A First Century Liturgy . . .
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- Опубликовано: 24 ноя 2024
- In this episode of THE FIRST 500 YEARS, we join Daniel and Steven as they reconstruct a first century Eucharist gathering. Walk among the Apostles and first followers of Jesus as they gathered for the “breaking of the bread.” What did the building look like? What day of the week was it? What was the order of events? These questions, and many others, are addressed here!
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I was trained by the Institute of Christ the King as a seminarian, and prayed the Office in common daily. The Church traditionally still reckons days from sundown to sundown. There are no Vespers for Saturday, as they are the first Vespers for Sunday, and all major feasts have a first Vespers. It was hard to convince my roommates that we could break the fasts of a vigil after Vespers.
The priests of the Institute still wash their hands before vesting for Mass.
This is fascinating history of the early liturgy. Thank you so much for this!
Proud protestant here but this is a super interesting discussion and relevant to all Christians regardless of persuasion thank you for sharing this and having this conversation loved every minute of your discussion.
Really glad you enjoyed it! Welcome to our little YT community 🙂
@@TheCatholicBrothers I really value and respect Catholic insight even if I don't always agree you all very often make some really interesting and Godly content so thanks again!
Really interesting and knowledgeable video! Keep up the good work.
Praise be JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY! Blessed be VIRGIN MARY Most Holy!
Wow. I felt like I could see/imagine that earliest liturgy just as you described it (the art really helped!). It certainly wasn't a scholarly presentation, but it was very clear to me how what you described drew upon not just Scripture but the true cultural and historical context of New Testament times and places. Yes, the mass has developed, but you've demonstrated that the core is still there 2000 yrs later in the Catholic mass and traditional Catholic church buildings. Very well done!
It is good to be reminded that the Temple imagery is all through the New Testament writings.
And that we who have eaten and drunk at the Eucharistic Table are His witnesses today, *because* we have met Our Savior and Our Sacrifice there.
Thanks very much! Very informative and entertaining!
Thank you for this teaching, as it really makes it easy to visualize the early practices of the eucharistic liturgy.
The people sitting around Him must be the Apostles.
Jesus only consecrated the bread and wine He doesn't worship Himself .
The actual worship was said by the Jews in the Temple in Jerusalem. Jewish Passover. His Death Prayers.
Going through all your videos, great stuff guys. You should write a book :)
I read an excerpt from a Catholic Priest that Judas had the seat of honor to Jesus’s right and John the Apostle Jesus loved was to his left and get this Simon Peter was in the chair for the Servant (the very last chair at the table). Simon Peter was the one chosen to help the servants and what not. So the Jesus was showing Peter that to lead was to be last. Servant leadership.
I’d be interested to see if you guys have been able to dig anything like that up
Dear Brian, I had heard that, too, and it was a conclusion drawn from Peter appearing to be the last of the disciples to have his feet washed (John 13:6-11) and his having to signal to John to ask who was going to betray Jesus (John 13:23-24).
5:40 The Triclinium. I learned this from Episode 49 of Fulton Sheen's Life is Worth Living, titled "The Psychoanalytic Couch". Although he called it "Triclinia".
Very much needed. Thank you!
Another fascinating account of early Christianity. Thanks, brothers!
First class content. I would love to hear more on the symbolism of the Eighth Day. An Orthodox friend is very focused on the theme of the Eighth Day in Eastern Christianity.
Thanks Donal!
Check out our episode on “Why we don’t worship on the Sabbath”
There’s a little bit of eighth day stuff in there.
I still love listening to this 2 years later. Are you going to do a medieval liturgy commentary?
Our next episode (coming out in a few days,) is “A Second Century Mass.” we’ll be doing one of these for every century that we cover. 😃
Glad I found your channel. This is informative, scholarly, yet not above anyones realm of understanding.
Where were y’all when I converted to Catholicism 18 yrs ago?!
Glad to have you aboard, Ryan!
18 years ago I had just received my driver’s license and was probably wreaking havoc around my hometown 😂
Brilliant
This channel is great; keep it up. Thank you for this information
Thanks for tuning in, Joseph! 👍🏻
Great work!
Been waiting for a video like this!!!
The Traditional Latin Mass is sometimes referred to as the Mass of Gregory the Great. I'd recommend you Google the First Apology of Justin Martyr. He describes the Mass as it was celebrated in Rome circa 150AD.
We address Justin’s entire account in our two episodes on second century liturgy. Be sure to check that one out
@@TheCatholicBrothers Link?
@@DrGero15
ruclips.net/video/PgFZ6nZQSHc/видео.htmlsi=t2Tq0qFEsvZJPp4T
@@DrGero15
ruclips.net/video/6kOboLYVEeE/видео.htmlsi=Bqh5vKbje-uQezm9
@@TheCatholicBrothers Thanks!
Great content. The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity is a book related to this topic that IMHO should be a staple in every Catholic household.
I was looking for something like this, thank you!
This was amazing. Thank you so much for this.
I agree wholeheartedly. 😊
Surely a celebration of Mass “in the round” goes back to the very earliest celebrations in the triclinium.
Count from the first day of the work week to the seventh day. Our work week starts on Monday, and our day of rest is the seventh day, Sunday.
At no time does God say a named day - always day seven of the work week.
Please, please read Thomas Adams, "The Earliest Christian Meeting Places: Almost Exclusively Houses?" The book is a much needed corrective to the mid-20th century, hippie-based "analysis" of Christian meals and worship.
Knowing more about the Early Church helped me crawl out of the “Rad Trad” hole because it helped me realise that Vatican II wasn’t trying to modernise the liturgy, they were trying to bring it back to its patristic (Early Church) roots. Sadly both rad trads and progressives misinterpret Vatican II as a radical sugarcoating and modernisation of the liturgy, hence the divisive polemics in Roman Catholic Church currently especially in Western countries.
Agreed.
The ideologues on both sides of the aisle were part of the post-conciliar, implementation break down, too. The current state of the Missal leaves much to be desired, as a result, and our personal hope is that in the next generation or so, we’ll see a 4th edition of the New Missal from Rome, where cues from the Ordinariate will be taken, and we’ll see a restoration of things like the ancient collects, the original Roman offertory, the prayers at the foot of the altar, ceremonial rubrics, and exclusive use of the ancient, Roman canon on Sunday Masses. It would go a very long way toward healing the liturgical divisions and restoring the Patristic character and dignity of our rite.
If restricting the growth of the TLM is step one, there *has* to be a step two that at least gets the Novus Ordo back in to more obvious continuity with the old rite’s content and ethos.
But, we’ll see.
I don’t think the trad Catholics will accept anything other than a return to the 62 missal, or in extreme trad circles, to the mass of Pius Vth. There are also issues with documents from V2 that they won’t accept.
Learning more about the Early Church stopped me from falling into the Rad Trad hole!
Learning about the early church made me return Home to the Orthodox Church
You haven’t read The documenta of Vatican II, have you? Because The centuries old Mass was never prohibited, on the contrary, the new mass was allowed. What is outragious is priests dressed as clowns , priests singing rap ,I mean , now there is no reverence , that’s what it lacks the Holy Mass in many churches because the problem is that they don’t believe God is in the Holy Host , once it’s properly consacrated with the exact words . Thats the problem . If you really believed that, you would kneel and entered so in the Church.
Both Pope Peter and Jesus Christ were at the very first one!
Check out an Eastern Orthodox liturgy sometime - basically unchanged since 400 AD. You can find several recordings on RUclips. In the Orthodox liturgy, the priest or deacon still chants "The Doors! The Doors!" just before the serving of holy communion. This is a tradition from back when the church was in the catacombs and there was a need to ensure the doors were barred to ensure they did not get caught by the Romans for practicing Christianity. The Orthodox church still chants this in every divine liturgy till this day. The Ancient Church is still here, you don't have to go very far to look for it.
My entire family on my wife’s side is Greek Orthodox. I’ve been to more DL’s than I can count. The DL of Chrysostom in its current form dates to about the 9th century, with most of its elements in place by the 5th and 6th. The traditional Roman Rite (extraordinary Form or usus antiquor) dates to about the same time, with parts of it (like the Roman Canon) being even older. The Byzantine Catholics, especially the Ruthenians and Ukrainians also still celebrate the DL’s of Chrysostom, St Basil, and St James.
Lastly, that’s not why the priest says “the doors the doors!” It doesn’t date to the catacombs (the catacombs are in Rome, not in the East 🙂). It dates back to the catechumenate… This was the time in the DL when catechumens had to leave because the Eucharistic offering was about to be made and only the baptized were allowed to witness it and participate. All things being equal, the ancient Christians would actually be scandalized to see that, not only do Orthodox churches not dismiss the catechumens at this time anymore, but they broadcast the Eucharistic sacrifice on RUclips for the whole world to see. (It should be noted here that it is a very common practice in Catholicism for catechumens to still be dismissed at this time of the Mass).
I’m not saying any of this to discredit or argue against Orthodoxy; I’m just countering your (hidden) point that Orthodoxy is the ancient church, untouched, and Catholicism is not.
It was very different from today.
Very good job. This is what everyone needs. To understand the origins of the christian liturgies in the jewish and in the grecorroman contexts.
Any church that does not take holy eucharist is guilty of disobedient to Jesus!
Correction Holy Eucharist
This was such an informative video. Do you plan on making a book on this topic?
Thanks for the comment Joseph- glad you enjoyed it! Currently we have no plans to expand this research into a book, but don’t give us any ideas 😉
Thanks for tuning in!
Explain this _protestants_
What? I just agree. No thing to explain.
Saw this video on Instagram. I really liked how you both really gave a clear depiction of the early church and connected it back to Orthodox/Catholic belief.
Do you both go to TLM, Novus Ordo or Eastern rite Divine Liturgy?
Looking forward to more episodes, hope God blesses your channel ☦️
Hey thanks for tuning in! So, we actually attend all of those. Our home parish holds a very beautiful Novus Ordo, plus a weekly TLM. My (Steven) wife is Greek, so a Byzantine DL and Eastern Spirituality is certainly also an integral part of our faith walk as a family.
Thanks again for the kind words and we’re really glad you enjoyed the content!
Any book recommendations regarding the subject of the discussion?
Hi Matiyas, thanks for listening! Yes, here are a few to start with:
Dennis Smith, From Symposium to Eucharist: the Banquet in the Early Christian World.
Andrew McGowen, Ancient Christian Worship.
Paul F Bradshaw, Eucharistic Origins.
@@TheCatholicBrothers Thanks a lot. Keep up the good work.
Is there any sources you can share to read about this topic?
Pre Vat II Breviaries are designed around sunset as the start of the day's cycle. The loss of the communion rail and kneeler is a terrible loss. Even Lutherans and Episcopalians use the historic church configuration. Also, challah (bread) and wine both are blessed when the candles are lit at the start of sabbos.
The 1000 years of the Church of Rome was really Orthodox.
is it possible that Rev 1 v 13 reflects an experience of St John in a Liturgy?
It very well could. That there is references to temple liturgy throughout Revelation is undeniable. That later generations of Christians read liturgy into the text is also true. In that particular verse, the veil in the true holy of holies in the heavenly realm is open and Christ the High Priest is presented. Hebrews 12 would agree that Christ the High Priest is present with us in worship. Some scholars often read a lot of liturgy into the Revelation text as a whole due to St. John saying that he was in the spirit “on the Lord’s day” ( 1:10). We assume this means Sunday and therefore we assume the worship gathering to be the correct context.
However, it could be that John is referencing Jeremiah 46:10 where the eschatological “day of the Lord” is in mind. John has been transported to “that day” by the Spirit. In this sense, it may not be a reference to “Sunday” at all. Most liturgical scholars will tell you that the visions are difficult to reconcile with first century worship as they are too ecstatic and peculiar to John.
Even so, it is likely that there are bits and pieces throughout the book that do in fact reflect a first century worship setting (Rev. 5; 7:9-14; 8:1-4 for example)
@@TheCatholicBrothers Thanks that is very interesting
THERE’LL BE SOME ASSUMPTIONS ALONG THE WAY. Such a Catholic thing to say. Make sure you say it quietly.
So, I love how they speak about this with certainty, but I haven't heard any archaeological or written references. So, is this all speculation? Don't get me wrong, I think this is plausible in some instances, but I think emphasis needs to be made here that this is speculation on, perhaps, one type of first century liturgy.
Any thoughts of why orthodox has a certain and doors separating the alter from the people. Then the catholics have an open alter ? I find that interesting because I thought that the resurrection did away with the partition.
The partitions that you are referring to as having been done away with in Christ are those of the **outer courts**: between Jew and Gentile, Sick and healthy, male and female, and Levites and people. And, so when we gather for worship under the new covenant, we are all present in the sanctuary of the renewed Temple. But the sanctuary of the Temple still has a distinction between the holy place and the most holy place (ie tabernacle). Originally, in the first identifiable church buildings, there was a partition (whether by steps or by rail) separating the Presbyterium (where the priests were seated around the altar) from the nave. These partitions are seen archaeologically for church buildings going back to even the early 4th century (prior to the 4th century, Christians were primarily worshipping in converted villas or rented spaces).
Catholics today have an unobstructed view of the altar, but never an “open altar.” There is always some sort of distinction in the architecture between altar and nave, whether by communion rail or steps. In medieval western churches there was also erected a “rood” which could be construed as a western corollary to the Eastern iconostasis. In the Eastern Churches, over time, their rails became more and more elaborately decorated with images of Christ and the saints (esp after Nicaea II). Eventually it became a wall with doors for the mechanics of the liturgy to continue unabated. The iconostasis style developed with reference to the ancient Temple (royal gate, veil, tabernacle, etc) and became a source of both beauty in the sanctuary as well as catechesis and additional liturgical drama to help the laity perceive the gravity of what is taking place in our midst.
At some point the mass was in Greek or Aramaic. After 300AD it was Romaninized and took on all the Attributes. The archeological digs in Israel show tables. Not alters.
The first pre-Tridentine Latin Mass was promulgated by Pope Victor in A.D. 170 since the vernacular language of the Romans was Latin.
@@alexchristopher221 You mean bishop victor? Up till the east west split in the church, any bishop could be called Pope. Also, The rest of the church worldwide did not speak Latin.
@@NormBaker. The word 'pope' comes from the Latin pāpa, which means “father.” But individual bishops, unlike the bishop of Rome, have never held the universal primacy of authority. The term pope was originally applied to all the bishops in the West. But, In 1073, Pope Gregory VII restricted its use to the bishop of Rome.
@@alexchristopher221 Correct. Then they split.
@@NormBaker. The split finally occurred in 1054, not post 1073.
Do the speakers agree with the view that Christians started calling their Eucharist a sacrifice only in response to Pagan. criticism that Christians were atheists with no temple and no sacrifice?
Christian
No. Listen to the episode that precedes this one for a more complete response!
I’d love to have you guys on my channel or come on yours. My passion is the temple roots of Catholicism. I’ve been blessed to have folks like Scott Hahn, Brant Pitre, John Bergsma, and many more! Let me know if you brothers would be interested! God bless!
Why no meat. I missed that.
I love teaching rad trads about how the first few centuries of mass not being in Latin. Watching their thin world crumble is oddly satisfying as they attempt to process the info
Thank you for reminding us about the Jewishness of early Christianity. They never changed the Sabbath to Sunday. There is no new Sabbath. Sabbath has been hallowed well before the giving of the Law. And the gathering of first century disciples was not called Mass.
Found the SDA! Not all Christian gatherings then were Masses.
Mass is a more recent term for Latin rite Catholics, but it’s the same thing. They state in the beginning that they celebrated their liturgy on Saturday evening, which in ancient Jewish thought, would be Sunday, as the day ended on the evening. So it was Sunday, or the first day of the week as the book of Acts states, from the Old Creation to the New Creation with Christs Resurrection.
From the 7th to the 8th day?? Sabbath was originally on Saturday - which is the 6th day
The first day of the week for Jews was Sunday, and they reckoned days by sundown to sundown, not sunrise to sunrise. So, the sabbath (7th day) was from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.
@@TheCatholicBrothers ok, but even if Saturday is the 7th day, than it is still 6th to 7th day, when it’s starts on Friday the 6th day.
@@Soekell but Friday evening *is* the beginning of the 7th day, for Jews.
What is your overall contention? Maybe if I know what you’re trying to get at, I can speak to it directly.
I just never see any references in the bible about the number 8. I know about some renaissance paintings of the Tower of Babel, in which the tower is depicted to have 7 finished stages, and 8th is about to be finished. This was interpreted by art historians as a symbol of humanity trying to put themselves over God.
@@Soekell
Epistle of Barnabas (which, it should be noted, was considered to be Scripture for some early Christian churches):
“Finally He saith to them; “Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot stand.” Ye see what is His meaning; it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world. Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens.’ (Barnabas 15:8-9)
“Now, sirs,” I said, “it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated [intimated] by God through these rites.” … “The command of circumcision, again, bidding the Jews always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and remain the first.” … “You know, then, sirs, ” I said, “that God has said in Isaiah to Jerusalem: ‘I saved thee in the deluge of Noah.’ By this which God said was meant that the mystery of saved men appeared in the deluge. For righteous Noah, along with the other mortals at the deluge, i.e., with his own wife, his three sons, and their wives, being eight in number, were a symbol of the eighth day, wherein Christ appeared when He rose from the dead, for ever the first in power. For Christ, being the first-born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, and faith, and wood, containing the mystery of the cross; even as Noah was saved by wood when he rode over the waters with his household.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 24;41;138)
Cyprian of Carthage:
“For in respect of the observance of the eighth day of the Jewish circumcision of the flesh, a sacrament was given beforehand in shadow and in usage; but when Christ came, it was fulfilled in truth. For because the eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, was to be that on which the Lord should rise again, and should quicken us, and give us circumcision of the spirit, the eighth day, that is the first day after the Sabbath, and the Lord’s Day, went before in the figure; which figure ceased when by and by the truth came and spiritual circumcision was given to us”. Letter 58, 4).
Augustine’s dialogue with Faustus:
“[Christ] suffered voluntarily, and so could choose His own time for suffering and for resurrection, He brought it about that His body rested from all its works on Sabbath in the tomb, and that His resurrection on the third day, which we call the Lord’s day, the day after the Sabbath, and therefore the eighth, proved the circumcision of the eighth day to be also prophetical of Him. For what does circumcision mean, but the eradication of the mortality which comes from our carnal generation? So the apostle says: “Putting off from Himself His flesh, He made a show of principalities and powers, triumphing over them in Himself.” The flesh here said to be put off is that mortality of flesh on account of which the body is properly called flesh. The flesh is the mortality, for in the immortality of the resurrection there will be no flesh; as it is written, “Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
The ritualistic worship shown here...which year was it?
First century
Thank you for insights on the original "Agape" meal. The Nicolaitain meal, who was trained by Stephen who was trained by Peter.
Until you challenge all assumptions, you can't get to the full solution.
"One of the Sabbath" is not Saturday or Sunday. The Etruscan week was 8 or 9 days. Ancient weeks had 10 days. Just look at your hands. Or count "God said" in Genesis 1. Or Daniel carefully.
After the Messiah Death Event, the 7 day week was introduced by Romans and stratified by Masoretes. The key question is "when was the 10 day week replaced by 7 days in Judaism?" The why should be obvious, ignorance (knowledge was lost, eg 600BC) or cover up (the Messiah Death Event).
Sunrise is the day start. The greater light rules the day. Again, when did this change?
My hands have two thumbs. The two Sabbaths. Left is feminine, right is masculine. Every 5 days, a pentad, is a Sabbath.
God bless you on your journey of discovery.
Shabbat. Lots of speculation but think how it also reminds of betrayal not just celebration. The happy Christian not so much they're in hiding . The Roman's are trying to destroy them by root and branch. Oh that kiss is left out 364 days a year . These were jews . Some herodian some hashemites others maybe gentile . This idea that Paul's so cool arises only after his role in martyring Stephen. Oh there were many more sacraments in early Christianity.
Saturday night Mass is trad? lol
I love your content, but on the TLM and associated church architecture, I need to strongly disagree that the altar rail represents the one-sided table in the triclinium. If you look at the iconostasis in traditional Greek churches, the “rail” notion is even stronger - a division of the congregation from the place of sacrifice. More like the Temple itself. Not like the early agape feasts of 1 Cor 11 or the house church of Dura Europos.
Yes, we weren’t overstating that point too much, as if that was the *rationale* behind the implementation of altar rails, historically. We were just pointing out that, theologically, to see the altar rail as an extension of the table, it holds together both the primitive agape/table fellowship *and* the more developed understanding of altar and sacrifice. There’s a fullness to it that is thoroughly catholic.
Can u please supply the Bible references for "μια τών σαββάτον"? I can't seem to find all of them
Hey Paul, thanks for the comment/question. Compare the Greek in Acts 20:7 with 1 Corinthians 16:2, Mark 16:2, Matthew 28:1, Luke 24:1, and John 20:1. Likewise the usage of sabbath to mean a “week” in Luke 18:11-12.
@@TheCatholicBrothers Thanks very helpful
The arrangement of the ancient basilicas is identical to that of the Classical Roman basilica, this is that the iudex, or judge, would sit upon a cathedra, or a seat, surrounded on steps by his entourage of magistrates and pages, judging various civil cases. This harkens to the seat of Moses as judge, and is a tradition maintained in churches with very high quality liturgies, in which the acolytes sit on the steps during the Gloria, Homily, Creed, etc., and during Pontifical Masses during which the ministers sit at the throne or on the altar when the Bishop uses a faldstool (a Roman chair used by the consuls and praetor), or during the Mass of the Presanctified (pre-1956 Missal).
Pope Pius XII made it clear that going back to the liturgy of apostolic times and rejecting the liturgy created by the Popes and the Councils was wrong!
Right, so a long overdue reform of the Liturgy is not that. Especially since it was coming through a Council and under a sainted Pope. 🤔
Aren’t you missing a lot of context talking about 1st Corinthian 14? It’s about speaking in tongues or foreign languages in your prayers during the service that no one else can understand - so people cannot agree on your prayer when they don’t understand it. We also learn from this chapter that participants were allowed to pray freely.
Come home to Orthodoxy
Already did. In the communion of the Church united with Peter.
Dear, "The Catholic brothers" which bishop gave you permission to use the word "Catholic" in your title ?. I would refer you to canon 216.
Hey! Two things: “competent ecclesiastical authority” includes one’s pastor. Our priest approved of our podcast.
Also, mild suggestion: stop being scrupulous for scrupulosity’s sake.
IT WAS A JEWISH SEDAR. NOT A GENTILE GET TOGETHER.
lol oh boy… I can only encourage you to keep reading and studying
@@TheCatholicBrothersUntil Cornelius' first attendance at Mass, the Holy Mass included no baptised gentiles. That period was about 3½ years
The early earliest Christian altars/tables WERE in the round at the time the first Christians-you even say it your self. The liturgy has evolved to have altars as we know then over time. So Vatican II changes liturgical practice-in respect to alignment of altars and the orientation of the priest- reflect the earliest practice not that evolution that followed. The traditional Mass is a beautiful liturgy with inspiring ritual and music. But it too many ways to count, it does not resemble what was happening in say, 100 BC.
And the development of Low Mass-which never even occurred in the Eastern liturgies- was an abomination. Congregations could have like the Orthodox continued to participate in Mass actively. Instead Catholics evolved the Mass to experience into a place that many Trads praise for its silence and air of sacredness both important for private devotion. But it is not a private devotion. Except in the case of the dialogue Mass- which I understand to be a 20th century phenomena and in my mind an excellent one- the Mass devolved into a ceremony during which many folks daydreamed about what was after Mass or prayed the Rosary. Bilingual Missals were available and Catholics were strongly encouraged to use them but more often than not didn't use them. Ironically the only time they spoke out loud was during the prayers AFTER Mass.
This effort to sell the Tridentine Mass-which by the way I love to attend when sung- as the real Mass or reflective of what happened in all periods of church history is revisionist. And if the notion that the laity couldn't be expected to learn Latin, tell that to my late, illiterate Aunt Carmella. She memorized with the help of her priest the basic Catholic prayers- Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Gloria Patri etc-in Latin. Much like countless Orthodox and Jews have learned at least enough of their liturgical languages to actively participate in their liturgies, Catholics could have done the same.
Please do not think these comments are in support of the WAY the Novus Ordo is celebrated. They are not.
What horrible nonsense! Holy and Divine Liturgy is not the same as the Last Supper.
Horrible horrible HORRIBLE!!!
(We didn’t say it was)
@@TheCatholicBrothers Oh, really? Than what this nonsense is sbout
@@alexpanagiotis4706 we literally make the opposite point, that the early Eucharist was reflected in *all* of the meal contexts of NT texts. Feeding the 5,000; fish on the beach; road to Emmaus; and YES, the last supper. All of it was interpreted by the early Christians as “Eucharistic” and inspired the ritual acts and surrounding art of the liturgy.
Tone down the passion, friend.
@@TheCatholicBrothers Yeah, and this is nonsense. I was right
@@TheCatholicBrothers The Church Fathers saw some Types of the Mystery of the Eucharist. But hidden in shadows. Like the eternal Priest Melchisedek. But this has nothing to do with the way the early Christians celebrated the Holy and Divine Liturgy.
The Brothers are apologists for TLM but, sadly, much of what they say is purely opinion and not based on historical fact. To say that TLM is the most accurate reflection of worship in the first century is to say that they don't know what they are talking about. Rather than bring TLM into the discussion, attempting to justify its primacy over the NO mass, they should have done more research so that their presentation wasn't so cursory.
Hi there, there are less polemical ways of engaging with the content, but since you chose the polemical route, here we go.
Nobody here argues that the TLM is the most accurate reflection of worship in the first century in Jerusalem…. Neither of us even attend the TLM, by choice, so that hurts your argument (calumny?) significantly.
We merely noted one particular point of posture during reception and its resemblance to reception in the triclinium, which nuances a lot of the assertive, “gather us in” propaganda that more progressive types use to denigrate the medieval form of the Mass or a reverent Novus Ordo.
Also, what in the world is a “TLM apologist” ? Shouldn’t every Catholic have a certain level of enthusiasm for the old rite ? It *was* the primary form of the Mass for over 500 years in the Latin Rite, and arguably (in terms of its content), for 1600 years. We’re not rad trads… Just Catholics…
The presentation here is also “cursory” because that’s what the sources demand of a responsible scholar….Envisioning first century worship is balancing act between informed imagination on the one hand, and conservative caution on the other, due to the nature of the sources we have to pull from at such an early period.
Since you said that “much of what they say is purely opinion and not based on historical fact,” I ask that you bullet point all of your concerns here with counter arguments based on the sources. We will gladly respond to whatever you leave posted here.
27:40 😅
I do not understand on which grounds you speculate that the scriptural segment of the Mass occurred after the "banquet" or agapé. The agapé feast occurred at the very end of the liturgy, because the attendees had been fasting. This was restricted and largely fell out of use by the 5th Century. Traces of it are seen in the Byzantine anticodon, and the lost Gallican custom of the pain béni which was distributed after first communions by a girl. Before the agapé, the Eucharist was confected, and before that the admonitory scriptural readings.
Furthermore, you mention the sitting on one side of the table. I believe that early on under influence from the Jews, specifically probably St. Peter, the Christians quickly took up the practice of standing the entire liturgy and the presbyters on the same side of the table facing East, as the Jews would for the Passover meal facing the Temple, and as was the pagan religious custom of the Greeks as a sign of reverence. I believe in Leonardo DaVinci was aware of this fact and depicted it as such. I understand Luke says discubuit in reference to Jesus, but it is possible he would have stood for the actual consecration. But that is mere speculation.
Land of milk and honey
is also the land of
cow poo and bee stings.
Believe me. The early Church did not perform Roman Catholic Masses.
Bless your heart
This pretty much melts so much of ahistorical Protestant 'theology'... Orthodox never suffered this problem....you should probably use liturgy if we're being honest about origins...but mass/liturgy is linguistic and historical... unlike all of Protestantism...not that anyone really cares....
Fascinating 😂.... remember please that Western Christians came much later than in the East in significant numbers...not debating history... only actual demographics
@@MichaelBrown-be7vn I’m not sure what your comments are responding to from the video, precisely..
But, w/ regard to western Christians coming much later than eastern Christians, did you not notice the list of cities in Acts 2 when Peter baptizes multitudes of Jewish pilgrims from those areas ?
Rome was on the list. So, from the day of Pentecost onward, there was a Christian community in Rome.
came across this channel randomly and there's a seeming endorsement of the poorly researched book The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity...I'm not sure why people find that compelling but it is not a Catholic book
Can you time stamp where this endorsement appears in the video?
@@TheCatholicBrothers you favorited a comment about it in the replies to this video
@@sams3046 the like on that comment was just in response to the compliment he gave our content; it was not an endorsement of any particular thesis.
@@TheCatholicBrothers I see, fair enough
The Eucharist is blasphemy.
Jesus is the one who instituted the Eucharist…..