Let's not forget that there's also the ones that play outside of the main arcs. Such as Reedfeather and Fallowtail, Featherstorm and Hal, hell even the not-so important ones like Yarrowleaf and Nettle (which happens in-arc but isn't spoken about often) and Beechfur and Gorsetail. Using those approximations, the approximate 2 relationships per arc boosts to around 2.6, which isn't much of a difference but it's something to note. They were interesting in the first and second series but over time the Erins began to overdo it. Especially with protagonists falling in love with cats outside of the Clan.
I honest to god didn’t know about all of those except for Gorsetail and Beechfur LOL. Wow oh my God I can’t BELIEVE it’s that bad. I even left out Mapleshade and Appledusk in the calculation in the video 😭
@@Hawkkz Yeah, it's definitely bad. I love the concept, but Erins definitely overdid it. With the new code in TBC, that should hopefully slow it down. Honestly, we never know for sure though.
@@GweenOfTea It's possible! However, I don't think it's canon so that's why I didn't include it. (If it is canon, it's retconned.) Either way, only worsens the situation.
It also annoys me how these cats are willing to leave their mom,dad, siblings and friends for a cat they met a week ago or in greystripes case even a day ago.
graystripe’s reason was pretty understandable though, he switched impulsively because of the grief of losing his mate and how he was about to lose his kits too
Agreed, I espescially didnt like the Bristle X Root ship *Spoilers for Lights In The Mist* Littearly when Bristle Dies Root Litearlly said To his clans face + all the other clans "Yea I was about to ditch all of you for Bristle and her clan...But oh well shes dead Now im gonna stay with all of you, but if she were alive I totally would have left all of you :P"
I really wish they'd learn to stop using it as a problem and just properly explore more of their romances. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them *not* to.
I thought the concept was cool at first like with Graystripe’s romance with Silverstream was nice, I actually liked it! but by the time Bristle x root rolled around it had become so repetitive and I was getting kinda sick of it. Moral is it was interesting at first and now it is used out and dried up. And I swear to StarClan that if there is ANOTHER forbidden romance plot in the ASC arc I will literally lose what’s left of my sanity and my arm will force me to throw the book out the window. Please Erin’s stop it already! Although I will give it an exception if it is Tom x Tom or she-cat x She-cat otherwise please no more!
I agree! I think the strives they're making in A Starless Clan will hopefully stop much of the attention that it gets, but I honestly don't know what I'd do if they genuinely created another one again LOL
@@Hawkkz it seems they have no intentions of stopping because ALREADY they have two (although not forbidden because of the new changes to the code) cross clan romances Shellfur x Fernstripe and Spireclaw x Fringewhisker and it looks already that they are trying to set up Sunbeam and Nightheart which I can already tell will be a nightmare
@@Sheedystar_the_cat Not gonna lie im about as far as the sight and I have no clue who any of these cats even are but I can tell with a name like Sunbeam and Nighthawk there gonna be doomed lol
I feel the good thing that comes from the forbidden relationships is genetic variation,considering that most cats are related in their clans,but even then...that's a weird reason for having forbidden romance.
It’s funny because sometimes the cats in the forbidden relationships are STILL RELATED (although distantly). For example, Tigerheart and Dovewing are related as Goldenflower is Tigerheart’s grandmother, her brother is Lionheart, who was revealed to be the father of Frostfur’s litter, which included Brightheart, Dovewing’s grandmother. So are Heathertail and Lionblaze through Ashfoot and Onestar being siblings, with Ashfoot being Crowfeather’s mom and Onestar apparently being Heathertail’s dad (also meaning that Heathertail and Breezepelt are related too).
Gorsetail and Beechfur are often forgotten, but they literally had kids like around the oots arc. Crookedstars mate Willowbreeze is also halfclan. Now with the fact that thr warrior code is changed there's no longer forbidden romance at least
Is that the one from Crookedstar’s Promise?? I had it on the script, but I had to cut it out for continuity LOL. I also left out, like, Mousepaw and Minnowpaw or whatever too.
Like any big name, Warrior Cats has the plot armor of "we're famous, we can do whatever we want 'cause people will still consume our products. So screw quality."
Honestly even with the list and the fact there’s still MANY side characters with forbidden relationships is telling. It was a cool concept at first but now it’s just “oh shit here we go again”
I do get super sick of it, but that’s why I love that the latest arc is allowing cats to switch clans if they fall in love outside theirs. It’s far from perfect, but it’s something. ThunderClan is SUPER inbred at this point, and I don’t even want to think about the genetics of the clans who started out with fewer cats. We need “cross clan” and “rogue” couples.
i know your comment is older but i actually found some research papers online about healthy cat populations (in relationship to population control of strays) without going into detail using their metrics and formulas i roughly calculated that youd need about 30-40 cats per clan in warriors for a genetically deverse enough genpool to give longterm survival. 25 is the absolute minimum and would require selective partnerships to ensure genetic diversity. The only group in warriors that actually does this right is the sisters lol. No wonder their males are literally superpowered compared to most normal clancats. (Atleast in terms of spiritual connection) Also: the tribe of rushing waters should likely be the most inbreed group by a mile. Even early thunderclan already had halfclan cats from old skyclan. The Tirbe of Rushing water has no outside connections basically at all, being so remote you stumble upon them basically by accident.
NOT THE VIDEO I EXPECTED BUT GOD THE VIDEO WE NEEDED- forbidden love as a whole feels like a forced concept in warriors. but it sucks cause honestly forbidden love IS a fun idea and can be used to make excellent conflict. but the erins use the same formula each time they write it and it becomes boring and predictable. id like to see them take their usual idea of forbidden love and REALLy do something different/impactful with it
Everyone on Twitter was just kinda off and I didn't know how to tell them 😭 Graystripe and Millie was like the only official art I could find of cats showing visible affection towards one another that semi kind of counted as a forbidden relationship so I just had to chuck it in there anyway. I totally agree! Thank you so much!
It’s even worse with not so forbidden love such as Squirrelflight and Bramblestar, the relationship was toxic to the brim not to memories the people who argue wether or not if it was Squirrelflight or Bramblestar. And the others who say Ashfur is better for Squirrelflight, I’ve been reading the books lately and hearing these arguments made is just a bit pointless. Then there’s also Mapleshade and Appledusk, some people may think her doings were good but in reality everything she did was for her own selfish needs. She’s certainly a great villain and if anything villains with pure evil and no other drive to be that way but with people trying to support what she was doing is just- no.
Mapleshade literally thinking that her having kits will bind Appledusk to her,,, People forget how absolutely selfish Maple was even before her kits died. She thought of her kits as a way for her to get away with a forbidden relationship. That nobody in Thunderclan would ever have a problem with her having kits with Appledusk, the cat who literally killed the Leader's SON. Then they demonize Frecklewish for not having the best response ever to Maple lying to her. Maple is a good villain, definitely not a good friend or mother (imo)
@@falcon_arkaig and not mention how frecklewish being treated by fandom like… guys, she doesn’t even know how to swim and not mention she probably still have some trauma of the lake like you expect to jump in and save kit? It like forceding person who doesn’t know how to swim and have Thalassophobia into water. All of you will think frecklewish is bad but honestly, frecklewish and the kit be already dead if she throw her life away and only for her to dead with the kit
@@dangdao8068 It seems like the fans mostly treat the women that are victims like sh*t and blame them for crap. Squrrielflight, Leafpool, Dovewing, Frecklewish. Then they go and act like Mapleshade is some ultra girl boss, my goodness.
I used to really like the whole "forbidden romance" trope and how nice it felt, but recently the ships really feel like just the same ol thing over and over again. And I know that they are going to do it again with the starless clan with nightheart and sunbeam and I hope they dont because that still feels like a copy of the last arcs whole thing.
Thank you so much. You have no idea how much comments like these help: I spend a ridiculous amount of time tinkering the script whenever I make these videos. It's people like you that make it worth it 😭😭
@@Hawkkz You’re welcome, I’ve been binging your content since I stumbled across it. Will certainly be drawing some fanart of your “avatar” once Artfight gets over, as someone who just graduated from university, didn’t think I’d find someone intellectually engaging with a book series that meant so much to me as a kid.
I put all my trust in the Erin’s that Sunbeam and Nightheart will be a ship. Also, the new arc probably only allows forbidden ships because they can’t control themselves with the forbidden ships
Perrsonally, I feel like graystripe and millie wasnt really forbidden. Yes, she was a kittypet, but techincly he was too. Plus, she joined thunderclan after so..
To be completely honest, I only counted it because it was in the thumbnail LOL. I couldn't find any other official art of characters showing affection for each other 💀 As I said in the video, the list is just an estimation at best! Even without Graystripe and Millie, there's still a lot of forbidden romances nonetheless.
I feel like, even if it's so repetitive, it makes sense that cats of this universe would experience forbidden love so often. I mean, the fact that there are SO many cats, plus the fact that there are also SO many cats that aren't "allowed" to have relations with each other, just means that its bound to happen quite frequently. I know this doesn't mean that the authors have to include it, just because it would make sense, but I would argue you have to give them credit for at least making them all somewhat unique and with so many different outcomes despite the large number. Imagine four groups of cats with roughly 30 in each. Now let's say half of them are female, half are male. So that's about 15 of each sex... Now keep in mind that there is a medicine cat, some kits, some queens, and some elders. How many cats do you have left? Not too many. That's not a lot of cats to choose from. And then there's the fact that there are 3 OTHER CLANS that meet up together at least every full moon. Ample time to meet new cats. Just wanted to put that into perspective. Because, to me, the amount of forbidden love stories in the series as a whole just doesn't seem like too many. Sure, it can get repetitive. But anything can get repetitive if there are 60+ books in a series all in the same universe imo
I used to love forbidden love plots in my books (mostly away from warriors) and then I realized that a lot of the appeal for me was that I (a gay/gay leaning bi) felt like it felt somewhat relatable. Now I really just want more LGBT cats even though it'll never happen :(
It's a shame that LGBTQ+ relationships aren't explored more in Warriors. I think that's on part of the publisher though considering how often Kate Cary herself has tried to push for stuff like FirexGray. But for now, I think I'll be just fine with my head canons :)
@@Sheedystar_the_cat @Sheedystar The Cat Like Hawkkz said, the publishers won't really even let TallJake or Raven/Barley be canon, so I wouldn't count them beyond headcanon/outter side word of one author yet unfortunately. I want some *canon* LGBT rep but I know the publishers wouldn't be cool with it. As an mlm who's been reading the books since childhood, I really wish we had any actual canon mlm relationships. That said I think wlw relationships are actually more likely to become canon first if they were to include an LGBT narrative, historically wlw get mainstream recognition in genre fiction before mlm do. I'm not a Whistle/Frost fan myself but I'm with you, that'd be a much better option than any other forbidden option they have in this series. I also hope they spawn a good fanfic community like our last she-cat fan-favorite medicine cat ship, I think that's a good thing to have for wlw in the fandom.
@@GrimmDelightsDice I know Vicky isn’t on the team anymore but at least we know she supports lgbt I think she once left a rainbow heart on her Facebook page
From a meta perspective, yeah. Forbidden love is something that just goes on in every arc and it's frustrating because no one really acknowledges it much. It also doesn't happen outside of the main characters, like how crookedstars book had a background forbidden romance. From a universe perspective, I could see a number of justifications, but none are really addressed in the books. Its like they wipe a clean slate on any progress except to reference it. I would like to think these romances have value though, just because of my own personal interpretation of the books.
The thing with forbidden relationships is that people think they’re this new epidemic in Warriors that started in the 2010’s and no where else, when that’s just not true. The first arc’s plots alone were hinged on forbidden relationships, from a cats motives to why said cat is evil. We all agree it’s a dumb rule because unless people create Clans with separate culture, they’re the same culture. And that’s how it is with the Clans now and in a way the Clans then. They’re just the same, thus negating the need for nationalism and exceptionalism in a culture that should very well thrive in said ideaology. And that’s why forbidden love has never worked in Warriors as canon but has worked in fanfiction (sometimes) and even other book sagas that follow the same mantras as Warriors does. That and every single plot is not refreshing at all. In Onestar’s confession we have the overdone love at first sight narrative, which plagued every single one of these forbidden relationships, besides the ones that don’t really even count, like Raggedpelt and Yellowfang. And despite how people say “oh it’ll widen the genetic pool”! It won’t. Once it’s done enough we’re back to where we’ve started, with arguably more issues. And most incest… isn’t that bad? First cousin incest is bad like Breezepelt, Lionblaze and Heathertail, it’s usually second cousins people harp on. Some people don’t even consider second cousins cousins anymore after that point.
once again a really informative video, especially with the great editing and visuals :D forbidden love is and always will be a theme in warriors, but it's true that it's overdone to the point it has lost it's impact. it seems that each arc has a formula and this is another thing the authors definitely won't be changing anytime soon, unfortunately like you said, even when these relationships are legalised, there's still conflict around them. in the end, it's never going to be considered okay. you could write a situation like this, where society slowly but surely warms up to the idea that cats liking each other from other clans is fine, but i doubt this is what they're going for
4:52 I feel like BristleRoot being gradually developed doesn’t hold as much weight when the development they have isn’t really all that good. I often see that as an explanation by Bristleroot shippers as to why it’s a good relationship, but for me they really lacked the ability to move forward in their relationship. It always felt like they were discussing the same things over and over again. Drawn out =/= well developed and it’s why I really disliked reading about these two. We never really got much development into their relationship itself. We saw them discuss being in a relationship more than actually being in one. Warriors romance, funnily enough, often feels lacking of actual romance. It’s kinda something I wish the Erins took more into account. It feels like they like to draw out things in replacement for just writing a good developing relationship. It’s about the details, not just the big picture alone.
Thank you for this video! Every time I talk about this with other fans I find they find it dumb, you making a video with points is always fun to hear! The one thing I didn’t like about bristlefrost x rootspring was the rush the authors had to tell us that this will be a conflict and it will be important.
This is SUCH a good analysis!! Another great video Hawkkz, keep up the good work! I'm honestly just hoping Sunbeam and Nightheart won't continue this forbidden relationships line xD
Bristlefrost's story was just so tragic in comparison though. Like, imagine you spend basically your whole life carrying ThunderClan around on your back constantly stressed out that you're going to get caught, you get dumped and some little weirdo you saved like 2 weeks ago makes his entire personality about you for his first 2 books, and then you just straight up disappear and get absolutely 0 saving grace at all 💀 I loved Rootspring for his dynamic with Tree and I would love to see more of his newfound somber maturity in A Starless Clan, but it's all just kind of funny looking back on it and remembering how hard Bristlefrost got screwed over. Never has there been a more depressing yet incredibly ridiculous pairing in the entirety of the series LOL
1:21 crowfeather and feather tail was an canon ship as we get notice from storm fur trying to ask why she loves crowfeather or at the time crow paw. Not to mention we have lots of other ones that aren’t exactly like canon… if that make sense. Anther canon one we approach is brook where small fish swim and stormfur.
Okay, so let me just say thank you. I'm the Spottedstorm from the rant you open with and even though it's not there long (and I likely should revisit and fix it up some time now that more forbidden romance has since popped up), I'm so happy to be seen by the community!
I just like to think that we’re only seeing the characters who are doing the forbidden romances and when you have a bunch of members of a clan you’re more likely to have more people doing it 🤣
In my Warriors series I have a few forbidden romance couples. One of them is a medicine cat and warrior. The second is a WildClan cat and ShadowClan cat who both ended up living together in WildClan. The last is a kittypet and warrior falling in love. I don’t use it as a cliche, but rather as an arc. Plus I don’t overuse this concept either. I use it in a way to make my characters enjoyable and alive. A way to bring them right off the pages and into one's mind.
AWHHH YEAH!!! New hawkkz video!! This one looks Insane in terms of editing; I love the style!! (Only my 100th time saying that). And I totally agree-to an extent. I think most Forbids could be written MUCH better, and maybe just the bad writing is the reason people don’t like it. Although yes there is WAY too much forbids, I think the erins could help it out by atleast putting effort into it. Honestly, romance in Warriors generally sucks and is just really never enjoyable. I never go “awhhh!!! How cute!” It’s more of “ugh. This again?” Because WE NEED A STORY WITHOUT ROMANCE!!! Yknow what? How about romance in general is just forgotten about in Warriors because they really aren’t that great at it. All I do is scoff and roll my eyes at it. Edit: forgot to ask, what do you edit with? Good video as always!!
Aw, thanks! I use DaVinci Resolve to edit my videos: it's free and the closest thing to Adobe Premiere/After Effects (which I had classes on), but I'm almost entirely self-taught!
With the code being changed in the starless clan arc where cats can switch clans I don't think that forbidden romances would have to happen all that much anymore.
I think there are times when forbidden love is done well however I wish they would write a story in which cross clan relationships aren’t looked down and borders aren’t as strict through changes to the code. I’m not against more of it but I think we’ve gotten a lot of to where we can get less of it or something different
Tbh if many of these 'forbidden' romances didn't involve ThunderClan cats mainly and if ThunderClan wasn't always the main focus, it wouldn't be as worn out but I agree, forbidden romance in Warriors is wearing thin by now. The last 'forbidden romance' i was interested in was Lionblaze and Heathertail(??) but that ended before it could really take off and not to mentoin it was mostly overshadowed by how the Erins mishandled Hollyleaf and the Power of Three.
Just found your videos and I love it. A good warriors analysis channel without all the exaggeration. Bristlefrost and Rootspring is still the best one, though, in my opinion. Despite being a run down trope, I found their dynamic to be really sweet, and surprisingly dark at the end. However, I can agree that their relationship development felt? Inconsistent? My least favorite? Greystripe and Millie. Because nobody likes her.
Aw, thank you so much! I absolutely agree. It makes me feel really bad for Bristlefrost, but I think it was worth it for them to finally show that they're capable of writing tragedy like that into the books. The permanency of it was a step in the right direction for the series for sure.
I completely agree with your opinion ; the autors are starting to repeat themselves with so many forbidden romances and that makes the books ( in which forbbiden love is found ) slightly boring , in my opinion . (Also u are extremely underrated ur videos are really good)
for moth and micah, the forbidden romance rule wasn't in the warrior code yet, it was added there after moth flight had kits and also the rule medicine cats cant have kits was added
Jayfeather x halfmoon was so incredibly pointless it continues to annoy me to this day. Like, Jay spent THREE DAYS in the vague proximity of halfmoon while pretending to be someone else and the Erin’s decided “Romance!”
we have more forbidden relationships than healthy, 'normal' relationships id much rather have a slow burn friends to lovers healthy relationship than yet another 'fell in love at first sight' romeo and juliet shit
I think you make a good point about what forbidden love does for warriors and I can understand and agree with some points you made. GrayxSilver wasn’t a bad couple and in fact was an interesting twist to warriors. BristlexRoot I didn’t understand the hate until now which I can understand how the cliche ruins the relationship (which I feel like ALITM did appropriately display the outcome for this). However, I personally disagree with GrayxMillie because I don’t see it as a forbidden couple because they were both kittypets and rejoined ThunderClan together (in all honestly I think this couple is good because it displays less of fandom needs and more of a realistic touch of opening yourself up to other people and giving a second chance at happiness which I think was very well executed). But that’s just my opinion. I personally don’t mind forbidden love but I do see how cliche it can affect the plot. And I personally don’t really want nightxsun to end up together (not that I hate it but mostly because it’s hard to see this ship as anything but a BristlexRoot remake). But that’s just my opinion but great video tho.
Thank you so much! Don't worry about the Graystripe and Millie thing lmao. I barely count that as a forbidden ship (nor do I honestly dislike it either specifically because of the manga), but it was, like, GENUINELY the only official art I could find of characters showing affection towards each other LOL. I apologize.
@@Hawkkz honestly I don’t mind forbidden romance in some aspects but if it is use for the primary aspect is just for plot devices then I could lose respect for it.
There are so many other types of other romance tropes that the Erin’s could do. How about enemies to lovers, best friends, competitors turned lovers there are so many more romance tropes and I’m just frustrated there not doing any of them
Man why don’t they have a main character who just NEVER gets a mate? Cut the romance subplot. Mateless MC! (I may or may not just want more AroAce rep but shhhh. Don’t tell anyone.)
@@M4t_P4tGT we have Graywing, obviously, but maybe we could get a passage or two with the writers basically saying that being an adopted child doesn't make you any less of a child to your adoptive parent just because they don't share blood. If feel like a huge part of Warriors is that "blood doesn't tie you down, loyalty does." with Firestar's whole first arc, but that is thrown out the window when regressive ideas like "you're not the parent's true child if you're adopted" become endangered because of "blood doesn't tie you down, loyalty does." so the writers make sure that the readers get the picture that they think adopted children aren't the real children of their parents, and don't count as much as a biological child would. It's gross.
Wasn’t the warrior code founded BECAUSE of a forbidden relationship? Lol I think the forbidden romance plot was done okay in the original arc, since it contributed to character growth by them having to make tough decisions, but after that it becomes predictable like you said
This is exactly why i always go back to the first series and appreciate the fair amount of actual forbidden and how they actually tied well, as nowadays most forbidden relations just feel the same and ovverated. The forbidden romance trope in warrior cats is so annoying now to the point where i feel as if the authors dont care in quality of relationships, especially when they throw off the plot. The cliche is so bad, it just destroys the whole point of the books. Amazing script & amazing video overall. Glad someone finally talked about this
Man idk, it's used A LOT yes, but tbh I'm not tired of it. Idk how I do it, and that doesn't mean some couples aren't badly written because there certainly are!! I get that people get tired of the same trope over and over, and yes it's lazy, but it doesn't mean I won't enjoy the drama that comes out of it tho lol And great video btw!! Loved it tho I don't agree! You're feeding us with good content my man keep going :)
If they got with the story of”Nightheart leaves ThunderClan” I want it to be because he realizes he’s never escape Firestar’s shadow if he doesn’t leave ThunderClan. And I don’t want him to join ShadowClan or SkyClan. I want him to try running away from Clan life entirely after Sorrelstripe’s death, but is found by Breezepelt who sees a lot of his younger self in Nightheart and convinces him to join WindClan, promising to give him the support he needs to make his own legacy. When Nightheart passes a near impossible challenge to join, Breezepelt explains his past and how he knows the pain and loneliness Nighthearts feels, promising to be a father figure to him. Nightheart is then adopted by Breezepelt’s daughters as a brother and eventually falls in love with one of them (I personally like the idea of it being Appleshine because she seems sweet and kind). ThunderClan tries to force him to come back, Sparkpelt and Finchlight say nasty things before publicly disowning him after an argument at a gathering where Breezepelt and his daughters defend Nightheart. Also, when his new warrior name is introduced to the next gathering, I want either Squirrelflight, Sparkpelt, or Finchlight to say something snarky about him refusing to be named Flameheart after Firestar’s warrior name and the bulk of ThunderClan agreeing with them, then Breezepelt ask why Nightheart specifically has to carry on Firestar’s legacy when Lionblaze, Jayfeather, Cloudtail, and Cloudtail, Squirrelflight, and Lionblaze’s kin are also related to him but don’t have the same burden. Maybe even have Jayfeather- who supports Nightheart- throw in a sarcastic “because we aren’t PuRe ThUnDeRClAn ToMs who chose to be warriors, like Nightheart.” I want to see cats from another Clan- one that doesn’t put so much emphasis on legacy- stand up for Nightheart. And my reason for it being WindClan isn’t just Breezepelt and my ship. We already have main protagonists in RiverClan and ShadowClan, so we don’t need another on there. And I feel like given what Firestar did in reviving SkyClan, they may also put pressure on Nightheart to live up to his legacy. He IS the great grandson of the reason why most of them even exist, after all. If it weren’t for those reasons, there could be a cat in any of the other Clans that could take a positive parental role for Nightheart. Tawnypelt would definitely understand living in the shadow of another cat. Violet shine would understand being made to feel like you don’t belong by your own Clan. And I’m sure they could give a RiverClan warrior a backstory to make them feel empathy for Nightheart’s situation, especially Harelight, Mothwing, and Icewing after being exiled in the last arc. WindClan doesn’t have a protagonist or a strong connection to Firestar. But but they do have Breezepelt, who understands growing up fatherless (Crowfeather not being present in his youth), being treated differently for the actions of another (what he told Jayfeather at the Moonpool in The Fourth Apprentice makes it seem like his Clanmates did this to him after the reveal of Jayfeather, LionBlaze, and Hollyleaf’s true parentage), and he knows what it’s like to feel so unwanted by your Clan that you have to act out for any kind of acknowledgment (the way Tornear described his behavior in The Sight sounds more like he was acting out for attention, not just being overly aggressive, and that need for attention and willingness to do anything to get it was what caused him to become an easy victim for the Dark Forest cats). I feel like Breezepelt would best understand him and being a father, especially after just losing one of his daughters, he would feel the parental urge to guide him so he doesn’t go down the same path of self destruction he (Breezepelt) had. By offering him a family to love and support him for who he is would also help both of them. Breezepelt is probably heavily grieving Smokehaze’s death. He probably blames himself more than anyone else for letting her join the rebels. He would definitely need to acknowledge he isn’t trying to replace his deceased daughter by taking in Nightheart, but would also need to make it clear that his intentions DO have some slight selfishness to them. Nightheart needs someone to acknowledge who HE is and what HE has to offer and Breezepelt might need a distraction to help him work though this grief or someone he feels could listen to him talk about his thoughts without judgement. They can help each other find what they need to feel free.
i think tigerheart and dovewing's entire existence angered me more than thistleclaw's attitude did. and don't get me started on how much i brutally hated thistleclaw.
I like forbidden love it makes up drama and you see more of the characters personality sure they won’t know which clan to live in but still I like it you can’t change my mind about it
Yes, it caused a lot of problems. But it also added a lit of drama and spice to the books. I agree there's a lot, but without them there wouldn't be many main cats in the books; We wouldn't have: **small spoilers** Feathertail or stormfur Mistytar or stonefur Brokenstar/tail Blossomfall, bumblestripe, or briarlight Shadowsight, lightleap, or pouncestep Mapleshade's life to being evil (and she was with oakheart, appledusk was the she can't he left her for) Darktail's menace to the clans.
Forbidden love might work if it was clan members & and kitty pets since many despise kitty pets as the week links of cats unless they truly deemed themselves strong.
the close-knit small clans mean that at any given moment, a warrior can pretty much only choose to mate with their relative or a child. forbidden relationships fixes that problem, so i'm not surprised about how common they are.
The only forbidden relationship that I thought was good in warriors was bluestar because there was genuine sacrifice and heartache bluestar had to go through in giving her kits away and that pain was a burden she had to carry all her life as leader.Characters like graystripe,leafpool,and dovewing are just not as compelling with their relationships because they’re just outright selfish with how they go about it.Graystripe kills silverstream by having her children and soon after leaves riverclan even though he said he would stay for his kits, leafpool outright manipulates her sister into covering for her and even yellowfang helps her do it which REALLY makes me mad.And then dovewing just gets with tigerheart for God knows why because she’s dovewing and she can just do whatever tf she wants.Even the temporary relationship between lionblaze and heathertail brings out the nasty side of him when he refuses twice to bring medicine for dying thunderclan just because he doesn’t wanna run into her.
Yes I’m at the beginning but I wanna say yellowfang and raggedstar wasn’t truely forbidden they didn’t continue their relationship after yellow’fang became a medicine cat from what I remember. I may be wrong since I haven’t read the book in quite some time. Yellowfang still lived raggedstar but didn’t continue the relationship. Again I may be wrong haven’t read the book in a bit-
She did have kits. It's technically forbidden. You could also just argue that it basically wasn't forbidden as it was (as I see it) just an excuse to give Brokenstar a sad backstory. Oh crap I just wrote an essay for a comment made a month ago-
Everything you say is right. My head has been screaming at the Erin Hunter team to just stop with the forbidden relationships. They're so annoying. Silverstream and Graystripe was interesting, but they just kept going on and on, and now I hate Silverstream x Graystripe.
you can argue Jayfeather x Halfmoon is not a forbidden romance. For all intends and purposes, during the time itself that these events technically happned in the story: Jay's Wing wasnt a medicine cat/the med cat code didnt even exist yet and he and Halfmoon where from the same "clan".
You forgot minnowtail x mousewhisker Reedfeather x fallowtail Squrrielwhisker and eaglestorm cloud/berry and rye whisker hal x featherstorm nettle x yarrowleaf beechfur gorsetail and I guess stormfur and Brook? ( I’m not counting the new ones in the new book)
old video but theres actually 15 forbidden romances in the whole books, in one of the guides, into the clans, theres a cat named ryewhisker from windclan who has a mate in riverclan, cloudberry
The only way they can breathe life into the forbidden romance trope is to do a m/m or w/w ship which when speaking in terms of canon, has NEVER been explored before. Yes, I know there's Tallstar and Jake or Barely and Ravenpaw but when you get down to it, they were never truly confirmed in story. A gay romance where the characters are wondering of what they're doing is "right" would be interesting to read but knowing The Erins, they would fuck it up.
If you were to gather all of the cats in the books in a forbidden relationship, I think you'd have most of the cats. Mousewhisker and Minnowtail were pretty obvious. But the chances that there are super-secretive ships that aren't noted are high. Heck, Brackenfur and Grassheart could have been a couple (no i dont ship them)
Fr tho.. it’s such a buzzkill, and quite frankly the fact it was part of the warrior code that it was illegal to do this for literal years (in book time, if not longer) when multiple other cats (literally ones of power, bluestar, onestar, um.. can’t think of more but u get the point lol) like.. whyyyyyy wasn’t it glaringly obvious maybe just maybe that rule should change yk? It’s just stupid LOL
Idea: instead of reusing the trope of forbidden love, use it for sibling love. Siblings that were torn from eachother at a young age and want nothing more than to just be best friends again. It’s literally a billion dollar idea. Because frozen.
Ah yes this trope, I personally wouldn't dislike it as much if they did a better job of writing(kinda biased cause my main warrior cats oc is in a "Forbidden Relationship") but that's besides the point, the point is that if the Warrior Cats "Story Team" wants to make an at least readable or better yet GOOD forbidden romance there are certain steps that need to be taken to do it Step One: establish it as a one off thing(a side character pointing out that the character in question acts different around said cat but not force it or shoehorn it in) Step Two: Have both characters have actually good development and personality Step Three: have the cats possibly be side characters NOT main Characters they are BOUND to make romance somewhat of the plot and most of the best warrior cats couples aren't in the spotlight(Like brightheart and cloudtail) Step Four: have the characters interact and have valid reasons to like each other and have them benefit from each other and bring out the best in one another Step Five: Don't have a whole bunch of drama surrounding the relationship at this point the clans need to know forbidden relationships are bound to happen anyway because of how many there have been sure they don't have to agree with it but they shouldn't think it's taboo at this point besides it doesn't even matter since cats who have been in forbidden relationships like graystripe,leafpool,appledusk and bluestar have went to starclan Step Six: Have both the characters not give a care what the clan thinks if the couple is truly happy together it shouldn't be an issue especially if they aren't hurting anyone they would both still be loyal to their respective clans but their love for each other will never burn out In my opinion that's a way to write an acceptable forbbiden romance but what we have now is just....Yuck seriously it is really getting old it's the same formula every single time like Yikes XD (Sorry for the rant if you read all of this then you get a cookie XD
Wow I mean, yeah. Literally all of that: yeah. That's the 6 steps to success LOL They should hire you to draft these books: we need someone on the inside 😎
@Hawkkz OMG thank you that is a huge compliment! I'm glad you agree^^ Also trust me I would draft/Write the books if I could XD I love your videos man keep up the great work you definitely gained a new subscriber!!^^
Ha- WAIT YOU ARENT KIDDING!? This is just stupid to me, I mean, really- forbidden loves are one of the reasons I love the books. I like drama! Action! If you dont like that, then YOU have a problem
i liked cinderheart and lionblaze's relationship and how it gradually developed. it became really tiring to see forbiddem relationships time and time again. i feel like they could have saved forbidden love and it be really interesting if it was only a few times
Hmm...I have mixed feelings about this.I think some of these ships were made solely to prevent incest (which is a hole the authors dug themselves into with how the Clans work) even if that is realistic for cats to begin with. I like a lot of the forbidden romances but I do wish the authors would show cats (mainly protagonists) falling in love with their Clanmates more since that's supposed to be the norm even though we see it wayyy less than we should with our protagonists. The protagonists are the windows of the story and allow us to see into the Clans. If it's against the code to fall in love with cats from other Clans, these protagonists need to show that themselves instead of constantly sticking out of their Clans like a sore thumb. It would be nice to see more protagonists fall in love with their Clanmates. I can literally mention how few protagonists fell in love with cats from their own Clans: Firestar, Squirrelflight, Brambleclaw, Lionblaze, Ivypool, Leopardstar, Crookedstar, Pinestar (wasn't properly even written smh), Leafstar, Tigerstar, and Hawkwing. Some cats I mentioned had both forbidden and non-forbidden romances as well which puts them in a...weird spot. Tigerstar and Lionblaze both had forbidden romances, for example. The first two arcs tackled the issue well. Firestar saw a forbidden romance from afar and it was just as good and was even the most iconic ship in the series. However, there's the whole Spottedleaf thing but this served as a very important character flaw for him right up until his death. This arc was good at tackling the drama that happened with in-Clan relationships and simple crushes that had to be ignored for the sake of the code (Cinderpelt, for example). The second arc was good with this as well. Feathertail's death was impactful and necessary for Crowfeather's arc as well. Stormfur had a brief crush on Squirrelflight but it was very brief and he eventually fell for Brook while living in the Tribe. Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw slowly developed their relationship and the focus on them in this series was probably the best even if later books tainted them. Leafpool's arc was pivotal and necessary for the next series. After this, however, forbidden love becomes more manufactured and so does romance as a whole. Lionblaze's arc with Heathertail was pointless and I think was only made to show that he had anger issues in later books or something. Jayfeather's arc with Half Moon was half-ass and I think him falling for Briarlight would've been a better forbidden romance (him having to deal with that would've been more entertaining than most of the ones we got). Dovewing X Tigerheart is there for the sake of being there. It's a mess. We should also remember how the first two arcs portrayed Ferncloud X Dustpelt, Cloudtail X Brightheart, and Sorreltail X Brackenfur. They were healthy in-Clan relationships that were written well even for background characters. It's a shame that they stopped even writing them out properly and just mention that "character 1 had character 2's kits" without showing them.
I personally Moth Flight and Micah CANNOT be a forbidden relationship. Moth Flight had not yet banned medicine cats not having kits (she banned it because she bore Micah's kits), the warrior code wasn't a thing yet, therefore half-clan relationships and medicine cats having kits was not prohibited yet. Therefore, it wasn't illegal. (In Warriors)
I never really hated forbidden love. but, however, I wish they developed more coupled in the clan. brambleclaw and squirrelflight started off good as that, but nope, ruined. and if they really wanna do couples from different clans it shouldn’t be forbidden. sometimes i just think forbidden love is used to fill up spaces that need conflict, but its not necessary. warriors has proved many times that there is more conflict than forbidden relationships, such as the dark forest (oots), possession and manipulation which i absolutely love (tbc), murder misteries (like Ashfur’s, and the recent Curlfeather) tiranny, and way way more. i wish they would use more of that instead because there is still much to it.
as someone who never got that far i the books (I didn't even finish book two of the first series) I know my voice on the matter is very limited. But what I can say about it is this: I feel like they use "Forbidden love" a lot in these books because of one major thing that, looking back, semi-explains why they use it so much. how it test the character's in said relationship's bonds with there perspective clans. A good example is Graystripe and Silverstream's relationship. We see, from the tvunderclan perspective, how it tears Graystripe and Fireheart apart. Basically turning the two cats that were basically brother for most of the book(s) into almost enemies. Now am I say this is a excuse for this basically becoming the biggest trope in the series next to continuity issues? hELL NO!!! It IS a problem, a major one at that, which for many ruins certain characters and doesn't give others the time sun they so deserve. But, as I've learned from my brief time on this world, perfection is a goal that will never be reached, not even by God. Some of us will just grit our teeth and bear it, others might not do so and instead find something they love. Ether way...there really isn't anything we can do to change it.
I'm late. I'm a strange soul who manages to ship practically only cannon and implied. I'm here to say that the only dramatic forbidden romance I can see going smooth right now is a sisters' descendant and a dead person.
I miss FireStar and SpottedLeaf, they would be a cute couple (I know she’s much older, but the books didn’t said that and represented her as “a Young and beautiful she cat” so that’s how I imagine her, as a young and beautiful cat), but yeah I imagine an universe were they were able to have kits because the warrior code didn’t hated the she cats, and they had a happy ending…
Only forbidden ones I’m open to is Tigerdove, Silvergrey, Blueoak, Leafcrow and Feathercrow some can be okay for me though but Bristleroot took it a little to far for me because we got so much of it that I got kinda sick of it, don’t get me wrong Light in the mist was spectacular for ruining their ”happy ending” but I feel Bristles feelings were a bit rushed I mean considering the books before she only thought of him as this apprentice who was head over heels for her, following her around like a lost puppy to suddenly being like “sure I’ll date him since he’s my only last escort” and she doesn’t even seem sure about her feelings, I still like the ship but it’s a bit rushed, and don’t even get me started on Sky… ( I got it early but theirs a particular ship that’s gonna throw people off ) Also if they make Minnowmouse canon I’d be so surprised and so happy because it’s cool to have “oh this was canon and you somewhat knew about it!”
Let's not forget that there's also the ones that play outside of the main arcs. Such as Reedfeather and Fallowtail, Featherstorm and Hal, hell even the not-so important ones like Yarrowleaf and Nettle (which happens in-arc but isn't spoken about often) and Beechfur and Gorsetail.
Using those approximations, the approximate 2 relationships per arc boosts to around 2.6, which isn't much of a difference but it's something to note.
They were interesting in the first and second series but over time the Erins began to overdo it. Especially with protagonists falling in love with cats outside of the Clan.
I honest to god didn’t know about all of those except for Gorsetail and Beechfur LOL. Wow oh my God I can’t BELIEVE it’s that bad. I even left out Mapleshade and Appledusk in the calculation in the video 😭
@@Hawkkz Yeah, it's definitely bad. I love the concept, but Erins definitely overdid it. With the new code in TBC, that should hopefully slow it down. Honestly, we never know for sure though.
Also Minnowtail and Mousewhisker from Arc 4 which feels pretty confirmed by context clues imo but definitely an opinionated take
@@GweenOfTea It's possible! However, I don't think it's canon so that's why I didn't include it. (If it is canon, it's retconned.) Either way, only worsens the situation.
There's another really forgotten one, Eaglestorm from WindClan and Squirrelwhisker from ThunderClan.
It also annoys me how these cats are willing to leave their mom,dad, siblings and friends for a cat they met a week ago or in greystripes case even a day ago.
And Greystripe couldn’t even commit to switching clans anyway
graystripe’s reason was pretty understandable though, he switched impulsively because of the grief of losing his mate and how he was about to lose his kits too
He also ditched his apprentice constantly
Agreed, I espescially didnt like the Bristle X Root ship
*Spoilers for Lights In The Mist*
Littearly when Bristle Dies Root Litearlly said To his clans face + all the other clans
"Yea I was about to ditch all of you for Bristle and her clan...But oh well shes dead Now im gonna stay with all of you, but if she were alive I totally would have left all of you :P"
I mean that’s how it happens in real life also lol so not too uncommon. But I do hate how quickly every single cat seems to fall in love
my problem with forbidden romance is that it causes so much pain and drama that could've been prevented if the cats were allowed to be together
I really wish they'd learn to stop using it as a problem and just properly explore more of their romances. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them *not* to.
But unfortunately status quo is god
Okay but isn't the whole point of warrior cats is to be dramatic??!
But thats literally what wcue is- drama,pain ect?
I don't know why it took those cats so many books to realize that (idk I haven't actually read them...)
I thought the concept was cool at first like with Graystripe’s romance with Silverstream was nice, I actually liked it! but by the time Bristle x root rolled around it had become so repetitive and I was getting kinda sick of it. Moral is it was interesting at first and now it is used out and dried up. And I swear to StarClan that if there is ANOTHER forbidden romance plot in the ASC arc I will literally lose what’s left of my sanity and my arm will force me to throw the book out the window. Please Erin’s stop it already! Although I will give it an exception if it is Tom x Tom or she-cat x She-cat otherwise please no more!
I agree! I think the strives they're making in A Starless Clan will hopefully stop much of the attention that it gets, but I honestly don't know what I'd do if they genuinely created another one again LOL
@@Hawkkz it seems they have no intentions of stopping because ALREADY they have two (although not forbidden because of the new changes to the code) cross clan romances Shellfur x Fernstripe and Spireclaw x Fringewhisker and it looks already that they are trying to set up Sunbeam and Nightheart which I can already tell will be a nightmare
@@Sheedystar_the_cat Please not Sunbeam and Nightheart :(
I haven't even read the book and I don’t want that.
@@fennelfin me neither
@@Sheedystar_the_cat Not gonna lie im about as far as the sight and I have no clue who any of these cats even are but I can tell with a name like Sunbeam and Nighthawk there gonna be doomed lol
I feel the good thing that comes from the forbidden relationships is genetic variation,considering that most cats are related in their clans,but even then...that's a weird reason for having forbidden romance.
They just need to stop being forbidden lol
@@Hawkkz literally
It’s funny because sometimes the cats in the forbidden relationships are STILL RELATED (although distantly).
For example, Tigerheart and Dovewing are related as Goldenflower is Tigerheart’s grandmother, her brother is Lionheart, who was revealed to be the father of Frostfur’s litter, which included Brightheart, Dovewing’s grandmother.
So are Heathertail and Lionblaze through Ashfoot and Onestar being siblings, with Ashfoot being Crowfeather’s mom and Onestar apparently being Heathertail’s dad (also meaning that Heathertail and Breezepelt are related too).
@@nyabis8044 Warrior Cats family tree is very weird DJNSJS
a whole mess. Also, dont talk about Graystripe's mother and dad...
Great to see millie/greystripe being considered forbidden because millie should stay unloved
LMAO
*>:[*
BAHAHHAHAHAH
Ahhh this!
Fair point millie only made things worse with briarlight and gave her self worth issues :( Poor briarlight
Gorsetail and Beechfur are often forgotten, but they literally had kids like around the oots arc. Crookedstars mate Willowbreeze is also halfclan. Now with the fact that thr warrior code is changed there's no longer forbidden romance at least
Is that the one from Crookedstar’s Promise?? I had it on the script, but I had to cut it out for continuity LOL. I also left out, like, Mousepaw and Minnowpaw or whatever too.
Like any big name, Warrior Cats has the plot armor of "we're famous, we can do whatever we want 'cause people will still consume our products. So screw quality."
Honestly even with the list and the fact there’s still MANY side characters with forbidden relationships is telling. It was a cool concept at first but now it’s just “oh shit here we go again”
I do get super sick of it, but that’s why I love that the latest arc is allowing cats to switch clans if they fall in love outside theirs. It’s far from perfect, but it’s something. ThunderClan is SUPER inbred at this point, and I don’t even want to think about the genetics of the clans who started out with fewer cats. We need “cross clan” and “rogue” couples.
i know your comment is older but i actually found some research papers online about healthy cat populations (in relationship to population control of strays) without going into detail using their metrics and formulas i roughly calculated that youd need about 30-40 cats per clan in warriors for a genetically deverse enough genpool to give longterm survival. 25 is the absolute minimum and would require selective partnerships to ensure genetic diversity.
The only group in warriors that actually does this right is the sisters lol. No wonder their males are literally superpowered compared to most normal clancats. (Atleast in terms of spiritual connection)
Also: the tribe of rushing waters should likely be the most inbreed group by a mile. Even early thunderclan already had halfclan cats from old skyclan. The Tirbe of Rushing water has no outside connections basically at all, being so remote you stumble upon them basically by accident.
NOT THE VIDEO I EXPECTED BUT GOD THE VIDEO WE NEEDED- forbidden love as a whole feels like a forced concept in warriors. but it sucks cause honestly forbidden love IS a fun idea and can be used to make excellent conflict. but the erins use the same formula each time they write it and it becomes boring and predictable. id like to see them take their usual idea of forbidden love and REALLy do something different/impactful with it
Everyone on Twitter was just kinda off and I didn't know how to tell them 😭 Graystripe and Millie was like the only official art I could find of cats showing visible affection towards one another that semi kind of counted as a forbidden relationship so I just had to chuck it in there anyway.
I totally agree! Thank you so much!
It’s even worse with not so forbidden love such as Squirrelflight and Bramblestar, the relationship was toxic to the brim not to memories the people who argue wether or not if it was Squirrelflight or Bramblestar. And the others who say Ashfur is better for Squirrelflight, I’ve been reading the books lately and hearing these arguments made is just a bit pointless. Then there’s also Mapleshade and Appledusk, some people may think her doings were good but in reality everything she did was for her own selfish needs. She’s certainly a great villain and if anything villains with pure evil and no other drive to be that way but with people trying to support what she was doing is just- no.
Mapleshade literally thinking that her having kits will bind Appledusk to her,,, People forget how absolutely selfish Maple was even before her kits died. She thought of her kits as a way for her to get away with a forbidden relationship. That nobody in Thunderclan would ever have a problem with her having kits with Appledusk, the cat who literally killed the Leader's SON. Then they demonize Frecklewish for not having the best response ever to Maple lying to her. Maple is a good villain, definitely not a good friend or mother (imo)
@@falcon_arkaig and not mention how frecklewish being treated by fandom like… guys, she doesn’t even know how to swim and not mention she probably still have some trauma of the lake like you expect to jump in and save kit? It like forceding person who doesn’t know how to swim and have Thalassophobia into water. All of you will think frecklewish is bad but honestly, frecklewish and the kit be already dead if she throw her life away and only for her to dead with the kit
@@dangdao8068 It seems like the fans mostly treat the women that are victims like sh*t and blame them for crap. Squrrielflight, Leafpool, Dovewing, Frecklewish. Then they go and act like Mapleshade is some ultra girl boss, my goodness.
I used to really like the whole "forbidden romance" trope and how nice it felt, but recently the ships really feel like just the same ol thing over and over again. And I know that they are going to do it again with the starless clan with nightheart and sunbeam and I hope they dont because that still feels like a copy of the last arcs whole thing.
I am PRAYING that they don't stick Nightheart and Sunbeam together but it wouldn't be surprising at all if they did 😭
Holy shit, a well written Warrior Cats video essay? This is beautiful.
Thank you so much. You have no idea how much comments like these help: I spend a ridiculous amount of time tinkering the script whenever I make these videos. It's people like you that make it worth it 😭😭
@@Hawkkz You’re welcome, I’ve been binging your content since I stumbled across it. Will certainly be drawing some fanart of your “avatar” once Artfight gets over, as someone who just graduated from university, didn’t think I’d find someone intellectually engaging with a book series that meant so much to me as a kid.
I put all my trust in the Erin’s that Sunbeam and Nightheart will be a ship. Also, the new arc probably only allows forbidden ships because they can’t control themselves with the forbidden ships
Perrsonally, I feel like graystripe and millie wasnt really forbidden. Yes, she was a kittypet, but techincly he was too. Plus, she joined thunderclan after so..
To be completely honest, I only counted it because it was in the thumbnail LOL. I couldn't find any other official art of characters showing affection for each other 💀
As I said in the video, the list is just an estimation at best! Even without Graystripe and Millie, there's still a lot of forbidden romances nonetheless.
@@Hawkkz
That’s- that can’t be *normal* when so much of the books is about romance and affection 😭
It was forbidden until it wasn't
@@mysryuza yep LOL
it was but then they made it not forbidden but it also kind of is?
I feel like, even if it's so repetitive, it makes sense that cats of this universe would experience forbidden love so often. I mean, the fact that there are SO many cats, plus the fact that there are also SO many cats that aren't "allowed" to have relations with each other, just means that its bound to happen quite frequently. I know this doesn't mean that the authors have to include it, just because it would make sense, but I would argue you have to give them credit for at least making them all somewhat unique and with so many different outcomes despite the large number.
Imagine four groups of cats with roughly 30 in each. Now let's say half of them are female, half are male. So that's about 15 of each sex... Now keep in mind that there is a medicine cat, some kits, some queens, and some elders. How many cats do you have left? Not too many. That's not a lot of cats to choose from. And then there's the fact that there are 3 OTHER CLANS that meet up together at least every full moon. Ample time to meet new cats.
Just wanted to put that into perspective. Because, to me, the amount of forbidden love stories in the series as a whole just doesn't seem like too many. Sure, it can get repetitive. But anything can get repetitive if there are 60+ books in a series all in the same universe imo
I used to love forbidden love plots in my books (mostly away from warriors) and then I realized that a lot of the appeal for me was that I (a gay/gay leaning bi) felt like it felt somewhat relatable. Now I really just want more LGBT cats even though it'll never happen :(
It's a shame that LGBTQ+ relationships aren't explored more in Warriors. I think that's on part of the publisher though considering how often Kate Cary herself has tried to push for stuff like FirexGray. But for now, I think I'll be just fine with my head canons :)
There are Awesome examples like Raven x Barley or Tall x Jake not really any she-cat x she-cat though
I am kinda hoping if there is forbidden love I hope it’s between Frostpaw and Whistlepaw cause that would be cute
@@Sheedystar_the_cat @Sheedystar The Cat Like Hawkkz said, the publishers won't really even let TallJake or Raven/Barley be canon, so I wouldn't count them beyond headcanon/outter side word of one author yet unfortunately. I want some *canon* LGBT rep but I know the publishers wouldn't be cool with it. As an mlm who's been reading the books since childhood, I really wish we had any actual canon mlm relationships. That said I think wlw relationships are actually more likely to become canon first if they were to include an LGBT narrative, historically wlw get mainstream recognition in genre fiction before mlm do. I'm not a Whistle/Frost fan myself but I'm with you, that'd be a much better option than any other forbidden option they have in this series. I also hope they spawn a good fanfic community like our last she-cat fan-favorite medicine cat ship, I think that's a good thing to have for wlw in the fandom.
@@GrimmDelightsDice I know Vicky isn’t on the team anymore but at least we know she supports lgbt I think she once left a rainbow heart on her Facebook page
From a meta perspective, yeah. Forbidden love is something that just goes on in every arc and it's frustrating because no one really acknowledges it much. It also doesn't happen outside of the main characters, like how crookedstars book had a background forbidden romance. From a universe perspective, I could see a number of justifications, but none are really addressed in the books. Its like they wipe a clean slate on any progress except to reference it. I would like to think these romances have value though, just because of my own personal interpretation of the books.
The thing with forbidden relationships is that people think they’re this new epidemic in Warriors that started in the 2010’s and no where else, when that’s just not true. The first arc’s plots alone were hinged on forbidden relationships, from a cats motives to why said cat is evil. We all agree it’s a dumb rule because unless people create Clans with separate culture, they’re the same culture. And that’s how it is with the Clans now and in a way the Clans then. They’re just the same, thus negating the need for nationalism and exceptionalism in a culture that should very well thrive in said ideaology. And that’s why forbidden love has never worked in Warriors as canon but has worked in fanfiction (sometimes) and even other book sagas that follow the same mantras as Warriors does.
That and every single plot is not refreshing at all. In Onestar’s confession we have the overdone love at first sight narrative, which plagued every single one of these forbidden relationships, besides the ones that don’t really even count, like Raggedpelt and Yellowfang.
And despite how people say “oh it’ll widen the genetic pool”! It won’t. Once it’s done enough we’re back to where we’ve started, with arguably more issues. And most incest… isn’t that bad? First cousin incest is bad like Breezepelt, Lionblaze and Heathertail, it’s usually second cousins people harp on. Some people don’t even consider second cousins cousins anymore after that point.
once again a really informative video, especially with the great editing and visuals :D
forbidden love is and always will be a theme in warriors, but it's true that it's overdone to the point it has lost it's impact. it seems that each arc has a formula and this is another thing the authors definitely won't be changing anytime soon, unfortunately
like you said, even when these relationships are legalised, there's still conflict around them. in the end, it's never going to be considered okay. you could write a situation like this, where society slowly but surely warms up to the idea that cats liking each other from other clans is fine, but i doubt this is what they're going for
Absolutely! Thank you so much 🥰
4:52
I feel like BristleRoot being gradually developed doesn’t hold as much weight when the development they have isn’t really all that good. I often see that as an explanation by Bristleroot shippers as to why it’s a good relationship, but for me they really lacked the ability to move forward in their relationship. It always felt like they were discussing the same things over and over again. Drawn out =/= well developed and it’s why I really disliked reading about these two. We never really got much development into their relationship itself. We saw them discuss being in a relationship more than actually being in one. Warriors romance, funnily enough, often feels lacking of actual romance.
It’s kinda something I wish the Erins took more into account. It feels like they like to draw out things in replacement for just writing a good developing relationship. It’s about the details, not just the big picture alone.
Thank you for this video! Every time I talk about this with other fans I find they find it dumb, you making a video with points is always fun to hear! The one thing I didn’t like about bristlefrost x rootspring was the rush the authors had to tell us that this will be a conflict and it will be important.
This is SUCH a good analysis!!
Another great video Hawkkz, keep up the good work!
I'm honestly just hoping Sunbeam and Nightheart won't continue this forbidden relationships line xD
Thank you so much! Yeah, so do I LOL. I don't know what I'd do if they did tbh 😬
The only good thing that really came out of bristle and root is the amazing angst and rootsprings character development/growing maturity
Bristlefrost's story was just so tragic in comparison though. Like, imagine you spend basically your whole life carrying ThunderClan around on your back constantly stressed out that you're going to get caught, you get dumped and some little weirdo you saved like 2 weeks ago makes his entire personality about you for his first 2 books, and then you just straight up disappear and get absolutely 0 saving grace at all 💀
I loved Rootspring for his dynamic with Tree and I would love to see more of his newfound somber maturity in A Starless Clan, but it's all just kind of funny looking back on it and remembering how hard Bristlefrost got screwed over. Never has there been a more depressing yet incredibly ridiculous pairing in the entirety of the series LOL
1:21 crowfeather and feather tail was an canon ship as we get notice from storm fur trying to ask why she loves crowfeather or at the time crow paw. Not to mention we have lots of other ones that aren’t exactly like canon… if that make sense. Anther canon one we approach is brook where small fish swim and stormfur.
Okay, so let me just say thank you. I'm the Spottedstorm from the rant you open with and even though it's not there long (and I likely should revisit and fix it up some time now that more forbidden romance has since popped up), I'm so happy to be seen by the community!
Oh wow, seriously? What a coincidence! I'm glad you found my channel ❤️
@@Hawkkz me too! I like what I've seen so far! Keep it up! ❤️
I just like to think that we’re only seeing the characters who are doing the forbidden romances and when you have a bunch of members of a clan you’re more likely to have more people doing it 🤣
In my Warriors series I have a few forbidden romance couples. One of them is a medicine cat and warrior. The second is a WildClan cat and ShadowClan cat who both ended up living together in WildClan. The last is a kittypet and warrior falling in love.
I don’t use it as a cliche, but rather as an arc. Plus I don’t overuse this concept either. I use it in a way to make my characters enjoyable and alive. A way to bring them right off the pages and into one's mind.
Every time there is a forbidden romance in these books my skeleton leaves my body and flies in circles around my room like a ceiling fan.
AWHHH YEAH!!! New hawkkz video!! This one looks Insane in terms of editing; I love the style!! (Only my 100th time saying that). And I totally agree-to an extent. I think most Forbids could be written MUCH better, and maybe just the bad writing is the reason people don’t like it. Although yes there is WAY too much forbids, I think the erins could help it out by atleast putting effort into it. Honestly, romance in Warriors generally sucks and is just really never enjoyable. I never go “awhhh!!! How cute!” It’s more of “ugh. This again?” Because WE NEED A STORY WITHOUT ROMANCE!!!
Yknow what? How about romance in general is just forgotten about in Warriors because they really aren’t that great at it. All I do is scoff and roll my eyes at it.
Edit: forgot to ask, what do you edit with? Good video as always!!
Aw, thanks! I use DaVinci Resolve to edit my videos: it's free and the closest thing to Adobe Premiere/After Effects (which I had classes on), but I'm almost entirely self-taught!
With the code being changed in the starless clan arc where cats can switch clans I don't think that forbidden romances would have to happen all that much anymore.
8:22
"And so long as they continue to celebrate mediocrity..."
Is that an Incredibles reference I hear?
uh probably more so accidental than on purpose LOL - do you know what exactly I would be referencing??
I think there are times when forbidden love is done well however I wish they would write a story in which cross clan relationships aren’t looked down and borders aren’t as strict through changes to the code.
I’m not against more of it but I think we’ve gotten a lot of to where we can get less of it or something different
Hopefully we'll finally get some of that in A Starless Clan: I'd be looking forward to it! Thanks for the comment ❤️
Tbh if many of these 'forbidden' romances didn't involve ThunderClan cats mainly and if ThunderClan wasn't always the main focus, it wouldn't be as worn out but I agree, forbidden romance in Warriors is wearing thin by now. The last 'forbidden romance' i was interested in was Lionblaze and Heathertail(??) but that ended before it could really take off and not to mentoin it was mostly overshadowed by how the Erins mishandled Hollyleaf and the Power of Three.
Yknow, the cats have to mate outside their clan often, otherwise the gene pool will get way too small
Scientifically that is true but they are mainly thinking story-wise otherwise I completely agree!
Just found your videos and I love it. A good warriors analysis channel without all the exaggeration. Bristlefrost and Rootspring is still the best one, though, in my opinion. Despite being a run down trope, I found their dynamic to be really sweet, and surprisingly dark at the end. However, I can agree that their relationship development felt? Inconsistent?
My least favorite? Greystripe and Millie. Because nobody likes her.
Aw, thank you so much! I absolutely agree. It makes me feel really bad for Bristlefrost, but I think it was worth it for them to finally show that they're capable of writing tragedy like that into the books. The permanency of it was a step in the right direction for the series for sure.
I completely agree with your opinion ; the autors are starting to repeat themselves with so many forbidden romances and that makes the books ( in which forbbiden love is found ) slightly boring , in my opinion . (Also u are extremely underrated ur videos are really good)
Thank you so much! ❤️
for moth and micah, the forbidden romance rule wasn't in the warrior code yet, it was added there after moth flight had kits and also the rule medicine cats cant have kits was added
It’s almost like they don’t know how to make relationships interesting without them being forbidden
Jayfeather x halfmoon was so incredibly pointless it continues to annoy me to this day. Like, Jay spent THREE DAYS in the vague proximity of halfmoon while pretending to be someone else and the Erin’s decided “Romance!”
we have more forbidden relationships than healthy, 'normal' relationships
id much rather have a slow burn friends to lovers healthy relationship than yet another 'fell in love at first sight' romeo and juliet shit
Oh yes the classic twilight forbidden teen romance: Cat edition.
Graystripe and Crowfeather really live this trope huh
I think you make a good point about what forbidden love does for warriors and I can understand and agree with some points you made. GrayxSilver wasn’t a bad couple and in fact was an interesting twist to warriors. BristlexRoot I didn’t understand the hate until now which I can understand how the cliche ruins the relationship (which I feel like ALITM did appropriately display the outcome for this). However, I personally disagree with GrayxMillie because I don’t see it as a forbidden couple because they were both kittypets and rejoined ThunderClan together (in all honestly I think this couple is good because it displays less of fandom needs and more of a realistic touch of opening yourself up to other people and giving a second chance at happiness which I think was very well executed). But that’s just my opinion. I personally don’t mind forbidden love but I do see how cliche it can affect the plot. And I personally don’t really want nightxsun to end up together (not that I hate it but mostly because it’s hard to see this ship as anything but a BristlexRoot remake). But that’s just my opinion but great video tho.
Thank you so much! Don't worry about the Graystripe and Millie thing lmao. I barely count that as a forbidden ship (nor do I honestly dislike it either specifically because of the manga), but it was, like, GENUINELY the only official art I could find of characters showing affection towards each other LOL. I apologize.
@@Hawkkz hehe no worries I understand.
@@Hawkkz honestly I don’t mind forbidden romance in some aspects but if it is use for the primary aspect is just for plot devices then I could lose respect for it.
There are so many other types of other romance tropes that the Erin’s could do. How about enemies to lovers, best friends, competitors turned lovers there are so many more romance tropes and I’m just frustrated there not doing any of them
Man why don’t they have a main character who just NEVER gets a mate? Cut the romance subplot. Mateless MC!
(I may or may not just want more AroAce rep but shhhh. Don’t tell anyone.)
I’d like an MC that shows how they can be a good parent to adoptive kids.
@@weallstilldie Yes!!
@@M4t_P4tGT we have Graywing, obviously, but maybe we could get a passage or two with the writers basically saying that being an adopted child doesn't make you any less of a child to your adoptive parent just because they don't share blood. If feel like a huge part of Warriors is that "blood doesn't tie you down, loyalty does." with Firestar's whole first arc, but that is thrown out the window when regressive ideas like "you're not the parent's true child if you're adopted" become endangered because of "blood doesn't tie you down, loyalty does."
so the writers make sure that the readers get the picture that they think adopted children aren't the real children of their parents, and don't count as much as a biological child would. It's gross.
Wasn’t the warrior code founded BECAUSE of a forbidden relationship? Lol
I think the forbidden romance plot was done okay in the original arc, since it contributed to character growth by them having to make tough decisions, but after that it becomes predictable like you said
This is exactly why i always go back to the first series and appreciate the fair amount of actual forbidden and how they actually tied well, as nowadays most forbidden relations just feel the same and ovverated.
The forbidden romance trope in warrior cats is so annoying now to the point where i feel as if the authors dont care in quality of relationships, especially when they throw off the plot. The cliche is so bad, it just destroys the whole point of the books.
Amazing script & amazing video overall. Glad someone finally talked about this
I agree. Erin's- stop-
In my OC story I only have one forbidden relationship and thats it. I dont need them. >:(
I love forbidden romance but I totally get these points, super true
Man idk, it's used A LOT yes, but tbh I'm not tired of it. Idk how I do it, and that doesn't mean some couples aren't badly written because there certainly are!!
I get that people get tired of the same trope over and over, and yes it's lazy, but it doesn't mean I won't enjoy the drama that comes out of it tho lol
And great video btw!! Loved it tho I don't agree! You're feeding us with good content my man keep going :)
If they got with the story of”Nightheart leaves ThunderClan” I want it to be because he realizes he’s never escape Firestar’s shadow if he doesn’t leave ThunderClan. And I don’t want him to join ShadowClan or SkyClan. I want him to try running away from Clan life entirely after Sorrelstripe’s death, but is found by Breezepelt who sees a lot of his younger self in Nightheart and convinces him to join WindClan, promising to give him the support he needs to make his own legacy. When Nightheart passes a near impossible challenge to join, Breezepelt explains his past and how he knows the pain and loneliness Nighthearts feels, promising to be a father figure to him. Nightheart is then adopted by Breezepelt’s daughters as a brother and eventually falls in love with one of them (I personally like the idea of it being Appleshine because she seems sweet and kind). ThunderClan tries to force him to come back, Sparkpelt and Finchlight say nasty things before publicly disowning him after an argument at a gathering where Breezepelt and his daughters defend Nightheart.
Also, when his new warrior name is introduced to the next gathering, I want either Squirrelflight, Sparkpelt, or Finchlight to say something snarky about him refusing to be named Flameheart after Firestar’s warrior name and the bulk of ThunderClan agreeing with them, then Breezepelt ask why Nightheart specifically has to carry on Firestar’s legacy when Lionblaze, Jayfeather, Cloudtail, and Cloudtail, Squirrelflight, and Lionblaze’s kin are also related to him but don’t have the same burden. Maybe even have Jayfeather- who supports Nightheart- throw in a sarcastic “because we aren’t PuRe ThUnDeRClAn ToMs who chose to be warriors, like Nightheart.” I want to see cats from another Clan- one that doesn’t put so much emphasis on legacy- stand up for Nightheart.
And my reason for it being WindClan isn’t just Breezepelt and my ship. We already have main protagonists in RiverClan and ShadowClan, so we don’t need another on there. And I feel like given what Firestar did in reviving SkyClan, they may also put pressure on Nightheart to live up to his legacy. He IS the great grandson of the reason why most of them even exist, after all. If it weren’t for those reasons, there could be a cat in any of the other Clans that could take a positive parental role for Nightheart. Tawnypelt would definitely understand living in the shadow of another cat. Violet shine would understand being made to feel like you don’t belong by your own Clan. And I’m sure they could give a RiverClan warrior a backstory to make them feel empathy for Nightheart’s situation, especially Harelight, Mothwing, and Icewing after being exiled in the last arc. WindClan doesn’t have a protagonist or a strong connection to Firestar. But but they do have Breezepelt, who understands growing up fatherless (Crowfeather not being present in his youth), being treated differently for the actions of another (what he told Jayfeather at the Moonpool in The Fourth Apprentice makes it seem like his Clanmates did this to him after the reveal of Jayfeather, LionBlaze, and Hollyleaf’s true parentage), and he knows what it’s like to feel so unwanted by your Clan that you have to act out for any kind of acknowledgment (the way Tornear described his behavior in The Sight sounds more like he was acting out for attention, not just being overly aggressive, and that need for attention and willingness to do anything to get it was what caused him to become an easy victim for the Dark Forest cats). I feel like Breezepelt would best understand him and being a father, especially after just losing one of his daughters, he would feel the parental urge to guide him so he doesn’t go down the same path of self destruction he (Breezepelt) had. By offering him a family to love and support him for who he is would also help both of them. Breezepelt is probably heavily grieving Smokehaze’s death. He probably blames himself more than anyone else for letting her join the rebels. He would definitely need to acknowledge he isn’t trying to replace his deceased daughter by taking in Nightheart, but would also need to make it clear that his intentions DO have some slight selfishness to them. Nightheart needs someone to acknowledge who HE is and what HE has to offer and Breezepelt might need a distraction to help him work though this grief or someone he feels could listen to him talk about his thoughts without judgement. They can help each other find what they need to feel free.
i think tigerheart and dovewing's entire existence angered me more than thistleclaw's attitude did. and don't get me started on how much i brutally hated thistleclaw.
I like forbidden love it makes up drama and you see more of the characters personality sure they won’t know which clan to live in but still I like it you can’t change my mind about it
Yes, it caused a lot of problems. But it also added a lit of drama and spice to the books. I agree there's a lot, but without them there wouldn't be many main cats in the books; We wouldn't have:
**small spoilers**
Feathertail or stormfur
Mistytar or stonefur
Brokenstar/tail
Blossomfall, bumblestripe, or briarlight
Shadowsight, lightleap, or pouncestep
Mapleshade's life to being evil (and she was with oakheart, appledusk was the she can't he left her for)
Darktail's menace to the clans.
Forbidden love might work if it was clan members & and kitty pets since many despise kitty pets as the week links of cats unless they truly deemed themselves strong.
Silver and Grey will always be the most iconic
the close-knit small clans mean that at any given moment, a warrior can pretty much only choose to mate with their relative or a child. forbidden relationships fixes that problem, so i'm not surprised about how common they are.
The only forbidden relationship that I thought was good in warriors was bluestar because there was genuine sacrifice and heartache bluestar had to go through in giving her kits away and that pain was a burden she had to carry all her life as leader.Characters like graystripe,leafpool,and dovewing are just not as compelling with their relationships because they’re just outright selfish with how they go about it.Graystripe kills silverstream by having her children and soon after leaves riverclan even though he said he would stay for his kits, leafpool outright manipulates her sister into covering for her and even yellowfang helps her do it which REALLY makes me mad.And then dovewing just gets with tigerheart for God knows why because she’s dovewing and she can just do whatever tf she wants.Even the temporary relationship between lionblaze and heathertail brings out the nasty side of him when he refuses twice to bring medicine for dying thunderclan just because he doesn’t wanna run into her.
He outright has dreams of killing her!
Yes I’m at the beginning but I wanna say yellowfang and raggedstar wasn’t truely forbidden they didn’t continue their relationship after yellow’fang became a medicine cat from what I remember. I may be wrong since I haven’t read the book in quite some time. Yellowfang still lived raggedstar but didn’t continue the relationship. Again I may be wrong haven’t read the book in a bit-
She did have kits. It's technically forbidden. You could also just argue that it basically wasn't forbidden as it was (as I see it) just an excuse to give Brokenstar a sad backstory. Oh crap I just wrote an essay for a comment made a month ago-
Everything you say is right. My head has been screaming at the Erin Hunter team to just stop with the forbidden relationships. They're so annoying. Silverstream and Graystripe was interesting, but they just kept going on and on, and now I hate Silverstream x Graystripe.
Lionpaw had so many choices, cats that weren´t related to him, and he chose a windclan she cat who later grows to be the most anoying little-
you can argue Jayfeather x Halfmoon is not a forbidden romance. For all intends and purposes, during the time itself that these events technically happned in the story: Jay's Wing wasnt a medicine cat/the med cat code didnt even exist yet and he and Halfmoon where from the same "clan".
You forgot minnowtail x mousewhisker Reedfeather x fallowtail Squrrielwhisker and eaglestorm cloud/berry and rye whisker hal x featherstorm nettle x yarrowleaf beechfur gorsetail and I guess stormfur and Brook? ( I’m not counting the new ones in the new book)
I thought minnowtail and mousewhisker was just dark forest clanmates
Referring to the ship list, there’s also Fallowtail and Reedfeather from Crookedstar’s promise
old video but theres actually 15 forbidden romances in the whole books, in one of the guides, into the clans, theres a cat named ryewhisker from windclan who has a mate in riverclan, cloudberry
Reedfeather and followtail, cloudberry and ryewhisker, Featherstorm and hal, beechfur and gorsetail, and if I wasn't exhausted I could think of more
The only way they can breathe life into the forbidden romance trope is to do a m/m or w/w ship which when speaking in terms of canon, has NEVER been explored before. Yes, I know there's Tallstar and Jake or Barely and Ravenpaw but when you get down to it, they were never truly confirmed in story. A gay romance where the characters are wondering of what they're doing is "right" would be interesting to read but knowing The Erins, they would fuck it up.
If you were to gather all of the cats in the books in a forbidden relationship, I think you'd have most of the cats. Mousewhisker and Minnowtail were pretty obvious. But the chances that there are super-secretive ships that aren't noted are high. Heck, Brackenfur and Grassheart could have been a couple (no i dont ship them)
It's ok in my opinion and it makes the books sort of spicy and I love it and interesting and what's a book without some rule breaking
There is also Fallowtail and reedfeather from crookedstar's promise, spireclaw and fringewhisker, sorrelstripe and birch from ASC
If the fandom is still around, warrior cats will never fail. You must understand that.
I know a lot of people hate the forbidden relationships but they are honestly one of my favorites
I am not a part of this community and have no idea what warrior cats is even about or how the fuck I got here but good video
run while you can trust me
Fr tho.. it’s such a buzzkill, and quite frankly the fact it was part of the warrior code that it was illegal to do this for literal years (in book time, if not longer) when multiple other cats (literally ones of power, bluestar, onestar, um.. can’t think of more but u get the point lol) like.. whyyyyyy wasn’t it glaringly obvious maybe just maybe that rule should change yk? It’s just stupid LOL
Idea: instead of reusing the trope of forbidden love, use it for sibling love. Siblings that were torn from eachother at a young age and want nothing more than to just be best friends again. It’s literally a billion dollar idea. Because frozen.
Like seriously OMFG *STAHP*
if there was no forbidden romance no books would be here today-
Ah yes this trope, I personally wouldn't dislike it as much if they did a better job of writing(kinda biased cause my main warrior cats oc is in a "Forbidden Relationship") but that's besides the point, the point is that if the Warrior Cats "Story Team" wants to make an at least readable or better yet GOOD forbidden romance there are certain steps that need to be taken to do it
Step One: establish it as a one off thing(a side character pointing out that the character in question acts different around said cat but not force it or shoehorn it in)
Step Two: Have both characters have actually good development and personality
Step Three: have the cats possibly be side characters NOT main Characters they are BOUND to make romance somewhat of the plot and most of the best warrior cats couples aren't in the spotlight(Like brightheart and cloudtail)
Step Four: have the characters interact and have valid reasons to like each other and have them benefit from each other and bring out the best in one another
Step Five: Don't have a whole bunch of drama surrounding the relationship at this point the clans need to know forbidden relationships are bound to happen anyway because of how many there have been sure they don't have to agree with it but they shouldn't think it's taboo at this point besides it doesn't even matter since cats who have been in forbidden relationships like graystripe,leafpool,appledusk and bluestar have went to starclan
Step Six: Have both the characters not give a care what the clan thinks if the couple is truly happy together it shouldn't be an issue especially if they aren't hurting anyone they would both still be loyal to their respective clans but their love for each other will never burn out
In my opinion that's a way to write an acceptable forbbiden romance but what we have now is just....Yuck seriously it is really getting old it's the same formula every single time like Yikes XD
(Sorry for the rant if you read all of this then you get a cookie XD
Wow I mean, yeah. Literally all of that: yeah. That's the 6 steps to success LOL
They should hire you to draft these books: we need someone on the inside 😎
@Hawkkz OMG thank you that is a huge compliment! I'm glad you agree^^
Also trust me I would draft/Write the books if I could XD
I love your videos man keep up the great work you definitely gained a new subscriber!!^^
Ha- WAIT YOU ARENT KIDDING!? This is just stupid to me, I mean, really- forbidden loves are one of the reasons I love the books. I like drama! Action! If you dont like that, then YOU have a problem
Great video, thanks
Don't forget Windflight's parents
i liked cinderheart and lionblaze's relationship and how it gradually developed. it became really tiring to see forbiddem relationships time and time again. i feel like they could have saved forbidden love and it be really interesting if it was only a few times
Warrior cats hasn't ruined forbidden romance, YOU did *Points at the wall*
Hmm...I have mixed feelings about this.I think some of these ships were made solely to prevent incest (which is a hole the authors dug themselves into with how the Clans work) even if that is realistic for cats to begin with. I like a lot of the forbidden romances but I do wish the authors would show cats (mainly protagonists) falling in love with their Clanmates more since that's supposed to be the norm even though we see it wayyy less than we should with our protagonists. The protagonists are the windows of the story and allow us to see into the Clans. If it's against the code to fall in love with cats from other Clans, these protagonists need to show that themselves instead of constantly sticking out of their Clans like a sore thumb. It would be nice to see more protagonists fall in love with their Clanmates. I can literally mention how few protagonists fell in love with cats from their own Clans: Firestar, Squirrelflight, Brambleclaw, Lionblaze, Ivypool, Leopardstar, Crookedstar, Pinestar (wasn't properly even written smh), Leafstar, Tigerstar, and Hawkwing. Some cats I mentioned had both forbidden and non-forbidden romances as well which puts them in a...weird spot. Tigerstar and Lionblaze both had forbidden romances, for example.
The first two arcs tackled the issue well. Firestar saw a forbidden romance from afar and it was just as good and was even the most iconic ship in the series. However, there's the whole Spottedleaf thing but this served as a very important character flaw for him right up until his death. This arc was good at tackling the drama that happened with in-Clan relationships and simple crushes that had to be ignored for the sake of the code (Cinderpelt, for example). The second arc was good with this as well. Feathertail's death was impactful and necessary for Crowfeather's arc as well. Stormfur had a brief crush on Squirrelflight but it was very brief and he eventually fell for Brook while living in the Tribe. Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw slowly developed their relationship and the focus on them in this series was probably the best even if later books tainted them. Leafpool's arc was pivotal and necessary for the next series. After this, however, forbidden love becomes more manufactured and so does romance as a whole. Lionblaze's arc with Heathertail was pointless and I think was only made to show that he had anger issues in later books or something. Jayfeather's arc with Half Moon was half-ass and I think him falling for Briarlight would've been a better forbidden romance (him having to deal with that would've been more entertaining than most of the ones we got). Dovewing X Tigerheart is there for the sake of being there. It's a mess.
We should also remember how the first two arcs portrayed Ferncloud X Dustpelt, Cloudtail X Brightheart, and Sorreltail X Brackenfur. They were healthy in-Clan relationships that were written well even for background characters. It's a shame that they stopped even writing them out properly and just mention that "character 1 had character 2's kits" without showing them.
I honestly liked Leafpool and Crowfeather. My second is Bristlefrost and Rootspring. Yes, they get annoying but personally I like those ones.
I immediately agreed with your title
I personally Moth Flight and Micah CANNOT be a forbidden relationship. Moth Flight had not yet banned medicine cats not having kits (she banned it because she bore Micah's kits), the warrior code wasn't a thing yet, therefore half-clan relationships and medicine cats having kits was not prohibited yet. Therefore, it wasn't illegal. (In Warriors)
Idk personally I’ve always enjoyed the forbidden relationships, when it was forbidden, that is.
I never really hated forbidden love. but, however, I wish they developed more coupled in the clan. brambleclaw and squirrelflight started off good as that, but nope, ruined. and if they really wanna do couples from different clans it shouldn’t be forbidden. sometimes i just think forbidden love is used to fill up spaces that need conflict, but its not necessary. warriors has proved many times that there is more conflict than forbidden relationships, such as the dark forest (oots), possession and manipulation which i absolutely love (tbc), murder misteries (like Ashfur’s, and the recent Curlfeather) tiranny, and way way more. i wish they would use more of that instead because there is still much to it.
as someone who never got that far i the books (I didn't even finish book two of the first series) I know my voice on the matter is very limited. But what I can say about it is this: I feel like they use "Forbidden love" a lot in these books because of one major thing that, looking back, semi-explains why they use it so much. how it test the character's in said relationship's bonds with there perspective clans. A good example is Graystripe and Silverstream's relationship. We see, from the tvunderclan perspective, how it tears Graystripe and Fireheart apart. Basically turning the two cats that were basically brother for most of the book(s) into almost enemies. Now am I say this is a excuse for this basically becoming the biggest trope in the series next to continuity issues? hELL NO!!! It IS a problem, a major one at that, which for many ruins certain characters and doesn't give others the time sun they so deserve. But, as I've learned from my brief time on this world, perfection is a goal that will never be reached, not even by God. Some of us will just grit our teeth and bear it, others might not do so and instead find something they love. Ether way...there really isn't anything we can do to change it.
Lets be real, the forbidden romance plotline is dryer than a desert.
When your favorite series uses something way to much for the entire series.
WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIIIIIIIS LOL
I hate the title because I love the rootxbristle and grayxsilver
I like both of them! I just dislike forbidden romance for how cliche it makes the stories and how it can sometimes feel forced.
@@Hawkkz That is fair
Tbh those ships are decent but some forbidden romances were just…💀. One that made me really cringe was Heathertail and Lionblaze.
@@puppydogs68 Agreed
@@Hawkkz Wait you like Bristle×Root? I thought it was your least favorite
I'm late. I'm a strange soul who manages to ship practically only cannon and implied. I'm here to say that the only dramatic forbidden romance I can see going smooth right now is a sisters' descendant and a dead person.
I love forbidden love, but there's just to much of them
I miss FireStar and SpottedLeaf, they would be a cute couple (I know she’s much older, but the books didn’t said that and represented her as “a Young and beautiful she cat” so that’s how I imagine her, as a young and beautiful cat), but yeah I imagine an universe were they were able to have kits because the warrior code didn’t hated the she cats, and they had a happy ending…
That's what I get for asking Google dumb question
I Googled (forbidden cat)
Only forbidden ones I’m open to is Tigerdove, Silvergrey, Blueoak, Leafcrow and Feathercrow some can be okay for me though but Bristleroot took it a little to far for me because we got so much of it that I got kinda sick of it, don’t get me wrong Light in the mist was spectacular for ruining their ”happy ending” but I feel Bristles feelings were a bit rushed I mean considering the books before she only thought of him as this apprentice who was head over heels for her, following her around like a lost puppy to suddenly being like “sure I’ll date him since he’s my only last escort” and she doesn’t even seem sure about her feelings, I still like the ship but it’s a bit rushed, and don’t even get me started on Sky… ( I got it early but theirs a particular ship that’s gonna throw people off ) Also if they make Minnowmouse canon I’d be so surprised and so happy because it’s cool to have “oh this was canon and you somewhat knew about it!”
Oh I also thing Mapledusk works too yk because D R A M A and not your typical drama no no no like actual DRAMA