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Gibson, Fender, PRS will not do Nitro on the affordable guitars. Here Is WHY
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
- #knowyourgear #podcast #guitarpodcast #geekystuff
Full episode here
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Fender: $880M, Gibson: $375M, Hoshino (Ibanez): $95M, PRS: $88M. Source: 2023 NAMM Music Trades annual revenue report. You're welcome.
God damn, Fender putting foot in ass
PRS being a tenth of Fender is wild. Thats a lot of squire starter packs...
If your mom raised you to be an asshole, then she was a resounding success.
@@dcflake5645 Yeah and I wonder how big Jackson really is considering outside us fans no one seems to know about them anymore.
Wow i thought the numbers would be much bigger!?
My MIM Fender Tele Jason Isbell signature came with a nitro finish. $1400 range. I feel they did a pretty good job on it
The main function of finish on the guitar is to protect the wood, and secondarily (though it's hard to believe it the way they're sold) how it looks. It seems like the nitro finish is more about a look, though not everyone agrees it's better. To me I like a hard glossy finish that's easy to clean and keeps moisture away. I think it looks nicer too, but it just seems to last forever. I guess I'm lucky I like the cheaper version.
My big three are Keisel Gibson and Ernie Ball. Those are my favorite guitars I keep at arms length away.
When I think of the big 3, I think of the top 3, meaning the best 3. Which, to me, is G, F, and PRS. I love nitro :)
Today I played all day, from the time I woke up, till now 10pm. What a glorious day. Managed to play all but one of my guitars. All are custom shops, all are nitro, and all are some of the finest guitars ever made. Thank you Fender and Gibson for treating this hard working man to such a blissful day!!
Right on
Loving these, just watched the Heritage guitar one!
Fender did the road worn series in nitro, but it was such a problem with setup and time that they stopped making them.
They still do some of the custom shop stock in nitro from mexico. Usually have a few designs per season in andertons for about a grand.
Mexico has easier pollution laws
My preference as a luthier is to use a two pack resin thinned right down and applied as though it is an oil finish. Bombproof, non-gloss, doesn't change the resonant frequency of the guitar and doesn't need any spray equipment. Takes two or three minutes to apply with a cloth and is touch dry in 5 minutes. I am at a loss as to why manufacturers are so hooked up on traditional spraying as it is a lot more expensive in time, space and equipment. I guess it's just tradition writ large...
how are you measuring resonant frequencies asking as a home luthier
Thinning with alcohol?
@@rvaguitars Recommended thinner for the two pack.
@@rickmccl71 Studio condenser mic. Hang the parts up, hit with a rubber mallet. Bung into DAW and look at the spectrum peaks and troughs. I normally do multiple necks at a time and try to marry them up with the bodies. It's a bit suck it and see but the dead frequencies are really obvious when the parts don't marry up.
Peavey attempted to remedy the spraying drawbacks with the technique used for their T Series guitars by essentially using a sort of powder coating method and actually the finishes on those guitars are really nice. Toughness of polyurethane but not the inherent plasticky feel or look. Trying what you're suggesting would be interesting and probably does work really well for all the reasons you mentioned
I think I'm so used to the look of a gibson LP or 335 or fender strat / tele that I have never been able to wrap my head around the look of the classic PRS ............ I just can't get into it. But when I noodled with a friends the playability of it was fantastic.
They made MIM classic 50 and 60s Strats in Nitro.
You can get a decent import plek'd and it would play as well as any $4500 high end strat copy.
Phil you need to expand on why not to wear a cowboy hat in Paris.
VOCs from Nitro is also an issue
No EPA overseas, easier to nitro.
I picked up a made in Mexico Jason Isbell Tele with a nice nitro finish. It has some very nice fine checking after a year. I swapped out the neck for a Musikraft soft v stainless steel neck, so it ain’t a cheap guitar anymore. But much less than Custom Shop.
You want to sell the original neck?
@@marcaustin yeah probably
My epiphone Elitist had a nitro finish, was a hell of a guitar
Hi Phil - love your channel! I can't remember where I heard this, but I heard it said that polyurethane finishes are less susceptible to changes in temperature and humidity than nitrocellulose finishes. Is there any truth to this? I know that these issues are more prevalent in acoustic guitars, but I'm curious about these finishes on electrics.
Poly is essentially plastic epoxy. A lot of import guitars have it because by the time it gets from Asia to literally anywhere else on the planet, the guitar will have gone through just about every imaginable climate and temperature imaginable and also because the ride isn't going to be like it's riding on the back seat of a Cadillac Eldorado. It has to be pretty much a rock hard finish to withstand transportation and handling both during the shipping but also to be able to withstand floor damage at the store it ends up in.
@@neilpatrickhairless Thanks for your detailed explanation of poly finish. Can I assume from your answer that poly is indeed better at resisting temperature and humidity changes than nitrocellulose?
So Right - Big 3 for Great reason. Love PRS.
They look great and play great but their sound is gesound that really doesn’t sound unique,unlike fenders or Gibson.
I meant to say generic and really nothing special, I did own a PRS and sold it for a strat!
❓️@Phillip McKnight I have really dry hands too and am perpetually cracked on my most often used guitar-fingers and bpth thumbs. Any tips for hand care?
I also think this might be a good subject on a show sometime, ala' the previous mentions you've made about older players maladies like arthritis; reducing string Guage, stretching, etc.
Thanks!
Cicaplast Hand Cream my friend.
Vaseline or O'keefes
Also more cardio at gym
Drink more water. Internal hydration helps with skin hydration.
Do they make more money from selling nitro guitars or the cheaper version that's what matters to them.
I just got the new Epiphone Les Paul Custom with the Gibson headstock in white. I’m happy it’s polyurethane. The clear coat wont yellow. 😀
If you bought an Epi, you deserve polyurethane. 🤣 I keeeeeed.
Won't crack as easily either
Keep it away from windows or in its case if you want it to stay white. Sunlight will make it yellow regardless of whether or not it is nitro or poly because the sun is the devil and ruins everything.
Got a lot of guitars with white plastics that turned cream/tan, Black LP Custom style guitars where the parts of the white binding covered by clear coat started turning cream/yellow, etc. because the only place I could fit a multi-guitar stand was near a window. Said window had black blinds, but still let in some sunlight.
@@Run-Riot This right here. Poly may not yellow as fast, but it WILL still yellow eventually.
Nice!!
Yes, it's Ibanez lol much respect to PRS though
my rare Sun Dew Gold Ibanez Pia in poly f'ing rocks.
Everything about it rocks.
If it was nitro ?
The feel would have been different and it would have been
just for you ?
deal or no deal ?
no deal.
I remember when you could get nitro finished Highway 1 Strats & Teles for $550. They canceled that line then renamed it and relaunched it with a higher price like 5 times. I know at various points they were called Thin Skins then Road Worn. Last time I saw them they were like $1,500. I think they eventually stopped making them because they were eating into the business of the lower end American Fenders.
Jeff Beck used baby powder…ever since I seen that I have too… works great so why scuff your your guitar neck? Sometimes fingers feel like their sticking together and baby power eliminates it… travel size takes up very little room! Happy guitar playing😊
Because taking a piece of four aught to it once costs a couple of pennies once and using toxic talcum powder on it every time you play it is going to cost you several dollars every time your baby powder bottle runs out. Plus you can use the four aught to clean the fingerboard and polish the frets as well while you're at it.
Do it about once a year and save the baby powder for the baby asses
(though that's not even recommended because apparently it's not exactly healthy to put talc anywhere on a person's body)
nitro cannot be applied cheaply, that's all.
Phillip, how can one tell whether a relic'd guitar is new or used?
Hahahaha that's a great question
Nitro is overhyped in my opinion. Personally I’ll chose to have the wood breathe less (that’s the myth anyway as I understand it) supposedly Nitro lets the wood breathe more therefore it sounds better? Now aging with you the guitar I mean is phenomenally cool.
If it means my guitars color looks newer for longer. Chips and dents in paint drive me nuts thanks anxiety (similar to OCD tendencies)😂😂😂
A guitars finish is just a finish either way if Nitro on lower priced guitars would make people happier well I won’t argue.
I think I prefer poly to nitro because it’s hard
Big Three: Cort, Cort, Cort
for me... its gibson, fender, martin
The best three
Good, not a fan of break-down nitro anyways!
As of 2023 US market share statistics shows Gibson #1 @ 34%, Fender #2 @ 30%, then it drops a lot. Ibanez #3 @ 12%, Yamaha #4 @ 7%, Epiphone #5 @ 4%. And keep in mind Gibson is purely made in USA at Gibson's facilities. Unlike Fender, PRS and others, they don't count the overseas production and guitars not even made by them. I don't have an individual breakdown but Ovation, PRS, Charvel, ESP, Jackson, Dean, Washburn together make up 9%. So I can understand why PRS doesn't understand why you mention them with Gibson and Fender. It is literally those two and then everyone else.
I think you are right. I could see Gibson doing it with Epiphone. They are obviously trying to raise the ASP (average selling price) of Epiphone and that would allow it. What I don't think we'll see, even outside of the Custom shop, is hot hide glue. If you order something from Martin custom shop they charge an additional $1250 if you want them to do hot hide glue. And that's with the base model guitar being $9700 dollars. That tells me it's a giant PITA and they simply don't want to do it.
People don't understand sometimes what makes Gibson guitars expensive. If it wasn't for the volume they do they would be way more expensive.
Hahahahaha I still don't understand what would make them that expensive. Hot hide glue is what they use to glue together every single skateboard deck produced out of multiple plies of maple. It's not a premium hard to find or hard to apply product whatsoever in any shape or form. Guitar companies just like charging people premium prices for random reasons like the whole koa wood nonsense. Koa wood is cheap hardwood that grows like weeds and Gibson charges people thousands extra for it because someone saw a picture of Eric Clapton playing a guitar made out of it half a century ago.
Like Ash wood... Charging more for Ash wood when you can buy Hackwood which is identical in every single way for ¼ of the price of a piece of Ash. Anyone who has a basic layman's understanding of manufacturing and materials acquisition probably is wondering why Gibson charges people over 2 grand to carve a piece of wood and apply plastic binding to it and very little else that would require a major amount of time or effort o expense on the manufacturer's part.
Though to be fair, I would personally charge someone several grand to even bother attempting to wire a semi hollow guitar so that's probably the only other labor time or expense intensive process in the entire shop.
@@neilpatrickhairless It sets up really fast. Titebond if you get the neck wrong you can move it around. That's why nobody uses it. There's little margin for error.
I'm just stating that's what they charge. I was shocked myself. But if you believe it's important Gibson Custom Shop uses it exclusively.
You don't need it. I have oil based cupboard varnish on my Telecaster.
Gibson did nitro on the 2017 Firebird studios
Warmoth uses very thin poly finishes that are way thinner than any nitro finish. Nitro kills your lungs if you don’t wear a respirator and also is bad for the environment.
I have owned a lot of of guitars in 49 years of playing. To be honest nitro is not quite as good as French polish for protection, and way worse than anything else for feel. Keep gloss polyurethane clean, and it is the slickest finish ever
"Big 3" makes more sense for acoustics. C.F. Martin, Taylor and Gibson. if that's the question, Taylor hasn't used Nitro since the 1990s. Martin will likely never put a Nitro finish on guitars in their factory in Mexico. Gibson did use Nitro on the original J-15's ($1200) launched in 2014 (discontinued in 2019). Epiphone will begin using Nitro on the highest end Inspired By Gibson models within two years. Not going to say how I know that, but let's just call it a jut feeling ;) But when they introduce a few models with Nitro finish, don't think they will be "affordable"
Green screen?
You didn’t mention Mexican Fender guitars as a possibility for nitro…have they already done it for special models?
Fender road worn are made in Mexico and have relic nitro finish
@@Ashley-oi8cj ah, didn’t know it was nitro
Yeah I have a great Gibson Studio Deluxe II. It is my only guitar that the finish is cracking. Nitro finish... You will never convince me Nitro is the best. Otherwise your car would be painted in Nitro. The car industry moved away from Nitro for a reason.
I just can't understand why ppl want a nitro finish - given all the finish options today, it's just a really dumb thing to use on a guitar, no durability, reactacs with leather and rubber, the neck gets all sticky...
Philip - Next time your in a place like Florida with high heat and humidity pickup a nitro guitar and tell me how it feels...
Appreciate your explanation, Phil! So are nitro and the polys the only options for (painted) guitar finishes? I'm not a scientist, but I'm presuming that guitar manufacturers would have come up with a different finish that improves a guitar's sound (that doesn't have the toxicity of nitro).
And after getting videos pushed on my RUclips feeds that talk about some blue core (and S2) PRS finishes fading, it'd be interesting to hear what caused that and if it's been solved.
polyester is another.
2:48 my Yngwie strat "made in the usa" had the worst fret work i've ever seen. I could not believe how bad it was for a made in usa guitar at that price point. So yes, I definitely believe they are pushing them out as fast as possible with no QC
buy a Solar equiv. I've 5, never looked back and i play blues, not metal.
@@PeterMoore350 I have a Solar. They are good yes. But that is not what the comment was about. It was about how terrible Fender is with their QC
@@doyouluvit that's my point bro.
Solars, well at least the ones you and i buy, are made in Indonesia.
Quality is awesome.
Again i have 5 Solars. I had 6, sold one to pay medical bills, sadly.
Trogly, bless him and i love his channel as it's so educational keeps apologising for Gibsons which are black and all their swirls and blemishes and you get that with black Gibsons, to paraphrase.
My PRS SE Tremonti single cut gloss black also made in Indonesia 2020 is/was flawless.
Polishing flaws ? Swirls ?
Nope. Flawless.
Poly ? yep. Anyone that wants nitro ?
boom.
nitro glycogen joke there
QC ?
yes, that's where i was too.
"Buy a Solar" no QC issues.
Ptr
@@doyouluvit fair enough. I’ve a 2020 Squier Affinity Strat HSS. Black with the sparkly pick guard. Made in China.
I bought it as a project guitar in January 2021 but it’s so damn good all I’ve done is change the strings!!
The shop basically pulled it out of their warehouse, no setup no need!!
Just the strings needed changing as i mentioned 😍
Cheers from NZ 😎🎸🤘
i'll say this straight up.
i, as a guitar player for 50 years, despise nitro.
You can wax lyrical about it as much as you friggin want ?
Fine.
Give me poly every day of every week.
Ok ?
I'm not interested in anything anyone has to say about nitro v poly.
If i buy a poly finished guitar - which i have done, probably obviously - i want it to look and feel 10, 20 years later the same as when i i bought it.
A guitar finish that degrades ?
And people pay for that ? Good on them, not for me.
Think of a high end car. One in our price range perhaps ?
Would you want a poly gloss one that looks pretty awesome ? Or one that looks like it's a barn find after 2 years ?
In terms of you, Phil, justifying why companies do it ?
Fine, but no.
I contacted PRS and mentioned i wouldn't be buying any PRS guitars that were nitro.
Their repsonse was meh - coz they think i'm a nobody.
If only they knew.
Ptr
I agree with them, I think that you are a nobody
Guitar players are a strange bunch. If I paid for a Ferrari and it came as a premium option to have it painted in Sherman Williams house paint, I wouldn’t consider it an upgrade.
If it was more expensive you would
Sherwin Williams makes Krylon. Many Krylon colors match 50’s Fender Colors for some odd reason.
for sure ibanez would be in the big 3 and not prs,its not even close
Three weeks and no new video? Should I start to worry?
Finish is for looks. Not sound, and if it's new, even 50 dollar guitars look good.... now you know and knowledge is power
you're paying for the labour that it takes to actually get nitro right. It's a crap finish, they did it on the cheap in the 50's to keep costs down vs Fenders back then.
Poly is ubiquitous now.
They could even get robots to paint the guitars, but knowing Gibson the entry point is still gonna be $2 or $3 k which is unaffordable.
IDGAF about nitro finishes as a Gibson tradition. Nor does anyone i know.
Does Nitro make te guitar sound better? Play Better? Last longer?
No, not at all. Nitro finishes are inferior. The nitro that was used on vintage instruments was banned by the EPA in 1975. The nitro being using today is reformulated, restricted, and not the same stuff. There's also a ton of marking BS surrounding nitro somehow being more legit for serious instruments. When you spray nitro, 70% of the product consists of toxic solvents that evaporate. What's left is a thin, fragile finish that never fully cures. To do it right, you need to build up several thin layers. Gibson, for example, lays it on thick, in order to save time. This is why many folks have been complaining about the sticky feel of Gibson necks.
Nitro finishes continually off-gas for years (has a sweet bar soap smell). This is neurotoxic and can affect the endocrine system as well as development of children's neurological systems. With that, I would not have a nitro guitar next to my bed or in my kids' room.
There is no tone difference between poly and nitro. There has been no credible A/B tests using a DAW. Any perceived difference is placebo.
Yes, nitro is easier to relic. This is a totally different topic. There's a running joke of doctors and lawyers buying custom shop relic guitars so they can give the impression thay have a lot more playing time invested than they actually do.
Folks, save yourself the hassle and go for more modern finishes. If not for your health, then for your family?
It just makes your guitar get dirtier faster lol. I have a custom with nitro. I usually don't care about that but I wanted to try it just to have an experience. Nothing special.
It's all hype
yes
Yes they wear away and let the wood breathe.
martin.
I almost think nitro is overrated. Think of the old guitars that have had multiple finishes but still sound great? I always go back to EVH who revolutionized tone with a guitar he spray painted and we're hear arguing about the nuance of finishes... there are numerous examples of great sounding guitars with paint that should be "choking" tone...
Nitrocellulose laquer is a crappy finish. Toxic to the builder, toxic to the player. The modern guitar finishes look better and feel better.
@:10 seconds, That's very strange that PRS would say this. It's obvious that from the very start PRSs marketing has been aimed at becoming the next Great American guitar brand that is mentioned in the same breath as Fender and Gibson. I personally feel that PRS is highly overrated and highly overpriced.
i realize you are 99% electric, but many folks consider fender/gibson/martin as "The Big 3"
Ibanez, ESP and Fender i think are the big three world wide.
Lacquer is simply much more toxic and more difficult and expensive to use industrially.
Big three is Gibson, Fender, Gretsch.
All Gretsch guitars are made by Fender. From the Gretsch wikipedia page: "In 2002, Gretsch entered a business agreement with Fender Musical Instruments Corporation. Under the terms of the agreement Fred W. Gretsch retains ownership while Fender has the exclusive rights to develop, produce, market and distribute Gretsch guitars worldwide."
They should put out guitars without any finish so we can apply the nitro ourselves.
Polyester finish is Awful for Tone. I Have a J&D Bros. Thinline Tele copy. Alder Body(Fully Hollow) Solid Maple one piece Neck. I Hand sanded the Polyester Finish off the Body and Did a Linseed Oil Finish after a Water based Chocolate Brown stain. Guitar came to Life.
Nitro finishes suck. Your case will tarnish the finish. And the strap too. And don't leave it hanging. And keep it out of the sunlight....
You can do all of the above and the guitar will actually be able to breathe.
Nitro segues into the tone wood argument, which is dubious at best, when talking about solid body electric guitars. Nitro degrades(breathes). That’s supposed to be analagous to being “alive”. Yikes
Nitro is an objectively inferior finish
I just say no to nitro. Not on my instruments! Or anything else, for that matter. Nitro sucks. I remember when I was a kid and saw my first cracked-ass nitro guitar finish; I looked at it and thought, “Jeez, that poor sap needs a new guitar!”
No matter what these nitros sound like, there’s much better options out there than nitro finishes.
Nitro finishes are trash and inferior. Let me explain why. Please try to remove bias from replies.
The nitro that was used on vintage instruments was banned by the EPA in 1975. The nitro being using today is reformulated, restricted, and not the same stuff. There's also a ton of marking BS surrounding nitro somehow being more legit for serious instruments. When you spray nitro, 70% of the product consists of toxic solvents that evaporate. What's left is a thin, fragile finish that never fully cures. To do it right, you need to build up several thin layers. Gibson, for example, lays it on thick, in order to save time. This is why many folks have been complaining about the sticky feel of Gibson necks.
Nitro finishes continually off-gas for years (has a sweet bar soap smell). This is neurotoxic and can affect the endocrine system as well as development of children's neurological systems. With that, I would not have a nitro guitar next to my bed or in my kids' room.
There is no tone difference between poly and nitro. There has been no credible A/B tests using a DAW. Any perceived difference is placebo.
Yes, nitro is easier to relic. This is a totally different topic. There's a running joke of doctors and lawyers buying custom shop relic guitars so they can give the impression thay have a lot more playing time invested than they actually do.
Folks, save yourself the hassle and go for more modern finishes. If not for your health, then for your family?
I would never put PRS in that company. None of the history and far smaller.
And here I am, dreaming of a day when guitar players stop asking for instruments with toxic finishes.
nitro is but 3 things. a defunct wrestling show, an out of date bass boat, and the absolute worst protective finish known to mankind. when it was invented, there werent better options available. today there are far finer finishes that do far better jobs in all aspects of an instrument. regardless of what hearsay and wivestale one subscribes to, nitro is garbage in any comparable atmosphere.
Some will argue that "it LeTs tHe WooD bReaThEe bro" or something
Agreed. You wouldn't want a nitro finish on your car, your fishing boat, nor your home. Only guitarists get dogmatic on a frankly inferior finish in hopes of faking a worn down instrument down the line.
@@deathdealer8185 It does.
@@crigonalgaming1258 how would it be fake if it's legitimate.
you know, you don't deserve Good things.
Nitrocellulose lacquer is not magical. It's a plastic, just like all other finishes. It's just nowhere near as durable.
it predates plastic by 50+ years.
it's not meant to be durable, it's meant to seal the wood until your hand oils can finish the wood instead.
@@HunnysPlaylists A DuPont employee called Edmund Flaherty invented nitrocellulose lacquer in 1921. It really started out as an automotive finish. Nitrocellulose is dissolved in a solvent, which may comprise naphtha, xylene, toluene, acetone, various ketones, and plasticising materials that enhance durability and flexibility. The resulting liquid can be sprayed and the extremely volatile solvent thinner evaporates almost immediately, to leave behind a layer of nitrocellulose solids. The word ‘plasticiser’ sets alarm bells ringing for nitrocellulose die-hards. After all, if nitrocellulose is meant to be more beautiful and toneful than plastic poly finishers, wouldn’t putting a plasticiser in the nitro defeat the object?
This is a misunderstanding, because plasticisers are not plastic. ‘Plasticity’ is defined as the ability to deform irreversibly without breaking. So placticisers are solvents that evaporate slowly over several years to prevent nitrocellulose from becoming too brittle. They don’t turn nitrocellulose into a ‘plastic finish’ because nitrocellulose is, after all, a type of plastic.
My point was not to get into some discussion about tone or anything else. I was only trying to point out that modern finishes are more durable and practical. Not to mention easier to use. There are plenty of myths that we guitar players have been told repeatedly, often by trustworthy people, and don't really question. I have certainly went along with several. However, after checking some of these myths, finish type, tone capacitors, a couple hotly debated ones, I have found it is usually a good idea to dig a little deeper than just believing the urban legend. I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to demystify a thing or two.
@@clarkgriffith5705 It's older than that, it's what the original picture film was made of.
Also, your "hand oils" aren't going to seal the wood, it's going to rot the wood. If you have bare open pore wood you need a natural oil finish like Danish/Linseed Oil or something. The oils on your skin are not nearly hard enough when dried to provide any type of durable finish whatsoever to wood. It's mostly going to clog the grain of the wood up with dirt and dead skin cells and varying degrees of moisture.
Nitro is not on my list. Garbage, not very durable. Turns to crap after a few years. Maybe okay for some special 18th century violin. There are much better choices.
Big 4