Vladimir Mihnev Except for antimaterial you're wrong. The definition lies in the way the rifle is applied, i.e. a DMR can very well be a bolt action rifle if issued on squad level to a common soldier, although the norm is to accurize the rifle already in use and equip it with magnifying optics. A sniper rifle is a rifle used by a sniper for sniping, and that SVD Dragunov you mentioned can very well fall under that category, out of necessity it would generally not be used as such though.
DMR: A standard infantry rifle that has been modified (accurized) to have a longer effective range than the standard rifle. Semi auto rifles: A rifle that automatically prepares the next round for firing, but does not fire it until the trigger is pulled again. Sniper rifle: A rifle with a longer effective range than the DMR. Usually a completely different rifle than the standard infantry rifle and fires a full power rifle cartridge. Anti-Materiel rifle: A rifle used for breaking through things like soft cover and lightly armored vehicles that the standard infantry rifle or sniper rifle cannot punch through.
SMG, PDW, and Machine Pistol are also very self explanatory, these videos are often for those who know little about these concepts, so differentiating between DMR's and other semi-auto rifles isn't too bad of an idea when considering those less knowledgeable.
As a sci-fi nerd, I know that, in addition to lightly armored soviet hordes, the P-90 also works against lightly armored, genetically modified humans with staff-like energy weapons. :)
Kinda odd looking one due to it's tilted receiver, I personally think it is ugly although it is brilliant design wise. But hey like humans: the best looking ones aren't always the most clever... Such a shame it is not chambered in 9x19.
Good thing you have mentioned at the start that this terminology can only be applied to English. As in my country, there's no difference between SMG and Machine pistol nor between assault rifle and battle rifle.
I feel so lucky to speak a language with all the words - new words even! No "machine pistols", "machine guns", "machine rifles" or "pistol machine guns". Samopal (SMG) "self-fire", kulomet (MG) "bullet thrower". Easy. Czech lacks just the term for "receiver", I think. Other than that, it has everything.
Here in South America have the same thing. A Battle Rifle and an Assault Rifle for us are the same thing, and anything that shoots Pistol ammo in full auto here is an SMG or a "sub-fusil". But i dont really know if we use the terminology of "Machine Pistol" since any country doesn't really use a MP (at least here in Argentina)
These videos have been really nice in helping to keep the context of weapons in mind. The LMG and especially the PDW were very interesting to think about as concepts. It's tempting to look at something like a UMP versus a Scorpion and say one is decidedly better than the other all while ignoring that one was made more to fit a niche role. It's great to look at the weapons and fun to see them shot, but I really like these videos that slow down a bit and take the time to think about them. Great work as always, Ian!
I know the vid is old and my comment is unlikely to ever be seen. But I love how you explain suuuuper basic things without being condescending and making me feel stupid XD
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot I'd think so? It is select fire and still technically automatic, because it fires more than one round with a single trigger pull. Plus it has an integrated foregrip and mountable folding stock.
I would say yes. Just like an M16 with a safe-semi-burst is still an "assault rifle" and that term requires a rifle caliber firearm capable of selection between semi and full auto.
At least you had it warm during winter. I remember that one crew that stored coke cans in their smoke dispensers, to keep them nice and cool during an exercise...
For those wondering about the germanic naming conventions (languages in this language group tend to use the same naming system): "machine gun" in english tends to become something that translates literally as "machine-rifle" (e.g. machinegeweer in Dutch) EDIT: note that this is somewhat broader and usually also includes assault rifles "sub-machine gun" tends to become something that translates literally as "machine-pistol" (e.g. maschinenpistole in German) because of this Because the two terms above are a bit broader than the english terms, PDW tends to get grouped as sub-machine guns (e.g. H&K MP7) To add to the confusion what in english is called a "machine pistol" tend NOT to be grouped as MPs in those systems, in my experience these are usually referred to simply as what translates literally to "automatic pistols", but I suspect there is more variety across languages here. I hope this has been helpful. ^_^
+TheCptnZ The R word means Reihe = row or series Reihenfeuerpistole means literally: pistol capable to fire in a row What is symbolical for automatic or better burst fire.
Welcome to the world of European language!?!. I lived in Germany for almost two years, and I worked at a auto parts store and I was doing inventory and I'm looking at a ignition coil, but!, I still can't even pronounce the name in German!!!.
I think Lugers with stock and snail magazines were heavily used by any Storm Troopers who couldn't get a hold of a MP18 during the Spring 1918 offensives. That'd made a frontline offensive weapon ,which is not what you'd expect from a PDW. Anyway terminology is just made out of words. I guess it depends on the role you put the weapon in, it'll fit the bill of a PDW or it won't ;).
The AKS-74U also intended to be a PDW for helicopter and tank / fighting vehicle crews (although this particular weapon usually associated with Specnaz). A very good American equivalent could be the Magpul PDR but it never went through the prototype stage except released as an airsoft gun, unfortunately. That would be so great to get a Magpul PDR for a video Ian! Or their folding SMG.
A very interesting take on the differences between the three. PDW seems to be a very nebulous term - I've seen compact 5.56 ARs billed as "PDWs", despite definitely being closer to a carbine than something like the PM63 or the Vz.61.
I've always appreciated but don't see mentioned often, is that it's nice how Ian always takes care to not flag the camera/viewer even when it looks like there's no-one on the other side of the camera, e.g. 4:13. None of the pointing firearms at the camera and pulling the trigger either, or putting a magazine into a firearm and pulling the trigger while indoors to prove it's clear. There's no hard right politics being jammed in either, just a responsible and intellectual look at firearms. Best firearms channel on the internet.
Hey, Ian. You should review the M79 or the China Lake grenade launchers. They’re featured in a lot of video games, and I’d definitely like to hear more about them.
I think that's just because those weapons are intended to fill the role as a PDW, for those rear echelon troops that might not engage the enemy directly but still needs a weapon.
It’s pretty easy to accidentally click ‘dislike’ on a small touch screen I’ve done it a couple of times, fortunately managed to correct it. Also some people are just dicks.
Ease up pard. My concern is that the folks at RUclips will decide these videos are too controversial to continue airing and take down the channel. They have already cut funding which will discourage new channels from starting.
It has been argued that the PDW category overlaps with but is not entirely contained within the category submachine gun. Some argue the P90 and MP7 are not sub guns as they don't shoot a pistol caliber. That's debatable as the FN Fiveseven and Ruger 57 exist and HK even worked on (but never finished) a handgun in the MP7's 4.6x30 cartridge. A different argument is that extremely short barreled ARs and AKs (and similar rifles) in their native calibers qualify as PDWs. I don't know how slow 5.56, 7.62x39, or 5.45 have to go to not penetrate soft body armor but all three lose velocity pretty quickly as you decrease barrel length, especially below 14 inches.
Easy way to think of a PDW is any gun (rifle or pistol caliber) that bridges the gap between a pistol and full length carbine (service weapon). Which makes PDW's a HUGE category but also keeps it simple on what the guns capabilities are/should be. pick the right tool for the right job.
Thank you for another informative video, Mr. McCollum. Nowadays a number of guns could fall into one or more categories in this video: a. AKS-74u and the PDW-R - fires the same cartridge as the frontline soldiers, but used by non-frontline soldiers. b. CBJ-MS - fires armour-piercing cartridge, but can be equipped with a bipod.
The former two would be both Carbines and PDWs. Well, I suppose the PDR isn't technically a Carbine, it's just inherently short... so Rifle PDW? The CBJ-MS is one hell of an odd gun (in a good way), but I'd say it does fall into the "mini-rifle caliber" PDW type that the P90 and MP7 belong to. I would argue that this type is the only type of PDW where the term can be used as a technical term rather than a role term.
- TheNuttyGunNut - there is nothing more trans weapon than a PDW. Is it a machine pistol? Is it a smg? Is it an assault rifle? Shits it’s a damn rainbow of a concept no wonder Europe likes them
Based on what I understand from this Vid, I would rather say: UZI: SMG Mini UZI: SMG (As it seems its meant to be used more as a weapon you can shoulder than fire like a handgun) Micro UZI: Machine Pistol (Although it can have a shoulder folding stock it can be used like a handgun ---> no handguard) All 3 could be considered as PDW depending on their purpose. For instance a if you issue a full-sized UZI to a tank crew, then it could be considered as a PDW based on its "broad definition", even though by modern standards a Mini-UZI or Micro-uzi would suit this designation better, based on their size.
I think the difference here is that there's two kinds of nomenclature being used, "submachine gun" tells you what a gun is (what features it has) while "personal defense weapon" tells you what a gun does (who it's issued to and what they're expected to do with it). Compare "light machine gun" vs "squad automatic weapon" for example.
Havoc wikipedia("always right on everything", i know) states it as a pdw which kind of makes sense, but it also uses a 5.56 nato round, and i'm not sure in what way that makes a difference
@Axel, yes, I know the PDR PDW is in 5.56mm, my question was rather where does that leave it ( and weapons like it ) in terms of definition to the PDW concept. @Drakseththephsyco no, I'm referring to the Magpul PDR PDW, a bullpup 5.56mm PDW marketed by Magpul. @P226nut whether or not they made one for production does not matter, the fact it existed in one form or another makes it relevant to the topic at hand, simply due to the fact it exists, and falls into the jurisdiction of the topic being discussed.
Unless you're submerged in the base of acronyms being used today, for anything, sometimes you don't have a clue. So a BIG THANKS Ian for clearing this up. I wish I would've caught this video a year ago.
In Russia its super easy - is it big fullauto gun? its а пулемет/pooleymet - lmg,hmg,gpmg, if its middle-sized fullauto gun - автомат/automat - assault rifle/battle rifle, if it small-sized fullauto gun - пистолет-пулемет/pistolet-pooleymet - submachine gun/pdw, and pistol is just pistol is it full auto or not. If its a hammer - its a hammer. Simple! But if we begin to think about the purpose and characteristics of that wheapon and put them in western terminology - well, its can become complicated. The siplest example is - AK74U - what da hell is that thing? Assault rifle? Its too short and ussless as that weapon. Submachine gun? Its fiers standart AK74 round. PDW? Maybe - its closest to this role, but still too big and overpowered. Oh yeah, and russians have some weird tradition - to call any smg with magazine in pistol handle(like mac10 or mp7) an "UZI", every freacking weapon. I think many of them realy thinking that mac10 is an UZI.
+Solid T it's a general thing, not only russians do it. Everything which looks like an Uzi is called an Uzi because that's the most popularly famous weapon that looks like that.
There’s a tendency everywhere to call MAC-10s, Tec-9s and various others the Uzi. Usually when people think of an Uzi they think of a Micro-Uzi. I remember thinking as a child that the MP-40 was a “German Uzi”.
People (Wikipedia and imfdb) say Personal Defence weapon are SMGs with special cartridge. Honey baadger, mp7, P90, Scar PDW, KAC PDW all have cartridge specially made for them. So vz .61 is not a PDW according to this
Refer to his comment about the M1 carbine being designed to fill the roll of a modern PDW. Personally, I think it's more about the intended use of the weapon than the actual design features or caliber. A pistol, sub gun or carbine could all fit that role. It's a modern term for something that's been around for a long time.
That'd be a pretty silly definition. It'd mean trying to make a gun that uses the ammunition from an existing PDW would, in spite of everything else, disqualify it from being a PDW - whereas any idiot who makes a submachine gun in a proprietary cartridge (like, say, an M3 Grease Gun in the 11.45 Obscure) would have made a PDW, despite the PDW being functionally indistinguishable from your regular SMG. (But then, functional indistinguishability from SMGs seems to be what PDWs are anyway...)
I recall a discussion about using pump action 12 gauge shotgun as a PDW. The thinking was it was light weight and a blast of buckshot with 8 32 caliber balls was similar to a burst of automatic fire. I'm not sure I agree it fits the standard today but I see the logic behind it.
Maybe it'd be interesting if you did a terminology like this on Rifles ? - Bolt action rifle (Kar98k) - Semi Auto rifle (M1 garand) - Carbine ? - Automatic rifle (BAR) - Battle rifle (FAL) - Assault rifle (AK47) - Sniper rifle Anyway thanks for all these great videos Ian :)
I *FIRMLY* believe that this grey area of classification is why the idiotic SBR laws exist. Lawyers and politicians don't like it when things can't fall into a legal bucket or illegal bucket, so they just "ban" everything. Which is why I always label SMG vs PDW as how you're using it (offensive & defensive, respectively), regardless of mechanical layout. *It's the user's intent, not the firearm's layout.*
If I remember correctly, the SBR and SBS laws exist because there was an attempt made to ban/restrict handguns (presumably this was a part of some other, larger, firearms bill) and the tax was added to limit people having super short rifles that were used as pistols. (ironic since this ended up as the primary factor for todays AR/AK/etc. pistols) The ban/restriction on handguns was removed from the bill, however the SBR and SBS aspect was left in. So there really isn't any reason for these laws to exist other than they ran out of Wite-Out. That said it has been years since I heard/researched this and don't remember where I got this info. I'll have to look this up again later and correct it if I was way off.
This kind of shit is why an AK with no stock and a snub barrel from the factory is considered a pistol under general american law. I can't cut the stock off my shotgun in the U.S. because of minimum length requirements, but I can buy an AK that was shorter than my shotgun from the factory and all I need is the pre-req. to pistol purchasing. 100% non contradictory system. Barrel length laws toooooootally make sense.
The SBR/SBS laws are part of the National Firearms Act of 1934, which was a result of the gang violence and bank robbery of the 1920s and early 1930s. You can thank politicians who over-reacted to Al Capone, Bonnie & Clyde, John Dillinger, Machinegun Kelly, George "Babyface" Nelson, etc. for those laws.
I have to hand it to you, Ian. You know more about firearms than I do, you have a better collection than I do, and you are more generous with your sharing that I am. Nice.
The Royal Ulster Constabulary used Sterling SMG's for many years for purely defensive purposes (manning sangars, vehicle checkpoints etc) we were only ever trained to use in single shot mode although they were full auto (and of course EVERYONE had a slip of the finger on the range and dumped a mag or two on full auto) I guess what we really needed was a PDW but the government had warehouses full of Sterlings...
The fact that you used PM-63 as a good example of a PDW just proves that it's not really a firearm type but rather a description of "intended purpose" since PM stands for Machine Pistol in Polish. And PM is a broad term encompassing pretty much anything that fires pistol cartridge in full auto since the term does not discriminate between Machine Pistol and Submachine gun like English language does. In fact in Polish terminology there is no native term for a PDW. In Polish literature you'll find the english abbreviation - PDW. Great video as usual, thanks.
Ian, I was literally just pulling up this episode this morning when I met you. I am a fan of the show! O start every morning by looking for the notification and watch the episode as soon as possible.
I know these might come up in a handgun video but PCCs pistol calibre carbines. A weapon any adult can pick up and after a mag or two on the range can be considered proficient with. And I love the idea of a PDW as a weapon the Everyman can have that gives said man the firepower of a SMG.
I always leave smarter than I came when watching your videos Thanks again for your hard work and investigation into the subject matter in which you school us about
I enjoy your terminological videos even though I don't really learn anything new from them. I think it's because it verifies my understanding, much like looking up the formal definition of words you've picked up from context when reading. While you might have been reasonably confident, it's good to get confirmation about any nuances.
The MP5K is probably the clearest example of a holsterable SMG. It's tiny, has a stock, can easily be used, and has enough firepower in one mag to help get your ass out of a really rough situation and to safety where better equipment can be acquired to increase your combat capabilities. It gives you enough time to fire at anyone in your way and eliminate a threat so you can get to the armory and get the rifles so you can be on even terms equipment-wise with your enemies. But I would also argue that it makes sense as being classified as a PDW. It's very much out of the way with the stock folded.
In german, everything that is bigger than pistol formate and fires pistol cartridges, is a "Maschinenpistole" (mp) and every automatic pistol is called just that.
The 5.7 mm round is more effective in wounding than 9 mm FMJ as it is designed to tumble. It has some 25 cm penetration when 9 mm penetrates about 85 cm.
I think the kriss vector SMG falls perfectly in this. I may be wrong about this but I think the pdw definition for today is something that is concealable.
Names of these weapon categories are different on many languages because when Germans made MP18, which wasn't the first SMG (that was Villar Pelosi) but it was first SMG that really was supposed to be what we know as SMG, they decided to call it "Machine Pistol", because well, it fires pistol cartridge, it's fully automatic, so it's machine pistol. And many European countries followed this logic. But in USA everything is different, inches instead of metres, Fahrenheit instead of Celcius, etc., so when Tommygun was invented it creator called it "sub-machine gun". And this time Britian did not created second name for same thing in English, because they thought this kind of weapon is unnecesary and didn't had own SMG until WWII when they realised that they need something against German MP40s. In my country, Poland, every fully automatic weapon firing pistol cartridge is called "pistolet maszynowy", "machine pistol", and weapons like Glock 18, fully automatic weapons looking like normal pistols, can be called "pistolet automatyczny", "automatic pistol". Machine guns, I mean like light machine gun, are for the other hand named "karabiny maszynowe", "machine rifles". So probalby Polish (and not only Polish) gamers who don't know English and/or English weapon terminology must be curious why in GTA V machine guns and SMGs are in the same weapon slot.
Since Ian mentions the thing about the German word "Maschinenpistole" meaning SMG in the beginning: German for "machine pistol" is "Reihenfeuerpistole" (literally: serial or chain fire pistol).
I can't believe you made a whole video about SMGs without mentioning the Thompson - the gun that gave us the term "submachine gun" (the type was called something else before that point). That's like discussing assault rifles without the StG 44!
For the German people interested (and anyone else): In Germany, a Submachinegun would be, as mentioned, a "Maschinenpistole", and a Machine Pistol is called "Reihenfeuerpistole"
Really excellent videos - great to see a channel with quality info that cares about accuracy and where the information is presented in a clear and concise manner. Great job man. :-)
A given submachine gun's position on the sliding pdw scale is directly proportional to how practical it is to holster said weapon. Support, refute, qualify.
The whole Vz.61 thingy is a tad more complicated. Mainly since Czech calls it "samopal" meaning sub-machine gun. However, at the time, the Vz.58 was also called "samopal", since the word is derived from the fact that it fires on its own (samo - self/itself, pal - fire), thus the Vz.58 was "těžký samopal" (a heavy SMG). Although the other was in military terms of today replaced, generally, by "útočná puška" (direct translation of Assault Rifle). The term machine pistol technically exists in Czech, you can say "automatická pistole", however it would refer more to stuff like C-96 Schnellfeuer or Stechkin. So I were fairly suprised to hear Ian give that name to the Škorpion earlier this year. One could also argue that it even switches categories as you change between the holsterable 10 round and unholsterable 20 round mags. EDIT: Actually, where does the new Škorpion iteration, the "CZ SCORPION EVO3" fall? SMG? MP?
From my experience intended use defines a weapon or vehicle better then set of arbitrary physical characteristics. So, M1 carbine, especially M2 version with the folding stock and full auto capability, is a PDW, and very good one at that.
Ian: *attaches the browning hi power stock to the c96*
The ATF: *shoots his dog*
exactly my thoughts
And burn down his house with the FBI.... Wait a minute....
Everyone knows the NFA has a special Ian Exemption
The Inglis Hi-Powers are exempt and came with stocks.
Hella funny!. I just don't know what was going through his head???.
Mr. Ian, you will in the future explain us diffrences betwen "Designated marksman rifle, Semi auto rifles, sniper rifles, Anti-Materiel rifles" etc. ?
I think,no,since they are self explanatory
Vladimir Mihnev
Except for antimaterial you're wrong. The definition lies in the way the rifle is applied, i.e. a DMR can very well be a bolt action rifle if issued on squad level to a common soldier, although the norm is to accurize the rifle already in use and equip it with magnifying optics. A sniper rifle is a rifle used by a sniper for sniping, and that SVD Dragunov you mentioned can very well fall under that category, out of necessity it would generally not be used as such though.
DMR: A standard infantry rifle that has been modified (accurized) to have a longer effective range than the standard rifle.
Semi auto rifles: A rifle that automatically prepares the next round for firing, but does not fire it until the trigger is pulled again.
Sniper rifle: A rifle with a longer effective range than the DMR. Usually a completely different rifle than the standard infantry rifle and fires a full power rifle cartridge.
Anti-Materiel rifle: A rifle used for breaking through things like soft cover and lightly armored vehicles that the standard infantry rifle or sniper rifle cannot punch through.
SMG, PDW, and Machine Pistol are also very self explanatory, these videos are often for those who know little about these concepts, so differentiating between DMR's and other semi-auto rifles isn't too bad of an idea when considering those less knowledgeable.
Vladimir Mihnev I always bring my anti-malarial rifles with me when I go into the jungle. Can't risk getting any disease
As a sci-fi nerd, I know that, in addition to lightly armored soviet hordes, the P-90 also works against lightly armored, genetically modified humans with staff-like energy weapons. :)
Jari Heiska It's also quite good against aliens with life sucking hands.
And sentient Lego bugs.
The P90, for all your alien exterminating needs.
And it's hell on genetically modified gorillas as found on remote tropical atolls.
The P90, perfect for genetically modified brutes with chainsaws for hands!!
This is by far my favourite gun channel. I like the calm, rational, science- and history-oriented manner.
Such a breath of fresh air in this ocean of trash channels.
I've never noticed before, but that MAS 38 is really kind of a cute little SMG.
Kinda odd looking one due to it's tilted receiver, I personally think it is ugly although it is brilliant design wise. But hey like humans: the best looking ones aren't always the most clever... Such a shame it is not chambered in 9x19.
Well It's French after all. Whens the last time they made anything scary.
"Paint me like one of your French guns"
It kinda looks like a toy gun.
Sedan57Chevy Le petite fleur.
time staps.
SMG : 0:48
MP : 2:01
PDW : 4:21
Thank you
Replying to bump this comment up.
Bless.
A friends dad was issued a Skorpion in the Czech military and loved it.
I've got a PPS-43, (and while it's twice as long as the VZ.61) those little sub-guns of the east are quite the enjoyable pieces!
I agree, I love the skorpion. I want one in .25acp.
Good thing you have mentioned at the start that this terminology can only be applied to English. As in my country, there's no difference between SMG and Machine pistol nor between assault rifle and battle rifle.
French? (I am)
Also in german I think as the Austrian FAL was designated Sturmgewehr (assault rifle) 58.
I feel so lucky to speak a language with all the words - new words even! No "machine pistols", "machine guns", "machine rifles" or "pistol machine guns". Samopal (SMG) "self-fire", kulomet (MG) "bullet thrower". Easy.
Czech lacks just the term for "receiver", I think. Other than that, it has everything.
Here in South America have the same thing. A Battle Rifle and an Assault Rifle for us are the same thing, and anything that shoots Pistol ammo in full auto here is an SMG or a "sub-fusil". But i dont really know if we use the terminology of "Machine Pistol" since any country doesn't really use a MP (at least here in Argentina)
Receiver is called "Pouzdro závěru" in Czech, upper receiver would be called "Víko pouzdra závěru"...
Just wanted to say I really like these shorts. They are very informative, yet easy to understand!
bot
These videos have been really nice in helping to keep the context of weapons in mind. The LMG and especially the PDW were very interesting to think about as concepts. It's tempting to look at something like a UMP versus a Scorpion and say one is decidedly better than the other all while ignoring that one was made more to fit a niche role. It's great to look at the weapons and fun to see them shot, but I really like these videos that slow down a bit and take the time to think about them. Great work as always, Ian!
about the UZI's. to add to the confusion. I've spoken to a commander of a Dutch tank crew and he said that they are using the UZI as a PDW.
It defends personnel who are stationed inside armored vehicles, sounds about right to me.
Don't those crews use one of the "mini" Uzi variants?
The Hungarians used the AMD 65, which is a short barreled AK variant, as a PDW for tank crews, to cloud the waters even more.
Technically, yes, but they were used as a PDW by tank crews. This is why I see PDW as more of a role than a weapon class.
0:33 Ian loves French guns so much that he even pronounces German words with a French accent!
Nah, he just ate frog legs right before filming this one.
RAF eh. Didn’t think they where still around.
Machine Pesto 🇮🇹
The classic problem of trying to fit a continuum into convenient boxes. But a valiant effort. :-)
I know the vid is old and my comment is unlikely to ever be seen.
But I love how you explain suuuuper basic things without being condescending and making me feel stupid XD
Guns? My PDW is a Scottish Claymore.
Mosin Nagant bayonet on the end of a broomstick for me.
SuicideNeil Mine is whatever i find in the street
Mine is a spear with one, no! Two cruciform bayonets!
Me Mallet
Rolling pin with some staples in it
What about a Beretta 93R? Would it still be considered a machine pistol even though it can only do 3 round bursts?
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot I was actually just about to comment the same thing haha
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot I'd think so? It is select fire and still technically automatic, because it fires more than one round with a single trigger pull. Plus it has an integrated foregrip and mountable folding stock.
Well everyone call 93r an MP.
It's for the purpose of killing, it doesn't matter what you use as long as the other guy's dead and you are standing over him.
I would say yes. Just like an M16 with a safe-semi-burst is still an "assault rifle" and that term requires a rifle caliber firearm capable of selection between semi and full auto.
This is the greatest terminology of all time.
Impressive, I know that 2 minutes after a 13 minute video was posted.....
...maybe ever!
This is the greatest terminology of All Time
the fulda gap brings back memories. i was a tanker in germany in 85'.
M60 or M-1?
At least you had it warm during winter. I remember that one crew that stored coke cans in their smoke dispensers, to keep them nice and cool during an exercise...
Did you really still use the M3 submachine gun in 1985?
Required for every military science fiction writer.
Thanks Ian. Really.
For those wondering about the germanic naming conventions (languages in this language group tend to use the same naming system):
"machine gun" in english tends to become something that translates literally as "machine-rifle" (e.g. machinegeweer in Dutch)
EDIT: note that this is somewhat broader and usually also includes assault rifles
"sub-machine gun" tends to become something that translates literally as "machine-pistol" (e.g. maschinenpistole in German)
because of this
Because the two terms above are a bit broader than the english terms, PDW tends to get grouped as sub-machine guns (e.g. H&K MP7)
To add to the confusion what in english is called a "machine pistol" tend NOT to be grouped as MPs in those systems, in my experience these are usually referred to simply as what translates literally to "automatic pistols", but I suspect there is more variety across languages here.
I hope this has been helpful. ^_^
In German machine pistol is Reihenfeuerpistole.
Tilobida what do those words literally translate to? What does that R word mean?
It roughly translates to select fire.
+TheCptnZ
The R word means Reihe = row or series
Reihenfeuerpistole means literally: pistol capable to fire in a row
What is symbolical for automatic or better burst fire.
Welcome to the world of European language!?!. I lived in Germany for almost two years, and I worked at a auto parts store and I was doing inventory and I'm looking at a ignition coil, but!, I still can't even pronounce the name in German!!!.
In WW1, in my opinion the artillery 08 with stock and drum was kinda a pdw. Whats your opinion on that Ian?
Hmmm that's a good one. But it's semi auto only right? Tho it does fill that role.
The M1 was semi-auto only as well. Only later versions were select-fire. Like Ian said, not by the modern definition, but it fits the role.
Well the drum made it into a sort of proto submachinegun. But with the original small mag it was adopted to fill the pdw niche.
I think Lugers with stock and snail magazines were heavily used by any Storm Troopers who couldn't get a hold of a MP18 during the Spring 1918 offensives. That'd made a frontline offensive weapon ,which is not what you'd expect from a PDW.
Anyway terminology is just made out of words. I guess it depends on the role you put the weapon in, it'll fit the bill of a PDW or it won't ;).
ramjb only 5000 MP18s were used in the spring offensive
The AKS-74U also intended to be a PDW for helicopter and tank / fighting vehicle crews (although this particular weapon usually associated with Specnaz). A very good American equivalent could be the Magpul PDR but it never went through the prototype stage except released as an airsoft gun, unfortunately. That would be so great to get a Magpul PDR for a video Ian! Or their folding SMG.
I just put this channel on in the background, video after video, i never get sick of hearing it.
I love those “educational type” videos. Please do more of them!
The PM-63 is a very nice looking firearm.
Look it'sn't about nice looking firearm but the effectiveness after all you don't want a showpiece
Look it'sn't about nice looking firearm but the effectiveness after all you don't want a showpiece
YES!!! you got your new smg out of NFA jail !!!!! when is the shooting video ?
btw I love your channel... I watch every morning :)
The attempted shooting video is coming in a few days.
A very interesting take on the differences between the three. PDW seems to be a very nebulous term - I've seen compact 5.56 ARs billed as "PDWs", despite definitely being closer to a carbine than something like the PM63 or the Vz.61.
I've always appreciated but don't see mentioned often, is that it's nice how Ian always takes care to not flag the camera/viewer even when it looks like there's no-one on the other side of the camera, e.g. 4:13. None of the pointing firearms at the camera and pulling the trigger either, or putting a magazine into a firearm and pulling the trigger while indoors to prove it's clear. There's no hard right politics being jammed in either, just a responsible and intellectual look at firearms.
Best firearms channel on the internet.
Hey, Ian. You should review the M79 or the China Lake grenade launchers. They’re featured in a lot of video games, and I’d definitely like to hear more about them.
I’ve heard a lot of people putting very short barreled M4s in the PDW category
Is that possibly just a marketing gimmick?
But those are mostly weapons for military forces, I'd hope that the people in charge of procurement would be a bit smarter than that.
I think that's just because those weapons are intended to fill the role as a PDW, for those rear echelon troops that might not engage the enemy directly but still needs a weapon.
Wrong, it’s still a carbine because of its 5.56 caliber
Because PDW is a role term, you can do that. They're Carbines and also PDWs, like the AKS-74u.
Nice definition of PDW vs SMG, I've often wanted a concise line, and here it is! 👍👍👍
Thank you for these two videos, they very clearly presented the differences between the categories. And the frustration of nailing down PDWs.
Ooo a Forgotten Weapons hoody, time to purchase that me thinks...
Still can't figure out how Ian collects so many dislikes on educational videos. Do people not want to learn, or is it something else?
Joefoam7 probably because they aren't senseless destruction and big booms.
Also, for videos like this, people disagree on the terminology.
There're 3,000 likes and 20 dislikes. Stop being overly dramatic.
It’s pretty easy to accidentally click ‘dislike’ on a small touch screen
I’ve done it a couple of times, fortunately managed to correct it. Also some people are just dicks.
Ease up pard. My concern is that the folks at RUclips will decide these videos are too controversial to continue airing and take down the channel. They have already cut funding which will discourage new channels from starting.
It has been argued that the PDW category overlaps with but is not entirely contained within the category submachine gun. Some argue the P90 and MP7 are not sub guns as they don't shoot a pistol caliber. That's debatable as the FN Fiveseven and Ruger 57 exist and HK even worked on (but never finished) a handgun in the MP7's 4.6x30 cartridge. A different argument is that extremely short barreled ARs and AKs (and similar rifles) in their native calibers qualify as PDWs. I don't know how slow 5.56, 7.62x39, or 5.45 have to go to not penetrate soft body armor but all three lose velocity pretty quickly as you decrease barrel length, especially below 14 inches.
Easy way to think of a PDW is any gun (rifle or pistol caliber) that bridges the gap between a pistol and full length carbine (service weapon). Which makes PDW's a HUGE category but also keeps it simple on what the guns capabilities are/should be. pick the right tool for the right job.
5:29 are those Polish tank crews with FB PM-63 ?
Yup
That's a nice looking sweatshirt but it bugs me that the hood strings are slightly ajar.
everything i always wanted to know about smg,mps but was afraid to ask. thx. great video as usual.
Thank you for another informative video, Mr. McCollum.
Nowadays a number of guns could fall into one or more categories in this video:
a. AKS-74u and the PDW-R - fires the same cartridge as the frontline soldiers, but used by non-frontline soldiers.
b. CBJ-MS - fires armour-piercing cartridge, but can be equipped with a bipod.
The former two would be both Carbines and PDWs. Well, I suppose the PDR isn't technically a Carbine, it's just inherently short... so Rifle PDW?
The CBJ-MS is one hell of an odd gun (in a good way), but I'd say it does fall into the "mini-rifle caliber" PDW type that the P90 and MP7 belong to. I would argue that this type is the only type of PDW where the term can be used as a technical term rather than a role term.
Just because I was born as a submachine gun doesn't mean I can't identify as a PDW! Trans weapons rights!
Fair point. I'll support your right to identify as a GPMG or HMG even lol
Also, MP5K with a bigger muzzle device and a folding stock is branded as MP5K PDW.
I support self-perceived genre weapons rights.
- TheNuttyGunNut - there is nothing more trans weapon than a PDW. Is it a machine pistol? Is it a smg? Is it an assault rifle? Shits it’s a damn rainbow of a concept no wonder Europe likes them
Alex Henry Brendan burns might mean PDW nor PWD but its the weapons right to identify as he/she wants to lol
Mini uzis/micros?
Normal Uzi = SMG
Mini Uzi = PDW
Micro Uzi = Machine Pistol
:^)
Based on what I understand from this Vid, I would rather say:
UZI: SMG
Mini UZI: SMG (As it seems its meant to be used more as a weapon you can shoulder than fire like a handgun)
Micro UZI: Machine Pistol (Although it can have a shoulder folding stock it can be used like a handgun ---> no handguard)
All 3 could be considered as PDW depending on their purpose. For instance a if you issue a full-sized UZI to a tank crew, then it could be considered as a PDW based on its "broad definition", even though by modern standards a Mini-UZI or Micro-uzi would suit this designation better, based on their size.
Those are just deadly toys,no army practacality
Suraj Grewal isreals use them pretty sure have some practicallity.
Suraj Grewal Maybe not for military, but there's always police forces in need.
I think the difference here is that there's two kinds of nomenclature being used, "submachine gun" tells you what a gun is (what features it has) while "personal defense weapon" tells you what a gun does (who it's issued to and what they're expected to do with it). Compare "light machine gun" vs "squad automatic weapon" for example.
I love how Ian totally bashes the mp5k and up talks the cz scorpion. Ian loves his CZ 😂. GREAT VIDEO! KEEP UP THE WORK!
Question, where does that leave the Magpul PDW?
Havoc wikipedia("always right on everything", i know) states it as a pdw which kind of makes sense, but it also uses a 5.56 nato round, and i'm not sure in what way that makes a difference
i believe he is refering to this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magpul_FMG-9
Considering they never made one for production it doesn’t matter
@Axel, yes, I know the PDR PDW is in 5.56mm, my question was rather where does that leave it ( and weapons like it ) in terms of definition to the PDW concept.
@Drakseththephsyco no, I'm referring to the Magpul PDR PDW, a bullpup 5.56mm PDW marketed by Magpul.
@P226nut whether or not they made one for production does not matter, the fact it existed in one form or another makes it relevant to the topic at hand, simply due to the fact it exists, and falls into the jurisdiction of the topic being discussed.
Ah I didnt know about that one
What about belt-fed pistol-caliber guns :v
Unless you're submerged in the base of acronyms being used today, for anything, sometimes you don't have a clue. So a BIG THANKS Ian for clearing this up. I wish I would've caught this video a year ago.
Love the break down of terminology, gotta learn something new every day and Ian never seems to disappoint in that regard.
In Russia its super easy - is it big fullauto gun? its а пулемет/pooleymet - lmg,hmg,gpmg, if its middle-sized fullauto gun - автомат/automat - assault rifle/battle rifle, if it small-sized fullauto gun - пистолет-пулемет/pistolet-pooleymet - submachine gun/pdw, and pistol is just pistol is it full auto or not. If its a hammer - its a hammer. Simple!
But if we begin to think about the purpose and characteristics of that wheapon and put them in western terminology - well, its can become complicated. The siplest example is - AK74U - what da hell is that thing? Assault rifle? Its too short and ussless as that weapon. Submachine gun? Its fiers standart AK74 round. PDW? Maybe - its closest to this role, but still too big and overpowered.
Oh yeah, and russians have some weird tradition - to call any smg with magazine in pistol handle(like mac10 or mp7) an "UZI", every freacking weapon. I think many of them realy thinking that mac10 is an UZI.
+Solid T
it's a general thing, not only russians do it. Everything which looks like an Uzi is called an Uzi because that's the most popularly famous weapon that looks like that.
There’s a tendency everywhere to call MAC-10s, Tec-9s and various others the Uzi. Usually when people think of an Uzi they think of a Micro-Uzi. I remember thinking as a child that the MP-40 was a “German Uzi”.
People (Wikipedia and imfdb) say Personal Defence weapon are SMGs with special cartridge. Honey baadger, mp7, P90, Scar PDW, KAC PDW all have cartridge specially made for them. So vz .61 is not a PDW according to this
I disagree with those people.
Forgotten Weapons 😂😂 awesome!
Refer to his comment about the M1 carbine being designed to fill the roll of a modern PDW. Personally, I think it's more about the intended use of the weapon than the actual design features or caliber. A pistol, sub gun or carbine could all fit that role. It's a modern term for something that's been around for a long time.
That'd be a pretty silly definition. It'd mean trying to make a gun that uses the ammunition from an existing PDW would, in spite of everything else, disqualify it from being a PDW - whereas any idiot who makes a submachine gun in a proprietary cartridge (like, say, an M3 Grease Gun in the 11.45 Obscure) would have made a PDW, despite the PDW being functionally indistinguishable from your regular SMG. (But then, functional indistinguishability from SMGs seems to be what PDWs are anyway...)
I recall a discussion about using pump action 12 gauge shotgun as a PDW. The thinking was it was light weight and a blast of buckshot with 8 32 caliber balls was similar to a burst of automatic fire. I'm not sure I agree it fits the standard today but I see the logic behind it.
Maybe it'd be interesting if you did a terminology like this on Rifles ?
- Bolt action rifle (Kar98k)
- Semi Auto rifle (M1 garand)
- Carbine ?
- Automatic rifle (BAR)
- Battle rifle (FAL)
- Assault rifle (AK47)
- Sniper rifle
Anyway thanks for all these great videos Ian :)
2023: 8:20 not so accurate nowadays.
I *FIRMLY* believe that this grey area of classification is why the idiotic SBR laws exist. Lawyers and politicians don't like it when things can't fall into a legal bucket or illegal bucket, so they just "ban" everything. Which is why I always label SMG vs PDW as how you're using it (offensive & defensive, respectively), regardless of mechanical layout. *It's the user's intent, not the firearm's layout.*
If I remember correctly, the SBR and SBS laws exist because there was an attempt made to ban/restrict handguns (presumably this was a part of some other, larger, firearms bill) and the tax was added to limit people having super short rifles that were used as pistols. (ironic since this ended up as the primary factor for todays AR/AK/etc. pistols) The ban/restriction on handguns was removed from the bill, however the SBR and SBS aspect was left in. So there really isn't any reason for these laws to exist other than they ran out of Wite-Out. That said it has been years since I heard/researched this and don't remember where I got this info. I'll have to look this up again later and correct it if I was way off.
This kind of shit is why an AK with no stock and a snub barrel from the factory is considered a pistol under general american law. I can't cut the stock off my shotgun in the U.S. because of minimum length requirements, but I can buy an AK that was shorter than my shotgun from the factory and all I need is the pre-req. to pistol purchasing.
100% non contradictory system. Barrel length laws toooooootally make sense.
The SBR/SBS laws are part of the National Firearms Act of 1934, which was a result of the gang violence and bank robbery of the 1920s and early 1930s. You can thank politicians who over-reacted to Al Capone, Bonnie & Clyde, John Dillinger, Machinegun Kelly, George "Babyface" Nelson, etc. for those laws.
I have to hand it to you, Ian. You know more about firearms than I do, you have a better collection than I do, and you are more generous with your sharing that I am. Nice.
The Royal Ulster Constabulary used Sterling SMG's for many years for purely defensive purposes (manning sangars, vehicle checkpoints etc) we were only ever trained to use in single shot mode although they were full auto (and of course EVERYONE had a slip of the finger on the range and dumped a mag or two on full auto) I guess what we really needed was a PDW but the government had warehouses full of Sterlings...
Gun Jesus knows de wey.
It's pistol-eh not pistoel
The fact that you used PM-63 as a good example of a PDW just proves that it's not really a firearm type but rather a description of "intended purpose" since PM stands for Machine Pistol in Polish.
And PM is a broad term encompassing pretty much anything that fires pistol cartridge in full auto since the term does not discriminate between Machine Pistol and Submachine gun like English language does. In fact in Polish terminology there is no native term for a PDW. In Polish literature you'll find the english abbreviation - PDW. Great video as usual, thanks.
I did learn something Ian, thank you! Really loving these videos, they really help and are very informative.
Thanks for the video. I love these terminology videos :) I hope there's more in the future.
Ian, I was literally just pulling up this episode this morning when I met you. I am a fan of the show! O start every morning by looking for the notification and watch the episode as soon as possible.
Glad you enjoy it! Always fun to meet fans :)
I know these might come up in a handgun video but PCCs pistol calibre carbines. A weapon any adult can pick up and after a mag or two on the range can be considered proficient with. And I love the idea of a PDW as a weapon the Everyman can have that gives said man the firepower of a SMG.
I've been waiting for this.
Thanks Ian!
The MAC 10 and 11 were intended as PDW type arms for vehicle crew . Even had a prototype holster.
Learn something on each and every episode! Thank you, hope to see lots more!
I always leave smarter than I came when watching your videos Thanks again for your hard work and investigation into the subject matter in which you school us about
I enjoy your terminological videos even though I don't really learn anything new from them. I think it's because it verifies my understanding, much like looking up the formal definition of words you've picked up from context when reading. While you might have been reasonably confident, it's good to get confirmation about any nuances.
These videos are amazing!!!! More please!
The MP5K is probably the clearest example of a holsterable SMG. It's tiny, has a stock, can easily be used, and has enough firepower in one mag to help get your ass out of a really rough situation and to safety where better equipment can be acquired to increase your combat capabilities. It gives you enough time to fire at anyone in your way and eliminate a threat so you can get to the armory and get the rifles so you can be on even terms equipment-wise with your enemies. But I would also argue that it makes sense as being classified as a PDW. It's very much out of the way with the stock folded.
Thanks for the Short Explaination of the Maschinenpistole(SMG) and Automatic Pistole difference in German
The ambiguity come from this I think: SMG and MP are techincal terms, they describe how the weapon is designed, while a PWD describes a combat role.
these technical videos are fantastic
In german, everything that is bigger than pistol formate and fires pistol cartridges, is a "Maschinenpistole" (mp) and every automatic pistol is called just that.
Any person: *Knows alot about guns*
Their classmates:
Fantastic! The P90 will always hold a warm spot in my little grinch heart because of Golden Eye.
The 5.7 mm round is more effective in wounding than 9 mm FMJ as it is designed to tumble. It has some 25 cm penetration when 9 mm penetrates about 85 cm.
I think the kriss vector SMG falls perfectly in this. I may be wrong about this but I think the pdw definition for today is something that is concealable.
Names of these weapon categories are different on many languages because when Germans made MP18, which wasn't the first SMG (that was Villar Pelosi) but it was first SMG that really was supposed to be what we know as SMG, they decided to call it "Machine Pistol", because well, it fires pistol cartridge, it's fully automatic, so it's machine pistol. And many European countries followed this logic. But in USA everything is different, inches instead of metres, Fahrenheit instead of Celcius, etc., so when Tommygun was invented it creator called it "sub-machine gun". And this time Britian did not created second name for same thing in English, because they thought this kind of weapon is unnecesary and didn't had own SMG until WWII when they realised that they need something against German MP40s. In my country, Poland, every fully automatic weapon firing pistol cartridge is called "pistolet maszynowy", "machine pistol", and weapons like Glock 18, fully automatic weapons looking like normal pistols, can be called "pistolet automatyczny", "automatic pistol". Machine guns, I mean like light machine gun, are for the other hand named "karabiny maszynowe", "machine rifles". So probalby Polish (and not only Polish) gamers who don't know English and/or English weapon terminology must be curious why in GTA V machine guns and SMGs are in the same weapon slot.
Since Ian mentions the thing about the German word "Maschinenpistole" meaning SMG in the beginning: German for "machine pistol" is "Reihenfeuerpistole" (literally: serial or chain fire pistol).
This is one of the most high-quality channels on RUclips
I'm really loving all your terminology/basic history/background videos. More please!
My personal favorite flavor of firearms! I LOVE PDWs and their intended role as protection for non-combat crews ♥
I would think the MP7 also fits the 'holstered SMG' role, as well. Maybe not a Pistol holster on the big, but a minimal one on the thigh.
I can't believe you made a whole video about SMGs without mentioning the Thompson - the gun that gave us the term "submachine gun" (the type was called something else before that point). That's like discussing assault rifles without the StG 44!
For the German people interested (and anyone else): In Germany, a Submachinegun would be, as mentioned, a "Maschinenpistole", and a Machine Pistol is called "Reihenfeuerpistole"
The Ingram in .380 seems to fit the definition of PDW. That was a scary gun to shoot!
Yes, I would agree...one both counts. :)
Greetings from Germany, you explained the whole MP/SMG-Part very good :D
Keep up the good work, I love your Videos.
Can't wait for the next part: Machine Gun Terminology Part 2.5: SMG, PDW, BBW, & Machine Pistol
Great video guys. Plz dive into subjects like this more often.
Really excellent videos - great to see a channel with quality info that cares about accuracy and where the information is presented in a clear and concise manner. Great job man. :-)
PM-63 has a neat feature that it chambers a bullet automatically when You jump off Your vehicle (sometimes it even fires it for You too!)
I love how you say what I'm thinking.
A given submachine gun's position on the sliding pdw scale is directly proportional to how practical it is to holster said weapon. Support, refute, qualify.
The whole Vz.61 thingy is a tad more complicated. Mainly since Czech calls it "samopal" meaning sub-machine gun. However, at the time, the Vz.58 was also called "samopal", since the word is derived from the fact that it fires on its own (samo - self/itself, pal - fire), thus the Vz.58 was "těžký samopal" (a heavy SMG). Although the other was in military terms of today replaced, generally, by "útočná puška" (direct translation of Assault Rifle).
The term machine pistol technically exists in Czech, you can say "automatická pistole", however it would refer more to stuff like C-96 Schnellfeuer or Stechkin. So I were fairly suprised to hear Ian give that name to the Škorpion earlier this year. One could also argue that it even switches categories as you change between the holsterable 10 round and unholsterable 20 round mags.
EDIT: Actually, where does the new Škorpion iteration, the "CZ SCORPION EVO3" fall? SMG? MP?
Man the French really has a way of making really elegant looking guns
From my experience intended use defines a weapon or vehicle better then set of arbitrary physical characteristics. So, M1 carbine, especially M2 version with the folding stock and full auto capability, is a PDW, and very good one at that.
cant wait till he gets his hands on some gauss rifles
That MAS 38 is fucking awesome.
Yes you finally got your MAS 38, looking forward to that live fire video.