thanks to the control simplifications, pikmin 4 feels less like commanding an army and more like firing seeking ballistic pikmissiles from my all-terrain oatchimobile
Why doesn’t modern Pikmin let me use way to many Pikmin to carry an item? I want 100 Pikmin carrying my citrus lump, I don’t care how impractical it is!
for all the dandori talk in 4 the choice to have more pikmin carrying an item was an important one it rewarded knowledge of the required amount of pikmin with faster carrying speed
Agreed. Sometimes I just want the speed that comes with adding more Pikmin to an object. Pikmin 4's refusal to do so in many cases is very annoying. It's made even more annoying because this flawed system, coupled with the fact that objects now collide while being carried, creates massive traffic jams where you have one object being carried slowly in front that's blocking 5 other objects from moving quickly. Pikmin 2 didn't have this issue. Objects could go through each just fine while being carried, meaning no traffic jams.
The charge mechanic is a straight upgrade from swarm, but it is true that that's exactly what they did with the Pikmin 3 Deluxe port. Pikmin 3's original controls were literally perfect, and then despite having the same exact set of buttons, they completely butchered it on switch.
The reason line-up trumpet is so fucked up compared to proper swarming is because they changed the Pikmin crowd movement in 4. In older games (even 3, which didn't have swarming), your Pikmin moved as individuals in a swarming mass, where they had designated spots in formation, but they couldn't just teleport to their spots whenever you turned around. Whenever you moved your captain, there was a delay as the Pikmin tried to reorganize and get to where they're supposed to be standing. It's like how someone standing in the middle of a spinning disc isn't moving as fast as someone on the edge of the disc, so the Pikmin near the edges of the formation take longer to get in position, which makes them look like a disorganized mess. In Pikmin 4, your Pikmin snap into place basically instantly every time you turn around. They move like a UI feature rather than an army of NPCs. It's basically like the reverse of how the cursor is always where your captain is facing. The Pikmin are always exactly behind the captain. In order to make that possible, they made it so the Pikmin break their normal movement speed caps when they're in your captain's control. Of course, since the trumpet is a buggy, half-assed piece of shit, they didn't account for it at all with the new Pikmin movement, so the Pikmin will keep jittering and trying to snap into weird positions.
Man, it’s like they were trying to address complaints by players who didn’t like managing large crowds, forgetting that their very game is in fact about managing large crowds.
It's doubly frustrating because in 4 you can make traffic jams where you have one object being carried slowly in front that's blocking 5 other objects from moving quickly. This wasn't an issue in Pikmin 2, as objects were allowed to go through each other while carried, so a fast moving object could pass a slow one.
Yeah, I feel like the devs really forgot why swarming is so good in older Pikmin games, or even the point of Pikmin in general. The entire point of Pikmin is controlling a crowd of lil guys to get them to do stuff while staying out of danger, but if you can just group everything onto Oatchi's back, you're not controlling a crowd, you're controlling a singular doggo.
The saddest part about the Lineup Trumpet is that a bunch of Raw Material has much more use than it. As for not being able to max out carry weights in Pikmin 4, it's an entire issue in the game. Once you hit the minimum carry weight, yep you're done. There's an awkward pause between filling out the minimum carry weight and adding more Pikmin onto the object, and when you try to do, you fail to max it out because the Pikmin carrying it are so fast that the last one often fails to catch up and trails behind. For as much as 4 embraces Dandori, they sure don't punish you for miscounting Pikmin on objects.
I can live with swarming being an endgame unlock in Pikmin 4, but being tied to the same button as the *Camera* is honestly the big deal breaker for me
The Pikmins refusal to max out objects was one of the most frustrating aspects of Pikmin 4 for sure. It almost feels like they wanted to take that option away from you which is weird because the game is happy to give you tons of options via unlocks and items.
I guess you could say swarming was... Left behind, Obliterated, Shafted, Terrorized, Mutilated, Eviscerated, Destroyed, Immolated, and ultimately Annihilated.
Actually the time limit is the best feature in Pikmin, according to Schaffrillas But fr, the fact that swarming was bought back (even if clunky) it could mean a potential actual good re-introduction.
I still remember encountering the Anode Beetles in the Blossoming Arcadia caves and excited to see them return (beating them is like popcorn for me), only to glance at pikipedia and realize those 7 beetles were the only ones in the entirety of Pikmin 4
Nintendo's attitude towards options is "WE think this is the optimal way to play, and so should you. No, we won't give you the options. We know what's best for you." It's a miracle that they ever even added a camera inverting option to Mario 3D Allstars. They sure didn't add one to the Pikmin 1+2 Switch ports.
Sadly Nintendo seems so have a "if it isn't broken, fix it" when it comes to some design choices in some of their franchises. It was like when they didn't add free camera control in Skyward Sword, despite Wind Waker and Twilight Princess had one.
@@kazoorion7993 to be fair, what would you bind it to in Skyward Sword? The Wiimote is so button-sparse that it seems like a "we only have one stick" issue rather than a design issue.
Yeah it’s really weird how not only did they basically replace swarming with charging but they made it so charging doesn’t max out the carries on treasures or fruits and you often have to charge multiple times to get more on them which defeats the entire purpose of it being a feature for speed….
I think the reason that swarming was removed is that many new players just didn't use the feature. When Pikmin 1+2 came out for Switch there were a lot of clips of people losing lots of Pikmin (or other swarming-related hijinks...) to situations that would have been easily avoided or minimized with swarming (like all those falling bomb-rocks that are often subject to complaint, even though they can be easily avoided by swarming into a corner). My guess is that the first impression newbies get from seeing swarming is that it doesn't *intuitively* seem like it's useful for anything and continue through the game after forgetting that the feature exists, which I think Nintendo might have noticed and decided to replace it with something new and more direct. For veteran players who played through the games multiple times it's easy for us to see it as a core feature that heavily enhances the gameplay, but it's massive potential is not clearly presented to new players in the tutorials.
I suspect swarming wasn't in Pikmin 3 because it was originally developed for the Wii. Which, as you said yourself, made the mechanic nigh impossible to use. They likely didn't want to scrap everything they'd worked on already, so they just went with it.
I've been subbed to this guy for about a half year and I gotta say, these are high quality Pikmin videos weekly, I enjoy watching his videos, he makes good stuff. 👍
i love how mr im just showed up and started making pikmin videos mr only's channel was made on the date of his first video, which was about pikmin i dont know who mr here is, but he really is only here for pikmin mr for just appeared and started making pikmin videos, and hey, im not complaining, i too like pikmin if you read this, mr pikmin, make a video about rock pikmin please
Man I if had to say what I love about Pikmin, I'd say Pikmin 1, 2, 3 and 4. Man I would buy a Pikmin body pillow if I had the money. Boy do I love Pikmin.
I stumbled upon your videos a few days ago and you're easily the best pikmin channel out there. Binged all of your vids and eagerly awaiting your next one!!! 🥺
C-stick throwing DOES exist in pikmin 2, it's just so niche that nobody ever notices. Best way to notice that distance to the captain matters is trying to throw a bunch of purple leaf pikmin after obtaining the rush boots. If you play pikmin 2 ROM hacks like Pikmin 251 or Pikmin 2: New Year where purples come late in the game, you have to learn to use c-stick throwing to get 1 cycles on most regular enemies 😊
Ironically, the charge became even more broken, specially when using Rock Pikmin as unlike the Winged ones, they didnt' got nerfed (beyond now being flattened by solid surfaces)
Between pikmin 2 and 4 the little guys had 13 pounds of crack and 21 Red Bull monster hybrids and now swarm and jitter around at the speed of light, it’s honestly hilarious to look at
My guess as to why they did this is that nobody on the team knew how to program the Pikmin's boid movement anymore. That's what happened to the chao garden from Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. It was so complex that nobody knew how to make it anymore.
I've never gotten the hype around swarming personally, and this is coming from a Pikmin veteran. Not to say that I don't like it or enjoy it in itself, but looking back on it, it often felt like it was meant to monkey-patch certain limitations the older games had rather than be a very useful mechanic, despite how intuitive it seems to be. Let's start with how it patches things in the games, for one, movement is the main one, from getting Pikmin accross bridges safely to dodging a few attacks here and there, to commanding Pikmin atop ledges, these are the main uses of swarming in Pikmin 1, movement was fixed with the improvement of AI, and dodging has been addressed in very different ways, still, I can only recall very few attacks or things to dodge in the first 2 games that required swarming for evasion. I would also argue that in the case of dodging, swarming can actually be the less effective option, this being that if you are moving through enemies like the clip that starts at 2:26, where you would really only need to actively dodge and swarm around the enemies if you were swarming in your way to your destination in the first place. Let me explain. All enemies and obstacles there are harmless to the captain and white Pikmin unless they actively attack (in the case of the enemies), but with how fast you and whites are, this is a non-issue, that is, unless they get stuck or get distracted, something that wouldn't happen if you didn't swarm, now, this is ok in this instance since you are dodging everything ok, but in the off case a Pikmin would latch onto an enemy because you are actively swarming, you'd need to whistle it back and regroup. The better alternative would be to simply move among the enemies in a straight line without swarming, not only would you be cutting all those corners you would have to make otherwise, but requires less inputs, is safer and is more consistent with also having less chances for your Pikmin to trip. I know there could be cases where Anode beetles and such could pose a treat to your Pikmin, but you can quickly adapt to those and just use swarming when absolutely necessary. Finally, puzzles atop ledges have remained and evolved, they are also very easy and simple, barely registering as puzzles in the first place. Second is combat, which yeah, I'd say is where it shines the best, but my issue with it is that it is often too inconsistent, I don't know if it's the mechanic itself or how the enemies hitboxes work, but I could have very different results seemingly for no reason, if I want to deal with an enemy quickly, I'd have to bring even more Pikmin to a fight in hopes more of them latched on quicker and dealt enough damage before they were shaken off. Not a bad mechanic, but I feel the "problem" with Charging in the other hand is way too consistent. With the example of the Bulborb, in Pikmin 1, Pikmin would not properly latch to the back of Bulborb consistently, while in 3, they would. By the way, I don't think the comparison between swarming and charging is quite fair, aside from the differences in consistency, the health of a Bulborb is higher in Pikmin 1, than in 3 and it does match the testing I did myself. Related to combat, the thing with throwing faster in Pikmin 1 while using the c-stick was a bit of an unintended mechanic, the way that it works is that Pikmin can be thrown in relation to how close they are to Olimar, thus keeping them close with swarming would maximize this, but again, it had less to do with the mechanic of swarming itself and more with how throwing was handled, a bit of a cool interaction and mechanic, but again, unintended and not really a "plus" in favor of swarming, at least in my eyes. Finally, there's the topic of carrying stuff, this was probably the most useful function of the feature, but I also feel more modern games have "fixed" this to a certain amount, and that's not by tinkering with the feature itself, but rather the weight of collectibles. Not to mention, I find charging and throwing much better if it's to either get an exact amount of Pikmin onto a collectible, max the number of Pikmin on it, or collect multiple collectibles that are close together, most of the time, throwing will do the work just fine and in some cases be much better and exact, while charging is just faster and more convenient, (as you can easily get either the exact or max amounts easily), not to mention, charging also works wonders when there are multiple collectibles together. Forgot to add another, imo, better alternative to swarming and that's dismissing, that can also be quite good for getting tons of Pikmin to work on a task, even more so consistently than swarming. I also find it weird in the video how treasures seem to keep getting stuck while Pikmin are carrying them, but I fail to see how this is related to the swarming mechanic or how properly implementing it would fix this specific issue, it just seems it's an issue of path-finding rather than a result of another mechanic, more so because it's more of an "on-rails" thing, better movement options wouldn't fix these issues. A good example on where swarming would seem like a fun option just to toy around but actually fails is in that cave floor in Pikmin 2 with several dwarf red bulborbs, as it would a no brainer to swarm a big pile of them and see them all get collected in quick succession, preferably all of them, however, in practice, this is not the case, not only do more Pikmin are more prone to maxing out a single bulborb and end up wasting numbers, leading to not all carcasses being collected in a single go, not to mention the lack of overall control you had on the whole thing in terms of speed and consistency. I know this is a very silly and specific example, but I vividly remember trying this and being rather disappointed, so much so that later on, I'd bring just purples and throw them one by one to each one of the carcasses to maximize the rate of treasures being collected. It's a bit of a long rant/explanation, but I actually don't care nor mind much for swarming as the alternatives offered now work much better (perhaps too well... but that is a bit hard to judge) and while I do think the way you unlock "swarming" in 4 is a tad awful, I do think it's offset by two things, one, is that there are much better alternatives, and secondly, I don't think "Form Line" isn't exactly the same as "Swarming" as yeah, the former is way jankier and (even more) inconsistent, but also, if you pay attention on how Pikmin act when using the LUT, you can see them forming a line, I don't know what the intended use for this feature is supposed to be other than lining up Pikmin, but to me it doesn't sound like its supposed to be swarming, despite the nods and such.
to give pikmin 3 credit where due charging accounts for vertical distance, making winged and sometimes blue pikmin more versatile. in 4 this is a bit diminished but it's still there to some extent. i didn't use the swarm much in 4 for reasons highlighted in the video but it was insightful to see everything wrong with it. if it worked right it would have been very helpful to pick up lots of small objects at once as that happens a lot in that game
9:22 A small correction: Pikmin 4 uses ZL for swarming and for rotating the camera , while Pikmin 1+2 uses L for swarming and ZL for the camera. The reason why they changed it in 4 is that L is also used to switch Pikmin, so there were no buttons available and they didn't really have a choice but to make it overlap with ZL's camera rotation.
I think the main reason swarming was removed is because people came to associate left stick with movement and right stick with camera. Nintendo assumed they needed to follow this setup to bring in new players. Honestly though I would be so so happy to give up the camera controls on the right stick to get swarming back. Pikmin 1 & 2 stand a mile above 3 & 4 for me and the main reason is swarming.
@@noelthemighty I personally think it'd be better to give up the L button to switch Pikmin in favor of swarming. Idk about others but I rarely use it and usually just switch with R.
I don't understand how people think Pikmin 4 is the best game in the series when it has problems that it creates itself that no other Pikmin game has. This is an example of that, with the simplified controls and weaker level design accommodating that.
If I played pikmin 3 without watching this video I would have thought my controller was broken or my game was bugged. A pikmin game where you cannot freely move your pikmin? Wtf
4:39 the bug more so happens because in pikmin 3 and 4 if you charge at a object twice the game will only send the exact max quantity of pikmin to grab that object, and the others will just return to you, problem is that, if a pikmin is just trying to grab the item the game still doesn't let other pikmin also try to grab it, that is why when you throw them here they don't even try to grab the dwarf bulborb, and that's also why it's so fucking annoying too.
I knew a friend who said that the Swarming Mechanic always sucked and the Charge is a much better replacement. I was upset because I used to use the Swarming to position my pikmin better to avoid enemies and obstacles, they said you can do the exact same with Charging. Sometimes I wonder if we where even playing the same games
I feel like at some point it could be good to have a dedicated video or 2 going into why you like pikmin 3 and 4 or one of your favourite aspects of them. Sometimes the negativity for the newer games can feel a bit overpowering on this channel and could probably give newer viewers the idea that you dislike all the games not released on the gamecube which i know isnt the case. Just my personal thoughts/opinion anyway
I love how they had 1 mechanic in 1 game that was great, became less great in the next game then became something else and got rid of it entirely in the 3rd and 4 afterwards (which I’m not too upset about tbh but still)
the first pikmin game i played was p̶i̶k̶m̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶d̶v̶e̶n̶t̶u̶r̶e̶ Pikmin 3, & when i played pikmin 1 & 2 i absolutely loved the control that swarming gave you. All the pikmin games should have swarming omg
The c stick throw was the most useful thing in the game and they took that away from us. I miss where it took actual strategy then pikmin 4 assisting ruins it
I absolutely DESPISE how they redid swarming for the 1 and 2 Switch ports. Having a free camera is not NEARLY as important as moving your Pikmin wherever you want
I've played tons of pikmin 1 and 2 over the years, and decided to finally try out 3 deluxe for the first time. The lack of c stick maneuverability felt SO clunky, and made me feel like a noob who hadn't ever even played a pikmin game, for s sequel the controls felt so foreign and I haven't got the hang of it yet
If you asked me if I like swarming in 2004 I would answer with "what's that?" because strategies and lingo weren't as readily available as they are now. If you told me what it was though I would be like "yeah, best game mechanic."
Reason why I play pikmin 1 and 2 because it feels like I actually could mess up and have to restart but again 4 holds my hand all the way thru. It's just so sad
I just feel that swarming is more balanced and versatile than charging so I’m a bit annoyed they removed it, charging just kills enemies instantly and is less seamless to use, wish that the next game incorporates swarming
I theorize the reason it's a late game unlock is because it's hardly treated as a legitimate control option so much as an homage to the GameCube entries. Generally Pikmin 4 as a whole loves to ride on Pikmin 2's nostalgia coattails as the entire waterwraith cave among other inclusions would show. This isn't a legitimate attempt at including the swarming feature because the game is designed around the charging feature, which while not necessarily a bad control option in my opinion should not necessarily have permanently replaced this control method. In essence it's been reduced to an impractical reference meant to make long term fans pop off because it exists in a modern entry. Pikmin 4 makes me feel old whenever I prefer anything about the GCN games.
The longer Pikmin 4 is out the more I realize that they just don't understand what made Pikmin good. I don't want a dog that does everything for me and I don't want you to pick what pikmin I use. I feel like they are too scared to let us try and possibly even fail.
I think they should've given us the swarm in 4 in the beginning for free. And for most of the game we get used to it and then near the halfway point or near the end, give us the charge. (Too bad it doesn't control good though so mabey that's why it's unlocked at the end)
I actually don’t mind swarming was replaced with the charge attack in modern pikmin, but I’ll never forgive 4 for having the swarm whistle in the end game 😢
thanks to the control simplifications, pikmin 4 feels less like commanding an army and more like firing seeking ballistic pikmissiles from my all-terrain oatchimobile
this is the best comment ever
Lmao
Yes beacuse pik 1 and 2.didnt have the jankiest control thatnyou have ever seen
this made me burst, thank you
@@jaotrx7163 Only 1 was janky in regard of controls, 2 really fixed it.
"Society focuses on piking the min so much, that we often forget to let the min pik😔." - Jorge Funglebob
😦
AWWW HELL NEAAAW JORGE FUNGLEBOB DONE PICKED HIS MIEN?
Too much pik I forgot about the min
oh so were seriously going to give known serial murderer Jorge Funglebob publicity?
@@goobertgumnot to mention war crimes
Why doesn’t modern Pikmin let me use way to many Pikmin to carry an item? I want 100 Pikmin carrying my citrus lump, I don’t care how impractical it is!
for all the dandori talk in 4 the choice to have more pikmin carrying an item was an important one it rewarded knowledge of the required amount of pikmin with faster carrying speed
Agreed. Sometimes I just want the speed that comes with adding more Pikmin to an object. Pikmin 4's refusal to do so in many cases is very annoying. It's made even more annoying because this flawed system, coupled with the fact that objects now collide while being carried, creates massive traffic jams where you have one object being carried slowly in front that's blocking 5 other objects from moving quickly. Pikmin 2 didn't have this issue. Objects could go through each just fine while being carried, meaning no traffic jams.
Swarming got removed because Miyamoto knew it would be an overpowered strategy to avoid waking up to the Emperor Bulblax in Nintendo Alarmo
But he wasn’t even developing for the alarmo at the time😂
@@endlessgoofyahhmemes69He's been working on that game since 2015
"If it ain't broke, let's break it"
- Nintendo, probably
The charge mechanic is a straight upgrade from swarm, but it is true that that's exactly what they did with the Pikmin 3 Deluxe port. Pikmin 3's original controls were literally perfect, and then despite having the same exact set of buttons, they completely butchered it on switch.
I love how he just gave it on the "Lost media" gag
It became lost media
3:04
The reason line-up trumpet is so fucked up compared to proper swarming is because they changed the Pikmin crowd movement in 4. In older games (even 3, which didn't have swarming), your Pikmin moved as individuals in a swarming mass, where they had designated spots in formation, but they couldn't just teleport to their spots whenever you turned around. Whenever you moved your captain, there was a delay as the Pikmin tried to reorganize and get to where they're supposed to be standing. It's like how someone standing in the middle of a spinning disc isn't moving as fast as someone on the edge of the disc, so the Pikmin near the edges of the formation take longer to get in position, which makes them look like a disorganized mess.
In Pikmin 4, your Pikmin snap into place basically instantly every time you turn around. They move like a UI feature rather than an army of NPCs. It's basically like the reverse of how the cursor is always where your captain is facing. The Pikmin are always exactly behind the captain. In order to make that possible, they made it so the Pikmin break their normal movement speed caps when they're in your captain's control. Of course, since the trumpet is a buggy, half-assed piece of shit, they didn't account for it at all with the new Pikmin movement, so the Pikmin will keep jittering and trying to snap into weird positions.
Man, it’s like they were trying to address complaints by players who didn’t like managing large crowds, forgetting that their very game is in fact about managing large crowds.
Pikmin 4 just had something against putting max pikmin on objects. I just... I don't get why they hated the idea of maxed out items so much.
It's doubly frustrating because in 4 you can make traffic jams where you have one object being carried slowly in front that's blocking 5 other objects from moving quickly. This wasn't an issue in Pikmin 2, as objects were allowed to go through each other while carried, so a fast moving object could pass a slow one.
"NOOOO you can't put more pikmin on the on the treasure it's INEFFICIENT it's not DANDORI you have to use DANDORI you have to MULTITASK"
To me, Olimar's swarming jingle is THE music of the Pikmin franchise over and above all its other soundtracks.
Yeah, I feel like the devs really forgot why swarming is so good in older Pikmin games, or even the point of Pikmin in general. The entire point of Pikmin is controlling a crowd of lil guys to get them to do stuff while staying out of danger, but if you can just group everything onto Oatchi's back, you're not controlling a crowd, you're controlling a singular doggo.
The saddest part about the Lineup Trumpet is that a bunch of Raw Material has much more use than it.
As for not being able to max out carry weights in Pikmin 4, it's an entire issue in the game. Once you hit the minimum carry weight, yep you're done. There's an awkward pause between filling out the minimum carry weight and adding more Pikmin onto the object, and when you try to do, you fail to max it out because the Pikmin carrying it are so fast that the last one often fails to catch up and trails behind. For as much as 4 embraces Dandori, they sure don't punish you for miscounting Pikmin on objects.
I can live with swarming being an endgame unlock in Pikmin 4, but being tied to the same button as the *Camera* is honestly the big deal breaker for me
The Pikmins refusal to max out objects was one of the most frustrating aspects of Pikmin 4 for sure.
It almost feels like they wanted to take that option away from you which is weird because the game is happy to give you tons of options via unlocks and items.
I guess you could say swarming was...
Left behind, Obliterated, Shafted, Terrorized, Mutilated, Eviscerated, Destroyed, Immolated, and ultimately Annihilated.
And
Gone
@@blucatgamerzalso
Lost…
But found again in Pikmin 4 (kinda)
Keep this in the back of your mind
Actually the time limit is the best feature in Pikmin, according to Schaffrillas
But fr, the fact that swarming was bought back (even if clunky) it could mean a potential actual good re-introduction.
10:40 I mean there’s a lot about Pikmin 4 that feels tacked on for nostalgia purposes. Like to the point where it feels bloated.
I still remember encountering the Anode Beetles in the Blossoming Arcadia caves and excited to see them return (beating them is like popcorn for me), only to glance at pikipedia and realize those 7 beetles were the only ones in the entirety of Pikmin 4
Nostalgia bait is definitely something I felt.
Nintendo's attitude towards options is "WE think this is the optimal way to play, and so should you. No, we won't give you the options. We know what's best for you."
It's a miracle that they ever even added a camera inverting option to Mario 3D Allstars. They sure didn't add one to the Pikmin 1+2 Switch ports.
Sadly Nintendo seems so have a "if it isn't broken, fix it" when it comes to some design choices in some of their franchises.
It was like when they didn't add free camera control in Skyward Sword, despite Wind Waker and Twilight Princess had one.
@@kazoorion7993 to be fair, what would you bind it to in Skyward Sword? The Wiimote is so button-sparse that it seems like a "we only have one stick" issue rather than a design issue.
Here’s hoping the Pikmin Adventure video is a 4 hour documentary about every micro detail 👍
When the pikmin dont pikmin i just feel pikmin
C stick for Swarming > C stick for Camera
Forget swarming, we SWAGGING now
Yeah it’s really weird how not only did they basically replace swarming with charging but they made it so charging doesn’t max out the carries on treasures or fruits and you often have to charge multiple times to get more on them which defeats the entire purpose of it being a feature for speed….
Not really cause you can just spam it
"it just feels tacked on for nostalgia purposes"
thats pikmin 4 for you lol
love when nintendo just removes great features from games
I miss swarming so much
I think the reason that swarming was removed is that many new players just didn't use the feature. When Pikmin 1+2 came out for Switch there were a lot of clips of people losing lots of Pikmin (or other swarming-related hijinks...) to situations that would have been easily avoided or minimized with swarming (like all those falling bomb-rocks that are often subject to complaint, even though they can be easily avoided by swarming into a corner). My guess is that the first impression newbies get from seeing swarming is that it doesn't *intuitively* seem like it's useful for anything and continue through the game after forgetting that the feature exists, which I think Nintendo might have noticed and decided to replace it with something new and more direct. For veteran players who played through the games multiple times it's easy for us to see it as a core feature that heavily enhances the gameplay, but it's massive potential is not clearly presented to new players in the tutorials.
i love how utterly deadpan he is during the christmas present gag
My only note is that I like 1's falling during marching orders. Frequent tripping will never not be hilarious.
3:06 us maltigi lovers are eating good with this one
My #1 Pikmin youtuber. Your content is just the best.
I suspect swarming wasn't in Pikmin 3 because it was originally developed for the Wii. Which, as you said yourself, made the mechanic nigh impossible to use. They likely didn't want to scrap everything they'd worked on already, so they just went with it.
I've been subbed to this guy for about a half year and I gotta say, these are high quality Pikmin videos weekly, I enjoy watching his videos, he makes good stuff. 👍
3:01 the face of a man about to become...
LOST MEDIA!!!!!!!!
i love how mr im just showed up and started making pikmin videos
mr only's channel was made on the date of his first video, which was about pikmin
i dont know who mr here is, but he really is only here for pikmin
mr for just appeared and started making pikmin videos, and hey, im not complaining, i too like pikmin
if you read this, mr pikmin, make a video about rock pikmin please
I feel as if Pikmin 4 was rushed in a lot of aspects, which is incredibly disappointing considering we waited 10 YEARS for it.
Man I if had to say what I love about Pikmin, I'd say Pikmin 1, 2, 3 and 4. Man I would buy a Pikmin body pillow if I had the money. Boy do I love Pikmin.
I stumbled upon your videos a few days ago and you're easily the best pikmin channel out there. Binged all of your vids and eagerly awaiting your next one!!! 🥺
C-stick throwing DOES exist in pikmin 2, it's just so niche that nobody ever notices.
Best way to notice that distance to the captain matters is trying to throw a bunch of purple leaf pikmin after obtaining the rush boots.
If you play pikmin 2 ROM hacks like Pikmin 251 or Pikmin 2: New Year where purples come late in the game, you have to learn to use c-stick throwing to get 1 cycles on most regular enemies 😊
7:16 never excepted to see ongezellig mentioned in a Pikmin video out of all places lol
I like the ongezellig reference
Swarming was so fun fuck nintendo
Maybe swarming was removed because enemies got less difficult and items didn’t need as many pikmin to carry
Ironically, the charge became even more broken, specially when using Rock Pikmin as unlike the Winged ones, they didnt' got nerfed (beyond now being flattened by solid surfaces)
Between pikmin 2 and 4 the little guys had 13 pounds of crack and 21 Red Bull monster hybrids and now swarm and jitter around at the speed of light, it’s honestly hilarious to look at
Happy Halloween imonlyhereforpikmin!
The reason 3 removed swarming was probably because it would be a bit awkward with the new pikmin types. I think they could have made it work though.
Loved your video, I think the sense of Pikmin knowledge you know is great and the way you talk about random cool stuff is fun to listen to.
My guess as to why they did this is that nobody on the team knew how to program the Pikmin's boid movement anymore. That's what happened to the chao garden from Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. It was so complex that nobody knew how to make it anymore.
As a programmer, i am ashamed that they forgot to look at RUclips tutorials.
I've never gotten the hype around swarming personally, and this is coming from a Pikmin veteran. Not to say that I don't like it or enjoy it in itself, but looking back on it, it often felt like it was meant to monkey-patch certain limitations the older games had rather than be a very useful mechanic, despite how intuitive it seems to be.
Let's start with how it patches things in the games, for one, movement is the main one, from getting Pikmin accross bridges safely to dodging a few attacks here and there, to commanding Pikmin atop ledges, these are the main uses of swarming in Pikmin 1, movement was fixed with the improvement of AI, and dodging has been addressed in very different ways, still, I can only recall very few attacks or things to dodge in the first 2 games that required swarming for evasion. I would also argue that in the case of dodging, swarming can actually be the less effective option, this being that if you are moving through enemies like the clip that starts at 2:26, where you would really only need to actively dodge and swarm around the enemies if you were swarming in your way to your destination in the first place. Let me explain. All enemies and obstacles there are harmless to the captain and white Pikmin unless they actively attack (in the case of the enemies), but with how fast you and whites are, this is a non-issue, that is, unless they get stuck or get distracted, something that wouldn't happen if you didn't swarm, now, this is ok in this instance since you are dodging everything ok, but in the off case a Pikmin would latch onto an enemy because you are actively swarming, you'd need to whistle it back and regroup. The better alternative would be to simply move among the enemies in a straight line without swarming, not only would you be cutting all those corners you would have to make otherwise, but requires less inputs, is safer and is more consistent with also having less chances for your Pikmin to trip. I know there could be cases where Anode beetles and such could pose a treat to your Pikmin, but you can quickly adapt to those and just use swarming when absolutely necessary. Finally, puzzles atop ledges have remained and evolved, they are also very easy and simple, barely registering as puzzles in the first place.
Second is combat, which yeah, I'd say is where it shines the best, but my issue with it is that it is often too inconsistent, I don't know if it's the mechanic itself or how the enemies hitboxes work, but I could have very different results seemingly for no reason, if I want to deal with an enemy quickly, I'd have to bring even more Pikmin to a fight in hopes more of them latched on quicker and dealt enough damage before they were shaken off. Not a bad mechanic, but I feel the "problem" with Charging in the other hand is way too consistent. With the example of the Bulborb, in Pikmin 1, Pikmin would not properly latch to the back of Bulborb consistently, while in 3, they would. By the way, I don't think the comparison between swarming and charging is quite fair, aside from the differences in consistency, the health of a Bulborb is higher in Pikmin 1, than in 3 and it does match the testing I did myself. Related to combat, the thing with throwing faster in Pikmin 1 while using the c-stick was a bit of an unintended mechanic, the way that it works is that Pikmin can be thrown in relation to how close they are to Olimar, thus keeping them close with swarming would maximize this, but again, it had less to do with the mechanic of swarming itself and more with how throwing was handled, a bit of a cool interaction and mechanic, but again, unintended and not really a "plus" in favor of swarming, at least in my eyes.
Finally, there's the topic of carrying stuff, this was probably the most useful function of the feature, but I also feel more modern games have "fixed" this to a certain amount, and that's not by tinkering with the feature itself, but rather the weight of collectibles. Not to mention, I find charging and throwing much better if it's to either get an exact amount of Pikmin onto a collectible, max the number of Pikmin on it, or collect multiple collectibles that are close together, most of the time, throwing will do the work just fine and in some cases be much better and exact, while charging is just faster and more convenient, (as you can easily get either the exact or max amounts easily), not to mention, charging also works wonders when there are multiple collectibles together. Forgot to add another, imo, better alternative to swarming and that's dismissing, that can also be quite good for getting tons of Pikmin to work on a task, even more so consistently than swarming.
I also find it weird in the video how treasures seem to keep getting stuck while Pikmin are carrying them, but I fail to see how this is related to the swarming mechanic or how properly implementing it would fix this specific issue, it just seems it's an issue of path-finding rather than a result of another mechanic, more so because it's more of an "on-rails" thing, better movement options wouldn't fix these issues.
A good example on where swarming would seem like a fun option just to toy around but actually fails is in that cave floor in Pikmin 2 with several dwarf red bulborbs, as it would a no brainer to swarm a big pile of them and see them all get collected in quick succession, preferably all of them, however, in practice, this is not the case, not only do more Pikmin are more prone to maxing out a single bulborb and end up wasting numbers, leading to not all carcasses being collected in a single go, not to mention the lack of overall control you had on the whole thing in terms of speed and consistency. I know this is a very silly and specific example, but I vividly remember trying this and being rather disappointed, so much so that later on, I'd bring just purples and throw them one by one to each one of the carcasses to maximize the rate of treasures being collected.
It's a bit of a long rant/explanation, but I actually don't care nor mind much for swarming as the alternatives offered now work much better (perhaps too well... but that is a bit hard to judge) and while I do think the way you unlock "swarming" in 4 is a tad awful, I do think it's offset by two things, one, is that there are much better alternatives, and secondly, I don't think "Form Line" isn't exactly the same as "Swarming" as yeah, the former is way jankier and (even more) inconsistent, but also, if you pay attention on how Pikmin act when using the LUT, you can see them forming a line, I don't know what the intended use for this feature is supposed to be other than lining up Pikmin, but to me it doesn't sound like its supposed to be swarming, despite the nods and such.
In pikmin 3, swarming became LOST MEDIA
Swarming is a feature
Keep this in the back of your mind
I'm looking forward to Pikmin 5, where they will bring back perfect swarming but remove moving.
You might be 65 by the time that happens
7:14 Ongezellig mentioned
Zellig bros, we are soo back
zelligpedos lost
@@lemonzzztrvthnvke
makkers!
>Ong- ACKKKKK
to give pikmin 3 credit where due charging accounts for vertical distance, making winged and sometimes blue pikmin more versatile. in 4 this is a bit diminished but it's still there to some extent.
i didn't use the swarm much in 4 for reasons highlighted in the video but it was insightful to see everything wrong with it. if it worked right it would have been very helpful to pick up lots of small objects at once as that happens a lot in that game
the worst part of removing swarm is that it doesn't let me live out my dreams of pretending olimar is a snake charmer
9:22 A small correction: Pikmin 4 uses ZL for swarming and for rotating the camera , while Pikmin 1+2 uses L for swarming and ZL for the camera. The reason why they changed it in 4 is that L is also used to switch Pikmin, so there were no buttons available and they didn't really have a choice but to make it overlap with ZL's camera rotation.
I think the main reason swarming was removed is because people came to associate left stick with movement and right stick with camera. Nintendo assumed they needed to follow this setup to bring in new players.
Honestly though I would be so so happy to give up the camera controls on the right stick to get swarming back.
Pikmin 1 & 2 stand a mile above 3 & 4 for me and the main reason is swarming.
@@noelthemighty I personally think it'd be better to give up the L button to switch Pikmin in favor of swarming. Idk about others but I rarely use it and usually just switch with R.
@@gass19 yeah I'm only speaking for myself here. An alternative would be needed to accommodate for most people, though I doubt Nintendo will bother
If you connect a Gamecube controller to the Alarmo you can swarm the alarmo through your room
I don't understand how people think Pikmin 4 is the best game in the series when it has problems that it creates itself that no other Pikmin game has. This is an example of that, with the simplified controls and weaker level design accommodating that.
The way he says *swarming* is charged with implied violence
Hey now, blue pikmin underwear sounds amazing.
The gadaffi jokes are amazing
If I played pikmin 3 without watching this video I would have thought my controller was broken or my game was bugged.
A pikmin game where you cannot freely move your pikmin? Wtf
4:39 the bug more so happens because in pikmin 3 and 4 if you charge at a object twice the game will only send the exact max quantity of pikmin to grab that object, and the others will just return to you, problem is that, if a pikmin is just trying to grab the item the game still doesn't let other pikmin also try to grab it, that is why when you throw them here they don't even try to grab the dwarf bulborb, and that's also why it's so fucking annoying too.
I kind of wish Pikmin had a New Game + feature, the final builds feel so good in 4 especially compared to how sluggish starting the game is
Glad to see that I'm not the only one who prefers swarming over charging.
It's cool that pikmin is so historically accurate
I knew a friend who said that the Swarming Mechanic always sucked and the Charge is a much better replacement. I was upset because I used to use the Swarming to position my pikmin better to avoid enemies and obstacles, they said you can do the exact same with Charging. Sometimes I wonder if we where even playing the same games
I hope swarming will come back in Pikmin 5 but not as a post game thing but you can use it throughout the whole game
I feel like at some point it could be good to have a dedicated video or 2 going into why you like pikmin 3 and 4 or one of your favourite aspects of them.
Sometimes the negativity for the newer games can feel a bit overpowering on this channel and could probably give newer viewers the idea that you dislike all the games not released on the gamecube which i know isnt the case.
Just my personal thoughts/opinion anyway
Finally someone appreciates the beauty of swarming
Doing fine, per usual onlyhereforepikmin
I love how they had 1 mechanic in 1 game that was great, became less great in the next game then became something else and got rid of it entirely in the 3rd and 4 afterwards (which I’m not too upset about tbh but still)
A man once said "bring back swarm in pikmin form" something monkeys paw
Oh God that jingle is a core memory
the first pikmin game i played was p̶i̶k̶m̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶d̶v̶e̶n̶t̶u̶r̶e̶ Pikmin 3, & when i played pikmin 1 & 2 i absolutely loved the control that swarming gave you. All the pikmin games should have swarming omg
The c stick throw was the most useful thing in the game and they took that away from us. I miss where it took actual strategy then pikmin 4 assisting ruins it
I absolutely DESPISE how they redid swarming for the 1 and 2 Switch ports. Having a free camera is not NEARLY as important as moving your Pikmin wherever you want
That was a slick outro! I dig it.
I've played tons of pikmin 1 and 2 over the years, and decided to finally try out 3 deluxe for the first time. The lack of c stick maneuverability felt SO clunky, and made me feel like a noob who hadn't ever even played a pikmin game, for s sequel the controls felt so foreign and I haven't got the hang of it yet
If you asked me if I like swarming in 2004 I would answer with "what's that?" because strategies and lingo weren't as readily available as they are now.
If you told me what it was though I would be like "yeah, best game mechanic."
Doesn't Swarmthrowing still work in Pikmin 2? You throw a lot faster in there too if you swarm the Pikmin behind the captain when throwing.
Kind of but it's much less useful compared to Pikmin 1
we need a pikmin game with 3 captains, swarming and none of the Pikmin 4 """QoL""" changes
Reason why I play pikmin 1 and 2 because it feels like I actually could mess up and have to restart but again 4 holds my hand all the way thru. It's just so sad
I think that the reason why swarming was remove was do to the Ai of the pikmin and just how they follow the player around the map.
7:14 ZELLIGG MENTIONED RAH!!! WHAT IS BELGIAN ACCEPTANCE?!
8:43 broo why was that pause in your voice so funny 😭😭 bro really doesn't want to talk about it anymore
Pikmin 4 should’ve made swarming free could’ve made it 0.01% better
I just feel that swarming is more balanced and versatile than charging so I’m a bit annoyed they removed it, charging just kills enemies instantly and is less seamless to use, wish that the next game incorporates swarming
That Gaddafi Joke was great
Only good part of the Lineup Trumpet is the nice bugle call it plays.
one of the many reasons ive played pikmin 1 and 2 a hundred times and pikmin 3 only once. i havent even bothered trying four
i hate that stupid space dog ❤️
I theorize the reason it's a late game unlock is because it's hardly treated as a legitimate control option so much as an homage to the GameCube entries.
Generally Pikmin 4 as a whole loves to ride on Pikmin 2's nostalgia coattails as the entire waterwraith cave among other inclusions would show. This isn't a legitimate attempt at including the swarming feature because the game is designed around the charging feature, which while not necessarily a bad control option in my opinion should not necessarily have permanently replaced this control method. In essence it's been reduced to an impractical reference meant to make long term fans pop off because it exists in a modern entry.
Pikmin 4 makes me feel old whenever I prefer anything about the GCN games.
I never knew i needed a youtube channel that is pikmin x shit posting but im glad its a thing
The longer Pikmin 4 is out the more I realize that they just don't understand what made Pikmin good. I don't want a dog that does everything for me and I don't want you to pick what pikmin I use. I feel like they are too scared to let us try and possibly even fail.
It's insultingly frustrating how nintendo is obsessed with dumbing down everything to replace them with unwanted gimmicks.
Did you get a new microphone? The video sounds really good.
Never wear the Red Pikmin underwear.
Pikmin 4 really does just have a ton of tiny issues that could easily be fixed, but as is they just bog down the experience
Charging just got a point! Swarming 11 Charging 3
I think they should've given us the swarm in 4 in the beginning for free. And for most of the game we get used to it and then near the halfway point or near the end, give us the charge.
(Too bad it doesn't control good though so mabey that's why it's unlocked at the end)
I actually don’t mind swarming was replaced with the charge attack in modern pikmin, but I’ll never forgive 4 for having the swarm whistle in the end game 😢