PCA Spotlight: The four stages of IMS bearing failure
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Last year we took a trip out to Flat 6 Innovations research and development facility in Georgia to learn all about the intermediate shaft (IMS) and the IMS bearing in Porsche’s first water-cooled flat sixes. These two engine components have proven problematic in some Porsche 911s, Boxsters, and Caymans from model years 1997 through 2008. In this video, we explain the four stages of IMS bearing failure.
I would think that a twice a year Blackstone Labs oil analysis would be very helpful in this case because:
1) you know if fuel contamination is at a significant level
2) you know of water contamination also is at a significant level, both of these appear to be implicated in the breakdown of the seal on the sealed bearing.
3) if that bearing is starting to wear, it should show up in increased wear metals in the oil analysis.
This was painful to watch and not because of the IMS failure. The information given is exactly the information I would expect to see from a person who is trying to sell a product. It almost reminded me of those QVC reenactments.
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Inflict enough fear and people will buy it. OMG, I need this right? I better get this? Over at TuneRS Mototorsports in South FL, inventor of the D.O.F. KIT, showed me 5 gal buckets full of good condition IMS bearings removed from People's cars that came in for the IMS upgrade. Not saying these bearings don't fail but, think about how much $ is spent in advertising, videos, seminars, magazine adds, to inflict fear, plus educate and then tell you their bearing is the best in the market. Marketing and revenue.
I noticed one thing in the first part of the video. He said 90% of the bearings they replaced so far are were in stage one (very very light wear). Which to be honest, is probably completely normal at 50-100k of engine use. But make no mistake, if they didn't replace it the engine would have surely failed in
Raby has a bit of his theory here. Wht we do know for sure is that the double row bearing has twice the load capacity of the single row.. Because the double row is a lot less relatively loaded relative to its capacity it will not only wear out slower but also generates somewhat less local contact heat under load since the form changes less. If you look at the bearing life spans, halving the relative loading more than doubles the life due the Wohler type fatigue curves. Then considering the debris damage probability double row can also take more since it is always fail-safe in its nature. It simply does not create double the new debris simply because the loading is half of the single row. The Hertz pressure between the contact surfaces is half of the single row. So, the new debrii is partly caused by the old debris and partly by normal load wear. This normal load wear is a less in a double row. I think what Jake means to say is that if the oil circulation is already contaminated beyond a threshold it does not really matter what bearing you have - you are in the danger zone. However, in a situation like that I’d rather have a double row than a singel row when I drive to the garage to dismantle my engine.
In my opinion, IMS bearing issues are mostly internet hysteria, fanned by IMS bearing purveyors.
The factory IMS bearing is a sealed bearing so it is not covered with oil. So oil changes do not affect it. They go bad due to it being a sealed bearing and it just fails due to time. Not lack of oil changes. NO OIL GOES TO IT! The fix is a redesigned metal bushing with a housing that has a new designed oil feed line put on that was never there before.
This series of videos makes no sense to me. The smallest version of that IMS bearing can handle 10 times the load and twice the speed seen in the application. That means that the issue is not the bearing itself rather it is a question related to lubrication. It is the lubrication that is failing that bearing. That´s the real issue.
Very valid point. Porsche engineers are not fools, and basic bearing specs for load and speed confirming what you state are easily found on the net. I'll go one step further; it's either deteriorating lubrication and/or oil contamination that can destroy a roller bearing. There are no stats on this, but if there were, I would not be surprised to see a correlation between bore scoring and bearing failure. I imagine bore scoring to be more common in cars pulling away in 2nd gear and applying high load at low rpm, possibly also when still cold. And guess in what type of 996's IMS failures are are most frequent (according to the data in this class action law suit)? TipTronic's.... And additionally: switching to the single row bearing largely coincided with switching to the Lokasil2 type cylinder bores, in 2002, with the 3.6 M96.03 engine...which suffer more from bore scoring (or so the internet claims...). So go figure. It's not the bearing as such, but the oil contamination coming from the bore scoring that's the primary culprit, is my humble theory anyway. Keep an eye on your bores, and if they are cool, then your bearing probably is as well.
Real enthusiast and an expert.. great video 🔬
Jake Raby and his team are the best in the business when it comes to Porsche engine repair. More importantly to a customer, they are understanding, fair and stand behind their work. I would even go so far as to say they are even better than Porsche when it comes to the M96/M97 engines -- and the newer ones as well!!!
Valuable information for those that own or considering owning a M96/M97 based Porsche. Thank you to PCA and Flat6 for producing it!
Long video, but the information is valuable enough. I think this IMS problem is overhyped. Jacob states he dealt with this ' thousands' of times. I find that hard to believe, i guess it's just a matter of speak from him, but if he means business: i would like to see prove of that. If these Porsches were the time bombs the internet claims them to be at this stage of their lives a handful of Porsches from this generation should blow up daily around the globe. Thats simply not the case. That doesn't mean there is no issue with this bearing, there is, potentially. Everyone saying 'no oil goes to it'; yes, true, because originally there isn't, its sealed after all. But when the seal wears off the oil does get into the bearing. This can potentially be the beginning of the road to ' stage 4'. as suggested in this video. I think this is why fresh oil on a more regular basis is a first very good step to prevent a lot of bad. I feel the most wise thing is to keep in mind the tips about the first signals and keep refreshing your oil and filters, analyse the filter, analyse the oil on a regular basis and you will keep a good track of whats happening. And of course; when you have to replace a clutch or other maintenance which gives access to the IMS, it is probably a good idea to replace it at that time.
And keep in mind the internet is very good on putting emphasis on all the 'horror' stories about cars, and if you experience one; of course; you are devestated and want others to know. The thousands of people with no issue at all that just drive cars and have fun will not raise their voices about it. If you take the internet as your reference, research on any car will result in you not wanting to have it because of the various (horrendous) problems that can occur. Again; that doesn't mean there is no issue, but please put everything into perspective, do your own research, use common sense and make your own informed choice on this matter.
we appreciate the feedback Robert. Thanks for watching.
Great video, but aside from stage 4, more visual aids would be great. Oil analysis, metal shavings, cam journals, sleeves, crank bearings, cylinder walls and pistons at each level.
So, if someone does 5K oil changes and sends the oil in for UOAs, on a 996 with a dual-row bearing, is it reasonably likely that IMS bearing failure would be caught before it does any significant damage?
If duel row, spend more time driving your porsche through a drive through takeaway. Cool. Got it!
First off, great video. One of the most informative ever seen.
Just by the way, several years back I was in the market for a 911, until a friend of a friend warned me about the IMs failures, since he actually experienced one. Totally changed my mindset. Still love the cars and the design, even though maybe not justified with the later models, I am still leery. I know there were some class action suits against PNA, but I didn't really follow up on anything.
You were sidetracked, It's a phenomenal model and a phenomenal car !
I had to change my timing belt on my Honda every 100k miles. I knew it was preventative maintenance. I knew if I did not change it, my engine could blow up. Didn’t prevent me from owning my Honda for decades which saved enough money to fuel my Porsche addiction.
I also just changed the timing belt on my wife’s Lexus. Doesn’t prevent me from owning it either, knowing that if I didn’t do it, the engine might blow up.
This whole IMS thing is blown way out of proportion. Buy your cars maintain them enjoy - quit denying yourself of ownership
I’ve seen vids from some Porsche mechanics that prove there was not indication of bearing failure until they removed original one from the engine then saw borderline catastrophic failure from the condition it was in. Common denominator, if it’s the original bearing make sure it was replaced before you purchase the vehicle. I believe LN supplies a tag and attaches it next to the vin # plate on cars that they upgrade.
Thanks for sharing. Be sure to subscribe.
Great video..! Thanks for that valuable information...
Why did Porsche not use either a plain bearing with oil supply or a roller bearing as used on the Evinrude Etec outboard? These engines use roller bearings on both ends of the connecting rods and main bearings, and do not have failures like this!
Oil supply augmentation is unnecessary as that bearing mostly sits in sump oil, anyway
It's not a time bomb, videos like this create unnecessary worry for owners. I drive a 1999 996 and it is normal to find very fine particles of metal in the oil filter from the aluminum casing. I have talked to countless qualified Porsche techs, and the issue is not as serious as the internet makes it. Shops and part makers just want your business, and this is a great way to do it.
Unless you find 20+ shards of MAGNETIC metal that are bigger than the tip of a needle, then you should get it changed.
Don't worry and enjoy your Porsche.
You could change the oil ten times you'll flush it out. Then put the new bearing in. Transmissions with bad bearings make for oil with a silver cast.
This video while informative made my teeth dance. Twenty five minutes of endless repetition of basically more simply stated failure signs. Brevity would equal more clarity imho. Also agree with past comments re the true culprit is inadequate oil flow. The bearing does not simply wear prematurely on its own. What we ALL would greatly appreciate is a table or graph shoeing these failures in 912s and Boxsters by year and mileage and by type of beatings from first models through 2008.
Sorry .. bad typing .. 911s obviously not 912.
Great I was in the market for a used PORSCHE Boxster for my wife. You just basically told me not to buy a Porsche! Gross engine design IMO
A very informative series of videos.
I've seen were you remove the bearing seal and just let the bearing sit in oil. The bearing has a cover at the rear of the engine, so no leak and the bearing is then just sitting in engine all the time.
So why does the oil filter not catch the debris?
Very good question, so just analyze the filter for metal shaving
i've changed my oil a week a ago, findin very fine metal debris in all the lamells of the oilfilter. it looked like copper. now i'm getting quite afraid that my 2003 boxster 2.7l is going to explode any time i'm driving it to work. it has 197.000kilometers on it, though i don't know wether it's the first engine in it or not.
TheWolvesCurse did it Xplode ?
Change that IMS bearing ASAP. Spend some money now to avoid spending a whole lot more later. And not much later it sounds.
Jacob what brand of oil filter do you suggest?
Hello, i have one question , i have a 986 on a boxster from 1999, with aprox 150.000km, for 3 years, in year one i have made the change oil with liquid moly, the apropriate viscousness, i think 40w5, next year i change with portguese Galp 40w5, and next year i am planing to change the oil with mobil one 40w5, i normaly go for 7.000km each year, and change oil every year, but i want to know your advice in the oil brand plz, thks
How to make this inspection via a scope ?
997.1 4S. I alerted on something Jake said early in the presentation. “Oils mixed with other oils.” Can I safely assume this means adding a quart of some other brand between oil changes? My mechanic doesn’t like to use Mobil 1, and I’m certain that prior services were at a dealer. Cause for concern, or not?
This video could have been done in 5 minutes so a sealed bearing shouldn't be susceptible to debris
If only they could develop some sort of oil filtration device that somehow cleaned the circulatimg oil during normal operation. And if only there was a device that could be added to the sump plug that magically attracted ferrous debris as well.
Oh well, I guess for now the only option is to line Jake's pockets with gold until the above devices are discovered.
Btw, my 1999 dual row, 100K 3.4 996 IMS bearing was in perfect condition when checked recently ... by the sound of it, probably literally the only surviving one in existence. Sigh.
Why not use a metal shielded bearing instead of rubber shielded so it can't be eaten away or shrink ???
So I guess I'm driving a time bomb! Is really worth it?
yes it is..dude just get the ims replaced thats it
then do it again at anther 80k miles
It's not a time bomb, videos like this create unnecessary worry for owners. I drive a 1999 996 and it is normal to find very fine particles of metal in the oil filter from the aluminum casing. I have talked to countless qualified Porsche techs, and the issue is not as serious as the internet makes it. Shops and part makers just want your business, and this is a great way to do it.
Unless you find 20+ shards of MAGNETIC metal that are bigger than the tip of a needle, then you should get it changed.
Don't worry and enjoy your Porsche.
How often does an IMS Bearing fail in an automatic vs manual? I’m looking at a 2003 base 996 that had the bearing issue fixed in 2015 at 50k miles. Car only has 54k today. Based on the info below is the risk of failure the same?
In 2015 a Porsche dealer did:
Vehicle serviced
- Flywheel/flexplate replaced
- Two tires mounted
- Engine oil filler cap/seal replaced
- Oil filler tube replaced
- Oil and filter changed
- Intermediate shaft bearing replaced
- Front crankshaft oil seal replaced
- Emissions inspection performed
- Emissions or safety inspection performed
So if im hearing correctly? ride her hard and put er' away wet? everytime...
great video and very informative...in the 90's with the 928's coming off of lease saw lower residual value's
as low as 12k after 4 years ushered in a new buyer...folks with very little money could now buy a 80k rocket
and with that led to very little integrity in a porsche buyer and thgus a ton of low maintained cars with a ton of problems
ie; torque tubes and snapping timing belts...yes belt. so i am hoping with all of the new Porsche buyers we can maintain
an integrity of disclosure with your car...pass it on to the next guy with integrity and it will lead to less karmic energy
and more of our beautiful porsches on the road running like champs and the garages looking for part time work!!!
namaste friends in Porsche
What gets me is how Porsche can live with themselves on building a time bomb !!!!Thank god I only drive Air Cooled Porsches !
Air cooled 911s had their failures, too. The timing chain tensioner was notorious for that. Fortunately, improvements were made.
Edward Matthews correctly stated sir. I fell in Love with Porsche around 1970 and purchased a 1967 912 in 1971. Nothing else really existed when it comes to autos. Purchased 1970 911S in 1973 and the piece of shit 1979 924. Porsche never should have put their name on the vehicle. Also the dealer ripped u off like you had a real Porsche vehicle. My personal favorites are 1972-73 and 1984-1988 911's. There is nothing like driving a 1972-73 car. The sounds and the ride, road feel were incomparable. I really dreamed about the 911.
Totally agree. Interesting that the US Attorney General went after Volkswagen about the diesel emission scam which didn't harm the consumer but the government could win a very HUGE dollar judgement. Whereas, with the Porsche IMS disaster (same company) the consumer lost the money and the government gets nothing. Oh yeah. Sorry, that makes sense now that I wrote it out. Govt don't care about the individual. Great Video. Thank you for making it.
I heard that? Me too but i did buy a used Boxster and i love it. There is common sense, wisdom and wage the odds based on how much money is invested in the vehicle already. If you buy a $3000 2.7 boxster and invest very little after that per year n last you 5 yrs and driven often? You got your money's worth. But preventative maintanence of course is best!
look at the clutch mechanism on a '70/'71 911. There should have been a public stoning of Porsche management/engineering for that piece of shit
Sounds like IMS failure is a crap shoot. It might never fail but if it does you are looking at a new engine.
A sealed ball bearing was never meant to be ran in the atmosphere Porsche has exposed it to.
So part of maintenance is to eat fast food? hahaha When else do you go through a drive through?
5% of boxsters-996-cayman affected: 100% scared owners. GG PORSCHE.
Bottom line. Avoid getting a Porsche with an ims. Unless you have a lot of spare money to fix it.
If your mechanically savvy the bearings literally 70bucks. All the price is in the labour at a dealer/I dependant.
sad these videos have to exist in the first place, i was so gonna buy a beautiful 03 Boxster S with 68 thousand miles on it for $11,500 from a local dealer. i thought Porsche was better than this... oh well C5 it is
A little remark, a statement at the beginning of this sermon is GET THIS FOLKS PLAY IT BACK LISTEN
"Most of the time we don't find failures."
Many cars go on to record thousands of miles with NO failures.There does not seem to be any statistics to explain how likely the bearing failure is.
Positives and there are not many with this guy, = "keep using the correct oil in each change" which is pretty standard advise.
Stage 1 the seal is broken and oil gets in.
Stage 2 no noise. but to the highly trained ear they can hear things? the particles can be microscopic and cannot be seen ordinarily but it is likely to show up in your oil filter and you can send the photo's to them and they can identify what that wear is likely to be.
These guy's are the kiss of death by assuming that the IMS bearing is absolutely going to go when there is NO data to confirm any likelihood).
So PORCHE must love this guy not and lots of people just like me. He is making out that this is the worst car you could ever buy but guess what, he is in the business of flogging you his services.
Stage 3. Oh it's all too late doom and gloom because it all might not be saveable your car has already blown before it reaches Stage 4
Now the bespectacled guy said a low mileage car doesn't turn him on (frankly I shudder to think what might turn him on) he says he sees a lot of problems from cars that weren't driven (what is that supposed to mean? but the presenter sensibly intervenes to offer some hope to me and hopefully others by arguing the seal might never have been replaced but why only low mileage cars and not high mileage cars? the answer is our bespectacled friend cannot know because there is no data available to support his philosophy yet he says he is "much more comfortable with an 80,000 mile car "because it is more proven" what baloney!.
He says "If someone knows what I know" I'm sorry he loses me here for the reasons I hope I have explained.
Despite these doom peddlers who are to negative to listen to keep common sense to hand, keep regular oil changes, and at every clutch change get the bearing or the seal replaced or at least checked out and enjoy your Boxster the greatest sports car ever manufactured yes I said that and I am not even a German.
Very helpful thanks for posting keep up the good vids...Yeshua (Jesus Christ) is the way
The bearing leaves they Porsche factory in stage one whohahahahaha
Buy a lotus Evora instead, better car all round.🇬🇧👍