I BECAME WORLD FAMOUS. Thanks to Radio France. Tempo Reality Check
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- Radio France in a program called "Tendez l'oreille" hosted by Christophe Dilys featured our tempo research! The Whole Beat Metronome Practice was well summarized by Emmanuel Reibel, a very known and respected musicologist. A milestone for sure! But that's not all : at the end of this program a 'counter-voice' is served in the form of a piano recording of a Czerny etude. With the intention to give the floor also to pianists that want to show all of the Single Beat Metronome marks are simply possible. Well... there is something to say about that - let's do a Tempo Reality Check!
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I'm so happy to see that we talk about your work in France, being french myself. 🎉
Congratulations Wim!! keep up the great work!!.
Metronome marks by the composer are as much a part of their intention as the pitches and durations of notes and all of the expression indications. I have the feeling that the reason they don't check to see if the "single-beat performances" match the composers' metronome marks is because you have to have some musical competence to test that.
@@dorette-hi4j I doubt a musical illiterate could do the calculations for any written piece of music. Though many a musical illiterate has expressed an opinion about the discoveries of Wim Winters and his colleagues. I doubt anyone believes music and mathematics are "exactly the same thing." Though when you are talking about the measurement of anything mathematics is the means of making a measurement. Beethoven, Chopin, anyone who has ever put a note of music on a page in measured notation or put a metronome mark on a piece of music is using mathematics to make their intentions as clear as they can be made. You make music using the indications they left, ALL OF THE INDICATIONS THEY LEFT. To not respect those is to violate their intentions.
Hello there you cute fraud
@@dorette-hi4j "Modify". Sure. Cut it by a third, as most SBP adherents do? That's the tempo equivalent of changing the key!
When you speed up a recording of a piano, you also speed up the decay of the strings ringing out. When you speed up actual playing, you don't. You can tell that Lang Lang's recording is not speed up, but the Radio France recording, and your recording at the beginning, definetely you can tell they are sped up.
Congratulations, finally more and more people are starting to understand and appreciate your perspective! Keep up the good work😊
Thanks Win, and just keep going! 🥂
Thanks for your nice words about my work, Wim, but why do you say I didn't check the recording at the end of my radio segment?
Good job wim! Keep fighting
Love you, man!🙌🏼🙌🏼
At last! Bravississimo!!!
Wim’s name has really gone global. BTW, I can’t wait to buy your book.
Same 😊
Congratulations!
Gefeliciteerd Wim, ga zo door a.u.b.
I smile for you, I'm happy for you. This doesn't surprise me at all. As the thumbnail says, it's inevitable.
Personally, I can't wait for a time where we can debate anything else other than Tempo. Maybe in ten years... I understand the need to hammer it on and on, I'm not complaining. But boy, did I fell off this wagon a while ago...
Really looking forward for the book, and the symphonies.
Wow amazing video!
A french radio cant make you world famous. Probably not even french famous. This channel made you way more than any radio could.
Thank you Wim
Clear as always. Keep your battle against that meaningless speed!
Love this ‘ Old Skool’ vid Wim! ⭐🙂❤🙏🏼
Nice video as always! I hope that your videos can make people use their brain and see the inconsistency of modern tempo reading.
today France, tomorrow le monde 🌎
YES, YES, YES!!!
Never give up, Wim!
Esto es genial!
Great Wim❤🎉
I commend the extensive musicological research and effort behind your work, albeit I occasionally find myself at odds with its conclusions. While the adage 'slow and steady wins the race' holds true in many contexts, "tempo" is not one of them. I believe RUclips's algorithm could use some refinement, as your videos continue to be recommended to me.
The recording featured in the program is a performance available on RUclips on the "Piano Etudes" channel titled "Czerny Etude op.299 n.5 REAL TEMPO!!!"
And the reason why the sound is, as you called it, "plasticky and dry” is because it is performed on a digital piano, not because it was in any way accelerated or edited (as you try to suggest).
And I’m quite sure you’re already familiar with this pianist and his recordings since links to them have been posted many times by me and others in the comments under various videos on this channel.
The same goes for the issue of speed of 14 or 15 notes a second which, despite the multitude of given examples, you still obdurately claim to be impossible.
Come on! The instrument doesn’t even have a weighted action. Any tranquil regard into the video reveals it. And the speed is still under what is required, so it’s not honest to say that it’s in tempo.
@@dorette-hi4j Just as fast is not the same than at the tempo required. An expert, against a beginner, should be able to reach even a higher speed. I don’t believe that the pianos, Viennese or otherwise, were as featherweight. In a serious study of the issue, the weighting should be discussed. And performances of the studies at tempo should be produced.
@@AlbertoSegovia. Good digital pianos do have weighted keys.
To get as close to the feeling of an acoustic piano as possible.
And why should you be able to play faster than the m.m?
Is it not enough to play a very fast piece in tempo?
@@dorette-hi4j In any case, this digital piano should be heavier than the old Viennese instruments. The average touch weight for a piano produced around 1839 is from 66 to 76 grams; 1833, around 55g on average. Around 25 year younger pianos are 43 grams. But, I should not take haste: what does the old Viennese piano have to do with the purpose and playability of the etudes?
@@olofstroander7745”The faster the more admirable?” Isn’t that the answer?Why should people only play these studies slower than the metronome mark? What should the motivation be to finally do it?
Nice!!
Whole beat metronome practice is also more accurate - consider how many notes are played between the beats and the counting for 1 and 2 or 1 ah and ah 2 with shorter note values.
3:51 Alfred Adler believed that the hallmark of neurotic thought is the phrase "yes, but". I guess that being a staunch defender of single beat tends to make people a little bit neurotic.
Looking forward to the 9th
Mr. Winters, I admit having a strong resistance and perhaps even a bias against the double beat theory you propose, but it is undeniable that Beethoven's symphonies with your tempo reconstruction sound much more comprehensible and digestible.
Particularly, this passage from the ninth symphony featured in the end of the video sounds simply wonderful, thank you for the recordings.
All the best! 😁
Imagine being the most dexterious pianist in the world, and spending your whole life trying to perform a beginners etude up to speed and still fail!!! Keep up the good fight Wim! Common sense will win in the end!
"The most dexterous pianists in the world" can play this easily. Maybe even sight read it.
Formidable!
I recall some new music piece I learned on recorder which had a passage with 16th notes which should be "as fast as possible" After month of practice I ended up at MM=180 for 1/4 notes. I think that was some physical limit I hit.
The anonymous internet pianist seems to play on a digital piano, there you can adjust the tempo of your recording without having sound distortions
Yeah, it's 100% a digital piano. However, you can actually at least hear the pianists fingernails hitting the keys and the typical thumpy noises that digital piano keys make so it's still an "analog" recording in that sense. So maybe they did really play it. It just seems extremely weird. Those scales are way too even and it just sounds like a robotic MIDI file without any semblance of human expression. Maybe the "pianist" in question added those extra noises to make it sound authentic but I might probably just think too far into it, haha.
@@Skryabinist Not at all. The elements you mentioned are chief among those considered by producers of recorded music
@@dorette-hi4j Cool! And the pianist makes it look so easy and natural too. As for the roboticness I mentioned, that's pretty much how these etudes are meant to be played and I really have to give some kudos for the performer on that. It's not something that just anyone can do. The digital piano sound and not so great recording equipment certainly add to that MIDI impression, haha!
The Beethoven at the end of the video almost sounded like a folksong, it was so natural.
We shouldn't presume your interpretation is right either. You know everything about Beethoven, do you?@@dorette-hi4j
You're a coward, hiding behind other people's opinions. You don't even use your name, despicable what you do.@@dorette-hi4j
@@dorette-hi4j Are you still here?
How do you explain wax candle recordings of composers like Brahms playing his Hungarian Dance No.1 at full tempo? Or pupils of great composers such as Liszt in the 1940s and 50s playing the pieces in tempo like today?
Yep, exactly.
He is just being delusional and can't play it that fast himself
I unsubscribed to your channel a few years ago, but now that you're famous, I decided to re-subscribe.
Fascinating, and thank you for sharing! I agree that the 'hyperspeed' keyboard played at the end of the Radio France segment doesn't sound right. In fact, it sounds a bit too mechanical. In Lang Lang's recording, as fast as he's playing, it is definitely not mechanical/metronomic; you can hear some slight variation in note durations, which of course retains the humanity in the phrasing. Anyway, wonderfully done, cheers!
The excerpt sounds like it has been quantised. Apart from not meeting the purported tempo it is mechanical. Nowadays, without live performance ANYTHING can be played slowly into a sequencer then sped up - and don't forget the 99% of vocalists that use autotune to correct their singing pitch.
That high-speed interpretation is a joke! Nobody seriously plays music at that tempo, unless it's for a cartoon.
Or for practice, which is what it's for. The Czerny etudes are etudes. Not concert etudes. They are meant to improve your technique, not sound good.
Not world famous (yet!) but such a massive step to being taken seriously
@@dorette-hi4j It reflects the fact that this is in the minds of musicologists
What I hate is the bias that Double beat is twice as slow, deux fois moins vite. The first time i heard about double beat it was presented to me that way, which I rejected with double thought. Watching your videos, I got to understand that in many cases what I hear (and often play) is already 20 % to 30 % slower than the composers metronome marks and that it just takes another 20% to 30 % slower to get to double beat. I wish double beat was presented as "the theory in which Beethoven is played 25 % slower than what you are used to hearing".
That isn't what "double" means, and it goes against the argument I often hear on double-beat that it came from how the metronome is meant to be used (which has been conclusively debunked by looking at historical sources on the usage of the metronome, including by Malzel himself, which can be found in the Fafner document)
@@dorette-hi4j "But modern performances of his symphonies are often at or very close to his metronome speeds". A few come close. Most do not, even if they might be a little faster than recent generations. But are they really?
@@dorette-hi4j You again?
So when and why did we switch from whole beat to single beat? Is there a video you can link me to where you discuss this switchover?
We never did.
To add to my previous comment. Let s forget about double and whole beat. Just go to youtube and listen to all the possible recording of Rameau piece : les sauvages and keep the one by Beatrice Martin for the end of the session. I just discovered this version a few days ago and it was the first time that i can appreciate this piece. The accents and articulation are all there The tempo is much slower. Just be curious and do it. Why so many peoples are seeing music as a sport competion ? And Yes this recording is a midi one ! Sorry
@@dorette-hi4j Variety isn't the point. The whole WBMP discussion began with trying to make sense of the insanely fast metronome markings left by composers and performers of the early 19th century. Play the music however you want, listen to what you like. But if we are to take the metronome markings of Chopin and Beethoven and Schumann and others seriously (and you may look past them, if you wish, but then why participate in this discussion?), then an explanation for those speeds that virtually no one has ever consistently adhered to, even the single-beaters, is sorely missing outside WBMP. Single-beaters are not single-beaters, they are mostly 2/3 beaters. Why?
@@dorette-hi4j You talk a lot but say little. You are quick to denigrate, call names, and belittle. But you offer nothing to solve the real riddle. The current practices of classical music are irrelevant. You keep pointing to them, but they are far, far off from the MM markings in virtually every case, and have been for as far as recording go back. The few that come close are remarkable in their scarcity. They prove nothing.
Who is this ?
0:38 - According to *some* (or even most) musicologists. Not all. ;)
This is great news for Music!
Every note needs to be heard and when things are too fast you cannot appreciate this. So thanks for the double beat theory.
That's not necessarily true. Unique effects are made when notes are played fast.
The thing that causes me to take WBMP seriously is the fact that the MM markings of the early and mid-19th century skew exclusively on the side of very fast. So fast that no one, really, is a single-beater, or ever has been, in the history of this music. The few outliers prove the rule - those speeds are either unattainable or, even if playable, musically unsatisfying. So Beethoven, in his brilliant mind, could hear the notes, construct the melodies, develop the harmonies, probe the universe, and miss his desired tempo (he heard one in his head!) by 30%? I think not.
If metronomes were inaccurate, or brilliant composers didn't know how to use them, why did that not lead to some MM markings considered very slow? Also, most of the fine articulation markings of Chopin, especially, and Beethoven and Schumann, and others, are rendered pointless at the MM speeds. Why bother with those notations if they would be lost in the rush of notes?
The performance tradition has been a compromise of sorts. But the existence of that compromise does not answer the question: why were those markings so near universally insanely fast, and why have they also almost as universally been ignored in performance?
@@dorette-hi4j Not surprised by your final comment. You can singularly incapable of having a civil conversation without being negative.
There is no SB performance tradition. At all. 2/3 SB more like. The most compelling aspect of true, consistent SB performances is their scarcity.
@@dorette-hi4j Sigh. Then we're back to the top. No one is adhering to those MM markings. No tradition of it, as you confirm. Why?
@@dorette-hi4j The "why?" was rhetorical. I don't expect you to answer because there is no answer. It remains a mystery if one rejects WBMP. But if you must: Performances that are at or around - say within 5% plus or minus - of the MM marking given by the composer. No one does it, so it's hard to say.
I KNOW no one does it because if performers were approaching or exceeding those speeds with any regularity there would not have been decades and decades of speculation on the topic. And JE Gardiner's Beethoven Symphony performances at those tempos would not be noteworthy, so to speak. You cannot provide any more insight than you already have, if your many, many, maaaaany comments in this thread are anything to judge by. Or have you been holding out on us?
@@dorette-hi4j You are confused. I am not defending WBMP. I have put forth no arguments in favor. I merely keep asking the question. You are so busy debunking you don't notice how you rattle on. Your picking a few examples off the top of your head you "think" are "close" proves nothing. We already agreed earlier there is no real tradition of performing at those speeds. Not just Beethoven, but the whole panoply of works from Mozart through Schumann, operas, symphonic, piano and chamber music. Performing at those speeds is something people notice because they are noticeably faster than what we usually hear.
My point all along was debunking WBMP is not proof of any other thesis.
So again, back to the top.
@@dorette-hi4j OK
Why is it that if you add up the lengths of older performances that they come out much faster that they would according to you theory? they come out much closer to our modern timings, according to our standard reading of the tempo.
I consider this theory as quite plausible even if I m can t now be totally convinced. Maybe there was no real consensus in old days... Because sometime - quite often - half the usual today spread seems relevant and sometime no. The major coherent thing is about ternary and binary. I will be more precise in a further comment
Thanks, really wonderful that your important and TRUE insight is being recognized. But... Please try to explain the point in the beginning, and talk around the point less!
Your recherche results are really compelling and I tend to be convinced. It is a pity that no composer or musicologist or pedagogue, just said very clearly: "hey when you see "blanche"=108, just count every other click and not every single click", even if in other videos, you have shown documentation leading to this conclusion. The question I have is why the composer, did not chose to do as the physicists do and then write "blanche"=54, showing that the only conclusion modern musicians can deduct is that an "allegro con brio" as in your example, was counted every other click for a beat?. They would then have to unequivocally arrive at the conclusion that composers were counting whole beats? It is just an honest question and not to create a controversy. It was because the metronome made the sound with each click, or other explanation? Thank you for these great and passionate videos. Looking forward for the book.
it's obvious, because there are too many evidences (and papers by musicologists) that demonstrates that the actual tempi is not that written or the half. You can see it by the concert's durations in the epoch (the programs, the reviews etc) or just by listening. Wim is proving (correctly) that the full tempo of the song is ridiculous, but he doesn't see his own mistake, that his half tempo is also ridiculous. Beethoven 5th video is the best example. And the worst is that he is not he inventor of this concept. Un saludo.
The only measurement that changes when I listen to your channel is my blood-pressure - and more than anything it has to do with your messianic verve in selling what is a terrible and more importantly unmusical idea. All because, Wim, many might suspect you are attempting to convert a technical weakness of yours into a virtue.
@@dorette-hi4j Perhaps I'm not being too charitable. Or maybe, this is all a ruse to pump up his algorithms with such outlandish ideas.
*_"глупани су пуни амбиција, жеља а мудраци и немају их, они траже или знају пут за срећу"_*
*_"они траже или знају пут за срећу но срећни нису"_*
‘World Infamous’ would be more like it-his tempo modifications are often so slow & lifeless as to be laughable
I lost it when he butchered the 3rd movement of the Tempest Sonata. More like breeze than tempest. Amusing.
I'm happy about this development! Maybe, in a hundred years, this will be accepted.
It's 2024 Wim, your name being mentioned in a short radio segment doesn't make you famous
Self-irony has been a common rhetoric device in western culture for centuries. Until 2024 AFAICS.
@@dizdirasamira Maybe the title was tongue in cheek but he still calls it a “milestone” in the video. The real achievement is of course having a yt channel with more than 8 million total views
Do you know irony or it's just a concept that is too difficult for you to understand?
@@Alix777. What is an ”irony”?
Great work. The fact the musicologist said you need to take the MM with a grain of salt is ridiculous…can’t take this person seriously. It’s just a lame excuse for failure to reach those speeds.
Composers wrote EXACT MM for a reason and they are important if you want to play it authentically. If you can’t match the speed…something is very VERY wrong.
Hipsters ignoring the facts is laughable.
And the Czerny by that anonymous pianist is most likely sped up. Easy to fake it on a radio. Show it on camera or in a concert hall. See if the robotic body movement is as sped up as the music.
And I also find it peculiar that musicality is thrown in the trash with these idiotic fast recordings. Even Czerny would say….musicality should be maintained at all times. Not turn it into a childrens cartoon chase.
To be fair many composers did find it difficult to metronomise their own works. This was the case with Wagner, Brahms, Max Reger among others. Chopin stopped giving metronome marks to his nocturnes and mazurki after op. 27 or so and Moscheles and Czerny often gave a wide range of different tempi to movements of Beethoven sonatas in their numerous editions. Thus, there are good reasons to take metronome marks with a grain of salt
@@johnericsson5286 To be even more fair. I am sure composers were contemplating a ((slightly) faster or slower tempo for a piece. As Wim Winters often says tempo changes a piece significantly. And that they didn’t give tempo indications at all for certain pieces or by certain composers is a non argument. For many compositions (thousands) we DID get an exact MM. And we can be 100 % certain they gave us a tempo that was playable in 100 % of the times. They certainly wouldn’t have trouble finding a playable tempo. They would have trouble finding a tempo that gave the right karakter to the piece.
So yes MM marks are very important if you want to play it the way a composer had in mind. If you decide to play it faster or slower that is certainly the musicians choice and prerogative. But it would not be as authentic a performance as when one would stick to the tempo (if we know the MM mark that was given).
So again taking MM’s with a grain of salt is a lame excuse for not being able to play it at the recommended tempo by the original composers.
@@solesius no, we can’t be 100% certain that all metronome markings that composers provided are achievable. György Sándor said Bartók had an inaccurate metronome, thus too high speed. How can you be sure that the same didn’t happen with Beethoven, Chopin, Schuman etc? WW avoids to answer this question by saying that “they were not stupid,” but I’m afraid that great musicians back then also thought some composers’ metronome had problems. Of course you can’t rely on all metronome markings on printed editions, the editor of the complete edition of Bartók said “note values in the metronome markings were repeatedly printed wrong,” in editions published in his lifetime. But our great scholar WW doesn’t believe it.
@@dorette-hi4j Even in 1894, an article in the Programme of Boston Symphony Orchestra says "the ordinary metronome of commerce is a rather cheaply made machine and, oftener than not, inaccurate." Our WW wouldn't want to believe it!
This is clearly a midi recording on a tempo bosster + this is no more music. If all the music would sound like that , i would turn to another hobby and go i to... jogging lol
Still this is not sounding human playing to me. RUclips is full of virtual planists who are uploading thousand of midi recording of czerny and others and it must be very frustrating for real musicien to hear this machinery music. Listen to Wim example at the begining of this video...everything is there. Human versus machin
@@clemenceroussel3887well long time ago WW was proclaiming that the first etude of Czerny is impossible to play-which he still insists. Somebody spent his time to show WW while metronome is ticking. Our great scholar WW commented on the video, asking where’s the next etude. After the video, he still claims it’s impossible to play. I asked him about it and he said it was done by glissando (spoiler alerts: it wasn’t!). Well even if one plays Czerny’s etudes in front of him, I don’t think he would accept it!
@@minkyukim0204 And of course you played 299/2 at tempo, and I really hope that got him to admit that that piece (at the very least that one) is possible at tempo
@@wilh3lmmusic well apparently I’m a superhuman! And I don’t think he will admit it.
@@dorette-hi4j what a great scholar he is!!