REAL vs MIDI Violin Sound: Can they hear the difference?
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Producers are always using a combination of authentic instrumentalists and synth/MIDI strings for their music, so today, I brought in Aaron Edson to help me create a test and see if you can hear the difference between a real and fake violin sound. Comment below how well you guessed!
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ROB LANDES is an award-winning violinist who started playing the violin at 3 years in Orem, Utah. Born to a large musical family, Rob gave his first solo recital at 10 years old, performed in the Hollywood Bowl in Los Angeles on the Disney Channel with the Disney Young Musicians Symphony Orchestra, and founded a piano trio that performed actively throughout his teenage years. Rob has won first prize at numerous music competitions and has soloed with the Utah Symphony, Utah Valley Symphony, San Diego Chamber Orchestra, BYU Philharmonic, and BYU Chamber Orchestra. As a first violinist of the BYU Chamber Orchestra, Rob performed in more than twenty cities throughout central and southern Europe, and as concertmaster of the orchestra, gave a concert to a sold-out audience in New York’s Carnegie Hall. Rob was awarded full scholarships to attend Brigham Young University and Rice University where he earned a Bachelor’s in Music and Master’s in Music, respectively. While studying at Rice, Rob began covering rock and pop music, and upon returning to Salt Lake City after graduation, began playing with a looper pedal which he uses to create intricate and stunning arrangements of today and yesterday’s most popular music Rob recently won the award for "Best Instrumental" at the Utah Music Awards for his rendition of Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah".
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Did you get them all right??
Rob Landes he is awesome
I did, well I'm a violinist so of course it was easy.
Dang Elijah same
I could feel your passion seep through the speaker and into my ears.
Dang Elijah how much was your viin
It's interesting: real players train to play like computers (play perfectly in tune, play consistently, controlled timing, etc), and we try to make computers sound like real players, but neither ever reaches the other
That is so true
well, if technology is trying to replicate human sound, then humans aren't technically reaching for anything.
true, and the former is the case because humans are imperfect by nature, so most people training themselves to sound more "perfect" will never really sound "perfect/robotic" (excluding a few genius edge cases)
Real players aren’t actually training to play like computers, because computers have no color or emotion or tone.
Im sorry, but you are not rigth
In the fake one you can't hear a volume difference in the transition of the notes
Yes you can
Not really. There's no crescendo or decrescendo...no trail off of notes. It has a strict "note begins-note ends" sound, because of the way MIDI works. It would take a lot of time-consuming manipulation of each note to gain vibrato and volume modulation to simulate real playing.
It depends, what sample sounds you use. Since about 10 years there are technologies to integrate articulations, to recognize legato play, to imitate all the details, so the fake may be recognized, because there are too much ornamentations.
Rob F there was a diffrence in the volume but i cant quite explain how though
This test itself is a fake, like we would compare a Steinway grand piano with an inexpensive digital piano from the 1980's.
The secrets all in the vibrato and sometimes the sound of unclean string crossing :D
Pretty easy if you've played a string instrument before lol
wifebeater69 and when he slides his fingers on the fingerboard...that doesn't happen in the midi version
Absolutely
"Wifebeater69", what an amusing name.
Truly a winner, this one.
lovely name
I always listen for finger slide too. One thing they haven't duped a sound for in MIDI or synth, though I'm sure its out there somewhere. One of the few perks of having dog-like hearing, except, of course, trying to understand a human voice seated across from me.
The vibrato is the major giveaway. The real one has a passion and fullness where as the midi is dry and connected throughout the notes consistantly and triggers at the same time every time.
Also the Crescendo and and Decrescendo.
the artificial one cannot show the change in speed of bow moving on the string,so the dynamic and sound is kinda dull
(sorry for my bad English :3
I was right every time. It's the vibrato man.
Nah, it's the change between notes that gives it away. The transition is too crisp on the MIDI. There's no small pause between notes like on the real violin.
Okay. But also the vibrato.
Absolutely
Yeah, for me the vibrato was the most obvious giveaway.
yeah, when it's synthesised it's too consistent, and it starts right away
The main way I could tell is how disconnected the flow of notes sounded with the midi. You don't get clean transitions between notes
yeah, the same
same, that’s was kind of easy to find out
I could tell by the shifting. I personally love when a note has a different sound because it's played on a diff string, but sinthetic never did well recognizing that and emulating it.
Easy ... ! It's the "imperfection" in the real thing and the richness and variations in the sound. The artificial violins simply can't give that.
They didn't make it hard. It's the same, as would they compare a Steinway grand piano and the cheapest digital piano. This "test" was a bit manipulated. Would the person has used a Yamaha Tyros 5, a Korg PA4 x or maybe a Roland Jupiter 80 and tried to do the best, that it may sound like the real thing, most of you were be fooled and I would have discovered the fake, because I noticed, that there would be too much ornamentation.
There are more realistic synthetic sounds than the ones that are used here, but it's good that people could identify the real ones. Itwould be interesting to see if they could still distinguish the real ones if the recording quality for the real ones isn't as good. You could still potentially tell on the basis of vibrato and musicality, but it would be a lot trickier to even hear those nuances
In the Yamaha Tyros 5 and Genos you may find violins with articulations and in Korg PA 4 x too and there are the samples very long without noticeable loops, would you use this, it would be hard to decide, if you aren't violin player.
@@robfriedrich2822 I keep a violin next to my ear 4 hours a day. Musician for 40 years, the best programming doesn't come close.
@@markcobb6561 Probably closer than you would think though, if done right.
Now a days, software synths, and unique controllers can do amazing things.
@@n8goulet Yeah, also they're not _synths_ - they're just strings that are prerecorded note by note.
Yeah, plus the realism has a lot to do with how well the midi is programmed. In order to even approach the the sound of a real violin, there has to be constant small variance in the speed/amount of vibrato, the attack at the beginning of the note, and the speed of the transition between notes. With a midi instrument like say, Joshua Bell Violin and some reeeeally detailed Midi programming, I think you could fool a lot of people. But you'll never fool an experienced string player.
Tbh, all of the fake ones just felt too wrong to be the real deal. Besides the difference between a "fake" violin and a real one, it just wasn't... I actually don't know how to put it because it had nothing to do how they sounded, it was just a feeling. Weird.
I'd kind of describe it as a "richness" vs. a ever so slight "tinny" sound partially due to the smoothness.
I'd have to definitely agree with that. I know that I personally was looking for slight shifts in vibrato and the roundness of the pitch. I've messed with synth violins before and know that they tend almost to be flat in tone quality as opposed to my personal violin playing.
Hey Rob, I thoroughly enjoy your music and greatly admire your technical skills. I know it's not your typical production, but I think a quick vid on your setup; how you mic your violin, the loop pedal you use, your amp, etc. would be very interesting!
I hear it immediately. Not only in all the details, which are abundant, but in the totaltity - the real deal brings out the music, the human passion, the art, and we are touched by it in a way the synthesisers don't (which is not to say that synths are always inapropriate)
I've been following string synthesis for about 30 years and now compose using some of the best sample libraries available. I've been a professional recording engineer for years and have recording dozens of classical performances of all the instruments. My first ever recording of an orchestral instrument was the cellist Dmitri Shostakovitch in a small radio studio. This is when I realized the complexities that go into world-class playing.
I'm glad you brought up the catch-22 in programming aspects, trying to get it to sound human. Aaron is so right; it would take days to make the performance rival a human. All those performance elements he mentioned, like vibrato, bowing technique or slurring are pre-programmed samples but the live player's techniques occur randomly and sound slightly different each time. Where the vibrato begins and its speed vary throughout the performance, as with slurs, timing or that slight "bite" that sometimes occurs as the bow is changing direction.
I compose using the virtual instruments as a mock up guide and to polish the arrangement, then get real people to record the parts. I have found that it's much easier to use virtual instruments as ensembles in a convincing manner. It's the solo performances that are the bitch, except with percussion instruments because they use way fewer articulations. After saying all that, I feel that MIDI VI libraries and notation software are an invaluable tool in music composition, with the potential for more creativity. How many of us have a 50-piece orchestra at our fingertips to try stuff out on?
It's mind boggling, how far we've come in musical synthesis but I hope we never replace people.
This is awesome. Thanks for doing this. I can't wait to share with my young students!
Loved that video! Really original and cool
+thank you! ניב כהן
Thanks
I’m surprised you haven’t got more likes for this comment lmao
Been playing the violin for 4 years as an adult beginner, going through grade 6 pieces now. Expected it to be more challenging. I wanted to believe the first track was fake, but it was too obvious. Thank you for the video, I’m happy to know my sound can never be replaced by a synthesiser. Moving performance on Somewhere over the rainbow Rob!
Awww yes Spring from Bach Love it Juvia Love it 😍
Interesting video! Well done!
3:11 That's what she said
Was easy to differentiate but SURPRISINGLY closer than I expected on some of them for the digital
If you listen to the vibrato and the frequency of the pitch change, plus, as a string player, you can hear the passion, which is a huge giveaway
With a real violines there's vibration in the sound which always is very distinct, but I'm impressed with the synthesizer because there was very smooth transitions note to note. love your videos!
Got them all! I could hear the difference instantly.
I got them all as well, but those are some pretty good midi's too.
the real ones you can hear the shifts
It'd have been better if they were violinist cos non musicians can't really differentiate between instruments and plugins but whoever the violinist was,did an amazing job of expressing emotions and putting life into it.im really impressed by him or her.so much dynamics and depth into his/her playing
That was easy, thank's for the Video!!! ;)
That was fun..ya got em all....oh man this vibrato is going to be the death of me... soooo hard to do a decent vibrato......very good discussion/edu video... thanks Rob and Aaron.
The real one is so smooth and warm... This is one of the cases when perfect it's not the best, but it's also an easier way to accept the reality and understand that maybe it's better this way
The timing of the vibrato makes it impossible to miss
No machine, midi, or robot can replicate a real violinist. Period.
Very very interesting video ! It seems that we cannot fool people :D, even though the samples are quite good.
And that also good to know that samples are also used professionally for movies combined with real instruments. Thanks for sharing !
I could tell the difference because I have a great set of ears. It is difficult to get the "electronic" sound out of dubbing instruments. As mentioned, you can hear the passion and the expression of the person playing verses synthesized instruments.
It's the little inconsistencies and "imperfections" that make the real violin sounds more authentic and organic. Sampled sounds are very consistent in their tone, volume, and timing of the vibrato and end up sounding dry and robotic. The same goes for a lot of other instruments like drums too.
In a lot of cases, it's actually a lot harder to hear the difference between recorded and samples strings. Things like vibrato legato and a bunch of other expressions are very possible. They are just really expensive to turn into a sample library.
In the end, it really depends on what's being played. The biggest benefit with real players is that there is almost nothing you can write that won't sound fantastic. With fake ones, you have to be really careful to not go beyond its boundaries if you want it to sound realistic.
Layering one real player over a virtual orchestra is a really smart way to bring the sound to the next level. I've heard soundtracks that do this for every section and it sounds so much better than with just sampled instruments.
Real strings sound gorgeous and as someone who uses a lot of high-end samples, the real deal can tear me up.
Great video btw!
Hi Rob! Interesting challenge! All my choices were correct. I agree with many listeners who said the expressiveness (passion/vibrato), or bow sounds (attack) or changing of finger position helped them decide. Moreover, I feel MIDI lacks true resonance which can only be produced by acoustic instruments. I'm a novice violinist and have learned its sound is dependent on bow technique, careful bridge and finger placement and precise tuning. I play guitar, some keyboard, and write original music on a freeware VST, which I arrange with string and brass MIDI. MIDI always sounds like whining and it lacks the warmth (resonance) of acoustic instruments IMHO. Chuck
We have infinite velocity for each note and also we have infinite note on the violin... so we should simulate ∞x∞!! This is impossible in the sampling method. I think sound engineers should works on the swam engine project or something like that and improve it... i worked on swam violin vst and i got very natural sound...In my idea, sampling method just works on percussion and drums instruments...thanks for reading😉
You can hear the bow hitting the strings his fingers sliding on the fingerboard, and expression behind the notes. The vabrato has a slight variation that the imitation doesn't
Star Wars (1977) had a fake bassline? For the Special Edition, I wonder if Lucas mucked with the soundtrack as much as he did with the visuals.
+fazdoll good question!
This is the most relaxing test like if you agree
The Jurgys Ur hair is relaxing, so good
@@bryanotero123 what
This is awesome! I don't mind this as a series! The real one you can actually feel the vibrations.... I dunno, that's how I feel.
+Ahmad Shafiq cool, we may do more!
I got them all right the electronic versions sounded flat
Yea, but honestly this producer hasn't done an amazing job of giving them life. You can work with the dynamics, vibrato, slur etc to make it sound much realer.
I can't believe I haven't seen anyone say this yet - you can hear the change of bow direction and grippy sound it makes.
That was cool! I got them all right!
The lack of string crossings in the midi gave it away for me
Clip A is smoother in transitioning between tones and reaches higher level of intensity at natural intervals.
Can you do a video showing every violin technique and how to do it? Its a hard task but it will be really awsome and helpful for everybody watching your channel :)It will be amazing if you can.
It's easy to hear the difference, as the notes change you hear the hard gap, small as it may be. The transitions between notes on the real violin is both smooth and seamless
It's pretty easy to tell the difference, not only is there more "depth" to the real violin. But you can also hear the pitch change in the tone, when the bow is moved to another string.
depends on the string program used and the use of the adjustable perimeters available with the sample library
This quiz was easy :-) Could tell by the first few notes. Nothing imitates a real violin....lol Great video!
This is extremely easy. You can tell so easily! The slight off- pitch rubbing with strings was what gave the authenticity. I could guess each one immediately. Very cool though!
The varying attack of the bow in the real ones gave it away... With the fake ones they still hit like a piano or organ note in a predictable manner.
The fake ones sound fake because there is no expression or passion and u can hear the music, but it has no life. It's just bland, even if the intonation is perfect.
YES totally agree
And another issue here, which even many musicians aren't aware of, is that intonation is part of expression! A violinist may decide to play certain notes either slightly sharp or slightly flat to achieve a particular expressive effect. Not to mention, the use of portamento (sliding from one pitch to another - present in the clips of the real violin, but absent in the fake ones) is done entirely for expressive effect. Then there is the issue of vibrato: a violinist will vary the rate and intensity of the vibrato depending on what emotion he is trying to express. In the fake violin samples, the vibrato is all the same without variation.
The "perfect intonation" is part of the problem - it's not perfect at all; computers come closest to realising pure 12 tone equal temperament - the preferred tuning of the west for the last 200 years - actually it is fractionally out of tune with string harmonics - real players in some situations play more 'perfectly' and in other more imperfectly for expressive quality - the more imperfect pitches can be more dynamic for melody
I disagree.In grime music bare man use artificial strings ,but it still hypes you up.
Your right in that notes vary with context - harmonically a slightly flat major third is more in tune but a computer produces pure 100cent intervals. Over use of vibrato is an issue with many orchestras in that it fudges these microtonal notes a bit - truly in-tune straight tone harmony can sound amazing
It’s really the accents that really help tell the difference!
I can tell as soon as I hear the first note.
Working with sound editing helps differentiate. There is continuation in Clip A along with vibration that is expected from the string making sounds. But in Clip B there is overlapping in continuation, like when two different sounds overlapping to become one, as well as the lack of vibration. Not to mention that due to the lack of vibration Clip B sounds hollow and what 'vibration' added does not resonate.
Nothing makes me skip a track like hearing "fake" violin. So awful.
I even closed my eyes. The passion flowed through the real/authentic clips.
You can hear the transition in the notes. The real ones sound like a transition made on while in note. The keyboard has a very stiff transition, from one note to the next. It's like the difference between hearing someone speak and seeing them type out words.
It seems to me that one of the problems with creating sampled music is the HMI. If a violin-like interface was used rather than a keyboard, more information could be gathered as metadata to add nuances to the sampled music. Using a keyboard to produce violin music is like driving a car with your feet or writing a novel on an iPhone.
Passion can be imparted to synthesized music. I was listening to some Synergy earlier today, and it evoked emotion!
There are many factors, like the volume, and the response of the strings, but the one that stood out the most for me was that there's no breathing between the notes(the instrument breathing, not the person or any sound)
Good video someone who I consider lucky has a freind whos an amazing violinist.
Tone quality, vibrato and the slight intonation issues as well as the passion put into the real thing all help decide.
i was the kid am i famous
?
yes
The main difference I can find is that there's a slight "jump" between notes when the bow is crossing strings on the real one; on the fake one it sounds too smooth
Your videos are absolutely amazing, I'm your newest fan. Any chance you could do a cover of "Hello My Old Heart"?
Show !
When you express skepticism about the possibility of a particular technology mimicking real life, it can actually motivate others to work harder towards achieving that goal, as they become more determined to overcome the challenge.
B sounds like separate notes. A sounds like a single string that is changing pitch.
if you went to music school while professors uploaded MIDI files online for you to dictate, you KNOW what a MIDI string quartet sounds like (also you know the struggles of having to hear inner voices in MIDI files where all the voices are at the exact same volume)
The best way of telling the difference is to look out for sliding noises (1:24) or bow weakening at the end of notes (1:21), this tells you someone is actually playing the instrument, not a computer. I noticed this when composing songs on ipads at school, the strings sound really fake on there.
Each sting has its own unique character. Thats how i hear the diffirance.
Nice video. Was interesting :3
As soon as you put a lot of notes close together on a keyboard it becomes pretty obvious. Maybe something to do with the sound chip when notes are on top of each other, like using the electronic keyboard sound for vibrato.
You can also tell by the shifts in position
It's easy to tell with headphones because the fake tracks all sound hollow and distant, whereas the real violin tracks are right up against the mic.
In the first one I think it’s (a) beacouse of the better dynamics
That was so easy. I'm playing the violin and for me, it was really easy. Because I hear the vibrations. On the fake, there aren't any vibrations. And the fiddlestick
moves were very specific.
It might be interesting to know what Vst has been used.
I am here because videogame Dragon Quest XI was released with MIDI OST this summer 2018 and feel worse than Dragon Quest VIII orchestrated OST in 2006. In fact, specially violins feel very different. Very good and interesting video.
Good Job man. Do you have any samler can go with Korg pa4x pro.
I would buy any real sounded instrument for my keyboard.
Thanks for your reply.
Was there any automation done to the MIDI violin? I feel like you could get a closer comparison if correct automation was done. If you have the right sample library you can automate volume as well as expression among other things fairly easily. This is done quite a bit in movie scores (think Hans Zimmer or JunkieXL). I think that would have a very different outcome.
The fake violin sounds like it was played in a piano that sounds like a violin.
the vibrato and hearing the bow come off the string hearing the note fade off and more of a gentle coming into and out of the note was generally the give away
There's something like a cut-off beginning of notes in sampled violin (or what was it). Makes it sound very digital.
I don't know what i'm talking bout tho:DDD
I think they can distinguish the original violin sound from MIDI because the MIDI violin sound is not played with the MIDI controller violin. The touch of the violinist is not covered if the synthesizer is played by keyboard MIDI controller.
Please, record some peaces of music where the real violin play on the top sample's library layers
Gotta shout out that Air on the G string
ok - but what keyboard offers the closest vibrato? Love the vid..... now give us the info to choose... please
from a producer standpoint you can tell because of the velocity
The key to telling if it's fake or real is to hear the transitions, vibrato, and the timing of the notes themselves.
A real string player usually has forte-piano-forte transition between notes. Basically, the note starts quiet and gets louder.
When it's fake, it doesnt have that same feel. Its just blasting you with the same noise level.
The vibrato is very important too.
A real player starts slow, quickens up fast, then slows down gradually.*(thats what she said)* Real players also use vibratos at different speeds.
A fake one speeds up to the vibrato then it abruptly ends as it swiches notes. Synthetic strings also use one speed of vibrato.
The last one is tricky but is easy to spot when you use synthetic music to compose.
We all know that humans are imperfect, so we ususally do not play spot on perfectly. So there are imperfections in timing in the piece. However, they are very miniscule, but you can detect them.
As you can already tell, computers do it the other way.
the most obvious way to tell if it's real or fake, just physically speaking, when he shifts to the higher positions. The tone on the fake ones instantly jump, not even a hint of a possible shift while the real ones have sort of a momentary slide-y sound
I still use lower end VSTs like Mixcraft's Acoustica instruments and Halion 6 for solo string sounds, I even use my Roland sound modules like the SC-88 Pro and JV-1080 but then I'm not going out of my way to sound convincing. There are also freeware VSTs that are either OK or have the same kind of quality as DAW stock. But if you compare expensive sample libraries to all the lower end VSTs and 90s sound modules the sample libraries like East-West and Kontakt still blow hardware and lower end VSTs out of the water. Just because it's fake doesn't always mean it's bad.
Can you play the Ejercicio? There isn't any video (I didn't find) on violin. And if you can learn and play it and upload that video on the RUclips? That will be awesome!
You are the heck of a violinist man! Midi is NOTHING like the real deal!
For me, I was able to identify it as the very subtle, slight imperfections. A note ever so slightly played out of tune here or there with passion sounds way more beautiful and real than the MIDI.
what vst, sample used?