Thermostatic Single Pipe Steam Radiator Vent (TRV): A Solution Looking For A Problem?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Danfoss and Macon (Tunstall) both make excellent products that are well supported in the industry.
One thing I forgot to mention: you should not use any thermostatic control on a radiator located in the same room as the thermostat! It won't end well!
Really appreciate this video, nice to see the cross section and hear a solid description on function.
Glad it was helpful!
We need you Mr. Gordon, I am in the trade for 42 years. every time I see yours videos I learn something. You are the best. Thank you.
Informative video. Could be helpful to link all the products you've went over . What's the name of the angle vent with the adjustable knob?
Are you referring to a Vent Rite #1?
Got a new video on that right now.
@@gordonschweizer5154 just watched and subscribed. Thanks for the help!
@@jerrylee2326 You are quite welcome!
apart from introducing complexity and more technology... what else is this setup offering than a standard adjustable vent ? like this one Durst adjustable Air Vent, which only costs a 10$ where as this solution which is somewhere elase 100$
That was the point of the video.
Most of the time, a TRV is not needed.
However, a cheap air vent is a cheap air vent.
I would consider getting a better quality vents, such as Hoffmans, Gortons, or Vent Rites.
I would also make sure the main vents on the big pipes down in the basement are the best they can be, such as Gortons.
@@gordonschweizer5154 thanks for the clarification...new home owner figuring things out here. Appreciate the community support you are providing here.
I just bought the danfoss but it doesn't seem to be working. My pressure is only 1 lb . I still get to much heat. I have it on two radiators and they both are set at 1. They still get hot all the way thru. The room is about 77 degrees . What am I doing incorrectly ?
I would check the vacuum breaker.
See if you can get a socket or a box wrench on it and get it out of the valve body.
I'd remove the valve from the radiator first.
Now, put your mouth/lips over the unit and alternate blow and suck and see if you can get the ball to seat properly.
Once you get it to stop passing air in one direction, re-install it in the valve body.
See if that stops your overheating.
If it doesn't, call Danfoss tech support or their local rep. or return the unit and get a Macon TRV from Tunstall.
@@gordonschweizer5154 Thanks! I will give it a try.
@@aglasserm1679 Actually, try this; When you take the unit off the radiator, shut the actuator fully. Then blow into the unit thru the 1/8 connection. You should not be able to. But you should then be able to suck air out.
If both of these actions are true, the unit should work and there is another problem.
@@gordonschweizer5154 Ok I tried this and it worked like that. What else can be the problem.
@@aglasserm1679 I see. Try threading the units back into the radiators with the actuators still closed.
The Raditors should not heat during the next "on" cycle.
Thank you for taking the time to show us about steam vents
You are quite welcome. I hope the airplane noise and chirping birds weren't too distracting!
thank you so much for making these videos Gordon. I have learned so much about steam systems from you.
As soon as I graduate high school I am moving up north to get into the steam trade!
You make my heart sing!
@@gordonschweizer5154 why do you need an apprentice in 2 years?
@@oldhandyluke I might indeed.
I feel his passion
A bit confusing, the more complicated types do not seem as practical and it looks like the only way to “watch” for any damage it when doesn’t work properly anymore
You have a trv to your left 1/8” white knob bottom controller what is brand model number it seems lighter weight and easy to install have a link?
I believe you may be referring to a Macon brand. Reach out to Tunstall Associates
Thank you for the video. where can i find danfoss one. i am in New jersey and cant seem to find it. Thank you
It's a special order item.
Are you sure you need one?
Is the vacuum breaker more to prevent over heating or to stop the radiator from retaining water due to the potential vacuum and eventually flooding the system if you have a lot of these in the system.
I think it's mainly to reduce the potential for overheating.
If one has a lot of these on a system, they may be overused?
Pretty good explanation of operation. They either work or they just are not the right control.
I’ve only used these on hot water and that’s hit or miss.
Only so much you can do.......
Thanks! I think their proper application is very limited. But, as you say, when every pitfall is accounted for, they do work.
For hot water thermostatics, I've had better customer satisfaction.
Especially on gravity conversions
Gordon Schweizer
On gravities I see your point. Big old pipes, slow flow, room pulls heat out, Control hits mark, valve closes. You even get heat anticipation if you get it nailed just right.
@@bauhnguefyische667 I forgot to mention they work on two-pipe steam pretty well, too. Years ago, I installed 40 some thermostatics on the two pipe steam raditors at the Bromoseltzer Tower in Baltimore.
Saved the customer so much in steam useage, the project paid for itself in less than two seasons.
Gordon Schweizer
No doubt, it’s cheaper to heat up hot water.
Thnx for the great video and the time to explain this very well. Are there any vents that are smart capable like ZWave or ZigBee and can that somehow be applied to automate?
I am sorry, but I do not know.
Try asking at HeatingHelp.com.
@ardiplaku7822 did you ever find a vent that's compatible with a smart TRV? I'm looking to replace a couple vents in our upstairs bedrooms and want to be able to control the temperature more accurately
So my mom turn the heat up in the basement to 85 I’m on the top floor and I am suffering with this steam radiator heat. I want to buy these but when I’m not sure because you said that the thing would not work if the heat is on constantly. I think because the thermostat is in the basement and it’s cold down there that the basement will never reach 85 and the damn thing will never go off. Could you help or explain what to do in my situation. And she said she not turning it off until Spring so please help.
Yes, you have a situation.
If the boiler seldom shuts down, your overheating radiator can't "take a breath" or suck in air. It is the air in a radiator that keeps out the steam (unless your shut off valve to your radiator is working, but unless that is brand new, it will still allow steam to pass, and you're right back where you were, only now you might have water hammer and spitting vents to boot).
Once the steam has pushed out the air in your radiator, it's "game over" as far as comfortable heating is concerned.
The TRV will only delay the enviable.
One good option might be to make sure the system's pressure is as low as it can be and still get the downstairs radiators hot.
In order to do that, you might have your mom call in a true steam expert to look over your whole system. They are hard to find, sad to say. There are too many folks who claim steam expertise without true knowledge and the humility to understand that no one knows everything.
Any pressure in the system above 2 pounds per square inch is wasted energy and adds to your mom's fuel bill and your discomfort.
Ask the tech before they come out if they understand that steam PRESSURE does NOT heat the building. It is the almost magical "latent" or "hidden" heat in the steam itself that heats the radiators. Any pressure is only needed to force the air out through the vents. If you get some other BS response, cross that name off the list and move on. Ask them if they have read the book "The Lost Art Of Steam Heating" or anything by Dan Holahan. If yes, then there is hope for that person... and for you.
If your room is overheating, gently remind your mom that that is wasted energy and that is adding to your mom's fuel bill.
Put in those terms, your mom might be willing to entertain the cost of a service visit and start to get you some relief.
@@gordonschweizer5154 Thank You hopefully we can have the conversation soon but this weekend I bought new replacement valves in hopes I can just shut of a couple of radiators manually. And I even made a layered box that fit over the top of one radiator that is lined with aluminum foil. It’s not the best solution but it was a good one because I can finally move around in real time instead of slow motion. I wish I could share a picture. My mom is a stubborn landlord and this building is over a 100 years old at this point I’m desperate.
Basement is never a good place for thermostat.
Thank you so much for the video and yes, I do have a few questions. I have a radiator with the Macon 1/8" Threaded One-Pipe Steam Straight Valve Assembly with EVO-28 Operator, and I have had a few issues namely trying to find substitute parts. My daughter 6, broke the air vent off hers and me way over 6, broke the actuator on mine right in time for winter. I have been searching for replacement parts but have nearly resigned myself to the prospect of buying an entire apparatus and scavenging the parts from it. Do I need to buy the entire thing for $160+ or can I buy the few parts somewhere? Ok thank you for any help you can give.
You should be able to buy a new actuator to replace your broken one.
Perhaps reach out to Tunstall Assoc.
for further assistance.
As to the broken air vent, were you able to remove it completely from the valve body? If so, vertical air vents are also available separately.
Thank you for explaining this! I have been looking for a way to add a "smart" Wifi TRV to my single pipe steam, and it looks like with a body unit from one of the two options you've showed will allow me to replace the control component with the screw-on smart operator.
Hi, are you in the US? I can't find the actual TRV valve , only the smart valves that are ready to go for European market- trying to also add a smart TRV by replacing the control component in the TRV in Gordon's video. Thanks!
I have one pipe steam oil fire system. The radiator in my bedroom is huge!! 14 columns and is the highest and hottest radiator. Its the 2nd to last on the return. Bedroom isn't that big and it gets very hot in the room. I have Maid o mist in now. It calls for a C and you suggested in a pervious post to use a #5. I like it but my wife says its gets to hot and then she opens the widows. Would any of the above units work in my situation or just keep using the window method? You know what they say. Happy wife Happy life. Even in sleep and steam heat. LOL Thanks. Rich C
Thank you for your story and feed-back.
So, if I understand, you have now a #5 M-o-M on that monster radiator and it's still a bit too hot?
You could try a #4. That's the smallest they make.
If that is too low, then the single-pipe TRV might be a good bet.
It's going to take a bit of tweaking/trial & error to make it all work.
Do you have control of the pressure of the steam?
The sizing chart supplied by Gorton & M-o-M is a nonsense and well neigh useless.
There are MUCH better vent balancing charts available thru HeatingHelp.con
@@gordonschweizer5154 not sure what you mean control of the pressure. I just put in a new Weil gold boiler and a new Gorton #2 that you suggested in a previous post.
@@richconstantino8485 Sorry, I got you mixed up with someone else who said they didn't have access to the basement and was talking about #6 vents.
Anyway, for the record, what is your pressure setting? Low as possible, I hope.
@@gordonschweizer5154 Yes at 1.and it came set at that, not like 9 from one of your videos. LOL
Why would the size of the radiator make a difference between using the ventrite vs the danfoss? I have an office building that has several danfoss's and they work very weill. The 3rd floor has an apartment that has 2 radiators with only non-adjustable vents. I would rather put the ventrite because 1, it is much cheaper and 2 it is much lighter. Thanks for you videos, much appreciated.
Thank you very much for your support & comments!
Radiators installed back in the day were sized large because, back then, folks kept their windows open lest they succumb to the "Spanish" flu.
By venting the mains in the basement thoroughly, and then venting the now oversized radiator very slowly, *in most cases* , the TRV is unnecessary.
Or so it seems to me.
Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly, the Vent Rite #1 can be an excellent substitute for the TRV.
@@gordonschweizer5154 Thanks for the quick response. I've heard that they didn't mind opening windows because fuel was so much cheaper but the Spanish flu is interesting to hear. Surely makes sense, especially what we've all been through. Thanks again.
@@CaresforAll Thanks!
Back then, they also had this concept of indoor air being "devitrized" air. It was called the "National Poison".
It really was the City Gas or Manufactured Gas that was used for gas lighting.
It was made by gasifying coal.
It was mostly carbon monoxide, which can burn!
And make you unalive.
Once gas companies started using "natural" gas (methane), talk of devitrized air went away and people started closing their windows a bit more.
@@gordonschweizer5154 Interesting info. Unalive is not good! Thanks.
Thank you Gordon,
We live in a condominium and our bedroom gets too hot. The Macon controls would work in our case. Our radiator is inside a radiator cover. What were the model numbers of the last 2 boxes that you opened? One had the part that threads into the radiator and includes the air vent, a vacuum breaker, and a valve. The last box contains the remote temperature actuator with a capillary tube.
Rich R, Baltimore
What model vent do you have on the radiator now?
@@gordonschweizer5154 The radiator has a Hoffman No. 1A vent. You may suggest equivalent Honeywell components as they be less expensive. I'll add that this 3-story building is 100 years old, if that's relevant. Thank you!
I would suggest not starting out with a TRV.
Radiator covers can make using a TRV not work unless it is installed properly.
My point in making this video is that TRVs are usually not needed.
Also, Hoffman 1As are notoriously hard to adjust at their lowest settings.
I would strongly suggest to start with a Vent Rite #1 radiator vent and cut a hole in the cover to allow ease of adjustment.
Most Vent Rite #1s can be turned way down to control over-heating.
Where in Baltimore, may I ask?
@@gordonschweizer5154 Thank you. I replaced a Hoffman 1A with a Vent-Rite Model No. 1, as you suggested and it's better.
It seems to me that thermostatic vent controls are a partial solution (even without radiator covers) because they only work at the start of the steam cycle. If the room is cold at the beginning as the steam comes on from the boiler, the vent will open. Once the radiator is vented during that steam cycle, the vent can close as the room heats but the radiator will continue to heat the room as long as the steam stays on.
Shutting off the radiator in some rooms and leaving it on in other rooms sort of works for us.
We live near the JHU Homewood campus.