My experience when I unknowingly got involved with NAR aligned churches and Bible studies was a very painful experience. There are some events that I felt led by God to go to which were very confusing in the moment. Then God got me out of it all in a rather abrupt manner. What I saw was the alignments between these big ministries. This interview explains some history that I wasn’t familiar with as well. And it gives validity to what I saw first hand. Someone else that these people love is A.W. Tozer but when I read his sermons and books I don’t gather that he would approve of their beliefs.
50:31 Yes i had realised the irony of Alan Scott taking over Annaheim and converting it into a Bethel values church. I had been watching his flirting with Bethel leaders when he was still at Causeway Coast Vineyard in Ireland. In 2019 Alan Scott and the other founders of the vineyard whose names i forget were sitting on the stage (not at the same time) at our naturally supernatural conference, Soul Survivor, Watford, UK; I hadnt realised at that point that he had become the minister at Annaheim Vineyard but when the news broke I wasnt that surprised and thought that is another take over of a Vineyard. Leicester Vineyard in the UK has come under Bethels affiliation... Even though in the UK and having attended Feltham Vineyard for 8 years (and around that charismatic anglican churches influenced by Wimber) i realised that Wimbers theology is NOT dominion. Back in the day i followed what was going on with the Kansas city prophets (even tho i was in an AOG for 4 years at that time, 1988-1983) via Clifford Hill's prophecy today magazine and his refusal to endorse the Kansas City prophets book..
36:33 Josiah Toru -economics anthrapologist... he is looking at these 5 fold prophet ministries in africa and the way they are accumulating social and moral and spiritual capital and the way they interact with politics..
5:53 I love the story that Luke tells, Wimber & Wagner held a conference together... Wagner gets up to share his church growth expertise, one of which is getting both the husband and wife to both drive their cars to church to fill the parking lot up to make it look like something is going on.... Wimber gets up (the next day?) and says basically i dont agree with anything he just said !! 🙂 brilliant... thats what maked John Andrew Collins recent critique of Wimber so sad... he has just got his facts wrong. I think looking through the lens of Branhams complete and utter sharleton dishonesty, he has everyone in this category and interprets events accordingly and is also very weak on the facts... which he didnt live through because he was born into the branham cult and didnt leave until about 10 years ago, already in his 30's...
Taylor has done a good job of researching! I wonder if he ever includes the revival leaders in Argentina in the 1990's -- Carlos Annacondia, Ed Silvoso, Claudio Friedson, Hector Gimenez, Edward Lorenzo -- It is my impression that these leaders promoted Wagner and his strategic-level spiritual warfare. I have read that Pentecostals/Evangelicals in Argentina prior to the Falkland War were about 1/2 of 1 percent of the population -- but after the revival in the 90's they increased to about 5% of the population
I read about the Pentecostal/Charismatic involvement in Brasil’s politics in Paul Palma’s book on grassroots Pentecostalism there. He pretty much predicted the uprising there.
52:06 Matthew Taylor says "....and that is very much the kind of dark genius of Peter Wagner is finding a way to get these, to heard cats functionally because you've got all these apostles and prophets who are all big personalities (yes fullfilling the beatitudes and the lamb nature !! 🙂not) who all want to have their own mini empires; But he finds a way to create a framework, that they can all work together, all partner together, still have enough autonamy that Ive got my little kingdom that i control but Im not competing or fighting Im friends with all these other leaders, emporers but they all get to kind of run their own thing BUT THEY ARE NOT ACCOUNTABLE to anyone !!" Did you know that Alice Bailey (occultist) is into ruling and reigning down here through a 7 mountain mandate and a 2nd coming of Christ... I CAN SEE THE EMERGING END TIMES APOSTASY COMING THROUGH ALL OF THIS... NAR's structure lends itself to anyone joining them...
I got todd bentleys theology off of his web site in 2008, it was only there a few days. He was into serpent seed theology and prayingvto angelscwhich is idolatory. Did bill johnson and co. not check his theology. The first video i watched of his, he said the same angel that started branhams ministry started mine, i immediately knew he was off..
47:28 That is really interesting, I knew Wimber did not agree with Wagner but i did not know that Wagner had dedicated his collective volume entitled 'The New Apostolic Churches' to Wimber... This is really unfair and a bit underhanded as he knew that Wimber disagreed with much of what he taught and he did this after Wimber had passed away and did not have a voice... Peter Wagner's fear of God seems to be lacking.... This is interesting in light of John Andrew Collins (ex branhamite cult) take on Wimber which has been quite lacking in its accuracy of Wimbers theology and actions.... which this you tube channel did a brilliant refute to...
Todd Bentley (Lakeland Outpouring) claimed that the same angel that accompanied William Branham in his meetings was with Bentley, NAR leaders like Ahn, Wagner, and Johnson went to Lakeland for Bentley's "apostolic alignment" just before the whole thing fell apart when Bentley's infidelity came to light.
Oh wow, I typed that before Matt got to Lakeland. I was watching that whole thing in real-time in the Christian media. The first article in Charisma mag about it tripped my Holy Spirit spidey sense. It was an AG church that hosted that fiasco, sadly,.
..ah thats interesting, i know the william branham connection as the first video i watched of bentley, he was saying that the same angel that started Branhams ministry started his, i also got his theology off of his web site which was serpent seed and praying to angels... Ah i didnt quite twig the 'apostolic alignment' bit though. Did branham have connections with the geographical location of Lakeland, was he trying to get more of branhams annointing or something or have i misunderstood that... do you just mean he was coming under Bill Johnsons authority as a prophet or something..
34:13 About YWAM - ive been trying to work out if they are into dominion theology or not... Daniel Kolenda CFan (Christ for all nations - formerly Reinhard Bonnke) on his (in my opinion dishonest video) about why he is not part of the NAR he tries to justify that YWAM believed in the seven mountain mandate - the problem is, is that just as salt and light which we are supposed to be or was that ruling and reigning over everyone (BEFORE Jesus returns) now. Jesus clearly separated religion and state at his arrest when he said my kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36).
32:21 Bethel & bill johnson are A list celebrities i would say. Whether you call them NAR or not they have done more to spread dominion theology & the new age around the world through the thousands that have attended their bible school that any other... ...and thats before you get onto their books and videos for everyone else. Bill Johnson tries to say that his chapter (its farily tame compared to the other chapters) in their book The Physics of Heaven was taken against his will but of the two editors, one is his church secretary, his assistant minister Vallaton does the intro, Johnsons late wife has a chapter and Bill Johnson does the conclustion... Bill Johnson then tries to say its not on their book stall but you have an ex bethel student who says it is. He then also tries to say that they dont really teach from that book but you have another ex bethel student saying thats exactly what they get taught at bible school.... ruclips.net/video/Y3jgkiAMreQ/видео.htmlsi=WKMgcazMv2HEGoNx
Excellent Episode. Matthew is the best researcher on the NAR I have come across.
My experience when I unknowingly got involved with NAR aligned churches and Bible studies was a very painful experience. There are some events that I felt led by God to go to which were very confusing in the moment. Then God got me out of it all in a rather abrupt manner.
What I saw was the alignments between these big ministries. This interview explains some history that I wasn’t familiar with as well. And it gives validity to what I saw first hand.
Someone else that these people love is A.W. Tozer but when I read his sermons and books I don’t gather that he would approve of their beliefs.
50:31 Yes i had realised the irony of Alan Scott taking over Annaheim and converting it into a Bethel values church. I had been watching his flirting with Bethel leaders when he was still at Causeway Coast Vineyard in Ireland.
In 2019 Alan Scott and the other founders of the vineyard whose names i forget were sitting on the stage (not at the same time) at our naturally supernatural conference, Soul Survivor, Watford, UK;
I hadnt realised at that point that he had become the minister at Annaheim Vineyard but when the news broke I wasnt that surprised and thought that is another take over of a Vineyard.
Leicester Vineyard in the UK has come under Bethels affiliation...
Even though in the UK and having attended Feltham Vineyard for 8 years (and around that charismatic anglican churches influenced by Wimber) i realised that Wimbers theology is NOT dominion. Back in the day i followed what was going on with the Kansas city prophets (even tho i was in an AOG for 4 years at that time, 1988-1983)
via Clifford Hill's prophecy today magazine and his refusal to endorse the Kansas City prophets book..
What a contrast between Wagner and Thomas Oden, who wanted his tombstone to read “He contributed nothing new to theology.”
36:33 Josiah Toru -economics anthrapologist... he is looking at these 5 fold prophet ministries in africa and the way they are accumulating social and moral and spiritual capital and the way they interact with politics..
5:53 I love the story that Luke tells, Wimber & Wagner held a conference together... Wagner gets up to share his church growth expertise, one of which is getting both the husband and wife to both drive their cars to church to fill the parking lot up to make it look like something is going on....
Wimber gets up (the next day?) and says basically i dont agree with anything he just said !! 🙂 brilliant...
thats what maked John Andrew Collins recent critique of Wimber so sad... he has just got his facts wrong.
I think looking through the lens of Branhams complete and utter sharleton dishonesty, he has everyone in this category and interprets events accordingly and is also very weak on the facts... which he didnt live through because he was born into the branham cult and didnt leave until about 10 years ago, already in his 30's...
Taylor has done a good job of researching! I wonder if he ever includes the revival leaders in Argentina in the 1990's -- Carlos Annacondia, Ed Silvoso, Claudio Friedson, Hector Gimenez, Edward Lorenzo -- It is my impression that these leaders promoted Wagner and his strategic-level spiritual warfare. I have read that Pentecostals/Evangelicals in Argentina prior to the Falkland War were about 1/2 of 1 percent of the population -- but after the revival in the 90's they increased to about 5% of the population
Make Christianity Spurgeon Again
I read about the Pentecostal/Charismatic involvement in Brasil’s politics in Paul Palma’s book on grassroots Pentecostalism there. He pretty much predicted the uprising there.
52:06 Matthew Taylor says "....and that is very much the kind of dark genius of Peter Wagner is finding a way to get these, to heard cats functionally because you've got all these apostles and prophets who are all big personalities (yes fullfilling the beatitudes and the lamb nature !! 🙂not) who all want to have their own mini empires;
But he finds a way to create a framework, that they can all work together, all partner together, still have enough autonamy that Ive got my little kingdom that i control but Im not competing or fighting Im friends with all these other leaders, emporers but they all get to kind of run their own thing BUT THEY ARE NOT ACCOUNTABLE to anyone !!"
Did you know that Alice Bailey (occultist) is into ruling and reigning down here through a 7 mountain mandate and a 2nd coming of Christ...
I CAN SEE THE EMERGING END TIMES APOSTASY COMING THROUGH ALL OF THIS... NAR's structure lends itself to anyone joining them...
I got todd bentleys theology off of his web site in 2008, it was only there a few days. He was into serpent seed theology and prayingvto angelscwhich is idolatory.
Did bill johnson and co. not check his theology.
The first video i watched of his, he said the same angel that started branhams ministry started mine, i immediately knew he was off..
47:28 That is really interesting, I knew Wimber did not agree with Wagner but i did not know that Wagner had dedicated his collective volume entitled 'The New Apostolic Churches' to Wimber...
This is really unfair and a bit underhanded as he knew that Wimber disagreed with much of what he taught and he did this after Wimber had passed away and did not have a voice...
Peter Wagner's fear of God seems to be lacking....
This is interesting in light of John Andrew Collins (ex branhamite cult) take on Wimber which has been quite lacking in its accuracy of Wimbers theology and actions.... which this you tube channel did a brilliant refute to...
Todd Bentley (Lakeland Outpouring) claimed that the same angel that accompanied William Branham in his meetings was with Bentley, NAR leaders like Ahn, Wagner, and Johnson went to Lakeland for Bentley's "apostolic alignment" just before the whole thing fell apart when Bentley's infidelity came to light.
Oh wow, I typed that before Matt got to Lakeland. I was watching that whole thing in real-time in the Christian media. The first article in Charisma mag about it tripped my Holy Spirit spidey sense.
It was an AG church that hosted that fiasco, sadly,.
..ah thats interesting, i know the william branham connection as the first video i watched of bentley, he was saying that the same angel that started Branhams ministry started his, i also got his theology off of his web site which was serpent seed and praying to angels...
Ah i didnt quite twig the 'apostolic alignment' bit though. Did branham have connections with the geographical location of Lakeland, was he trying to get more of branhams annointing or something or have i misunderstood that...
do you just mean he was coming under Bill Johnsons authority as a prophet or something..
34:13 About YWAM - ive been trying to work out if they are into dominion theology or not...
Daniel Kolenda CFan (Christ for all nations - formerly Reinhard Bonnke) on his (in my opinion dishonest video) about why he is not part of the NAR he tries to justify that YWAM believed in the seven mountain mandate - the problem is, is that just as salt and light which we are supposed to be or was that ruling and reigning over everyone (BEFORE Jesus returns) now.
Jesus clearly separated religion and state at his arrest when he said my kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36).
32:21 Bethel & bill johnson are A list celebrities i would say. Whether you call them NAR or not they have done more to spread dominion theology & the new age around the world through the thousands that have attended their bible school that any other... ...and thats before you get onto their books and videos for everyone else.
Bill Johnson tries to say that his chapter (its farily tame compared to the other chapters) in their book The Physics of Heaven was taken against his will but of the two editors, one is his church secretary, his assistant minister Vallaton does the intro, Johnsons late wife has a chapter and Bill Johnson does the conclustion...
Bill Johnson then tries to say its not on their book stall but you have an ex bethel student who says it is. He then also tries to say that they dont really teach from that book but you have another ex bethel student saying thats exactly what they get taught at bible school....
ruclips.net/video/Y3jgkiAMreQ/видео.htmlsi=WKMgcazMv2HEGoNx
they didnt even need a prophecy, they could have just looked at his theology on his web site..
I dont see how you can say that Bethel is not buying into the New Apostolic Reformation...
All of you have missed over 2000 years of Christian history if you think this is new.
Anderson Ruth Lee Deborah Martinez Frank