Reading the Herculaneum Scrolls (with Brent Seales)
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- Опубликовано: 12 июн 2024
- In this episode of the Toldinstone Podcast, Dr. Brent Seales and I discuss the fascinating challenge of "virtually unwrapping" the Herculaneum Papyri.
0:00 Beginnings
3:08 The power of X-rays
4:03 The Herculaneum Scrolls
7:08 Scanning the scrolls
8:45 The En-Gedi Scroll
10:10 Papyrus and ink
12:21 Enter the particle accelerator
14:21 Machine learning 101
16:42 Fragments are the key
18:33 The Vesuvius Challenge
21:40 The other library
It’s fascinating to me how vastly populated a library from that time could be, and that numerous, similar libraries could have existed contemporaneously with it. It makes me wonder of what information would be retained and what would be lost if the internet, say, were to vanish. Good video!
The media that the internet is written in are generally not going to last beyond 50-100 years AFAIK. So you get a similar situation as these papyri, where typically things will disappear unless recopied or stored under ideal conditions.
every once in a while I am reminded that most information is still NOT on the internet rather than on it..
At that time, the city of Rome had close to 30 public libraries this extensive collections of books. This is more libraries per capita than most us cities today.
Look up the Internet Archive and Project Gutenberg to see what is done to preserve paper and digital data.
Considering the current status of US education and its currently popular feelings-based ideology the lack of public libraries surprises me not at all.
It's really easy to take our historical knowledge for granted, but in reality, the only reason we have it is because heroes like this man. People that are fighting against the very destructive and unstoppable nature time itself and ripping from his insatiable mouth our own past. Truly inspiring. Thank you so much.
What I would most love to see discovered in the Herculaneum scrolls would be lost works of Roman and Greek historians. I think it would be especially interesting to find more about such things as Spartacus and the rebellion he led, which of course was a local event in the area (since it started in Capua, not far from Herculaneum) and would therefore be a matter of local historical interest in the Roman era.
Oh yeah so many Livius books lost
Also could be there Sulla s autobiography
Scipio s autobiography or the History writen by his son
And when you think every oné loved in ancient times Alexander the Great so having Ptolemaios I autobiography there IS nôt unrealistic
I'd rather see something we know almost nothing about. More ethnographies and histories of the rest of Europe - Germanic, Dacian, Thracian etc.
Using ancient Babylonian records and texts that are now lost, Berossus (an Akkadian) published the Babyloniaca, a history of Babylon in Greek. That is something I would like to see.
Likewise, Manetho (an Egyptian) wrote the Aegyptiaca (Αἰγυπτιακά, Aigyptiaka), the "History of Egypt". That's another book I would like to see restored to the modern world.
I'd like to see more Greek literature and more personal correspondence, Greek, Roman, Christian, anything.
The ancient scholars would be proud to see us bridging different scientific fields together in this way.
How awesome that upon learning about Brent Seales from the 60 Minutes piece on his work trying to decode the Herculaneum Scrolls would lead me back to Told In Stone, one of my favorite youtube channels. I am very much looking forward to watching this video.
Weird, I did the same thing!
What. A. Title. What a guest! What an interview! 👏🏼 👏🏼 BRAVÁ
Dr. Brent Seales was an interesting guest, good at explaining, it was a very informative conversation. And an exciting project.
It would be interesting to read those Herculaneum Scrolls some day.
Then all that remains for me will be to read *the Elder Scrolls.* I might need help from some Ancestor Moths to do that.
I can't wait to see what comes out of it.
Wonderful interview, thank you.
Super interesting how all of these different scientific fields come together to create such great techniques! It's really inspiring to see what humans can achieve when they work together
I wasn't able to watch this until now, but WOW! If technology can read these scrolls this will be mind blowing! Fingers crossed 😮
Great interview! Hopefully you can have him back on after this challenge is successful!
What a fantastic interview! Future possibilities seem so bright…much like yourself and Dr. Seales!
Always appreciate your dedication and efforts!🇨🇦☺🇨🇦
Really wonderful - analogous to interviewing a monk touring the monastic libraries for the Medici..thank you.
So great that Dr Seales worked on Ein Gedi text. Guessing that parchment is easier to read than papyrus? Really cool programs now for re-assembling fragments. Painstaking!
Could we have Aristotle's Comedy? That would be amazing.
Amazing interview!!!
Amazing interview!
I like the fact that Dr. Seales gives direct answers, which indicate a clarity of thought.
I wonder about non-carbonized vs carbonized, if that makes a difference
If it wasn't carbonized, then it could be a lot easier (chemicals more like original, or "only" time degradation). Of course, if it wasn't carbonized it probably wouldn't have survived so you could say it's a precondition barring some better preservation like a bog.
If they're able to read the scrolls, and they seem extremely optimistic that they will be able to it within a year of so, there need to be Nobel Prizes involved for Dr. Seales and his team.
amazing technology and effort
Very exciting! Thank you for a fascinating conversation.
Thank you for this video
Wonderful Garrett, if we can decider even just some of them, Pete Hutley, Newcastle, Australia.
For the shortest episode yet this one was elite.
Wow nice work!
great update :)
Been following this on and off since I first heard about it in college in like 2009.
I think that Epicurus texts would be awesome to find. XX century scholarships on Lucretius "De rerum natura" proved that he was not a mear epigon of Epicurus, so it would be great to see what the philosopher really thought about things.
Lost Greek plays by Sophocles, etc
May I ask if you know what type of ink was used in the scrolls? Have they figured that part out yet?
i soooo hope you pull this off....ē cosi eccitante.
I'm looking into that mirror and I think of Umberto Eco. Aristoteles' second book on Poetica!
You must not transgress the pillars of Hercules.
Thanks so much. Does any mass spectrometer help? There may be a substance in the ink that is unique. If just that element could be detected, that could be seen. Has chemical analysis been done on any of the material? It would not be an actual visualization. It would be synthetic assembly of the text based on the position of atoms uniquely in the ink.
What's fascinating to me is that the Library of Alexandria burned in 48 BCE,.... it is conceivable that copies of manuscripts/scrolls from the Library of Alexandria may be included as copies in the Library collection of Philodimus's of Gadara,... I remember Carl Sagan speaking of the loss of such historical telling,... according to the stories every ship that anchard in Egypt was required to surrender all written articles to be copied and stored in the Library of Alexandria,... this could open up 2,000 years of history predating Rome, Greece even Egypt,... there could exist amazing revelations about history to be known.
Nice.
I'd like to see someone take a hybrid approach where they combine reconstruction/archaeology (make new papyri, burn them) with machine vision.
We need to place some papyri in hypersonic missiles, then launch them at the next volcanic eruption.
Is it possible to experiment with elements and molecules introduce as a gas That would attach itself to the ink And very little to the Substrate ?
They're basically solid lumps of charcoal at this point.
Could not the same technology be applied to the previously opened (i.e. destroyed) scrolls to restore them digitally?
Is there an update on the contest?
And scanning the "open" scrolls?
(Havent watch the whole video yet)
The origin of the *Dirty Limerick* is up for realisation... 😉
This is blowing my mind. I am beyond curious about the Christian writings specifically, things about Christ possibly written down at or just after his death.
lol
@@rillloudmother Why is that funny? I'm fascinated by the origins of Religion.
Doubtful that there would be much in the way of Christian material in Pompeii less than 50 years after the crucifixion.
@@rhodamiller7338 I know. I'm just hoping that there will be a little. I'm hoping for writings on any ancient Religions.
This guy has flooded the internet with stories about his great technology. But why doesn't he show the papiri, which have been deciphered?
But what do they say? Has anything been published resulting from this amazing application of science?
So far, the few fragments deciphered discuss Epicurean philosophy.
Why didn't he ask how many of the library could be recovered and how many is undercovered still
Do we actually get to read it?
My dream is Pytheas' "Περί του ωκεανού".
It might be possible to obtain additional information from CT scans by using dual or multiple energy, and some appropriate algorithm. This works and is used in bone density scanners. (Whether this is doable with the accelerator, is a different question). Another avenue is MRI, but it would have to be set up for the detection of ink components instead of water, which is what most medical systems see. Afaik, they can detect other chemicals but imaging is limited.
"CHAPTER ONE: Oh, Jupiter, you should have seen this one totally hot chick - she was definitely Italian or some kind of Hispanicus." - Petrus Griffinus
Really, early christian material is what would interest him the most? Not, say, the missing books of Polybios or Livy? Or the primary material around which the surviving histories of Alexander were written? Or the missing works of any one of dozens of philosophers from Anaximander to the Epicureans? Or anything that would shed a light on our enormous lacuna in republican Roman law? Or the completely lost works on mathematics, science and engineering that we know nothing about other than their authors existed? Imagine there's a document describing the design of the Antikythera mechanism in there!
That someone is more interested in the mysticism of what was a tiny cult (and the tiny cult about which we already know, by far, the most about) than all of that, just because it is more closely related to how they identify, is rather sad for me. To each their own on matters of taste I guess, but still... If you have a mirror, use it to build a telescope to learn about the stars, not stare at your own face.
He is a Christian, therefore for him he *is* looking at the stars.
Christianity, like a lot of religions, actively discourages imagination.
Unfortunately, your response is both arrogant and ignorant.
Although I personally would be just as interested in ancient Roman sources as in ancient Christian sources, the fact of the matter is that the development, rise and spread of Christianity has been more profound over the last 2000 years than that of Rome. No doubt, again because I am a tremendous fan of both the Roman republic and empire, any primary Roman source would be an incredible and valuable gift. But it is utterly unfair of you to cast aspersions at a highly educated and literate individual who believe that Christian material is just as important.
@@Tony-if3tl Perhaps my original comment was ambiguously worded, I have nothing against someone who thinks Christian material is important _per se_ . What I find sad is someone who is interested in something primarily because it is related to their own sense of self-identity. The only justification for the interviewee's interest in early Christianity was _"as a Christian myself"_ .
I'd have the same reaction, eg, if someone really wanted to find the lost books of Pytheas just because they're from Marseille (Pytheas was from Massalia). The opposite would be someone who wants to find early Christian texts (along with cult documents of ISIS or Mithridatism) to better understand the religious revolution of late Hellenism / early Roman Imperial period.
Maybe I'm the weird one, but I think academic research of all types is best when pursued for a love of discovery and understanding for its own sake, rather than when motivated by an introspective tribalism.
@@Tony-if3tl I believe an aspersion is an attack on the integrity or intelligence of an opponent. As a former member of a Jesuit community, I have great respect for Christian scholars. I simply stated the objective reality or fact that Christianity discourages the pursuit of truth in favor of inspiring hope. Academia has allowed pursuit of truths that make some persons uncomfortable or angry to be confused with aspersions. This confusion reflects a sophomoric level of intellectual development.
Genesis tells us that humankind's fall from grace was due to eating fruit from the tree of knowledge. Priests and pastors from ancient times have warned the flock that questioning an Earth centered universe, papal infallibility, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, or the rightful succession of Jerry Falwell's son as heir are all inspired by Satan.
The epistles of St Paul inspire hope for a people enslaved by the Romans or in our day by materialism or substance abuse. This hope is powerful and has inspired people to live lives of joy. I question only if this hope finds its basis in objective reality or in a creation myth.
While Christians and secular humanists seek to burn, ban and cancel books and ideas as dangerous, this man is trying to resurrect a burnt book. I am grateful to him for that. But can we please acknowledge that Christians are responsible for burning more books than Vesuvius?
...that voice...I'm gone...