i know heatables is doing a sales pitch, but he is correct, bypass diodes do naff all really, but are micro inverters worth RIO on a south facing roof with no shading factor NO, ie he spoke about shading on a chimney that behind the south facing panels, thats NORTH.
@@ecoterrorist1402 there are many tests that show bypass diodes do make a significance difference, but it can depend on the panel and algorithms in the inverter.
@heatable As a potential customer who is looking to increase solar coverage I've been trying to find real world data on these panels and systems you have installed. I'm especially interested in being able to substantiate the claim these panels are good in light light conditions vs other high end alternatives. Have you got any further data you can share beyond the spec sheets and youtube vids you have so far published? I was able to learn the following from this vid: 21:45 shows mid afternoon on Feb 23rd this system was generating 150wh with values from 4wh to 9wh per panel 23:05 shows data from March 2nd, 3rd and 4th with a total generation of 52.5kwh. That sounds decent, but 3rd and 4th were primarily sunny days and doesn't really do much to back up the claim of low light capability.
Same here. Lots of claims, zero data to back it up as far as I can tell. Pity because it could be a real advantage (I doubt as much as he says, but a bit).
Yup. They promised to do a like for like comparison video several times, still not seen anything. Nor have I seen anything else on YT with provable data
Shame there is no mention of the potential down sides of micro inverters, and that is if one fails you'll likely need expensive scaffolding to replace it. You are far more likely to have a micro inverter fail than a panel. There is also no mention of efficiency losses when using an AC connected battery over a DC connected battery. I have two systems, Solaredge installed Iin 2015, and a Victron system last year, Victron will start working at around 53v, and as it's multiple strings in parallel it's less affected by shading like most DC systems. In fact I'm adding more solar to this system.
Superb video.... I've been watching your other video's on solar panels and you've given me information that you haven't covered on your other video's regards 8 or 16 bus lines on these panels? I was in the process of comparing the REA Fusion 2 with the Jinko Tiger Neo type N. But I can't find information out anywhere on the bus line specs??? Will you be doing an update on the best 5 solar panels specific to the UK and it's weather or ones which are more compatible with micro inverters. Cheers!
There seems to be a lot of discussion online about micro-inverters & AC panels vs central inverter & DC panels, would be great to understand long term support of the micro inverters. I like the idea of the REA AC panels & micro inverters, but my concerns are around reliability of the micro-inverters. If there was a failure in say 10 years time, assuming enphase micros are around, will there be compatibility issues? Would be good to discuss such scenarios.
For me if you look at the cost if the micro inverters plus the possibility of having to replace any if they go wrong, by having to get up on the roof and remove a panel etc I'd much rather just install a few more panels and get the same output. Much cheaper, less maintenance. More security.
Yeah this is the situation I'm in with SolarEdge optimisers, 1 of 14 has gone down after 8 1/2 years. Swap of the component is free, to get an installed to fit costs way more than it's worth. I believe Enphase are more reliable from those with experience in the past, but who really knows how reliable the present generation are...
@@carlarrowsmith this is my thinking. Getting scaffolding etc in to fix a broken micro, only to find out the replacements are not compatible. Your solar installation investment suddenly gets much more costly. You’d certainly want a brand that you know has the pedigree to hopefully be around in 5-10 years time.
@@thepauldeasy I have a shading issue for part of the morning, back in 2015 SolarEdge was the way to go for this reason. I don't think it is now and I'm looking at a standard string when I add additional capacity.
This is something that we're looking at doing a case study on. We have had this on a couple of installations, but we need to complete a direct comparison test to be able to confirm if it makes much difference.
How is the AC from the panel converted back to DC for battery storage? Does the battery have a AC to DC rectifier for charging from the PV panels and the grid? And I guess the battery must have an internal inverter for DC to AC when discharging?
If winter production is your aim I personally think the most effective thing is maximum coverage, every inch counts even if it's on a NNE roof. So for the given budget I would have some panels on the front roof and probably gone with Jinko Tiger Neo panels as I thinks they provide the best performance in the UK for the £ spent.
Hi, thanks for your comment. Totally agree, if budget allows then maximum area will always perform higher. We have installed Tiger Neo, they're a good panel and represent good VFM.
Nice video but they are some exaggerations. Most string inverters have start up voltage ranging from 80-150V, not 300V as stated in this video. Some string inverters like the goodwe ES G2 have startup voltage as low as 58V and mppt range of 60 - 550V. Why some installers feel it's necessary to oversell micro inverters is what I don't get. Micro and string inverters have their respective pros and cons so claiming one type is best for all situations is simply ridiculous. Also claiming that bifacial panels installed very close to a dark roof generate 18% more power is neither realistic nor believable unless they are being compared with non-equivalent low end solar panels.
I was under the impression, and many vids on youtube have shown, that modern panels that have diode protection for shading, means that the total array does not under perform if just one panel, or even part of one panel is shaded or obscured, what happens is that just that one section of that one panel is isolated, and split panels improve on this ..correct me if I am wrong though ..
Nice video and good to see some real life output data. I had a similar Heatable system installed 5 weeks ago, also with a Giv AIO and Gateway located in a detached garage. The installers did a great job getting the power to the gateway 10 m from the incoming mains supply. Really pleased with the system performance so far. 14 panels and iQ8AC microinverters.
Hi Steve, Thanks for your comment and for your business. Great to hear your system is performing well. We'll pass on your kind words to the installation team too.
A microinverter might only need 12v but a Tesla powerwall 3 inverter requires only 50v and a Fronius gen 24 inverter requires only 80v, so if 5 and 8 panel’s respectively are connected in parallel, they actually turn on earlier than microinverters.
Not true that all16 would be worse because of shading on 1 panel. All inverters that size would have 2 strings. Only one string would be worsened. So max the other 7 Shocked you're misreprting this basic knowledge. Also panels like that have some individual isolating abilities. The string power would drop. But not as bad as you say.
Bifacial panels need light color roof and space between the panels and the roof to even take advantage of the rear cells. Nevertheless those panels are nice. Most bifacial panels are commercial use and have silver frame. Black on black bifacial panels are hard to find.
You say micros start at 9v Vs single inverter needs 300v. But each cell is 0.5v it's the amps that change based on the sunlight. I have 4 panels on a string 4x40v. In low light produce at 0.2amps in full sun at 12 amps. It's volts x amps and amps rise with the sun. Volts hardly change.
...and most string inverters have start up voltage ranging from 80-150V, not 300V as stated in this video. Some string inverters like the goodwe ES G2 have startup voltage as low as 58V and mppt range of 60 - 550V. Why some installers feel it's necessary to oversell micro inverters is what I don't get. Micro and string inverters have their respective pros and cons so claiming one type is best for all cases is simply ridiculous.
This is a bit misleading. DC systems can be wired in series or parallel or (generally) a combination. If these panels are wired in parallel, then shading of one panel only affects generation from that panel -- and with up to 16 bypass diodes on panels, it will actually only affect a 1/16th of that one panel's ability to generate -- not the whole panel and certainly not the whole roof! Additionally, micro inverters are not that reliable -- and mounted on a roof will be expensive to replace. On a roof, micro inverters (think sensitive electronics) are be subject to the same weather conditions as the panels -- which is not great! Electronics hate heat and moisture!
Hi, thanks for your comment. It wouldn't be possible to wire the panels in parallel as whilst the current would rise, the voltage would remain the same as a single panel. The majority of the commonly used inverters don't use low voltage MPPT's and require higher voltages with lower amps. The micro's are more expensive to replace however, the array maps pin point the failure location, where as with a panel failure (especially when wired at high voltage), each panel would need to be tested until the failure is identified. There are pro's and cons to both systems 🙂
@@Heatable Thanks for your response. As I said DC systems are generally wired in series/parallel - to get the voltage you need and to minimise the current -- as high current= hi cost cables! The other issue is with regard to the micro inverters -- which as I understand 'invert' at a high frequency compared to DC inverters, the better ones use a large toroid transformer and invert at 50Hz or 100Hz. This generates much less in terms of RF interference and tends to offer the best in terms of frequency stability. Correctly sized, these inverters will last a long as the panels - which in my experience, the micro inverters do not. (Low levels of RF interference is a critical parameter for me) Best wishes Bruce
The inverter would have 2x mppt so at worse half the string would be affected. But you wouldn't be able to do 2 panels on their own with a single inverter
You say that battery will fail in time. But really rested for 8000 cycles. That's over 25 years of daily cycling. So very very unlikely anyone is seeing these fail in a medium time frame. Otherwise good video
It is a shame Heatable don't maximize your installation albedo gains by painting behind the bifacial panels like you're supposed to do. By not doing this, you're limiting potential performance of the panels that you claim are ideally suited for the UK, which is ironic!
Hey, thanks for your comment. We've got a system that has been painted white underneath the panels. However, we can't do a direct comparison on performance as there's no space unpainted. We're looking to do a case study on this, so when we do, we'll make sure to answer whether it's worth it or not.
@@Heatable ruclips.net/video/mzqjCsZKUYQ/видео.htmlsi=PbA3GsXTgwUfKw1_ Best of luck! Hope you see the same sense in doing this. BTW, I have white background behind my LG/ SHARP bifacial panels on my roof and have seen the incremental gains for myself.
I would not want to use AC from panels on a battery system. Keep everything DC with less ACDC conversion losses. I would use 3 strings of 5 panels and a 250 Vmax charge controller. Microinverters on the roof are more difficult to replace with a failure. With strings and central converters, failures of PV panels on the roof are the only thing that can go wrong, and are very rare. I don't like going on the roof, myself, and I'm too cheap to pay others to come out and fix a problem..
Enphase have not even come up with a micro inverter rated to the 440w (actually 500w given double glass). So your panels are being clipped by enphase limits. Otherwise a good video. Well made
Feels a bit disingenuous saying they've never not generated. Neither have my more traditional PV panels never not generated. I think the worse Ive seen is my 5925w panels only manage 7kwh. This was early May. Also, and again a bit disingenuous with that panel affected by shading, you'd have 8 on one sting, and 8 on another normally?
Shading from a soft edged cloud miles in the sky is also so far away as to cause zero difference on a roof. So really don't list clouds. Trees chimneys bird poo moss
One thing about all these new experts they all have something to sell you to make a profit. Do your homework and don't look fro someone else's idea of what is best for you.
We make this free content to help educate people on what we believe are some of the best options available, of course it's always up to the consumer to make their own decisions :)
8:20 what you say about DC string connections used to be true years ago but is no longer the case with modern panels with bypass diodes.
i know heatables is doing a sales pitch, but he is correct, bypass diodes do naff all really, but are micro inverters worth RIO on a south facing roof with no shading factor NO, ie he spoke about shading on a chimney that behind the south facing panels, thats NORTH.
Hi, thanks for your comment. Just to clarify, the rear roof is 49' from south.
@@ecoterrorist1402 there are many tests that show bypass diodes do make a significance difference, but it can depend on the panel and algorithms in the inverter.
@heatable As a potential customer who is looking to increase solar coverage I've been trying to find real world data on these panels and systems you have installed. I'm especially interested in being able to substantiate the claim these panels are good in light light conditions vs other high end alternatives. Have you got any further data you can share beyond the spec sheets and youtube vids you have so far published?
I was able to learn the following from this vid:
21:45 shows mid afternoon on Feb 23rd this system was generating 150wh with values from 4wh to 9wh per panel
23:05 shows data from March 2nd, 3rd and 4th with a total generation of 52.5kwh. That sounds decent, but 3rd and 4th were primarily sunny days and doesn't really do much to back up the claim of low light capability.
Same here. Lots of claims, zero data to back it up as far as I can tell. Pity because it could be a real advantage (I doubt as much as he says, but a bit).
Yup. They promised to do a like for like comparison video several times, still not seen anything.
Nor have I seen anything else on YT with provable data
Shame there is no mention of the potential down sides of micro inverters, and that is if one fails you'll likely need expensive scaffolding to replace it. You are far more likely to have a micro inverter fail than a panel. There is also no mention of efficiency losses when using an AC connected battery over a DC connected battery. I have two systems, Solaredge installed Iin 2015, and a Victron system last year, Victron will start working at around 53v, and as it's multiple strings in parallel it's less affected by shading like most DC systems. In fact I'm adding more solar to this system.
Excellent video, very informative!
Thank you.
Thanks for the comment!
Superb video.... I've been watching your other video's on solar panels and you've given me information that you haven't covered on your other video's regards 8 or 16 bus lines on these panels? I was in the process of comparing the REA Fusion 2 with the Jinko Tiger Neo type N. But I can't find information out anywhere on the bus line specs??? Will you be doing an update on the best 5 solar panels specific to the UK and it's weather or ones which are more compatible with micro inverters. Cheers!
Hey Roy, thanks for your comment. We'll be doing an update in the New Year of the best panels that compare with the REA Fusion 2.
There seems to be a lot of discussion online about micro-inverters & AC panels vs central inverter & DC panels, would be great to understand long term support of the micro inverters. I like the idea of the REA AC panels & micro inverters, but my concerns are around reliability of the micro-inverters. If there was a failure in say 10 years time, assuming enphase micros are around, will there be compatibility issues? Would be good to discuss such scenarios.
For me if you look at the cost if the micro inverters plus the possibility of having to replace any if they go wrong, by having to get up on the roof and remove a panel etc I'd much rather just install a few more panels and get the same output. Much cheaper, less maintenance. More security.
Yeah this is the situation I'm in with SolarEdge optimisers, 1 of 14 has gone down after 8 1/2 years. Swap of the component is free, to get an installed to fit costs way more than it's worth. I believe Enphase are more reliable from those with experience in the past, but who really knows how reliable the present generation are...
@@carlarrowsmith this is my thinking. Getting scaffolding etc in to fix a broken micro, only to find out the replacements are not compatible. Your solar installation investment suddenly gets much more costly. You’d certainly want a brand that you know has the pedigree to hopefully be around in 5-10 years time.
@@thepauldeasy I have a shading issue for part of the morning, back in 2015 SolarEdge was the way to go for this reason. I don't think it is now and I'm looking at a standard string when I add additional capacity.
would there be an advantage of painting the roof white underneath?
This is something that we're looking at doing a case study on. We have had this on a couple of installations, but we need to complete a direct comparison test to be able to confirm if it makes much difference.
Mylar foil or a mirror would be even better
This is my dream setup, just waiting for the dual battery option. Does this need the metered Enphase Envoy-s?
Yes it would require the metered Envoy.
The standard Envoys aren't able to read export/import.
How is the AC from the panel converted back to DC for battery storage? Does the battery have a AC to DC rectifier for charging from the PV panels and the grid? And I guess the battery must have an internal inverter for DC to AC when discharging?
If winter production is your aim I personally think the most effective thing is maximum coverage, every inch counts even if it's on a NNE roof.
So for the given budget I would have some panels on the front roof and probably gone with Jinko Tiger Neo panels as I thinks they provide the best performance in the UK for the £ spent.
Hi, thanks for your comment. Totally agree, if budget allows then maximum area will always perform higher.
We have installed Tiger Neo, they're a good panel and represent good VFM.
Also got those panels. Shocked at how they will generate power even on overcast and rainy days.
Nice video but they are some exaggerations. Most string inverters have start up voltage ranging from 80-150V, not 300V as stated in this video. Some string inverters like the goodwe ES G2 have startup voltage as low as 58V and mppt range of 60 - 550V. Why some installers feel it's necessary to oversell micro inverters is what I don't get. Micro and string inverters have their respective pros and cons so claiming one type is best for all situations is simply ridiculous. Also claiming that bifacial panels installed very close to a dark roof generate 18% more power is neither realistic nor believable unless they are being compared with non-equivalent low end solar panels.
I was under the impression, and many vids on youtube have shown, that modern panels that have diode protection for shading, means that the total array does not under perform if just one panel, or even part of one panel is shaded or obscured, what happens is that just that one section of that one panel is isolated, and split panels improve on this ..correct me if I am wrong though ..
Nice video and good to see some real life output data. I had a similar Heatable system installed 5 weeks ago, also with a Giv AIO and Gateway located in a detached garage. The installers did a great job getting the power to the gateway 10 m from the incoming mains supply. Really pleased with the system performance so far. 14 panels and iQ8AC microinverters.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your comment and for your business. Great to hear your system is performing well. We'll pass on your kind words to the installation team too.
16*£130 micro inverters is a lot more expensive than 1x£400-800 inverter.
No, sorry but that issue with shaded pwm panels has been fixed with a bypass diode for some years now. These things are not clearly advertised
A microinverter might only need 12v but a Tesla powerwall 3 inverter requires only 50v and a Fronius gen 24 inverter requires only 80v, so if 5 and 8 panel’s respectively are connected in parallel, they actually turn on earlier than microinverters.
Not true that all16 would be worse because of shading on 1 panel. All inverters that size would have 2 strings. Only one string would be worsened. So max the other 7 Shocked you're misreprting this basic knowledge. Also panels like that have some individual isolating abilities. The string power would drop. But not as bad as you say.
REA panels from Australia. And you're saying they're designed for British low light in winter. That's not really correct... Designed for the UK?
Fundamentally... what did it cost, what did it produce, what savings were made.
This is the problem no hard evidence STILL to back these claims
Bifacial panels need light color roof and space between the panels and the roof to even take advantage of the rear cells. Nevertheless those panels are nice. Most bifacial panels are commercial use and have silver frame. Black on black bifacial panels are hard to find.
Found! 😁
You say micros start at 9v Vs single inverter needs 300v. But each cell is 0.5v it's the amps that change based on the sunlight. I have 4 panels on a string 4x40v. In low light produce at 0.2amps in full sun at 12 amps. It's volts x amps and amps rise with the sun. Volts hardly change.
...and most string inverters have start up voltage ranging from 80-150V, not 300V as stated in this video. Some string inverters like the goodwe ES G2 have startup voltage as low as 58V and mppt range of 60 - 550V. Why some installers feel it's necessary to oversell micro inverters is what I don't get. Micro and string inverters have their respective pros and cons so claiming one type is best for all cases is simply ridiculous.
This is a bit misleading.
DC systems can be wired in series or parallel or (generally) a combination. If these panels are wired in parallel, then shading of one panel only affects generation from that panel -- and with up to 16 bypass diodes on panels, it will actually only affect a 1/16th of that one panel's ability to generate -- not the whole panel and certainly not the whole roof!
Additionally, micro inverters are not that reliable -- and mounted on a roof will be expensive to replace. On a roof, micro inverters (think sensitive electronics) are be subject to the same weather conditions as the panels -- which is not great! Electronics hate heat and moisture!
Hi, thanks for your comment.
It wouldn't be possible to wire the panels in parallel as whilst the current would rise, the voltage would remain the same as a single panel. The majority of the commonly used inverters don't use low voltage MPPT's and require higher voltages with lower amps.
The micro's are more expensive to replace however, the array maps pin point the failure location, where as with a panel failure (especially when wired at high voltage), each panel would need to be tested until the failure is identified. There are pro's and cons to both systems 🙂
@@Heatable Thanks for your response.
As I said DC systems are generally wired in series/parallel - to get the voltage you need and to minimise the current -- as high current= hi cost cables!
The other issue is with regard to the micro inverters -- which as I understand 'invert' at a high frequency compared to DC inverters, the better ones use a large toroid transformer and invert at 50Hz or 100Hz. This generates much less in terms of RF interference and tends to offer the best in terms of frequency stability.
Correctly sized, these inverters will last a long as the panels - which in my experience, the micro inverters do not. (Low levels of RF interference is a critical parameter for me)
Best wishes
Bruce
The inverter would have 2x mppt so at worse half the string would be affected. But you wouldn't be able to do 2 panels on their own with a single inverter
You say that battery will fail in time. But really rested for 8000 cycles. That's over 25 years of daily cycling. So very very unlikely anyone is seeing these fail in a medium time frame. Otherwise good video
It is a shame Heatable don't maximize your installation albedo gains by painting behind the bifacial panels like you're supposed to do. By not doing this, you're limiting potential performance of the panels that you claim are ideally suited for the UK, which is ironic!
Hey, thanks for your comment. We've got a system that has been painted white underneath the panels. However, we can't do a direct comparison on performance as there's no space unpainted. We're looking to do a case study on this, so when we do, we'll make sure to answer whether it's worth it or not.
@@Heatable ruclips.net/video/mzqjCsZKUYQ/видео.htmlsi=PbA3GsXTgwUfKw1_
Best of luck! Hope you see the same sense in doing this. BTW, I have white background behind my LG/ SHARP bifacial panels on my roof and have seen the incremental gains for myself.
I would not want to use AC from panels on a battery system. Keep everything DC with less ACDC conversion losses. I would use 3 strings of 5 panels and a 250 Vmax charge controller.
Microinverters on the roof are more difficult to replace with a failure. With strings and central converters, failures of PV panels on the roof are the only thing that can go wrong, and are very rare. I don't like going on the roof, myself, and I'm too cheap to pay others to come out and fix a problem..
Enphase have not even come up with a micro inverter rated to the 440w (actually 500w given double glass). So your panels are being clipped by enphase limits.
Otherwise a good video. Well made
Feels a bit disingenuous saying they've never not generated.
Neither have my more traditional PV panels never not generated.
I think the worse Ive seen is my 5925w panels only manage 7kwh. This was early May.
Also, and again a bit disingenuous with that panel affected by shading, you'd have 8 on one sting, and 8 on another normally?
My almost 9 year old system hasn't generated for several days. When covered in snow you get nought!
@@carlarrowsmith I'd imagine this would be the same for any panel make?
@@stuartburns8657 exactly.
@@VinoVeritas_ Not sure I'd go that far. It's technically correct but taken out of context and over exaggerated to suit a particular point
What's the failure rate of the microinverters ! Clouds ! Really
Shading from a soft edged cloud miles in the sky is also so far away as to cause zero difference on a roof. So really don't list clouds. Trees chimneys bird poo moss
wont work well 6 months of the year
Take a look at our video showing how these bifacial panels perform almost 20% better in winter! ruclips.net/video/JzYQglckCvo/видео.html
Full of shit. Partial shade issue way exaggerated. Multi string inverters allow different groups of panels
One thing about all these new experts they all have something to sell you to make a profit. Do your homework and don't look fro someone else's idea of what is best for you.
We make this free content to help educate people on what we believe are some of the best options available, of course it's always up to the consumer to make their own decisions :)