I don't think there is a single ban, in any format be it singles or doubles, that comes close to be as funny as Chatter being banned in VGC because you could just teach your parrot to say slurs
My favorite weird ban is probably Gen 5 Moody Bidoof. People were genuinely ripping up Ubers with full Moody teams, which could include Bidoof. Moody was banned, and thus Bidoof's reign of terror was ended (although since Bidoof gets other abilities, you can still use Bidoof in Ubers, preserving the fragile Bidoof-centric Gen 5 Ubers metagame).
Moody is honestly still one of my favorite abilities in Pokemon and I do appreciate it getting a second chance in gen 8 even if it didn't stick around for very long
I think my favorite example of this happening was in Gen 8 NU. In Gen 8 NU the abilities Slush Rush & Snow Cloak are both banned. These are the only abilities that Alolan Sandshrew has access to and is therefore banned. This is insane.
Fun fact: sandslash line are illegal in gen 3,4 OU because of sand veil, and it’s also illegal in gen 5 OU despite having a new ability, that ability is sand rush which is a banned ability
Sandslash just couldn't get a break. It had such an interesting moveset as a possible Swords Dance sweeper, but the ability bans made it literally unusable.
13:10 “They generally try to avoid complex bans, But I don’t think the community cares.” Yes! This right here. It always annoys me how afraid Smogon Tiers are deathly afraid of the Slippery Slope of complex bans but the community wouldn’t really care. I’m glad someone said it
I feel like the vast majority of people is sane enough to know the difference between a Drizzleswim ban (Technically a "Complex ban") and something like "Mewtwo is now allowed in UU but only if its strongest move is Confusion" (A literally insane ban) Then you meet Smogon people who believe that's the slippery slope I've never met someone who doesn't constantly play Smogon even think that's a possibility, knowing how the basic structure of the system works, and that's because it's crazy
On the one hand, I sympathize with the idea that complex bans make the game harder to get into for new players, and if you want metagames to grow and be welcoming to new players, complex bans are best avoided whenever possible. On the other hand, when the simpler ban makes it so entire species of pokemon are banned despite not being a problem, I think that has too many of the same problems, and is a worthwhile reason to consider a more complex ban. A casual fan who loves Exploud or Sandslash and tries to goof around with them should be able to do so. I would rather see specific abilities banned on specific pokemon (ie "Soundproof is banned on Mr. Mime") than the ability banned as a whole just because it has 1 problematic combination. One ability banned on one pokemon doesn't feel like a more complex ban than that pokemon being banned, IMO.
@@parkerdixon-word6295 Personally, I think there's a lot of issues with how Smogon handles the current system, and this is just one of them, especially since "Complex" bans aren't... Really that complicated in any form they've existed, they can usually be described in one sentence
@@baxterbruce9827 I feel like a ban of the complexity of the example in the video "Mean Look and Baton Pass are banned on the same pokemon" is actually a good example of a ban that's pretty complex, and just feels like a deterrent to new players. The fact that a player will look at it and have difficulty understanding what the actual problem was *and know that they don't understand* is I think part of the problem. If a pokemon is banned, that says to uninformed players "Oh, this pokemon is busted. That makes sense, no big deal." If an ability is banned, that's similar, you can assume that the ability is just too good, even if the actual story is more complicated. One ability on one pokemon sends a similar, clear message. "This combo is too good." Two specific moves being allowed normally but not together *feels more complicated*, and feels like it will make new players bounce off of the format, even if they understand the ban. Being able to understand the rule isn't the obstacle, it's making it feel like you need to understand the intricacies behind the rule just to participate that deters people, even if that isn't factually true.
Next april fools they should ban every pokemon, and use the showdown avatars with randomly assigned stats, moves, abilities and have us use them, and force our current showdown avatars to be pokemon
It would be high effort but this would be very funny. Even do it for custom avatars so that it's blatently unfair for people with customs of broken mons lol
Before the drawn thumbnails I didn't like so much because I felt more iconic the previous ones, but now I love them, good job jim as always very good video
I do think a complex ban of Soundproof + Baton Pass would be good with the existing restrictions on Baton Pass for Gen 3 because the only Pokemon with access to that combination is the heinous criminal Mr. Mime.
"This prevents you from just spamming a single overpowered Pokemon, which wouldn't be very interesting." I think we all found the Furret-only tournament to be _incredibly_ interesting.
Cacnea was banned from Gen 3 OU not due to its father but due to a game-breaking bug where it would cause opposing Jimothy’s to be afflicted by Unnerve and Rattled simultaneously, causing the game to crash.
Smogon teirs are notoriously incompetent. If you dont play their way they get mad and ban strats they deem problematic while keeping strats they prefer.
what's the logic behind no complex bans? No baton pass and soundproof on the same pokemon seems easy enough to understand. It's definitely simpler than some of the restrictions they've put on baton pass.
A lot of people don't understand that "Baby Pokémon"≠"first stage" and just call any Pokémon that is at its lowest possible evolutionary stage a baby, even when it's not technically a Baby Pokémon. (For anyone unaware, Baby Pokémon are a subcategory of first-stage Pokémon that are defined primarily by two things: they are the lowest possible evolutionary stage of a Pokémon that can breed; and they, themselves, can't breed. So, Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Magby, Elekid, Smoochum, Togepi, Tyrogue, Azurill, Wynaut, Riolu, Munchlax, Mime Jr., Budew, Chingling, Bonsly, Happiny, Mantyke, and Toxel. Ironically, Vullaby, despite wearing a diaper and having a name that is literally partly made of the word "baby", is not a Baby Pokémon. Neither is Flabébé, despite _also_ having "baby" (in French) as part of its name.)
What I learned from this video is that they don't want to deal with the problem and instead they're just balancing the different scenes around the problem (Baton pass)
I always loved Cramorant being banned in Balanced Hackmons,it makes sense once you look into it but seeing it on thw banlist among obviously broken mons is hilarious
Here's a potential video topic - How would Gen 3's competitive scene fare if the Gen had access to the "Legacy Evolutions" featured in later generations? For the sake if argument, let's say that Sylveon ends up a Normal type instead of opening the can of worms that is introducing the Fairy type to Gen 3. Not counting regional variants, this would introduce 29 Pokémon into the metagame: 22 from Gen 4, 1 from Gen 6, 3 from Legends Arceus and 3 from Gen 9.
This is already opening a giant can of worms going into all kinds of weird hypotheticals, no matter how you look at it. I'm not sure why you brought up "Sylveon" of all things to port over due to its Fairy-typing when there are easier examples to list, like idk Dudunsparce, Farigiraf, Alolan Exeggutor, etc.
@breloommaster12 Ah, sure, but I'm asking about all of the non-regional variant legacy evolutions, and of those 29 Pokémon, only one of them touches on a new type, so if Jimothy were to consider touching upon all 29 Pokémon, I wanted to make talking about 1 of them easier.
@@KorytheMaril I mean if you were to include the likes of Magnezone, Tangrowth, Dudunsparce, Kleavor, Wyrdeer, Ursaluna, "Sylveon?", "Togekiss?", etc. aka the cross gen evos with already existing pre-evolutions, I don't see why you wouldn't include the regional variants with also pre-existing base forms, such as Alolan Raichu, Alolan Exeggutor, Alolan Marowak, Hisuian Typhlosion, etc. Excluding the regionals from the criteria seems both arbitrary and a missed opportunity, but maybe don't include the Fairy-type in this discussion cos that's kinda whack.
i'd never thought about it before but you're totally right about a soundproof + baton pass complex ban, it would solve all the problems pretty easily (as long as we also banned the speed boost + baton pass combo) while preserving a lot of fun strategies, if someone wants to use soundproof electrode as a calm mind receiver or mr mime as zapdos agil pass receiver for special offense that could be really cool. even exploud would be interesting as a dragon dance reciever (or swords dance if you don't wanna rely on smeargle), a set like return, shadow ball, brick break, substitute could be very threatening while being immune to skarmory so it would fit nicely on those brute force physical offense teams (the ones that spam mons like curse boom lax and band metagross)
Metagame balancing is deeply interesting, the dance you have to do sometimes of trying to ban one option that pushes a strategy over the edge as opposed to a "Nuke it from orbit" ban where you just destroy the strategy entirely. All of this collateral damage to me says that Baton Pass is the better ban, presumably why it was the ban target in later generations, despite being a cool move and idea that I do kinda wish was available for fooling around with. It's a move you wish was available as an option, but you wish it was just a fringe meme strat, rather than actually busted.
@@macewindu5195 this reminds me of when i tried to run 6 level 1 luvdiscs with 0ev stats and only one move: splash. (in pure hackmons) unfortunately my opponent just forfeited
I'm pretty sure that if any of the pokemon featured in this video had legitimate use outside of the strategy that caused them to get banned, Smogon would have found a way to a complex ban to preserve them. The whole reason Mr Mime is banned is because it was a higher priority to preserve Baton Pass for its fair users like Zapdos or Celebi, than allowing someone to use Mr Mime because its their favorite Pokemon. Smogon not liking complex bans is not generally false, but there are multiple examples of them creating them to preserve something viewed important to the tier. If this didn't cause gen 5 to be this messed up, we might still have complex bans today.
i want a metagame with maybe the only rule being only on pokemon per team. like AG but with that rule applying to all pokemon, not just not tradeable ones
Sorry to post here, But I noticed in gen 3 OU when substitute is used against protect, it triggers protect, in which the next turn trying to use protect it may fail for being the second use of it. if that makes sense. which gives a major advantage for the mon behind the sub next turn.
idk how it changes between gens but in gen 3 ou protect will only not trigger if the opponent switches out, so using sub, dragon dance or spikes into protect will waste the protect turn like you said. it's pretty strong but you have to make hard reads to get that advantage (particularly into the main protect user skarmory which could roar you out), and protect gets its own advantage since if the opponent switches you get to click it again which guarantees two leftovers heals
I've always considered old, permanent weather setting to be far more broken than a slight evasion boost. As long as you can't stack it with anything more than a bright Powder, the odds of hitting the opponent are still greatly in your favor and it being weather based gives you other ways to play around it when permanent weather isn't a factor. I do wish that Smogon would do complex bans more often because they are genuinely one the best ways to avoid this sort of nasty collateral damage. Mind you, they did something interesting with gen 9's sleep ban and gen 5's gem ban where those bans only effect OU. This is an even better solution because it means that someone using a powerful Pokemon to abuse a commonly available strategy isn't going to effect all those much less broken examples.
The baton pass clause is interesting in gen 2. We have a thing in 35 pokes where baton pass is allowed without having any stat boosting moves or abilities. Since it’s a the only pivoting move some mons get This made some people used sweet veil dachsbun one month because well baked body was illegal with baton pass
I still say that the Showdown Client was a modified simulator should have just removed the evasion effect on Sandveil rather than ban the ability. It's within their power and could be limited to a rule that is merely in effect on the ranked matches. (So people testing mechanics can still accurately test the ability.) This world for other abilities and move effects as well.
Shoutouts to Diglett for getting Arena Trap banned in Gen 6 because it turns out that ability is busted even on a baby Pokemon. Also the other drawback with using Whirlwind Skarmory in Gen 3 was that due to breeding mechanics, Skarmory cannot learn both Whirlwind and Drill Peck. If Skarmory runs Whirlwind then it's best Flying STAB becomes Hidden Power, which is pretty bad.
This is one of the reasons why I don't like competitive. Instead of banning combos, they (most of the time) ban the Pokémon entirely. Like, isn't it embarassing that TRAPINCH is banned because it has Arena Trap? What would Trapinch even gain from that??? I understand nobody would use such Pokémon in competitive, but I still think it kills the building team creativity.
Personally, I think it takes a lot for a minor ability like Sand Veil to be banable. Permanent weather is just such an incredibly format warping mechanic that it gives this frankly mundane ability so many more opportunities to jeopardize a match.
The early houndstone ban was so unbelievably stupid. It's a dogwater pokemon with one op move. They could've just banned the move. And they had to later anyway because basculegion was introduced and both had the move and was strong as hell
Some other notable examples include Sand Veil also being banned in Gen 4. All the mons mentioned in the video that got booted in Gen 3 OU cause of the Sand Veil ban was also banned in Gen 4, but it notably means that even if Garchomp isn't broken on its own mertis, it (alongside its entire evolution line) would've been banned anyways cause that was the only ability Chomp had back in Gen 4. This was also the case in Gen 5 until the release of its hidden ability Rough Skin; it was until then that Chomp can finally be a legal OU mon. A far more recent example of this type of weird ban is the recent banning of Snow Cloak in Gen 4. Froslass was being an obnoxious gnat with Snow Cloak as its ability in Abomasnow Hail teams, as it functioned similar to how Sand Veil got banned. Froslass' only ability in Gen 4 is Snow Cloak, and since it is a UUBL mon, it is effectively an Uber mon without actually being an Uber mon. Glaceon unfortunately got hit in the crossfire, since its only ability is also Snow Cloak, making it banned in the OU tier, although it is still perfectly legal to use in UU and NU.
Hey, thanks for uploading this after the election. The results are one thing but seeing everyone be sad about them has been hurting me, so seeing this helped
Back in the netbattle days i had an amazing baton pass team that eventually ended with Cradily sweeping. Too bad it is not OU viable anymore. It is a pretty cool mon.
I wonder if Electrode could've contributed to Soundproof being banned as a whole, rather than just the combination of it and Baton Pass. Hisuian Electrode is actually in ZUBL in Gen 9, and I assume that's due to the combination of Substitute, Leech Seed and Soundproof. With one of the best Speed stats in the entire history of the franchise, H-Electrode can set Substitute on reaction when its previous one fades away, and Soundproof directly nullifies the most splashable counterplay to this strategy. Although Kantonian Electrode can't learn Leech Seed, it can learn Toxic and hold Leftovers, potentially allowing for a lesser version of this type of stalling. I don't know if that's powerful enough in Gen 3 OU to be considered when writing the banlist, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I think it's weird that the rule-setters try to avoid complex bans rather than seeing them as the norm. I understand that it might make it simpler to know what is and isn't allowed, but I think the rules should aim to allow as many Pokemon to be played as possible (Hell, if it was up to me, I'd get Pokemon Showdown to add other abilities to Cacturne etc so that they can be used - but at least with that one I can understand wanting to be faithful to the cartridges)
The only sensible ban I can possibly imagine in competitive pokemon was the unanimous ban on Iron Mugulus. Anything else is simply unconstitutional. #Armaldo2028
Nice video, mister Cool, but you made one key mistake. Loudred was not banned because of Soundproof, but for committing several crimes against the nation of Bulgaria
Here's something what about a tournament where you can only used this pokemon and ones from past gens like Dragonite because of the ban of wrap and a partial trapping move from rby
I feel like just banning soundproof and baton pass on the same set would work for banning it. The video says Mr Mine was too good at continuing baton pass, not receiving it. And the suction cups guy doesn’t have baton pass and thus can’t be a replacement for that
All the Sand Veil only Pokemon are still legal with it and Sandstorm in general in lower tiers of Gen 3. I get theres an opportunity cost and no Smooth Rock yet (not to mention being unavailable to play most of the time), but one turn of a miss could make or break a game. It really feels like its one troll cheesing a moderator with it away from getting a complex ban.
TBF these luck based abilities by themselves can be pretty debatable. Without any stacking over something like Bright Powder the opponent still has a higher chance of hitting you than not and the lack of permanent weather gives it even more counter play
In VGC, Sash is broken. VGC games are very quick so a pokemon surviving a single attack is enough to be game breaking. Basically nearly every pokemon would have Sash without item clause
Yeah as a singles player that statement was so funny to me lmao. But it makes sense in doubles. Less switches so less chance to break sash w hazards, and every turn has inherently more value so surviving an ohko nets u more than in singles
all we need to do is to bribe mambospif with a horse council hoodie and he will let them out of jail no question asked. afther all he did let iron mugilus out ;)
jimothycool.com
Horse Council merch available until end of December.
I don't think there is a single ban, in any format be it singles or doubles, that comes close to be as funny as Chatter being banned in VGC because you could just teach your parrot to say slurs
Cofagrigus got banned from global trades unless it had a nickname because 'Cofagrigus' contains a bad word.
And unfortunately due to dupes clause, a full Unown team to call your opponent a bad word isn't allowed either.
“oh you’re live on Twitch”
For me, its spelling certain gamer words with the letter seals in Platinum.
@androsp9105 Probopass and Froslass too.
my girlfriend made fun of me for watching someone named “Jimothy Cool”
Make fun of her for looking down on free knowledge and entertainment. Shame on her.
*my ex girlfriend
can confirm im the girlfriend
I think youre gonna need to break it off
that is not your girlfriend. that is a horse from the horse council
I genuinely had no idea Exploud was in prison for crimes they did not commit, this is an outrage folks.
Unfortunately Exploud doesn't get access to Outrage until Gen 4.
@@anonymousfog501How is that possible? This is an Outrage.
I think we may need to cause an Uproar about this.
@lucaslennan3356 Unfortunately anonymousfog501 doesn't get access to outrage until get 6
My favorite weird ban is probably Gen 5 Moody Bidoof. People were genuinely ripping up Ubers with full Moody teams, which could include Bidoof. Moody was banned, and thus Bidoof's reign of terror was ended (although since Bidoof gets other abilities, you can still use Bidoof in Ubers, preserving the fragile Bidoof-centric Gen 5 Ubers metagame).
Moody is honestly still one of my favorite abilities in Pokemon and I do appreciate it getting a second chance in gen 8 even if it didn't stick around for very long
Remember that they almost considered banning Bidoof because of it...
That shows how broken it is
I think my favorite example of this happening was in Gen 8 NU. In Gen 8 NU the abilities Slush Rush & Snow Cloak are both banned. These are the only abilities that Alolan Sandshrew has access to and is therefore banned. This is insane.
We all know Alolan Sandshrew deserved it. Alolan Sandshrew knows what it did.
Was that part of all the bans and unbans that led to arctozolt having one of the most psychotic tiering histories across a single generation?
Fun fact: sandslash line are illegal in gen 3,4 OU because of sand veil, and it’s also illegal in gen 5 OU despite having a new ability, that ability is sand rush which is a banned ability
Sandslash is catching all the strays
Sandslash just couldn't get a break. It had such an interesting moveset as a possible Swords Dance sweeper, but the ability bans made it literally unusable.
Don't be fooled by those dangerous Pokémon, even Wynaut is a criminal mastermind.
The sad Sandshrew art in this thumbnail is top notch, props to whoever drew/made it
Of course they banned Cacnea
He was out standing in his field
Shoutout to pokemon colosseum for having a trainer who’s whole team is just double team sand veil
Competitive pokemon
Yeah.
just like any good competitive game
needs rules to keep things sensible.
without a
good ruleset,
13:10 “They generally try to avoid complex bans, But I don’t think the community cares.”
Yes! This right here. It always annoys me how afraid Smogon Tiers are deathly afraid of the Slippery Slope of complex bans but the community wouldn’t really care.
I’m glad someone said it
I feel like the vast majority of people is sane enough to know the difference between a Drizzleswim ban (Technically a "Complex ban") and something like "Mewtwo is now allowed in UU but only if its strongest move is Confusion" (A literally insane ban)
Then you meet Smogon people who believe that's the slippery slope
I've never met someone who doesn't constantly play Smogon even think that's a possibility, knowing how the basic structure of the system works, and that's because it's crazy
On the one hand, I sympathize with the idea that complex bans make the game harder to get into for new players, and if you want metagames to grow and be welcoming to new players, complex bans are best avoided whenever possible.
On the other hand, when the simpler ban makes it so entire species of pokemon are banned despite not being a problem, I think that has too many of the same problems, and is a worthwhile reason to consider a more complex ban. A casual fan who loves Exploud or Sandslash and tries to goof around with them should be able to do so. I would rather see specific abilities banned on specific pokemon (ie "Soundproof is banned on Mr. Mime") than the ability banned as a whole just because it has 1 problematic combination. One ability banned on one pokemon doesn't feel like a more complex ban than that pokemon being banned, IMO.
@@parkerdixon-word6295 Personally, I think there's a lot of issues with how Smogon handles the current system, and this is just one of them, especially since "Complex" bans aren't... Really that complicated in any form they've existed, they can usually be described in one sentence
@@baxterbruce9827 I feel like a ban of the complexity of the example in the video "Mean Look and Baton Pass are banned on the same pokemon" is actually a good example of a ban that's pretty complex, and just feels like a deterrent to new players.
The fact that a player will look at it and have difficulty understanding what the actual problem was *and know that they don't understand* is I think part of the problem.
If a pokemon is banned, that says to uninformed players "Oh, this pokemon is busted. That makes sense, no big deal." If an ability is banned, that's similar, you can assume that the ability is just too good, even if the actual story is more complicated. One ability on one pokemon sends a similar, clear message. "This combo is too good."
Two specific moves being allowed normally but not together *feels more complicated*, and feels like it will make new players bounce off of the format, even if they understand the ban. Being able to understand the rule isn't the obstacle, it's making it feel like you need to understand the intricacies behind the rule just to participate that deters people, even if that isn't factually true.
they banned ferrothorn after they found his old twitter account
Next april fools they should ban every pokemon, and use the showdown avatars with randomly assigned stats, moves, abilities and have us use them, and force our current showdown avatars to be pokemon
AnonymousFog sent out Miku-Flying!
It would be high effort but this would be very funny. Even do it for custom avatars so that it's blatently unfair for people with customs of broken mons lol
Before the drawn thumbnails I didn't like so much because I felt more iconic the previous ones, but now I love them, good job jim as always very good video
I'm honestly not sold on why complex bans are avoided so heavily. I feel like they're a necessity, and could help keep a lot of gens healthy
"Without a good ruleset, it would be pure Chaos." Miraidon and Shadow Rider laugh in AG.
I do think a complex ban of Soundproof + Baton Pass would be good with the existing restrictions on Baton Pass for Gen 3 because the only Pokemon with access to that combination is the heinous criminal Mr. Mime.
"This prevents you from just spamming a single overpowered Pokemon, which wouldn't be very interesting."
I think we all found the Furret-only tournament to be _incredibly_ interesting.
Cacnea was banned from Gen 3 OU not due to its father but due to a game-breaking bug where it would cause opposing Jimothy’s to be afflicted by Unnerve and Rattled simultaneously, causing the game to crash.
Smogon teirs are notoriously incompetent. If you dont play their way they get mad and ban strats they deem problematic while keeping strats they prefer.
what's the logic behind no complex bans? No baton pass and soundproof on the same pokemon seems easy enough to understand. It's definitely simpler than some of the restrictions they've put on baton pass.
If you watch his Mr. Mime video, they've banned Soundproof by itself before, and Baton Pass was still overwhelming.
I'm definitely with ABR, just nuke stat pass all together. Drypass and subpass only. But the current ruleset is pretty good.
2:08 Spoiler: the red one won
I got intrigued when you mentioned a second baby Pokémon and was sorly disappointed when Cacnea showed up. I thought you meant actual Baby Pokémon.
A lot of people don't understand that "Baby Pokémon"≠"first stage" and just call any Pokémon that is at its lowest possible evolutionary stage a baby, even when it's not technically a Baby Pokémon.
(For anyone unaware, Baby Pokémon are a subcategory of first-stage Pokémon that are defined primarily by two things: they are the lowest possible evolutionary stage of a Pokémon that can breed; and they, themselves, can't breed. So, Pichu, Cleffa, Igglybuff, Magby, Elekid, Smoochum, Togepi, Tyrogue, Azurill, Wynaut, Riolu, Munchlax, Mime Jr., Budew, Chingling, Bonsly, Happiny, Mantyke, and Toxel. Ironically, Vullaby, despite wearing a diaper and having a name that is literally partly made of the word "baby", is not a Baby Pokémon. Neither is Flabébé, despite _also_ having "baby" (in French) as part of its name.)
I didnt think i could dislike a pronounciation more than Groudon, but then I heard you say Baton Pass... *shakes fist*
Competitive Pokémon, just like any good competitive game, needs rules to keep things sensible.
Without a good ruleset, it would be pure chaos
Dominated by the most overpowered strategies in the game.
Official competitive tournaments have plenty of rules in place to keep things interesting and varied.
Like the species clause,
A rule that bans you from having more than one of the same Pokémon on a team.
I can't wait to see the end of this story arc with our fellow horse, Magcargo Vs Horsea for horse suprecmacy across the world.
Let us hope the people of the country make the right decision in this election
What I learned from this video is that they don't want to deal with the problem and instead they're just balancing the different scenes around the problem (Baton pass)
I always loved Cramorant being banned in Balanced Hackmons,it makes sense once you look into it but seeing it on thw banlist among obviously broken mons is hilarious
Here's a potential video topic - How would Gen 3's competitive scene fare if the Gen had access to the "Legacy Evolutions" featured in later generations? For the sake if argument, let's say that Sylveon ends up a Normal type instead of opening the can of worms that is introducing the Fairy type to Gen 3.
Not counting regional variants, this would introduce 29 Pokémon into the metagame: 22 from Gen 4, 1 from Gen 6, 3 from Legends Arceus and 3 from Gen 9.
This is already opening a giant can of worms going into all kinds of weird hypotheticals, no matter how you look at it. I'm not sure why you brought up "Sylveon" of all things to port over due to its Fairy-typing when there are easier examples to list, like idk Dudunsparce, Farigiraf, Alolan Exeggutor, etc.
@breloommaster12 Ah, sure, but I'm asking about all of the non-regional variant legacy evolutions, and of those 29 Pokémon, only one of them touches on a new type, so if Jimothy were to consider touching upon all 29 Pokémon, I wanted to make talking about 1 of them easier.
@@KorytheMaril I mean if you were to include the likes of Magnezone, Tangrowth, Dudunsparce, Kleavor, Wyrdeer, Ursaluna, "Sylveon?", "Togekiss?", etc. aka the cross gen evos with already existing pre-evolutions, I don't see why you wouldn't include the regional variants with also pre-existing base forms, such as Alolan Raichu, Alolan Exeggutor, Alolan Marowak, Hisuian Typhlosion, etc.
Excluding the regionals from the criteria seems both arbitrary and a missed opportunity, but maybe don't include the Fairy-type in this discussion cos that's kinda whack.
I think it would be too much for a video and even then I think gen 3 might look alot different with mons like ursaluna and anihilape @@breloommaster12
i'd never thought about it before but you're totally right about a soundproof + baton pass complex ban, it would solve all the problems pretty easily (as long as we also banned the speed boost + baton pass combo) while preserving a lot of fun strategies, if someone wants to use soundproof electrode as a calm mind receiver or mr mime as zapdos agil pass receiver for special offense that could be really cool. even exploud would be interesting as a dragon dance reciever (or swords dance if you don't wanna rely on smeargle), a set like return, shadow ball, brick break, substitute could be very threatening while being immune to skarmory so it would fit nicely on those brute force physical offense teams (the ones that spam mons like curse boom lax and band metagross)
Singles are basically ppl coping hard by putting in a lot of restriction to make it still playable
Metagame balancing is deeply interesting, the dance you have to do sometimes of trying to ban one option that pushes a strategy over the edge as opposed to a "Nuke it from orbit" ban where you just destroy the strategy entirely. All of this collateral damage to me says that Baton Pass is the better ban, presumably why it was the ban target in later generations, despite being a cool move and idea that I do kinda wish was available for fooling around with. It's a move you wish was available as an option, but you wish it was just a fringe meme strat, rather than actually busted.
Anarchy for the win let me choice scarf sleep every Pokemon
And let me use 6 exeggutors, end the tyranny of the species clause
LMAO
protect + flame orb meta
@@macewindu5195 this reminds me of when i tried to run 6 level 1 luvdiscs with 0ev stats and only one move: splash. (in pure hackmons)
unfortunately my opponent just forfeited
and let me have a turn 1001 game
I'm pretty sure that if any of the pokemon featured in this video had legitimate use outside of the strategy that caused them to get banned, Smogon would have found a way to a complex ban to preserve them. The whole reason Mr Mime is banned is because it was a higher priority to preserve Baton Pass for its fair users like Zapdos or Celebi, than allowing someone to use Mr Mime because its their favorite Pokemon.
Smogon not liking complex bans is not generally false, but there are multiple examples of them creating them to preserve something viewed important to the tier. If this didn't cause gen 5 to be this messed up, we might still have complex bans today.
Jimothy, I just want to tell you I appreciate your use of OSRS music in your videos. Very cool.
i want a metagame with maybe the only rule being only on pokemon per team. like AG but with that rule applying to all pokemon, not just not tradeable ones
Shouldn't ban pokemon it makes for some very boring battles with the same pokemon. Either make clauses or play around it
I really enjoy listening to you talk while I do other things like chores, cooking, and gaming
Sorry to post here, But I noticed in gen 3 OU when substitute is used against protect, it triggers protect, in which the next turn trying to use protect it may fail for being the second use of it. if that makes sense. which gives a major advantage for the mon behind the sub next turn.
Isn't protect fail chance increased regardless of whether or not it blocks anything anyway? Or am I dumb
If protect fails, the next turn Will be always succesful@@LukeA471
@@LukeA471 no
idk how it changes between gens but in gen 3 ou protect will only not trigger if the opponent switches out, so using sub, dragon dance or spikes into protect will waste the protect turn like you said. it's pretty strong but you have to make hard reads to get that advantage (particularly into the main protect user skarmory which could roar you out), and protect gets its own advantage since if the opponent switches you get to click it again which guarantees two leftovers heals
Funnily enough, the Sandshrew line actually got banned a second time in gen 5 since their second ability was the also banned sand rush
I've always considered old, permanent weather setting to be far more broken than a slight evasion boost. As long as you can't stack it with anything more than a bright Powder, the odds of hitting the opponent are still greatly in your favor and it being weather based gives you other ways to play around it when permanent weather isn't a factor. I do wish that Smogon would do complex bans more often because they are genuinely one the best ways to avoid this sort of nasty collateral damage. Mind you, they did something interesting with gen 9's sleep ban and gen 5's gem ban where those bans only effect OU. This is an even better solution because it means that someone using a powerful Pokemon to abuse a commonly available strategy isn't going to effect all those much less broken examples.
Never knew sleep clause was in thing in Stadium. That feels so ahead of its time.
The baton pass clause is interesting in gen 2.
We have a thing in 35 pokes where baton pass is allowed without having any stat boosting moves or abilities. Since it’s a the only pivoting move some mons get
This made some people used sweet veil dachsbun one month because well baked body was illegal with baton pass
ADV OU has had to go through so much crazy shit for the sole reason of not banning one move
I still say that the Showdown Client was a modified simulator should have just removed the evasion effect on Sandveil rather than ban the ability. It's within their power and could be limited to a rule that is merely in effect on the ranked matches. (So people testing mechanics can still accurately test the ability.)
This world for other abilities and move effects as well.
Shoutouts to Diglett for getting Arena Trap banned in Gen 6 because it turns out that ability is busted even on a baby Pokemon.
Also the other drawback with using Whirlwind Skarmory in Gen 3 was that due to breeding mechanics, Skarmory cannot learn both Whirlwind and Drill Peck. If Skarmory runs Whirlwind then it's best Flying STAB becomes Hidden Power, which is pretty bad.
This is one of the reasons why I don't like competitive.
Instead of banning combos, they (most of the time) ban the Pokémon entirely.
Like, isn't it embarassing that TRAPINCH is banned because it has Arena Trap?
What would Trapinch even gain from that???
I understand nobody would use such Pokémon in competitive, but I still think it kills the building team creativity.
Personally, I think it takes a lot for a minor ability like Sand Veil to be banable. Permanent weather is just such an incredibly format warping mechanic that it gives this frankly mundane ability so many more opportunities to jeopardize a match.
Trapinch has actually had Hyper Cutter since Gen 3, so it's never been banned. You can get non-Arena Trap Trapinch.
Kind of funny how doubles prevents these problems
No natural Rock Type has ever been in Ubers, yet Whismur, Cacnea, and Wynaut have. That is interesting to think about.
Another really sad ban was shed tail. If anything it was a problem because of cyclizar. Orthworm+Sceptile were fine. They didn't have to do this.
So many Jim uploads this week! We are truly blessed
The early houndstone ban was so unbelievably stupid. It's a dogwater pokemon with one op move. They could've just banned the move. And they had to later anyway because basculegion was introduced and both had the move and was strong as hell
Some other notable examples include Sand Veil also being banned in Gen 4. All the mons mentioned in the video that got booted in Gen 3 OU cause of the Sand Veil ban was also banned in Gen 4, but it notably means that even if Garchomp isn't broken on its own mertis, it (alongside its entire evolution line) would've been banned anyways cause that was the only ability Chomp had back in Gen 4. This was also the case in Gen 5 until the release of its hidden ability Rough Skin; it was until then that Chomp can finally be a legal OU mon.
A far more recent example of this type of weird ban is the recent banning of Snow Cloak in Gen 4. Froslass was being an obnoxious gnat with Snow Cloak as its ability in Abomasnow Hail teams, as it functioned similar to how Sand Veil got banned. Froslass' only ability in Gen 4 is Snow Cloak, and since it is a UUBL mon, it is effectively an Uber mon without actually being an Uber mon. Glaceon unfortunately got hit in the crossfire, since its only ability is also Snow Cloak, making it banned in the OU tier, although it is still perfectly legal to use in UU and NU.
Hey, thanks for uploading this after the election. The results are one thing but seeing everyone be sad about them has been hurting me, so seeing this helped
“Ummm yes this baby fire fox is ruining my day”-Aurdcono
i would love to see a restricted metagame to OU, like imagine how interesting would be.
No wonder you talk so much about gen 3 competitive, it was so interesting.
Back in the netbattle days i had an amazing baton pass team that eventually ended with Cradily sweeping. Too bad it is not OU viable anymore. It is a pretty cool mon.
Unrelated to the video, but i like your RUclips icon being Klaymen. I love NeverHood.
Mr. Mime looks so guilty in its gen 3 sprite, its ban was inevitable
I wonder if Electrode could've contributed to Soundproof being banned as a whole, rather than just the combination of it and Baton Pass. Hisuian Electrode is actually in ZUBL in Gen 9, and I assume that's due to the combination of Substitute, Leech Seed and Soundproof. With one of the best Speed stats in the entire history of the franchise, H-Electrode can set Substitute on reaction when its previous one fades away, and Soundproof directly nullifies the most splashable counterplay to this strategy. Although Kantonian Electrode can't learn Leech Seed, it can learn Toxic and hold Leftovers, potentially allowing for a lesser version of this type of stalling. I don't know if that's powerful enough in Gen 3 OU to be considered when writing the banlist, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I think it's weird that the rule-setters try to avoid complex bans rather than seeing them as the norm.
I understand that it might make it simpler to know what is and isn't allowed, but I think the rules should aim to allow as many Pokemon to be played as possible
(Hell, if it was up to me, I'd get Pokemon Showdown to add other abilities to Cacturne etc so that they can be used - but at least with that one I can understand wanting to be faithful to the cartridges)
Umbreon with mean look + baton pass was super busted in gen 4 when it got access to yawn.
Jimothy cool can also do his own bans
7:36 ABR is a criminal
Great video, very informative. But I really just came here to complement the thumbnail that answers its own question by way of pun.
Klaymen from The Neverhood as a PFP on RUclips goes hard. Keep it forever
All this time sandshrew was flipping us off and I just noticed
Magcargo is gonna absolutely win. There's no way anyone in their right mind would vote for Horsea.
jimothy on a LAGENDARY run these past few days
The only sensible ban I can possibly imagine in competitive pokemon was the unanimous ban on Iron Mugulus. Anything else is simply unconstitutional.
#Armaldo2028
fire thumbnail to add to the jimothy cool universe
THe maplestory music went HARD
These games are fundamentally poorly designed for competitive play
Nice video, mister Cool, but you made one key mistake. Loudred was not banned because of Soundproof, but for committing several crimes against the nation of Bulgaria
Here's something what about a tournament where you can only used this pokemon and ones from past gens like Dragonite because of the ban of wrap and a partial trapping move from rby
Sandshrew-Alola is NUBL in gen8 I believe, since it has snow cloack and slush rush and snow cloack is banned from OU and Slush Rush is banned from NU
watching that snorlax hit most of the the double edges made me upset
I'd be interested in seeing a complex ban on Mr.Mime to preserve Loudred for the reasons you gave.
I feel bad for Cacnea, Wynaut, and Sandshrew being banned.
They're just little guys.
I feel like just banning soundproof and baton pass on the same set would work for banning it. The video says Mr Mine was too good at continuing baton pass, not receiving it. And the suction cups guy doesn’t have baton pass and thus can’t be a replacement for that
All the Sand Veil only Pokemon are still legal with it and Sandstorm in general in lower tiers of Gen 3. I get theres an opportunity cost and no Smooth Rock yet (not to mention being unavailable to play most of the time), but one turn of a miss could make or break a game. It really feels like its one troll cheesing a moderator with it away from getting a complex ban.
Thanks Doc
TBF these luck based abilities by themselves can be pretty debatable. Without any stacking over something like Bright Powder the opponent still has a higher chance of hitting you than not and the lack of permanent weather gives it even more counter play
Jimothy work rate is crazy
Ah, this explains why i never see exploud in the revival tournies
"Why ban them?"
"Wynaut?"
"Why ban them?"
Wynaut?
why is the first part of the video in 360p for no reason you had me thinking my internet was dying
Never ask Jim Cool about the ADV cacturne ban
I would provide Exploud with an Escape Rope, but Pokémon can’t use those items
jimothy slimothy i love ur channel keep up the good work 👍😁
"promote verity and prevent broken items like sash from being spammed" ??????????
In VGC, Sash is broken. VGC games are very quick so a pokemon surviving a single attack is enough to be game breaking. Basically nearly every pokemon would have Sash without item clause
Yeah as a singles player that statement was so funny to me lmao. But it makes sense in doubles. Less switches so less chance to break sash w hazards, and every turn has inherently more value so surviving an ohko nets u more than in singles
@@cctz_1 there's also just less hazards all around.
So many mons framed for PokeCrimes they never PokeCommitted... Where is the justice in the PokeWorld?
insert comment with transcript of video here
all we need to do is to bribe mambospif with a horse council hoodie and he will let them out of jail no question asked. afther all he did let iron mugilus out ;)
I want a species addendum- I wanna use 2 of a kind for shinanigen reasons! Not like 2 Lando just 2 Electrode.
If elected, Horsea will pardon Mr. Mime for his crimes against the public; this can not come to pass. Vote Magcargo
"Competitive Pokemon." - Jimothy Cool. 2024.
An infinite situation.