Thank you for covering this topic! I work for a ministry that is very much in the independent charismatic world. I grew up in contexts far removed from any pentecostal or charismatic strain, and while I shifted towards the inevitable mix of continuationist-Calvinist-Baptist inevitable for a certain generation of guys heavily influenced by John Piper, I've not been able to have much overview of the broader charismatic world, despite being pretty ecumenical in my readings. Then I listened to Charismatic Revival Fury and got handed a new concept that felt really weird considering my new(-ish, I've been here over a year and love it) context.
Thanks for your comment! I (Luke) have a similar amount of influence to you as I went to a reformed seminary and was pretty influenced by some of the thinking of folks like Piper, Carson, Storms, etc. I never really fully got into the hardcore Calvy world, but appreciated a lot of it! Welcome to our charismatic circles though! The Charismatic Revival Fury was INCREDIBLE. I'm hoping we can get Taylor on an episode... which reminds me... he told me to email him... so doing that now! Thanks for the reminder!
All that said, as I'm listening, I'm not sure that the scope of what's being talked about is sufficiently clear. Like, references to Scott and Bethel are brought up early on. I would have appreciated a few minutes early on that provided that scope, who you are talking about and who you aren't. Like, looking out at the whole Charismatic world, how would I tell the difference between people strongly influenced by Wagner's NAR and the others? This was a super helpful analsysis of what you call "the NAR world" but I would have liked to have it laid out what exactly that world was. Maybe a brief historical narrative of when the divide happens or how IHOP, etc. fit into the bigger NAR picture. That said, I get it. I have an M.Div from one of the SBC seminaries, and my ability to just start going in on a strain of baptist history and not knowing what things are obvious common knowledge and which things I need to explain is very real and hard to overcome.
@@loganhurley5590 If you wanna know the history on the Alan Scott stuff... we've done four or five episodes on that. I think in the future we'll probably dive into more detail on NAR stuff... Wagoner and current Bethel stuff is probably the most helpful in understanding their views! I'd love to know more about what you are doing now! How'd you find your way into a charismatic ministry? Sounds super cool!
@@sacramentalcharismatic That's perfect direction for getting clarity and I'll make a point to go check out those episodes! Like most ministry positions, I knew the people. We're a small missions organization. We mobilize, train, send, support, and coach indigenous missionaries, helping churches with large amounts of UPGs to catch the vision for sending guys to those groups and helping them plant multiplying churches. Back before the organization got up to it's current scale, I interned for them for a year back when I was in college. About seven years later I was finishing up my M.Div and they called and asked me to come on in a support role. Prayer and counsel both pointed "yes", so we decided to move and do it. Our entire model rests on mobilize indigenous churches, so we really explicitly are big-tent. Our coalitions in the nations involve some very odd bed-fellows, and even in our leadership there's some real theological hybriding going on. That said, the two founders and a lot of the board were saved and raised in IC traditions ranging from Pentecostal to NAR-adjacent, so if it's anything, it's definitely charismatic. The five fold ministry is one of the very few points of doctrine more specific than Nicea that's outlined in the staff manual, for example. So there was in theory room for me here. And at the same time I was becoming more conversant with the church fathers, mainline traditions, etc I was also becoming more convinced that all of the gifts were for the whole church across time. So even if I was uncomfortable with the initial times of groups laying hands on me, prophesying, praying, etc. I was still in a posture to be receptive and curious. I still have a lot of things I'm sorting out. Like what it means to hear directly from God, I'm praying and reading and meditating and talking through, etc. So it has been a context of really valuable growth. And also a reason I'm super glad to have found your podcast!
Last comment/question (off topic)... I spent 30 yrs at South Metro Vineyard and knew your family while they attended there as well. For the last few years I've been concerned that NAR theology was seeping into the Vineyard. I saw many red flags. But now there is something new. The new pastor at SMV, as well as Vineyard USA, seems to be embracing the "spiritual formation/practices" and "mysticism" movement that is sweeping evangelical churches these days. I no longer attend there, which breaks my heart, but all but a few of our former church family there have also left, and I cannot in good conscience, continue to hear and support teaching that appears to be using scripture out of context to support unbiblical practices. There is a lot of reference now to John Mark Comer, Richard Foster, Dallas Willard. I've heard one critic say that John Wimber was a mystic. What are your thoughts about this new emphasis in the Vineyard?
Wimber was very good friends with Richard Foster and Dallas Willard was a friend of the Vineyard. Both of them wrote and spoke at numerous VIneyard events and publications. Foster wrote the introduction to Wimber's book 'Power Healing". Former Vineyard National Director Todd Hunter was very close to Dallas. "Spiritual Formation' is nothing other than spritual transformation and has been part of the Vineyard since the very early days.
Hey. I think it would be important to understand and define what is meant by "spiritual formation" and "spiritual practices." From my understanding and reading, "spiritual formation" is related to the habits and practices that help shape Christians into the image of Jesus, including prayer, fasting, serving, etc. So if we are talking about THOSE things, I'm 100% on board with encouraging those and I know Wimber was very connected to some of the leading voices and advocates for it (Foster and Willard being the two most well known). I'd be curious what you find questionable or unbiblical from those two authors in order to evaluate what you are thinking. Most of the critics on Foster or Willard that I've read are just the same old arguments that Cessationists make about charismatics in general, so I'm not convinced. I'd be happy to read more of your thoughts on that...
Thank you for acknowledging that the NAR and Bethel Church, Redding are problematic, as well as the connections to Wimber. You are the first Vineyard pastor I've heard say this out loud. I say, its about time.
Here's a second vineyard pastor who agrees. However, I think our response is not to throw the baby out with the bath water and become cessationist leaving no room for the power gifts. I feel NAR In many ways is an unhealthy over reaction to the falsity of the cessationist wing and where it may have started off better, too much of what we think of as a "gpod" thing becomes dangerous. Better to stick to the radical middle with Jesus
I know a lot of Vineyard pastors who share similar concerns as I've expressed. I've been pretty public on my own concerns for a VERY long time. And others have too. But there are a lot of other Vineyard people who tend to "eat the meat and spit out the bones" when it comes to the Vineyard... which I can understand and respect. I think we should have more conversations about this very topic... it just doesn't seem to be one that a lot of folks have had. So maybe we can start :)
I'm unaware of VUSA views on NAR and Bethel. I am 100% aware of John Wimber's view on what is often described as NAR (the link to his article is in the description). He was definitely not on board with a lot of the foundations of their theology. I should clarify that I do not speak on behalf of VUSA or have any representation of their national office. I simply have grown up in the Vineyard and have pastored within the Vineyard movement.
Thanks for focusing attention on this Luke. I agree, it needs to be discussed more.
Thank you brothers for reading my tweet/question and addressing the topic! 🙏
We lacked inspiration... you helped tremendously! ha ha. Thanks again!
Thank you for covering this topic! I work for a ministry that is very much in the independent charismatic world. I grew up in contexts far removed from any pentecostal or charismatic strain, and while I shifted towards the inevitable mix of continuationist-Calvinist-Baptist inevitable for a certain generation of guys heavily influenced by John Piper, I've not been able to have much overview of the broader charismatic world, despite being pretty ecumenical in my readings. Then I listened to Charismatic Revival Fury and got handed a new concept that felt really weird considering my new(-ish, I've been here over a year and love it) context.
Thanks for your comment! I (Luke) have a similar amount of influence to you as I went to a reformed seminary and was pretty influenced by some of the thinking of folks like Piper, Carson, Storms, etc. I never really fully got into the hardcore Calvy world, but appreciated a lot of it!
Welcome to our charismatic circles though! The Charismatic Revival Fury was INCREDIBLE. I'm hoping we can get Taylor on an episode... which reminds me... he told me to email him... so doing that now! Thanks for the reminder!
All that said, as I'm listening, I'm not sure that the scope of what's being talked about is sufficiently clear. Like, references to Scott and Bethel are brought up early on. I would have appreciated a few minutes early on that provided that scope, who you are talking about and who you aren't. Like, looking out at the whole Charismatic world, how would I tell the difference between people strongly influenced by Wagner's NAR and the others? This was a super helpful analsysis of what you call "the NAR world" but I would have liked to have it laid out what exactly that world was. Maybe a brief historical narrative of when the divide happens or how IHOP, etc. fit into the bigger NAR picture.
That said, I get it. I have an M.Div from one of the SBC seminaries, and my ability to just start going in on a strain of baptist history and not knowing what things are obvious common knowledge and which things I need to explain is very real and hard to overcome.
@@loganhurley5590 If you wanna know the history on the Alan Scott stuff... we've done four or five episodes on that.
I think in the future we'll probably dive into more detail on NAR stuff... Wagoner and current Bethel stuff is probably the most helpful in understanding their views!
I'd love to know more about what you are doing now! How'd you find your way into a charismatic ministry? Sounds super cool!
@@sacramentalcharismatic That's perfect direction for getting clarity and I'll make a point to go check out those episodes!
Like most ministry positions, I knew the people. We're a small missions organization. We mobilize, train, send, support, and coach indigenous missionaries, helping churches with large amounts of UPGs to catch the vision for sending guys to those groups and helping them plant multiplying churches. Back before the organization got up to it's current scale, I interned for them for a year back when I was in college. About seven years later I was finishing up my M.Div and they called and asked me to come on in a support role. Prayer and counsel both pointed "yes", so we decided to move and do it.
Our entire model rests on mobilize indigenous churches, so we really explicitly are big-tent. Our coalitions in the nations involve some very odd bed-fellows, and even in our leadership there's some real theological hybriding going on. That said, the two founders and a lot of the board were saved and raised in IC traditions ranging from Pentecostal to NAR-adjacent, so if it's anything, it's definitely charismatic. The five fold ministry is one of the very few points of doctrine more specific than Nicea that's outlined in the staff manual, for example. So there was in theory room for me here.
And at the same time I was becoming more conversant with the church fathers, mainline traditions, etc I was also becoming more convinced that all of the gifts were for the whole church across time. So even if I was uncomfortable with the initial times of groups laying hands on me, prophesying, praying, etc. I was still in a posture to be receptive and curious. I still have a lot of things I'm sorting out. Like what it means to hear directly from God, I'm praying and reading and meditating and talking through, etc. So it has been a context of really valuable growth.
And also a reason I'm super glad to have found your podcast!
Great wimber quote on NAR
Last comment/question (off topic)... I spent 30 yrs at South Metro Vineyard and knew your family while they attended there as well. For the last few years I've been concerned that NAR theology was seeping into the Vineyard. I saw many red flags. But now there is something new. The new pastor at SMV, as well as Vineyard USA, seems to be embracing the "spiritual formation/practices" and "mysticism" movement that is sweeping evangelical churches these days. I no longer attend there, which breaks my heart, but all but a few of our former church family there have also left, and I cannot in good conscience, continue to hear and support teaching that appears to be using scripture out of context to support unbiblical practices. There is a lot of reference now to John Mark Comer, Richard Foster, Dallas Willard. I've heard one critic say that John Wimber was a mystic. What are your thoughts about this new emphasis in the Vineyard?
Wimber was very good friends with Richard Foster and Dallas Willard was a friend of the Vineyard. Both of them wrote and spoke at numerous VIneyard events and publications. Foster wrote the introduction to Wimber's book 'Power Healing". Former Vineyard National Director Todd Hunter was very close to Dallas.
"Spiritual Formation' is nothing other than spritual transformation and has been part of the Vineyard since the very early days.
@@douglaserickson8219 Interesting. I'd attended my former Vineyard Church since around 1990 and don't recall ever learning about these connections.
Hey. I think it would be important to understand and define what is meant by "spiritual formation" and "spiritual practices." From my understanding and reading, "spiritual formation" is related to the habits and practices that help shape Christians into the image of Jesus, including prayer, fasting, serving, etc.
So if we are talking about THOSE things, I'm 100% on board with encouraging those and I know Wimber was very connected to some of the leading voices and advocates for it (Foster and Willard being the two most well known). I'd be curious what you find questionable or unbiblical from those two authors in order to evaluate what you are thinking. Most of the critics on Foster or Willard that I've read are just the same old arguments that Cessationists make about charismatics in general, so I'm not convinced.
I'd be happy to read more of your thoughts on that...
Thank you for acknowledging that the NAR and Bethel Church, Redding are problematic, as well as the connections to Wimber. You are the first Vineyard pastor I've heard say this out loud. I say, its about time.
Here's a second vineyard pastor who agrees. However, I think our response is not to throw the baby out with the bath water and become cessationist leaving no room for the power gifts. I feel NAR In many ways is an unhealthy over reaction to the falsity of the cessationist wing and where it may have started off better, too much of what we think of as a "gpod" thing becomes dangerous. Better to stick to the radical middle with Jesus
I know a lot of Vineyard pastors who share similar concerns as I've expressed. I've been pretty public on my own concerns for a VERY long time. And others have too. But there are a lot of other Vineyard people who tend to "eat the meat and spit out the bones" when it comes to the Vineyard... which I can understand and respect.
I think we should have more conversations about this very topic... it just doesn't seem to be one that a lot of folks have had. So maybe we can start :)
I have some suggestions for interviews. Tell Luke to check his messages.
You just told him, so... boom.
Does Vineyard USA hold your views about the NAR and Bethel Church? Is there a statement about this anywhere on the Vineyard USA website?
I'm unaware of VUSA views on NAR and Bethel. I am 100% aware of John Wimber's view on what is often described as NAR (the link to his article is in the description). He was definitely not on board with a lot of the foundations of their theology.
I should clarify that I do not speak on behalf of VUSA or have any representation of their national office. I simply have grown up in the Vineyard and have pastored within the Vineyard movement.
10k? I just heard Costi Hinn say try 30 to 100k for one speaking engagement. As for Pete Grieg he goes where he is paid first and formost.
just call it naar (sick feeling in Afrikaans)....
Unfortunately, as much as I (Luke) have tried to pin Wes down on his South African heritage... he knows nothing ;) ha ha.
But yes. I concur :) ha ha