it by having 4 more lifeboats on board as required by law. Hardly something you could use as example for “Normalisation Of Deviance”. Not wise? Yes. Arrogant? Maybe. But the Titanic was built and equipped according to the standards of her time.
I so agree with you. I've been at a meeting before with around 200 people where before many were complaining about issues. When the opportunity came up for them to say something there was silence. The only person who had the guts to put their hand up to say what the issues are in front of everyone was me. The person taking the meeting after searched me down to shake my hand and thank me personally. After that the heads came up with the idea that rather go just up the chain of command where an issue can be lost or forgotten, a new system to report it both ways so report to us who were the lowest grades. Then a meeting with the heads each month. It was so successful that even our section heads use to report down the chain for better results which was a win for everyone. As such a working enviroment as with OceanGate. Someone so utterly incompetent running the organisation where people have died could never happen.
I think the only real-time monitoring of the hull he had were the ears and voices of the passengers who told him they heard alarming cracking sounds.
He had 1 acoustic sensor to hear subsonic crackling. Apparently it wasn't uncommon to hear some as they went down, but he figured he had a bigger threshold because the materials industry always underestimates ratings. But as others have pointed out, ANY crackling was basically a critical failure and sign of leaking and de-lamination, which he ignored and specifically ordered no checks into. On top of that, failure is a 0.004 second peak and drop, which is not enough time to do anything to mitigate it.
@@littlekong7685 I wonder if the sensor had backup power in the event of power loss.
I had a supervisor once that had a huge ego. He was a few weeks from leaving for another position and he wanted to let a contractor start a project before an approved contract and liability insurance were in effect. I raised a red flag and was told in no uncertain terms that I am still in charge around here. Was so glad to see that guy leave the company.
shame didnt imploded lol,those parasites are all the same
You were tested little fishy
The amount of video content this whole titan thing has created is astounding.
It feels like I've watched every single video about the subject in the last two weeks. Your's belong to the few that are really informational. Thank you and keep up the good work!
Arrogance runs in Stockton Rush's family. One of his ancestors was Robert Stockton. He was the Captain of USS Princeton, in 1843, when a tour of government dignitaries was on board, and one of the guns exploded during a demo, killing 6, including the Secretary of State. The gun was designed by Captain Stockton, to try to "one up" another gun, designed by John Ericsson, who later designed the USS Monitor.
Stockton Rush in his previous incarnation. Still hasn't learned apparently.
Sociopathy is inherited. Be careful who you breed with.
Thats a crazy story....
Jeff you are one of the only channels I can rely on for accurate and intelligent information. Thank you.
he is still milking this tragedy for views...such a great person.what about the 500 that drowned the same week? wrong color of skin or to poor to cover???
@@banjominer9682 He certainly is milking it for views. More speculation like the transcript post.
Things must be slow in the bathroom remodeling business.
Someone should tell Steve Magnante about the money to be made on Titan posts. He needs the views so bad he reposts videos packed with errors that he has been told about.
And the fact he can't even thank you shows what he's doing it for.
@@banjominer9682you don't have to watch
@@banjominer9682 You can cry for those 500 who drowned. Most people don't give a rat's ass. I sure don't...
(The smart ones saw how overloaded the boat was getting and didn't get onboard)
Another Excellent Presentation, and no loud music , and perfect speaking tone 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I was in a meeting and my boss was laying out a path forward for some software development. There were about 20 people in the meeting, and I stated I did not think her approach would work. She sarcastically told me to be more positive. I responded, I'm positive your approach will not work. The attendees all laughed, she got pissed. She didn't last long.
I last long in the bedroom
You were in the Bud Light marketing meeting?
Good for the company in dumping that type of person and "boss". I've worked for those types as well, they simply do not care if 2+2=4. Whats worse is how they got to be boss in the first place. That part is the scary part because we all knew they didn't qualify to be a boss yet got the position anyway. We all had determined the company was failing itself when it came to key people and their abilities.
The guy who runs Real Engineering was a composite designer who got his masters in composite failure prediction. His 'The Questionable Engineering of Oceangate' is worth watching if you want to understand some of the issues with composite vessels used under water.
He didn't even say anything knew; it doesn't take someone with a masters to tell you carbon fiber is not good under compression (the resin is basically all that is holding it together). I literally learned nothing watching that video, as he just said obvious stuff
A good video if you know nothing about it, but delamination and the poor ability of carbon fibre to resist external pressure has been mentioned *a lot* since this event happened
The video didn't contain new information and made several errors in its presentation about the incident.
He got several key details mixed up between the 1st and 2nd hull of the titan, which is pretty major error.
The manufacturing process he talks about was for the 1st hull not the 2nd, it was the 2nd hull which imploded
2:00 The loss of the Space shuttle Columbia is also a great example of normalization of deviance, they knew about the foam issue with the external tank since the first launch of the space shuttle, some foam always came off of the tank during launch (they called it popcorning) even though this very much wasn’t meant to happen and did pose a risk of damaging the shuttles heatshielding if hit, they assumed it wouldn’t cause a failure since it never had for years, *until Columbia launched into that blue January sky in 2003*
I was thinking same
You know I remember the day before that went up. I was washing my car and I thought to myself wow people have been taking them for granted going up in the space. When I saw it on the news the next day scary creepy feeling
@@carlobelmont5629 I though I never hear those three words again.
The Space Shuttle had serious problems with heat tile adhesive from the very beginning. They never were able to solve the problem. They just crossed their fingers and hoped nothing happened. The reason for the space shuttle was after Nixon and the GOP took over they told NASA to cut costs OR ELSE. Penny Wise and Pound Foolish.
Yep that’s just called a hard lesson learned. With titan so many things were ignored
Hey Jeff, here's an interesting paragraph from Composites Weekly, back in 2017:
"After the Titanic mission, Cyclops 2 will be off on a variety of other missions that, says Rush, will keep the craft busy for the rest of 2018. OceanGate, he says, will build at least four Cyclops 2 submersibles, and as many as 20, depending on demand. Rush says Cyclops 3, 4 and 5 are already on the drawing board, will target depths of 6,000m and likely will feature carbon fiber composite hulls."
Deathsub Rush had some ambitions...
Sure it may have known that communication could be lost, but in this situation there were serious issues in progress prior to the communication loss. The coastguard should have immediately been notified, but still would have been vain.
Seeing the PlayStation toggle he used to navigate the Titan would’ve been a red flag to me and being sealed inside that death trap and unable to exit the vessel until somebody let you out is crazy.These billionaires had more money than sense.
I just commented about that. No way would I step into something, going that deep into the water and you can't escape it. Gives me the chills!
@@julieanndiorio2286 me too just the thot of being trapped with no way out would freak me out lol
And no references. There is no evidence that the 3 paying customers contacted any of the previous divers….who all would have warned them.
In Stockton Rush's family tree back in the mid 1800's there was a ship's captain who was arrogant about demonstrating his new cannon for a group of dignitaries. The cannon was made incorrectly and it exploded and six people were killed.
Wow didn't know that, looks like it runs in family
@@carlobelmont5629 All dollars, no sense...
it never happened, it is total bullshit.......the whole story....total bullshit, like how the salvage team took all the bolts out of the 'recovered' front end...
Maybe he made the cannon out of hemp fiber and tree resin to save money and 'innovate'.
Stockton Rush's previous incarnation... still hasn't learned his lesson it seems.
Thanks Jeff for another interesting take on this tragedy. Your videos are always well though out and compelling.
Tests on the sub at the Deep Ocean Test Facility, part of the United States Naval Academy, also found that its carbon-fiber hull "showed signs of cyclic fatigue" at lower depths, according to GeekWire. OceanGate then had to scrap planned dives to the Titanic in 2018, 2019, and 2020, the report said.
The point you made at the end about the weaving technique makes perfect sense. I hadn't realized thats how they had made the CF part of the pressure chamber. I just found your videos recently but I'm really enjoying them.
CF?
@@K1OIK He's referring to the carbon fibre main part of the Titan.
Weaving provides more strength in tension, not compression. The sub hull would still delaminate & get crushed.
@@soots-stayingoutofthespotl5495 What did he do with the time he saved not typing arbon ibre ?
@@K1OIK Ha! Yeah.
"Normalization of deviance" sums up the current state of our society pretty well tbh. I'm actually a little surprised though, that transcript seems to be holding up. Considering that it first showed up on a single completely unknown channel that wasn't a nautical channel or anything like that, it seemed questionable, but it lines up with what the sub community supposedly had heard very early on and that sure looks like a chat window in that video with similar looking messages... they're even labelled [Top] and [Sub]
I love your profile lol
Deviants
*One thing to note about the "propped open fire doors" as depicted* @2:48 *is that those are held open my magnets that de energize during a fire alarm so the doors will then close and isolate each area*
Being propped open is normal as long as it's held open only by the magnets.
Those are tested monthly, typically, to make sure they close during fire test
I remember those doors in elementary school. Whenever they did fire drills all the doors would release and shut.
Hospitals have these doors in key areas. They automatically close off hallways when needed.
College basement I has a class in, power went out 1 time and the fire doors closed on their own. Loss of power obviously releases them, but I would think more happenings would too, like a fire alarm or even sprinklers deploying, or similar to sprinklers, heat over 150 degrees or whatever.
@@canislatrans8285 Any smoke on either side of the doors will cause them to close. Either triggered by the regular fire alarm or separate smoke sensors mounted just above the doors.
We have those doors in our condo, at every hallway and landing, the lobby, the pool, etc they're open all the time bc it's not a closed off area they only close when the alarm system is triggered magnetically to isolate areas from spreading smoke and fire I'd never seen them in a residential building but I guess ours is pretty state of the art we also have a sprinkler system inside our condo for fire I always wonder about those deploying in error 😂 like what exact conditions would cause those to activate? And do they activate in just the location of the fire? Or do they ALL go off? I just know the last time I was cleaning up on top of my recessed lighting, I dusted off the sprinkler cap (it's not like a big ugly commerical one, it's just a stainless steel cap thing about 3-4 inches from the top of the 9 ft ceiling in each room). 🤷🏽♀️ Imma have to look that up now I'm curious
I absolutely think Rush was narcissistic. I'm glad you pointed this out.
Dragging those ppl to their deaths was distasteful
Yes, next video I will visit the agreement he made them sign
Stockton Rush wanted to die, but he dragged 4 more people with him smh
They read and singed a contract, they paid more money than I make in three years….. they were not dragged, they were not forced.
Personally, I had to laugh at the Subway thing.
@@christjerky2320they were still most likely misled into feeling a false sense of security by trusting self proclaimed “professionals”
I appreciate your videos because of the well-researched, factual and comprehensible narrated topics. Above all, you speak a very understandable English in a pleasant speaking pace, which is easy to understand even for non-native English speakers.
One thing that also may have been a factor is they had other passengers on the boat that were supposed to dive in the sub and maybe they didn’t want to alarm any of their other paying customers even at the risk of death.
That's what I think.
From what's been reported, this was supposed to be the only dive to Titanic this year because of poor weather conditions. And no prospective passengers who was on the Polar Prince at that time has come forward in media. There was a bunch of the passengers family members though, and when authorities were alerted so would media be, and with them all critics like Cameron and Ballard.
makes sense
To me this statement is not cleat. Dont understand what you were conveying.
The British billionaire's wife and mum to their son was on board. Know one wanted to tell her she was a widows.
the last as this one video answered a lot of questions I had and even some I didn't. Thanks Mr.Jeff Osteroff, wil listen to more!
And why didn't a ship that was right there not hear/pick up the explosion?
Jeffostroff i love the way you share and explain accurate information as you receive it. I also love your cool calm and collective voice..great job on this video , and all others
Another great video! Please investigate the audio that purports to be the implosion....a small pop and then a really loud one.
Jeff, thank you for another amazing video! You really do your research and compile all of this helpful information for us. I look forward to your next videos!
My thought on the time it took for them to make the call for help was because the message telling topside on how fast they were returning was so slow. They calculated how long the return would have been at that speed. Then after that time passed they realized "ok they are not here yet with Kaput batteries" or dead a radio.
8 hours ascent time by my calculation
Apparently Rush's wife was on the mother ship. I suspect denial played a significant role in the delay.
Since she’s a co-conspirator it’s a bit more than that. Calling in the coast guard invites scrutiny and bad publicity so they waited until it was undeniable.
What an excellent analysis. I’m a doctor who appreciates your viewpoint and opinions regarding this mesmerizing tragedy. Also I’m obsessed with this and you’re a great resource of information. Thanks!!!!
Polar Prince waited 8 hours because the last communications the Titan sent stated they were returning to the surface at "quarter" rate. The ascent useally takes two hours, so 2 times 4 equals 8 hours.
That makes sense.
Also, one electrical system had failed. Maybe top thought that the other system had failed too and the sub would have no communication until it reached the surface.
@@pierreabbat6157 Exactly. They hoped and waited.
At the time, I figured catastrophic implosion was the most likely reason for loss of communication. I didn't know losing com was typical for other missions nor that there was one that spent 24 hours (!) because of a glitch. Interesting video Jeff.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
the US government kept quiet knowing their fate to hide the fact that joe biden was impeached...check it out
Before the navy announced the noise they detected I posted on a message board that I figured on implosion just based on the depth and how much could go wrong under those conditions.
Kinda like James Cameron said, it’s kinda normal to lose comms at times, but to lose comms and the radar location at the same time was an obvious sign especially for the group already doubting the carbon hull design
@@iillestrs2153 Cameron knew, he also wasn't keen on carbon fiber. At the time I only knew about comm loss. It's a bit of a shame that the expensive surface search was conducted when they would have known if everyone compared notes.
On the night before they sailed I was in a small bar in St John's and 6 of the paying customers (not the ones who were killed) were having drinks. I spoke to one of them extensively. I couldn't believe what they were about to do. I wonder how they feel now.
Wow, eerie thought, like the bar in The Perfect Storm
The dead only know one thing, It is better to be alive. I bet they are glad they didn't go on the dive.
@@jeffostroff It was very erie when I heard the news. I couldn't imagine being on the ship for a week or so under the circumstances.
Hope you weren’t drinking Budd Light.
@@TheTeaParty320 Iceberg beer from the Quidi Vidi Brewery
I just found your channel. Excellent break downs. You seem knowledgeable in quite a few different industries and I’ve especially enjoyed the submersible topic. I find myself interested in many things but only slightly knowledgeable in all of them lol enough to get myself in trouble! It has actually made finding a career I can see myself doing for 20+ years rather difficult to endure up to the point of retirement. Anyway, I just wanted to say I hope you continue down this path because level headedness has nearly become a thing of the past however, you have it down pat!
Jeff, thanks for another report on the Titan sub disaster. The normalization of deviance concept definitely occurred here. It pays to follow engineering rules, and not just in money.
More critical in diagonal winding is that each layer opposes the other in compression and tension.
What you pointed out. Only a humble big brain could do. What the actual f.
@@FlyWalker2233 Thank you that was a very nice statement. As an old man, I can go to bed and tell my wife.
I just noticed that the individual strands were converging on the hull from the machine without any weaving at all. I had thought they were pre weaved but I guess not. Wound like a bobbin of sewing thread!
The two 90 degree layers of fiber only work in tension (outward pressure like a propane tank). Never compression (inward pressure underwater)
.
@@electrictroy2010 Yes I agree carbon fiber itself is only good in tension. But as a composite, it can have very good compressive resistance.
1)You can pull a chain and you can not push one. If you encapsulate a chain in resin then you could push the chain.
2) If you laminate your fibers in one direction they will have good tension, and fair compression but poor shear between the fibers. Bi-directional weave transfers force resistance between each member, push on me pull on them. Probably why my tee shirt is made in a weft (90°) directions weave.
3) I think that we are in the same mindset and not crew this mission.
great job Jeff.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
I'm pretty sure a huge portion of us knew it was an implosion, I was simply choosing to have a positive outlook. As far as the novella "wreck of the titan" I think it may have been renamed after the Titanic to that name, originally being called Futility. But it was about a ship called the Titan that crashed on its maiden voyage, and it did release prior. I think. It's hard to know for sure how much was changed after the wreck to increase the sales. I had made a few comments about Futility when I heard the name titan and association with the Titanic. Why would you name your vessel after a Fiction book's ship that was destroyed the same way the titanic was. Almost like he was tempting fate. It's so weird how the man used safety as like it was granted by affiliation. He didn't abide by the very rules that made submersibles safe, but wanted to use that safety record to prove how safe his own craft was. So weird.
Hey thanks for this! Recognized your name from the series of videos you did on the “Surfside” catastrophe…and value your knowledgeable, objective analysis. I’ve always found your vids to be veracious and informative with “receipts” to back up what you say.
If the surface ship is using a “hydrophone” (9:22 in this video), why don’t they too hear the implosion sound like the Navy did?
It is possible they did pick it up
One possibility is the presence of deep sea inversion zones, where the temperature and density changes and forms a separating layer. It could be difficult to hear through theze
Jeff I really like your continuing updates on this stuff other places don't bother when new info comes out. Another aspect of Normalization of deviance and probably not the only one is what I call groupthink. "We've already been to that depth so there's no way an implosion can happen right" and losing communications is no big deal. add on top of that Stockton's conduct and thinking in this space and builds a pressure hull with carbon fiber titanium and this is the result.
What scares me is one of your valid points. I myself would have fell for it , but if Cameron had a problem , a light would come on , he went much deeper than that.
They didn't use the autoclave method either which has far fewer flaws. So instead of 50 compression cycles before imploding, maybe it would have been good for 500 cycles, but nobody knows for sure. The sub was designed to fail and they were delusional to think that they could detect it failing gracefully intead of catastrophically.
An autoclave is necessary. Even Formula One teams use enormous autoclaves to bake the carbon fiber despite the mind-boggling costs. Why? It's for the driver's safety. Well, i guess Stockton Rush didn't care about safety so why would he invest in an autoclave...
Im an engineering student and spacex fan. I immediately recognized the COPVs at the end of the video. Composite Overwrapped pressure vessels used to store helium to repressurize the fuel tanks as the fuel runs out of the rocket. Seeing the loop wrapping of Titan was shocking when we reafy know the right manufacturing method. Granted Titan is not wrapped with composites but actually is composite.
Yeah it was a carbon fiber hall x5… as an engineering student myself i can say that these are really meant for aircrafts and have not been proven to withstand immense pressures of the deep seas 😮
According to stockton, it was the right wrapping method because subs doesn't experience torsion moments. (his own words)
@@DKFX1Would shearing be an issue?
Remember the Narcissist's Prayer:
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
That sounds familiar. Like something a "stable genius" would say
I believe this was the 3rd dive to the Titanic. They had made dives at other locations but have not seen cited info as to depth. Adds to the total number of dives before the vessel would need to be retired. Now Captain Smith and Stockton Rush can converse on their mistakes.
I’m new to your channel - your delivery is great; you explain the content in a very easy to understand manner and your voice is ultra easy on the ears (you could easily work doing voiceovers). After watching numerous videos on the Titan’s construction, it is clear that it had a limited number of dives before it would implode - all of Stockton’s peers knew this. What I find so difficult to understand is why anyone on that vessel, aside from the very young man, would not only agree to dive in it, but pay quite a bit to do so, especially Paul-Henri Nargeolet, who was very knowledgeable about diving to great depths. What possessed him to believe the Titan would deliver him to and from the Titanic safely when it was well known within the “Titanic community” that Rush’s vessel was a disaster waiting to happen? And I can’t imagine that Hamish Harding, who had a degree from Cambridge in Natural Sciences and was an accomplished aviator surely would understand the need for safety compliances (that were dismissed as a type of road block for Rush) especially when a vessel is subjected to such enormous pressures. These men had to have played by the rules and standards of safety in order to have survived their adventurous lifestyles up until entering that death trap. I’m fairly certain that they were warned by others in their “deep dive”communities that the Titan wasn’t a good choice for their mode of transportation to view the Titanic, so with their knowledge and warnings, why did they proceed? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
all sacrificed
@@A55455In47I0n By whom? Why? Please explain.
@@MagicWandProductions idk, just a possibility
Rush wanted to be remembered for breaking the rules - and he got his wish.
Thank you. I really enjoy, listening to you. You are really interesting and knowledgeable. But you are also humble, mature, and respectful. I am a new subscriber to your channel, since you started talking about the Titan incident. From, Australia ☺ 👋
Jeff's numerous videos on the Surfside apartment building collapse were incredible.
Always fascinating and insightful. Thanks Jeff, well done
Thank you for your videos!
Regarding the speed of decent with the accident dive, I personally suspect that Stockton was attempting quicker decent dives. I am wondering if they were not able to release the ballast or the frame at all since ballast drops has been problematic in the past. All this is on top of a half ass built sub, that seemed to rely on safety margins (as in using all of the safety margins and more). He (Stockton) seemed to rely on reputations in the submersible and aviation industries to back up his designs. He never followed any of the design philosophy of either industry in providing a safe sub. Even the 787 which uses carbon fibre properly (aside from the many assembly errors, since fixed) used autoclave tech to assure proper curing of their fuselage. Stockton couldn’t be bothered. He used other company names for credibility, possibly illegally and his company is going to be sued out of existence because of his arrogance.
His company is already gone. Website taken down. Stockton was the CEO, and the cofounder is long gone. His wife and various employees are left. The deceased were quite wealthy, who knows if their families will sue.
The topside crew mentioned the descent, but the CEO responded everything is okay. He should have said “We seem to have extra weight. We shouldn’t be falling this fast. Possibly excess water onboard the sub.”
But he was an idiot.
The whole thing was a nightmare waiting to happen. Nothing was up to snuff including safety protocols. I truly believe that the occupants knew they were in trouble before the implosion which causes me anxiety.
It's really hard to be sad or somber on the death of a man who dragged others to what is practically suicide.
Your example of the bad circuit hit home. Just recently my new manager got after me for not doing something he expressly told me not to do at every one on one meeting this year with a “someone at your level should have done it anyway” 🤨
There were only two trips down to the titanic, the last one was trip three. However, there were many other small dives in various places. The whole thing was sad that Rush was so careless😔.
Not only did he use the wrong material for under water but he got it used 🤦.
Sadly, with great tragedy comes great lessons. RIP titan travelers
He got a deal on the carbon because the use-by date was expired. What material did he get used?
Me drunkin ole Daddy dived down
@@davidGrainger I believe it was the material he pulled out of your mom.
Untrue. Titan had visited the Titanic 14 times. This was the 3rd or 4th *this year*.
@@wibblywobblyidiotvision agree. I heard a report that it was Titan was on voyage #12 to the Titanic (12or 13 🤔). It definitely was not on its second voyage.
I absolutely love your channel. Found you durning the loss of Titan.. Thank you for your well throughout videos!!
@sophieh9387 Nobody thinks through speculation and makes it believable better than Jeff.
Subscribing. Never saw a YTuber which could explain things as well as you do! Keep the work up bud!!!
the bigger question is why did the military keep searching for several days when they knew the sub imploded and where the wreckage was
I was something to put on the news cycle beside how the Bidens have been getting rich selling out America for years.
Very good question. It didn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened. CNN loves the oxygen countdown though….
Money, it obviously was extremely expensive to conduct the search search. They where searching for extremely wealthy passengers, put two and two together now you know.
Because it wasn’t definite that it imploded until they found the debris. What if they had stopped searching and the sub was floating on the surface with them suffocating inside?
Nice presentation with some really interesting and new information.
Another outstanding video. Thank you.
If they were using hydrophones for communication the mothership would have definitely heard the implosion of titan. They probably didn’t contact the coast guard hoping by some miracle that the noise of the titan imploding was something else.
It doesn't really matter how you wrap the carbon fiber, it's like building a submarine out of rope. The material has a lot tensile strength but almost no compressive strength, the compressive strength comes from the resin it's bonded in.
Wow, you have some really interesting information! I subscribed!
Love your page…you do in depth research I love it
I agree with the "analysis paralysis" theory. Those folks were probably glued to their consoles praying for some sign the people were still alive, as long as possible.
8:05 that's disgusting.
Thanks for this, Jeff! Any updates coming on Champlain Tower?
Thanks for reiterating and expanding on the point you made in prior videos and I commented on in the last video, about the method of CF laminate winding. I think CF dive capsules could be made save, but there’s so much to it that it might be the expense that prevents it from ever being viable. Thinks like limited or even one time use dive cycles, and if too many “accidents” occur from ignoring cycle longevity, no one will want to be in one.
I'm glad to see someone address the way the hull was wound, I have left comments elsewhere asking if the "hoop" winding as you refer to it is considered "normal" for this application as I am not aware I have EVER seen carbon fibre wound that way and it seems substantially weaker to my mind. Any carbon fibre I have ever seen is always woven as the example on the tanks or more commonly with a "proper" weave like on car parts (ignoring forged carbon for now). I was actually extremely surprised to see Titan's hull was wound that way when I saw the very first clip of it.
I have a carbon fiber pole for surveying and carbon fiber bipods, and I've seen carbon fiber sitars in the process of being made. All these are made of woven carbon fiber, not wound in opposite helices. For more rigidity, one can place layers of woven cloth at 45° angles or at (90/φ)° angles.
Early uses of carbon fiber wound the fiber all one direction. Experimentation discovered that the crisscross pattern (like threads in a shirt) yields more strength
The thing that caught me was that Cameron said Titan lost comms and tracking. But the public was only told about loss of comms.
Given what Cameron said, the mother ship definitely knew the Titan was lost.
@jeffostroff the sub didn't actually get stuck down there for 24 hours, he simply suggested to the passengers that because they were so close to the bottom, they should sleep in the sub and drift down to wreckage, because they COULD just wait to hit the 24 hour mark for the mechanism holding the weights to dissolve. The issue was a battery was lost and going to keep them from being able to use the hydraulics to release the weights, but he ended up getting it to work, so they didn't end up sleeping in the sub. Unless that same situation happened twice and once they did sleep in there and the other time they didn't. Also don't think I'm taking up for the guy, I'm certainly not I think everything he did was beyond reprehensible. That's just not how the story went.
If you look at some of his ideas such as those self dissolving weights, that was actually a good idea.
Thanks for the content. Your voice is very soothing :)
Excellent and neutral commentary - especially I was concerned by the type of winding (woven vs hoop) - I totally agree (as a civil engineer)
Love this video. Although as a game designer/ systems dev/engineer, it’s hard to wrap my head around, because we have to deal with the fact that “deviation from normal IS normal. Normal IS deviance.” Aka…everything is always broken, unless it’s somehow not.
Thank you for the video, unfortunate and morbid as it demands.
Then you’re doing it wrong, the industry word for this is duct tape coding. If you want an efficient sorting function then there’s a list of all the possible sorts, their use cases and implementations, just like his example with the bathroom tiles.
Ok, but nobody dies if your video game has a bug.
@@marlo8850 I know what the industry expects. You misinterpreted my comment. I'm not talking about the FINAL code, or even the pre-production. I'm talking about reality, something you clearly know nothing about, child.
@@BenjaminFlagg_GameDesigner I don’t know in what reality deviation is the norm. I don’t see western buildings built with asbestos anymore because it’s not the norm and no one deviates from the norm in that sense. If you’re in a position where there can be repercussions then you will 100% not deviate from the norm because it was created for a reason. And if someone does like setting the center of Maß way too high in a ship and it sinks because of that, they will get sued. And not be celebrated for their innovative rule breaking like Stockton expected.
Also thanks for being insulting, that’s no way for an adult to behave. No need to deviate from the norm there.
3:54 They waited the extra two hours to call the Coast Guard because at their rate of ascent (as shown in the alleged transcript) that’s when they would be due to break surface. They didn’t call immediately at 9:45 because they didn’t want bad publicity and scrutiny if by some miracle the sub hadn’t imploded.
You are so interesting and informative, learning lots from yr channel. Thank you
This bathroom remodeler, explained better than the experts.Had narcissist bosses in the past, till things go wrong, then blame the little workers. Nice video 📹!
That's the thing the Polar Prince didn't just loose contact they also lost tracking at exactly the same time. Now that's real worrying. Even, if like other times they lost comms with Titan and it resurfaced in prior dives. How they could they have held out when tracking was lost at the same time is actually a massive concern. I mean, nothing could have been done to save the crew because the implosion was so sudden but on their part. Bad marks, bad, bad marks Polar Prince. Maybe they where acting on orders Stockton had given them prior?!
They would think nothing of the delay as there were so many previous problems, perhaps assuming that the batteries were down and the sub would surface from the release of the dissolvable balast bags.
My question is, what was the plan if the barge sank?
I always say, "Because Science". Thank you for bringing too light the facts behind this tragic case. Ur site keeps my brain "entertained", instead of "comatose".
Great work Jeff!!
Thanks Jeff, Safety first never felt more true.
Well said
well he'll certainly be remembered...
....as a moron.