During covid, some ministers were denying people access to worship for not wearing the government's legislatiled covering over their face, but have no problem with disregarding God's command for a woman's head covering during worship. Interesting....
@@RightResponseMinistries Hi Joel, if you have time please see my response/comment below. Those are some questions that come to mind when I read the passage of scripture regarding women and head coverings. Thanks.
Exactly. Hat removal is so engrained in our culture that it happens as a sign of respect and reverence even in non spiritual events like the pledge of allegiance or singing a patriotic song. That a pastor cannot do this for preaching is really sad and displays an arrogance to Gods word.
I’ve written a letter to my pastor about this, but it’s still going on at that church. I was told the other day that way back people would actually remove their hats when even riding by a church. That’s respect.
I CANNOT STAND when I see videos and pictures of the “pastor” (and I use that term very liberally) dressed up like an early 90s teenager. Very irreverent. They want the attention on them rather than God. It’s even more pathetic when they are like in their late 40s & 50s, doing all they can to look “cool”. Some subconscious insecurity issues.
That's YOUR personal view. Like Paul's PERSONAL view in Corinthians 11:14. I have personal views also. I do not require others to follow it. But it's ok, just not to expect the same of others. Rea James ch. 2.
My view, is that a modern suit and tie, is the most ridiculous thing there is, but I hold no one to that. It is a personal uniform. Of choice. Not command. Hat? No. Can't make someone stumble. ( Trigger). Respect to God, is doing the great commission. Not clothes, hair, beard, shoes, when he told Peter 3 times, feed my sheep, he did not say, dress this way.
ruclips.net/p/PLaCIdQ1WhMdqx931lKukl7pNEfVawCWia&si=5BZb3I7umH2SXoSP We have a local pastor who wears a hat and I don’t get it,, it is against scripture and brings attention to yourself, Paul told the woman to dress in a way that does not brings attention to their self ,,and also tells them to make sure they have a cover on their head and then not to have a cover on their head to the men as to the created order of authority it’s all within scripture and I don’t understand why it’s ignored
The teaching of headcoverings has brought a lot of security for me because growing up it was always stressed at home and in homeschooling circles that the men and boys remove hats for everything (prayer, national anthem, church, mealtimes) but it was never clear what women were to do. I always felt awkward when someone said to remove your hat unless they specified men only. As I grew older I thought, well, the Bible says I don't have to remove it so I won't (though I didn't believe in headcoverings). From that, I even had someone remove my hat for me during a prayer which I found quite disrespectful and confusing. Now that I know the proper teaching surrounding headcoverings for women I am much more confident when I enter into a church service or some ceremony involving prayer. And the only thing that convinced me was reading the verses and realising that in his reasoning for it Paul points back to creation, and that is the same reasoning we (and Paul) use to show why women aren't to be pastors. If I believe one, I should believe the other.
This year I started wearing a cap on a regular basis. As I wore it to church, I hesitated to wear it into the sanctuary. I wear it all the time in the machine shop at work. I like it. Makes me look good, I think. Plus there are other practical matters to wearing it. So. . .I did not choose to wear my cap into the sanctuary. It was something inside me. There were no rules, no one telling to or not to wear the hat. So that something inside me was probably more than custom but perhaps the holy spirit even in this small matter. Interesting.
Thank you for holding to Scripture on this, Joel. Everywhere we have been, even in the Reformed churches, I am considered a legalist for covering my head before anyone can ask about my testimony, except in our Mennonite friends'' church. Almost all women inherently avoid me during times of talking and fellowship, where as my husband has no problem being greeted by the men in the same fellowship interchange time. The cultural argument from churches just doesn't hold water! Then why not quit other practices outlined in the NT for the church if we are gonna pick and choose everytime something no longer seems 'in"?
This reminds me of a time when I invited a friend to church and she wore a headcovering; found out later that someone thought she was a Muslim. Woops. People assume weird things sometimes. Perhaps they avoid you because of the old "if you believe a certain way you must be judging me for doing differently" train of thought, which is dumb. Maybe they just feel really awkward because of that visible difference, which is understandable even if it's pretty shallow.
@MtnGirl & Bunny I understand how you feel. I only recently started covering in Church, and one of my fears was that I would be judged as a legalist. But I usually wear a hat, so I think most people assume that it's just a fashion choice. But as I thought about this, I realized that this fear was based on how I used to see women who covered before I had come to this conviction. I assumed they were judging me -- which was actually me judging them unjustly. This attitude (assuming we're being judged) can also reveal conviction of sin in our own heart. I was not firmly convinced that I was in the right. I never really understood 1 Cor. 11; I had no theological answer that made sense. When it came down to it, my reasoning was just that God wouldn't require something like that. "Because it doesn't make sense to me! And we're under grace, or something." This was a failure to submit to God on my part. When I did submit, I did so without understanding at first. Pastor Joel's exegesis has helped me make sense of this command, which I really appreciate, but I should have been obeying the whole time regardless. So both of those were heart issues that I've had to deal with; the judgmental heart and the disobedience. These are things I keep in mind when the worry of how others see me resurfaces. I try to remember that their hearts are their business (and their husband's and God's, but that's a tangent). I am obeying God as well as I can and keeping a charitable heart toward others at different places in their walk. I don't need to stress about how they see me; because it is not true; I'm not being holier-than-thou. This leaves me free to obey joyfully. If the women at your church are consciously avoiding you, maybe they are being convicted. Try making the first advance; smile warmly, show them that you're approachable, and maybe they will surprise you, or maybe God will use you to change their hearts. But don't let the perceived attitudes of others steal your joy. Obedient women should be the happiest women.
When I got saved I got saved because a man that has those “ red flags “ gave me the gospel. No one with a blazer nice clean cut Christian ever came to me to talk to me about the gospel. I see it differently.
When I was growing up, wearing a hat to church, for a woman, was either a fashion statement, or because she was Catholic. Men wore hats, and removed them for the National Anthem, etc. From my reading experience, men were expected to remove their hats when passing a church, or whenever a sign of respect was required.
There have been more and more sisters covering over the past few years in my church. Three years ago my wife was alone. There were probably five families this morning. It seems to be younger ladies, under 40yo.
Yes it is .it is not godly masculinity which in submission to Christ's is be seen woth a man NOT wearing a Covering WHILE leading in trenching and teaching which is prophesying and prayer . So that men who do that are bring Effeminate shwong themselves to be women who are to cover their head when prophesying and praying. Thus men are to not wear a Covering on their head to show Godd order as those who are the head, and women are to wear a Covering to show thry are not the head but under submission and authority of men. This is an apostolic ordinance for all churches given by Paul the apostle of Jesus Christ. Hence its the word of christ for all the churches of christ . For agsin it's basis is not culture but God's order for man and women in creation .
I started covering my head a few years ago, even though no one else does. And it generally feels awkward (even though most of the time my cover is just a big headband). But I figured that feeling awkward was a good practice for humility. But I also don't like sticking out, and don't want to draw attention to myself. Also, it is pretty easy to cover for Sunday services (and also for Friday morning prayer)....but I pray spontaneously a LOT throughout the day. I know the women of some church traditions cover all the time, but I'm not at that point for myself. My big question in regard to this passage concerns the Jewish kippah that men wear. Observant Jews wear it everywhere, and they even provide one for any visitors who didn't bring their own (e.g. non-Jewish visitors). I know that Paul is talking to Gentiles in the Corinthian passage...but I just wonder how it can be "so obvious" that men should NOT cover their heads, when Jewish men DO cover. Would Paul be wearing a kippah as a Jew in his day? So that's weird to me. Also about men not wearing long hair. How long is "long"? One standard (in some churches today, or back in the 1950s) a man's hair shouldn't touch his collar. But our image of Jesus and the disciples is generally shoulder length hair...is that length "short enough"? And of course, any man taking a nazirite vow didn't cut his hair until the vow was completed. John the Baptist and Samson were lifelong nazirites...they must have had pretty long hair. I know prophets could be known for appearing pretty eccentric, but it is hard to think that their long hair would be "sin." So I think it is still hard to really separate out these verses from their culture and know what the standard is.
Regarding the kippah, I had that question, too. Turns out, Jewish men did not cover their heads in New Testament times. That tradition started shortly after that time.
Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of man made practices that don't have a scriptural basis and (with the exception of Messianic Jews) still reject Christ today. Regarding "our image of Jesus and the disciples", unfortunately all we have are various imaginings of what they looked like, and nothing concrete. As far as Nazarites and Nazarite vows, there were also certain foods seen as unclean, and animal sacrifices which thankfully are things that have been done away with
@@valerieehrenholz5508 Thanks. Do you have any insight about why Jewish men started covering their head? And then what about the headgear we see on the Pharisees, etc. in Jesus' day? And the high priest definitely had head gear, instituted for Aaron by God's direct revelation to Moses. Hmmm, or maybe that is why head coverings for men ended, since Jesus was the one and only high priest now.
@@myrealnameisjohndoe116 True...but I'm still a bit stuck on "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him?" Because I'm like...uh, did I miss something in Biology class? I know Paul is writing to people who know the context, while we are just guessing. But I definitely don't get the lesson that Paul thinks is so obvious. And then I'm still left wondering how long is long? And now I'm wondering if Jesus had taken a nazirite vow. (He turned water to wine...but did he drink it?) Or maybe he actually had short hair...maybe artistic renditions of him are assuming that he took a nazirite vow. Thanks for your interaction on this.
@@deemdepot well, I'm definitely no expert. I just refreshed myself on the information, so here's what I learned: Jewish men started wearing head coverings about the time Jesus (so my previous statement was slightly off) as a way to honour God by keeping themselves separated from the divine presence that was over their heads. The practice does not come from Scripture and different sects view this custom differently in terms of how important it is to follow. Maybe that's why the Pharisees covered their heads. For those who practice it as law, it seems to be a way of pointing to how the man is extra righteous (some even say two hats are better than one). That would line up with the Pharisees' attitudes of the time, but this is only my theory. As for the high priest's headgear, I know very little, but as his uniform was special, it did not inform the dress of ordinary men, so I don't think it would have much weight in this discussion. I'd have to look further into it, though.
I have a genuine question... why does the stance seem to be "the Bible is clear that women should cover their heads, but we won't place it in the category of sin that needs to be called out and will generally leave them alone about it". But on the matter of a man wearing a hat in church, we'll come straight out and call it blatant sin. No exceptions. It just seems inconsistent to me. Why are we more firm about the man's covering than the women's lack of covering?
Question for Ps Joel or anyone else: Is there another doctrine or passage of Scripture where we have to use extra-biblical information to interpret a passage and form a doctrine? Those Pastors etc who argue that women don't need to wear head coverings at church today say that when Paul wrote 1 Cor, that women at the time who would keep their head uncovered were either saying 'I'm available sexually', or they were one of the high class temple prostitutes. Are these ideas taught anywhere in Scripture? These Pastors would say women don't need to wear head covering today argue that we live in a different culture today, so women don't need to wear head covering at church.
I always cover with a fabric covering! :) I have a few from Garlands of Grace and sometimes I use inexpensive bandanas to cover my head for worship! :o)
@@randomuser6306 There's debate to be had. I would argue it's up to the Sisters freedom and liberty. If she comes under the conviction of head covering, she should cover her head with no shame.
It seems there is a spirit of competition. This ones better, im better, none, are better. The body is the body. When the hand starts telling the ear, he needs to be like him, things go awry.
Although they is no where in the Bible that states not to wear a hat... Keep in mind what is the CHURCH and Who's is the HEAD of church? The bible says the church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus Christ is the HEAD of the Church. If Jesus is LORD of all to you and you are going to be with his His Bride, how would you present yourself?
“ If a woman does not cover her head she should have her hair cut off,” means that if a woman does not have the covering of male authority over her, she may as well shave her head in disgrace and if that’s a shameful thing, she can put a hat on her head to cover up the shame. And men need to stay under the authority of their head (Christ), and not ‘cover’ Christ because man was made in the image and the glory of God and women is the glory of man.
This scripture is not talking about a physical hat but is talking about man and women being out from under authority while praying. It’s always respectful to not wear hats in formal settings though.
I believe in many parts of the world, the head covering is still absolutely required. But not because of the garment itself. It’s a sign of submission. Verse 10 says, “For this reason, a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head.” Paul himself says it’s a symbol or sign of submission so I think that’s the strongest exegetical argument. In our context, it would be like married women taking off their wedding rings and acting as if they aren’t married when they go to church. Now, as a sign of respect, men should absolutely remove hats when praying or preaching.
@@suelutz5364 that was my point. In our culture, women wearing literal headscarves would look pretty out of place. In many cultures around the world though, the headscarf is still very much in use.
We ought not worship our traditions, however, that is a far cry from observing them with an understanding of why we hold to them. On that note, even though I DESPISED being stuffed into very uncomfortable, restrictive clothing that prevented me from wallering in filth on sundays as little boys are wont to do, i understood early WHY. Why dress up for school? For a job interview? For a date with a girl i want to win? Because the exterior reflects (or should) express our interior or our heart's attitude and inentions towards the situation. Never mind the teacher, classmates, employer or possible future wife's opinion of me, in comparison to how God sees me
Regarding head coverings and women....I do believe that Pastor Joel is right that this passage from Paul does convey that women should wear head coverings. But there is some important context within the passage that seems to always be left out and ignored. First of all, it was a local custom in Corinth for women to wear head coverings as a sign of subordination and submission to men (similar to the Roman and Jewish customs where women wore a head covering/shawl). That fact in and of itself is important, because women wearing headcovers in subordination to men is obviously not something that is practiced in our culture and therefore wouldn't carry the same weight and meaning. It is interesting that while addressing the question about the hip pastor, Joel appeals to culture as part of his response to argue that men know to take off their hats to pray, but ignores culture when reading the head coverings passage and how it applies to women. I don't think Joel would be ok with a woman wearing a baseball cap in church as a covering, as most of us wouldn't. Even though it is a "covering", that type of hat would actually be taken as a sign of disrespect in our culture. Paul says to greet brothers and sisters in Christ with a holy kiss (which is repeated 4 times in the NT), which we of course do not do. Cultural context matters. But giving Joel the benefit of the doubt, lets say that this passage does apply to us as a command, regardless of culture. The text specifically says "when praying and prophesying" women are to wear head coverings (1 Cor 11:4-5). Why do we ignore this? I know Joel believes women should not speak aka teach/preach in church (as do I - 1 Tim 2:12, 1 Cor 14:34). So what is the text on head coverings saying (1 Cor 11:2-16)? Is it saying that when women teach and preach (prophesy) and pray in church they are to cover their heads? It cannot be saying that if you believe that women are not to do so in church, or else we are to acknowledge a contradiction in Paul's writings (which means that, ironically, if you believe that women are not to pray or prophesy in church, one could argue that it therefore logically follows that this text is talking about everywhere BUT church. I don't believe that this passage is saying that, but the point stands). Then is it saying in public places when a woman proclaims Christ to unbelievers, she is to cover her head? Is it saying that anytime a woman prays, including in her home, she is to wear a head covering? What about silent and/or private prayers? I think not. Simply boiling the text down to say that Doug Wilson is wrong, and especially wrong about verse 15 (which I agree with Joel on, although I highly doubt that is Doug's only argument) and that therefore the text is explicitly saying women should wear head coverings in church today fails to take into account important context and implications in the passage. I think the point of the text when you consider these things is that women in the Body of Christ are to show signs of respect, subordination, and distinction to men in church (and outside of church gatherings) when it comes to Christian order and proclaiming of His word.
1 cor 11:16 states clearly that the head covering is for all churches, ' we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God'. No church anywhere in the world, is authorized to ignore the head covering rule. V. 16 is quietly emphatic. A mandate.
@@johornbuckle5272 either you didn't understand my point, or skimmed over my comment (which would be fair, it's way too long). Even if we set aside cultural norms at the time (and as another commenter pointed out - it was also understood in that culture that a head covering also conveyed marriage v being "sexually available" ie prostitution) and assume it is a mandate for today's churches, my point was, Paul says first (in 1 Cor 11:4-5) when a woman "prays or prophesies", she should cover her head. That's the context. So either you have to acknowledge Paul is contradicting himself in saying that women can in fact prophesy/preach/teach in church (after being clear in other letters they can't 1 Tim 2:12, 1 Cor 14:34) and when they do they should cover their head, or you have to consider he wasn't talking about actual local church assembly. Either way, you have to acknowledge the command is only for when a women prays or prophesies, not all the time. Why do you skip right over the women praying and prophesying part? What does that mean? How can someone read v 2-16 and jump straight to the conclusion that women must wear head coverings at all times in church? V 16 is in light of and connected to the entire passage. Not stand alone. I'd also add that in Wuest's Greek translation he notes that in verses 4, 5, and 16 it is implied when gathered in a "public assembly" but in verse 17, he describes the gathering mentioned in that verse as a "local assembly". Something to chew on.
I did ignore the rest of what you wrote, it was so far off base, if i tried to help you, i was sure you wouldn't listen. Which is why i did not read all of your reply
This scripture is talking about men and women praying out from under Gods order of authority. The head for the man is Jesus. The head for the women, is man. It’s always mature and respectful to not wear a hat in formal settings though. God doesn’t really care if you wear a hat.
Quote the Commandment where it states what you think. The ONLY Lord's Day is the one to come. You are misleading and are in SIN. NO Commandment about a hat.
@Kathryn Murray Happy Sabbath! I have no thoughts concerning gnosticism however, there is no Commandment on dress attire when gathering for a Holy convocation. Lest you want to take Paul's account concerning women. Not men! This is just man's traditions just as much as Sunday is the Lord's Day. That's a flat out lie coming from a guy who is against a man wearing a hat in a Holy convocation.
Antiquated. The church used to require head coverings for women especially. Men should remove whole preaching, praying, and prophesying. Otherwise it's ok.
I always wear my hat in church because I have a hair contion that makes my hair patchy and causes a distraction to the church one time I had a man come behind me and take my hat off and when he saw my head he was embarrassed and I just looked at him and said how dose that make you feel and he said I’m sorry and I said your welcome it made me so happy to see his face light up
According to the guy in the big leather chair, you, my friend, are in sin. (Of course, you aren't actually in sin. But watch out for the guy in the big leather chair. He'll try to convince you that you're going to hell.)
Louisianan here. We take our hats off to pray, eat dinner and sing the National Anthem. It’s about respect. However, many Church going women have short hair
A few years ago I took my kids and met up with my wife for an informal Wednesday dinner at our church. I’d had a hat on for the wind and put a nice ball cap on and went. She wasn’t happy that I’d even wear a cap into our church.
@@suelutz5364 agreed. It was a knee jerk reaction based on us growing up in the south. On a Sunday, men would never even wear hats to church or would take them off at the door if they did. Same with school.
@@RightResponseMinistries Same here. I don't think it's quite as bad as wearing something like sports jerseys or yoga pants to a church service, but it always strikes me as weird and questionable when I can't tell whether someone's a man or a woman until I see their face. I also think more guys should grow some sort of facial hair, but I digress...
Hip-like Pastors are so so foolish in the eyes of God Almighty and to the discerning saints! Wouldn’t it be wonderful to go back to reverence and holiness? So many hirlings pastors in the church! God help us!!✝️🙏🙏🏽🙏🏻✝️
No he didn't. The astronauts were in the command module. They only wore full space suits in that vehicle during launches and descents. Plus, the helmet visors were fixed. They weren't motorcycle helmets. If the helmets were on, so were the visors - they wouldn't be able to eat or drink anything.
An individual by the name of Troy W. Martin wrote an article that was published in the Journal of Biblical Literature (one of the premier biblical studies journals) where he argues for the meaning of Paul’s argument from nature using Ancient Greek medical texts. His argument is pretty water tight. It has nothing to do with wearing hats…
He argues from ancient Greco-Roman texts that Hippocrates (father of medicine) and Aristotle wrote that people living in the first century viewed hair as genitalia. It’s absurd to us living in 2023 but it’s how they thought. The paper is loaded with quotes demonstrating that it was the cutting edge science of the day. There’s a lot of detail I can’t provide here because of length but the paper brings a enormous amount of explanatory power to Paul’s argument in 1 Cor. Conclusion; be modest in church.
The exact phrase Paul uses saying that “hair was given to her as a covering” can be found in ancient medical text referring to woman’s hair as genitalia. The exact same phrase can also be found referencing testicles in males. The article also quotes Irenaeus arguing that point. The article can be found online and Dr. Michael Heiser does an episode on the naked Bible podcast about it. It’s really fascinating.
This is one of the funniest questions I've ever heard. The only thing funnier, perhaps, is that the guy in the big leather chair thinks it merits an earnest response. I was going to say Christian are a strange lot, but that would be an unfair overgeneralization. None of the actual Christians I know waste their time with these sorts of trivialities.
Absolutely, Wilson is wrong. The teaching is so clear ..Paul is clear. Women just don't want to obey the word and now people feel free to disobey the Word when we see it doesn't fit
sin might a strong word. Rebellious maybe but sin seems strong of a word for this especially in ignorance. Taken to the extreme one could argue then that Jesus was in sin for wearing a crown of thorns on his head while praying publicly. I would be quick to repudiate that, but is where hyper legalism can lead you.
Well, first, new law. Jesus was perfect according to the law of Moses. We are not under the law of Moses. Secondly, dishonoring the head is important to those who seek to be honorable. Sin? Possibly. But there's probably also times it's not really seen as sinful even if it is sub-optimal, much like David eating the bread that was only lawful for the priests. The situation and circumstances changed what would otherwise be punishable by death. We should be talking about getting rid of pastors who don't have kids and are in a second marriage more than talking about pastors wearing hats though. :0
@@fatalheart7382 exactly. Pastors without children, or are fighters, or have deep sin, or multiple wives, or a pastor who isn't a man at all; are all far worse than him praying with a cowboy hat on. I think it is very low on the priority list.
@@michaelclark2458 I understand. I do think the video is good and necessary though. Really, God is concerned with perfection and those verses are important in their examples of what they represent.
@@michaelclark2458 those are qualifications to be an elder. Why is that then extended to mean, “only elders are capable of performing certain tasks?” I
@@Eric-1776 To be a Pastor one must be first an elder according to Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3. Not all elders are pastors, but all pastors are to be elders.
@@michaelclark2458 I appreciate the responses. I’m looking for where The Bible says only pastors may baptize or administer communion. The position of pastor is vitally important, no argument here, I take issue with when they attempt to seize something not exclusively for them.
@@Eric-1776 That I would agree with you. I would say that ideally elders or deacons at a minimum should be administering the sacraments since deacon literally means servant. However I am not sure I have a dogmatic view on that other than I personally believe it should be done corporately and under the headship of the ordained elders/deacons/pastors. I don't have a supporting text for that per say though. However, with regard to baptism that is for every believer in my book see Matthew 28:18-20; we are commanded to go ye therefore teach and Baptize.
I would feel more obedient & peaceful to cover my head in church, but do not bc I don't want to be perceived as holier-than-thou or drawing any attention to myself. If it were the custom in my church, I would be delighted, but it is not.
I have a really discreet scarf from Garlands of Grace that I still wore at Lord’s Day worship at my sister’s church. My family didn’t notice it, so it didn’t cause the “holier than thou” issue (I honestly know how easy it is for me to fall into pride when I’m “following rules” so I didn’t want to bring attention to it, but I wanted to still cover). I was convicted about covering back at my old church where no one covers, but thought I was either wrong in my conviction or that the Lord would continue to show me that it was his conviction and I would obey when I was sure. When I got to our new church and saw many women covering, it was SO exciting to follow that conviction. My husband and I looked at scripture together and agreed that covering was definitely the right decision. I would say 30% of the the women at our church cover. I love covering so much. It distinguishes the day and sets it apart in my heart even more. If you want to cover, you should look at garlands of grace! There are many very unobvious options that allow for obedience without standing out!
It can definitely be done in a way that doesn't draw attention. I am the only one that covers at my church, and no one has ever said anything to me. I wear snood styles (tube scarves with the end roll in), wide lace headbands, etc.
@Jan Wells I understand how you feel. This almost held me back from obedience when I came under conviction a couple years ago. I would encourage you, if you have a husband, to bring the question to him. Talk it through together and follow his leadership. That is the truth that the symbol points to after all--the creation order, the role and nature of women, a husband's headship, etc. What I chose to do is to wear a hat that goes with my style of dress. Lately it's been a beret, but I have a different one for summer. People comment on the hats frequently, but the only one to recognize it as a covering was another woman who covers. Now that I've been doing this a little while, and have come to understand it a bit better, I wouldn't really mind if people realized I was covering my head. I am more confident in the knowledge that I am just trying to obey God, and if others find that bothersome, maybe they are coming under conviction themselves.
During covid, some ministers were denying people access to worship for not wearing the government's legislatiled covering over their face, but have no problem with disregarding God's command for a woman's head covering during worship. Interesting....
Nailed it. Pinning.
@@RightResponseMinistries Hi Joel, if you have time please see my response/comment below. Those are some questions that come to mind when I read the passage of scripture regarding women and head coverings. Thanks.
Exactly. Hat removal is so engrained in our culture that it happens as a sign of respect and reverence even in non spiritual events like the pledge of allegiance or singing a patriotic song. That a pastor cannot do this for preaching is really sad and displays an arrogance to Gods word.
I’ve written a letter to my pastor about this, but it’s still going on at that church.
I was told the other day that way back people would actually remove their hats when even riding by a church. That’s respect.
I CANNOT STAND when I see videos and pictures of the “pastor” (and I use that term very liberally) dressed up like an early 90s teenager. Very irreverent. They want the attention on them rather than God.
It’s even more pathetic when they are like in their late 40s & 50s, doing all they can to look “cool”. Some subconscious insecurity issues.
That's YOUR personal view. Like Paul's PERSONAL view in Corinthians 11:14. I have personal views also. I do not require others to follow it. But it's ok, just not to expect the same of others. Rea James ch. 2.
My view, is that a modern suit and tie, is the most ridiculous thing there is, but I hold no one to that. It is a personal uniform. Of choice. Not command. Hat? No. Can't make someone stumble. ( Trigger). Respect to God, is doing the great commission. Not clothes, hair, beard, shoes, when he told Peter 3 times, feed my sheep, he did not say, dress this way.
ruclips.net/p/PLaCIdQ1WhMdqx931lKukl7pNEfVawCWia&si=5BZb3I7umH2SXoSP
We have a local pastor who wears a hat and I don’t get it,, it is against scripture and brings attention to yourself, Paul told the woman to dress in a way that does not brings attention to their self ,,and also tells them to make sure they have a cover on their head and then not to have a cover on their head to the men as to the created order of authority it’s all within scripture and I don’t understand why it’s ignored
The teaching of headcoverings has brought a lot of security for me because growing up it was always stressed at home and in homeschooling circles that the men and boys remove hats for everything (prayer, national anthem, church, mealtimes) but it was never clear what women were to do. I always felt awkward when someone said to remove your hat unless they specified men only. As I grew older I thought, well, the Bible says I don't have to remove it so I won't (though I didn't believe in headcoverings). From that, I even had someone remove my hat for me during a prayer which I found quite disrespectful and confusing.
Now that I know the proper teaching surrounding headcoverings for women I am much more confident when I enter into a church service or some ceremony involving prayer. And the only thing that convinced me was reading the verses and realising that in his reasoning for it Paul points back to creation, and that is the same reasoning we (and Paul) use to show why women aren't to be pastors. If I believe one, I should believe the other.
someone removed your hat? 😯 that's just weird...
This year I started wearing a cap on a regular basis. As I wore it to church, I hesitated to wear it into the sanctuary. I wear it all the time in the machine shop at work. I like it. Makes me look good, I think. Plus there are other practical matters to wearing it. So. . .I did not choose to wear my cap into the sanctuary. It was something inside me. There were no rules, no one telling to or not to wear the hat. So that something inside me was probably more than custom but perhaps the holy spirit even in this small matter. Interesting.
Interesting indeed.
If I'm wearing a hat on a Sunday I take it off as soon as I step on the church property.
Thank you for holding to Scripture on this, Joel. Everywhere we have been, even in the Reformed churches, I am considered a legalist for covering my head before anyone can ask about my testimony, except in our Mennonite friends'' church. Almost all women inherently avoid me during times of talking and fellowship, where as my husband has no problem being greeted by the men in the same fellowship interchange time.
The cultural argument from churches just doesn't hold water! Then why not quit other practices outlined in the NT for the church if we are gonna pick and choose everytime something no longer seems 'in"?
Holds more water than you think.
This reminds me of a time when I invited a friend to church and she wore a headcovering; found out later that someone thought she was a Muslim. Woops. People assume weird things sometimes.
Perhaps they avoid you because of the old "if you believe a certain way you must be judging me for doing differently" train of thought, which is dumb. Maybe they just feel really awkward because of that visible difference, which is understandable even if it's pretty shallow.
@MtnGirl & Bunny I understand how you feel. I only recently started covering in Church, and one of my fears was that I would be judged as a legalist. But I usually wear a hat, so I think most people assume that it's just a fashion choice.
But as I thought about this, I realized that this fear was based on how I used to see women who covered before I had come to this conviction. I assumed they were judging me -- which was actually me judging them unjustly. This attitude (assuming we're being judged) can also reveal conviction of sin in our own heart. I was not firmly convinced that I was in the right. I never really understood 1 Cor. 11; I had no theological answer that made sense. When it came down to it, my reasoning was just that God wouldn't require something like that. "Because it doesn't make sense to me! And we're under grace, or something." This was a failure to submit to God on my part. When I did submit, I did so without understanding at first. Pastor Joel's exegesis has helped me make sense of this command, which I really appreciate, but I should have been obeying the whole time regardless. So both of those were heart issues that I've had to deal with; the judgmental heart and the disobedience.
These are things I keep in mind when the worry of how others see me resurfaces. I try to remember that their hearts are their business (and their husband's and God's, but that's a tangent). I am obeying God as well as I can and keeping a charitable heart toward others at different places in their walk. I don't need to stress about how they see me; because it is not true; I'm not being holier-than-thou. This leaves me free to obey joyfully.
If the women at your church are consciously avoiding you, maybe they are being convicted. Try making the first advance; smile warmly, show them that you're approachable, and maybe they will surprise you, or maybe God will use you to change their hearts. But don't let the perceived attitudes of others steal your joy. Obedient women should be the happiest women.
Hopefully this will change as return to scripture gathers momentum
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies on this!
If your pastor dresses, acts or talks like a rapper/hipster consider that a huge 'red flag.'
When I got saved I got saved because a man that has those “ red flags “ gave me the gospel. No one with a blazer nice clean cut Christian ever came to me to talk to me about the gospel. I see it differently.
When I was growing up, wearing a hat to church, for a woman, was either a fashion statement, or because she was Catholic. Men wore hats, and removed them for the National Anthem, etc. From my reading experience, men were expected to remove their hats when passing a church, or whenever a sign of respect was required.
There have been more and more sisters covering over the past few years in my church. Three years ago my wife was alone. There were probably five families this morning. It seems to be younger ladies, under 40yo.
Yes it is .it is not godly masculinity which in submission to Christ's is be seen woth a man NOT wearing a Covering WHILE leading in trenching and teaching which is prophesying and prayer . So that men who do that are bring Effeminate shwong themselves to be women who are to cover their head when prophesying and praying. Thus men are to not wear a Covering on their head to show Godd order as those who are the head, and women are to wear a Covering to show thry are not the head but under submission and authority of men. This is an apostolic ordinance for all churches given by Paul the apostle of Jesus Christ. Hence its the word of christ for all the churches of christ . For agsin it's basis is not culture but God's order for man and women in creation .
I started covering my head a few years ago, even though no one else does. And it generally feels awkward (even though most of the time my cover is just a big headband). But I figured that feeling awkward was a good practice for humility. But I also don't like sticking out, and don't want to draw attention to myself. Also, it is pretty easy to cover for Sunday services (and also for Friday morning prayer)....but I pray spontaneously a LOT throughout the day. I know the women of some church traditions cover all the time, but I'm not at that point for myself.
My big question in regard to this passage concerns the Jewish kippah that men wear. Observant Jews wear it everywhere, and they even provide one for any visitors who didn't bring their own (e.g. non-Jewish visitors). I know that Paul is talking to Gentiles in the Corinthian passage...but I just wonder how it can be "so obvious" that men should NOT cover their heads, when Jewish men DO cover. Would Paul be wearing a kippah as a Jew in his day? So that's weird to me. Also about men not wearing long hair. How long is "long"? One standard (in some churches today, or back in the 1950s) a man's hair shouldn't touch his collar. But our image of Jesus and the disciples is generally shoulder length hair...is that length "short enough"? And of course, any man taking a nazirite vow didn't cut his hair until the vow was completed. John the Baptist and Samson were lifelong nazirites...they must have had pretty long hair. I know prophets could be known for appearing pretty eccentric, but it is hard to think that their long hair would be "sin." So I think it is still hard to really separate out these verses from their culture and know what the standard is.
Regarding the kippah, I had that question, too. Turns out, Jewish men did not cover their heads in New Testament times. That tradition started shortly after that time.
Keep in mind that Jews have a lot of man made practices that don't have a scriptural basis and (with the exception of Messianic Jews) still reject Christ today.
Regarding "our image of Jesus and the disciples", unfortunately all we have are various imaginings of what they looked like, and nothing concrete.
As far as Nazarites and Nazarite vows, there were also certain foods seen as unclean, and animal sacrifices which thankfully are things that have been done away with
@@valerieehrenholz5508 Thanks. Do you have any insight about why Jewish men started covering their head? And then what about the headgear we see on the Pharisees, etc. in Jesus' day? And the high priest definitely had head gear, instituted for Aaron by God's direct revelation to Moses. Hmmm, or maybe that is why head coverings for men ended, since Jesus was the one and only high priest now.
@@myrealnameisjohndoe116 True...but I'm still a bit stuck on "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him?" Because I'm like...uh, did I miss something in Biology class? I know Paul is writing to people who know the context, while we are just guessing. But I definitely don't get the lesson that Paul thinks is so obvious. And then I'm still left wondering how long is long? And now I'm wondering if Jesus had taken a nazirite vow. (He turned water to wine...but did he drink it?) Or maybe he actually had short hair...maybe artistic renditions of him are assuming that he took a nazirite vow. Thanks for your interaction on this.
@@deemdepot well, I'm definitely no expert. I just refreshed myself on the information, so here's what I learned:
Jewish men started wearing head coverings about the time Jesus (so my previous statement was slightly off) as a way to honour God by keeping themselves separated from the divine presence that was over their heads. The practice does not come from Scripture and different sects view this custom differently in terms of how important it is to follow. Maybe that's why the Pharisees covered their heads. For those who practice it as law, it seems to be a way of pointing to how the man is extra righteous (some even say two hats are better than one). That would line up with the Pharisees' attitudes of the time, but this is only my theory.
As for the high priest's headgear, I know very little, but as his uniform was special, it did not inform the dress of ordinary men, so I don't think it would have much weight in this discussion. I'd have to look further into it, though.
Also, some women who lose their hair during cancer treatments often will wear a wig to cover their baldness. I wonder why?
I have a genuine question... why does the stance seem to be "the Bible is clear that women should cover their heads, but we won't place it in the category of sin that needs to be called out and will generally leave them alone about it". But on the matter of a man wearing a hat in church, we'll come straight out and call it blatant sin. No exceptions.
It just seems inconsistent to me. Why are we more firm about the man's covering than the women's lack of covering?
Question for Ps Joel or anyone else: Is there another doctrine or passage of Scripture where we have to use extra-biblical information to interpret a passage and form a doctrine?
Those Pastors etc who argue that women don't need to wear head coverings at church today say that when Paul wrote 1 Cor, that women at the time who would keep their head uncovered were either saying 'I'm available sexually', or they were one of the high class temple prostitutes. Are these ideas taught anywhere in Scripture? These Pastors would say women don't need to wear head covering today argue that we live in a different culture today, so women don't need to wear head covering at church.
Great point.
Wow, I feel dumb I never meditated on this passage. Good stuff! Quick question, what should the women cover with at church then? Thanks!
Some sort of headscarf, tichel, etc
I always cover with a fabric covering! :) I have a few from Garlands of Grace and sometimes I use inexpensive bandanas to cover my head for worship! :o)
Are we sure that this passage about women's head coverings aren't of cultural significance in ancient Rome and not of practical application today?
@@randomuser6306 There's debate to be had. I would argue it's up to the Sisters freedom and liberty. If she comes under the conviction of head covering, she should cover her head with no shame.
My wife orders headscarves from wrapunzel
It seems there is a spirit of competition. This ones better, im better, none, are better. The body is the body. When the hand starts telling the ear, he needs to be like him, things go awry.
Although they is no where in the Bible that states not to wear a hat... Keep in mind what is the CHURCH and Who's is the HEAD of church? The bible says the church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus Christ is the HEAD of the Church. If Jesus is LORD of all to you and you are going to be with his His Bride, how would you present yourself?
Ummmm..... 1 Corinthians 11:4
We are not the bride of Christ
“ If a woman does not cover her head she should have her hair cut off,” means that if a woman does not have the covering of male authority over her, she may as well shave her head in disgrace and if that’s a shameful thing, she can put a hat on her head to cover up the shame. And men need to stay under the authority of their head (Christ), and not ‘cover’ Christ because man was made in the image and the glory of God and women is the glory of man.
Never knew this! But explains why some woman at our church wear hats!
This scripture is not talking about a physical hat but is talking about man and women being out from under authority while praying. It’s always respectful to not wear hats in formal settings though.
Has anyone heard the late Mike Heisers's explantion of this perpetually confusing passage?
I believe in many parts of the world, the head covering is still absolutely required. But not because of the garment itself. It’s a sign of submission. Verse 10 says, “For this reason, a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head.” Paul himself says it’s a symbol or sign of submission so I think that’s the strongest exegetical argument. In our context, it would be like married women taking off their wedding rings and acting as if they aren’t married when they go to church.
Now, as a sign of respect, men should absolutely remove hats when praying or preaching.
So why can't my wedding ring be a sign of submission to my husband for these purposes?
@@suelutz5364 that was my point. In our culture, women wearing literal headscarves would look pretty out of place. In many cultures around the world though, the headscarf is still very much in use.
We ought not worship our traditions, however, that is a far cry from observing them with an understanding of why we hold to them. On that note, even though I DESPISED being stuffed into very uncomfortable, restrictive clothing that prevented me from wallering in filth on sundays as little boys are wont to do, i understood early WHY. Why dress up for school? For a job interview? For a date with a girl i want to win? Because the exterior reflects (or should) express our interior or our heart's attitude and inentions towards the situation. Never mind the teacher, classmates, employer or possible future wife's opinion of me, in comparison to how God sees me
Regarding head coverings and women....I do believe that Pastor Joel is right that this passage from Paul does convey that women should wear head coverings. But there is some important context within the passage that seems to always be left out and ignored. First of all, it was a local custom in Corinth for women to wear head coverings as a sign of subordination and submission to men (similar to the Roman and Jewish customs where women wore a head covering/shawl). That fact in and of itself is important, because women wearing headcovers in subordination to men is obviously not something that is practiced in our culture and therefore wouldn't carry the same weight and meaning. It is interesting that while addressing the question about the hip pastor, Joel appeals to culture as part of his response to argue that men know to take off their hats to pray, but ignores culture when reading the head coverings passage and how it applies to women. I don't think Joel would be ok with a woman wearing a baseball cap in church as a covering, as most of us wouldn't. Even though it is a "covering", that type of hat would actually be taken as a sign of disrespect in our culture. Paul says to greet brothers and sisters in Christ with a holy kiss (which is repeated 4 times in the NT), which we of course do not do. Cultural context matters. But giving Joel the benefit of the doubt, lets say that this passage does apply to us as a command, regardless of culture. The text specifically says "when praying and prophesying" women are to wear head coverings (1 Cor 11:4-5). Why do we ignore this? I know Joel believes women should not speak aka teach/preach in church (as do I - 1 Tim 2:12, 1 Cor 14:34). So what is the text on head coverings saying (1 Cor 11:2-16)? Is it saying that when women teach and preach (prophesy) and pray in church they are to cover their heads? It cannot be saying that if you believe that women are not to do so in church, or else we are to acknowledge a contradiction in Paul's writings (which means that, ironically, if you believe that women are not to pray or prophesy in church, one could argue that it therefore logically follows that this text is talking about everywhere BUT church. I don't believe that this passage is saying that, but the point stands). Then is it saying in public places when a woman proclaims Christ to unbelievers, she is to cover her head? Is it saying that anytime a woman prays, including in her home, she is to wear a head covering? What about silent and/or private prayers? I think not. Simply boiling the text down to say that Doug Wilson is wrong, and especially wrong about verse 15 (which I agree with Joel on, although I highly doubt that is Doug's only argument) and that therefore the text is explicitly saying women should wear head coverings in church today fails to take into account important context and implications in the passage. I think the point of the text when you consider these things is that women in the Body of Christ are to show signs of respect, subordination, and distinction to men in church (and outside of church gatherings) when it comes to Christian order and proclaiming of His word.
Excellent comment. This guy contradicts himself regularly so he hardly notices anymore.
1 cor 11:16 states clearly that the head covering is for all churches, ' we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God'. No church anywhere in the world, is authorized to ignore the head covering rule. V. 16 is quietly emphatic. A mandate.
@@johornbuckle5272 either you didn't understand my point, or skimmed over my comment (which would be fair, it's way too long). Even if we set aside cultural norms at the time (and as another commenter pointed out - it was also understood in that culture that a head covering also conveyed marriage v being "sexually available" ie prostitution) and assume it is a mandate for today's churches, my point was, Paul says first (in 1 Cor 11:4-5) when a woman "prays or prophesies", she should cover her head. That's the context. So either you have to acknowledge Paul is contradicting himself in saying that women can in fact prophesy/preach/teach in church (after being clear in other letters they can't 1 Tim 2:12, 1 Cor 14:34) and when they do they should cover their head, or you have to consider he wasn't talking about actual local church assembly. Either way, you have to acknowledge the command is only for when a women prays or prophesies, not all the time. Why do you skip right over the women praying and prophesying part? What does that mean? How can someone read v 2-16 and jump straight to the conclusion that women must wear head coverings at all times in church? V 16 is in light of and connected to the entire passage. Not stand alone. I'd also add that in Wuest's Greek translation he notes that in verses 4, 5, and 16 it is implied when gathered in a "public assembly" but in verse 17, he describes the gathering mentioned in that verse as a "local assembly". Something to chew on.
@@Ztaylor19 - correct, nothing to add there.
I did ignore the rest of what you wrote, it was so far off base, if i tried to help you, i was sure you wouldn't listen. Which is why i did not read all of your reply
I would have to question a pastor leading worship decked out like a gangsta/hipster in the first place but certainly ought to at least ditch the hat.
This scripture is talking about men and women praying out from under Gods order of authority. The head for the man is Jesus. The head for the women, is man. It’s always mature and respectful to not wear a hat in formal settings though. God doesn’t really care if you wear a hat.
Quote the Commandment where it states what you think. The ONLY Lord's Day is the one to come. You are misleading and are in SIN. NO Commandment about a hat.
What? Read Paul's letter to the church! The physical matters otherwise your a gnostic
@Kathryn Murray Happy Sabbath! I have no thoughts concerning gnosticism however, there is no Commandment on dress attire when gathering for a Holy convocation. Lest you want to take Paul's account concerning women. Not men! This is just man's traditions just as much as Sunday is the Lord's Day. That's a flat out lie coming from a guy who is against a man wearing a hat in a Holy convocation.
@@hanzschaggi4254 1 corinthians 11 is clear. The early church thought so as well 🤷♂️
Head coverings for women were universally practiced.
No they are not in sin, they just look cringe
Antiquated. The church used to require head coverings for women especially. Men should remove whole preaching, praying, and prophesying. Otherwise it's ok.
What are your thoughts on greeting each other with a holy kiss? There’s many verses about this and I’ve never seen it done before.
Thank you for this Pastor Joel!
I always wear my hat in church because I have a hair contion that makes my hair patchy and causes a distraction to the church one time I had a man come behind me and take my hat off and when he saw my head he was embarrassed and I just looked at him and said how dose that make you feel and he said I’m sorry and I said your welcome it made me so happy to see his face light up
According to the guy in the big leather chair, you, my friend, are in sin. (Of course, you aren't actually in sin. But watch out for the guy in the big leather chair. He'll try to convince you that you're going to hell.)
Louisianan here. We take our hats off to pray, eat dinner and sing the National Anthem. It’s about respect. However, many Church going women have short hair
Common sense here; rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft....
IT doesn't matter because God looks at the heart.
Gnosticism....nothing physical matters. Now we have trans people all over because nothing physical matters!
he is there to preach the gospel , bring people to repentance and not being that cool pastor I dont want a lukewarm pastor
A few years ago I took my kids and met up with my wife for an informal Wednesday dinner at our church. I’d had a hat on for the wind and put a nice ball cap on and went. She wasn’t happy that I’d even wear a cap into our church.
Wednesday night dinner/Bible study isn't Sunday worship.
Wednesday night Bible study/prayer meeting is not the same as Sunday worship. But I think socially men remove their hats inside or to eat.
@@suelutz5364 agreed. It was a knee jerk reaction based on us growing up in the south. On a Sunday, men would never even wear hats to church or would take them off at the door if they did. Same with school.
Where do you stand on pastors (or men in general) with long hair?
I stand with 1 Corinthians 11. It is shameful.
@@RightResponseMinistries Same here. I don't think it's quite as bad as wearing something like sports jerseys or yoga pants to a church service, but it always strikes me as weird and questionable when I can't tell whether someone's a man or a woman until I see their face. I also think more guys should grow some sort of facial hair, but I digress...
Hip-like Pastors are so so foolish in the eyes of God Almighty and to the discerning saints!
Wouldn’t it be wonderful to go back to reverence and holiness? So many hirlings pastors in the church! God help us!!✝️🙏🙏🏽🙏🏻✝️
When astronaut Buzz Aldrin took Communion on the moon, he kept his space helmet on.
No he didn't. The astronauts were in the command module. They only wore full space suits in that vehicle during launches and descents. Plus, the helmet visors were fixed. They weren't motorcycle helmets. If the helmets were on, so were the visors - they wouldn't be able to eat or drink anything.
An individual by the name of Troy W. Martin wrote an article that was published in the Journal of Biblical Literature (one of the premier biblical studies journals) where he argues for the meaning of Paul’s argument from nature using Ancient Greek medical texts. His argument is pretty water tight. It has nothing to do with wearing hats…
What is his argument?
He argues from ancient Greco-Roman texts that Hippocrates (father of medicine) and Aristotle wrote that people living in the first century viewed hair as genitalia. It’s absurd to us living in 2023 but it’s how they thought. The paper is loaded with quotes demonstrating that it was the cutting edge science of the day. There’s a lot of detail I can’t provide here because of length but the paper brings a enormous amount of explanatory power to Paul’s argument in 1 Cor. Conclusion; be modest in church.
The exact phrase Paul uses saying that “hair was given to her as a covering” can be found in ancient medical text referring to woman’s hair as genitalia. The exact same phrase can also be found referencing testicles in males. The article also quotes Irenaeus arguing that point. The article can be found online and Dr. Michael Heiser does an episode on the naked Bible podcast about it. It’s really fascinating.
How about going sockless with loafers to church...am I ok with that. I am a man.
My head is almost 24/7 covered with a beanie inside because HVAC gives me painful migraines that make me vomit 🤮
This is one of the funniest questions I've ever heard. The only thing funnier, perhaps, is that the guy in the big leather chair thinks it merits an earnest response. I was going to say Christian are a strange lot, but that would be an unfair overgeneralization. None of the actual Christians I know waste their time with these sorts of trivialities.
It just looks dumb. Even if it is not sin
Absolutely, Wilson is wrong. The teaching is so clear ..Paul is clear. Women just don't want to obey the word and now people feel free to disobey the Word when we see it doesn't fit
sin might a strong word. Rebellious maybe but sin seems strong of a word for this especially in ignorance. Taken to the extreme one could argue then that Jesus was in sin for wearing a crown of thorns on his head while praying publicly. I would be quick to repudiate that, but is where hyper legalism can lead you.
Well, first, new law. Jesus was perfect according to the law of Moses. We are not under the law of Moses. Secondly, dishonoring the head is important to those who seek to be honorable. Sin? Possibly. But there's probably also times it's not really seen as sinful even if it is sub-optimal, much like David eating the bread that was only lawful for the priests. The situation and circumstances changed what would otherwise be punishable by death.
We should be talking about getting rid of pastors who don't have kids and are in a second marriage more than talking about pastors wearing hats though. :0
@@fatalheart7382 exactly. Pastors without children, or are fighters, or have deep sin, or multiple wives, or a pastor who isn't a man at all; are all far worse than him praying with a cowboy hat on. I think it is very low on the priority list.
@@michaelclark2458 I understand. I do think the video is good and necessary though. Really, God is concerned with perfection and those verses are important in their examples of what they represent.
As the heart is refined, the result of love for God on the interior, is shown on the exterior through obedience to the Word. This is NOT legalism.
@@michaelclark2458 pastors without children?
Could you point me to where “must be ordained” us found in scripture?
Titus 1:5
@@michaelclark2458 those are qualifications to be an elder. Why is that then extended to mean, “only elders are capable of performing certain tasks?”
I
@@Eric-1776 To be a Pastor one must be first an elder according to Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3. Not all elders are pastors, but all pastors are to be elders.
@@michaelclark2458 I appreciate the responses. I’m looking for where The Bible says only pastors may baptize or administer communion. The position of pastor is vitally important, no argument here, I take issue with when they attempt to seize something not exclusively for them.
@@Eric-1776 That I would agree with you. I would say that ideally elders or deacons at a minimum should be administering the sacraments since deacon literally means servant. However I am not sure I have a dogmatic view on that other than I personally believe it should be done corporately and under the headship of the ordained elders/deacons/pastors. I don't have a supporting text for that per say though. However, with regard to baptism that is for every believer in my book see Matthew 28:18-20; we are commanded to go ye therefore teach and Baptize.
Yes
Jesus, John the Baptist, Moses ect. Definitely didn’t have long hair 🙃
I would feel more obedient & peaceful to cover my head in church, but do not bc I don't want to be perceived as holier-than-thou or drawing any attention to myself. If it were the custom in my church, I would be delighted, but it is not.
I have a really discreet scarf from Garlands of Grace that I still wore at Lord’s Day worship at my sister’s church. My family didn’t notice it, so it didn’t cause the “holier than thou” issue (I honestly know how easy it is for me to fall into pride when I’m “following rules” so I didn’t want to bring attention to it, but I wanted to still cover). I was convicted about covering back at my old church where no one covers, but thought I was either wrong in my conviction or that the Lord would continue to show me that it was his conviction and I would obey when I was sure. When I got to our new church and saw many women covering, it was SO exciting to follow that conviction. My husband and I looked at scripture together and agreed that covering was definitely the right decision. I would say 30% of the the women at our church cover. I love covering so much. It distinguishes the day and sets it apart in my heart even more. If you want to cover, you should look at garlands of grace! There are many very unobvious options that allow for obedience without standing out!
It can definitely be done in a way that doesn't draw attention. I am the only one that covers at my church, and no one has ever said anything to me. I wear snood styles (tube scarves with the end roll in), wide lace headbands, etc.
Do you seek to please man or God?
@Jan Wells I understand how you feel. This almost held me back from obedience when I came under conviction a couple years ago. I would encourage you, if you have a husband, to bring the question to him. Talk it through together and follow his leadership. That is the truth that the symbol points to after all--the creation order, the role and nature of women, a husband's headship, etc.
What I chose to do is to wear a hat that goes with my style of dress. Lately it's been a beret, but I have a different one for summer. People comment on the hats frequently, but the only one to recognize it as a covering was another woman who covers.
Now that I've been doing this a little while, and have come to understand it a bit better, I wouldn't really mind if people realized I was covering my head. I am more confident in the knowledge that I am just trying to obey God, and if others find that bothersome, maybe they are coming under conviction themselves.
@@kaylar3197 Amen sister!
Respect.
Let us follow the example of Islam 🙃
Yes
No discussion
Yes
And You’re in sin for attend this church
Pastor does your church practice this ?
This was my question. Joel, how does this play out in your church?
Same. Do the women cover their heads in the church he pastors?
@@tuesdaynight9725 thank you!
His church does know his position but doesn’t force anyone to do it. Pastor Joel’s wife does wear a covering.
Off with your wigs gentlemen
Disrespectful