@@MindShift-Brandonhey Brandon, lifelong atheist here, and I have a question. Some context first, I think that the best argument to disbelieve in God is divine hiddenness. If an all loving God wants a relationship with me then surely he could make himself known to me, right? But Christians often say that humans rebelled against god over and over again and he no longer wants to reveal himself or something to that effect. My question is what are god's last words in the Bible to humanity? Does he straight up say "hey I gave you a lot of chance and I'm not going to be here anymore"? Basically is what all these Christians say actually biblical?
Probably my least favorite verse in the Bible is the "spare the rod, spoil the child" one. That verse has caused me personally a lot of emotional and physical pain. Also, I don't trust people who say, "Sure my parents may have beaten me, but I turned out fine." Often those people use this verse and their "I turned out fine" to justify abusing their children. I have seen and experienced it personally.
Okay that isn’t the Bible. But there is something similar. Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them Proverbs 13:24. Now whatever the means to hit or use the rod to lead depends on how you read. Which is my problem. Why couldn’t God interpret the Bible for himself so no confusion?
@@Robohead-z6z Well you see, God is not the author of confusion. Satan is. So, you must not understand what God is saying in this verse because the devil is confusing you. God clearly wants people to hit their children with rods. /S
Agreed. My grandfather used to whip me with a bull whip. No joke! My grandmother would make me go get a “switch” off the tree and I even had to strip the leaves off of it. My childhood, as with most children of Christian’s and most likely Amy controlling religion, was robbed from me! I’m 56 now and can say that 50 years of my life was robbed from me from all the “Christian” indoctrination I suffered. So glad to be past that now!
I recently came across your channel when looking for safe spaces online because as a Black woman in South Africa being atheist is not something encouraged, it is frowned upon so there's not much community. My grandfather was a preacher but I'm realising how selective he was with the bible. I went atheist when I started reading the bible on my own, like a book from the first chapter but you've also made me realise how much I didn't know / understand it. Thank you for the upload and the work you do.
Thing with atheism is that it's not a thing. You don't have to profess atheism or defend it. Atheism doesn't care what you think about it. If you go along the dominant religion in your society to be safe or even to just fit in, atheism does not care. God will not care either, since he doesn't exist. Other than religion, there are many things that I feign mild interest in to fit in. I don't really care about local sports teams. I think patriotism is stupid. A lot of rituals, like weddings and wearing a tie at work, are pointless. Religion is no different in that respect.
You are probably not as alone as you think you are, I send my love from Australia. May I suggest watching some channels 1: Atheist Experience 2: The Line and 3 Mythvision -all youtube the conversations and information is invaluable and you will see how so many are in your position, the religious bullies are afraid and won't win in the long run. 💙💙🤠🤠💙💙
I feel like Proverbs has done some of the most harm to children of anything in the Bible. It’s this religion’s treatment of children that drove me away from the church in the first place.
I grew up in a teetotaler household; no alcohol whatsoever because drinking is a sin; "wine in the Bible meant grape juice" (even though it's glaringly apparent that it's not), etc. So one of my favorite proverbs is the one where it literally says "Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to the bitter in soul." I guess getting hammered isn't always sinful. 😅
I had an uncle what was teaching a Sunday School Class in a Southern Baptist Church some years ago. He was ask if the wine discussed by Jesus was real wine and he said yes. Later that afternoon he was visited by deacons of the Church telling him to not say that in Church. He told them to make a list of all the things he should lie about while teaching in Sunday School Classes. Soon after that they found a new teacher.
I had a friend in high school (back in the 60s) whose family was Christian Reformed. Drinking was supposedly frowned on...but one Sun Day I was invited over for lunch with them and hang around with my friend. What did I discover hidden away? Why, home made wine. I wasn't looking for it, but there it was. Also, didn't Paul tell Timothy to drink a little wine, because he had a stomach problem? And yeah, like there was no fermented "fruit of the vine" back then. So stupid to believe that.
@@johntiggleman4686lol. Alcohol is like, one of the first things mankind invented after fire. The ancient Egyptians used to have beer for breakfast, because their version was basically cream of wheat that made you drunk.
O yes, I 'll never forget when the Assembly of god pastor stood there and preached that ALL the wine in the bible was simply grape juice, that nobody in the ancient world would actually drink booze, LMAO, gimmee a damn break.
@@earlt.7573 They are molding and shaping the bible to fit what you want to believe. That seems to be common practice. But then there is not really not much to start with as a foundation anyway (bible) so what does it matter.
26:43 This whole, "cheaters never win and winners never cheat" mentality pops up so much throughout history when it's just blatantly wrong. I feel like the people who have cheated to get into power say these things so that other people can think they aren't playing with a stacked deck
Reminds me a bit of people who think The Rock is not on steroids and other enhancers. You will never ever achieve what he has physically without being on what he is and even then probably not. Not condemning the use but the lie. People literally and figuratively k@ll themselves to try to get the same results when it's not possible without the "help".
@@GameTimeWhy I remember seeing something a while ago about gym trainers needing to have very serious conversations with people after Fight Club came out to let them know that they will never look like Brad Pitt from Fight Club
"What is more powerful, what is a better motivator than avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure?" Reminder: Christianity's most enduring symbol is a Greco-Roman implement specifically designed to inflict as much pain as possible prior to death. Pain and punishment are embedded into the very soul of this religion.
The Bible constantly teaches about the dangers of excess. It never says that our goal is to seek as much pleasure as possible. Because it knows that's not a good thing. And people addicted to opioids are proving that correct.
I get a little chuckle when I hear the verse about Solomon being the wisest person ever. It sort of implies him to be wiser than God. And definitely says more than Jesus. from what distinction there might be there.
@@MindShift-Brandont's also a bit ironic. That in essence this book calls itself massively wise, even though that stance is explicitly called unwise. I guess it's a do what I say, not what I do lesson?
I do agree that you should never think yourself wise. It's that sort of pride that makes people stick to their wrong options. Always ask yourself, not 'if', but 'how' am I wrong.
yes i like the concept in general. Even Socrates tells us how important it is to to recognize that we know nothing, but the alternative shouldn't be to be cast down as a fool for trying to do what the book is already telling you lol.
Thank you, Brandon. It's so healing and validating to have this resource...like an index to jump to. When family try to send me random Bible quotes, it's disorienting to not know how to respond. 😵💫 I'm out of practice reading "bible-ese"but it's so nice to hear your clear explanation of the chapter in a way that makes sense and doesn't leave me with the used car salesman feeling that the bible does. 🥴🤢 (Hashtag not all used car salespeople)
I just want to say I really appreciate this series. It's been at least a decade since I sat down and read through the whole Bible and it's been so helpful in my own deconstruction journey to hear the Bible approached with the same systematic approach that we were taught to apply to literally every other work of literature. Trying to read it this way as a child raised in it really laid the groundwork for my path out of the faith but hearing this from a purely secular perspective is so helpful with where I am at now vs my attempts to read it this way while still in the faith. I'm learning so much, and it's bringing back memories of my questioning that I otherwise feel so removed from decades later.
For many years I didn’t know that there other proverbs from other cultures around the world, not just in the Bible itself. I must admit, I was a little surprised by this. Thank you once again, Brandon, for another great video! You made my day! 😊
@@MindShift-BrandonSome ancient wisdom from my people: if you find a naked woman lying on the beach, don't take her home and marry her, no matter how hot she is. There's a non-zero chance she might be a selkie, and she'll run off on you as soon as she finds her seal skin.
@robertmoore2049 "A stitch in time saves nine," is a proverb with which you're probably familiar. So is, "Don't count your chickens until they're hatched."
Very interesting. To be apprehensive of certain things is good. It keeps us from being foolhardy and causing ourselves harm. But some types of fear are simply runaway emotions that cloud our thinking, which can cause harm.
@20:24 I'm glad you pointed this out because I was raised with a Christian perspective on Proverbs and it's really hard for me to see outside of that framework. However, I'm going to play devil's advocate. This passage sounds a lot like the Dunning-Kruger effect, where those who've learned a bit drastically overrate their abilities compared to those who don't know anything about a subject, and those who really are experts.
I’m “power listening “ today while working. Thank you Brandon. This series is fantastic and very important. It’s really helping me understand this book.
Beep beep Johnny! They all float down here. Kiss me fat boy! Look into my dead lights. Tim Curry in the TV mini series was the best Pennywise. Also was excellent as Darkness in the movie Legend. Pennywise or It liked to terrorise the children because he said they tasted better like that. What dose god get out of it?
So excited. Your channel has been a companion of mine, as I try to navigate my relationship with a fundamentalist having two kids and having very different views about Christianity and religion in general
Enjoying the journey. Was wondering if Proverbs 31 would make the problem passage list when I first started listening to this. That would be the biggest problem from my perspective. (How many women would agree with that... probably a lot)
Lady wisdom and Pallas Athena both being matriarchal personifications of wisdom sounds like another instance of the bible taking inspiration from other theism's of the day
It never occurred to me, but I think your point of branching out would be really helpful for Abrahamic believers. Dogmatic religions seem to force their believers to think in just one way and live in their own bubbles, without realizing how diverse the moral landscape actually is. Then again there's also diversity within each of these religions as well, and believers often choose to believe their version is the only true version. It's important for them to realize that truth is nothing unique to their own cultures and it really does not require any sort of faith in the divine.
I think I would prefer the proverbs of a large, yellow, land-walking, talking, hypersonic flying, and regenerative cephalopod who teaches life in the midst of lessons aimed towards assassinating him over the rather lackluster and lackadaisical ones of the Bible. For example: "The difference between the novice and the master is that the master has failed more times than the novice has tried." RIP Koro-sensei.
As an atheist and secular humanist, raised Southern Baptist. I love the deep meanings you explain about stories we NEVER heard in Sunday school or church. Thank you, Brandon.
When my son was a little boy, he started having a temper tantrum, so I spanked him, but he just got angrier. So then I picked him up and put him on my shoulder and I patted him on his back, and I said your a good boy, and he immediately fell asleep on my shoulder. I never spanked him again.
children actually have about asmuch awareness as adults but their only focuse is what causes them joy and what hurts them so giving a children love for doing good is probably more important than disipline for doing bad tho its obviously important to make sure your child doesnt get a habit of doing bad things
Yea i think we have quite different perspectives/objectives going in. As believers, they are clearly trying to explain away or not cover the issues I see as blatant.
I agree theres useful info about the books and factoids etc. but i recall so much skipping and reframing of the parts that are clearly false, immoral, or contradicting. They have their agenda for sure. As do I though
Hi Brandon! Just curious, have you ever read the Norse, Hávamál? It is a collection of words of advice and everyday wisdom, attributed to the Norse God Odin. It is also separated into sections of advice, poems and narratives. I've found it to be entertaining and good advice, especially for the time and place. Other great examples of wisdom are the Tao te Ching and the words of Confusious.
I do have a cool copy of a study Havamal and yes love the other two. Im going to so a Sunday video soon of other wisdom lit just like how i did other gods
I love asking where "the golden rule" comes from (do unto others). Theists say Luke 6:31, I point out it (like so much else is borrowed as it occurs long before the bible in Buddhism: “Whatever is disagreeable to yourself, do not do unto others” (The Buddha, Udana-Varga 5.18 - 6th century BC). Confucianism: “Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you” (Confucius, Analects 15.23 - 5th century BC). It was not just (holy) Ghosts ideas they took from the far east. 🤔🤔
Yes, agreed, and one of my favorites is Susan B. Anthony's saying, "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
You really have to watch secular Bible study from Genesis and im gonna be here till revelation 🤧 I enjoy everything (especially when you go off track )😅 I didn't even consider things like literary analysis thank you
The best devil's advocate I can offer for the "rod" part is similar to how men in the past, and yet many today: Are too stupid to realize things like the hymen myth. Since: A SMALL minority of people, this is true on! So they just slap it across the board. And for a VERY SMALL amount of children: The rod is the ONLY option. This is however ONLY on mentally defective children (and people). As, the kid running around and gleefully laughing as they stab other children with a knife, do NOT listen to "gentle encouragement" or whatever. They ARE a lost cause. Maybe in the future, we can figure out ways to treat these people. But as of now: We cannot. As in their brain, it's the "Why SHOULD I change? There's 0 consequences. And I get to do what I enjoy!". In over 20 years, I've pretty much always seen the same outcome: They use the methods that would work on a normal child, is ignored, and moved around schools. Until they eventually come to a school, where the child picks the wrong victim. Often a neurodivergient kid, with no holds barred. And the child gets their teeth kicked in. And either INSTANTLY, or after a second beating. There is an immediate "Oh wow... things I do onto others CAN be done to me!" and a shock to their system that: If adults stand back and let them harm children, they ALSO stand back and let other children harm them... (This does fail and double backfire when you have entitled parents with spoiled brats.) Trailing off here, but we can assume these children have always existed. But I HIGHLY doubt those "parenting methods" were developed across the board, to deal with a fraction of the population. And most likely: Was to indoctrinate kids into the cult. On the other part: ... We're kinda left with fundamentalists having to admit that either: The bible isn't 100 % true. OR: Childgrape and child sacrifice IS good AND moral.
They keep claiming they are prophecy, when they are just a collection of wisdom literature. Not unique to the bible and certainly not original to the bible.
In the movie A Bronx Tale, C asked Sonny the mafia boss if it was better to be feared or Loved. He responded "feared, fear lasts longer" . It is a greater motivator. Cosmic mafia boss. And according to the book of Job, this Devil is little more than a hit man for God. A celestial Luka Brassi.
I have heard over the years that "fear" means respecting the Lord. Maybe, but seeing all the ass-whupping that's gone on in earlier books, I rather believe it means to be afraid.
Right. The context of god horrendously punishing people suggest fear means fear. And if we can just try to change words why dont christians ever do it with the good ones. You see when jesus says he loves is what it really means is he is jealous of us.
27:17 is my personal favorite because iron Doesn't Actually Sharpen Iron. Your friends are not able to "sharpen" you. They're probably about as smart (ahem) as you are. Find somebody who is steel which actually DOES sharpen iron.
2 things about halfway through: It says it’s bad for a person to be wise in their own eyes… that doesn’t mean wise in accordance with Godly wisdom. And the other thing is the word “hate” when used to describe he who spares the rod “hates his own son” means neither loves or hates. It means a lack of caring either way, or complete indifference. Not what the word hate has come to be known as today.
23:00 I heard someone interpret this as a Shepard's rod which is meant to guide and not a necessarily to beat. I'm not sure how accurate that interpretation would be to time it was written, but it seemed like a plausible option.
While understanding the limits of 3000 year old wisdom and rejecting a literal fundie interpretation; proverbs are intended as situationaly true statements. They are destructive sometimes like how a poor indebted person is treated. That is how the depression years got so devastating and drawn out.
Was wondering if you caught Proverbs 29:19 where the passage endorses beating as justifiable discipline over slaves. But like you articulated with the corporal punishment with the kids. They were just doing the best with what they had at the time.
When I was in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, where there is a henotheistic approach that allows for the existence of a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father, the section of Proverbs where Lady Wisdom speaks was sometimes interpreted or theorized as coming from Heavenly Mother, under the title of Lady Wisdom. Not official doctrine by any means, but just thought it was interesting.
The apostles: but lord what if people don’t want to hear your message. Jesus: eh if people have ears to hear let them hear if not oh well. Than we have the crusades the inquisition the 30 years war street evangelists praying on drug addicts, the complete destruction of a bunch of north and South American cultures…. Hmmm
I can't believe my long rant about the "rod and staff" did not get perceived by the next refresh. If I comment thrice, I'm sorry. I just wanna see if it pops up on my end. 22:10 - "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is still a phrase I didn't understand. Parents keep bringing this up to justify their primitive acts and their abuse. This happens for narcissists, who justify their methods of discipline with the Word of God. Looking at the Grim Reaper, its scythe is not a weapon for violence, but for "harvest". It harvests souls, but it also protects them in their passage to the afterlife. Therefore, the Grim Reaper can be akin to a Shepherd - the rod to defend against predators, and the staff to guide and protect the flock. Hurt and betray your child, and your child will turn on you. Minus the hate I mentioned as someone who has suffered through this under the excuse of the passage, it's like you're beating an animal that doesn't know better. Children are young. They don't know why such bad things happen without knowing the cause behind it. Christianity and Catholicism has robbed children of a fruitful and memorable youth more than it has helped them.
Thanks Brandon. And agree 100%, when you lose the religious baggage, literature like Proverbs provide interesting insights into bronze and iron age Levant cultural thinking.
I was terrified of the God of the Bible, and it also made me live it a state of constantly looking for threats. It's a shitty way to live. You can't relax, evil is every where. You are at war with imaginary forces, it sucked. It's so freeing to no longer believe in hell, the devil or rewards and punishment after death. I thought God hated my grandmother because she's Catholic and the idolatry I almost quit talking to her for several months I didn't go to her house. One day I was like really God's jealous of his creation? The creator of all things jealous of his creation. Sounds like man not God, also The creator made me the way I am then sent men to write a book to constantly remind me how terrible I am. And will punish me for being the way he created me to be? Seriously! Do you punish a lion for killing a gazelle, so many things I thought were sinful because of the Bible, I'm coming to find that we have little control to change them we were created that way they are part of human nature. Therefore they can not be sinful. Like cowardliness for example we have a natural fight of flight response to perceived dangers so if I run rather than fight I'm gonna burn in the lake of fire for being a coward according to Christianity.
"again, that book isn't perfect, when it comes to women's issues" ... really? What a surprise, given the rest of this wonderful, wonderful bible, being otherwise soooo supportive of women. 🤣
For a quick reference, could you bullet point list, book by book how, each: Obey Fear, fear me, the lord etc. Killing children Abortion Murder / Massacre by God, Sacrificing to God, Saverly condoned by God, instructions by God on how to treat your slaves, and all the other atrocities committed by or commanded by God
On the verses on the fear of the lord, I've read that in John Walton's book ANE Thought & The Old Testament “'Fear of the god' is not belief... but the manifestation of an attitude of reverence for the gods and love of ones fellow human beings”. It might be quite a reach to say that this represent a selfish act in general. Thou its fair to consider your comments given how yahweh is portrayed in such a violent manner.
Thank you again for another fine presentation of questioning and examining the Bible's insistence on claiming God's total domineering (and gleefully humiliating) superiority over all of mankind and on you accurately pointing out innumerable examples of where the Bible simply embarrasses and mires itself.
It also contradicts what Paul said. God didn’t give us a spirit of fear, but yet we should fear him. Honestly I think Solomon wasn’t getting wisdom from anyone but his own butthole.
The Proverbs are interesting, to say the least. But I also try to follow The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition. I'll relate just a few: Small print leads to large risk. Profit is its own reward. Anything worth doing is worth doing for money (my favorite). Don't trust a man wearing a better suit than yours.
What is your take on Proverbs 8 ? I will argue that Sophia is in reference to the holy spirit, being the divine feminine aspect of God, that was later obscured by saying that the Trinity is made up of three male figures showing the dove as the holy ghost instead of a woman, because these men couldn't handle a woman being described as "wisdom" herself.
I got a request. Can you compare Biblical God to the Great old ones from HP lovecraft and see how he compares to them? While I'm an ex Christian I honestly think most of the Lovecraft gods, outer gods elder gods and great old ones (Especially Azathoth) are much worse than Yaweh.
I don’t think sparing the rod means beating your children, since it’s a sheep herders book, a battered sheep isn’t of much value. The shepherd uses his rod as a tool for guidance.
Def one Christian interpretation that many see , since Jesus chastens/scourges believers etc. ... So it means discipline, which is not a synonym for violence. What about the rod the male slave owner was allowed by God in o.t. to beat his female slave with though ( so long as she didn't die )? That was a literal rod. And so people can see what they want to see or have been conditioned/ taught. As God allows for so much violence in the bible against women and children ( mass genocide / beatings etc ) it's easy to see how many people think it's ok. Sure, Jesus took the little children in his arms and blessed them...but later he told the mourning women to weep for their children and themselves...who would be massacred and laid in the rubble of Jerusalem at his behest. Jekyll hyde.
@@soniachambers6460 I must agree, anyone can interpret the Bible to suit their beliefs. And I’m not sure the Bible specify male or female slaves slave to be beaten. It’s more either. And I agree the Bible is a vile book
Ok, so I'm late to the party here, but I noticed there doesn't seem to be any Christian Trolls in this comment section. Your little spiel at the end must have had them thinking for once 😂
@@MindShift-Brandon RUclips is way too touchy. The place is exotic india. The book is Tattvajnana Dvatrimshika by Acarya Siddhasena Divakara. It’s a Jain book. In English it means 32 Verses on Rational Thought.
It is easy to imagine how some priest or King ordered that wise sayings being compiled for the benefit of all. A lot of this folk wisdom probably preceded grander theological claims. You can see how 'Don't eat unclean animals' might morph from a quasi-scientific observation that people eating pork are getting sick so maybe we shouldn't do that' to later being transfigured by the priestly caste into a divine ordinance. Alternatively, it has been proposed that banning pork specifically was a way to get people to forget what people meat tastes like.
I have a question: What does having fear of the Lord has to do with wisdom? I can get that some religious people do behave good cause of God, but it also has nothing to do with Wisdom. Most of the stuff about knowledge or wisdom about the God is that "he created stuff" but never goes more than that.
The fear of God is more like awe. I remember that feeling when I saw an uncharacteristically high tide during a hurricane once. It was definitely something to see and gave me a new perspective I did not have before. Someone can explain a high tide to you and how it operates all day, but until you really see it and feel it to the degree that I saw, it's just not the same experience.
It's funny imagine if we took all our modern day wisdom quotes and threw them in their too The Bible could be such a Good Book (no pun intended) if as you said throw away the garbage that is in there so basically 80% of it!
The "contradictions" part stopped being a problem for me as I began to study writings like the Teo Te Ching, for example. What I'm referring to is the paradoxical and seemingly contradictory nature of deep, ineffable spiritual teaching. Here is an example to demonstrate: "He who does not know, speaks. He who knows, speaks." This is a deeply profound teaching that resonates in my soul and heart and mind now, but 10 years ago I would have laughed at it as silliness. I won't try to interpret it in this post, but I'm just pointing out that Proverbs does contain a lot of this same style of "paradox" teaching. It is meant to be "felt" and not necessarily "understood" logically on a simple intellectual level. Few more examples: "hate your father and mother and follow me" or "die to yourself". All of these teaching don't make logical sense in a literal way. They speak to a deeper level, the seeming duality between body and spirit. Embracing the paradox and letting go of the "need" to "understand it" with the mind leads to true understanding and peace. So in that sense, I have a respect for these ancient proverbs. Where I resonate with you is how hyper "hard line" fundamentalists interpret the Bible with laughable amounts of literalism. God literally told Moses to kill the dude for picking up sticks on the sabbath? hmm...how did God literally speak? with a literal mouth? lol
"God literally TOLD Moses to kill people for picking up sticks." "God told Moses to literally KILL people for picking up sticks." 2 completely different ways to say that. Way 2 does not limit us to a physical mouth. Also, yes. God does supposedly have a literal mouth. "Lol". Do not embrace contradiction. Logic > Epistemology.
What you are referring to is not thinking but a type of cognitive trickery that can make any nonsense sound wise by evoking visual and emotive language. For example: "The summit of the wisdom of towers over the ocean of insecurity" "Out of the dirt of sadness grows a tree of love" "Healing energy powers potential for greatness" Etc.
@@hamobu Hmm...I'm not sure I communicated effectively. I'm simply referring to the style of rhetoric used by spiritual teachers that can be effective at getting past mental blockage and into hearts. Like, "The way to overcome pain is to go through it, not to avoid it". The idea being that worrying, fearing, and desperately trying to never feel pain leads to more pain. But to accept that life is painful and to make peace with that, leads to freedom from the felt need to never feel pain. My explanation is hard to remember. But the phrase "The way to overcome is to go through" is memorable and proverbial. It's just a literary device really. Not a huge deal. Proverbs has a few of these "proverbial" sayings, that's all.
@@CBraximus Hi! I don't totally follow your point. You said that God does supposedly have a literal mouth? He does? Are you saying that or are you saying that's what other people say? Sorry for not understanding.
13:24 Physical discipline is a common theme in Proverbs (see e.g., 10:13; 17:10; 22:15; 23:13-24; 29:15). It is viewed as an important part of the correction and training of a child, to teach him to avoid wrong behavior, to embrace what is right, and to build godly character. Equally important, physical discipline is an expression of love for a child, while the one who spares the rod hates his son. Taking into account all of the teaching of Proverbs, physical discipline of a child must never be severe and must always be exercised in love. Cf. Heb. 12:5-11. ESV Study Bible
There was a study of cultural universals and "contradictory proverbs" is one. Consider our proverbs "look before you leap" and "he who hesitates is lost". Or "a stitch in time saves nine" and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" - not quite a contradiction but still. So, contradictory proverbs in Proverbs are no surprise, certainly not if you consider it a collection of cultural wisdom.
@@MindShift-Brandon Yeah. I suppose there's two key measuring sticks. There's the "is this the perfect word of god?" and the "is this bit basically OK or is it horrendous/ridiculous?", and my point speaks to the latter. So contradictory proverbs pass the lesser yardstick but fail the greater one.
Kinda looks like Cerce from GOT Anyway, fear of doing bad shit is a good thing. Think of ppl being afraid of texting while driving. That’s a legitimate fear everyone should have. Yet people do it anyway, and thus, consequences. OK, I’ll watch the video now.
Speaking of The Book of Job did you ever read this Comic Book Series of a Modern Day Job who's a Government Contractor who gets sent to Iraq during The Second Gulf War and Job loses his whole family in an Attack by AlQueda and he himself is wounded so bad that he spends years hooked up on lifesupport thru an Iron Lung and has lost most of his limbs That Comic Book Series REALLY FUCKING TRAMATIZED and I had graduated high school at the time.
Off topic, but I was wondering what you think of glossolalia? When I watch videos of Copeland. Paula White and the deceased Hagin babbling and acting like arseholes, it makes my blood boil. I don't find it just pathetic or amusing....it actually enrages me. Do you feel the same way?
20:30 This is exactly why I hate proverbs, not just biblical proverbs but proverbs of any kind, as an ultimate authority on wisdom. They are soundbites used to sound smart, but the thing about general statements is that they can always be picked apart. This is why we have conversations when discussing wisdom, intelligence and morality. Short and quippy quotes are attractive, but they lack the nuance that would come from following it. Listen to a fool? Or don't listen to a fool? Should the authors of Proverbs be considered worse than fools if they claimed to be wise? After all, you can't consider your advice as wisdom if you don't at least acknowledge you are wise for following it. This is the mess we get when we look at this from an absolute standpoint, rather than ask ourselves WHY it may or may not be wise based on a certain time and place. 24:10 I would advocate for tearing it apart, and wished the book of proverbs did the same, especially if it advocated for it having fruits of wisdom. On the flipside however, a lot of these proverbs seem more like observations rather than real words of wisdom that make you go "huh, that's something to think about". Like Proverbs 29:2, "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when the wicked rule, the people groan." I doubt that I need a god to tell me this. The sad thing about the "sparing of the rod" statement is that many Christians will deny any psychological studies on spanking and caning, either calling it a lie of the devil, or that continued scientific studies will eventually show that spanking and caning are good for children or find other studies supporting it. They are more willing to trust a book that claims to be wise over studies that did the work to determine its stance. Proverbs 1 even has the gall to play on the reader's sense of self-preservation,(so that the reader will listen to them) rather than on a desire from the reader to be a good character. Proverbs 1:33 says: "but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease, without fear of harm.” It is meant to be a promise of the preservation of one's self, which can lead to control. A running theme in Proverbs is "good people get good things, bad people will get bad things". Yet as you will establish later on in the book of Ecclesiastes (9:11): 11 Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favour to the skilful; but time and chance happen to them all. Actions borne from wisdom and goodness do not always produce good outcomes. Sometimes, no good deed goes unpunished. Your last rant mirrors my own stance on the things Christians say. Many Christians, particularly evangelicals are not attracted to goodness but power. I've stated this before, but words like "divine retribution", "vengeance is the Lord's", "fear of the Lord", "punishment of sins", "satisfying God's wrath" ALL imply power being a necessary component in Christian doctrine. Because for punishment and vengeance to be a factor, power is necessary. The power to judge, the power to hurt others, the "awe" one gets beholding something powerful. If goodness is tied to knowledge and expressed through actions (like the good Samaritan) then power and authority should not be factors. If a proposed god came along and stated that he gives charity for all, or his religious proposition is based on universalism, prevention of evil or rehabilitation of people, similar to our systems, then why don't people move towards that? No one has got to be punished, everyone gets to live in harmony eventually in the afterlife after rehabilitation. Yet Christians will reject that because there is no "punishment for sins".
Happy SBS Day!
I look forward to these!
Thanks!
Finally had the chance to listen through. Thank you again for the level of time and thought you put into these videos. Your work is much appreciated!
@carlasmith9093 thanks, Carla!
@@MindShift-Brandonhey Brandon, lifelong atheist here, and I have a question. Some context first, I think that the best argument to disbelieve in God is divine hiddenness. If an all loving God wants a relationship with me then surely he could make himself known to me, right? But Christians often say that humans rebelled against god over and over again and he no longer wants to reveal himself or something to that effect. My question is what are god's last words in the Bible to humanity? Does he straight up say "hey I gave you a lot of chance and I'm not going to be here anymore"? Basically is what all these Christians say actually biblical?
Probably my least favorite verse in the Bible is the "spare the rod, spoil the child" one. That verse has caused me personally a lot of emotional and physical pain. Also, I don't trust people who say, "Sure my parents may have beaten me, but I turned out fine." Often those people use this verse and their "I turned out fine" to justify abusing their children. I have seen and experienced it personally.
You always look so sad and pathetic, Danny. It always brightens my day!
My ex-friend talked to me about that verse.
Okay that isn’t the Bible. But there is something similar. Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them Proverbs 13:24. Now whatever the means to hit or use the rod to lead depends on how you read. Which is my problem. Why couldn’t God interpret the Bible for himself so no confusion?
@@Robohead-z6z Well you see, God is not the author of confusion. Satan is. So, you must not understand what God is saying in this verse because the devil is confusing you. God clearly wants people to hit their children with rods. /S
Agreed. My grandfather used to whip me with a bull whip. No joke! My grandmother would make me go get a “switch” off the tree and I even had to strip the leaves off of it.
My childhood, as with most children of Christian’s and most likely Amy controlling religion, was robbed from me!
I’m 56 now and can say that 50 years of my life was robbed from me from all the “Christian” indoctrination I suffered. So glad to be past that now!
God of the Bible follows Machiavelli's advice: "Better to be feared than loved if you can't be both"
Indeed he does!
Yahweh is the original blueprint for the psychopathic Machiavellian narcissists of the modern day
Hmmm . Looks like Michaivelli plagiarized
Force people to love you based on punishment if you don't display actual actions of love on a daily basis. Evil disgustingly evil
I recently came across your channel when looking for safe spaces online because as a Black woman in South Africa being atheist is not something encouraged, it is frowned upon so there's not much community.
My grandfather was a preacher but I'm realising how selective he was with the bible. I went atheist when I started reading the bible on my own, like a book from the first chapter but you've also made me realise how much I didn't know / understand it.
Thank you for the upload and the work you do.
Thing with atheism is that it's not a thing. You don't have to profess atheism or defend it. Atheism doesn't care what you think about it. If you go along the dominant religion in your society to be safe or even to just fit in, atheism does not care. God will not care either, since he doesn't exist.
Other than religion, there are many things that I feign mild interest in to fit in. I don't really care about local sports teams. I think patriotism is stupid. A lot of rituals, like weddings and wearing a tie at work, are pointless. Religion is no different in that respect.
I really appreciate you sharing. I hope you find some relief in communities like this one and elsewhere. Glad to hear the channel is useful for you!
I'm South African too hehe. As a athiest transwoman for me I flat out say that I'm an athiest if anyone dares speaks about god to me.
You are probably not as alone as you think you are, I send my love from Australia.
May I suggest watching some channels 1: Atheist Experience 2: The Line and 3 Mythvision -all youtube the conversations and information is invaluable and you will see how so many are in your position, the religious bullies are afraid and won't win in the long run. 💙💙🤠🤠💙💙
❤
I feel like Proverbs has done some of the most harm to children of anything in the Bible. It’s this religion’s treatment of children that drove me away from the church in the first place.
I grew up in a teetotaler household; no alcohol whatsoever because drinking is a sin; "wine in the Bible meant grape juice" (even though it's glaringly apparent that it's not), etc. So one of my favorite proverbs is the one where it literally says "Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to the bitter in soul." I guess getting hammered isn't always sinful. 😅
I had an uncle what was teaching a Sunday School Class in a Southern Baptist Church some years ago. He was ask if the wine discussed by Jesus was real wine and he said yes.
Later that afternoon he was visited by deacons of the Church telling him to not say that in Church.
He told them to make a list of all the things he should lie about while teaching in Sunday School Classes.
Soon after that they found a new teacher.
I had a friend in high school (back in the 60s) whose family was Christian Reformed. Drinking was supposedly frowned on...but one Sun Day I was invited over for lunch with them and hang around with my friend. What did I discover hidden away? Why, home made wine. I wasn't looking for it, but there it was. Also, didn't Paul tell Timothy to drink a little wine, because he had a stomach problem? And yeah, like there was no fermented "fruit of the vine" back then. So stupid to believe that.
@@johntiggleman4686lol. Alcohol is like, one of the first things mankind invented after fire. The ancient Egyptians used to have beer for breakfast, because their version was basically cream of wheat that made you drunk.
O yes, I 'll never forget when the Assembly of god pastor stood there and preached that ALL the wine in the bible was simply grape juice, that nobody in the ancient world would actually drink booze, LMAO, gimmee a damn break.
@@earlt.7573 They are molding and shaping the bible to fit what you want to believe. That seems to be common practice. But then there is not really not much to start with as a foundation anyway (bible) so what does it matter.
"Go to the ant, you slacker! Observe its ways and become wise." Prov. 6:6 => this one's nice
There was a song based off that verse I sung as a kid lololol. I can still hear it in my head 😂
26:43
This whole, "cheaters never win and winners never cheat" mentality pops up so much throughout history when it's just blatantly wrong.
I feel like the people who have cheated to get into power say these things so that other people can think they aren't playing with a stacked deck
Reminds me a bit of people who think The Rock is not on steroids and other enhancers. You will never ever achieve what he has physically without being on what he is and even then probably not. Not condemning the use but the lie. People literally and figuratively k@ll themselves to try to get the same results when it's not possible without the "help".
@@GameTimeWhy I remember seeing something a while ago about gym trainers needing to have very serious conversations with people after Fight Club came out to let them know that they will never look like Brad Pitt from Fight Club
@@EzaleaGraves i hadn't heard that but not surprised. I think people forget what the "good old days" were actually like.
Hebrew men, and Solomon especially, giving couples relationship advice is laughable. Also, digging the Bob Ross type painting in the back.👍🏽
"What is more powerful, what is a better motivator than avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure?"
Reminder: Christianity's most enduring symbol is a Greco-Roman implement specifically designed to inflict as much pain as possible prior to death. Pain and punishment are embedded into the very soul of this religion.
The Bible constantly teaches about the dangers of excess. It never says that our goal is to seek as much pleasure as possible. Because it knows that's not a good thing. And people addicted to opioids are proving that correct.
@@theboombodyand then the reward for limiting pleasure here is eternal pleasure after. Makes sense.
Ecclesiastes will be epic. It's one of the most based books of the Bilbe. It's basically Epicurus + 5% God stuff
Ha, it is a standout for sure!
I get a little chuckle when I hear the verse about Solomon being the wisest person ever.
It sort of implies him to be wiser than God. And definitely says more than Jesus. from what distinction there might be there.
its just such an insane claim, like your book of wise sayings better be eternally ground breaking, not just slightly above par for the time lol.
@@MindShift-Brandont's also a bit ironic. That in essence this book calls itself massively wise, even though that stance is explicitly called unwise.
I guess it's a do what I say, not what I do lesson?
I really appreciate the amount of work you do to prepare your videos.
Thank you for being here.
My pleasure! Thanks for being a part of it!
I do agree that you should never think yourself wise. It's that sort of pride that makes people stick to their wrong options. Always ask yourself, not 'if', but 'how' am I wrong.
yes i like the concept in general. Even Socrates tells us how important it is to to recognize that we know nothing, but the alternative shouldn't be to be cast down as a fool for trying to do what the book is already telling you lol.
@@MindShift-Brandon agreed!
Thank you, Brandon. It's so healing and validating to have this resource...like an index to jump to. When family try to send me random Bible quotes, it's disorienting to not know how to respond. 😵💫 I'm out of practice reading "bible-ese"but it's so nice to hear your clear explanation of the chapter in a way that makes sense and doesn't leave me with the used car salesman feeling that the bible does. 🥴🤢 (Hashtag not all used car salespeople)
Ha! So happy to help provide some ammo
I just want to say I really appreciate this series. It's been at least a decade since I sat down and read through the whole Bible and it's been so helpful in my own deconstruction journey to hear the Bible approached with the same systematic approach that we were taught to apply to literally every other work of literature. Trying to read it this way as a child raised in it really laid the groundwork for my path out of the faith but hearing this from a purely secular perspective is so helpful with where I am at now vs my attempts to read it this way while still in the faith. I'm learning so much, and it's bringing back memories of my questioning that I otherwise feel so removed from decades later.
Appreciate that! Glad to be of any help at all
As a child I found it odd that Solomon allegedly possessed more wisdom than jesus.
Yes but the christian excuse is Jesus, though fully man, was also somehow fully god lol
@@MindShift-Brandon burn. LOL
Thanks for your continuous illuminating analysis of the books of the Bible. I enjoy learning and you are a wonderful teacher.
Glad to hear that! Thank you
You are really good at this
Thanks, Larry!
For many years I didn’t know that there other proverbs from other cultures around the world, not just in the Bible itself. I must admit, I was a little surprised by this. Thank you once again, Brandon, for another great video! You made my day! 😊
Glad to hear it. I think for this Sunday’s video im going to cover other ancient wisdom literature
@@MindShift-Brandon thanks, Brandon!
@@MindShift-BrandonSome ancient wisdom from my people: if you find a naked woman lying on the beach, don't take her home and marry her, no matter how hot she is. There's a non-zero chance she might be a selkie, and she'll run off on you as soon as she finds her seal skin.
@robertmoore2049
"A stitch in time saves nine," is a proverb with which you're probably familiar. So is, "Don't count your chickens until they're hatched."
Very interesting.
To be apprehensive of certain things is good. It keeps us from being foolhardy and causing ourselves harm.
But some types of fear are simply runaway emotions that cloud our thinking, which can cause harm.
@20:24 I'm glad you pointed this out because I was raised with a Christian perspective on Proverbs and it's really hard for me to see outside of that framework. However, I'm going to play devil's advocate. This passage sounds a lot like the Dunning-Kruger effect, where those who've learned a bit drastically overrate their abilities compared to those who don't know anything about a subject, and those who really are experts.
I’m “power listening “ today while working. Thank you Brandon. This series is fantastic and very important. It’s really helping me understand this book.
The invisible sky wizard feeds off fear like Pennywise🤡
Beep beep Johnny! They all float down here. Kiss me fat boy!
Look into my dead lights.
Tim Curry in the TV mini series was the best Pennywise. Also was excellent as Darkness in the movie Legend.
Pennywise or It liked to terrorise the children because he said they tasted better like that.
What dose god get out of it?
Yes, God-the biggest bully in the room! Thanks for this, Brandon!
So excited. Your channel has been a companion of mine, as I try to navigate my relationship with a fundamentalist having two kids and having very different views about Christianity and religion in general
Glad to be here for you. Its a near impossible situation we are in. Thanks for watching!
You always apologize for going off but I love it when you start going on a rant lol you be too on point
Enjoying the journey. Was wondering if Proverbs 31 would make the problem passage list when I first started listening to this. That would be the biggest problem from my perspective. (How many women would agree with that... probably a lot)
Lady wisdom and Pallas Athena both being matriarchal personifications of wisdom sounds like another instance of the bible taking inspiration from other theism's of the day
“I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by guilt, remorse or delusions of morality.”
-Alien
It never occurred to me, but I think your point of branching out would be really helpful for Abrahamic believers. Dogmatic religions seem to force their believers to think in just one way and live in their own bubbles, without realizing how diverse the moral landscape actually is. Then again there's also diversity within each of these religions as well, and believers often choose to believe their version is the only true version. It's important for them to realize that truth is nothing unique to their own cultures and it really does not require any sort of faith in the divine.
Woohoo it’s Thursday! This episode was very thought provoking. Thanks again
My pleasure! Thank you
Thank you again for your dedication to reality.
What a great phrase. Thanks!
I think I would prefer the proverbs of a large, yellow, land-walking, talking, hypersonic flying, and regenerative cephalopod who teaches life in the midst of lessons aimed towards assassinating him over the rather lackluster and lackadaisical ones of the Bible. For example:
"The difference between the novice and the master is that the master has failed more times than the novice has tried."
RIP Koro-sensei.
Thanks for putting Proverbs in its place in such a concise way. Take care,Brandon.
Appreciate that!
I think there is more wisdom today, about narcissism and abusive relationships that the bible really falls flat on.
As an atheist and secular humanist, raised Southern Baptist. I love the deep meanings you explain about stories we NEVER heard in Sunday school or church. Thank you, Brandon.
When my son was a little boy, he started having a temper tantrum, so I spanked him, but he just got angrier. So then I picked him up and put him on my shoulder and I patted him on his back, and I said your a good boy, and he immediately fell asleep on my shoulder. I never spanked him again.
children actually have about asmuch awareness as adults but their only focuse is what causes them joy and what hurts them so giving a children love for doing good is probably more important than disipline for doing bad tho its obviously important to make sure your child doesnt get a habit of doing bad things
@@fishman2586 I guess I'm lucky, because my children never did anything bad.
@@James-wv3hx ive never heard anyone say that before tbh
Very wise words! Thanks so much Brandon!❤
Thank you much. Appreciate that!
I've been whatching your series along with the book overviews from the bible project. Its quite the interesting contrast
Happy thursday btw
Yea i think we have quite different perspectives/objectives going in. As believers, they are clearly trying to explain away or not cover the issues I see as blatant.
@@MindShift-Brandon Thats fair concern, tho they actually present usefull explorations in their podcast
I agree theres useful info about the books and factoids etc. but i recall so much skipping and reframing of the parts that are clearly false, immoral, or contradicting. They have their agenda for sure. As do I though
@@MindShift-Brandon fair point
❤Jermaine Jackson power
Warning it is intense. Will last 3 days
Hi Brandon! Just curious, have you ever read the Norse, Hávamál? It is a collection of words of advice and everyday wisdom, attributed to the Norse God Odin. It is also separated into sections of advice, poems and narratives. I've found it to be entertaining and good advice, especially for the time and place.
Other great examples of wisdom are the Tao te Ching and the words of Confusious.
I do have a cool copy of a study Havamal and yes love the other two. Im going to so a Sunday video soon of other wisdom lit just like how i did other gods
“But do they move on from that town? NOPE. They set up camp…” LOL
I love asking where "the golden rule" comes from (do unto others). Theists say Luke 6:31, I point out it (like so much else is borrowed as it occurs long before the bible in Buddhism: “Whatever is disagreeable to yourself, do not do unto others” (The Buddha, Udana-Varga 5.18 - 6th century BC). Confucianism: “Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you” (Confucius, Analects 15.23 - 5th century BC). It was not just (holy) Ghosts ideas they took from the far east. 🤔🤔
Yes plus thats a much better rule than the NT one
Keep up the great work! I hope to see you on the AE soon.
Thanks! That would be great! I did do the hangul with Matt a while ago and am excited to do more like it.
One of my least favorite sayings is "gods wisdom is not human wisdom."
Yes, agreed, and one of my favorites is Susan B. Anthony's saying, "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
Great job. Love your vibe ❤✌️
Hey thanks so much!
Happy Thursday! Looking forward to the listen!
Thanks for coming, Carla!
You really have to watch secular Bible study from Genesis and im gonna be here till revelation 🤧 I enjoy everything (especially when you go off track )😅 I didn't even consider things like literary analysis thank you
Thank you!
God seems like the most miserable, sadist and sadistic person that l have ever even heard of. He must be very lonely. Oh, I love your program 😊
Thanks for uploading!
Every Tues, Thurs, And Sunday! Thanks for being here!
@MindShiftSkeptic awesome 👌 would love to hear what are the other books that have give more wisdom than proverbs 😀
Maybe ill make that its own video. Thanks!
I’m really looking forward to the Song of Solomon!
The best devil's advocate I can offer for the "rod" part is similar to how men in the past, and yet many today: Are too stupid to realize things like the hymen myth.
Since: A SMALL minority of people, this is true on! So they just slap it across the board.
And for a VERY SMALL amount of children: The rod is the ONLY option. This is however ONLY on mentally defective children (and people). As, the kid running around and gleefully laughing as they stab other children with a knife, do NOT listen to "gentle encouragement" or whatever. They ARE a lost cause. Maybe in the future, we can figure out ways to treat these people. But as of now: We cannot. As in their brain, it's the "Why SHOULD I change? There's 0 consequences. And I get to do what I enjoy!".
In over 20 years, I've pretty much always seen the same outcome: They use the methods that would work on a normal child, is ignored, and moved around schools. Until they eventually come to a school, where the child picks the wrong victim. Often a neurodivergient kid, with no holds barred. And the child gets their teeth kicked in. And either INSTANTLY, or after a second beating. There is an immediate "Oh wow... things I do onto others CAN be done to me!" and a shock to their system that: If adults stand back and let them harm children, they ALSO stand back and let other children harm them... (This does fail and double backfire when you have entitled parents with spoiled brats.) Trailing off here, but we can assume these children have always existed. But I HIGHLY doubt those "parenting methods" were developed across the board, to deal with a fraction of the population. And most likely: Was to indoctrinate kids into the cult.
On the other part: ... We're kinda left with fundamentalists having to admit that either: The bible isn't 100 % true. OR: Childgrape and child sacrifice IS good AND moral.
They keep claiming they are prophecy, when they are just a collection of wisdom literature. Not unique to the bible and certainly not original to the bible.
In the movie A Bronx Tale, C asked Sonny the mafia boss if it was better to be feared or Loved. He responded "feared, fear lasts longer" .
It is a greater motivator.
Cosmic mafia boss.
And according to the book of Job, this Devil is little more than a hit man for God. A celestial Luka Brassi.
I have heard over the years that "fear" means respecting the Lord. Maybe, but seeing all the ass-whupping that's gone on in earlier books, I rather believe it means to be afraid.
Right. The context of god horrendously punishing people suggest fear means fear. And if we can just try to change words why dont christians ever do it with the good ones. You see when jesus says he loves is what it really means is he is jealous of us.
You make it clear glob is a creation of mankind's nature. glob is ancient us, perhaps. TY for this series!
27:17 is my personal favorite because iron
Doesn't
Actually
Sharpen
Iron.
Your friends are not able to "sharpen" you. They're probably about as smart (ahem) as you are. Find somebody who is steel which actually DOES sharpen iron.
Or a whetstone...which is probably what they actually used then.
2 things about halfway through:
It says it’s bad for a person to be wise in their own eyes… that doesn’t mean wise in accordance with Godly wisdom.
And the other thing is the word “hate” when used to describe he who spares the rod “hates his own son” means neither loves or hates. It means a lack of caring either way, or complete indifference. Not what the word hate has come to be known as today.
23:00 I heard someone interpret this as a Shepard's rod which is meant to guide and not a necessarily to beat.
I'm not sure how accurate that interpretation would be to time it was written, but it seemed like a plausible option.
Sounds about right to me.
While understanding the limits of 3000 year old wisdom and rejecting a literal fundie interpretation; proverbs are intended as situationaly true statements. They are destructive sometimes like how a poor indebted person is treated. That is how the depression years got so devastating and drawn out.
I appreciate how you said this and yes agreed.
Was wondering if you caught Proverbs 29:19 where the passage endorses beating as justifiable discipline over slaves. But like you articulated with the corporal punishment with the kids. They were just doing the best with what they had at the time.
If that's their best, then I can imagine their worst.
When I was in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, where there is a henotheistic approach that allows for the existence of a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father, the section of Proverbs where Lady Wisdom speaks was sometimes interpreted or theorized as coming from Heavenly Mother, under the title of Lady Wisdom. Not official doctrine by any means, but just thought it was interesting.
The name "Sophia" originally meant the kind of divine feminine wisdom you're talking about, too. She's in the bible and also Kabbalah tradition.
@@sundayoliver3147 That's super interesting! Is that the tradition you're from?
Just another comment. All the best.
Thanks!
The apostles: but lord what if people don’t want to hear your message.
Jesus: eh if people have ears to hear let them hear if not oh well.
Than we have the crusades the inquisition the 30 years war street evangelists praying on drug addicts, the complete destruction of a bunch of north and South American cultures…. Hmmm
I can't believe my long rant about the "rod and staff" did not get perceived by the next refresh. If I comment thrice, I'm sorry. I just wanna see if it pops up on my end.
22:10 - "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is still a phrase I didn't understand. Parents keep bringing this up to justify their primitive acts and their abuse. This happens for narcissists, who justify their methods of discipline with the Word of God. Looking at the Grim Reaper, its scythe is not a weapon for violence, but for "harvest". It harvests souls, but it also protects them in their passage to the afterlife. Therefore, the Grim Reaper can be akin to a Shepherd - the rod to defend against predators, and the staff to guide and protect the flock.
Hurt and betray your child, and your child will turn on you. Minus the hate I mentioned as someone who has suffered through this under the excuse of the passage, it's like you're beating an animal that doesn't know better. Children are young. They don't know why such bad things happen without knowing the cause behind it. Christianity and Catholicism has robbed children of a fruitful and memorable youth more than it has helped them.
Thanks Brandon. And agree 100%, when you lose the religious baggage, literature like Proverbs provide interesting insights into bronze and iron age Levant cultural thinking.
Thank you, yes becomes very clear and manmade.
Absolute side note, how do you find the art for your thumbnails? The art is stunning
Thanks, Hannah. I use an AI art tool to generate it all.
I was terrified of the God of the Bible, and it also made me live it a state of constantly looking for threats. It's a shitty way to live. You can't relax, evil is every where. You are at war with imaginary forces, it sucked. It's so freeing to no longer believe in hell, the devil or rewards and punishment after death. I thought God hated my grandmother because she's Catholic and the idolatry I almost quit talking to her for several months I didn't go to her house. One day I was like really God's jealous of his creation? The creator of all things jealous of his creation. Sounds like man not God, also The creator made me the way I am then sent men to write a book to constantly remind me how terrible I am. And will punish me for being the way he created me to be? Seriously! Do you punish a lion for killing a gazelle, so many things I thought were sinful because of the Bible, I'm coming to find that we have little control to change them we were created that way they are part of human nature. Therefore they can not be sinful. Like cowardliness for example we have a natural fight of flight response to perceived dangers so if I run rather than fight I'm gonna burn in the lake of fire for being a coward according to Christianity.
Nice.
Thanks!
"again, that book isn't perfect, when it comes to women's issues" ... really? What a surprise, given the rest of this wonderful, wonderful bible, being otherwise soooo supportive of women. 🤣
Lol!
The bible always hated women. Heaven is just a boy's club 😊
@@jaycahuenga6416lmao
😊
For a quick reference, could you bullet point list, book by book how, each:
Obey
Fear, fear me, the lord etc.
Killing children
Abortion
Murder / Massacre by God,
Sacrificing to God,
Saverly condoned by God, instructions by God on how to treat your slaves, and all the other atrocities committed by or commanded by God
❤❤❤
My guess would be that most of these trolls you speak about in the Comment section don't even watch the video. Or at least not the entire thing.
On the verses on the fear of the lord, I've read that in John Walton's book ANE Thought & The Old Testament “'Fear of the god' is not belief... but the manifestation of an attitude of reverence for the gods and love of ones fellow human beings”. It might be quite a reach to say that this represent a selfish act in general.
Thou its fair to consider your comments given how yahweh is portrayed in such a violent manner.
(This is not to sound like a smartass btw, just a piece of info you might find usefull in understanding these books)
Understood. Appreciate it
Yeah, and just because they were all, scared out of their minds, by Jehovah...
Doesn't mean we have, to be.@@kettei7743
Thank you again for another fine presentation of questioning and examining the Bible's insistence on claiming God's total domineering (and gleefully humiliating) superiority over all of mankind and on you accurately pointing out innumerable examples of where the Bible simply embarrasses and mires itself.
Thanks for watching
It also contradicts what Paul said. God didn’t give us a spirit of fear, but yet we should fear him. Honestly I think Solomon wasn’t getting wisdom from anyone but his own butthole.
The Proverbs are interesting, to say the least. But I also try to follow The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition. I'll relate just a few: Small print leads to large risk. Profit is its own reward. Anything worth doing is worth doing for money (my favorite). Don't trust a man wearing a better suit than yours.
What is your take on Proverbs 8 ? I will argue that Sophia is in reference to the holy spirit, being the divine feminine aspect of God, that was later obscured by saying that the Trinity is made up of three male figures showing the dove as the holy ghost instead of a woman, because these men couldn't handle a woman being described as "wisdom" herself.
I got a request.
Can you compare Biblical God to the Great old ones from HP lovecraft and see how he compares to them?
While I'm an ex Christian I honestly think most of the Lovecraft gods, outer gods elder gods and great old ones (Especially Azathoth) are much worse than Yaweh.
I don’t think sparing the rod means beating your children, since it’s a sheep herders book, a battered sheep isn’t of much value. The shepherd uses his rod as a tool for guidance.
Def one Christian interpretation that many see , since Jesus chastens/scourges believers etc. ... So it means discipline, which is not a synonym for violence.
What about the rod the male slave owner was allowed by God in o.t. to beat his female slave with though ( so long as she didn't die )?
That was a literal rod. And so people can see what they want to see or have been conditioned/ taught.
As God allows for so much violence in the bible against women and children ( mass genocide / beatings etc ) it's easy to see how many people think it's ok. Sure, Jesus took the little children in his arms and blessed them...but later he told the mourning women to weep for their children and themselves...who would be massacred and laid in the rubble of Jerusalem at his behest.
Jekyll hyde.
@@soniachambers6460 I must agree, anyone can interpret the Bible to suit their beliefs. And I’m not sure the Bible specify male or female slaves slave to be beaten. It’s more either.
And I agree the Bible is a vile book
Ok, so I'm late to the party here, but I noticed there doesn't seem to be any Christian Trolls in this comment section. Your little spiel at the end must have had them thinking for once 😂
I’ve tried to send a message twice and it didn’t go through. Or maybe it just doesn’t show up on my phone???
Well i got this one lol but no others. RUclips will ghost or block certain comments depending on verbiage and if you try to include links.
@@MindShift-Brandon I was just trying to refer a book and place that you can get that book
@@MindShift-Brandon RUclips is way too touchy. The place is exotic india.
The book is Tattvajnana Dvatrimshika by Acarya Siddhasena Divakara. It’s a Jain book. In English it means 32 Verses on Rational Thought.
@@MindShift-Brandon I think that you or any atheist for that matter would love the Jain sutra.
You can find it is you search in the search Sanmatisutra.
It is easy to imagine how some priest or King ordered that wise sayings being compiled for the benefit of all. A lot of this folk wisdom probably preceded grander theological claims. You can see how 'Don't eat unclean animals' might morph from a quasi-scientific observation that people eating pork are getting sick so maybe we shouldn't do that' to later being transfigured by the priestly caste into a divine ordinance.
Alternatively, it has been proposed that banning pork specifically was a way to get people to forget what people meat tastes like.
I have a question: What does having fear of the Lord has to do with wisdom? I can get that some religious people do behave good cause of God, but it also has nothing to do with Wisdom. Most of the stuff about knowledge or wisdom about the God is that "he created stuff" but never goes more than that.
The fear of God is more like awe. I remember that feeling when I saw an uncharacteristically high tide during a hurricane once. It was definitely something to see and gave me a new perspective I did not have before. Someone can explain a high tide to you and how it operates all day, but until you really see it and feel it to the degree that I saw, it's just not the same experience.
It's funny imagine if we took all our modern day wisdom quotes and threw them in their too
The Bible could be such a Good Book (no pun intended) if as you said throw away the garbage that is in there so basically 80% of it!
The "contradictions" part stopped being a problem for me as I began to study writings like the Teo Te Ching, for example. What I'm referring to is the paradoxical and seemingly contradictory nature of deep, ineffable spiritual teaching.
Here is an example to demonstrate: "He who does not know, speaks. He who knows, speaks." This is a deeply profound teaching that resonates in my soul and heart and mind now, but 10 years ago I would have laughed at it as silliness. I won't try to interpret it in this post, but I'm just pointing out that Proverbs does contain a lot of this same style of "paradox" teaching. It is meant to be "felt" and not necessarily "understood" logically on a simple intellectual level.
Few more examples: "hate your father and mother and follow me" or "die to yourself". All of these teaching don't make logical sense in a literal way. They speak to a deeper level, the seeming duality between body and spirit. Embracing the paradox and letting go of the "need" to "understand it" with the mind leads to true understanding and peace.
So in that sense, I have a respect for these ancient proverbs. Where I resonate with you is how hyper "hard line" fundamentalists interpret the Bible with laughable amounts of literalism. God literally told Moses to kill the dude for picking up sticks on the sabbath? hmm...how did God literally speak? with a literal mouth? lol
"God literally TOLD Moses to kill people for picking up sticks."
"God told Moses to literally KILL people for picking up sticks."
2 completely different ways to say that. Way 2 does not limit us to a physical mouth.
Also, yes. God does supposedly have a literal mouth. "Lol".
Do not embrace contradiction. Logic > Epistemology.
What you are referring to is not thinking but a type of cognitive trickery that can make any nonsense sound wise by evoking visual and emotive language. For example:
"The summit of the wisdom of towers over the ocean of insecurity"
"Out of the dirt of sadness grows a tree of love"
"Healing energy powers potential for greatness"
Etc.
@@hamobu Hmm...I'm not sure I communicated effectively. I'm simply referring to the style of rhetoric used by spiritual teachers that can be effective at getting past mental blockage and into hearts. Like, "The way to overcome pain is to go through it, not to avoid it". The idea being that worrying, fearing, and desperately trying to never feel pain leads to more pain. But to accept that life is painful and to make peace with that, leads to freedom from the felt need to never feel pain.
My explanation is hard to remember. But the phrase "The way to overcome is to go through" is memorable and proverbial. It's just a literary device really. Not a huge deal.
Proverbs has a few of these "proverbial" sayings, that's all.
@@CBraximus Hi! I don't totally follow your point. You said that God does supposedly have a literal mouth? He does? Are you saying that or are you saying that's what other people say? Sorry for not understanding.
👍
Mike Johnson is a young earth creationist and orchestrator of J6.
13:24 Physical discipline is a common theme in Proverbs (see e.g., 10:13; 17:10; 22:15; 23:13-24; 29:15). It is viewed as an important part of the correction and training of a child, to teach him to avoid wrong behavior, to embrace what is right, and to build godly character. Equally important, physical discipline is an expression of love for a child, while the one who spares the rod hates his son. Taking into account all of the teaching of Proverbs, physical discipline of a child must never be severe and must always be exercised in love. Cf. Heb. 12:5-11. ESV Study Bible
There was a study of cultural universals and "contradictory proverbs" is one. Consider our proverbs "look before you leap" and "he who hesitates is lost". Or "a stitch in time saves nine" and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" - not quite a contradiction but still. So, contradictory proverbs in Proverbs are no surprise, certainly not if you consider it a collection of cultural wisdom.
Thats not my point though. The bible claims to be the perfect word of god.
@@MindShift-Brandon Yeah. I suppose there's two key measuring sticks. There's the "is this the perfect word of god?" and the "is this bit basically OK or is it horrendous/ridiculous?", and my point speaks to the latter. So contradictory proverbs pass the lesser yardstick but fail the greater one.
Can you give specific examples for how the wisdom changed?
Kinda looks like Cerce from GOT
Anyway, fear of doing bad shit is a good thing. Think of ppl being afraid of texting while driving. That’s a legitimate fear everyone should have. Yet people do it anyway, and thus, consequences. OK, I’ll watch the video now.
The tao teh ching!
That was a marathon with hurdles. You sailed over them, though! Proverbs is the quintessential double-minded man. Were we back to zero at the end?
Ha! Love that. Thanks, Beegee!
Speaking of The Book of Job did you ever read this Comic Book Series of a Modern Day Job who's a Government Contractor who gets sent to Iraq during The Second Gulf War and Job loses his whole family in an Attack by AlQueda and he himself is wounded so bad that he spends years hooked up on lifesupport thru an Iron Lung and has lost most of his limbs That Comic Book Series REALLY FUCKING TRAMATIZED and I had graduated high school at the time.
I hope more people with hit "like"...or are all of those people CHRISTIANS?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Off topic, but I was wondering what you think of glossolalia? When I watch videos of Copeland. Paula White and the deceased Hagin babbling and acting like arseholes, it makes my blood boil. I don't find it just pathetic or amusing....it actually enrages me. Do you feel the same way?
20:30 This is exactly why I hate proverbs, not just biblical proverbs but proverbs of any kind, as an ultimate authority on wisdom. They are soundbites used to sound smart, but the thing about general statements is that they can always be picked apart. This is why we have conversations when discussing wisdom, intelligence and morality. Short and quippy quotes are attractive, but they lack the nuance that would come from following it. Listen to a fool? Or don't listen to a fool? Should the authors of Proverbs be considered worse than fools if they claimed to be wise? After all, you can't consider your advice as wisdom if you don't at least acknowledge you are wise for following it. This is the mess we get when we look at this from an absolute standpoint, rather than ask ourselves WHY it may or may not be wise based on a certain time and place.
24:10 I would advocate for tearing it apart, and wished the book of proverbs did the same, especially if it advocated for it having fruits of wisdom.
On the flipside however, a lot of these proverbs seem more like observations rather than real words of wisdom that make you go "huh, that's something to think about". Like Proverbs 29:2,
"When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when the wicked rule, the people groan."
I doubt that I need a god to tell me this.
The sad thing about the "sparing of the rod" statement is that many Christians will deny any psychological studies on spanking and caning, either calling it a lie of the devil, or that continued scientific studies will eventually show that spanking and caning are good for children or find other studies supporting it. They are more willing to trust a book that claims to be wise over studies that did the work to determine its stance.
Proverbs 1 even has the gall to play on the reader's sense of self-preservation,(so that the reader will listen to them) rather than on a desire from the reader to be a good character. Proverbs 1:33 says:
"but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease, without fear of harm.”
It is meant to be a promise of the preservation of one's self, which can lead to control. A running theme in Proverbs is "good people get good things, bad people will get bad things". Yet as you will establish later on in the book of Ecclesiastes (9:11):
11 Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favour to the skilful; but time and chance happen to them all.
Actions borne from wisdom and goodness do not always produce good outcomes. Sometimes, no good deed goes unpunished.
Your last rant mirrors my own stance on the things Christians say. Many Christians, particularly evangelicals are not attracted to goodness but power. I've stated this before, but words like "divine retribution", "vengeance is the Lord's", "fear of the Lord", "punishment of sins", "satisfying God's wrath" ALL imply power being a necessary component in Christian doctrine. Because for punishment and vengeance to be a factor, power is necessary. The power to judge, the power to hurt others, the "awe" one gets beholding something powerful.
If goodness is tied to knowledge and expressed through actions (like the good Samaritan) then power and authority should not be factors. If a proposed god came along and stated that he gives charity for all, or his religious proposition is based on universalism, prevention of evil or rehabilitation of people, similar to our systems, then why don't people move towards that? No one has got to be punished, everyone gets to live in harmony eventually in the afterlife after rehabilitation. Yet Christians will reject that because there is no "punishment for sins".
I don't know you but you're cool anyway